Korean Ranks & Titles ... Important??

[KickChick]

I was just severely reprimanded on another forum... for referring to myself as a "sa bum nim" or sah bum nihm (spellings vary it seems)
Our school uses this term in addressing all of its black belts/instructors.

From what I was told (from this poster on this other forum)...."I would not encourage you to propagate that teaching as it will bring ridicule to you personally and to your school. The Mudo community is, shall we say, unforgiving. Look at some of the infighting that has gone on, and you will quickly see what I mean. If you haven't seen it yet you will."

HUH???:confused: .... do I need enlightening here or what??

The poster went on to say that .... " there are the old dogs like me, who frankly find it insulting that people who have trained less time than the age of some of our doboks, are called sabum. It is almost like why bother to train?"

OK so my question to all TKD practitioners....
How important are such "titles" do all schools/kwans/federations/associations (etc.) have different ranks / titles according to qualifications.... supposedly all 9 kwans endorse the same, this poster tells me.

[Chazz]

HUH. i hont have a clue to what he is say'n. Im CORNfused.

We always used the rank name as what we called a black belt. But from what im told some of the ones that we were using were wrong. So i dont know. I would say that the best thing to do is if you do ITF/general choi type of TKD then go by what they would call their black belts.

But on how important they are, we used them as a sign of respect to the person to took the time to earn their rank. Just like you would call a person who got a Doctors in a university a DR.

[flyingblackbelt]

personally i feel proud to not only be called sah bum nihm but also to refer to my fellow black belts as sah bum nihm, or sabum. I mean im really at the point were i dont care what any other tkd school on the planet is doing besides the one i train at because theres so many differences, not necessarily in the moves but in the method of training and the way the schools think. and no SABUM, you dont need enlightening.

[Bigfoot]

KickChick,

As far as I can understand, one must be at least a fourth Dan before one may call oneself Sa Bum Nim.

I would alike this to calling an undergraduate a professor. Or calling a Renshi a Shihan. As such I can understand why the comment was made.

If this is the policy, where you train, then use it. You are, of course, in the United States and as such, can do whatever you want in your school. If you want to call yourself a Master as a blue belt, no one can stop you from doing this - even though we both know that would be wrong.

[Chazz]

If that is what they call it in their school/club then how could that be wrong for her.

[Thomas]

I have no problems with using the rank titles... some organizations, like the IHF have a different title for each level but they don't seem to get used much. At our school, we use:

Beginners (white belts)
Color belts (Yellow to Red)
Black Belts (All black belts in the room)
Sa Beom Nim (Instructor - currently for the two assistant instructors when they are in charge of the class, otherwise we fall under 'black belt')
Kwan Jang Nim (Our master)

Note that the -Nim ending in Korean has no specific meaning execpt that it adds the honorific to the title, required when speaking directly to the person.

Everywhere that I have trained in the US and South Korea have used these terms and I don't really think the poster you referred to was very correct... just my opinion.

As a side note on Sa Beom Nim, I have only heard it used for instructor and have never heard it used to refer to all black belts. In Korea, we used "Sa Beom Nim" for instructor and "Yoo Dan Ja" for black belts.

[Chazz]

That sounds about like what i have seen. For my own personal enjoyment i have emailed the "ITF" and asked them what they use so that i may use them if/when i get another school. I will post you all with what they tell me.

[KickChick]

according to a friend from ITF Australia ( :) ) .... I made note of this info from him........

First to third degrees (boo sa-bum) are considered novice
Fourth to sixth degree (sa-bum) are considered expert
Seventh and eighth degree (sa-hyung) are considered masters
Ninth degree (sa-sung) is considered a grand master

.. but I am sure the ITF has this on their site .... no??

I know the ITU does not.

[TKD]

As posted before, Sa buh nim (that's how we spell it) is only used to refer to 4th degree and up, I think the meaning when translated to english is master. That's why only 4th and up.

[flyingblackbelt]

actually im pretty sure sa bum nihm translates into instructor

[Cain]

Ok, since this is about titles....not a TKD practitioner but don't kick me out please :D

Whenever titles are mentioned the first thing to come to a criticiser's mind is ego, which is true some times but one must understand that titles can be a sign of respect in the dojo too as far as one does not take it too seriously.

By going by that poster's example even calling comeone a 'blackbelt' is an ego thing since that's a rank too...

I don't see how having a rank has a problem like the one our hero mentioned there ;)

PS - Hope I replied on the right topic, or at least I hope the topic is about what I think it to be :o

|Cain|

[TKD]

Okay, when I started at my dojang I recieved a manual of pattern information, terminology and so on and so forth. Under the terminology section it says, "Sabu= instructor" and "Sabu Nim= master instructor" .

(My bad on the spelling in my other post.:))

[KickChick]

You will drive yourself stark raving mad to find the correct requirements for being a "sa bum nim" ... seems there are way too many different meanings among all the kwans and organisations. Just look it up on the internet.
However, the "Nim" suffix is used to show respect as "san" is in Japanese ...

[Chazz]

LOL this thread has got more hit than i thought. ok ive spent the last little bit doing some research for you all. This is what i have found. Remember this is what is used by these orgs.

International TaeKwon-Do Association
http://www.itatkd.com
Nim - Term of Respect
Sa Bum Nim - Instructor
Yu Dan Cha - Holder of a blackbelt rank

United State Martial Arts Federation
http://www.usmaf.org
Sah Bom Nim - Master Instructor
Yoo Dan Ja - Holder of a blackbelt rank

National Korean Martial Arts Association
http://nkmaa.ca
Sa Boo Nim - Master Instructor
Sabum Nim - 4th Dan Instructor
Pu Sabum Nim - 3rd Dan Instructor
Kyo Sa Nim - 2nd Dan Instructor
Jo Kyo Nim - 1st Dan
Yu Dahn Jah - All black belts

DojangWeb.com
http://www.dojangweb.com
Kwan jang nim - Master Instructor
Sa boem nim - Just an Instructor
Yu dan ja - Just a black belt

So there are a couple of official orgs and a different MA info site. Most of all are different. So i feel if a school uses a term in their school chances are there will be 4 different school that have 4 different meaning for at term. So live with what you have and dont worrie about the other. Myself, well im waiting to hear back from the ITF about what they use and i will go by that from now on. (cut out the guess work and go to the org itself)

[TKD]

What would we do if we couldn't argue over nitpicky things on martial arts forums.....:)

[Chazz]

LOL have a lot more time on our hands and a much more boring life.

[Kwan Jang]

-As it was passed down to me from Grandmaster Dan Choi (9th dan WTF TKD, 9th dan Hapkido), Sa Bum Nim is a chief instructor. Depending on the rank/dan requirements, this can be acieved by 3rd-4th dan. Not all people of this rank are sa bum nim. Different Kwans have different requirements for Kwan Jang Nim as well. It can be from 5th-7th dan for entry level for this title depending on qualifications. I think that the use of these titles is appropriate since it helps to establish a professional relationship just as in a University setting, the titles Professor or Doctor are used for the instructors who have earned them. It can be misused for ego as mentioned. I think the main question is whether you use these titles or even insist on them for the benefit of the teaching enviroment and what you percieve as the good of your students or do you do it because you like it for your ego's sake. For myself, I never walk up and introduce myself as Master David Hughes. I do have and worked very hard for that title and continue to work even harder to stay worthy of it. Yet, it seems to me, for me to call myself this in public (espescially in , heaven forbid, a non-martial context/event) the height of ego and would often be offensive to at least some people. The title "master" can often have connotations to some outside the context that we use it in the arts. When I use the title Kwan Jang Nim, those connotations are not there for people. It is an earned profesional title regarding my qualifications as an instructor. If I meet someone, say at the gym, I'm Dave and I really don't care what they call me as long as it's not late for dinner. -Sorry if this is getting muddled, but it's really late and it's been a looong day. I do want to add that when people talk of traditions, we all have our own. Within the confines of your own school it is your business what you do. OTOH, I may even get a little annoyed if some" I've just been training 1 yr. and I've already got my black belt " from the local McDojo/dojang (not at all implying that you are such ma'am) referred to themselves as sa bum or kwan jang, espescially knowing how hard and how many decades I worked to earn those titles. Just like a PhD from an accreditted program may not like someone trying to pass themselves off as having the same title w/o having earned them.

[Chazz]

Here is when you know that an org wants money.

I emailed on the the 3 ITF that said that they are the real ITF and asked them about what you call a 1st dan and so on. Well the answer i got back wassnt what i thought it would be. I was told that if i wanted the answers i was looking for i could senf the $120.00 + dollars and they would answer me and send me the TKD encyclopedia and told me thats how i could get my answer.

So ummmmm im going to email on of the other "ITFs" and see what i get.

[flyingblackbelt]

thats absolutely rediculous chazz and its organizations like the one you contacted that are destroying the art.

[Chazz]

Yeah the sad thin is that it is the one that General Choi turned over to Chang Ung

[The Wastrel]

I realize this was a long time ago KickChick, but I was browsing language related terms in here and found this. Thomas came close to touching on this, but I think I should let you and others know that if you ever refer to yourself as "nim" anything, you are committing a grievous error. That should be SOLELY reserved for referring to other people. Nim is an honorific attachable to virtually any title: teacher, sergeant, etc.

[Tosh]

Wow! Rave from the grave this one eh?

As another side note, I've only ever heard "nim" used in the UK in the following phrase to close or begin the class.

<Master instructors name> <Korean Title for grade> Nim-geh.

Which, I was led to believe nim-geh was lossely translated as 'highest respect for'

E.g. At Grandmaster Rhee seminars you'll here,

Rhee, Sasung nim geh, Kyong Je etc etc.

Does that make sense?

[The Wastrel]

Ggae is hard to explain. It's not part of the word...It's a postpositional particle. It can mean to or from, as in "talk to", "give to/take from". But...it's a bit more complicated than that.

[Tosh]

Hmmmm, that makes sense if 'geh' is respect or something similar I suppose.

You learn something new every day, eh? ;)

[The Wastrel]

Ggae is the respectful FORM of to/from, but it doesn't mean "respect" as in a transitive verb (chonkyong hada).

[Tosh]

That'll be two things now then. :D

[Yang, Dae-han]

First, the correct spelling (yes, there actually is a correct way), is 'sa beom nim'. The romanisation of Korean has been driving me mad here (and in TKDTimes), so I will be writing a succinct essay to TKDT on how to do it...if I can find the time (no pun is meant)

Second, the term 'sa beom' is for 4th dan black belts (atleast, I've never heard of that title for anyone of lesser degree). I've only heard the term 'sa boo' in schools that practice Chinese arts (akin to Sifu). I agree that 5-7 dan is considered 'kwan jang.'

Kyo sa is reserved for teachers in general (such as high school teachers), yoo dan ja is for black belts (in general).

Jo kyo is just an assistant, such as a departmental assistant (to teachers/professors).

This discussion goes on in other fields, such as when is one able to called 'professor,' but I'd never call anyone a sa beom unless they were 4th dan.

Cheers,

Yang, Dae-han

[Yang, Dae-han]

Ggae is the respectful FORM of to/from, but it doesn't mean "respect" as in a transitive verb (chonkyong hada).


Gge is used after a person's name (followed by 'nim')...such as Yang Dae-han nim gge, or after a title - Seon saeng nim gge (teacher).

Also, we don't use 'gge' to our friends or anyone lower than we...it's reserved for the elders or someone of higher level (in art/field/position). In addition, 'gge' is used in the address of an envelope, when the letter is sent to a person who is not known well by the sender...kinda like what English writers would do with 'Sir/Madam.' Therefore, the term 'gge' (께) is more in line with "Dear" in this use.

You're right, gge is similar to 'to,' but not from. Also, as stated, 존경하다 (Jon-kyeong ha da) is the actual verb 'to respect.'

Cheers,

양대한

[oni_sensei]

The ITF and WTF simply have different translations for their terminology.

In ITF, "Sabum" is officially recognised as the Korean term for "Instructor/International Instructor", as stated in the Encyclopedia.

In other organisations, "Sabum/Sa bum nim" can mean whatever your instructor/organisation wants it to.

As far as I can tell, ITF is the only group to have their ranking terminology officially standardised.