Silat-A complete combat system.

[Gajah Silat]

I'd dabbled in a few martial arts before Silat including one that I was reasonable proficient at. However, I always felt disappointed. All form and no action if you will ;) And it all seemed so...er..rigid!

In comparison, after my first Silat class I thought, "this is it. This stuff works".
I'd done hand drills, been on the receiving end of puter kepala, kuncian and limb destructions. Basically slapped around and plonked on my arse a lot :)

At last I got to practice a fighting system by actually doing some fighting.

Now further down the line the ingenuity continues to amaze me. Everytime I learn something new it fits with, and flows with everything else. That's pecahan, breaking open the fruit.

For me, on a technical level Silat is an incredibly effective and adaptable complete combat system that covers all eventualities. :D

Any thoughts?

Please keep this thread as a technical discussion dealing with combat only. No politics, history an so on :eek:

[Sgt_Major]

I agree. Silat is a deadly art, its fluidity is rare, and very attractive. I enjoy how the destruction of your opponent is total, there is no half-ways with silat. There is a start, and an end, and all that passes in between is like water.

[CQC]

Reading the posts here reminds me of how it was like when I was in my training session.(I'm in holiday right now,so the class will only resume after the holiday)

At first, we only watched our instructors who show us the buah,and later each of us will have "feel" the buah ourselves.(The instructors will do the buah on each of us)

Man, I miss all of those moments.I miss all of those slaps and punches and locking,chokes and the pain that came with it.I miss the hard,cold concrete floors where we practised and how my faithful kneepad absorbs all of the impact.

Although it is possible for me to practice the buah by myself (shadow practise),but I found it,kinda boring though (not that i would like to issue the challenge to everyone on sight just for practise)...

But I guess that's the only way I can cope with those feelings :cry:

again,sorry for those sentimental stuff :cool:

But yeah,for me Silat is either you love it or hate it.

[Gajah Silat]

To start I remember thinking. Woah, this stuff is just plain evil :eek:

As if a punch followed by an elbow, then thrown to the ground via a knee is not enough....after all that you can have someone drop their full bodyweight onto your face with their knee. Just for good measure like ;)

It can be proper nasty stuff :D

[Jawara]

As a practitioner of Silat for more than 35 years, I have this to say: Silat is what it is. Its no "better" or "worse" in terms of effectiveness than any other martial art. Furthermore, someone is either a fighter or he isn't, regardless of the style/system. A proficient judoka, karateka, gung-fu man, or jujutsu player with a mean streak is just as capable of handing you your ass as any silat player. So can someone who has had no formal martial arts training at all.

Throwing about terms like "Deadliest" "Most Brutal" "Combat Effective" "Most Fluid" etc. have more to do with marketing a product than anything else.

Years ago in Bogor, I interviewed many Sundanese masters from different aliran on various aspects of silat. Do you think that they sat around talking about whose system was the "Deadliest" or who was more fluid? It is the cultural context that gives the art its true beauty.

Too bad we can't seem to talk about that without degenerating into a flame war.

[Gajah Silat]

Aw come on Jawara :confused:

I don't think anyone was saying Silat is the deadliest MA! We certainly haven't turned it into one of those pointless xMA vs yMA arguements. However, not every art suits every individual. for me Silat works better and feels more natural than other arts.

I have never denied the cultural aspects of the art but surely not every discussion has to turn into an anthropology lecture :bang:

Can't a few guys just talk about their 'buah' with some enthusiasm for a change?

[Ular Sawa]

I think I was struck by the fluidity though, and not from a marketing concept. You moved different than any of the arts I had previously studied. I completely agree with Gajah on that one. I was struck by how an art that seemed so beautiful could be so brutal at the same time.

[tellner]

With me it was more the teacher than the style. I saw what he was able to do and realized he wasn't any sort of physical superman. If he could do it and said it was the training, then I might be able to, too.

[Jawara]

Aw shucks Gajah, now you made me feel bad :o Sorry, bro. Friends?

I agree with you about the pecahan. I always felt like the Cimande juru-juru practice was more about turning your arms into ground beef (although I found out how wrong I was later on) but I always enjoyed the pecahan.

The way we did pecahan over there was usually after dinner when everyone was drinking kopi and smoking up a storm. Someone would start talking about a technique, then somewhere in there a punch would be thrown, and then it was ON!

How is it in your class Gajah?

[Gajah Silat]

Don't worry, I'm not easily upset :love:

Yeah, at work..."what are all those bruises on your forearms" :eek: Must have thought I was some kind of self harmer ;)

It's just me and my teacher at the minute. So mostly we do contact stuff together, but I try to perfect my langkahs etc at home between lessons. (They're not langkah gajah anymore ;) )

Mind you I start a new job next week so I wont be whiling away my time on the internet. :cry:

[CQC]

(They're not langkah gajah anymore ;) )


What does the word langkah gajah means? :confused:

[Gajah Silat]

What does the word langkah gajah means? :confused:
Gajah=Elephant. I used to be a bit heavy footed :rolleyes: :D
Just a joke!

[ICT]

As a practitioner of Silat for more than 35 years, I have this to say: Silat is what it is. Its no "better" or "worse" in terms of effectiveness than any other martial art. Furthermore, someone is either a fighter or he isn't, regardless of the style/system. A proficient judoka, karateka, gung-fu man, or jujutsu player with a mean streak is just as capable of handing you your ass as any silat player. So can someone who has had no formal martial arts training at all.

Throwing about terms like "Deadliest" "Most Brutal" "Combat Effective" "Most Fluid" etc. have more to do with marketing a product than anything else.

Years ago in Bogor, I interviewed many Sundanese masters from different aliran on various aspects of silat. Do you think that they sat around talking about whose system was the "Deadliest" or who was more fluid? It is the cultural context that gives the art its true beauty.

Too bad we can't seem to talk about that without degenerating into a flame war.

Jawara,

I don't want to get into a pissing contest with you but you have got to be joking! Judo in the same league as Silat for combat?

All I'm going to say is anyone with any type of fighting knowledge or skill can be a formidable foe BUT that does not take away from the fact that there are styles/systems out there that are better for specific reasons than others such as health, sport, grappling, fighting and etc.

Silat is one that is specific for Self-Protection, Combat, Fighting or ever how you want to say it! I have studied and researched almost every style out there and in my line of work I need the best Combat Fighting Style available and due to Silat's movements, philosophy & techniques I find it to be the BEST at Combat Fighting hands down with Malay Kuntao coming in at a close second.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

[soulguru]

Jawara, ...Silat is one that is specific for Self-Protection, Combat, Fighting or ever how you want to say it! I have studied and researched almost every style out there and in my line of work I need the best Combat Fighting Style available and due to Silat's movements, philosophy & techniques I find it to be the BEST at Combat Fighting hands down with Malay Kuntao coming in at a close second.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

just a query- what makes Malay Kuntao diffrent from "Silat"? Indonesia has silat that has 'kuntao' or kuntaw elements (the De thouars family has been very open/vocal on this); my silat is Tausug Silat-Kuntaw of Jolo, Sulu (Mindanao area- Philippine isles): Kuntaw techniques fused with Silat styles from indonesia & malaysia. as it is, malaysia is a south east asian country- it has silat all its own. just wondering if its "Kuntao" you're pointing to is really hardcore chinese-influenced, with no smattering of our beloved Malayan arts... i heard it may be in the spelling of the word: "KUNTAO" supposedly is purely chinese; "Kuntaw" is already a hybrid- with Silat/Malaysian styles fused in to create a smooth-flowing yet brutal art... well, hope a clarification/info on this be shared amongst us brothers... thanks & Salaam...

[MasJudt]

I'll have to agree with Jawara... while not all systems are based upon the same goal (sport/combat/health) - a good player with a sadist streak is dangerous regardless of the merits of the training methodology.

I also concur that when I see people talk about 'deadliest', 'most fluid', 'most deadliest' etc. etc. or read diatribes about how 'you can only learn this from me..' - I just roll my eyes.

After 25 plus years of training, I've seen some amazing stuff. What I lack in talent or ability I make up in my ability to get around. And one thing I am certain of, if someone is describing themselves or thier made-up art this way... they are a tool.

[MasJudt]

Let me clarify what I mean by a tool.

I have no issue with people 'creating' new methodologies... whatever. This is human nature.

But when someone advertise that 'super deadliest, super special' art - who are you selling yourself to? Not educated folks, most will be turned away by such talk. Not LEO's, as thier goal is NOT to kill the perp. Most military folks chuckle at that, and go right back to Muay Thai or somesuch thing.

There is an old saying "The empty barrel makes the most Noise." And this often true regardless of school or cultural orientation.

Mind you, there are ways to extol the virtues of your method, but coming across like twelve year-olds is not one of them.

[Pitfighter]

Could y'all discuss some specific techniques about Silat. I know next to nothing about it and it's hard for me to visualize the art off of general discussions.

[ICT]

just a query- what makes Malay Kuntao diffrent from "Silat"? Indonesia has silat that has 'kuntao' or kuntaw elements (the De thouars family has been very open/vocal on this); my silat is Tausug Silat-Kuntaw of Jolo, Sulu (Mindanao area- Philippine isles): Kuntaw techniques fused with Silat styles from indonesia & malaysia. as it is, malaysia is a south east asian country- it has silat all its own. just wondering if its "Kuntao" you're pointing to is really hardcore chinese-influenced, with no smattering of our beloved Malayan arts... i heard it may be in the spelling of the word: "KUNTAO" supposedly is purely chinese; "Kuntaw" is already a hybrid- with Silat/Malaysian styles fused in to create a smooth-flowing yet brutal art... well, hope a clarification/info on this be shared amongst us brothers... thanks & Salaam...

Soulguru,

Malay is not short for Malaysia it means all of the countries & islands in the vicinity of Malaysia, Indonesia & Filipines.

So what I meant was that Kuntao/Cun-Tao/Kuntaw from South East Asia that had the Silat combat flavor was a close second and NOT a Chinese kuntao style from China or wherever that looked like straight up Kung Fu.

Hope this clarifies things.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

[ICT]

a good player with a sadist streak is dangerous regardless of the merits of the training methodology.

MasJudt,

I agree, just like a psycho with a knife that knows no fighting art is probably more dangerous than the above BUT that is individualism and not the product of an art/system/style.

I don't buy all the political correctness crap about all styles being equal!

Anyone that has had to learn a fighting style to stay alive or do there job effectively knows that there are arts better for this purpose and which is why these individuals seek out these specific fighting arts.

So my question to you and Jawara is then if all styles are equal WHY are you studying Silat and not Judo or Tae Kwon Do?

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

[Gajah Silat]

Certainly the style I learn is an excellent combat system. It is not just a.. for example, upright system. It covers all eventualities and is very adaptable. It does actually work and therefore in my opinion it is 'better' for me at least than other styles I have trained in.

On another level it did develop in response to other arts. For example, we have specific techniques to deal with Muay Thai attacks.

It is also very effective against a Western 'pub' attack, which is the most likely scenario for a lot of us. Let's face it I'm more likely to be faced with a drunken haymaker than a roundhouse kick on a friday night.

I was trying to start a discusion on why Silat is a complete system. I never said it is the deadliest etc. but it does cover all areas, whereas a lot of other arts are restricted to X or Y style of fighting.

It works for me anyway :)

[MasJudt]

I never said all training methodologies are equal, nor are they all equal in thier individual areas of striving. Heck, Silat is not a style, but a grouping, and not all silat are equal at specific things. Which why I really can't talk about Silat as a singular entity. There is great variety out there.

What I did imply was: do not underestimate anyone.


My involvement in this stuff is that it offers some good tools to put in my toolbox. It's good stuff. I've found good stuff elsewhere too, but this stuff suits me.

[soulguru]

...Malay is not short for Malaysia it means all of the countries & islands in the vicinity of Malaysia, Indonesia & Filipines... brother, i'm FILIPINO- believe me, when i say "Malay", it pertains to all of us brownskinned peoples in Malaysia, Indonesia, the Philippines and all other ouitlying islands located in the vicinity; i breathe So.East Asian air, as well as FMA & Silat, so you don't need to 'clarify' this to me.

...So what I meant was that Kuntao/Cun-Tao/Kuntaw from South East Asia that had the Silat combat flavor was a close second and NOT a Chinese kuntao style from China or wherever that looked like straight up Kung Fu... -again, it seems you're comin from a very 'occidental' perspective: most, if not a majority of silat styles from so.east asia have 'kuntaw' or similar tactics/techniques in their systems- whether they admit this or not; better visit some of the islands here in the So.East before you can say this. more often than not, true indigenous silat is very hybrid, so combos of artforms can be very prolific, whether its similar to chinese, malay, thai, indian, etc. combat arts. you therefore see seamlessness in execution. its just in the West where 'branding' can be so insistent (or irritating...)- even if its not warranted. if you visit Jolo (where the Tausugs can be found), you'll know what i say. to those who have done tours throughout the So.East Asian archipelago, i'm sure you'd agree...

[ICT]

...Malay is not short for Malaysia it means all of the countries & islands in the vicinity of Malaysia, Indonesia & Filipines... brother, i'm FILIPINO- believe me, when i say "Malay", it pertains to all of us brownskinned peoples in Malaysia, Indonesia, the Philippines and all other ouitlying islands located in the vicinity; i breathe So.East Asian air, as well as FMA & Silat, so you don't need to 'clarify' this to me.]

Not sure why that pissed you off but oh well! The way you asked the question needed the answer I gave!

...So what I meant was that Kuntao/Cun-Tao/Kuntaw from South East Asia that had the Silat combat flavor was a close second and NOT a Chinese kuntao style from China or wherever that looked like straight up Kung Fu... -again, it seems you're comin from a very 'occidental' perspective: most, if not a majority of silat styles from so.east asia have 'kuntaw' or similar tactics/techniques in their systems- whether they admit this or not; better visit some of the islands here in the So.East before you can say this. more often than not, true indigenous silat is very hybrid, so combos of artforms can be very prolific, whether its similar to chinese, malay, thai, indian, etc. combat arts. you therefore see seamlessness in execution. its just in the West where 'branding' can be so insistent (or irritating...)- even if its not warranted. if you visit Jolo (where the Tausugs can be found), you'll know what i say. to those who have done tours throughout the So.East Asian archipelago, i'm sure you'd agree...

Don't know what your talking about unless you don't understand that there is Kuntao that is pure Chinese Kung Fu with NO Silat what so ever! What I meant by my original statement was not to confuse people with these other styles of Kuntao/Kung Fu from other areas.

The Kuntao I refere to is from SEA and has the old school combat flavor whether it's mixed with Silat striking, stepping, philosphy or whatever it is not Jackie Chan type Kung Fu!

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

[soulguru]

...Not sure why that pissed you off but oh well! The way you asked the question needed the answer I gave!...Don't know what your talking about unless you don't understand that there is Kuntao that is pure Chinese Kung Fu with NO Silat what so ever! What I meant by my original statement was not to confuse people with these other styles of Kuntao/Kung Fu from other areas.

The Kuntao I refere to is from SEA and has the old school combat flavor whether it's mixed with Silat striking, stepping, philosphy or whatever it is not Jackie Chan type Kung Fu!...

hmmm...ok; guess i read it from a different perspective, thus understanding it in a manner different from what you were trying to bring to the fore- sorry for that. thanks for your inputs though...

[RAMANA1]

salaams,ive trained with several teachers in silat,and found pukulan cimande pusaka to have so many more elements to it,strikes,throws,locks,village jurus,weapons,animal expressions,.but what makes it great are the principles behind it,it is very hard to track the off timing movements and poison hand whipping,multiple strikes..i even once made the comment that the snake would not work,that it was awkward and useless..wow!!i was definetly wrong..sometimes you have to feel these things,not see them and form uneducated opinions...i highly suggest you look into this art,you may like it may not,but atleast check it out.............

[mild7]

MasJudt,

I don't buy all the political correctness crap about all styles being equal!

Anyone that has had to learn a fighting style to stay alive or do there job effectively knows that there are arts better for this purpose and which is why these individuals seek out these specific fighting arts.

So my question to you and Jawara is then if all styles are equal WHY are you studying Silat and not Judo or Tae Kwon Do?

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

Actually, if you were serious about 'staying alive' you'd put yourself first, before any martial art system. You would look at all arts objectively, and realise the shortcomings of all of them, and fit the pieces together.

i.e. 'I want to be the best fighter I can be'. There is a difference between that and saying 'Silat (or insert any other martial art here) is the best fighting style there is'.

[Steve Perry]

I never said all training methodologies are equal, nor are they all equal in thier individual areas of striving. Heck, Silat is not a style, but a grouping, and not all silat are equal at specific things. Which why I really can't talk about Silat as a singular entity. There is great variety out there.

What I did imply was: do not underestimate anyone.

My involvement in this stuff is that it offers some good tools to put in my toolbox. It's good stuff. I've found good stuff elsewhere too, but this stuff suits me.

Excellent point, well-said.

I think a better question might be: What was it that drew you to silat? If you were born to it, if it was what was available, then that is different than if you came to it for other reasons.

After thirty-odd years of martial arts, first seeing the silat that I now practice demonstrated was eye-opening and impressive. It seemed so logical and reasonable the way the teacher explained it, and it did things I didn't know how to do. I wasn't looking for another art, thought I knew enough to take care of myself, and, in fact, had turned down a couple of offers to drop by and watch a class.

When I saw the demo, almost by accident, I was hooked. The guy teaching it had moves I immediately recognized would serve to tie me into knots without him having to breathe hard.

After I began training, I learned of an old saying, "You don't choose silat, silat chooses you." and while that may not be true for everyone, it certainly seemed that it was for me. I couldn't not try to learn it, once I'd seen it. (Part of this was because I had made up a martial art for a book I'd written, and when I saw pentjak silat, realized that it was the closest thing to my ideaiized style that I had ever seen.)

Not the be-all, end-all that would make somebody into a superman, but it did -- and does -- have an efficiency than is better than the arts I had studied before. As you say, you ought never to discount the fighter because of his art, but I certainly liked the ideas and tools I saw in silat.

[serakmurid]

Have to agree with you there, Steve, although I was satisfied with the JKD, Wing Chun and Inosanto Kali I was learning, when I saw Guru Dan Inosanto teach his Maphilindo Silat blend, I was hooked! I really liked the harimau and BN we were learning, it had a very efficient feel to it. Malaysian bersilat is just wicked!
What drew me the most to BN at first and later Sera, was the fact that those arts seemed to use a different set of assumptions than other arts. Kind of like everybody thinking the Earth is flat with the Sun and stars revolving around it, and then suddenly someone pointing out the Earth is really round and circling the Sun.
Silat definitely chose me.
Hormat

[Gajah Silat]

Absolutely Steve, and being drawn to it rather than born to it, is spot on.

I actualy think that sometimes we are taking on a lot in terms of Silat & it's cultural package.

It is a different art to the more institutionalised ones we are used to. And yes, sometimes all of us that do not have the cultural underpinning knowledge, can get our terminologies etc. a bit wrong or mixed up, but hey, we're all still doing it so it must be worth it.

I 100% agree with Steve on this one. Certainly for me Silat fits better than all the rest.

[TheMightyMcClaw]

Jawara,

I don't want to get into a pissing contest with you but you have got to be joking! Judo in the same league as Silat for combat?

All I'm going to say is anyone with any type of fighting knowledge or skill can be a formidable foe BUT that does not take away from the fact that there are styles/systems out there that are better for specific reasons than others such as health, sport, grappling, fighting and etc.

Silat is one that is specific for Self-Protection, Combat, Fighting or ever how you want to say it! I have studied and researched almost every style out there and in my line of work I need the best Combat Fighting Style available and due to Silat's movements, philosophy & techniques I find it to be the BEST at Combat Fighting hands down with Malay Kuntao coming in at a close second.

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

It all comes down the to the individual fighter, though. I've met some Pesilat who I would place money on being handily defeated by an average Judoka. Of course, I get the impression that my experience with Silat was the exception, not the rule.

[shax]

can someone please tell me.

is silat and filipino styles such as rapid arnis related or siimiliar?

cheers

[Sgt_Major]

There are similarities, yes....

fluidity being a main one, attitude being another, and we both deal with weapons: knives, sticks etc.


But I think they are not similar enough to be easily compared.