Punching Power V2.0

[nightcrawlerEX]

This is V2.0 of my punching power article. It is updated in more detail and I have added quotes. These ideas may be wrong but they are what worked for me.

Puncing Power V2.0

Most people think that to have alot of power in your punch you need to sacrifice speed and bulk up your arms. In my oppinion this is not true, you dont have to sacrifica any speed or strength.

Here are my thoughts (May be wrong, But Worked for me)

Speed = Power

Think about it, What would you rather get hit by? a tennis ball going at a slow speed or one going at a high speed?

Therefore any hit you do, if it is fast enough is going to be hard. The Power of your punch is also effected by the force behind the target. So if you are doing a punch and you are verry muscular then the punch will probably be very hard. But you are losing alot of power just by hitting with your arm. You need to put your whole hip into it and use your whole body behind the punch (without leaning foward too much) use your body like a corkscrew and twist while pushing the shoulder doing the punch foward while pulling the other shoulder backward.

Weight training can affect your punching but there are differences in types of strengths gained by weight training.

You have both Fast and Slow twich muscle fibres. By training slow twich muscles you are gaining Strength for slow movements. By training the fast twich fibres you are gaining strength for fast movements (punching).

Therefore by training your fast twich muscle fibres you are gaining strength for fast movements like punching.

Stretching your arms after doing weights is good and it increases the range of motion for the muscles stretched. If you are stretching remember to stretch the opposite muscle group as well (both tricep and bicep).

Power = Strength & Speed

By combining a good technique and the right type of weight training you can greatly increase your punching power and speed.

There are 3 stages of a punch (My Thoughts)

1. The throwing of the punch (The movement of the body and the punch moving toward the target)

2. The inch Power (Where your arm is almost fully extended)

3. The Follow Through (Pushing Through the target for extra power)

In My oppinion the best time for a punch to make contact is during the second stage (when the arm is almost fully extended) beacuse this is the stage of the punch when the most resistance is requred to stop the punch (From the Bag or Enemy) and the least force is required by you to complete the punch. This is also the time of the punch when the most power is in the punch. "Also w/ a good power punch, your front foot should land slightly after your punch. This will keep the kinetic energy from splitting into two different directions. " - Checkhands (30/dec/05)

Also snap the punch at the right moment. It's hard to explain so I won't cover it here but you should ask your instructor in how to add the 'snap to your punch'. Remember the snap is good but dont bend your wrist to punch, it loses power and hurts beacuse the impact will be absorbed at the wrist, also your wrist can be bent back. Most people when learning to punch have this problem due to lack of strength in the wrists but it can be fixed with various exercises (knuckle pushups, weights, or just practice)

Although a punch is mostly a upper body movement, it is affected by the movement and weight distribution of your legs. A wide stance increases balance and power in your punch but if the stance is too wide it can decrease your mobility and movement speed. Most martial arts have good stances to deploy a punch so just adopt your normal fighting/sparring stance and you should be fine.

Being to tense when about to deploy a punch can be a bad thing. To move 'any' part of your body involves contractions and relaxation. Therefore to move your arm your tricep must contract and your bicep must relax. If your bicep is too tense when doing a punch your tricep must work harder to move your arm and so on. (note: you DONT only use the tricep for punching, but it is a big part of the punch)

The kihap is also an important aspect of the punch.

"Very often in different Martial Arts you find a loud exhalation. This is a good way for beginners to focus on their breathing and for learning the correct breathing rhythm. But experienced students should use this loud exhalation during breathing excercises only. During sparring or a real fight this is no good idea, as an opponent could use this as a hint for best time to attack. During inhalation no fast response is possible, also a hit has more effect. So during sparring the exhalation should be unhearable, but nonetheless correctly and forcefully.

A very forceful breathing technique is the Kihap, a loud cry. It is important that the Kihap is from the stomach not your vocal chord. Often you could find students (even high graduated) who use their vocal chord too much for Kihap. This is not very good for your vocal chord and even not very effectful. A correctly done Kihap could have the following effects:




Fighting your own fear.
Get more power into your technique.
Maybe frighten an opponent.
Makes you less injurable,


" -Klaus Steinberger (http://www.bl.physik.tu-muenchen.de/~k2/budo_english/tkd/node8.html)

Finally, many martial arts have a different technique when punching and they "all" work. But to get the most of the punch you should follow boxing's example and don't start the punch too far back beacuse you are loosing speed for the punch and it takes more energy to deploy it.


Thanx,
NightcrawlerEX

P.S. Thank you to Checkhands, Developing & Shrukin89 for commenting on the original article


Please feel free to post comments, discredit anything, add your own oppinions.

[freak]

hey thanks for the post...very informative

[S.I.D]

Hey nightcrawlerEX, nice article :)

ya speed = power but it also differs with punching hand, ur rear punch has more power coz it includes hip movement compared to ur lead punch which has very less hip moment and is nontelegrafic most of the time. (correct me if i am wrong)

i have 1 Q, does plyometric exercises strengthen fast twich fibres ?

[nightcrawlerEX]

Hey nightcrawlerEX, nice article :)

ya speed = power but it also differs with punching hand, ur rear punch has more power coz it includes hip movement compared to ur lead punch which has very less hip moment and is nontelegrafic most of the time. (correct me if i am wrong)

True, but you can learn to use your hip movement for the lead punch.


i have 1 Q, does plyometric exercises strengthen fast twich fibres ?

I don't know what plyometric exercises are :bang:
But id assume so if you didnt do them verry slow

[Shrukin89]

That is very detailed I like it a lot :D

In my opinion tho that Speed (X) and Power (Y) can all vary.
A big big musclular guy with bulky arms with slow twitch muscles. May have a lot of power, but not punch very fast.

The power determines of how much weight is behind the punch delivered from all of your body.

The speed does not necessarily mean the faster you punch the more power you get. The speed may be there but the depending on the weight that's behind following through or the penetration of it may be weaker, than the slower punch that delievers a powerful blow from the big big guy.


What would seem to get a lot more power, from two objects as an example?:

Both objects are falling from the sky, Both objects weigh differently and falling at the same speed. Which object will seem to have more power when you catch it?


The heavier the object the more likely that the object will take you more time to stop it, because you need to have a higher effort to stop the weight that's behind the heavier object to stop it.


it could also work differently
Say if you had a soft object and a hard object falling from the sky but the harder object is falling from the sky slower than the softer one. All weighing the same. Which will penetrate the ground more?

All depends on the PSI, Pressure per square inch.
The harder object may penetrate the ground harder even when it was falling slower, than the softer but faster object.


You can put it into all sorts of ways but it's not regardless that Power will always equal Speed.

I love the rest of the thread nightcrawlerEX very nice explaination :D :D :D

[nightcrawlerEX]

thanx

[nightcrawlerEX]

Everything shrukin89 posted above is valid and true.

Force = Mass X Acceleration

Both Mass & Acceleration are factors that you must work on.

By putting your hip into your punch and having the correct technique your arm will not have to take the 'Recoil' from your punch, it will be taken by your body/legs. By doing this you are adding power to your punch and making it heavier.

[S.I.D]

I don't know what plyometric exercises are
But id assume so if you didnt do them verry slow
Plyometric exercises r the exercises which r done in fast pace like doing pushups in rapid motion w/o loosing form, and isometric exercises r done in steady forms like pushing the wall but this exercise only increases strength in muscle for the specific moment or posture.

Nice explanation shrukin89.
I have a small Q, can u explain me the pressure punching drill as practised in JKD and had came in Keith Pascal's free MA ezine, sme1 had posted it in Article section before. in case u dont remember i'll describe in short, its performed by punching on a punching pad hanged on a wall(not a fullpower punch) and after contact with the pad keeping the fist on the pad and concentrating on penetration or pushing power for 10 sec and then pulling back the hand, this is very effective drill even i have tried it.
can this thing be explained in terms of Force = Mass X Acceleration, proper form or is it just willpower or muscle memory thing.

[Shrukin89]

Nice explanation shrukin89.
I have a small Q, can u explain me the pressure punching drill as practised in JKD and had came in Keith Pascal's free MA ezine, sme1 had posted it in Article section before. in case u dont remember i'll describe in short, its performed by punching on a punching pad hanged on a wall(not a fullpower punch) and after contact with the pad keeping the fist on the pad and concentrating on penetration or pushing power for 10 sec and then pulling back the hand, this is very effective drill even i have tried it.
can this thing be explained in terms of Force = Mass X Acceleration, proper form or is it just willpower or muscle memory thing.

As a warning the drill in some parts not all parts that I have explained. May not be suitable for people with artheritis, broken fingers, sprained wrists, swollened knuckles, brittle bones, very sore muscles, stiff muscles, aches, body pains, muscle spasms, etc.

I would think that every power punch should be executed with full power, just with enough control so you won't hyper extend, twist your wrist, or crack your fingers. To keep in check make sure you straighten everything out (wrists parallel to your forearm), correct distance, correct posture, technique, balance, and with great focus.

Instead of a punching pad, use a punching bag. So you may not have to worry about getting holes in the drywall. :p

The Pushing Power for 10 seconds on the pad, you probably wouldn't have to do, just the reason why is that developing pushing power and holding for a long time wouldn't be considered a punch anymore, punches don't really involve any pushing at all, but more of breaking and follow through. Explosive wall pushups may be more effective because you are lifting your whole body mass fast, than pushing your body weight with your fist on the pad slowly and timely. Well I guess that wouldn't be true, since all of us are different in our style. I recommend to stick with what drill is more effective for you. If that drill is very effective, stick with it man :)

Power will build if you do more reps, full and fast, with explosive stength.
Even with punches, fast with explosiveness.

Or power can build by lifting heavy weights slowly, and repeative.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll tell you what I do for punching power ^_^.
Alright 1st what I always do is that I get into a low stance that I'm comfortable with. The power of your punches not only comes from the weight of your body, with the loud kiap, and the speed. It also comes from the control, balance, and technique of how you are excecuting it.

With a low center of gravity, it will take much more weight to move you and you'll have more balance and control, than it will if you punch standing up.

For girls they would be able to bend a little straighter than the guys. The center of gravity is lower on girls, which is a very good thing.

Now with that I have my low stance, my concentration is to visualize to follow through the object. To follow through the object you would need to picture something that is soft or the same object with relative ease to break through, think of yourself as an explosive ready to blow up this object to little bits. Staying relaxed and calm.

What this does is that increases your motivation, will, power, focus, speed, the tendency to shout a louder kiap, and etc. Remember to go right through, just like a knife through butter.

proper form or is it just willpower or muscle memory thing.

I will have to say all of it is needed to excecute a powerful punch with the included factors of Mass X Acceleration.

Proper form or technique is a must. The right given technique is an important note to get just the right punch. When you make a fist. Your thumb is resting on top of your index, and a bit covering your middle finger, when making an impact you (impact on first 2 fingers on the flat surface).

Muscle memory, deals of how much weight and reps that your muscles are used to. Adjusts the right explosiveness or (power) of the punch.

Willpower, to say to yourself that you have the courage to attempt punching through the object with power, speed, and all of the necessary requirements to go fully through.

I don't know if I explained everything but I'm glad you have asked S.I.D :)

I was wondering how thick is the punching pad? and what material it is?
If it's thick, wide, and long enough, you may be able to do full power on it. If it's not and you are a little worried about getting a hole through the wall, or making loud noise. You can lower the power I guess in your punch on the punching pad. lol

All different techniques will vary depending on which kind of style they are used to, whatever fits you the best, you can improve. I don't really wanna change your style but to maybe give it a lil touch up on the steps. :D

Hope everything goes well. I may have missed some important things, anyone can reply to correct me.

nightcrawlerEX has very nice detailed steps to maybe fill in some blanks that I have maybe.

[nightcrawlerEX]

I would like to ad some exercises for punching power...

The 1st Stage (Throwing the punch)

- Shadowboxing (also improves speed)
- Clap Pushups (You clap beacuse in order to clap you have to do them fast, it forces you to stop doing them slow)
- Shadowboxing With Weights

Inch Punch

- Inch punching your punching bag and using hip movements
- Doing Jump knuckle pushups with arms almost fully extended (25*) (Do this on a mat or something soft)

Pushing (Follow through)

- Pushups
- Start your Heavy Bag swinging (The Heavier the better) as it comes back to you before it reaces the peak of its swing use a pushing punch to push it away again (Some negative side affects could be...
if you do it too slow you dont improve the power for the actual punch
If you do it too much you could develop bad technique e.g. not snapping punch)
- Wall bags

feel free to comment

I am going to start reasearching for another article and I am thinking either...

- a Stretching Article outlining the types of flexibility, different stretches you can do, warming up, overstretching and its side affects, weight training and stretching

-Kicking Power article about kicking, kicking techniques, kicking power, and kicking speed

-Or both beacuse i think they both need each other to work

[ShorinRoots]

"Also w/ a good power punch, your front foot should land slightly after your punch. This will keep the kinetic energy from splitting into two different directions. " - Checkhands (30/dec/05)

Hey, informative article. I did have a question about the above quoted section, however. In my style of karate, great emphasis is placed on the need to "ground yourself" before executing a striking technique.

This means let your feet land first, then torque your hips and your upper body movements follow. Through practice and study of this technique, I have found it to afford me a great deal more power than if I try punch before my feet are grounded.

If I read this part of your article right, it seems to be contradicting the way I describe here. Could you talk a little more about this and outline the benefits? thanks.

[nightcrawlerEX]

Im not too sure about the whole kenetic energy thing, the best person to ask would be checkhands. I dont hink the is talking about raising your foot too high off the ground though.

However it is important to have a good balance etc. The best way ive found is to push off slightly with your back leg, shifting a little weight foward while movine hips etc.

[S.I.D]

The Pushing Power for 10 seconds on the pad, you probably wouldn't have to do, just the reason why is that developing pushing power and holding for a long time wouldn't be considered a punch anymore, punches don't really involve any pushing at all, but more of breaking and follow through. Explosive wall pushups may be more effective because you are lifting your whole body mass fast, than pushing your body weight with your fist on the pad slowly and timely.
Thanx Shrukin89 for replay, i dint say just pushing power but also penetration, same as ur concept of visualization but this thing done with wall, its an isometric exercise.
fk man i cant find that thread which had this drill :bang:, if u come across it give it a try atleast 1c.
can u plz explain me how to do Explosive wall pushups

I was wondering how thick is the punching pad? and what material it is?
If it's thick, wide, and long enough, you may be able to do full power on it. If it's not and you are a little worried about getting a hole through the wall, or making loud noise. You can lower the power I guess in your punch on the punching pad. lol
Punching pad is abt 40 X 30 X 15cms in dimension and the outer covering is of canvas donno abt inside but its prety hard to condition ur knuckles w/o damaging the wall :)

Nice exercises u got there nightcrawlerEX


Hey, informative article. I did have a question about the above quoted section, however. In my style of karate, great emphasis is placed on the need to "ground yourself" before executing a striking technique.
ya this concept is there in many styles like karate, Boxing, MuayThai, JKD. its important to have a firm support and balance to execute a powerfull punch, i cant use my hip properly while balancing on 1 leg u need both leg on ground to pivot ur hip on

comments r wellcome

[Shrukin89]

concentrating on penetration or pushing power for 10 sec and then pulling back the hand

Just the or that I caught from that. I've added a little what i've mentioned about concentrating on penetration too. ;)

But concentrating on penetration you don't really have to hold your hand out against the punching pad for 10 seconds then pull it back. You initially had put in concentration to it before excecuting, no need to put in concentration in after when you have done it.

What I mean by concentrating initially is that you are setting yourself so you can mentally picture of penetrating through this object. Once you feel ready, confident, then you can give it all of what you got into the punch.

But you can hold your hand out for maybe checking to see if you have any errors or mistakes that would need adjusting to that punch you made. Which is always good because you will adapt constantly.


can u plz explain me how to do Explosive wall pushups

Wall Pushups, is more of like a handstand pushup, with the help of the wall to support you up. What I mean by explosive is to burst with energy, when doing a pushup against the wall.

Punching pad is abt 40 X 30 X 15cms in dimension and the outer covering is of canvas donno abt inside but its prety hard to condition ur knuckles w/o damaging the wall :)

That's a fairly descent size. :)

[Yohan]

The 1st Stage (Throwing the punch)

- Shadowboxing (also improves speed)
- Clap Pushups (You clap beacuse in order to clap you have to do them fast, it forces you to stop doing them slow)
- Shadowboxing With Weights

Clap pushups are a plyometric exersize, and the explanation of it in this thread is bollocks. If you want the real deal, go to the H&F forum and search on plyometrics, clap pushups, and you will find a good explanation of why and how to do them.

Although a punch is mostly a upper body movement, it is affected by the movement and weight distribution of your legs. A wide stance increases balance and power in your punch but if the stance is too wide it can decrease your mobility and movement speed. Most martial arts have good stances to deploy a punch so just adopt your normal fighting/sparring stance and you should be fine.

If your punch power comes from your upper body, you are doing it WRONG no matter what style you are doing. Power from your punches should come from the ground to the hips to the shoulders, etc. I expect you are some karate folks, so its going to come from rotating the hips I expect.

A big big musclular guy with bulky arms with slow twitch muscles. May have a lot of power, but not punch very fast.

Just because a guy has big muscular arms doesn't mean he has slow twitch fibers. Go look at sprinters. They don't have teeny weeny chicken legs. They are the paramount of fast twitch muscle.

Wall Pushups, is more of like a handstand pushup, with the help of the wall to support you up. What I mean by explosive is to burst with energy, when doing a pushup against the wall.

If you can do an handstand clap-up, you are a badass!!!!

You guys are on the right track. Go check out the H%F forum to learn about the best ways to get routines and exercises that will help improve your performance in MA.

[Kea]

If you can do an handstand clap-up, you are a badass!!!!

LMAO.

Nice article, I might even print it out. I always thought about punching power as something that was made from not speed, or strength, but something else. You've open my perspective though.

[nightcrawlerEX]

Quote:
Although a punch is mostly a upper body movement, it is affected by the movement and weight distribution of your legs. A wide stance increases balance and power in your punch but if the stance is too wide it can decrease your mobility and movement speed. Most martial arts have good stances to deploy a punch so just adopt your normal fighting/sparring stance and you should be fine.


If your punch power comes from your upper body, you are doing it WRONG no matter what style you are doing. Power from your punches should come from the ground to the hips to the shoulders, etc. I expect you are some karate folks, so its going to come from rotating the hips I expect.

I said a punch is mostly upper body MOVEMENT (i didn't say it mostly comes from upper body)

[Yohan]

Nice article, I might even print it out. I always thought about punching power as something that was made from not speed, or strength, but something else. You've open my perspective though.

In the end, punching power doesn't come from speed, or strength, it comes from good technique. Being strong and fast make a huge difference though.

I said a punch is mostly upper body MOVEMENT (i didn't say it mostly comes from upper body)

Alright then.

[S.I.D]

guys chk this out
http://www.bodybuildingforyou.com/training-fitness/martial-arts-training.htm

the article name is
Punch Like a Jackhammer - Strength Training for Boxing and Martial Arts

[Skrom]

that site sucks, and so does the workout. i'm pretty sure the writer has little to no experience with martial arts.

[EaglePryde]

Force = Mass X Acceleration



I don't think that this is all. It refers to ordinary physiks. In my training, Mass is exchanged with inner energy, focused inside yourselfe to produce the force needed when hitting a target..Even Speed is increased through this.

Sry for my bad english. I'll try hard to make the best of what i can :)

[Shrukin89]

Just because a guy has big muscular arms doesn't mean he has slow twitch fibers. Go look at sprinters. They don't have teeny weeny chicken legs. They are the paramount of fast twitch muscle.

I didn't really mean "all" big muscular guys. I pointed it out as an example. There are most definately very very fast guys out there that are very large in muscle tones.


Hmmm.. I was looking at that site. It had a very vague description of how Bruce Lee had so much power behind the one inch punch. Which made the whole description that's in the site seem so sucky. If he would have told of how Bruce Lee exactly of how Bruce achieved the one inch punch, and how he did it. He wouldn't have been so naive.

Where he went wrong is: "To deliver huge power in the exact range it's most effective: the last inch!"

-The last inch is not most effective, but rather every inch from the beginning to the last inch is effective. To deliver the punch from point A to Point B.

Unless if that's what he mean't. Rather than talking about Bruce Lee's punch.
The One Inch Punch is definately not his most powerful punch.

[EaglePryde]

I don't think so...the last short part of a punch determins its outcome greatly. In Tai Chi you learn diffrent outcomes at extreme short range. The only difference is how you channel you're power and if you stop shortly after contact or not.

A punch could start slow and weak just to unleash it's full power at the end when focused in this last part.

I am a very slim guy and no one would think i could deliver a huge amount of power onto another person but it's not true...i study under an old sensei in privat. He sure isn't someone with big muscles nor does he look trained but he's abilities, fighting skills and the amount of power he delivers are something i never experienced before. It's just how you focus, how you breath and move

[Shrukin89]

I don't think that this is all. It refers to ordinary physiks. In my training, Mass is exchanged with inner energy, focused inside yourselfe to produce the force needed when hitting a target..Even Speed is increased through this.

Sry for my bad english. I'll try hard to make the best of what i can :)

Chi is an important factor in daily life, and Chi is the inner energy that you have in you and in all of us. There is bad Chi and good Chi.

I think what you mean't is. Mass is exchanged with kinetic energy, not with inner energy.

I don't think you would be able to exchange Mass with Chi, do you know how many people would be skinney in this world? They would recommend it for diet plans all over the world. That would be amazing though. :D

[Shrukin89]

I don't think so...the last short part of a punch determins its outcome greatly. In Tai Chi you learn diffrent outcomes at extreme short range. The only difference is how you channel you're power and if you stop shortly after contact or not.

A punch could start slow and weak just to unleash it's full power at the end when focused in this last part.

I am a very slim guy and no one would think i could deliver a huge amount of power onto another person but it's not true...i study under an old sensei in privat. He sure isn't someone with big muscles nor does he look trained but he's abilities, fighting skills and the amount of power he delivers are something i never experienced before. It's just how you focus, how you breath and move

So I take it's mind over matter? That's what Bruce Lee has been into.
If it's in that case the guy should have said so. And yes I agree it has nothing to do with muscles at all, and I like your point that that it's of how you focus, breathe, and move.

[EaglePryde]

Nay :) what i mean't is that you don't need mass as a factor to determin the force you realese through a punch :)
Acceleration is important but not the mass...greater mass just means that you need more force to move it :) so acceleration would logicaly be solwer then with lesser mass :)

[Shrukin89]

EaglePryde, all of the factors contribute to release as a punch
Mass (weight), Acceleration (speed), full body movement, Flow, Balance, Technique, shout of Kiap.

Like you said, it determines how they move, how much focus they put into it, and Breathing that determines the power of a punch. So do some of these factors that i've mentioned just above.

But leaving one factor behind will change the effectivness of a punch.

So mass would be one of them.

The equation for force would not be
"Force= Acceleration X Inner Energy"

[Skrom]

someone please lock this abomination of a thread before it goes any further :bang:

[EaglePryde]

Yes i agree partialy. But Mass isn't weight. A small particle could have the same mass as the earth itselfe. And this formula is related to physical mass an not to the build of a person in any way. This is why i mean't that it can't be used as is for martial arts and if then not as it is. Because factors like distance, fokus, speed, power you need to measure the output have to be integrated in it. And most of these factors aren't linear aswell. Your formula just tells us that the amount of energy you use is the energy you loose. In Martial Arts you try to overcome this factor because you're strongly related to the distance from you're first move with you're fist until it reaches the target. So it would be wise to put the most power into the punch at the end of it to prevent a to great power loss. Inner Energy would determine how much power you have in a certain way, focus would determine efficency...and so on

But i agree that you can't exchange mass with inner energy in you're formula in this way. What i meant is that mass isn't such a great factor at all in martial arts and can be left aside because if i harden my bones and train my muscles, even if i stay skinny, my overall mass would improve because of the density and not of weight or how skinny or massive i look. And the amount of damage you inflict on a target isn't because how much mass a fighter has.

Look it this way. Martial Arts isn't related to beating the hell out of someone by brute force. Is how to use their power against them, the points you strike and so on...

I don't think it helps to use common maths and physics to analyse it :)

Hope i could give you a better picture of what i meen :)

Anyway it's interessting what ideas everyone has :)

[Shrukin89]

I kind of see what you mean now.

"Your formula just tells us that the amount of energy you use is the energy you loose. In Martial Arts you try to overcome this factor because you're strongly related to the distance from you're first move with you're fist until it reaches the target. So it would be wise to put the most power into the punch at the end of it to prevent a to great power loss."


Yup you will put the most power to the end of the punch, of when you snap it out indeed. Don't forget to make a fast punch you need a lot of power to initially to propel your fist and arm at the distance that you want, and high power to make the snap at the end. It lowers your consumption of energy than putting all power all of the way through the punch. But energy in will equal to energy out regardless. The harder you work the more energy you put into it. The less the work the less the amount of energy.

Your muscles will get less tired if relaxed than tense.

This will be off topic though. It will prevent me from clearing up more issues along to what I have to explain about mass, I guess. But anyways.


What fuels us is the sugars (energy) from food that is broken down. The sugars are basically energy for us to make us move, breathe, focus, and etc. The sugars are made and broken down further and further until it is excreted out of the kindeys, and out of the intestine.

Going back to the chart, to move something you would need: In order; Food is consumed > Food is broken down into sugars > sugars used as energy to have the body to perform tasks.

Don't get me wrong but a mass of some sort has to take up some volume with in a container. Mass is another thing for matter.


Anyways I think I understood a bit of it. ^_^

Yup very good replies :)

[Rakim]

Soz ppl, cudnt b @ssed to read all the replies, so if i repeat anything, my bad......

As far as I know, plyometrics (clapping push ups etc) work on the fast twitch fibres in your muscles, making faster punches possible. However, a fast punch is not gauranteed to hurt/damage more than a slower punch. In boxing, I learn how to get weight behind a punch, using this technique i can make the heavy bag move quite efficiently. My fastest punch is my jab, as it is with 99% of boxers, yet it is without doubt my least powerful, purely because there is not as much pivoting, rotation, or weight behind it. My right body hook is my most damaging punch, yet it doesnt move at an amazing speed, i just lock my arm, pivot my hips, and follow through with my weight leaning ahead of the punch. Hope this helps.....

[Shrukin89]

lol yeah you repeated some of it, that's alright man. All replies count, thanks for the additional tips. :)

[kyokutsuki]

y does every 1 think that Speed= Power ?/

I think they mean Power= Speed x Mass

[Shrukin89]

y does every 1 think that Speed= Power ?/

I think they mean Power= Speed x Mass

Precisly, they do mean it by that way. They don't really bring the "Mass" part into the equation. I could see that they wouldn't want to anyway.

Power derives from the mass that is driven into an object by speed.

So the faster it goes the more power that goes into it from the weight (mass) behind it.

We are basically made of mass. (skin, bones, muscle, fat, blood)

[TigerDude]

OK, I'm going to throw in on the physics of the discussion.

Force = mass x acceleration is not really the issue here. In this equation, the force is the force of your muscle contraction that accelerates the mass of your arm (& the rest of you). A better use of this equation is acceleration = force / mass. A strong puncher will be able to move his or her arm quickly.

Mass is not weight, but for all intents & purposes, it is the same on our planet. Something on earth that weighs a pound or kilo will have that equivalent mass. You can change that mass from adding muscle or fat, and possibly a small amount of bone, but it's mostly going to be how big you are. Note that fat will add mass, but will reduce your velocity (F=ma above). As such, your overall kinetic energy will be less.

Kinetic energy is the primary mechanism of imparting a hurt to someone or something. Kinetic energy will be lost at impact from friction, heat, etc. Kinetic enery = 1/2 times mass x velocity-squared. As such, faster speeds will move up kinetic energy more. Momentum or impulse is mass x velocity. The momentum of two bodies is conserved, which means that the momentum of your punch (fist, arm, & body of they are locked together at impact) will turn into backward momentum of the receiver of the punch.

Clearly, both speed & mass are important. If mass were not important, there would not be weight classes in boxing, Muay Thai, etc. Butterbean might not be the fastest puncher, but I wouldn't want to get popped by him.

Hope this helps.

[nightcrawlerEX]

Force = Mass X Accelleration

Increasing either mass or accelleration will add power.

The way i see it is that mass is a factor most people are working on already so I focus on speed.

And also i do not beleive that that mass & accelleration are the only factors of a punch. There is...

Density of fist
Technique
Speed
Mass
Stance
etc.

[TigerDude]

I agree. I thought your article was well written. Sorry if it appeared otherwise. I just have a thing against bad science (a couple of other posters).

Force, tho, is not the force of the punch. The force is the force applied by tour muscles to your arm.

[Shrukin89]

.Mass is not weight, but for all intents & purposes, it is the same on our planet. Something on earth that weighs a pound or kilo will have that equivalent mass. You can change that mass from adding muscle or fat, and possibly a small amount of bone, but it's mostly going to be how big you are. Note that fat will add mass, but will reduce your velocity (F=ma above). As such, your overall kinetic energy will be less.

Really what mass is defined, is the quantity of matter which a body contains which is which a body contains, as measured by it's acceleration under a given force or by the force exerted on it by a gravitational field.

In general use that we use to desribe it as (weight).

But mass is more of a scientific kind of word that we use. But we hardly use the word "mass" in this world, but rather we would use it in an equation in physics.

[Shrukin89]

And welcome to MAP :)

[yodaofcoolness]

Power = Strength & Speed

Here are my thoughts...

Power = Mass and Speed

The mass that can be placed behind a punch is determined by technique, muscle [strength (slow twitch?)], and friction between feet and ground.(as well as how big you are of course)

The speed is determined by technique, muscle (fast twitch?) and friction between feet and the ground.[as well as how big you are.(how much you have to get moving)]

I think inertia is a big factor, because for the "speed" part you have to work against your inertia to get moving and for the "mass" part you have to keep it going.


[edit]- "A wide stance increases balance and power in your punch but if the stance is too wide it can decrease your mobility and movement speed."

Couldn't you say the same thing about a long stance?

Is this article talking about all punches or just certain ones? Please clarify.

[edit again!] *Speed
Force = mass x Accl

So as far as your potential for speed is concerned, Force is the fast twitch muscles and the mass is you (everything you have to move while doing a punch). Now if you have longer arms, then you have more distance to accl. So by the end of your punch you have more speed than someone with shorter arms?

So if that is the case a bigger person would have more mass, more speed, and more reach? :confused:

[Nevada_MO_Guy]

Punching Power? This is an interesting post.

I don't think Punching effect has been taken into account.

The post seems a bit one sided with it being the amount of pure power derived from technique and physics. Which seems answered.

I am thinking of 3 punching scenarios. There are blends into each but I'm curious about members thoughts on how punching power versus punching effect perceived, relative to each other.

1st scenario is with an attacker standing still. You punch with your fastest punch, using proper body mechanics, twisting the hips, full extension and contact on the chin with the two knuckles. This should be your most powerful punch that you can generate with your body size and musculature.

2nd scenario is with the attacker stepping toward you and you shuffling or stepping toward him, as you throw your punch, at the same target as before with the same knuckles. Your punch would be a little slower and you wouldn't get full extension or hip rotation. However your body mass is moving forward plus the attacker body mass is moving toward your punch. The combined forces would produce more effect than you could generate on your own.

3rd scenario is that the attacker is on the ground or against a wall. The attacker can not move at all. You are close to him and throw your punch to the same target with the same knuckles. This time you have no, or hardly any, hip rotation, you do not have full extension or follow through with your punch. However the attackers head can not move at all and has to take the full brunt of the punch on the chin with your two knuckles. This time you generated less force than the last two scenarios but the punching force you did generate did not dissipate with the attackers head moving with the blow.

Just some thoughts. :)

[TheCount]

I know I am not the most knowledgeable about physics and mathematics on this board, however I think I can contribute something.

Force = Mass x Acceleration

Acceleration given by Velocity 1 - Velocity 2 Divided by Time.

So, look at these elements. A heavier person punches harder, because they have a heavier mass behind them meaning that the proportional effect on an equal or smaller mass is much greater.

E=mv is also applicable, the heavier the mass and the faster its moving the more energy it has, hence more power/damage.

Also, with the first equation you have the velocity element. The faster your punch is the more effect it has also, when you hit at a faster pace it will do more. This explain why thin people can sometimes punch as hard as big people.

Just my thoughts on the matter

[nightcrawlerEX]

1st scenario is with an attacker standing still. You punch with your fastest punch, using proper body mechanics, twisting the hips, full extension and contact on the chin with the two knuckles. This should be your most powerful punch that you can generate with your body size and musculature.

2nd scenario is with the attacker stepping toward you and you shuffling or stepping toward him, as you throw your punch, at the same target as before with the same knuckles. Your punch would be a little slower and you wouldn't get full extension or hip rotation. However your body mass is moving forward plus the attacker body mass is moving toward your punch. The combined forces would produce more effect than you could generate on your own.

3rd scenario is that the attacker is on the ground or against a wall. The attacker can not move at all. You are close to him and throw your punch to the same target with the same knuckles. This time you have no, or hardly any, hip rotation, you do not have full extension or follow through with your punch. However the attackers head can not move at all and has to take the full brunt of the punch on the chin with your two knuckles. This time you generated less force than the last two scenarios but the punching force you did generate did not dissipate with the attackers head moving with the blow.

Good point.



I know I am not the most knowledgeable about physics and mathematics on this board, however I think I can contribute something.

Force = Mass x Acceleration

Acceleration given by Velocity 1 - Velocity 2 Divided by Time.

So, look at these elements. A heavier person punches harder, because they have a heavier mass behind them meaning that the proportional effect on an equal or smaller mass is much greater.

E=mv is also applicable, the heavier the mass and the faster its moving the more energy it has, hence more power/damage.

Also, with the first equation you have the velocity element. The faster your punch is the more effect it has also, when you hit at a faster pace it will do more. This explain why thin people can sometimes punch as hard as big people.

Just my thoughts on the matter


I think the propper equation in relation to a punch would be something like...

Force = Velocity X Mass

[yodaofcoolness]

Force = Mass X Accelleration

Increasing either mass or accelleration will add power.


Increasing mass or velocity will add power.
The increase in velocity is called accelleration.

There are different forces acting here.

One is the force the muscles produce.

Another force is calculated by the inertia of the person changing because of the hit. The person's inertia (recieving end) is changed(force) when it meets up with the inertia of the punch.

If I am thinking correctly, inertia is mass and velocity.

The inertia of a punch is what should be considered when trying to figure out the ammount of damage (change in another's intertia, AKA force) that a punch can do.

Speed does not equal power. :rolleyes:
Power does not equal strength and speed. :rolleyes:
... but I think you know this now.
So when is the Punching Power V3.0 article comming out?... ;)

[Skrom]

i have already expressed my displeasure with this thread, but i would like to add this:

fast twitch muscle fibers are responsible for putting out large amounts of force in a short period of time, over a short period of time.

slow twitch muscle fibers are responsible for putting out a small amount of force over a long amount of time.

it's sort of like the difference between sprinting and jogging. sprinting takes a lot of power and is not done for long periods of time, and jogging does not require much power but is done for long periods of time.

when weight lifting, light weights for high reps will activate the slow twitch fibers, while lifting heavy weights activates both fast and slow twitch fibers.

[Nightstrike]

I think the effort being put in this thread is great, and there is some valuable information..
But I think we need to take into account regular physics doesn't really "apply" here.
For example, because we are dealing with biomechanics, we should not be using the formula f=ma. We need to be taking into account everything
the chain of power (feet->legs->torso->shoulders->arms->wrists), and then account into things like dropping into your shots (see the famous ko dudes and how they punch) and THEN conventional physics like kenetic energy and the like.
I'm not saying those aren't needed to be looked at, but rather we should look at the little things most people don't notice.

For example..look at the backhook kick.
In WTF tkd and kyokushin, those suckers cause TONS of KO's...but should we think of it as F=MA in that situation?
I don't think so, sure the leg is going fast, but I think that the main culprit here for the power is well...torque.