The Other Side of SILAT

[IndraMuda]

THE OTHER SIDE OF SILAT

Hi All,

I love to learn your views!

Lots have been said by various “ Guru-Guru Silat “ that the practicing of SILAT will ultimately cultivate positive moral, conduct and daily actions. Perhaps this is the highest or ultimate goal to be aimed at? What is the knowledge underlying it?

IF it is TRUE is it not Silat is the solution to the current/ or some of the Social Evils?

[Silk Road]

Salaam Indra Mudra,

Very thought provoking post. I just don't know if I understand your last question: "What is the knowledge underlying it?" There's a lot I could say here, so please clarify that point whilst I gather my thoughts...

Silkroad

[IndraMuda]

Salam to you Silk Road and others,

TQ for your response and interest in the subject.

What is the knowledge underlying it? By this question I meant the following:

Which aspect of SILAT (physical and spiritual / inner trainning) that would help to cultivate / develop / manifest such SELF inner qualities [ Moral, Conduct ,daily actions / decisions etc ] and what is the theory (Science and Religious?), in brief, that make such realisation?

Hope it clarifies to start the “ball rolling”!

[wuzhong78]

@IndraMuda

Silat as well as Kungfu which is my prime MA. Each style has it characteristic. its characteristic usually adapted to practitioner personality. Further, a Guru or Sifu in some family type of school consider as a father for his students. A good teacher will plant the good morality and wisdom to his students.

In my kungfu clan, my sifu has changed my tashi (big brother) a hard drunkard man and lazy changed into full dicipline and tough guy. Try to be honest and objective, i'm not trying to evaluate myself and tell about my changes.

Depends to your own decision to pick up an art. whether you learn it for kicking ass or bully someone or to make changes to yourself (filosophy, dicipline, etc etc etc). the evil one usually get MA partially, just techniques to harm people but not MA as an integrated system.

Let's say, what military does to MA? they won't learning spiritual aspect and philosopy.. they need fast learning for MA technical development as their last weapon. They just learn it partially not whole system....

Another example, a boy get bully by stronger one. he gets a MA class and learn some fighting techniques to kicking ass. He can beat the opponent when sparring and back to school to revenge...

MA to train yourself... what train? depending you MA characteristic ... and it will applied to your daily activity if you would. How Taichi practice your patience, how Baji train my agressiveness also silat Kwitang.

Cheers guys! (^,^)/"

[tellner]

There are all sorts of good things that can make a person into a better citizen and human being. Silat is one of them. It's more the teacher than the particular practice methinks.

[Sgt_Major]

I got into it after i got put in hospital for 3 weeks by 6 of my so-called mates, after someone started a rumour about me that wasnt true.

I vowed when I woke up it would never happen again, and I see silat as the key to that.It has improved my confidence, fitness, and overall mental well being.

[Narrue]

I think that there are many roads one could take to improve oneself and Silat is just one of those roads. Ultimately everyone will choose a road to walk which takes there liking and agrees with their ideals but in the end many of those roads lead to the same destination. You could take the road of Martial arts, Yoga, meditation etc etc but if you have a good hart you will find your way, perhaps your own unique way. Some may find a guide who will point the way through the woods and others find their own way through.

[IndraMuda]

Hi All,

Great views: Wuzhong, Tellner, Sgt Major, Narrue & Silk Road. Being new member in this forum, I appreciate your friendly responses and willingness to share your personal experiences and knowledge. Hope others would join in the discussion to.

YES, I absolutely concur with all of your views that Silat is one of the contributor / path towards achieving one’s ideal or helping to evade, if not all, some of the social evils.

What about the philosophical view that: “Morality and good conduct are not possible without knowledge. The contents, sources and conditions of knowledge must, therefore, be understood in detail”.

In line with the said philosophical conclusion, what kind of traditional ethical system (theoretical and practical) adopted by current Guru-Guru Silat, in particular, to substantiate their claimed that the learning (besides jurus, punching, kicking, blocking, grappling, music, seni etc) would help the pesilat to reach their ideal? OR, such knowledge failed to be acquired by most of the current Gurus (with due respect)!

“Know thyself” has been also the cry of many philosophers and Guru-Guru Silat amongst the “ancients” as well as amongst the modern: is this knowledge has got anything to do with it?

[IndraMuda]

Hi All,

May I humbly share this experience and look forward for your thoughts:

I remembered during my childhood days my late father used to remind me: that “SPEED” in all human actions: offences and defenses ( specifically in physical Silat) were not based on muscles, or physical techniques but more on the purity of the “HEART”. He went on to elaborate: that all human actions are full with hesitations and deliberations due to our INTELLECT / REASON ( Akal ) paused in making judgement. This is the secret of true knowledge of “speed” in Silat referred to, by him, as faster than a “blink of eyes”.

My sharing of the above is to reiterate that there are more than just physical techniques in Silat. There is hidden knowledge associated to it.

[Sgt_Major]

Like instinct. We turn off the conscious mind, and just 'move' - that way there is no delay between the brain function, and the action.

[tellner]

The old saying "His strength is as the strength of ten because his heart is pure" is true. A big secret is that it doesn't really matter what it's purely full of. It's best if what fills the soul is something good like the Love of G-d or passion for excellence. But it works pretty much as well if it's greed, hatred or lust. Good martial arts, which certainly includes Silat, has training methods which can cultivate that purity of intention and purpose. It makes a person much more dangerous. This is one of the reasons why the traditional guru-murid relationship includes careful vetting and moral instruction.

[IndraMuda]

Hi Sgt Major and Others,

Qoute: SgtMajor

Like instinct. We turn off the conscious mind, and just 'move' - that way there is no delay between the brain function, and the action.

What guided instinct?
What is conscious mind?
What initiate a move or how does a man action is activated and formed in the first place?
No delay between the brain function, and the action? Human knowledge is imperfect unlike God’s knowledge is perfect and all inclusive.

Under such circumstances, how do you categorize your move / action:

a- Natural action (al-fi’l at-tabi’i) ?;
b- Intentional action (al-fi’l al-iradi) ? or ;
c- Voluntary action (al-fi’l-al-ikhtiari) ?

If you have no objection, would you care to share your knowledge? I apologize if I sounded naïve!

[Wali]

Hi Sgt Major and Others,

Qoute: SgtMajor

Like instinct. We turn off the conscious mind, and just 'move' - that way there is no delay between the brain function, and the action.

What guided instinct?
What is conscious mind?
What initiate a move or how does a man action is activated and formed in the first place?
No delay between the brain function, and the action? Human knowledge is imperfect unlike God’s knowledge is perfect and all inclusive.

Under such circumstances, how do you categorize your move / action:

a- Natural action (al-fi’l at-tabi’i) ?;
b- Intentional action (al-fi’l al-iradi) ? or ;
c- Voluntary action (al-fi’l-al-ikhtiari) ?

If you have no objection, would you care to share your knowledge? I apologize if I sounded naïve!

Did you by any chance post as IBA in a few other silat forums?

Thanks.

[IndraMuda]

Hi Wali and Others,

IBA is the grandson of IndraMuda and I am the mid-person :) Hope they are not infringing any “in-house rules” or disrespect anybody. If IBA did, I will definitely punish him with few strokes of “rotan”. However, I couldn’t do the same to my senior! I would be “rotan” by him instead.

[Wali]

Hi Wali and Others,

IBA is the grandson of IndraMuda and I am the mid-person :) Hope they are not infringing any “in-house rules” or disrespect anybody. If IBA did, I will definitely punish him with few strokes of “rotan”. However, I couldn’t do the same to my senior! I would be “rotan” by him instead.
Hi IndraMuda,

Not at all. IBA was always very respectful in his posts. I asked because the writing style between both of you is practically identical, and the web is a small place, so was curious.

He should be safe from the "rotan" for now! :)

Wali

[Sgt_Major]

I'm not sure I 100% understand the questions :o but I'll do my best.


What guided instinct?

By instinct I mean no thought. My brain reacts to a percieved intention, movement, threat, and by my brain reacting, my body is already moving, there is no thinking about it, except for the microseconds it takes the electronic pulses to be understood by the muscles. To think is to stall, and to stall is to get hit.

What is conscious mind?

This one I think is best left to the philosophers, but to me it is the 'thinking' level on the brain. It is this part that we use most in our day to day activities, where decisions can be rationalised, and looked at from different angles before a conclusion is required. Without it, we would be mere animals.

What initiate a move or how does a man action is activated and formed in the first place?

This is where I start to get lost. Do you mean How is an action caused, or started? I believe the root of this is the sub concious, the level below where we 'feel' things faster than our brain can process them normally. Physically, I believe the actions originate from the core, in your mid-section, where it can be driven to any part of the body with eqaul speed.

No delay between the brain function, and the action? Human knowledge is imperfect unlike God’s knowledge is perfect and all inclusive.

This one would require the belief in a perfect god, and I do not carry that belief.


Natural actions - Breathing, blinking, heart beat etc - These are carried out as basic functions. They start at birth, and they stop at death, there is no human interferance in keeping these going (unless they need re-started) They are cycles that continually repeat themselves, and do not need prompting of any description

Intentional actions - Movement, walking, talking, eating etc - These all require a pro-active starting. You will never just start walking without some form of thought process telling you to do so. This is the realm of the concious mind where decisions are made in light of a base of information.

Voluntary actions - stretching when tired, eye movements, etc - these are closer to instinctive actions, they require minimal thought, and the thoughts are processed so fast as to often feel like instinct. Like licking your lips when they feel dry, there is no real 'thought' but the body automatically realises the dryness, and already knows a way to correct this, so it does, with minimal processing.

I hope this has helped explain what I mean, at least a little bit anyway :D

[IndraMuda]

Hi Sgt Major and Others,

TQ for openness in your knowledge. I must say you are a “sport”! Reciprocating your openness and willingness to share, followings are my understanding on the subject matter. I am sorry I couldn’t go further than the hereunder stated as it will call for spiritual / religious knowledge which I am very sure will upset this long standing forum.

Natural action = unaffected by human will
Intentional action = not a blind responses but are conscious processes (volition)
.
The natural as well as the intentional actions are both involuntary and necessary. The different between the two is that the intentional action is preceded by perception and knowledge, while in the natural action perception of the object is not there

Voluntary action = which an alternative is possible and intellect / reason makes a choice. In this respect thing presented to mind are of two types:

1- Those which our introspection (gerak hati) or observation (penghayatan) pronounces without deliberation as agreeable or disagreeable. No alternative is presented to the mind. Though this action happened with intention, yet the intention was without the hesitation or deliberation.

2- Those which our reason hesitates or is suspended until we know whether the action which is to be executed is agreeable or not and we need deliberation until the intellect decided in favor of acceptance or rejection. Here an alternative is presented to the mind. It is in this category that most of our actions fall into and that inclusive all forms of martial arts / modern silat physical actions.

[Sgt_Major]

Hi Sgt Major and Others,

TQ for openness in your knowledge. I must say you are a “sport”! Reciprocating your openness and willingness to share, followings are my understanding on the subject matter. I am sorry I couldn’t go further than the hereunder stated as it will call for spiritual / religious knowledge which I am very sure will upset this long standing forum.



If your knowledge is presented in an understandable, and open minded/tolerant way, there will be no problems with it, I assure you. I would like to continue sharing ideas with you. If only I could understand more fully your ideas :D

[IndraMuda]

Hi Tellner and Others,

Quote:
Good martial art, which certainly includes Silat, has training methods which can cultivate that purity of intention and purpose. It makes a person much more dangerous.

I respect what ever your spiritual faith.

May I seek your thoughts / knowledge on the meaning: “purity of intention and purpose and it ultimate goal?” What is its relationship within the context of martial art or silat – perhaps: speed, power, or so called “super natural power”? Subsequently what it really means by: It makes a person much more dangerous.

Hope you do not mine sharing for the awareness of the community!

Wali:

TQ for saving me ! :Angel:

Sgt Major:

I will progress slowly towards it. Please do not hesitate to check me if I off track!

TQ All.

[Narrue]

“purity of intention and purpose. It makes a person much more dangerous”

Hmm..dificult to know what was meant by this as it could be interpreted in several ways.

First of all there is a difference between moving from the outside and being moved from the inside.

I remember we used to have a steel tube set in the ground outside and it was wrapped in several layers of rubber sheet. I used to practice striking this and doing all kinds of techniques on it. One day I remember being perhaps 3 meters away from this object and I went to strike it, one second I was standing 3 meters away and the next I was standing right next to it. Funny thing was this happened in literally a blink of an eye, my teacher who was watching out the window stood there with his mouth wide open like he had just seen a ghost. He behaved very strangely towards me for some time after that. I guess he must have been kind of spooked by it.
I was shocked when it happened. I don’t remember even moving my legs but what I do remember is how the movement felt different then simply jumping. I slipped just over the surface of the ground as if it was coated with a layer of ice or something slippery. Big difference was I moved from the inside not the outside, very difficult to describe the feeling.
I tried to do it again but I could not, the difference was in my state of mind I think.
I would describe that action as a moment when I had purity of mind and purpose and it resulted it rapid movement and yes if you could do it all the time you would be very dangerous :D

[Sgt_Major]

I've had one experience like that, from the bottom of the stairs to the top, when I heard my daughter scream upstairs, One second I was at the bottom with my wife, the next I was at the top, and she was only 1/4 the way up. I could never replicate it again either.

[Narrue]

I remember something a guy said on TV once that struck a cord with me.

“Man is such a creature that he only finds his true self in extremes, extremes of this, extremes of that”

[tellner]

Narrue and IndraMudra...

It's pretty obvious that I'm not being clear about this. I mean a number of overlapping traits such as undivided attention, strong focus, utter goal-orientation, filtering out extraneous concerns and sensory inputs, silencing the chattering voice in the back of one's head and removal of doubt. It's not religious even though many religious traditions teach it as part of their spiritual instruction. It's not supernatural. There are purely mechanistic, secular approaches to the same end.

If you're not getting in your own way you are a lot more effective.

[Narrue]

Narrue and IndraMudra...

It's pretty obvious that I'm not being clear about this. I mean a number of overlapping traits such as undivided attention, strong focus, utter goal-orientation, filtering out extraneous concerns and sensory inputs, silencing the chattering voice in the back of one's head and removal of doubt. It's not religious even though many religious traditions teach it as part of their spiritual instruction. It's not supernatural. There are purely mechanistic, secular approaches to the same end.

If you're not getting in your own way you are a lot more effective.

I would not say it was religious neither would I say it was supernatural as how can anything operate outside the laws of nature and yet occur in nature? I however would not say it was purely physical. I would say that it is based in internal force which is in my view nothing to do with religious or spiritual things.

I often wonder when Christians talk about the holy ghost entering their bodies that they may be confusing internal occurrences with religious things. I have had similar things happen to me, the difference being that I would simply describe what happened as internal energy whilst others might say it was the Holy Ghost or something religious.

[tellner]

I would not say it was religious neither would I say it was supernatural as how can anything operate outside the laws of nature and yet occur in nature? I however would not say it was purely physical. I would say that it is based in internal force which is in my view nothing to do with religious or spiritual things.

The Wise have debated about this for millennia without coming to any sort of conclusion. We probably won't either. Suffice it to say that English doesn't have a good vocabulary for talking about such things.

[Narrue]

The Wise have debated about this for millennia without coming to any sort of conclusion. We probably won't either. Suffice it to say that English doesn't have a good vocabulary for talking about such things.

Agree with you and disagree with you on this one. That a satisfactory conclusion will be reached in this thread, I doubt it.

That the vocabulary in the English language is not sufficient to express such things, not true.

[IndraMuda]

Hi Tellner,

Though I seek clarification, the spiritual meaning underlying your post is “crystal clear” to me. Let me say this: you are not short of English words or terminologies nor your spiritual knowledge. If I may summarize my understanding in brief:

1- The old saying "His strength is as the strength of ten because his heart is pure" is true. My understanding according to my Islamic view is IMAN (Faith)

2- A big secret is that it doesn't really matter what it's purely full of - But it works pretty much as well if it's greed, hatred or lust: My knowledge says it is a ”freedom of choice grace by god to man”

3- It's best if what fills the soul is something good like the Love of G-d or passion for excellence. My knowledge says it is a ”Makrifatullah or knowledge of GOD and knowledge Mukasyafah”

4- training methods which can cultivate that purity of intention and purpose

a. Taqlid & Knowledge
b. Contemplation & Meditation
c. Knowledge of Muamalah

5- It makes a person much more dangerous: Self destruction (Physical & next world)

6- This is one of the reasons why the traditional guru-murid relationship includes careful vetting and moral instruction.

a. To uphold God’s trust and to fight for the truth
b. Iman > Jihad > Hijrah (Faith > struggle & sacrifices > migration or shift)

Please do not hesitate to correct me if I am totally out of your understanding.

[tellner]

Exactly right. The words change, but the basic truth is universal. It might get dressed up in different language depending on a person's background.

[IndraMuda]

Hi All,

Please allow me to elaborate in brief and share my understanding with members of this forum at large:

[The old saying "His strength is as the strength of ten because his heart is pure" is true. My understanding according to my Islamic view is IMAN (Faith)]

Allah SWT tells us that by His will, a small force can defeat a larger one. [Translation: When Talut set forth with the armies, he said: ‘Allah will test you at the stream – if any drinks of this water, he goes not with my army. Only those who taste not of it go with me- a mere sip out of the hand is excused.’ But they all drank of it, except a few. When they crossed the river, he and the faithful one with him, they said: The day we cannot cope with Goliath and his forces.’ But those who were convinced that they must meet Allah said: “How oft, by Allah’s will, has a small force vanquished a big one? Allah is with those who steadfastly persevere.

Surah 2, Al-Baqarah verse 249

Another illustration strength of faith is the story of the Battle of Badr in which the Prophet Muhammad [PBUH] with a force of 313 men came face to face with an enemy force of a thousand.

[Translation: “O Prophet! Rouse the believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred, if a hundred they will vanquish a thousand of the unbelievers: for these are people without understanding.”

Surah 8, Al-Anfal verse 65

Based on the above, it is evident that the enemies of those who believe will be defeated. When and how, only Allah SWT knows.

[tellner]

Close, and as I said, my personal belief is that love of G-d is the best thing one's heart can be full of. A parent's love for her child, duty, and personal integrity are all good ones.

But it doesn't have to be something so wholesome in order to work.

A passion for revenge, hatred, a mind filled with lust, overwhelming greed or any number of other bad things can focus the will, unite the mind, silence the "monkey brain" and purify intention. The same methods can train the minds of evil people and make them very strong in their wickedness.

If you get out of your own way and have an undivided spirit you become much more formidable even if the direction you're pointed in is a destructive one.

[Narrue]

Hi All,

Please allow me to elaborate in brief and share my understanding with members of this forum at large:

[The old saying "His strength is as the strength of ten because his heart is pure" is true. My understanding according to my Islamic view is IMAN (Faith)]

Allah SWT tells us that by His will, a small force can defeat a larger one. [Translation: When Talut set forth with the armies, he said: ‘Allah will test you at the stream – if any drinks of this water, he goes not with my army. Only those who taste not of it go with me- a mere sip out of the hand is excused.’ But they all drank of it, except a few. When they crossed the river, he and the faithful one with him, they said: The day we cannot cope with Goliath and his forces.’ But those who were convinced that they must meet Allah said: “How oft, by Allah’s will, has a small force vanquished a big one? Allah is with those who steadfastly persevere.

Surah 2, Al-Baqarah verse 249

Another illustration strength of faith is the story of the Battle of Badr in which the Prophet Muhammad [PBUH] with a force of 313 men came face to face with an enemy force of a thousand.

[Translation: “O Prophet! Rouse the believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred, if a hundred they will vanquish a thousand of the unbelievers: for these are people without understanding.”

Surah 8, Al-Anfal verse 65

Based on the above, it is evident that the enemies of those who believe will be defeated. When and how, only Allah SWT knows.

Following your line of thinking it’s possible to fall into the trap of extremist belief and behaviour i.e. the non-believers will be defeated by the believers, the non believers are wrong and the believers are right, the non believers are evil and the believers are good, the non believers must be defeated and the believers must prevail, the non believers are weak and the believers are strong. As a matter of interest what is it that the believer must practice and believe in?

Are we talking about a connection to god?
To connect to something you must be similar to that which you seek to be connected with e.g. if you want to tune into a particular radio channel you must resonate with that frequency i.e. you must match that frequency being sent out.

To resonate with a thing is to know that thing!

True and certain, certain and most true, that which is like knows that which is like onto that i.e. like can only know like. If you want to know God you must be like God. God is infinite and man is finite, God is an Ocean and man is a cup. Can you fit the ocean into a cup, can the finite know the infinite, is it possible for man to really know God?

Some people have a connection to nature and mistake it for a connection to God.

Ninth gate, not yours to pass!

[IndraMuda]

Hi Narrue and Others,

Quote: Narrue
As a matter of interest what is it that the believer must practice and believe in?

For the purpose of non-muslim, hereunder is a brief understanding of what is IMAN:

A man appeared with very white clothes and very black hair, with no signs of travel on him and asked Prophet (PBUH): “What is IMAN?”

The Prophet (PBUH) replied:

“IMAN is that you believe in Allah, His Angels, His Books, His Messengers and the Last Day, and that you believe in the predetermination of good and evil.”

Noble Prophet (PBUH) informed his companions that this was the Angel Gabriel who came to teach them their religion (Bukhari, etc)

It is good to receive your response and manifestation of your personal view for the interest and knowledge at large. The more views received will provide alternatives and enable each and every one to progress with: Thinking, Understanding, practice and finally teach to others of similar line of thoughts.

With regards to the practices, I rather leave the subject matter to individual’s interpretation, choice of knowledge and faith

Other points in your post, e,g:

• To connect to something you must be similar to that which you seek to be connected with

• To resonate with a thing is to know that thing!

As a matter of fact, I have covered the subject matter relating to the above points of yours. Perhaps, you are not familiar with the terminologies used. It will be briefly shared in my subsequent post/s if you care to follow.

[ICT]

THE OTHER SIDE OF SILAT

Hi All,

I love to learn your views!

Lots have been said by various “ Guru-Guru Silat “ that the practicing of SILAT will ultimately cultivate positive moral, conduct and daily actions. Perhaps this is the highest or ultimate goal to be aimed at? What is the knowledge underlying it?

IF it is TRUE is it not Silat is the solution to the current/ or some of the Social Evils?

IndraMuda,

I'ts not the art but it's the teacher and/or spiritual teachings added to the style.

Practicing Silat or any other fighting, sport or method doesn't make a person have a better personality!

I know a lot of So called select, chosen, high ranking Silat Pesilat's that are as evel as evil comes!

I even think that some of the more esoteric spiritual training called as Chi-Kung, Tenaga Dalam or Ilmu can have a negative effect on ones personality!

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

[IndraMuda]

Hi ICT and Others,

Nice to know and good to have your views in this thread!

Quote:
A big secret is that it doesn't really matter what it's purely full of - But it works pretty much as well if it's greed, hatred or lust: My knowledge says it is a ”freedom of choice grace by god to man”

The IDEAS which lead to the operation of WILL are of two kinds:

1. Those which lead to GOOD ACTION, and;
2. Those which lead to EVIL ACTION.

The first is known as INSPIRATION and the second as SEDUCTION. These two types of ideas are due to different elements in the nature of man, known as:

1. The Divine, and;
2. The Satanic

These elements in the nature of man are under the direct influence of forces in the cosmos known as:

1. Angelic force, and;
2. Satanic force

which are created to help or hinder the working of the universe. The divine influence which enables the HEART to receive the good idea is called THE DIVINE AID, and if the heart accepts the evil idea it is called the FORESAKEN

In this way the heart of man is between the pull of the angelic and the satanic influences.

By nature the heart is equally susceptible to the angelic as well as the satanic influences.

The divine element is guided by intellect or reason and the satanic element is led by appetition that is self assertion.

In summary: man has always two roads open before him, the road of success and fruition, and the road of loss and ruin. The messenger of God (PBUH) is his guide, and the lower self and Satan is his waylayer. According to his intelligent he either takes the prophet as his leader or his selfish soul, and chooses for his destination either the supreme triumph or the uttermost humiliation.

For those who practice Silat (as truly defined by Khazanah Warisan Kebudayaan dan Bangsa Melayu), it is the knowledge and practice of [S], as in the word “[S]-ILAT”, that establishes / guided the pesilat’s Good and Bad qualities as “guarantee’s by Allah SWT.” It also establishes the pesilat’s relationship with Allah SWT, Man, Cosmos/Universe and all other creator’s creations either visible nor invinsible.

[Wali]

Hi ICT and Others,

Nice to know and good to have your views in this thread!

Quote:
A big secret is that it doesn't really matter what it's purely full of - But it works pretty much as well if it's greed, hatred or lust: My knowledge says it is a ”freedom of choice grace by god to man”

The IDEAS which lead to the operation of WILL are of two kinds:

1. Those which lead to GOOD ACTION, and;
2. Those which lead to EVIL ACTION.

The first is known as INSPIRATION and the second as SEDUCTION. These two types of ideas are due to different elements in the nature of man, known as:

1. The Divine, and;
2. The Satanic

These elements in the nature of man are under the direct influence of forces in the cosmos known as:

1. Angelic force, and;
2. Satanic force

which are created to help or hinder the working of the universe. The divine influence which enables the HEART to receive the good idea is called THE DIVINE AID, and if the heart accepts the evil idea it is called the FORESAKEN

In this way the heart of man is between the pull of the angelic and the satanic influences.

By nature the heart is equally susceptible to the angelic as well as the satanic influences.

The divine element is guided by intellect or reason and the satanic element is led by appetition that is self assertion.

In summary: man has always two roads open before him, the road of success and fruition, and the road of loss and ruin. The messenger of God (PBUH) is his guide, and the lower self and Satan is his waylayer. According to his intelligent he either takes the prophet as his leader or his selfish soul, and chooses for his destination either the supreme triumph or the uttermost humiliation.

For those who practice Silat (as truly defined by Khazanah Warisan Kebudayaan dan Bangsa Melayu), it is the knowledge and practice of [S], as in the word “[S]-ILAT”, that establishes / guided the pesilat’s Good and Bad qualities as “guarantee’s by Allah SWT.” It also establishes the pesilat’s relationship with Allah SWT, Man, Cosmos/Universe and all other creator’s creations either visible nor invinsible.
Hi IndraMuda,

We believe that we must work at a higher level than the heart, as this can become polluted and corrupt. The highest level to operate from is the Spirit, to which we all have access to.

Things like silat, and indeed any physically demanding activity, can tame our lower nature, but can never truly remove it. This is why we must strive to live in the Spirit each day, as it takes more than our own deeds and actions to overcome it.

Remember, we cannot do these things in our own strength, and we must give it over to the Creator.

Living from the heart is not enough, we must live from the Spirit.

Cheers,
Wali

[Narrue]

Firstly I agree with Eddie, don’t confuse high rank or select persons in Silat for good hearted or spiritual masters. Physical and internal aspects of martial arts can be mastered by good and evil equally well and there are those who may be considered as select because of this knowledge but are far from pure or good persons.



In the west we often talk about animal instinct by using the phrase a gut feeling or I felt it in the pit of my stomach.

When talking about human nature we might say something like I feel it in my heart that it is the right thing to do or say, that person has broke my/ that person’s heart or speaking from the heart.

When talking about divine inspiration or inspiration in general we often say I had a flash of inspiration, that work is illuminated, he is illuminated. Those who are divinely inspired are often depicted in art with a light, fire or halo around their head.

We can see from the above that the human body may be considered as having three important centres, the head, the heart and the pit of the stomach. Each centre connects us to one of the three realms of existence, the upper, middle and lower.

Animal nature belongs to the lower realms, Human nature belongs to the middle realms and Spiritual nature belongs to the upper realms.

We as humans occupy a middle realm. We are not as advanced spiritually as other beings (I’m not talking about aliens btw :D ) above us but neither do we operate as low as the animals. We have choice and what you decide to do is up to you. You can either go up or down.

There is a teaching about the physical shape of the human heart. It is wide at the top and narrow at the bottom. Wide at the top so that it should be open to things from above and narrow at the bottom so that it should be closed to things from bellow.

We may chose to eat fruit from the top of the tree, the midsection of the tree or fruit that has fallen to the ground and may be infected by maggots. You are what you chose to eat.
The fruit at the top of the tree receives much sunlight but is difficult to reach. The fruit hanging from the lower branches of the tree received less light but are easy to reach.

The heart is like a judge who listens to both the good and bad and makes a decision. It is our human nature and directly relates to it.

As humans we need three types of food to be healthy. Physical food and nourishment is absorbed by the intestine and we were attached to our mothers via the umbilical cord our navel at the pit of our stomach being the point at which that took place. The Earth supplies us with all these requirements and if we lack them we will soon become physically sick and die.

Socially we need fellow humans though sometimes they break our hearts. History tells us that people who have been imprisoned or secluded socially from fellow humans often go mad. All humans are connected via our hearts.

Humans naturally look up to the heavens for spiritual sustenance and to be complete as humans we also need that spiritual food, inspiration, illumination.

So far you will have noticed that I have talked about the three centres in the human body, the three realms of existence and the three foods we all need to be healthy.

If we are going to talk about how we may progress spiritually or become more spiritualised as humans I think it would be worth considering body, soul and spirit because people often mistake or don’t know the difference between the spirit and the soul.

What is the difference between Spirit and soul?

Is it possible as humans to manipulate our spirit or change it for the better, can you directly improve your spirit? How can a human operate at the level of spirit, the highest nature of the human? What does it mean to have a pure heart?

[IndraMuda]

Hi Narrue, Wali and Others,

Doctors (Mind & Spiritual psychology) divide the soul into three main parts:

Animal nature belongs to the lower realms
• Nafs or The concupiscent self or selfish self

Human nature belongs to the middle realms
• Qalb or The Heart or The Intelligent self

Spiritual nature belongs to the upper realms
• The Spirit or The Intuitional self

The heart is like a judge who listens to both the good and bad and makes a decision.
• Quote: My earlier post

In this way the heart of man is between the pull of the angelic and the satanic influences.

By nature the heart is equally susceptible to the angelic as well as the satanic influences.

Physical food:
• Body

We need fellow humans:
• Divine Rituals & Ethical system

Spiritual food, inspiration, illumination:
• Faith

What is the difference between Spirit and soul?
• Spirit: Intuitional Self / Intellect / Reason

• Soul (Ruh) Only Allah knows: “I have made him and breathed into him of My Spirit.” 15:29

Is it possible as humans to manipulate our spirit or change it for the better?
• Manipulate NO. For the better, YES.

Can you directly improve your spirit?
• YES, with Specific Knowledge

How can a human operate at the level of spirit, the highest nature of the human?
• Only Allah’s Will.

What does it mean to have a pure heart?
• Fear of Allah (Takwa). "DON'T ACT AS GOD"

[Wali]

How can a human operate at the level of spirit, the highest nature of the human?
• Only Allah’s Will.
GOD"[/COLOR][/B]
I disagree. Surely it is God's will for us all to operate at this level. Anything less would imply that God favours some over others in this.

He has given us free will. It is how we excercise this free will, and choose to live in the Spirit that determines this.

I don't suscribe to the 'It's God's will' reasoning, and see this is a copout from many people. God has nothing by good intentions for us, so if we fail to reach a certain standard in anything, we cannot attribute it to 'God's will'.

As a Christian, I believe we all fall short of God's glory anyway, which is why Christ died for us on the cross, to bridge this gap between man and God. Without this acceptance, we will always be lacking. But anyway, this thread is getting way to religious for me, so I'll be sticking to purely physical silat posts from now on.

Cheers,
Wali

[Sgt_Major]

But anyway, this thread is getting way to religious for me
Wali

That why I'm quiet now :D

I'll just read, and moderate this one :p

[Narrue]

Those who state that it is possible to change or improve the human spirit prove that they don’t know the difference between spirit and soul. Those who do know would never make such a statement.

Those who talk about Gods will or say God wants this, would like that or it is gods will that this should happen prove that they don’t know about the nature of God. Think about it, what does will arise from?

[IndraMuda]

Hi Narrue and Others,

Nothing to be a shame of being ignorant. I humbly accept my weaknesses if you think so. I to apologize to others at large for sharing my "Ignorant" knowledge in the subject matter.

I have done my part to share my understanding on the different between Spirit (= Aql or Intellect or Reason or Intuitional Self) and Soul (= Divine breath which only God Knows).

For my knowledge and, perhaps others, would you kindly share and elaborate your understanding on the different? IF the knowledge on the subject matter is your Silat trade or Spiritual Faith secret, I would understand.

There is a malay saying: “Lempar batu sembunyi tangan”, translation: throw a stone but hiding your hand.

At this juncture, I beg to reserve my views on your subsequent points as not to prolong the misunderstanding prior to addressing the key issues.

As I have clearly mentioned in my earlier posting the subject of “spiritual entities” or “Know thyself” has been the cry by the ancient and the modern not only amongst Guru-Guru Silat, the intellectuals and, even, our Prophet (PBUH) particularly in addressing the issue in Morality and conduct because it is one of the determinant not only GOOD or BAD but also whether the “GATE” to Pure Knowledge (Mukasyafah) would be open or closed!

TQ

[IndraMuda]

Hi All Pesilat,

Perhaps by now some of you (PESILAT) have beginning to realize something “SCARRY” out of the thread!

For those who have been following the post and progress with: SERIOUS THINKING > UNDERSTANDING, beginning to realize where is the true source of “SOCIAL EVILS”, THE TRUE MEANING OF SELF DEFENSE”, THE CONCEPT OF SELF DEFENSE etc. The scariest amongst all is, “THE EVERLASTING AND CONTINOUS MOTHER OF ALL WARS CAUSED BY EMNITY OF THE SATAN AGAINST MANKIND”.

QUOTE: Earlier post.

In this way the heart of man is between the pull of the angelic and the satanic influences.

By nature the heart is equally susceptible to the angelic as well as the satanic influences.

Think about it…….I might be wrong!

[IndraMuda]

Hi All,

Back to Moral and conduct, the struggle for supremacy amongst the basic forces, Intellect on one side and Lust and Gluttony and Anger and Ferocity instigated by the satanic on the other, continually goes on in the human self.

It is the equilibrium between them all, inclusive of intellect that results in qualities character which are conclusive to the realization of the ideal. It is this state of the self when struggle in it ceased and harmony prevails which is described by the Quranic phrase as: An-Nafs al-Mutma'inna : The Serene Nafs: The Nafs in Complete Rest and Satisfaction.

But the disturbance of the equilibrium results in the predominance of one of them over the other, producing qualities which impede the progress of the self towards its goal.

[Wali]

Hi All,

Back to Moral and conduct, the struggle for supremacy amongst the basic forces, Intellect on one side and Lust and Gluttony and Anger and Ferocity instigated by the satanic on the other, continually goes on in the human self.

It is the equilibrium between them all, inclusive of intellect that results in qualities character which are conclusive to the realization of the ideal. It is this state of the self when struggle in it ceased and harmony prevails which is described by the Quranic phrase as: An-Nafs al-Mutma'inna : The Serene Nafs: The Nafs in Complete Rest and Satisfaction.

But the disturbance of the equilibrium results in the predominance of one of them over the other, producing qualities which impede the progress of the self towards its goal.
My friend,

At the risk of upsetting you, please let's keep the posts firmly on planet Earth.

Respectfully,
Wali

[IndraMuda]

Hi Wali and Others,

TQ for pre-warning me.

UPSET……..? WHY………! Am I going to get “cane” this time?
Don’t worry about me, TQ!

• Isn’t “Moral and Conduct” is part of good or bad qualities of PESILAT or PENDEKAR? Without which, who are they?

• Isn’t that is the basis of Silat Culture (Budaya) and Tradition (Adat) as strongly expressed and emphasized by every practicing silat “system” or Guru-Guru Silat besides the physical: offense and defense etc?

• Don’t you realize, even this forum has defined / outlined its own Ethical Values on moral and conduct, attempts to administrate and regulate the conduct of its participating members and guests!

• IF I may ask with respect, what is your Silat’s Ethical (Moral and Conduct) System and guideline, can you share it with us?

• Finally but certainly not least, Isn’t SELF that controls all the bodily functions of the organism and MIND is the source of all human activities on “planet earth”? Is PESILAT EXCLUDED?

ISN'T THAT [L] IN THE WORD SILAT?


MY FEET ARE ALWAYS FIRMLY [IN,UNDER,ON,UP AND ABOVE] THE GROUND, INSYA’ALLAH!

[Narrue]

Indra Mudra, interesting name what inspired you to use it do you read the Viking forum?

Silat is just a Martial art like every other Martial art. A kick is a kick and a punch is a punch there is nothing spiritual about that. If you want to learn spiritual and internal aspects you don’t need to practice Martial arts to do that an example would be Yoga. Silat incorporated spiritual and internal aspects into it but I believe that they were mostly borrowed and at one time were quite separate. If someone has spiritual or internal skills it does not mean that they must have practiced Martial arts to get them. Silat itself is just physical.

[IndraMuda]

Hi Narrue and Others,

TQ for your interest in my nick. Refer to my earlier post to “Wali”. No, I am not in the Viking Forum.

Back to Silat, I respect your view, faith and knowledge. All the best to you!

As for me, I am practicing Silat, claimed, as “The Heritage of Malay Culture” based on Islamic faith – “Tauhid which lead to action” - guided by Al-Quran, Hadiths and Sunnah - inner and outer “self” defense.

It implies that Islam lifts not only the soul to the spiritual height, but also illuminates the body of man with the light of God-consciousness.

It aims at purifying both body and soul, for it finds no cleavage (division) between them.

Islam does not regard body and soul as two different entities opposed to each other, or body as the prison of the soul from which It yearns to secure freedom in order to soar to heavenly heights."

The soul is an organ of the body which exploits it for physiological purposes, or body is an instrument of the soul", and thus both need spiritual enlightenment.

Nice to know you! Hope we could have a healthy discussion in the future.

[Narrue]

Hello Indra

Referring to your earlier posts I do not think your Ignorant and nor am I upset by anything you have said :)

You asked me earlier what was the difference between spirit and soul. Spirit is the highest component of man and it can not be changed directly by mans actions, however the soul can.

The Spirit communicates to the body via an intermediary component called the Soul.
The spirit vibrates at too high a frequency to be directly received by the body so it must be translated via the Soul. The purer the soul is the better that translation will be.
The soul is not a physical thing and neither is it an organ in the body.
The soul envelopes the complete human body but has its centre or focus in the human hart.
This is why I asked the question “what does it mean to have a pure heart”; the answer to that is simply a pure heart is a pure soul. To progress spiritually humans must work on the heart (soul) so that they may receive spirit through its purification. You can not change, manipulate or work on the spirit directly. The most we can wish for is that light in our hearts.

All this however has nothing to do with Silat directly, Silat being just a martial art like every other martial art.

[Narrue]

I have to say I don’t believe that Silat owes its history to Islam. Silat is much older then Islam.

The body is one thing, yet it is many things, it is composed of one energy yet that energy has many manifestations. So how can it be one and yet many at the same time?

The best way I can describe this to you is to look at the photo of the spectrum of light.
When white light is split it shows us that it is composed of many colours. We can see the colours and count them but if asked to show where one colour finishes and another begins we find that we are unable to find that point of finishing or beginning, It is one yet it is many.

The human body is much like that we can say it is composed of many things Spirit, soul, body but if asked to show where one finishes and the other begins we find it an impossible task. So the human body is one thing composed of one energy yet that energy has many layers and manifestations.

[IndraMuda]

Hi Narrue and Others,

TQ for your immediate response and I appreciate it very much. I made some unintentional mistakes in terminologies and apologize. Following are the corrections:

• All word “SOUL” should be read as SELF/HEART
• The SELF / HEART that controls all the bodily functions of the organism of the body which exploits it for physiological purposes, or body is an instrument of the SELF / HEART, and thus both need spiritual enlightenment.

SELF:…...is the knowing, perceiving, abiding spirituality entity in a man. It is called HEART / SELF because it is connected with the PHYSICAL HEART, though the connection is metaphysical, it controls all the bodily functions.

TQ

[IndraMuda]

Hi Narrue and Others,

I have no intention in bringing this subject, but, since it has been highlighted by you, I thought, I would share this part of the knowledge.

I am not exactly sure whether my explanations hereunder have a direct correlation with your line of thought.

PLEASE READ WITH EXTRA CAUTION:

• Allah SWT created the Tablets from white pearl, and every day they change into 360 different colors.

• The PEN wrote ‘ba’ (the first letter of the Basmala) of ‘Bismillah’ and light spread out from this letter, from the Throne to the farthest corner of the universe. All was lit up by this light. When asked by the Pen Allah SWT answered: “THIS IS THE LIGHT WHICH I WISH TO GIVE TO THE NATION OF MUHAMMAD WHICH WILL READ THESE LETTERS, I BESTOW IT UPON THEM FROM MY ENDLESS BOUNTY”

• The letter “Sin” has three peak (teeth) and from each one of these a different kind of light issued forth: from the first peak a light which reached up to the Throne, from the second one a light which reached the Divine Court, and from the third the third a light which reached up to paradise (Jannah).

What it means:

”THERE WILL BE THREE GROUPS AMONG THE CHILDREN OF ADAM.

o FIRSTLY THERE WILL THOSE WHO VIE WITH ONE ANOTHER FOR THE PERFORMANCE OFGOOD DEEDS; THIS MEANS, THOSE WHOSE HIDDEN REALITY IS BETTER THAN THAT THEY SHOW OUTWARDLY. THE LIGHT OF THIS GROUP REACHES UP TO THE DIVINE THRONE;

o SECONDLY, THERE IS A GROUP WHOSE INNER REALITY IS ON EQUAL FOOTING WITH THEIR OUTER MANIFESTATION, AND THEIR LIGHT WILL REACH UP TO THE DIVINE COURT;

o THE THIRD GROUP, ARE THOSE WHO HAVE WRONGED THEIR OWN SOUL, THAT IS TO SAY, THOSE WHOSE OUTER ASPECT OVERCOMES THEIR INWARD REALITY. THE LIGHT OF THIS LAST GROUP REACHES UP TO THE PARADISE, (AFTER THEY HAVE BEEN PURGED IN HELL).”

• The letter Mim the light of this letter effused illuminated the whole WORLD. This is the light of Muhammad Mustafa SAW.

o Mim is the first letter of the name of Muhammad SAW, My beloved, the Prince of Messengers and the crown of all Creation. I have created the world for his sake alone.

For details:
“LORE OF LIGHT”, by: Hajjah Amina Hatun and Translated by: Radhia Shukrullah

Additional Note:

• It took 22years, 2months and 22days (22-2-22) to complete the decent of Al-Quran by Arch Angel Gabriel to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).

• Careful when you “Dated ISLAM”. Your thought / understanding related to it is not correct or not in line with Islamic teaching.

Wallahualam!

[Narrue]

•Careful when you “Dated ISLAM”. Your thought / understanding related to it is not correct or not in line with Islamic teaching.

What I meant by that is Silat was practiced a long time in Indonesia before Islam was introduced and therefore Silat does not owe its history to the coming of Islamic teachings to Indonesia.
I would say that Silat has more Indian influence if anything. Also same with the keris, it is not an Islamic weapon as I hear some people claim.

You seam to be trying to link everything in the Quran to silat, the Quran is not a silat manual.
I am glad that in the west silat is not painted with heavy religious overtones because it would make it a very unpopular martial art with the vast majority of people, including me.
It seams to me that this application of a heavy Islamic paint to an art which is not of Islamic root results in something with a false flavour and not true to its roots.
I think we should accept silat for what it is and its true roots and not try to change it into something it is not or was not. As an observer it is very apparent to me that those of Islamic faith are trying to claim silat as an Islamic martial art and invention….why?

I used light simply to demonstrate the difficulty with separating the different aspects of the human body.

[IndraMuda]

Hi Narrue and Others,

• I am not here to register claim nor argue with anybody about its history.

• I am happy though, in Malaysia, Silat is nationally pronounced as “The Heritage of Malay Cultures (Khazanah Warisan Bangsa Melayu)”. Likewise in Indonesia and even in most of old historical literatures. Thus, the root of Silat is not from Indonesia / or by the Indonesian, but, The Malays instead.

• All The Malays are Muslim and that is how Silat is associated with din Islam. Anything that related to din Islam must be in conformity with the Divine Guidelines / Regulations (“Divine Manual”), that is, Al-Quran, Hadiths and Sunnah. Failing which, it could not be associated or practiced either ways, outward nor inwardly. Of course, I don’t deny the fact that some muslims do deviate.

At this juncture, may I share with or offer you and Others, hadiths from our Prophet (PBUH) to substantiate the above line of thought:

• The sayings and actions of the Prophet (PBUH), which include what is known as the Sunnah, or his practice, are both as a matter of faith and, as a matter of fact, source of Muslim law, and are so by Divine Command and by the very nature of things. Qur’an is intended to be easily read, understood and encompassed detail application of the law is not its subject, and it is part of God’s providence that this should be demonstrated by His Prophet.

o “You have indeed in the Messenger of God a good example for him who looks forward to God and the Last Day and remembers God Much” (33,xxi)

o “Obey God and obey the Prophet” (5,xcii)

Refer: “Inner Aspects of Faith, By: Shahidullah Faridi”

• Az-Zukhruf (The Gold Adornments) 43: 36-37

o “And whosoever turns away blindly from the remembrance of the Most Gracious (Allah) (i.e this Qur’an and worship Allah), We appoint for him Shaytan (Satan-devil) to be Qarin (a companion) to him” (36)

o “And verily, they (Satans / devils) hinder them from the path (of Allah), but they think that they are guided aright!” (37)

• An-Nisa’ (The Women) 4:59

o O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the messenger (Muhammad SAW) and those of you (Muslims) who are in authority. (And) if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer to Allah and His Messenger (PBUH),if you believe in Allah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination

Methodology adopted:

Al-Qur’an
Hadiths / Sunnah
Ijmak
Al-Qiyas

Conclusion: I would like reiterate to you and others at large that I respect your line of thought and not interested either in claiming anything nor realigned any historical records, particularly with regards to silat. Please be free to practice anything that you believe in. To those Brother Muslims who are practicing Silat or claimed Muslim Silat or Silat Melayu which promises of all kinds of “powers”, do track the knowledge and practices accordingly (Methodology). I am here due to “Fardu Kifayah” !

TQ!

[IndraMuda]

Hi All,

God does not take away the knowledge of “true silat practices”, by taking it away from the hearts of the learned guru-guru silat, but He takes it away by the death of the learned guru-guru silat. When none of the learned guru-guru silat remains, silat practices will go astray! The sign is clear………

Knowledge always come first prior to practice. Nothing exist without knowledge!

What do you think?

[Narrue]

Hi All,
Knowledge always come first prior to practice. Nothing exist without knowledge!


I think in Martial arts there are two types of people

1. Practice to gain knowledge.

2. Knowledge so you can practice.

Let’s compare it to building a house. The first group of people will begin to build the house with very little knowledge of what it will look like when finished, how big it will be or how many rooms there will be. They just start building and if it falls down they learn from that mistake and start building again i.e. practice to gain knowledge.

The second type of person is not happy to commit to start building a house until they have full knowledge of the building process. They must know sizes, dimensions, materials, detailed drawings etc. Only after they have a good idea of what they are trying to do will they get to work on the physical construction of the house i.e. knowledge so you can practice.

[IndraMuda]

High Narrue and Other,

Let me try to interpret / understand your line of thought. The earlier is perhaps could be termed as LEARNED THROUGH MISTAKES and, the later, THE CURRENT SYSTEM OF EDUCATION. Both are costly and risky in their own rights.

Finally: Success or failure, Good or Bad, Satanic or Angelic, Positive or negative, day or night, male or female etc. are subjected to one creativity in the knowledge taught. It is finally being graded by the manifestation of one hands and the 13 joints..

This is what SENI in SILAT is all about. In the case of True Silat (HMC), The SENI is guided by the Divine Manual. Seni also means Beauty ect. Its manifestation is the Dressing, Tari, Music etc.

Thus, Knowledge (Theory and Practical) manifest SENI & Actions


Example:

“INNER REALITY IS ON EQUAL FOOTING WITH THEIR OUTER MANIFESTATION” …….. (What is the hidden in this Phrase? What is the “instrument of balancing? Al-Quran, Hadith, Sunnah, Ijmak & Al-Qiyas?)


A True Guru Silat is one who could guide to realize the Statement above.

A Malay saying: "HANYA JAUHARI MENGENAL MANIKAM!"

[Narrue]

“INNER REALITY IS ON EQUAL FOOTING WITH THEIR OUTER MANIFESTATION” …….. (What is the hidden in this Phrase? What is the “instrument of balancing? Al-Quran, Hadith, Sunnah, Ijmak & Al-Qiyas?)


A True Guru Silat is one who could guide to realize the Statement above.

A Malay saying: "HANYA JAUHARI MENGENAL MANIKAM!"


"As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he"

As you think, so will you become. We are all products of our thoughts. If a man believes he is weak he will become weak, if a man believes he is ill he will become ill. If a man believes he is an animal he will behave like an animal etc etc.

There is a story of a young man; everyone who met him thought he was extremely handsome. All the women in the village wished he was theirs. He started to lead a wrong life doing many bad and evil things. He left his village and after a few years returned home. When he returned home no one could believe it was the same man, he was no longer handsome but quite ugly.
It was his inner reality which had finally expressed itself in the outer manifestation.

As for books, there are three , Divine, Natural and Physical.

Divine, no thing ,one

Natural, the nine chapters.

Physical, a stone, four things one.

[IndraMuda]

Hi Narrue and Others,

TQ for your continous response and your spirit in discussing views……..

Quote: Narrue

• Silat is just a Martial art like every other Martial art. A kick is a kick and a punch is a punch there is nothing spiritual about that

• It was his inner reality which had finally expressed itself in the outer manifestation.

My question to share with you and others!

So, is a kick is just a kick and a punch is merely a punch and there is nothing spiritual about it? IF THIS STATEMENT IS TRUE, WHAT IS “INNER REALITY”? EXPRESSED ITSELF IN THE OUTER MANIFESTION?

[Narrue]

Is kicking a football any different then kicking a person? Are you saying there is something spiritual in the act of kicking or for that matter punching? Obviously the mind (inner) controls the body (outer) so there is a manifestation of thought as action but no more then there is when kicking a football.
If your talking about internal skill then lets remember that it was the alchemists which were most skilled in this and the vast majority of them were not martial artists as there has been alchemists in every country at all times in history past and at present. It is obvious therefore that such skills are not dependant on martial skill and in the beginning they were quite separate subjects.
The bottom line is that to have internal or spiritual knowledge you don’t have to practice or even know martial arts. Think of all the great spiritual teachers of the past and you will see that most of them were not martial artists.

[ICT]

If your talking about internal skill then lets remember that it was the alchemists which were most skilled in this and the vast majority of them were not martial artists as there has been alchemists in every country at all times in history past and at present. It is obvious therefore that such skills are not dependant on martial skill and in the beginning they were quite separate subjects.
The bottom line is that to have internal or spiritual knowledge you don’t have to practice or even know martial arts. Think of all the great spiritual teachers of the past and you will see that most of them were not martial artists.

Narrue,

Excellent point. In fact I know of many mind arts out there and most of them are surprised to find that some "Martial Arts" has the info.

Here are some things many may never have heard of that has nothing to do with physical fighting (martial arts):

1. Shamanism
2. Tantra
3. Sufism
4. Taoism
5. Hermeticism Alchemy
6. Rosicrucianism
7. Sorcery
8. Witchcraft
9. Chi Vampires
10. Shape Shifting

And there are others of course but this is a good enough list. All of the above practice mind fighting arts and all are capable of causing you serious harm.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

[IndraMuda]

Hi ALL,

Up to you to interprete the chart attached.

Hope I didn't make any mistake. I am not familiar with attachement command! If I did, I apologize.

TQ

[IndraMuda]

Hi All,

Hope by now most of you have digested the “Chart” and realize that our final outward act [ eg. Kick etc ] is not just physical or “ it is just merely a kick ”. Subject to individual’s terminologies and whether one realize it or not, every action or “Effect” has its “CAUSE”. As to the orderly succession, let it be understood that the events are “CONJOINED” like relations between the condition and the conditioned.

Certain conditions are very apparent and can be known easily even by men of little understanding. There are conditions which are understood only by those who see through the “ light of intuition ”. Hence the common error of miscalculating the uniformity of events.

There is a “ divine purpose” linking the antecedents to the consequents and manifesting itself in the existing orderly succession of events, without the least breach or irregularity. Only those “weak” in knowledge or understanding have misunderstood and misapplied the word “ POWER ”!

Ask yourself why most PESILAT in most of the forums that I have been into strongly denying the the existence or the relationship of “spiritual element” or “religion” or “POWER” in silat. Without “POWER” are we alive today let alone BERSILAT? Trying to cover up their own weaknesses in the total understanding of silat? Worse still it comes from a brother malay and muslim. Only Allah SWT knows best!

In short, Allah SWT created life, knowledge, will and action, on the one hand, and the other an order (a system) external to them. HE imposed the order upon the items.

[Moridin]

What I meant by that is Silat was practiced a long time in Indonesia before Islam was introduced and therefore Silat does not owe its history to the coming of Islamic teachings to Indonesia.

Exactly. And don't claim Pencak Silat for Malaysia as the root. Silat is such a big family, spread over such a big area and so old we can not say. What is Silat? Hundreds or maybe thousands of styles. Where does it begin, where does it end? Have any of us lived for centuries to know everything and seen all history? Wake up.

Everyone that truly knows Pencak Silat or Ber Silat knows that there are many cultural aspects to it that have NOTHING to do with Islamic or Christian beliefs!
Many aspects of Silat have to do with what Muslims or Christians would call occultism, witchcraft, superstition or maybe even devil worship! Other Side of Silat? You should have called this thread Dark Side of Silat.

Just because in some regions Islam is the main faith or became the main faith we can't say Silat = islamic. Islam is in fact a young religion compared to other religions. Don't claim everything, you haven't been around that long my brother.

[Abdullah1881]

hi moridin,

"Everyone that truly knows Pencak Silat or Ber Silat knows that there are many cultural aspects to it that have NOTHING to do with Islamic or Christian beliefs!"

As far as i know, Indonesia has an 88% muslim population with 209 million muslims making it the largest muslim nation in the world. Im sure this is nothing new to any one on this forum.

Since u TRULY KNOW Silat could u please share with us your KNOWLEDGE to validate your claim or maybe tell us which cultural aspects u are refering to in Silat so that we may increase our understanding of the subject matter.

"Many aspects of Silat have to do with what Muslims or Christians would call occultism, witchcraft, superstition or maybe even devil worship!"

I have met many Indonsian and Malay Pesilat over the years, and im sure most if not all of them would find that sweeping statement very offensive and untrue.

It is clear to me that whatever IndraMuda has written, he has done his best to provide the knowledge behind it as to substantiate his claim.

forgive me if i have misunderstood, but in your statements it is clear to me that you seem an authority in Silat, Indonesian Cultural Heritage and Religion.

For the sake of healthy discussion could you please tell us the knowledge behind your theories and conclusions?

[tellner]

One of the great strengths of Malay culture is its ability to syncretize and synthesize an amazing variety of cultural influences. There are pieces from India, China, Europe, the Arab world all added to old local traditions. Without that character Indonesia and Malaysia wouldn't be themselves. Kids learn Quran. People go to wayung plays of the Ramayana.

There are undoubtedly things there that aren't explicitly Christian or Muslim. There's a lot in any culture that goes on outside the mosque or church - despite the best efforts of the salafists and their fundamentalist Christian counterparts to destroy it. Animism, Hinduism, Buddhism and other indigenous practices have certainly left their mark. You don't have to use emotionally loaded terms like "witchcraft", "Dark Side", "superstition" and "devil worship". Besides, they aren't really accurate.

There are certainly people who go quite far in some strange directions. Sometimes it's destructive. Sometimes it's benign.

[Moridin]

Tellner,

you say it better and shorter than me. Thank you.

Abdullah,

1st of all. I am sorry for phrasing my words so that it seems that all Silat or styles of Silat have occult aspects. Sorry, i meant to say that there are many aspects that can be found with some styles and many persons that make this choice. I did not mean to make a sweeping statement nor insult anybody. Of course it is wrong to say Silat is generally involved with the occult. But you know that what i am talking about is out there. And it's not too hard to find either.

You can repeat how many people call themselves Muslim in Indonesia/Malaysia and you are right of course. It's a well known fact. So what? Is there no other history or culture even now in those countries?

When did prophet Mohammed get his message? How many centuries ago? How long ago was the Quran first written? Before people in those lands and islands practised martial arts?

Islam is not the first, only and last thing of that area. Before Islam came what was there? Nothing? Or did the creation of those lands and islands in that part of Asia start with Islam? Were there no people living there before?

Why should i tell you who told me about Silat? I have no need to brag about who i know or who taught me about Silat. I am nobody, not important. And i am certainly no expert. Besides, even if i never met Indonesians or Malaysians...there are these things called history books. I know how to read, so i can always get information about the cultural and religious history of ANY country at the library.

Silat is too big for any man to explain or claim. I am certainly not trying. Like taking grain from a barrel we can only try and fill our hands. No man can hold all the grain in the barrel in his two hands.

Peace.

PS Colouring words red for emphasis is...annoying. A word = a word. You don't need colour to prove you are right.

[Abdullah1881]

hi moridin,

Im sure it was not your intention to offend anybody. U came in with a hard reply, so ofcourse others will too. My intention was just to gage your line of thought.

Well you gave me the answer i was looking for anyway, I read your reply before you corrected it. I guess this one was better thought out. im sure u know the term "Lanka Mati" :D

Now u know why the Matadors use RED! :woo:

Peace!

[IndraMuda]

Hi All,

I DON’T MEAN TO DISRESPECT OTHER RELIGIONS!

IF THERE IS ANY "HISTORY" BEYOND THIS, I APOLOGIZE, I DON'T KNOW!

Isn’t ALLAH SWT (Sorry, I don’t know about other faith) is the first before even other creations (Including Malaysia, Indonesia etc)? Isn’t ISLAM His din? Isn’t Al-Qur’an is ISLAM? Isn’t the original copy of Al-Qur’an is placed in Luh Mahfudz at a place called Baitul Izzah? Isn’t Islam is first brought to this earth by Prophet Adam (well, I have no comment if science claims man come from primate lineage), through other prophets and finally by Arch Angel Gabriel (Wahyu / Intuition) to and completed by Prophet Muhammad PBUH? IS THERE ANY OTHER “FIRST” THAN “OUR” FORE FATHER PROPHET ADAM IN MALAYSIA, INDONESIA ETC? Isn’t Caine is the first to worship Idols and God of Fire? Perhaps the first deviation of Faith caused by Satanic influenced as Adam through Eves in the heaven (Enmity between Man and Iblis)? Isnt’t Caine is the first to be disclaimed to have any ties/kinship by his father, Adam? Isn’t Caine committed the first KILL which is the ultimate of Martial Arts or “SILAT” as most of you have defined it?

Can any one of you out there recognize the word “SILAT” in the above chronology? How does one knows the above sequence of events - from science or historical literatures? How does one know the existence of GOD in the first place……science, history literatures etc?

Lets us together provoke our knowledge of truth created by Allah swt!

[ICT]

Hi ALL,

Up to you to interprete the chart attached.

Hope I didn't make any mistake. I am not familiar with attachement command! If I did, I apologize.

TQ

IndraMuda,

First I could not see the chart it was to small and I could not enlarge it.

Secondly, let me try to understand what you’re conveying? Are you saying the following?

1. There is no Silat without Islam?
2. There was never any Silat in the Malay Archipelago before Islam?
3. There was never any other religions in the Malay Archipelago other than Islam?
4. Islam was in the Malay Archipelago since the time the Archipelago was created?

Just trying to clarify for my own understanding.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

[IndraMuda]

Hi ICT,

Once you open the file (Microsoft words) go to view command and click view 100%.

With regards to your enquiries, letus hear the view from others because it is already at the CROSSED JUNCTION. People are pushing me to the WALL! I now have to activate the "KNOWLEDGE OF TRUTH". I appreciate you asking it gentlemently and ,I promise ,I will let you know when it is at the right time.

Should you still have problem in opening the chart, let me know and I will email it to you.

Regards.

[Moridin]

According to the bible Cain or Kain was the first murderer. He killed his brother in cold blood. Out of jealousy. His brother did not expect anything because murder and killing was something nobody had ever done. He told his brother to go somewhere together and killed him. Maybe even from behind while he was watching somewhere else.

Kain did an evil, cowardly act. Silat is self defence or warfare. Not murder.

Martial arts is self defence or maybe warfare. Not crime.

[IndraMuda]

Hi Moridin,

Can u take my humble advise from the very bottom of my HEART? I LOVE YOU AND OTHERS ALL AND I DON'T WANT TO ACTIVATE MY KNOWLEDGE OF TRUTH.

LET ME TELLYOU, ANSWERING THIS QUESTION IS THE REAL LEVEL OF "PENDEKAR". PLEASE LEARN........I HAVE HUMBLED MYSELF FOR 40 YEARS IN TRUE SILAT .........................

PLEASETHINK VERY SERIOUSLY..........CALM DOWN PLEASE. THE ANSWER IS UNDER YOUR VERY OWN EYES BUT YOUR KNOWLEDGE IS YOUR OWN VEIL.

Hamba Allah!

[Narrue]

Isn’t Caine is the first to worship Idols and God of Fire? Perhaps the first deviation of Faith caused by Satanic influenced as Adam through Eves in the heaven (Enmity between Man and Iblis)? Isnt’t Caine is the first to be disclaimed to have any ties/kinship by his father, Adam? Isn’t Caine committed the first KILL which is the ultimate of Martial Arts or “SILAT” as most of you have defined it?

Hmmm

Eve gave birth to two sons Qayin (Cain) the oldest and Hevel (Abel) the youngest.
Cain did not kill his brother literally as you think. The word yaqam does not mean slew but means elevated i.e. Cain was elevated above Abel.
The Lord set a mark on Cain and gave a warning that if anyone should slay Cain vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold.
The mark of Cain is a sign of sovereignty i.e. Cain being the eldest son was a priest king.
That mark is known even today amongst certain groups of people.
Qayin (Cain) was not the first to worship fire but qayin = metal smith was the first to receive and master the science of fire as was his direct descendants e.g. Tubal-Cain.
But what of Abel? Abel = hevel = puff of smoke i.e. he never passed on linage and symbolicly his line was killed.

[IndraMuda]

Hi Narrue,

Very interesting...........

Now, do you realise that history literatures have been forgotten and Holy Books become the main REFRENCE!

Don't worry, I will make the manifestation when I received the correct "FREQUENCY".....INSYA'ALLAH.

Hamba Allah

[asli]

salam semua :)
knowlegdge feast!!
Everyone that truly knows Pencak Silat or Ber Silat knows that there are many cultural aspects to it that have NOTHING to do with Islamic or Christian beliefs!
coming from Malaysia, nobody calls silat as Ber Silat..silat is just called silat..funny what a book can cause a big misunderstanding..i guess book alone is just not good enough to give any resource justice..

IBA,
i guess to understand ur view is to be able to willingly to understand truly deep islamic teaching, otherwise it's pointless..what is Islam? what is Silat? go deep..
how do we move? who moves us? af 'al..i think i can see what u r trying to say, and im glad for that..but for those who are different in faith and believes, i guess it would be hard for them to digest what u have to offer..

well, in the end, it turned out a really profitable and encouraging discussions.. :)
salam

[IndraMuda]

WMussalamhiwabarakatuh

Assalaamualaikum Brother asli,

TQ for your appeance. Yes I agree with you absolutely but the truth has to come out. Somebody has to do it FINALLY. Otherwise we all in SIN! Please constantly check me of the path while i do it. Insya'Allah dengan izinNYA.

Again, Assalaamualaikum Brother asli

[Wali]

WMussalamhiwabarakatuh

Assalaamualaikum Brother asli,

TQ for your appeance. Yes I agree with you absolutely but the truth has to come out. Somebody has to do it FINALLY. Otherwise we all in SIN! Please constantly check me of the path while i do it. Insya'Allah dengan izinNYA.

Again, Assalaamualaikum Brother asli

IndraMuda,

The truth is subjective. What is true to you, may not necessarily be the truth to me.

The problem I have with your posts is that they don't focus on silat. It seems to preach Islam, with the pretext of silat as it's base. Please correct me if I am wrong.

If you want to do this, there is a Religion forum on this site, where your posts will be more suitable.

Nobody is saying that silat doesn't have a deep spiritual aspect, and I can assure you that I am well versed in the deeper aspects. However, these aspects are personal, and I cannot expect others to necessarily accept them as gospel truth, so I keep them to myself.

Let me ask you a question, do you have any input on any physical aspects of silat? I for one, would be very interested in learning about your silat training, the challenges you experienced, training methods, etc...

Regards,
Wali

[IndraMuda]

Hi Wali,

Your appearance always worry me. Am I going to be cane this time? :love:
Answering your question........Yes, I do. But I am focuss to clear The Name first......which is SILAT!

Regards

[Wali]

Hi Wali,

Your appearance always worry me. Am I going to be cane this time? :love:
Answering your question........Yes, I do. But I am focuss to clear The Name first......which is SILAT!

Regards

Hi IndraMuda,

I'm a big softie really... :o Let's be pragmatic and assume that the majority of people who take up silat, both here AND in South-East Asia, is for self defence. If they wish to pursue a connection with the Creator, deepen their religious life etc... they have Churches, Mosques, Synagoges, Temples, etc... that they can approach.

By detracting from the martial aspect of silat, and choosing to focus on the spiritual from the beginning, you are putting people off from wanting to establish dialogue with you. Also, you need to understand that no everyone is ready to receive certain levels of spiritual knowledge, as they are not in a state to receive.

The teachers I follow both here and Indonesia instill a very rigid PHYSICAL regime from the beginning, as this will help develop a deeper spiritual understanding later on.

So, will you clear the name of Silat, and put us all out of our misery? :cool:

Wali

[IndraMuda]

HI WALI & EVERYBODY,

Wali TQ. I m going for my Friday Prayer in Kuala Lumpur. I can't promise anything up to HIM as I have no POWER. Inya'Allah, if every goen fine, I will release it after comming back from prayer. Today is 17 Feb 2006. The magic dayi s supposed to be 18 feb 2006. Anyway I will do my best.

TQ.

[CQC]

What makes Silat varies from one silat style to another silat style is that it depends on what influences the spiritual approach in every Silat styles.Most of the Silat styles that are now deeply rooted in Islam or Christianity might once were deeply rooted in Hinduism or Buddhism.Some might still retain that influence regardless of time and era.

And yes, you can learn all the techniques alone while leaving the spiritual behind.Sure, no problem. Only that you will only get the techniques alone.Like in Malay said "sekadar dapat sahaja".

Look that when I said "spiritual" its not about the ability to do hazardous acts without injured, all that stuff.No.But it's more on personal behaviour, human thought.

[asli]

TQ for your appeance. Yes I agree with you absolutely but the truth has to come out. Somebody has to do it FINALLY. Otherwise we all in SIN! Please constantly check me of the path while i do it. Insya'Allah dengan izinNYA.
waalaikumussalam..
pls, don't call me brother..i wouldn't even know if i am even qualifies to be ur murid..im the one that should greet u cikgu.. :D
im still a greenie :Alien:
i dare not check cikgu IBA on the path..yes, maybe i'll put some opinions of mine..u r much on a higher level than me, how could i check the path? even im still searching mine.
maybe for some of the matters upbrought, i'll try to refer them to those who r masters on their fields, insyaAllah,then i'll guess the truth is nearer..and those masters normally r still traditionalist..some showed up, some remain quiet..and im glad i've seen a few on this site..
i guess every answer defines every person..
..ignorance is denial..
glad silat expanded to the whole world..thus some remain true, some not..and normally, the originalist will tend to disagree with the not..
the question is, who is "willing" to listen? who's willing to accept and who's willing to agree the disagree?

now what is silat??
the true meaning of it?

now there's even gayong? what's gayong? is gayong in silat or silat in gayong? and i dont mean gayong as gayong malaysia or anything(sorry, no offence gayong guys :o ) but simply as "gayong"..
ever heard the terms "ibu gayong"?

and no, im not one the gayong malaysia guys :D

to moridin, nobody suggested that silat is from malaysia..it's the Malay heritage..and malay are found most in indonesia,malaysia,brunei,southern philiphines,singapore,and southern thailand, some even in ancient times,covered until the kingdom of langkasuka..hence, silat could have developed from anywhere from these places..no one could claim it came from indonesia, or malaysia, or brunei and so on, because it come from the malay people.

and for muslim, all are from Allah..

hope this post'll help achieve another level of understanding of how (some)muslim malays view silat..

salam

[IndraMuda]

Bismil-laahir-Rahmaanir-Rahim
In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful

TITLE: THE MANIFESTATION KNOWLEDGE OF TRUTH!

As promised, hereunder is the "meaning" and "origin" of the word SILAT:

Brief:

To realize its origin, one must have the knowledge how we are brought to life. For this, I will make it very simple and brief as possible as not to lead to confusion. The subject matter is very complex.:

The revelation of the word could be seen in sequence in the following order:

a- Pre Life
b- Alive
c- Livng

• PRE LIFE

S-unnah Allah

The Command of Allah (Lord of the ‘Alamin: Mankind, Jinn and all that exists) is termed as Sunnah Allah. In short, He commanded all Angels to be present and to prostrate before Adam upon bringing him to life. Iblis and some of his followers refusal gave birth to the enmity between Man and Iblis. (Here is the original concept of “Self Defense” gave birth)

I-badah

The act of fulfilling Sunnah Allah is known as Ibadah. Therefore upon bringing Adam to life, all presents obeyed as commanded and prostrated obediently except Iblis and his followers of course.

• ALIVE

A-kidah

In short Akidah means believes. The first to witness Allah is Ruh. Before being breathed into the body of Adam.

T-akwa

When his Ruh reached his eyes, Adam opened them, and Allah showed him the Divine Throne. He looked upon the Throne and below it he saw two lines of writing: The first line read La ilaha ill ‘Allah, Muhammad-ur-Rasul-ullah upon. The second line read: The servant is sinful and the Lord is forgiving

[ A + T ]

• LIVING

L-aku

The first and the final letter in silat is Laku. It mean broadly as Moral and Conduct.

The first test: The Lord said to Adam: “I have created you in the the best of all possible form, and I have made you the Breath of Life. I have set you above the angels and made them bow down before you, and whom did not bow I have cursed for your sake., Then I have made for you your companion and mate, Eve, and for you both I have prepared Jannah 2000 years before you were created. Now I ask of you only that you do not go near that tree which I have forbidden you. I f you disobey and eat the fruit of that tree, I shall expel you from paradise and punish you with fire.” Adam said:”O Lord, I (have heard and I will obey.” In short he did not.

SUMMARY:

Only: [S+I] + [A+T] = L-aku ( Moral & Conduct)
It needs 2 Ma’rifah to manifest the 3rd.

[S+I] > [L] < [A+T]

ISLAM = RUKUN ISLAM [S+I] + RUKUN IMAN [A+T] = PROPHET MUHAMMAD SAW [L]



BIS-MIL-LAH, AL-LAH-HU AKH-BAR!

TQ

Hamba Allah
Haji Idris bin Alimuda
(IndraMuda/IBA)
18 Feb 2006.
Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia

[Narrue]

If that is what Silat means then what does Silek mean and which term is older?

[IndraMuda]

Bismil-laahir-Rahmaanir-Rahim
In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful

TO MUSLIM AND MALAY PESILAT & GURU GURU SILAT

I AM VERY SORRY. I HAVE TO DEFENSE MY RELIGION AND MALAY HERITAGE AND UPHOLD ITS PURITIES. "MENYUSUN SEPULUH JARI MOHON AMPUN DAN MAAF!

An-Nahl [The Bees] 16:125

“Invite (mankind O Muhammad SAW) to the way of your Lord (i.e Islam) with wisdom (i.e with the Divine Revelation and the Qur’an) and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better. Truly your Lord Knows best who has gone astray from His path, and He is the Best Knower of those who are guided”

“Serulah (manusia) kepada Tuhanmu dengan hikmah dan pelajaran yang baik, dan bantahlah mereka dengan jalan yang baik”

Hamba Allah

Haji Idris bin Alimuda
(IndraMuda/IBA)
18 Feb 2006.
Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia

[Narrue]

1. There is no Silat without Islam?
2. There was never any Silat in the Malay Archipelago before Islam?
3. There was never any other religions in the Malay Archipelago other than Islam?
4. Islam was in the Malay Archipelago since the time the Archipelago was created?


IndraMudra

I think its time to answer these questions first and then talk about your Muslim heritage after!

Tell me is SILAT a “Muslim Martial art” invented by Muslims. are its roots in Islam?
I already know the answer,just want to see if you have the dignity to answer it truthfully!

[ICT]

Bismil-laahir-Rahmaanir-Rahim
In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful

TITLE: THE MANIFESTATION KNOWLEDGE OF TRUTH!

As promised, hereunder is the "meaning" and "origin" of the word SILAT:

Brief:

To realize its origin, one must have the knowledge how we are brought to life. For this, I will make it very simple and brief as possible as not to lead to confusion. The subject matter is very complex.:

The revelation of the word could be seen in sequence in the following order:

a- Pre Life
b- Alive
c- Livng

• PRE LIFE

S-unnah Allah

The Command of Allah (Lord of the ‘Alamin: Mankind, Jinn and all that exists) is termed as Sunnah Allah. In short, He commanded all Angels to be present and to prostrate before Adam upon bringing him to life. Iblis and some of his followers refusal gave birth to the enmity between Man and Iblis. (Here is the original concept of “Self Defense” gave birth)

I-badah

The act of fulfilling Sunnah Allah is known as Ibadah. Therefore upon bringing Adam to life, all presents obeyed as commanded and prostrated obediently except Iblis and his followers of course.

• ALIVE

A-kidah

In short Akidah means believes. The first to witness Allah is Ruh. Before being breathed into the body of Adam.

T-akwa

When his Ruh reached his eyes, Adam opened them, and Allah showed him the Divine Throne. He looked upon the Throne and below it he saw two lines of writing: The first line read La ilaha ill ‘Allah, Muhammad-ur-Rasul-ullah upon. The second line read: The servant is sinful and the Lord is forgiving

[ A + T ]

• LIVING

L-aku

The first and the final letter in silat is Laku. It mean broadly as Moral and Conduct.

The first test: The Lord said to Adam: “I have created you in the the best of all possible form, and I have made you the Breath of Life. I have set you above the angels and made them bow down before you, and whom did not bow I have cursed for your sake., Then I have made for you your companion and mate, Eve, and for you both I have prepared Jannah 2000 years before you were created. Now I ask of you only that you do not go near that tree which I have forbidden you. I f you disobey and eat the fruit of that tree, I shall expel you from paradise and punish you with fire.” Adam said:”O Lord, I (have heard and I will obey.” In short he did not.

SUMMARY:

Only: [S+I] + [A+T] = L-aku ( Moral & Conduct)
It needs 2 Ma’rifah to manifest the 3rd.

[S+I] > [L] < [A+T]

ISLAM = RUKUN ISLAM [S+I] + RUKUN IMAN [A+T] = PROPHET MUHAMMAD SAW [L]

IndraMuda,

I think you are confusing Salat with Silat?

The word Silat is not part of Islam and you can not take letters and arrange them to mean something in Islam as your basis. I could do the exact same thing with Silat and any other religion.

Silat has nothing to do with Islam, period! It is a name for a fighting art and it is/was/will be known by other names. Is Silek or Penca or Menpo Islam, NO just other names for the same fighting art?

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

[IndraMuda]

Bismil-laahir-Rahmaanir-Rahim
In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful


Hi Narrue, ICT and Others,

My answer to your questions is very simple:

• SILAT has never being termed as Martial Arts. How could it be in the first place? It is an abbreviation or short form for: Sunah Allah, Ibadah, Laku, Akidah and Takwa. Is there any “martial arts” techniques in that? Hence, the criterion is very simple: Rukun Islam and Rukun Iman. And the religion is Islam.

• What it means by Inner or Self Defense is by no way it carry a meaning of “Internal or Spiritual Martial Arts practices” In Islam it mean “IMAN” or FAITH or “TAUHID”. Iman acts as a FORTRESS / DEFENSE for SELF or HEART or Intelligent Self from the Satanic Influence (Enmity between Self / Man and Iblis AS DISCUSSED EARLIER)

• On the other hand IMAN can be INNER STRENGTH. towards outward manifestation:

o a) High human quality and personalities in their day to day moral and conduct in their human relations ensuring healthy living and actas a deterrence to social evils

o b) IMAN also reflects PURITY of the SELF as a pre qualification for assistance (Rahmat eg Protection etc) from Allah SWT. Therefore in external physical defense has nothing to do with “martial arts techniques”.

Having said that, there is a highly secret “knowledge” that must be taught by GURU SILAT to amplify certain inner aspect, subject to Allah’s Iradah of course, in which I could not share it with you. In short, there is a lot of secrets in the Qur’an. Remember it is Allah’s “Manual”!

• In conclusion, I am not interested to get entangle into other aspects of Martial arts. I have done my part to share with all of you a long speculated source of the word silat as my understanding as truly practiced by the Malays. My concern is my personal obligations to Sunnah Allah and it doesn’t bother me about other things. Guess all of you can continue disputing an endless intellectual ego. I gain nothing from it. I am happy with my progress and for the last 40 years not even member of my family knows anything about it. I have to expose to all of you because nobody seemed to dare enough to defense their own religion and culture publicly. Therefore before I depart myself to Allah’s call, I felt, I need to do a world wide deed to at least register its true source for the future generations.

Hope, you are happy with my answer. I am old enough to be dragged into unnecessary and unproductive discussions. Whether anybody appreciate my sharing of knowledge, I leave it to all of you to be the judge. Your verdict is of no interest of mine.

I MAY BE RIGHTAND MAY BE WRONG BUT NOT CONFUSED!

TQ All.

[tellner]

IndraMudra,

You may be right, but I strongly doubt it. Silat, like the older Minang word "Silek", has always been martial arts. Full stop. Your bizarre and convoluted attempts to cryptographically and pseudo-mathematically equate it with Islam and in particular your version of Islam are at best delusional and at worst consciously dishonest. They're on a par with the Brookly rabbi who claims to predict baseball scores from numerological analysis of the verses of the Torah.

Balinese Hindus do Silat. Celebes Animists do Silat. Dayak Christians do Silat. It's just as real or legitimate as that done by Wahabist Muslims, moreso actually. If you can't accept the simple facts how in the world can we take anything you say seriously?

[IndraMuda]

Hi Tellner,

Guess you have got me wrong, It is by no mean based on any mathematical formulai or etc. They are used as a shorthand. There are Al-Qur'an, Hadith and Sunnah underlying it.

Having said that, you are free to accept it or not or even ignore it totally. All the best to you! Believed in what ever your feel right. I will be very happy for you,

TQ

[Narrue]

Saying SILAT is a “Muslim martial art” is like saying Stonehenge was built by Christians.

[Abdullah1881]

hi to all,

Funny thing isnt it, everyone wants do discuss Silat's deeper aspects. Yet everyone only wants to hear the answer that suits them.

As ive noticed over the years on all these various forums, (im sure some of you remember one of the early ones Pendekar.com) it mostly seems to be westerners posting. I wonder how come most Malay Pesilat never get involved or write? maybe their english isnt very good, although i dont think thats the reason.

Everyone is claiming to have a deep understanding yet no one seems to be able read beyond the words or look beyond the form.

I wonder if any of u have really stopped for a minute to try and understand what is Indramuda's message? I have met other old gurus who have this knowlege, and frankly if all this is unheard of to you its because they would never reveal it to non muslims or non malays. this is not one man's fabrication this is the secret of the malays.

Sorry to say but most of you are blind, straight away jumping and asking "Ok what about SILEK or PENCAK?"

If any of u just stopped for a while and tried to feel and understand what this secret is, u would understand why silek is called silek, pencak is called pencak, why the malays always use seni, why they use lanka tiga, lanka empat etc etc. U would realise the secret of the LAM ALIF that all the malays talk about and why they always display it. ITS ALL INFRONT OF UR EYES!!!

No point jumping and asking me in retaliation, im not as open and generous as our brother Indramuda, my secret is my secret. Most people who have learned this knowledge are probably astounded someone is even daring to write it.

it is clear to me that Indramuda is not propogating Islam nor teaching religion, but is just being kind enough to show you what the old generation of Malay Pendekar used to practise. Which sad enough to say will soon mostly dissapear altogether.

Everyone these days is really interested about the Wali Songo topic. this is the kind of knowledge they taught. they didnt teach people to move like tigers or snakes. Allah Swt doesnt send his saints for such things, they were Pious people, all they cared about was Allah and his beloved Prophet saw and how to teach people iman and taqwa.

look beyond the forms of the words, indramuda is giving so much yet no one is looking past their nose. he is speaking from his heart yet everyone is stuck and jumps at the first arabic word.

I thank IndraMuda for sharing his knowledge with us, many of us are reading with much enthusiasm.

I dont mean to offend or disrespect or belittle anyone on this forum. i do respect ur views and enjoy reading ur posts. im just speaking from my heart.

with love and respect,

Abdullah.

[Wali]

Hi Tellner,

Guess you have got me wrong, It is by no mean based on any mathematical formulai or etc. They are used as a shorthand. There are Al-Qur'an, Hadith and Sunnah underlying it.

TQ

And the odd sprinkle of delusion. Tell me, did prophet Mohammed practice silat? Is it mentioned in the Quran? Did his followers do lankha, jurus, etc...?

Why cannot you accept that perhaps the silat YOU have been exposed to has has a heavy influence of Islamic principles over the years. This is easy to believe. You must also accept that other styles haven't had this influence, and have gone a different way.

By painting all silat with the same brush, not only do you alieanate yourself, but to be honest, make yourself look slighty ridiculous.

Silat was, and still is, primarily a fighting art. Battlefiel survival was at it's root, and the spiritual elements added differently as things changed. It seems you have a deep level of indoctrination, and are applying it to silat.

This is the last I will say in this matter, and refrain from participating is such threads from now on.

[IndraMuda]

Hi Wali, Abdullah1881 and Others,

Brother Abdullah1881 TQ for your open support. I am very sure you are benefitting and learning from the posting. I am very sure to that the knowledege have reached your HEART and, soon, it will permiates into your blood sytem as a KNOWLEDGE which money can't ever BUY!

I dont blame them for not being able to understand it. Even a "wild bird", when it is too long living in a cage, it has forgotten how to fly and lost all the inner and outer senses that it used to communicate with various signs or elements in the nature of environment. Its natural bonding with nature has been disconnected.

Wali, Jihad is not 100% physical battle or war. The muslims and malays fully understood what jihad means. Intentions manifest actions! ILMU KEBATINAN is not all about pukulan gayung, kebal, handal, bomoh, mandi minyak, handling keris etc. Do you understand what it means by "it needs 2 ma'rifah to manifest the 3rd". What i am sharring with you and the others is only "one out of three triangles". Just to let you understand better, a true pesilat can even identify on paper how the whole cosmos finally fold to one small dot ie the beginning and ending. IS THAT KNOWLEDGE NOT SILAT AND JIHAD?

LAW OF NATURE OR "fitrah" HAS DETERMINED THAT IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR A MAN TO BE AT TWO PLACES AT ONE TIME. BUT ALLAH SWT CAN PROVIDES A WAVER TO HIS SERVANT WHO ALWAYS ZIKIR AND LOVE HIM. ONLY HIM COULD.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE FIRST RULE THAT YOU MUST COMMIT IF YOU WANT TO LEARN TRUE SILAT = IMAN > JIHAD > HIJRAH. SO, IF YOU HAVE NOT PASSED THROUGH THOSE PATH YOU WILL NEVER CHANGE!

Wali, do you realize there is a hidden dot in every triangle? If you realize how doyou seeit?


TQ.

[asli]

assalamuaikum..
yang dihormati IBA,
thank you for ur willingness to share those secrets..i guess a secret will always remain a secret..those who does not want to understand, will never understand.may Allah grant u health and happiness..

to abdullah
I wonder if any of u have really stopped for a minute to try and understand what is Indramuda's message? I have met other old gurus who have this knowlege, and frankly if all this is unheard of to you its because they would never reveal it to non muslims or non malays. this is not one man's fabrication this is the secret of the malays
i couldn't have agree more with u..it's a sad fact, but it's a fact..and i expect some denial to come out from this statement from some people..

for most people, silat is just another self defence/martial art..without even knowing what silat truly means..
nevermind..

[IndraMuda]

Assalaamualaikum Brother asli,

As a Muslim, we are brothers! Knowledge belong to Allah, not mine. Knowledge is just rain falling to earth. It will never finish. So dont be scaredof sharing knowledge. Learn this: Listen, Think, Understand, Practice and teach or share! Insya'Allah every one Ma'rifah Allah will repayswith 10 ma'rifah!

For those who understands the meaning of SILAT as outline by me above be resassured that learning true silat will lead you to High Quality Moral Conduct and LOVE. Trust Allah. If you haveany doubts, please take it to any "WALI" insy'Allah they will affirm it, insya'Allah. To the best of my knowledge, nobody so far either through my reading or unofficial discussions really knows about it. I am sure there are outside! I learned from "Prophet" Khidir story!

The nearest I came close to that is by Silat Abjad "Al-Sil-Silati"

Insya'Allah if Allah grace, we will meet! Areyou from Kuala Lumpur?

[IndraMuda]

Assalaamualaikum Brother asli,

As a Muslim, we are brothers! Knowledge belong to Allah, not mine. Knowledge is just rain falling to earth. It will never finish. So dont be scaredof sharing knowledge. Learn this: Listen, Think, Understand, Practice and teach or share! Insya'Allah every one Ma'rifah Allah will repayswith 10 ma'rifah!

For those who understands the meaning of SILAT as outline by me above be resassured that learning true silat will lead you to High Quality Moral Conduct and LOVE. Trust Allah. If you haveany doubts, please take it to any "WALI" insy'Allah they will affirm it, insya'Allah. To the best of my knowledge, nobody so far either through my reading or unofficial discussions really knows about it. I am sure there are outside! I learned from "Prophet" Khidir story!

The nearest I came close to that is by Silat Abjad "Al-Sil-Silati". Perhaps if care to check and connect Al-sil-Silati to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) because he used to wrestle. Connect it to my definition it will flow in. That will complete the definition. Too bad Silat Abjad stop at Prophet SAW. Perhaps the spirit is there and now revealed!

Insya'Allah if Allah grace, we will meet! Are you from Kuala Lumpur?

[asli]

waalaikumussalam wrb,
salam to all :D
yang dihormati IBA,
of course we are brothers, but i was also taught to hormat the elders, and the more knowledgeable people(org yg berilmu), so if u dont mind, can i call u cikgu?or pakcik? :D it's not proper for me to left behind the adab.

masyaAllah, the prospect of meeting u excite me!! if we ever should meet, i hope cikgu/pakcik IBA wouldn't mind sharing/teaching me some of ur knowledge..no, i'm not in kuala lumpur..im at malacca, working..and for those who wanna visit malacca, pls come..it's a beautiful state..the land of Hang Tuah the legendary malay warrior..also near mount ledang.. :)
Learn this: Listen, Think, Understand, Practice and teach or share!
insyaAllah(god willing)..i thank u from the bottom of my heart for this priceless advice..

[tauhid_87]

Interesting, Very Interesting..... I like how you explain it, it very clear, clear as a water. :)

Its very difficult to explain to them the true meaning or secret of silat, they will only hear you if your silat is effective, deadly & useful ( I meant the physical parts). I been practicing martial art for many years now, its really deadly I meant silat. I dont meant any disrespect to ALL OF YOU SILATER there. I am happy that you are practicing the most beautiful and deadly martial arts in the world. :rolleyes:

What I am trying to tell Indramuda is , they will not understand you if you cannot let them see, hear, smell, taste & feel your silat. They will never understand TAUHID (Union, unity, unite) my friend.They have to feel it, not in words or writing, you have to show them.......... What is you martial arts not just silat, ALL YOU MARTIAL ARTS combined in ONE. I Hope i got it rights Indramuda.

Salaam,
Tauhid.

[Wali]

Interesting, Very Interesting..... I like how you explain it, it very clear, clear as a water. :)

Its very difficult to explain to them the true meaning or secret of silat, they will only hear you if your silat is effective, deadly & useful ( I meant the physical parts). I been practicing martial art for many years now, its really deadly I meant silat. I dont meant any disrespect to ALL OF YOU SILATER there. I am happy that you are practicing the most beautiful and deadly martial arts in the world. :rolleyes:

What I am trying to tell Indramuda is , they will not understand you if you cannot let them see, hear, smell, taste & feel your silat. They will never understand TAUHID (Union, unity, unite) my friend.They have to feel it, not in words or writing, you have to show them.......... What is you martial arts not just silat, ALL YOU MARTIAL ARTS combined in ONE. I Hope i got it rights Indramuda.

Salaam,
Tauhid.

There is a misconception that Westerners are God-hating infidels, who only see the physical side of anything, and little or no spirituality or Godliness.

As westereners, we DO understand what IndraMuda is saying, but may not AGREE. His assumptions are based on Islamic principles, which are then portrayed as THE ONLY WAY. While this may be the way for HIM, it doesn't invalidate other ways, or make them incorrect.

As non-muslims, how do you expect us to accept that the only way to really understand silat is via the Quran, Hadiths, etc...?

It would be interesting to see how he would react if faced with an assailant intent of killing him. Would he postrate and pray, or grab the nearest weapon and try and defend himself with it? (not him specifically, but anyone)

I should really stop getting sucked back into this thread! :bang:

[Narrue]

I have said this before but I think here is an example of what I was talking about. In Silat there are a few who try and claim Silat as a Muslim martial art, not only that but the keris as a Muslim weapon. Now I know that this does not apply to all but it is the case.

Some Muslims are skilled in the art of gelek and try to use that knowledge of twisting to twist Silat so it will fit into their Islamic box. Unfortunately for them no matter how hard they try to twist it there is something called history and truth which prevents them from fitting it completely into that box.

Aali:

Maybe you should meet InderaMudra, sounds like an excellent opportunity to get brainwashed and perhaps join his “inner circle” Who knows where it will lead you. I get the feeling it will be somewhere EXTREME.

Inderamudra:

You said yourself that you don’t know about other religions and therefore you see the world through Islamic glasses because that is how you have been trained probably since a young age. Now it is almost impossible for you to remove those glasses and see the world without something in front of your eyes.

You talk about a bird trapped in a cage, I think you are that bird trapped which is singing (preaching) the tune your keepers have been feeding you with.

It is true that truth rains freely from the heavens, thank god for that. Maybe you should look up and let it wash the mud out of your eyes.

You talk about the triangle, if only you knew about other religions you would know this knowledge is known by many people of many faiths in diverse countries and from different backgrounds at all times in history, past and present. And no knowledge of it is not the property of Islam neither is it only known to those who follow that faith.
When God was giving out knowledge he did not give it to one race of people of one faith and keep the rest in darkness.

“There is no religion higher then the truth” and truth is the property of all that are willing to drink from that well and no that well is not owned by Muslims ;)

[tauhid_87]

I agree Wali with what you said, I dont care if you are a western, asian, european etc. as along as you are a TRUE MARTIAL ARTIST thats good enough with me. Indramuda have his belief that I truly understand but this is not the place to discuss about ALLAH .....eventhough I believe that my martial arts is connect to HIM.

By way Wali, if someone attack me, I attack will fight him that is very sure.......

Interesting thread.....

[IndraMuda]

Hi Tauhid, Wali and Others,

Tauhid; Look at that nick above you is it by coincident? :) Assalaamualikum Tauhid.

Wali,

Please stop knocking your head against the solid wall. Of course you will, again and again, being sucked into the thread. Without you, the cosmos won’t be balance. And the whole thing will fold as there is no longer any purpose to be served. The truth is always manifest it self with beauty and the sorrow always hang to beauty. Failing which Reason has nothing to function and no longer have choices to be pronounced. Hence who is Beauty and who is Sorrow is what freedom of choice is all about. The same applies between The philosophers and Al-qur’an. Both claimed they are the truth. The only different is the source of knowledge of philosophers is the intellect while the source of al-Qur’an is the Creator of the intellect.

Wali, Even we are oceans apart, I know who you are and I think you know who am I! The source is one but varies in purpose.

I enjoyed having you!

Regards

[Narrue]

Tauhid; Look at that nick above you is it by coincident? :) Assalaamualikum Tauhid.

The nick above Tauhid is mine, what about it?

[asli]

salam to all :)
Maybe you should meet InderaMudra, sounds like an excellent opportunity to get brainwashed and perhaps join his “inner circle” Who knows where it will lead you. I get the feeling it will be somewhere EXTREME
oh my goodness..someone is getting pissed off now..cool down my friend :D
emotional replies keep jumping in now eh..
aren't we all should meet indramuda, should the opportunity comes, for the sake of discussion, and to understand each other better..ilmu is something that u have to search, there's some with u, some with me, some with others..n that's one of the reason why i am here.. i dont have to be an EXTREME (muslim) after (if) i meet indramuda (which i know is not an extremist)..yeah i know what u mean by EXTREME..what damage the media has done to the muslim..
no need to get brainwashed there my friend..i have my own silat teachers, and thus i can get the idea what indramuda is trying to say..what im trying to say is, this is how malay muslim views silat(at least in Malaysia)..there's more to silat than just techniques..
When God was giving out knowledge he did not give it to one race of people of one faith and keep the rest in darkness.
if it is kept in the darkness, than none of you would be practising silat nowadays..kung fu/ wushu are chinese.kalaripayat and silambam are indians, silat are malays,and u can list others, well yes, different race, different knowledge, yet still are useful.. i hope u can get the picture of what im trying to say..duh, im just not good with words :D

wali, pls keep coming back..ur post is always informative..let us use this forum as a bridge to understand each other..

[IndraMuda]

Hi Narrue,

I didn't mean you. What I mean is the sequence of the nick that is: TAUHID & WALI in the same post Sorry! :)

[ICT]

salam to all :) what im trying to say is, this is how malay muslim views silat(at least in Malaysia)..there's more to silat than just techniques.

Asli,

What we are trying to say is there is more to Silat than Islam!

The 2 are separate entities not one. You do not have to be Muslim to know or understand Silat.

The island of Bali has Silat and they are Hindu. They have been practicing Silat long before the Islam religion came to the Malay Archipelago and I can assure you they know all the deeper meanings of Silat both physically & spiritually!

The bottom line here is IndraMuda is trying to convince everyone that Muslims & Islam has all the answers and one must convert in order to be a real Silat player. Well I am one who is not buying that message, good try but it's not working.

I have trained with Muslims and TRAINED MUSLIMS in Silat and they know no more or less than any other religious organization that practices or teaches Silat.

So I say stop trying to recruit us to Islam and talk more about the spiritual (Ilmu) techniques, philosophy & training principles and less on the sermon and this discussion will go much better because if I want to know about Islam I will read my Qur’an!

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

[asli]

:) salam..
ah, preaching islam through silat..so that's the MAIN problem here..take notice indramuda!! :woo: i thought that indramuda was only explaining about silat, from his perspective, not preaching islam..hmm maybe i was wrong, but it is useful to me..
i guess there's no harm in knowing extra information, from a different perspective, only benefits will emerge..
The bottom line here is IndraMuda is trying to convince everyone that Muslims & Islam has all the answers and one must convert in order to be a real Silat player. Well I am one who is not buying that message, good try but it's not working well, good for you! :rolleyes:
Indramuda have his belief that I truly understand but this is not the place to discuss about ALLAH .....eventhough I believe that my martial arts is connect to HIM indramuda, i strongly agree with tauhid this time..u have done ur part,explaining ur views of 'silat',so by now, other pesilat should have already take notice..whether they want to agree or not, it's a different matter..one thing for sure, i know it is useful to me, and i thank u for that..

salam persilatan dari pesilat melayu.

[IndraMuda]

Bismil-laahir-Rahmaanir-Rahim
In the Name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful


HI ALL,

WHETHER YOU REALIZE IT OR NOT MY EARLIER LAST POST WAS THE FINAL LEVEL OF KNOWLEDGE THAT ANY PENDEKAR CAN REACH. I HAVE GUIDED ALL OF YOU (MUSLIM & NON MUSLIM) TO THE TWO KNOWLEDGE (MAKRIFAH) LEADING TO THE 3RD. HOPE ALL OF YOU WILL BARE WITNESS TO IT. WITH THAT I HUMBLY WITHDRAWING MYSELF FROM THE FORUM AS I HAVE COMPLETED MY RESPONSIBILITY TO REACH ALL OF YOU,

I HUMBLY SEEK AN APOLOGY TO ALL SHOULD IN THE COURSE OF FULFILLING MY DUTY I MIGHT HAVE SAID ANYTHING THAT DISRESPECT ANYBODY. HOPE ALL YOU WILL SINCERELY FORGIVE ME ANY.

I ASK FOR FORGIVENESS FROM ALLAH SWT IF IN ANYWAY I HAVE NOT PERFORM MY RESPONSIBILITY PERFECTLY. I AM YOUR HUMBLE AND OBEDIENT SERVANT!

TO ALL MUSLIM PESILAT THIS IS MY LAST ADVISE TO YOU!

IN THE COURSE OF YOUR AMAL SILAT OR MARTIAL ARTS ALWAYS LISTEN, THINK, UNDERSTAND, AMAL WITH KNOWLEDGE. KNOWLEDGE FIRST BEFORE AMAL. FINALLY: UNDERSTAND THESE NUMBERS CAREFULLY:
O1234567890

ASLI: THE ANSWER TO ICT IN AL-FATIHAH!

With that I bag to withdraw!

SGT MAJOR: Thank you from the very bottom of my HEART for allowing me to post in your platform. THANK YOU!

Assalaamu’alaikum to All Muslim Pesilat
Good Day to All!

Thank you
Hj Idris bin Alimuda
IndraMuda/IBA

[keris]

Okey dokey, for what it's worth as a Western, non-Muslim student of silat, here's where I am at as a result of this thread so far...
Silat is practised by human beings. Humans are physical, emotional, intellectual and (I believe) spiritual beings. In other words, I have a physical 'self', an intellectual 'self', an emotional 'self' and a spiritual 'self'. As these are all a part of me, they operate as an interconnected system - each influences and/or reflects the others.
Whenever, and however, I operate, the process seems to include the following:
Awareness
Thought
Intention
Feeling (Emotional value or response)
Action
Review (Which essentially is using the previous elements to consider and make sense of what has happened).
The elements in this process needn't (don't) always follow this sequence. For example, Intention can influence Awareness and Thought, rather than Awareness always helping shape Intention.
I'm thinking that the key question is: 'Which of my 'selves' is most developed and underpins/controls the others?'
Clearly, a person who doesn't develop their intellectual self or their physical or their emotional self is going to be lacking some aspects of humanity, so I do think it is essential to develop these aspects fully. However, if you believe that you have a spiritual self - a spirit or soul - a seed that connects you to the Almighty, then I guess you have to argue that this 'Self' should be the driver of all our behaviour; should be the 'Self' we aim to come to know best; that everything we do physically, feel emotionally, learn and express intellectually, should reflect the spiritual 'Self'.
Perhaps our Awareness should be based on being able to see with spiritual 'eyes' and to hear with spiritual 'ears' - to ensure that our we do not interpret our experiences and interactions with others through our ego or our intellect only?
If I do have a spiritual 'Self' - a connection to the Almighty that can be strengthened or weakened (a relationship that can be built upon or ignored) -then surely that must be the 'real' self - the one my other 'selves' should be developed only to serve? If this is the case, then everything I do - all of my Silat, like every other action, communication, decision etc - reflects the level of my relationship with the Almighty, the state of my spiritual 'Self'?
A good friend of mine, a fellow Silat student, said last night, 'Everyone talks about the art of Self Defence', but if we don't know what the 'Self' really is, how can we know what self defence truly is?'
So, I'm thinking that every time I do something that only serves the selfish needs of my intellectual, physical, ego self etc, I am denying the most important Self within - I am developing gaps rather than unity. If my aim is to develop my relationship with the Almighty, then everything I do - whether it's a kick, a punch, or even a passing word to a stranger - either helps to develop that relationship or gets in the way of that development?
Too often, I feel my awareness and subsequent thoughts, intentions and actions reflect only my physical, intellectual and ego needs - quite simply, I demonstrate how often I forget my spiritual Self; my need to get closer to God...

[IndraMuda]

My Dear Brother Keris!

You Have "closed the Gap" According To your "believes"! Congratulation. Find the truth!

Iba

[Narrue]

:) salam..
ah, preaching islam through silat..so that's the MAIN problem here..take notice indramuda!! :woo: i thought that indramuda was only explaining about silat, from his perspective, not preaching islam..hmm maybe i was wrong, but it is useful to me

No the problem is not preaching Islam. The problem is saying everything in Silat comes from Islam and Islam is the only way. If you say that then what are you suggesting to non Muslims and do you think you will get a favourable response?


IndraMuda

You mention the numbers 0,1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,0. Interesting to see you never went to 10 but went back to 0, my understanding is that is the correct sequence and method. Shame we can’t talk about it, would be nice to know what others understand by those numbers. I know it is slightly different with each lineage.
The important thing is to know is that those numbers have been known to people of all countries practicing different faiths at different times in history.

[Moridin]

Yo ICT(Eddy),

I look at your photo and wonder;
1 Should your foremost hand not be on the other side of your face,covering your chest from where you can move it to block in any direction but especially guard your chest and not just your face?
2 Should your other hand not simply be right in front of your groin to guard that spot wich is so popular? (Especially in Silat or streetfights)

I know it's just a stance and not what you go into a fight with, but still, it seems to me your sight to the left is hindered and your groin is open.

[Sgt_Major]

It looks to me like a ripper parry, or elbow spear, which is the correct 'stance' for such a move.

:D

Indramuda: You are welcome to continue posting, I find your posts interesting, if not a little confusing at times :)

[Moridin]

It looks to me like a ripper parry, or elbow spear, which is the correct 'stance' for such a move.

That move needs momentum (speed) to do it's business. So if you're already standing in that pose it may look the business, but will it do the business? I've never heard of standing in a stance with the move already executed.

Stances are supposed to place one in the right position to perform the move. And in Silat, it's more common to hide your moves and plans.

I'd like to hear what ICT has to say. I'm curious because this looks "half" familiar.

[Wali]

It looks to me like a ripper parry, or elbow spear, which is the correct 'stance' for such a move.

That move needs momentum (speed) to do it's business. So if you're already standing in that pose it may look the business, but will it do the business? I've never heard of standing in a stance with the move already executed.

Stances are supposed to place one in the right position to perform the move. And in Silat, it's more common to hide your moves and plans.

I'd like to hear what ICT has to say. I'm curious because this looks "half" familiar.

I was probably just a "pose" for the purpose of the picture, and not meant to be representative of real application at that very moment... That's my guess anyway.

[Sgt_Major]

or perhaps the photo was taken during the movement?

:D

[Moridin]

I hope so. :)

[Gajah Silat]

Yo ICT(Eddy),

I look at your photo and wonder;
1 Should your foremost hand not be on the other side of your face,covering your chest from where you can move it to block in any direction but especially guard your chest and not just your face?
2 Should your other hand not simply be right in front of your groin to guard that spot wich is so popular? (Especially in Silat or streetfights)

I know it's just a stance and not what you go into a fight with, but still, it seems to me your sight to the left is hindered and your groin is open.

'We' use this too as part of a buah. Maybe it's just a technique you are unfamiliar with?

Think about it. To which side would the opponent be?

Maybe a picture of the opponents position would clarify the use and put it in context. There are many opportunities from this position, a limb destruction being the most obvious. There are some other hidden opportunities too ;)

[Orang Jawa]

Salam hormat,
Its not fair to judge someone by merely looking at still picture.....
I'm a silat beginer, they were similar pose in our kuda-kuda. When we are in a kuda-kuda position, we put ourself in a defensive situation, meaning we place our hand to cover the perimeter. Example, we veiw the incoming strike most likely coming into two area, diluar (outside) or didalam (inside). Therefore, placing your hand into a strategic place will makes the would be attacker will attack the only opening that you give and you can easily redirect/deflected the incoming strike.
And I could be wrong too.
Salam,
Tristan

Moral excellence comes about as a result of habit. We become just by doing just acts, temperate by doing temperate acts, brave by doing brave acts. Aristotle

[tim_stl]

I'm a silat beginer

a beginner in silat majalah, pak?

selamat datang di MAP. good to have you on the silat forum; i look forward to hearing more of your beginner opinion.


hormat,

tim

[ICT]

Yo ICT(Eddy),

I look at your photo and wonder;
1 Should your foremost hand not be on the other side of your face,covering your chest from where you can move it to block in any direction but especially guard your chest and not just your face?
2 Should your other hand not simply be right in front of your groin to guard that spot wich is so popular? (Especially in Silat or streetfights)

I know it's just a stance and not what you go into a fight with, but still, it seems to me your sight to the left is hindered and your groin is open.

Moridin,

It's a pose for a picture plain and simple! Thanks for trying to bash me and put down my Silat though.

To bad it didn't work!

Maybe I should have been more open to the Islam preaching, praised the Muslims for inventing the world and giving us Silat, then maybe you wouldn't have attacked me?

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

[Moridin]

OH BOY!

I visit MAP again after WEEKS.... and guess what? Eddy finally found the time to give me an answer.

Eddy, dear friend... i posted on the 19th of FEBRUARY. Where you busy or sick? Did you fall in love and marry a lovely lady? I had already given up on this question, really. But God and the internet work in mysterious ways. I couldn't sleep and came to MAP for some fun and knowledge.(true)

And you answered me TODAY of all days! Maybe i have some psychic talent i don't know about?

Look buddy, don't get angry with me. I asked you because i have practised Pencak Silat (SH) and your photo reminds me of a Pasang. Read my post and you get a little bit of a picture of that Pasang.

Not to ridicule you, i don't know what style you do? Sorry, i just had to ask, i am a curious person. Silat is so many many styles, HOW could i make you look stupid when i don't know what ur doing? Maybe i should have asked my question different.

Sorry, but i honestly am concerned about your groin being open. About the vision your first hand blocks. Yeah, yeah, i know a Pasang is not what you do in an actual fight. But in my style the Pasangs were the "key" to a set of techniques that fall under that Pasang. So i was thinking, bad habits can grow into problems...

I am not a muslim. I don't belong to the Silat=muslim school. I have no idea why you think i am muslim. I love bacon. I adore wine. Did i say anything religious at all? Maybe i am just a mean old Buddhist. Or a grumpy Christian. Who cares? I'm not talking religion here. I'm talking about your groin being open! :)

Sorry mate, no disrespect. I am still curious about your pose. Sorry if i offended you! But i do feel a bit insulted that you took more than a month to react. I could have been run over by a car in the mean time!

PS Just a pose for a picture? Why did you choose that pose? Humans do things for reasons. I choose certain shoes for reasons. I choose a certain song for a reason. I am a curious man. Please talk to me, i am simply curious.

[Sgt_Major]

I think you're looking at this too deeply moridin, eddie has responded "it's just a pose" - lets just leave it at that before any more insults are traded, and I have to release the twins :woo:

:D

[Orang Jawa]

I think you're looking at this too deeply moridin, eddie has responded "it's just a pose" - lets just leave it at that before any more insults are traded, and I have to release the twins :woo:

:D

Hoooah! Sarge! :D
Last time I look on my DD214, I was an E-5, a buck sergeant! ;)
Tristan

[Moridin]

No.

I am curious. And if he don't wanna say he can say so. I am interested. I am curious and i am asking. That is one of the things forums are for, no?

I mean is it so strange that i would like to know what style it is? How many photos of Silat poses do we see on this forum anyway?

PS Release the twins, and i'll release the problem child. :D

[Gajah Silat]

Mate, you do seem to be baiting from my perspective. A little less bluntness might ease things along :eek:

As I said previously, we have something similar in transition. Not an actual position as such, but..... :rolleyes:

It's not a prerequisite of all silat styles to have one hand in front of your nuts 100% of the time :bang:

May I ask your style, as you seem to have a blank profile?

[Steve Perry]

No.

I am curious. And if he don't wanna say he can say so. I am interested. I am curious and i am asking. That is one of the things forums are for, no?

I mean is it so strange that i would like to know what style it is? How many photos of Silat poses do we see on this forum anyway?

Certainly you can ask about styles, no problem there.

As a couple folks said, you can't tell much from a still picture. Could be that that opening you see was left there to draw an attack from somebody who thinks he'll have a free shot but maybe could get a surprise when he tries.
Certainly that's common in the silat I've seen. (Mine is Sera, by the way.)

You can cover high line and low line without having your hands in finaly position until you need them there.

[Moridin]

I practised Setia Hati in the nineties. The very 1st Pasang* i was thought had one hand covering your groin, the other covering chest/face with the elbow sticking out. The most important thing was the legs though. The distribution of balance and the advantage that could give for evasion and throws.

Of course there were more than 1 Pasang so not every Pasang had a hand protecting your jewels. But the teacher always emphasized protecting your jewels often. For example, he made us cover our own groin when (straight)kicking others. I think it's common in Silat to worry about your weak spots.

Anyway Eddie's pose just looked slightly familiar. But i can not know what style it is, or what pasang, what the "idea" is. Never mind.

*A Pasang is only for training and learning techniques that use that motion/position. Each Pasang has it's own purposes, and can be regarded as a step on a ladder. A neutral stance is always used in real fights because one can not know how one will be attacked. And because you don't want to hint the enemy that you "know" something.

[Steve Perry]

I think it's common in Silat to worry about your weak spots.

*A Pasang is only for training and learning techniques that use that motion/position. Each Pasang has it's own purposes, and can be regarded as a step on a ladder. A neutral stance is always used in real fights because one can not know how one will be attacked. And because you don't want to hint the enemy that you "know" something.

I think it's common in any fighting art to worry about your weak spots. It's easy to look at photograph and find fault with the position, especially if, as you point out, you don't know the purpose.

Is the guy leaving his groin open because he's an idiot? Or because he wants you to throw a shot at it and has plans if you do?

If you assume he's an idiot, you might get yourself in trouble if he isn't.

In a self-defense situation where somebody attacks you, it probably isn't a bad idea to allow him to think you don't know much, for the element of surprise on your part. But in our style, we assume that a potential attacker knows as much as we do, that he's armed, and that there are more than one of him. If you can deal with that, then anything less is a walk in the park. If you assume he's untrained, unarmed, and alone, and he isn't any of those things? That could get you killed.

Past the initial rush of an attack, if it doesn't end things, with players all alert and prepared, it becomes a different game. It's one thing to sucker-punch somebody who isn't expecting it; it's another thing to go against somebody who is trained and watching you.

It all depends on the situation. If you drop by our silat class and announce that you are going to kick my rear end, probably I won't fool you with a neutral stance ...

We believe that position and timing are of vital importance, more so than speed or power. A big part of these involve drawing the attack when and where we want it -- done properly, this gives control of the distance and puts us ahead of the game.

If a target seems easy, it might be. It might also be a trap and you need to be prepared to deal with both.

In our view, of course. Your mileage may vary ...

[Orang Jawa]

Brother Steve said:If a target seems easy, it might be. It might also be a trap and you need to be prepared to deal with both.
******
That is a word of wise, if I may say....
Is too good to be true means its true.
This is the part that a very similar between Stevan's Sera and my old magazines, redirect in the incoming strike and control the next would be strike or give the attacker's opportunity to strike at the place that we control/an opening. If you do it right, the attacker will not have a choice but to attack in the area that we left open
And I could be wrong too,
Tristan

[tellner]

Or, you don't have to be nearly so fast if you have a good idea of what he is going to do. The best way to do that is to "tell" him.

"Come into my garden said the spider to the fly." :)

[Gajah Silat]

Yes guys I agree. I think to assume that any opponent has got his (or her ;) ) fighting position 'a bit wrong' could be a dangerous assumption. After all not all fighters cover their balls anyway.

Lets face it, a decent boxer could take out many a trained MAist and they practically hand you their yarbles on a silver platter :)

Oh and Tellner, you're quoting one of my distant relatives there :) Little bit of my own 'pusaka'!!

However, the exact line is this....

"Will you walk into my parlour? said the spider to the fly"

And for Moridin it aptly continues...

"So he wove a subtle web, in a little corner sly,
And set his table ready, to dine upon the Fly."

by Mary Howitt 1799-1888.

[Moridin]

I did not assume anything about anyone. I am (still!) just a curious man.

And i am (still!) only asking for some kind of answer/reply about that photo.

To anyone else; thank you for your comments. I have no need for anybody to teach me about spiders and flies. I was thought ages ago about that. As i explained, i only thought the pose looked "familiar" and on impulse i thought maybe, he's doing something related to what i did. Nothing more.

So i am not talking about the pose, that was a hasty mistake. I just wanna know what style he practises. Maybe i will get an answer next month.

Or never.

[Gajah Silat]

Hey Mate, my great great Aunt really did write the poem!

OK. Let's assume someone has attacked with a left.
Step to your right. Parry opponents left with right hand.
Hook opps left arm with your left, bringing left hand to side of your head(don't cover your ear).
Punch to jaw with your right over the locked arm & clamp your hand onto windpipe.
Your can now grasp your own right arm with your left hand...

You've now got the attacker in a good Kunci :) Their left arm trapped & your hand gripping their throat. They are almost falling over backwards of their own accord.

Step back with right leg & turn. Opponent breakfalls with their head on ground :eek: .

Does that make any sense at all? Very difficult to put down in plain English with no pictures!

[tellner]

Elephant, that's very kewl. My most illustrious relative was a Transylvanian horsethief.

[Gajah Silat]

Elephant, that's very kewl. My most illustrious relative was a Transylvanian horsethief.

No relation to nosferatu then? :)

Only found out my poetic heritage when my uncle researched the family tree. Full of rogues it is :)

does the explanation make any sense?

Edit. Hey guys. I've now got a vision of you all sat in fron for your computers with your elbows pointing at the screen and punching & grabbing in the air. Well, that's what I'm doing anyway, er....hang on....did I explain that right??? :confused: :D

[tellner]

No relation to nosferatu then? :)

I think he was more interested in selling the horses in Hungary than in using them as drinking fountains. It would have been bad for business to waste expensive animals ;)