JKD Concepts

[Tireces]

Just out of curiousity, what does the "JKD concepts" approach retain from the core system bruce created? Is the straight lead still there? And the stance? Not much of a thread, but I figured we could use a real thread discussing the art here, hasnt been an active one in a while.

[Bigfoot]

What system?

Jeet Kune Do is a philosophy, a way of using your own attributes to best facilitate a defence.

[thiaboxr2]

What I see in jeet Kune Do that still exists is what everyone already heard before which is....Use every style as your style, use every technique as your technique. keep what is usefull, discard what is not.

Concepts, theories, philosophy, there is no limitation as to how to attack or defend.

[Tireces]

Originally posted by Bigfoot
What system?

Jeet Kune Do is a philosophy, a way of using your own attributes to best facilitate a defence.

No, it isn't just that. Bruce actually taught people a way of fighting. Philosophy alone isn't gonna get you anywhere. This system is remarkable because of its cutting away of excess aspects of martial arts, so that one can focus in on what works best, but maintaining completeness. It serves as an excellent set of roots for someone to work with, and as a sort of guide to what one's own repertoire should be like. This art was designed to apply JKD's many ideas to its fighting as optimally as possible, most importantly, of course, the "intercepting fist" its named for. You cannot just train in ANY art and claim you are doing jeet kune do, because not all arts are very good at intercepting, let alone even stressing it in fighting. So how can you call what you do "the way of the intercepting fist" when theres no intercepting fist? Too many people look at Bruce's teaching of non-limitation and disregard everything else he wrote and compiled in his diverse experiences. I'm hoping Yoda finds his way to this thread, because I saw a picture of him and Dan Inosanto, so I'm guessing he's got SOME experience with JKD concepts since, y'know, he's spent some time with its head honcho. :D

[Bigfoot]

Originally posted by Tireces
This system is remarkable because of its cutting away of excess aspects of martial arts, so that one can focus in on what works best, but maintaining completeness. :D

How can someone else tell you what is going to work best for you? To train JKD, one has to have experience, otherwise, one cannot cut out what doesn't work for oneself.

JKD is not a style, it is a way of training, it is a way of understanding yourself and your strengths and weaknesses. That is what makes JKD so great. But to utilize JKD, you have to have a base. You have to have a strong base to chisel away from, or you will fall on your face in time.

[thiaboxr2]

What Bigfoot was trying to say was that Bruce Lee was pointing out that one style alone never had all the answers to martial arts. So he devised a WAY of teaching people to use what works for them. Yes there are some techniques that Bruce did teach his students, but that was not his goal.
He wanted his students to think for themselves, react naturally to any attack or defense without a set way of blocking or punching. He was showing them that they had a whole arsenal of techniques and that they were not limited in their way.
With the knowledge that bruce attained, he started teaching it to whom ever wanted to learn. He never had a name for it. So he called it Jeet Kune Do- The Way Of The Intercepting Fist.

It can be misinterpreted as a style. Many schools teach it as one. But it is concepts and theories, philosophies, lessons for practicing YOUR martial arts, Not Bruce Lee's.

Bruce Lee's JKD was taylored for him. Your JKD is yours. There will be simularities. But it will not be the same JKD as Bruce's.

As Bruce Lee say'd, Its just a name, do not fuss over it.;)

[Tireces]

I didnt say someone else tells you what works best. But you dont add in things that dont, and the core system of JKD is designed to work well for everyone. It's a foundation. If you think JKD is simply something you read in a book, and then no matter what you train in, it is JKD, you're incorrect. Not every art stresses the things Bruce did. Now please, if you do not have any input on the topic of this thread, do not facilitate a giant argument. Thanks.

[YODA]

Originally posted by Tireces
I didnt say someone else tells you what works best. But you dont add in things that dont, and the core system of JKD is designed to work well for everyone. It's a foundation. If you think JKD is simply something you read in a book, and then no matter what you train in, it is JKD, you're incorrect. Not every art stresses the things Bruce did. Now please, if you do not have any input on the topic of this thread, do not facilitate a giant argument. Thanks.

Very well said!

It amazes me how many people think ther'ye doing JKD just because they read Tao of JKD then took bits from a bunch of martial arts and bolted them together.

Bruce Lee's personal teaching - what he actually taught his students - is the core that the JKD process is built on. If you don't have a stong foundation and understanding of that core - and have it from training with an Instructor in it just like any other art - then you may be a great martial artist but you are NOT doing JKD - at best you are doing something "inspired by" JKD. Many are in fact "playing at" JKD.

[Tireces]

Yes but what about the actual topic? I am trying to investigate the differences between the two general teaching approaches of JFJKD, and JKD concepts, it was other people who kinda decided to come in and turn this into a debate on the nature of jeet kune do.:p

[YODA]

The difference is simple in theory - one is a part of the other.

In practice, however, it doesn't usually work out that way. JKDC people who work with and use Jun Fan GF as their core seem to be well in the minority. No judgements being made here either way - just an observation.

[Tireces]

Yes, thats something I've turned up in a lot of my searching. So many concepts schools seem to be really big on boxing, muay thai, BJJ, FMA, but I see very little (or nothing, in some cases) mentioned of the core system, so I was wondering how much is actually taught of it.

[SteveJKDUK]

I would say the proportion of Bruce's core system still remains in a lot of the different JKD schools out there. However, the specific amount will depend on the individual school.

I am currently learning JKD under the Magda Institute, so if I really really had to classify myself, then I would say I'm a "Concepts" guy because I am still under the Inosanto lineage. If I exclude the Kali and Silat for simplicitys sake, the JKD I train in seems pretty similar to what I've read in the "Tao of JKD" and "Commentaries on the Martial Way." To me, the only noticable differences is that we utilise more Muay Thai ie. we elbow "Thai fashion" and use Thai round kicks. I also believe instructors like Chris Kent and Tim Tackett have kept a lot of Bruce's original core as their own JKD.

If we instructors such as Paul Vunak, Burton Richardson etc, they are also Concepts guys, but have swtiched their emphasis towards other things ie. less WC trapping etc. This is still JKD because the concepts are still there.

It really is comparing a cup of tea with milk and another cuppa tea with less milk and more sugar. At the end of the day, the drink is the same! I can't remember where I read that, so if I've nicked the phrase off someone, then I apologise!

Another misconception I see is that a lot of people define JKD as is "finding what works for you." Then I would hear someone say they claim to know JKD just because they've followed that single qoute and combined two arts together, such as Karate and Aikido. To me, thats just cross-training without the concepts in mind. Training in Karate on a Wednesday and Aikido on a Friday does not make u you a JKD man.

[Tireces]

Cass has done a few seminars at my school, and I think he's got the right idea incorporating Silat, a lot of it works very well right out of JKD's stance. I wasn't very good at it, though thats likely in part due to the fact that I was training with mostly grown men at the age of 16 or so. My Sifu was kind of put off when he identified some Silat stance as "the best stance to fight from" or something, but I'm sure that wasnt what he meant.

[LS]

in a perfect world, there shouldn't be a difference in JF or JKD concepts. Yoda already shed light on this, but to add to it Dan did say something along the lines, for one to do JKd concepts one must have knowledge in the original material . . JKD concepts = concepts of JKD ... what are concepts of JKD?? [and no i'm not referring just to the absorb, reject , add, stuff <although important there's more to the totality of JKD> ]

[Tireces]

I think a good bit of reading on the subject of working other arts into JKD can be foundin the opening of the Jun Fan/Jeet Kune Do textbook. Its a very long bit, so I can't really quote it here, but basically, it says, that without a "common thread", you are just combining things that don't mix, like two elements that will never bond to form a compound.

[inosanto1]

Bruce started in Wing Chun, that is the base art purely because of it's directness. When he went to the states he modified it.

If you look at the students from the early days you can see the progression.

The difference between JFJKD and JKD Crosstraining is that the JFJKD schools have stayed with what they were left with when bruce died, Dan and the rest were leftwith Bruces ideals for the future of JKD

[teacher]

Not sure if this will add a lot Tireces but I feel there are some core principles and techniques that should be there if it is going to be JKD.
For example the pendulum footwork to train kicking from the front foot. A training tool I know but a very distinctive one backing up the principle of nearest weapon to nearest target.

[LS]

the pendulum seems like a lost tool for a lot of JKD schools out there.

[AndyD]

Try the pendulum footwork with a grappler and you leave yourself wide open for the takedown.

[DeeTee]

It's horses for courses. A time and a place for everything.

[LS]

Originally posted by AndyD
Try the pendulum footwork with a grappler and you leave yourself wide open for the takedown.

something to consider. thanks

[teacher]

There's a risk with any technique.
What do you use in the long range AndyD?
Honestly curious here, do you feel it's better to just close the gap and clinch?

[Tireces]

That what puzzled me too, just about any committed attack leaves you "open for a takedown", especially kicks. The whole point is to hit the guy so that he cant just shrug it off and take you down, or that he's forced to defend against the attack instead of taking you down. The pendulum footwork makes kicks fast and strong, moreso than a plain old standing kick or a much slower "step in". How else do you intend to bridge long gaps with a kick? Slowly making your way in for a standing one? What happened to direct, nontelegraphic motion?

[AndyD]

Don't get me wrong, I used to be a big fan of the pendulum kick. But as I progressed I came to realise things that were more effective and contained less risk. There are many things that I used to do which I now no longer do or have modified - so is the way with JKD.

As for using it to close the gap, in my experience the gap is usually closed for you - otherwise you wouldn't/shouldn't be fighting. Naturally, there are exceptions to any rule and a pendulum kick could work but there is a lot of commitment and you are very vunerable even to a non grappler.

As for closing the gap to clinch, I don't advocate that as his buddies are gonna use your head and kidneys for puching practice while your standing up and for football practice when your on the ground.

[teacher]

"in my experience the gap is usually closed for you"

Very true. Your not a big fan of the clinch either.
You've got me thinking now....

Thai round kick to the legs to drop him?
Combination hand techniques?

[AndyD]

I'm not a fan of the clinch in terms of a tactic for the reasons I pointed out. However, it is important to know how to fight when he has you in some sort of clinch - bearing in mind that the clinch on the street will consist of at least one guy grabbing on you and/or your clothing and hitting you.

As for what techniques I would use that depends so much on the situation that I couldn't rule anything out - but some tools are generally more usefull than others.

[SteveJKDUK]

Not really an attack, but a pendulum backwards can be good to get yourself out of trouble sometimes!! :D