A Wise Man Once Said...

[tellner]

Fitneh is worse than adultery
Words that many of us should probably take to heart. Hmm?

I've tried both, and believe me, there's no comparison :p

[Kiai Carita]

Words that many of us should probably take to heart. Hmm?

I've tried both, and believe me, there's no comparison :p

Assalamualaikum Tellner,
and Peace to all,

Fitneh is worse than adultery? In my memory the saying goes that fitneh is crueler than killing! Fitnah lebih kejam daripada pembunuhan.

I pray that we all are made safe from fitneh and killing.

Warm salaams to all.

KC

[tellner]

Different hadith. Same Prophet (pbuh).

[Gajah Silat]

Words that many of us should probably take to heart. Hmm?



If only :bang:

By the way Fitnah=Slander. Just thought I'd clarify for everyone ;)

Here's one "lain ladang, lain belalang"

"Different field, different grasshopper"

[RAMANA1]

SALAAMS BROTHER KIAI,ive seen you say a brother may be teaching cimande in u.k. at seven sisters masjdid...is this naqshbandia zawiya??i go to our naqshbandi mosque in burton(naqshbandi) when i get the oppurtunity...Inshallah i will get there more in 2006..i like all of your posts,very informative ,very honest,....what is the possibility to get in contact with brother in u.k. teaching??also i had a dear friend from sheffeild zawiya who passsed away last year and he taught silat,i want to get in touch with some of his friends across the pond..thankyou for any info---

[RAMANA1]

brother kiai-still waiting. :Angel:

[Taker]

Peace to All,

Talking about wise words, I would like to highlight one wise advice from a Silat Guru.

She was the Grandmaster of Seni Silat Harimau Berantai, and she once said to her students:

"I can teach you 1000 ways on how to kill your foe, but once you killed him/her, I can't even teach you 1 way on how to bring him/her back to life."

An advice we should always keep in mind. :Angel:

[Bobster]

So, I looked up "Fitnah" in my Islamic dictionary:

In Islamic tradition, fitnah refers, first, to the opposition to Islam experienced by early Muslims and, second, threats to the health of the umma. In Arabic fitnah means "trial, testing." Literally, trials or temptations that test the unity of the Muslim community. The term may be used to describe insurrection or civil warfare or, more specifically, to define a tribunal over doctrinal issues, broadly similar to the Christian Inquisition.

Well, okay, but I have no idea what an "Umma" is, so back to my handy Islamic dictionary I bought to have conversations with Mushtaq Ali, and I found this:

A community of Muslim believers. As a theological concept, the ummah is supposed to transcend race, ethnicity, nationality and class - all Muslims are supposed to be fully equal members of the ummah.

Moreover, it is believed that all of humanity was at one time ummah, a united group, until they fell into division and disobedience. Thus, the mere fact that multiple religions exist is considered by some to be a sign of human sinfulness because it is a consequence of disobedience and selfishness.

Then, to top it off, my good friend that I have never met face to face, Gajah, called it "Slander".

So, if I get you right, "Slander is worse than adultery".

Which leads me to say, "By WHOSE criteria"? Adultery is pretty frickin' deep if you are in a relationship with someone for upteen years and get blindsided by it. However, Todd's point isn't lost on me, I'm just maybe being a little argumentative because I view adultery to be betrayal of the lowest order.

But this is interesting to be brought up at this point in my day...I went to a muslim forum today & one post said "Don't fear the Kuffar". And let me tell you, it wasn't about universal brotherly love. And of course, I am included in that little piece of "slander", no matter how many Muslims, Christians or Jews I call "Friend", because I am one of those "Kafir", as I believe he was trying to say. I am an unbeliever. I am a person who does NOT submit. So, what does this make me in your (believer) eyes? If I eat a pork chop, drink a beer and love a woman who speaks her mind, what am I to you? Taking up space until Allah reigns judgement down? Just counting the minutes until this world is once again an all-Muslim planet, as it's written in your book?

And if I see you are distressed and I offer my hand and say "Brother, let me help you", what does that make me? A sucker? An infidel that, were the roles reversed, you wouldn't stop the car except to watch me drown? Just another white guy with no Islamic name whose going to miss out on heaven when the horns blow?

A wise man once said "On this shrunken globe, men can no longer live as strangers". "Slander" applies in more ways than one.

[Rebo Paing]

Heya Bobster,

It's not any persons place to pass judgement on anybody ... but we all do it ... even I do, and so do you ;) .

Stay cool, stay easy!

Salam

[Bobster]

Hey Kem, I know. This is my "Trapped at work at 3:00 in the morning" philisophizing.

[Rebo Paing]

Hey Kem, I know. This is my "Trapped at work at 3:00 in the morning" philisophizing.

Hehe Bobbie, 3 am sounds familiar. I work in the security industry. What's your excuse? :D

Salam and cheers!

[tellner]

Slander is worse than adultery. I've tried both, and believe me there's no comparison :p

The original point was in reference to one of the periodic mudslinging parties that crops up here from time to time.

[Bobster]

Kembang, I am a network engineer. In point of fact, I am the SOLE network engineer for an entire (large) company. Which means when the S hits the F, I get the absolute THRILL of staying all night to fix it. Luckily, I'm pretty good at this whole computer geek thing.

Todd, I know. You were indeed making a sound point, and the topic is one that just gets my damn goat from time to time. Often takes a couple of chickens in the process as well. I used your post as a springboard, and I apologize. I had been stewing about the whole "Kafir" thing all day. I see it as an excuse to treat others as an animal if they don't think as you do, & was trying to rationalize it in my head when I saw your post.

Anyway, yes, the mudslinging is something that always succeeds in directing your attention from the skill of a practitioner/teacher & pointing it to things that are often trivial and irrelevant.

There is one thing that I would take exception to, though. Remember that post by Serakmurid that went WILDLY out of control, about an article in IKF about Pak Vic's "Beyond the Tiga" thing? (Incidentally, since "Tiga" just means "Three", we could say "Beyond the tiga is Empat, Lima, Enam, etc"...Just kidding)

Anyway, remember how we all (myself included) jumped on his soul train about the post and let him have it, both barrels? I still stand by that. Not the more negative stuff of course, but the parts where all of us "former Serakkies" chimed in about the same man, from our own points of view. So I think, although it COULD be viewed as slander, it is sometimes a necissary evil. I wish someone had warned ME when I started with...Well, you know. I guess I could word that as "bringing up the negative points about someone or something isn't always slander."

[Steve Perry]

So I think, although it COULD be viewed as slander, it is sometimes a necissary evil. I wish someone had warned ME when I started with...Well, you know. I guess I could word that as "bringing up the negative points about someone or something isn't always slander."

"Slander" is a false statement that is damaging to somebody's reputation, spoken aloud.

"Libel" is when you write it down.

In both cases, truth is a defense against the accusation. Saying something negative about somebody, e.g., "He's a liar, cheat, and womanzier." is only slander (or libel) if he is not these things.

If a man steals money from you, calling him a thief is not slander, it is the truth.

"Adultery," by legal definition, is voluntary sexual contact between a married person and somebody who is not that person's spouse.

(In the old days, it meant sex between any two people who were not married, but that definition has been updated.)

If you sneak around on your wife, you are technically an adulterer. Even if you do it with her consent, you an adulterer, for those of you who are swingers. If you are legally separated but still married, same deal. Most places in the U.S., these things are not prosecuted by the authorities, but most places still have laws on the books that will allow such prosecution if somebody wants to get nasty.

Which is considered the greater crime, slander or adultery, depends on how you look at the world. Calling somebody a pompous idiot could be considered slander. Sleeping with your wife's sister is adultery. Which would you figure would be the more likely to get you your head handed to you if it becomes known ... ?

[tellner]

Calling somebody a pompous idiot could be considered slander. Sleeping with your wife's sister is adultery. Which would you figure would be the more likely to get you your head handed to you if it becomes known ... ?

Caught sleeping with Tiel's hypothetical sister? I think I'd rather be trampled to death by wild donkeys. It would be faster and much less painful.

[Mushtaq Ali]

Posting twice in one lifetime, this is getting to be a habit.

Todd,

The actual saying that you are referring to is "Gheeba is worse than Zeena" (backbiting is worse than adultery)

The full hadith is

Sayyiduna Abu Sa'eed (radi Allahu anhu) and Sayyiduna Jaabir (radi Allahu anhu) reported that Sayyiduna Rasoolullah (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) said: "Backbiting is worse than adultery". The companions of the Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) wished to know how backbiting is worse than adultery. The Holy Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) said: "A man commits adultery and then submits his repentance to Allah who accepts it. But the backbiter will not attain salvation unless the person against whom he has committed the crime of backbiting forgives him." (Bay'haqi)

Further, backbiting is defined in Islam as this.

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Do you know what is backbiting? They (the Companions) said: Allah and His Messenger know best. Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Backbiting implies your talking about your brother in a manner which he does not like. It was said to him: What is your opinion about this that if I actually find (that failing) in my brother which I made a mention of? He said: If (that failing) is actually found (in him) what you assert, you in fact backbited him, and if that is not in him it is a slander.
(Muslim)

Backbiting leads to "fitna" or strife and discord within the community and can destroy a whole community whereas adultery will usually just destroy a family.

This should be fairly familiar being as the Silat community seems to list backbiting as one of its favorite pastimes.

If anyone thinks that the backbiting that goes on within the Silat community has not done all of us great harm then they have not been paying attention.

And Allah knows best.

[kerambit]

Mushtaq,

I agree with you completely. They don't call silat the art of infighting for nothing. There have been fights and arguments going on as long as I've been aware of the art, since the old newsgroup days. There have always been several fights going on, between high profile people as well as between high-profile people and low-profile people, unknowns or relative newcomers.

The thing is, the high-profile guys get very offended when they're argued with by upstarts. So they have to defend their honor, and defend the art from the upstarts.

The problem is, if you're an upstart, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain by public attention from a Big Name.

Let's say you become a very famous and respected pendekar, Mr. Ali Shah. And I remain a relative nobody (hey wait, that's like now...) And I start my own silat style. You know it's complete crap and I know it's complete crap, but I draw you into an argument.

All of a sudden, my crap silat style gets a huge amount of exposure by virtue of your arguing with me. And you've just wasted some amount of your time on engaging in net arguments with some bozo.

I think what it amounts to is a cultural difference. The old guard guys expect (rightly) to be respected. The upstarts don't respect them, and in fact treat them (and the art) with the utmost disrespect. In fact, I'd argue that they behave this way intentionally, with full knowledge of what they're doing, for profit.

In South Asia, something would happen to guys who behave that way, and it wouldn't be enjoyable for anybody but the vultures.

Here in the US? They hang out a shingle, lay out some cheap carpet and set up a dojo.

Smart people will always be able to tell the difference. Stupid people will always be separated from their money by con artists and shills. It's my opinion as a rank beginner that the people who are legitimate are better off just ignoring the buzzing flies.

"Never argue with an idiot. He'll just bring you down to his level and win by experience."

[Rebo Paing]

Rahayu everyone on this thread,
In my opinion people will become unhappy if they believe that something or an idea that is important to them is diminished in some way, in this context I guess it would be the idea that something with history is somehow marred by the claims of an upstart and vice-versa the younger believe they have the where-with-all.
In other words ... chest thumping doesn't win friends and often alienates people. The problem is that both sides tend to thump there respective chests and any chance of objectivity quickly vanishes out the window.
Old is not guaranteed to be quality, and new is not guaranteed to be crappy. Even so, sometimes in this world people make claims to which they might not have any. This is guaranteed to produce the counter-effect of the people who defend the good name of the original.

Really, so that the cycle of fitnah and in-fighting dies ... we could look to ourselves and honestly ask what our silat means to us as an individual.
Just learn to let go, for silat is for our own development.
Unfortunately it its easy to succumb to the temptation to use silat to inflate our egos (especially on the Internet where we can all be invincible warriors ;) ). We all know the feeling when we do that.

I believe the core of all truths lies within ourselves :eek: .

Salam

[Steve Perry]

Smart people will always be able to tell the difference. Stupid people will always be separated from their money by con artists and shills. It's my opinion as a rank beginner that the people who are legitimate are better off just ignoring the buzzing flies.

"Never argue with an idiot. He'll just bring you down to his level and win by experience."

I think I understand the intent here, but I would offer a slightly different viewpoint or two:

First, you can not know something because you have no experience with it. This is not necessarily stupidity, it can be simple ignorance. This is easily to cure, you merely apply knowledge.

Second, Edmund Burke's Dictum: The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

If you see a child about to pick up an asp because he doesn't know the snake is poisonous and can kill him, you can stand by and do nothing if that is the kind of person you are. No law says you must warn him, and you may not believe in sins of omission.

If the boy knows the snake is deadly and knows what death is and he still wants to grab it, that's a different situation -- that's stupid.

If someone stands up and slanders me or somebody I know, I can let it pass; however, by so doing, that might allow others to believe such a lie is true. If it wasn't then surely somebody would say so, right?

[Mushtaq Ali]

Mushtaq,

I agree with you completely. They don't call silat the art of infighting for nothing. There have been fights and arguments going on as long as I've been aware of the art, since the old newsgroup days. There have always been several fights going on, between high profile people as well as between high-profile people and low-profile people, unknowns or relative newcomers.

The thing is, the high-profile guys get very offended when they're argued with by upstarts. So they have to defend their honor, and defend the art from the upstarts.

kerambit,

What you say mirrors my own experience a great deal, though over the years I have see some of the high profile guys start as much problems as some of the low profile guys.

The problem is, if you're an upstart, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain by public attention from a Big Name.

All too true. I suppose one reason for the big names to want to keep everyone else down might be economics. I have suspected from time to time that one or two of the big names in our community might attack people in order to keep the competition down, a phenomena that used to be known as "protecting one's rice bowl".

When I see Gheeba coming from a big name, usually the first thing I want to know is "do they make all their income from teaching Silat?"

Let's say you become a very famous and respected pendekar, Mr. Ali Shah

May Allah t'ala protect me from such a dire fate.

And I remain a relative nobody (hey wait, that's like now...) And I start my own silat style. You know it's complete crap and I know it's complete crap, but I draw you into an argument.

For the sake of this discussion, how do I know that what you are doing is crap? Were you my student for any length of time? Have my students or I met you in any meaningful form of competition? How is it that I judge you as being crap? How much of my ego is tied up in that judgment?

All of a sudden, my crap silat style gets a huge amount of exposure by virtue of your arguing with me. And you've just wasted some amount of your time on engaging in net arguments with some bozo.

For me the exposure part means less than the wasting time part. As you get older you will understand that a lot more :)

I like to think though that I have developed enough maturity in my art and as a person that I will be smart enough not to engage in such a transparent ploy

I think what it amounts to is a cultural difference. The old guard guys expect (rightly) to be respected. The upstarts don't respect them, and in fact treat them (and the art) with the utmost disrespect. In fact, I'd argue that they behave this way intentionally, with full knowledge of what they're doing, for profit.

To an extent I have to agree with you, there is a lack of respect sometimes shown by the younger to the older. (being one of the older I notice these things :D )On the other hand, a few of the old guard have proved themselves to be entirely reprehensible in their behavior. A certain amount of respect is due just because of having survived in the art for long enough to have become a teacher. The rest of the respect though comes from merit. If some of the old guard act like petulant children. or as if they have been eating mercury soaked tuna their whole lives, or misrepresent themselves as to their training, education,or history and then attack others because they are competition in some way, then they are not deserving of any great respect in my book.

Even in these cases though, the backbiting we see going on serves no value other than to make silat something of a joke in the martial arts world.

In South Asia, something would happen to guys who behave that way, and it wouldn't be enjoyable for anybody but the vultures.

I have to say that I have seen this sort of thing go on in Indonesia more than one would suspect. Though the cultural differences make it look a bit different than what we see here.

Here in the US? They hang out a shingle, lay out some cheap carpet and set up a dojo.

All too true. Though for every Silat style and teacher I bet I could find someone else who would put him or her in the category you have just mentioned :)

Smart people will always be able to tell the difference. Stupid people will always be separated from their money by con artists and shills. It's my opinion as a rank beginner that the people who are legitimate are better off just ignoring the buzzing flies.

"Never argue with an idiot. He'll just bring you down to his level and win by experience."

I wish more people though this way, we would all be better off I think.




Really, so that the cycle of fitnah and in-fighting dies ... we could look to ourselves and honestly ask what our silat means to us as an individual.
Just learn to let go, for silat is for our own development.
Unfortunately it its easy to succumb to the temptation to use silat to inflate our egos (especially on the Internet where we can all be invincible warriors ;) ). We all know the feeling when we do that.

I believe the core of all truths lies within ourselves :eek: .


Again, I wish more people had your perspective as well.



If someone stands up and slanders me or somebody I know, I can let it pass; however, by so doing, that might allow others to believe such a lie is true. If it wasn't then surely somebody would say so, right?

The thing is Steve, in all the years I have known you I have never once seen you stoop to backbiting or personal attacks.

When you challenge someone it is always fact based, logical and conforms to the rules of critical thinking. (and you are always polite unless sorely provoked, often even then) That is a whole different animal than what we are talking about here.

If people kept discussions at that level then we would all be happier I think.

[kerambit]

When I see Gheeba coming from a big name, usually the first thing I want to know is "do they make all their income from teaching Silat?"
Not charging for training is a great way to make sure you're not whoring the art. When I teach, which is rare, I teach for a beer when we hang out afterwards. On the other hand, we want very experienced and knowledgeable people to continue to teach, so they do have a right to charge for classes. At one time, the experienced people had a monopoly on knowledge. That's not so much the case anymore. That's the problem with teaching.

If someone stands up and slanders me or somebody I know, I can let it pass; however, by so doing, that might allow others to believe such a lie is true. If it wasn't then surely somebody would say so, right?What if they don't care? What if you know they don't care and you also know that no matter what you say they'll keep doing exactly what they're doing? What if you know that if you say something, they'll embrace that asp even tighter out of perversity?

I've had this discussion on and off with students, usually intelligent and in their early 20s, where they want to tell me that aikido is the most awesome art or tai chi is the most awesome art because you can vanquish numerous assailants without harming them or breaking a sweat. I used to try to tell them the error of their ways. Now I just say "Whatever." The reason isn't because they're right, it's because by arguing with them, it makes them think that we're just two guys arguing and therefore equal in knowledge, which is not correct.

[Orang Jawa]

Not charging for training is a great way to make sure you're not whoring the art. When I teach, which is rare, I teach for a beer when we hang out afterwards. On the other hand, we want very experienced and knowledgeable people to continue to teach, so they do have a right to charge for classes. At one time, the experienced people had a monopoly on knowledge. That's not so much the case anymore. That's the problem with teaching.

Hmmmm, you are sound so familiar :)
I teach for food say to speak :) it is our tradition. We trained for 3-4 hours and then we went out to eat and drink a little.
Well a teacher have the responsibiltiy to teach and a student have the responsibility to learn. If both party doing their jobs. It should be no problem. The current problem is very complex, I think?
Some teacher pretending to have all the knowledges and experiences but the more you look at them, the more you will find many hole on it.
And many students think they can learn in a quick training session, one or two seminar and then looking for more moves or techniques. Traditional teacher knows this very well. Either he pretend not aware and started to give the students more and more knowing that the students will eventually make a fool of themselves. Or the teacher will keep repeating the techniques until he satisfied that the student have it before they are move to the next techniques. I can assure you that the later is very RARE.

I've had this discussion on and off with students, usually intelligent and in their early 20s, where they want to tell me that aikido is the most awesome art or tai chi is the most awesome art because you can vanquish numerous assailants without harming them or breaking a sweat. I used to try to tell them the error of their ways. Now I just say "Whatever." The reason isn't because they're right, it's because by arguing with them, it makes them think that we're just two guys arguing and therefore equal in knowledge, which is not correct.

There is no wrong or right martial system, it just different!
The best thing to do is to compare and contrast it. Let your student attack you and show them how aikijutsu guy would respond, how karate guy would respond and how the silat guy would respond. This way your student understand the different, without judging the negativity of the techniques.
Last but not least..... I'm singing now :)
C'mon people now
Smile on your brother, everybody get together
To try to love one another right now
Tristan

[Orang Jawa]

Assalamualaikum WW, Mustaq
Thank you for sharing. I wish I can be as wise as you in interpreted the hadith. Insya Allah!
Sometimes I reflect myself. Why I have survived many life threatning situations. I can easily answer it by telling myself, I'm the luckiest person on earth or Its not my times or God spared my life so I can redeem myself to Allah. As I got older, the later seemed more reasonable. Alhamdullilah.
Warm regards,
Tristan

[tellner]

Thanks for the correction and complete quote, Mushtaq.

[Steve Perry]

What if they don't care? What if you know they don't care and you also know that no matter what you say they'll keep doing exactly what they're doing? What if you know that if you say something, they'll embrace that asp even tighter out of perversity?

By that logic, if a guy up and robs a market, then shoots somebody and he doesn't care what society thinks of his actions, we should just shrug it off and let it go?

Nope, for me, part of the idea of balance is that when people stand by and do nothing, they run the risk of being railroaded. Our country went to war, even though a lot of folks in it did not want to, me included. Perhaps if more had protested, it might not have happened. Two-thirds of the people in my country do not support this war currently, they believe it was and is a mistake, and yet, we are bogged down in it.

If you think standing by and allowing folks to do things that are immoral or illegal is okay, that's your right, of course.

If I don't stand up when it's the right thing to do, I don't get to gripe about it. If I don't vote in an election, I have relinquished my right to grumble about the winner of the election. I believe we have certain responsibilities to our society, and one of those is to at least speak our minds.

I don't suppose I can begin to cure mankind's ills, but now and then, I can pick a spot and stand there and at least voice what I believe to be true. if people want grab the snake anyhow, they can, but at least I will have made an effort to help.

Shrugging it off and saying it won't matter what I say doesn't do it for me.

[Gajah Silat]

Ya Tuhan, I'm staying out of this one...I get taught for for free :p

And a Northern UK saying for Y'all...."least said, soonest mended"

Peace to All,

Talking about wise words, I would like to highlight one wise advice from a Silat Guru.

She was the Grandmaster of Seni Silat Harimau Berantai, and she once said to her students:

"I can teach you 1000 ways on how to kill your foe, but once you killed him/her, I can't even teach you 1 way on how to bring him/her back to life."

An advice we should always keep in mind. :Angel:

Mas Taker,

I do believe they are the words of Mak Intan??

Do we have another chained tiger in our midst?

Hormat

GS

[sulaiman]

[QUOTE=Bobster]So, I looked up "Fitnah" in my Islamic dictionary:

But this is interesting to be brought up at this point in my day...I went to a muslim forum today & one post said "Don't fear the Kuffar". And let me tell you, it wasn't about universal brotherly love. And of course, I am included in that little piece of "slander", no matter how many Muslims, Christians or Jews I call "Friend", because I am one of those "Kafir", as I believe he was trying to say. I am an unbeliever. I am a person who does NOT submit. So, what does this make me in your (believer) eyes? If I eat a pork chop, drink a beer and love a woman who speaks her mind, what am I to you? Taking up space until Allah reigns judgement down? Just counting the minutes until this world is once again an all-Muslim planet, as it's written in your book?



Hola Bobster,

Have been away on a camp with guru Ariffin so have missed this thread, still better late than never.
If it maks you feel any better , I too as a " normal " Sunni Muslim am considered a kafir by the muslims you speak of,
God help me if they find out I am associated ith Sufism in any way - they are very quick to fill the fires of hell with people like you and me.

We are taught that only the one who created us knows our internal state, if we " believe " or not, and if we are sincere or not - it is forbidden for us to speculate on the condition of anyone else.

These fanatics hiding under their made up version of reformist Islam have given themselves the right to declare that only those who conform to their bogus version have the right to live - and have declared war on everyone else.

As Traditonal Muslims we repudiate their seperatist ideology and declare that Allah Almighty made different nations so that we may learn from each other and know each other.

Islam is about enlightenment not threats and promises.


Returning to the original quotation and it may not refer to a hadith , but to an Ayat of koran which states Fitnah is worse in the sight of Allah than killing.

This demonstrates how we need scholarly advise on the circumstances of the revelation in order to decode the layers of meaning, as this does not give a license to kill.

What it refers to by Fitnah is a trial , placing obstacles, undermining stability and creating confusion, fear , suspicion and misunderstanding - as it is under these sets of cicumstances that societys and individuals suffer , and in which killing is considered a viable and immediate solution to social or political friction.

God protect us

[Taker]

Peace to All,

Mas Gajah Silat, yes the quote was from Mak Intan, grandmaster of the Silat Harimau Berantai. I just took it from an article in the Seni Beladiri Magazine here in Malaysia, where her successor Jak Othman was telling stories of her.

By the way I'm not from the chained tiger style, I just love to have an insight look into other martial arts :D .

[Kiai Carita]

[FONT=Courier New]"Slander" is a false statement that is damaging to somebody's reputation, spoken aloud.

"Libel" is when you write it down.

In both cases, truth is a defense against the accusation. Saying something negative about somebody, e.g., "He's a liar, cheat, and womanzier." is only slander (or libel) if he is not these things.

If a man steals money from you, calling him a thief is not slander, it is the truth.
.....[FONT]

Warm salaams to all,

A very clear definition, Steve, thank you. If you take an Indonesian word such as 'kacung' and translate it as 'peanut', then someone tells you that the translation should be 'boy-slave' and 'peanut' would be 'kacang', the person who tells you is neither slandering nor libeling you.

Or for instance you give a rank 'Pelajarn' to your students, meaning to be using an Indonesian word, and an Indonesian tells you that there is no such word as 'pelajarn' in Bahasa, rather a student is 'pelajar' (or murid, or siswa, or cantrik) and the lesson is a 'pelajaran', the person who tells you is neither commiting slander nor libel.

Or if you have a silat certificate signed by the local village beaurocracy and someone points out that is highly unusual, the person who points it out is neither slandering nor libeling you. It is just a fact. Furthermore if the certificate uses words 'Wassalam Warohmatullahi Wabarakatuh' and someone points out that is unusual as usually the words would be 'Wassalamu'alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh' the person who points this out is also not commiting slander and neither is (s)he commiting libel.

Warm salaams to all,
Bram

[Steve Perry]

Warm salaams to all,

A very clear definition, Steve, thank you. If you take an Indonesian word such as 'kacung' and translate it as 'peanut', then someone tells you that the translation should be 'boy-slave' and 'peanut' would be 'kacang', the person who tells you is neither slandering nor libeling you.
Bram

Indeed, they are merely pointing out what they see as a simple mistake, and given as how I made that particular one, I was happy to have somebody (I believe it was you) show it to me. In this case, I asked somebody who spoke the language what it meant, but I mispronounced the word, so the fault was entirely mine.

The term was used as an insult, and as it turned out, was even more of an insult than I'd thought ...

Live and learn.

However:

There are words in English that I understand the meaning of, and can use in a written sentence, but that I have never heard spoken aloud, because reading and writing vocabularies are often different than spoken ones.

People can also say things aloud that they can't spell when they write them down. I've known people with Ph.D's in English who can't spell very well, and I have misspelled my share of words over the years, not counting typos, and I'm a professional writer. Nobody bats a thousand.

It is therefore not unlikely that somebody uneducated or unskilled as a writer who makes out a certificate might make a syntax or spelling error ...

I point this out as a possible use of Occam's Razor. I believe that on Elvis Presley's original tombstone, his middle name was misspelled, which gave rise to all kinds of speculation that maybe he wasn't actually buried there. ("Aaron" versus "Aron," I believe. Much easier to believe that the stonecutter just made a mistake than to believe in big conspiracies ...)

[Mushtaq Ali]

Oh my, we have struck a nerve here haven't we.

Warm salaams to all,

A very clear definition, Steve, thank you. If you take an Indonesian word such as 'kacung' and translate it as 'peanut', then someone tells you that the translation should be 'boy-slave' and 'peanut' would be 'kacang', the person who tells you is neither slandering nor libeling you.

But then the discussion was not about slander and libel, it was about Gheebah and Fitna.

The Prophet (saws) gave us this definition Gheebah (backbiting) as I pointed out before;

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Do you know what is backbiting? They (the Companions) said: Allah and His Messenger know best. Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Backbiting implies your talking about your brother in a manner which he does not like. It was said to him: What is your opinion about this that if I actually find (that failing) in my brother which I made a mention of? He said: If (that failing) is actually found (in him) what you assert, you in fact backbited him, and if that is not in him it is a slander.
(Muslim)

If you don't like the definition you should perhaps take it up with the Prophet (saws).

Everyone will of course have to make their own judgment, but to me your behavior in public on this forum and in private to me sure seems to fit this definition in regards to Bill Sanders. (and anyone else who should be so profoundly ignorant as to disagree with anything you say) (but as we say "if the shoe fits..........")

Or if you have a silat certificate signed by the local village beauocracy and someone points out that is highly unusual, the person who points it out is neither slandering nor libeling you. It is just a fact. Furthermore if the certificate uses words 'Wassalam Warohmatullahi Wabarakatuh' and someone points out that is unusual as usually the words would be 'Wassalamu'alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh' the person who points this out is also not commiting slander and neither is (s)he commiting libel.

One wonders how you, having never met any of the people involved in writing this certificate, have determined that they are "village Bureaucracy" (please note correct spelling)? Perhaps you should look them up and tell them that they don't know what they are doing.

But more importantly, if you want to criticize someone else's Arabic, you should at least have the decency to get it correct yourself. Here, let me write it out for you.
http://static.flickr.com/98/241688006_2e47097b48_o.jpg
I left off the diacritical marks because you, being an expert in the Arabic language and all, should know where they go and what they are.

You said that this says 'Wassalamu'alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh'

You will notice that what the Arabic actually says is As-Salaam (Alif-lam-sin-lam-alif-mem) not Wassalam. In other words you started the sentence with "and" rather than "The". Also, don't you think that "Wabarakatuh" would be better rendered into English as "Wa Barakata Hu", since that is actually how it is pronounced? (often with a great deal of stress on the "hu") (what is that other saying? Oh yes "people who live in glass houses......")

Ever since you started going after Sanders in this forum (while conveniently overlooking anyone else who might be doing the same things you are criticizing Sanders for) I have wondered why you have attacked him with such venom. So I made inquiries.

You know, everyone looses sparring matches dewd, it's no big deal. Do you really want to fill this forum with such bile just because you lost? Here is another bit of Arabic for you (rendered as best I can) Arifa nafsahu Faqad Arifa Rabbahu" (which is usually translated as "He who knows himself knows his Lord" but interestingly, can also be translated as "He who knows his Ego know what rules him"). You should perhaps take that to heart.

[Kiai Carita]

...
One wonders how you, having never met any of the people involved in writing this certificate, have determined that they are "village Bureaucracy" (please note correct spelling)? Perhaps you should look them up and tell them that they don't know what they are doing.

But more importantly, if you want to criticize someone else's Arabic, you should at least have the decency to get it correct yourself. Here, let me write it out for you.
http://static.flickr.com/98/241688006_2e47097b48_o.jpg
I left off the diacritical marks because you, being an expert in the Arabic language and all, should know where they go and what they are.

You said that this says 'Wassalamu'alaikum Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh'

You will notice that what the Arabic actually says is As-Salaam (Alif-lam-sin-lam-alif-mem) not Wassalam. In other words you started the sentence with "and" rather than "The". Also, don't you think that "Wabarakatuh" would be better rendered into English as "Wa Barakata Hu", since that is actually how it is pronounced? (often with a great deal of stress on the "hu") (what is that other saying? Oh yes "people who live in glass houses......")

Ever since you started going after Sanders in this forum (while conveniently overlooking anyone else who might be doing the same things you are criticizing Sanders for) I have wondered why you have attacked him with such venom. So I made inquiries.

You know, everyone looses sparring matches dewd, it's no big deal. Do you really want to fill this forum with such bile just because you lost? Here is another bit of Arabic for you (rendered as best I can) Arifa nafsahu Faqad Arifa Rabbahu" (which is usually translated as "He who knows himself knows his Lord" but interestingly, can also be translated as "He who knows his Ego know what rules him"). You should perhaps take that to heart.

Assalamualaikum all,

Mushtaq, thankyou for the corrections in spelling I really appreciate it. However I was not actually writing about Sanders but you seem to think that I was -talking about hitting a nerve huh? I stopped writing about your mate because Mas Tristan asked me to and I respect him as a silat elder. Just for the record, your mate's certificate from Tari Kolot does say: Wasalam Warohmatuwlahi Wabarakatuh....and seeing those words, Haji Mangipin, a real Cimande teacher in the Naqshbandi mosque in Seven Sisters here in London did laugh and ask 'Lho, [alaikum]-nya mana?' or in English 'Hold on - where is the [alaikum]?'


You, Mushtaq, are the one who claims to be an expert in Arabic, not me, my expertise is Indonesian arts and culture. Saying that I am an Arabic expert is certainly a fitnah from your side. It would be enlightening for all if you would explain what happened to the 'alaikum' in the wording of there!

You seem to be hinting that I am sore because of losing a sparring match? I have never-ever sparred with any of your people...so just maybe you are propagating fitnah here? Or your sources of information are indulging in fitnah?

Warm salaams,
Bram.

[Rebo Paing]

Quote Mushtaq Ali :One wonders how you, having never met any of the people involved in writing this certificate, have determined that they are "village Bureaucracy" (please note correct spelling)? Perhaps you should look them up and tell them that they don't know what they are doing.

Rahayu Mushtaq,
people make assumptions based on personal experience that is true. Just as you are passionate about Arabic in it's pure form and the correct spelling in the English language, so too are we passionate about our personal culture. My brother and I are born and bread of the village, and it is an assumption I would make as well.

I have already stated in the past that I think its great if a style develops in the west with links to the east etc and is given an appropriate history. Again I make the example of your passion for (I assume Islam Sufi? ) ... if someone was selling an idea that somehow corrupted your understanding or the original concept and culture, particularly if it is insulting to the sensibilities of the culture of origin, you would say something ... as you have demonstrated already.

Please note also, that Islam Jawa might be quite a bit different as it absorbs and intertwines with a lot of the old culture ... e.g. Surat Al-Fatikah, which is how I was taught to spell it .. in Jawanese is Surat Kalimosodo ... which is taught that it is the Jimat of Yudisthiro, the eldest brother of the Pandowo Limo. Now I'm sure that Nabi Muhammad (saw) was not even aware of the Pandowo brothers ... which comes from the Baratayudo/Mahabarata.

Salam

[Mushtaq Ali]

Assalamualaikum all,

Mushtaq, thankyou for the corrections in spelling I really appreciate it. However I was not actually writing about Sanders but you seem to think that I was -talking about hitting a nerve huh?

If we are going to have a conversation you are going to have to be a bit more honest. Do you think that anyone here who has paid attention to this conversation will believe what you just said? If you asked Pak Tristan (who is hopefully away on his honeymoon at the moment) would he have thought you were talking about something else? (BTW since you claim to respect your elders, I am quite a bit older than Tristan)


You, Mushtaq, are the one who claims to be an expert in Arabic,

Really? Where? Show me where I have claimed to be an expert in Arabic or anything else.


You seem to be hinting that I am sore because of losing a sparring match? I have never-ever sparred with any of your people...so just maybe you are propagating fitnah here? Or your sources of information are indulging in fitnah?

You have never met any of my people at all, or me for that matter, but if you had been paying attention you would know that I am not related to Sander's school at all.

The question would be "did you, your friends or students ever spar with any of Sanders' people?" Does the name Gavin ring a bell? Be careful how you answer, there may be video tape for all you know.

My advice to you is that if you have agreed to Tristan's request to drop the matter than you do so. There are many other things that can be talked about here that are of actual value. You are not representing your culture or your art in a way that is positive with all this petty bickering. Especially now.

This thread had the potential to show Islam in a more positive light than many people here hold it. Your inability to quit bashing Sanders has made that just a bit difficult.

[Rebo Paing]

Mushstaq ... you previously mentioned bile ... but you also appear to have some bile in your replies :confused: .

You seem to be accusing my brother of being a liar about something? To my point of view you began this attack ... if you want to accuse Bram, do it PM ... otherwise my family honour is being attacked here too.

That is fitnah (Jawanese usage) too no?

BTW An elder in Jawa does not necessarily have to be someone who is older in years.

Salam
Krisno Pryosusilo

[Kiai Carita]

If we are going to have a conversation you are going to have to be a bit more honest. Do you think that anyone here who has paid attention to this conversation will believe what you just said? If you asked Pak Tristan (who is hopefully away on his honeymoon at the moment) would he have thought you were talking about something else? (BTW since you claim to respect your elders, I am quite a bit older than Tristan)




Really? Where? Show me where I have claimed to be an expert in Arabic or anything else.




You have never met any of my people at all, or me for that matter, but if you had been paying attention you would know that I am not related to Sander's school at all.

The question would be "did you, your friends or students ever spar with any of Sanders' people?" Does the name Gavin ring a bell? Be careful how you answer, there may be video tape for all you know.

My advice to you is that if you have agreed to Tristan's request to drop the matter than you do so. There are many other things that can be talked about here that are of actual value. You are not representing your culture or your art in a way that is positive with all this petty bickering. Especially now.

This thread had the potential to show Islam in a more positive light than many people here hold it. Your inability to quit bashing Sanders has made that just a bit difficult.


Mushtaq,

You were the one to bring Sanders in to this thread. You accussed me of claiming expertise in Arabic while if you check Sanders' site YOU are the definitive expert! However you have not yet explained where the 'alaikum' went in the certificate you gave your expert Arabic opinion on. I have dropped the matter with Sanders ... my problem is now your accussations!

As for Gavin, yes I met him twice or three times last year. I still have his number in my phone. We did not ever spar! I did however ask him about his applications and he demonstrated one on me. Now if an application demo is called sparring then we are talking fish and snake stories here. So if you have been led to believe that I am sore because of losing in a spar then you are propagating fitnah about me. I am not sore, I liked the Gavin I met and welcome him or anyone to come and if sparring is what you want then we can of course spar!

Gavin himself posts here (or used to) as Cimandesilat... everyone can ask him openly here. Did we spar? No we did not. I ignored this accussation when it came from them (I notice Gavin himself never wrote this here - I suppose it was all from Liam) but now coming from you, an expert in religion and in martial arts (well you teach it don't you?) I feel I should answer, because you present yourself as a Muslim and as a Guru.

I respect my elders and Mas Tristan is one of them but you being older than Mas Tristan doesn't make you my elder. I respect you and still answer your posts though you avoids the points I make. The way you jumped into these discussions and began attacking me made me ask around about you too, Mushtaq. For someone who never trusts a fat holy man but claims to be a traceless warrior there is alot about you on the web - pretty darn traceless IMHO.

Mushtaq, I won't write here all that I have learned about you, for if I were you, I would be embarrassed and I do not want to embarass you in this forum. I have also read your advertised blog (traceless but advertised I like your irony) and find that in it you do indulge in the very backbiting you say I do! I reffer to your blog where you call your fellow American silat brother, Jeff Davidson, as a punk in a derogatory way. So how am I to believe you when you say you are older than Mas Tristan? Maybe in years but in conduct you seem to me to be a juvenile delinquent!

Who are you and what is your silat where did it come from and who is your teacher and why do you attack me for Sanders while ignoring the points that I make? In this thread I was just clarifying that I have not indulged in Fitnah - which you have accussed me of in your expert writting for S' website. It is not fitnah to state the truth.

As you are matey-matey with Sanders... please tell him honestly and without malice that there is no word Pelajarn in Bahasa Indonesia, and that Cimande is traditionally seen as being part of the Sundanese Islamic identity, and in that sense, making oaths to a dead Hindu, Indonesian National Hero; Untung Surapati....is blasphemy. This is the truth, not back-bitting, not slander, not libel.

Sincerely,
Bram.

[Rebo Paing]

Bram, in the family tradition I am your elder as well, not just Mas Tris ;) .

Take the argument PM please? I have PM-ed Mushtaq to do the same.

[Rebo Paing]

Bram, I'm trying to PM you but your quota is full ... please delete some messages?

[silatliam]

[QUOTE=Kiai Carita]Mushtaq,

if sparring is what you want then we can of course spar!

Gavin himself posts here (or used to) as Cimandesilat... everyone can ask him openly here. Did we spar? No we did not. I ignored this accussation when it came from them (I notice Gavin himself never wrote this here - I suppose it was all from Liam)


I will be in London, soon. I glad you accepted at long last a opportunity to spar. I will arrange a time with you soon so we can meet up. No more false excuses or reasons you cant meet up

Gavin no longer post here, as he was so annoyed with the way you behaving towards us. He came to you in good faith, and by attacking his teachers you attacked him. Gavin is training in my class every week, so I know what went on. So stop BS.

Liam

[Kiai Carita]

I will be in London, soon. I glad you accepted at long last a opportunity to spar. I will arrange a time with you soon so we can meet up. No more false excuses or reasons you cant meet up

Gavin no longer post here, as he was so annoyed with the way you behaving towards us. He came to you in good faith, and by attacking his teachers you attacked him. Gavin is training in my class every week, so I know what went on. So stop BS.

Liam

Liam,

I am sorry that just because Gavin was annoyed with me he stopped posting here. You say ' a long lost opportunity to spar' and I suppose you mean to admit that it has never happened?

You are full of BS Liam... I tell the truth. What is the BS you accuse me of? Is it true that you are afraid of MMA Players? :D

Salam silat,
Bram.

[Mushtaq Ali]

Bram,

I have spoken to your brother by PM. He is the elder and has stepped into that position here, and being as you seem to have become unbalanced I will finish this conversation with him. If nothing else will motivate you to appropriate behavior then at least consider the need to respect your family.

[silatliam]

Liam,

I am sorry that just because Gavin was annoyed with me he stopped posting here. You say ' a long lost opportunity to spar' and I suppose you mean to admit that it has never happened?

You are full of BS Liam... I tell the truth. What is the BS you accuse me of? Is it true that you are afraid of MMA Players? :D

Salam silat,
Bram.
Hi Kiai

To explain things to you is like watching a Dog chase it tail around and around and around, getting crazier all the time. It doesnt have the intelligence
nor the understanding to know better

1) "Long lost opportunity to spar and I suppose you mean to admit that it never happened" That my dear old friend is about me and you. I have wanted to meet up with you for a while now and you been ducking around this forum trolling your bitter hatred. Every time I asked to meet up you been full of excuses. Well now that you lay down the challenge to Mustaq to spar, its only fair for us to meet. I will call you and meet up with you. I will bring a camera and we can film it, after this we can put it up on you tube and we can see the level of skill you talk about.

2) The bull **** questions. You see Kiai you not very good at covering your tracks. Ive have seen copies of some of your private mails (silat world is a very small place) and I have to say I shocked by the level of hate and vemon you can write in private, Your hatred of Pendekar Sanders (who you chicken out of meeting) is really letting you down. You have use this forum to write lies apon lies I have pull you up on a number of these, and you dont apologies but still go on and on. Even when you been warned by the Moderator you still dont listen.

Kiai why do you spend every day visit and watching what Pendekar Sanders do. You really getting a little besottle with him, and to be really honest, questions will need to be asked about this unhealthy affection you have with him.

3) what **** are you now trying to stir with MMA guys. Am I afraid of them???
Let me explain something to you. I have an open door policy any person can come in any time to any of my classes. I disagree with some of what they do and some of them disagree with me. I teach a number of them in my classes. I ve have never backed down to any challenger, so be very very careful of any more false statements.

I believe at this moment in time that the only one causing so much discord on this forum is Kiai. He has over the past 12 months cause over 90% of all the arguments and is really just acting as a troll. The moderator wrote three weeks ago he was going to end all this and some of kiai post were took off, but he back again with the same hate fill post.

Kiai :cry: there no more hiding :eek: , no more internet warrior :eek: , your bluff is now call :bang: . Look forward to seeing you soon :love: .

Best Wishes

Liam

[tellner]

It's probably about time to bring a few more facts into play.

First, Kiai, you aren't seeing Mushtaq when he's angry or trying to be cutting. You'd know it. He's doing something that is perhaps even less pleasant. He's correcting you in areas where you do not believe he could possibly have expertise. And he's got his facts in line better than you. One of his most endearing features is that he's very open and up front about who he is and what he thinks. Part of that is his blog. You can tell who he is, where he lives and a lot about his past. It's right there, no secrets.

In fact, you are spreading all sorts of innuendoes and vague accusations about the guy. If we're going to talk about who got personal first or worst the answer is pretty clear. You aren't winning points by making veiled assertions about his character. You are making yourself a real reputation as a feces agitator. One has to wonder who has been hissing filth into your ears about him and to what end.

You seem to have a real attitude about Guru Sanders. Whatever he is or isn't Mushtaq certainly isn't one of "his". They certainly know each other, but Mushtaq has never been one of his students or part of his organization. They don't go out drinking together or stay up late at night plotting ways to screw you and yours over. If you have an issue with Mr. Sanders' pieces of paper take it up with the people who gave them to him. Mushtaq is not one of those people.

Mushtaq and Jeff Davidson don't like each other. This stuff happens. But I note that he is happy to link to at least one of Davidson's students and praise his work. "You play with him and I don't like him so I won't play with you" is a game most grow out of around the fourth grade.

Your protestations about Gavin seem to be, well, lies. 'nuff said. If the tape of the two of you crossing hands still exists I'm sure it will end up on YouTube sooner or later.

[Rebo Paing]

1/ The first issue that I have is that the group of people who identify with Sanders are continuing the attack on these forums - Mushtaq, my brother has not responded since, are you able to curtail your side? This ngeroyok tactic is not honourable.

2/ I am prepared to discuss this to our respective positions on PM only IF this discussion is NOT perpetuated on this forum ... by anybody until such time we reach a conclusion!

This means a CEASE-FIRE!

If Liam or anyone else from your camp continues with this action on the forum, I will not be disposed to continue to reach my understanding of the situation.

That is my position until I finalise my research.

Salam
Krisno

[Mushtaq Ali]

OK Krisno,

Up to this point I have tried to address this problem reasonably, and I have spoken to you politely and with as much even handedness as I can by PM (which I note you have not bothered to respond to).

So let me put this to you with the last remaining shreds of my sabur.

There is no sides, there is no "group" that identifies with Sanders.

I don't know Liam, have never spoken to him, have never exchanged email with him or a PM. We have not been introduced. I have no control over what he does and I don't want any.

You brother made that particular situation with no help from me and he and you can deal with it.

You are not seeing sides, you are seeing people who are fed up with your brother's trolling.

If you want to resolve this as far as I am concerned, then you know how to PM me, but don't come on here and deliver ultimatums. At this point there are a good number of people who have a beef with the way your brother acts here, more by the day it seems. He has managed that all on his own.

So if you want to talk with me then do so, and if you do so politely I will respond in kind. If we can act as adults in this situation and discuss this rationally then I believe we can resolve this to every one's satisfaction.

And I bet that if you keep your brother in line then people will find more interesting things to talk about.

But don't come on here using my name and demanding that I fix the mess your brother made. That dog don't hunt.

[silatliam]

1/ The first issue that I have is that the group of people who identify with Sanders are continuing the attack on these forums - Mushtaq, my brother has not responded since, are you able to curtail your side? This ngeroyok tactic is not honourable.

2/ I am prepared to discuss this to our respective positions on PM only IF this discussion is NOT perpetuated on this forum ... by anybody until such time we reach a conclusion!

This means a CEASE-FIRE!

If Liam or anyone else from your camp continues with this action on the forum, I will not be disposed to continue to reach my understanding of the situation.

That is my position until I finalise my research.

Salam
Krisno

Hi Krisno

With great respect can you show me any where on this forum, where we started a thread or started an attack on Kiai ? You will see on the rows concerning us and kiai have started from him !!

Yes we have reacted. Pendekar Sanders has never come on this forum to start an attack on Kiai. Kiai has used this forum time and time again to make crude and crass remarks. My advice at the start to Pendekar Sanders was to say nothing, but after a period of time I couldnt stand by watching and reading what Kiai wrote. Pendekar Sanders is my teacher who I respect and I wasnt going to sit back and let Kiai make up lies. Pendekar Sanders and myself have a number of times asked to meet up with Kiai to discuss these matters, I even offer to pay for his flights, and transport to Dublin so the two of them could meet and discuss this instead of this forum and so far Kiai has refused to do this. I was also very shocked when I saw the vile hate fill private mail that Kiai was sending around.

I be very honest with you, we dont want to be on this forum everyday dealing with negative posts, I rather be discussing Silat. If Kiai stop attacking Pendekar Sanders and the art form he practise with 48 hours all this would be dead in the water and it be all over. Pendekar does not force anyone to train with him I choose to train under him, I like the way he teaches, I love the art form, no teacher or human is perfect, but Ive have learnt to grow and develop. If anyone has a problem with Pendekar Sanders, his style, his website, his certificate anything at all, should deal with it privately either by telephone, letter, private email or by turning up to one of his seminars. It shouldnt be done in a cowardly, sneeking way under the cover of a public forum,talk to the man face to face. Trying to bring a person name and character down by using a forum this way Kiai has been doing is disgracefull.

So in conclussion Kiai is his only worst enemy, he trolls the forum as a way to bring scorn on Western teachers. He has indeed upset a great number of people. I have tried to hold a olive branch as long as I can .I do not want to be on here every day, readdressing Kiai remarks. But I will not stand back and have my friends, teachers and even myself have lies made up. So talk to your brother and maybe you can explain this to him.


Liam

[Rebo Paing]

Mushtaq, I had just returned from work ... I had to take care of my family... life interfered. I have PM-ed you as an ongoing discussion and I will PM you as well SilatLiam ... please be patient, my initial reply on the forum was a knee jerk reaction.

Please let us all desist and be patient ...

[Rebo Paing]

I have thought about the practicalities of this situation we find ourselves in, and have created a mailing list, the address is hana-caraka@googlegroups.com

However it is a private mailing list, and I understand is not open to viewing to casual observers in order to keep the discussion private and hopefully ... focused.

I have an interest to have harmony in the western world of silat, and would wish that we can for a while put ALL our egos on hold and have a civil discussion, airing grievances and giving each other a chance to fully express what is problematic from each individual perspective ... as I seek to clarification why this topic has become

My father used to say that it takes more than one side to make a quarrel. If we can try to come a place of respect for ALL parties by ironing out our differences ... maybe we might just get there and that will take true silat skills. This will be difficult and will require honest participation from all of us. To reach an understanding of the other is a great thing. We can't hope to achieve that while we lay blame on one another.

The first step will always be to keep talking. If we can't do this as insignificant individuals ... what hope has the world of human beings got?

I will make Mushtaq a mailing list manager as will I be if he is willing. He will allow membership as he sees fit as I will also.

I ask for these proviso,

1./ That neither of us will disallow a membership once an individual joins.

2/ Membership has to remain balanced with equal numbers in both sides of the discussion.

3/ If Mushtaq is agreed, he and I will keep the forum for a test period of 6 months to see if we can be fruitful. At the end of 6 months we pull the pin if it remains unresolved.

I respectfully hope that Mr. William Sanders might also participate, also Silat Liam.

Mushtaq, I have taken the liberty of making you a manager and you should already be able to post on the forum. To manage the forum though, I think you might require a GMail account. Please go to http://mail.google.com and create an account :) I truly apologise for any inconvenience.

Salam
Krisno

[Rebo Paing]

I have thought about the practicalities of this situation we find ourselves in, and have created a mailing list, the address is hana-caraka@googlegroups.com

However it is a private mailing list, and I understand is not open to viewing to casual observers in order to keep the discussion private and hopefully ... focused.

I have an interest to have harmony in the western world of silat, and would wish that we can for a while put ALL our egos on hold and have a civil discussion, airing grievances and giving each other a chance to fully express what is problematic from each individual perspective ... as I seek to clarification why this topic has become

My father used to say that it takes more than one side to make a quarrel. If we can try to come a place of respect for ALL parties by ironing out our differences ... maybe we might just get there and that will take true silat skills. This will be difficult and will require honest participation from all of us. To reach an understanding of the other is a great thing. We can't hope to achieve that while we lay blame on one another.

The first step will always be to keep talking. If we can't do this as insignificant individuals ... what hope has the world of human beings got?

I will make Mushtaq a mailing list manager as will I be if he is willing. He will allow membership as he sees fit as I will also.

I ask for these proviso,

1./ That neither of us will disallow a membership once an individual joins.

2/ Membership has to remain balanced with equal numbers in both sides of the discussion.

3/ If Mushtaq is agreed, he and I will keep the forum for a test period of 6 months to see if we can be fruitful. At the end of 6 months we pull the pin if it remains unresolved.

I respectfully hope that Mr. William Sanders might also participate, also Silat Liam ... I will need your email addresses to add to the list or you can contact Mushtaq Ali.

Mushtaq, I have taken the liberty of making you a manager and you should already be able to post on the forum. To manage the forum though, I think you might require a GMail account. Please go to http://mail.google.com and create an account :) I truly apologise for any inconvenience.

Salam
Krisno

P.S. I hope that all might find this a reasonable solution to the immediate problem of communicating via PM as has been pointed out to me by Mushtaq Ali.

Please be advised that those who apply to be mailing list members will be expected to communicate and have a cogent reason to be on the list and a history within this conflict ... this is not a spectator sport. I would hope that contributions look toward a resolution that is equitable to all parties.

Can there please be agreement on this?

[Jawara]

Aside from this being one of the dumbest threads I have seen on a martial arts forum, I'll make the following additional observations in the spirit of whathaveweealllearnedfromthis:

- I am glad I'm not connected by lineage to anyone on this thread :rolleyes:

- I have a reasonable command of Bahasa, and I have read Kiai/Bram's posts on Indonesian forums and found them to be quite well informed and reasonable. In fact he does a great service to the uninformed by speaking authoritatively for his culture :)

- I really believe he posts on this forum in a particular manner to elicit such humorous responses from certain people for sport. :p

- Silatliam and Mushtaq Ali: if your boy is going to publish a public website, and people have an issue or two with the content, then it is perfectly reasonable that he gets called on it in a public forum. See the logic? :bang:

- I'm gonna bone up on my Bahasa and stick to the Indonesian forums! :cool:

Peace Out!

[Orang Bayangan]

Aside from this being one of the dumbest threads I have seen on a martial arts forum!


You must not get around much, I have seen much dumber threads than this one. This was actually informative for at least some of us who don't know much about Muslims until people started frothing at the mouth. :eek:

[Mushtaq Ali]

Aside from this being one of the dumbest threads I have seen on a martial arts forum, I'll make the following additional observations in the spirit of whathaveweealllearnedfromthis:

Of course given the tone of your previous posts to this forum no one would suspect that you were the least bit partisan in this matter.

What happened? Did things get too quiet and you just thought you would see if you might be able to throw some gasoline on the fire?

- I am glad I'm not connected by lineage to anyone on this thread

A sentiment that I am sure is shared by everyone here.


- Silatliam and Mushtaq Ali: if your boy is going to publish a public website, and people have an issue or two with the content, then it is perfectly reasonable that he gets called on it in a public forum. See the logic? :bang:

But then we don't publish a public website, do we? We don't even know each other.

And then I have not complained about this being hashed out on this forum have I?

The problem with using one's own identity rather than hiding behind an anonymous login is that you do open yourself to trolls and other Internet low life. It is a choice we all have to make. I decided that I prefer to speak in my own voice even if it causes me more trouble than hiding behind a login and sniping at people.

I am used to being sniped at after all this time and I can give as good as I get.(And I know where a whole lot of the "bodies are buried") The thing is, even with all the trolling I have to put up with, sometimes something useful can be accomplished. If I can manage to get these two groups to leave each other alone and co-exist peacefully then it is worth it in my book.

- I'm gonna bone up on my Bahasa and stick to the Indonesian forums!

Promise?

[Steve Perry]

I try and make it a point not to say something about somebody I wouldn't be willing to say to their face. This generally keeps me out of trouble, because I don't have to keep track of -- in the words of Hollywood screenwriters -- which lie I told.

Pendekar Sanders and I have some differing views about the history of our arts, and we have had long and heated discussions, the results of which were we agreed to disagree. If I say something here about him, I have likely already said it to him, so I don't feel as if I am backstabbing him.

Personally, I like to think I'm right and he's wrong, but since I have been wrong a time or two before in my life, I have to allow that possibility ...

Regarding certification and experience, what I know for sure is that Bobbe Edmunds, a man whose opinion I feel comfortable accepting from time to time, has said he was in Cimande village and personally saw evidence that indicated Sanders was there. So the argument isn't whether he was or wasn't, or that he received training there or not, I accept he has -- Bobbe has no reason to lie about it.

How something is written on a certificate doesn't really have much to do with what the bearer learned along the way. Nit-picking the phrasing or words does not go to the real question being raised, which is, did Sanders go there and get the thing, for what one assumes is good reason on the part of his teacher?

My teacher has no certificates from his teacher, least I've never seen one; nor do I feel the need to have a paper from him telling me what I know. Either I know it or I don't. But many people want the certification in written form, and that is their business.

Looks to me as if Sanders did to to Cimande Village and train, and if I disagree with him when it comes to the history of my art, that has nothing to do with his ability to move.

This is an old argument, going back many years. I would wish it into the cornfield, for my part. Every time it starts to die down, somebody throws another grenade and it flares back up again. And both sides have responsibility for that -- it takes two to tango ...

[Orang Jawa]

Salam all,
For Heave sake, I left a forum for a week and the the old discussion are back again.
Once again, I humbly ask everyone is involved to this discussion to take a deep breath, step back and hold your opinion.

Why people keep talking about certificate or lineage? It is matter? Do you think it will makes you bigger than life? Are we forget that Arts do not make a men. Men make the arts?
Nothing extraordinary about silat, silat linage, or silat system. Don't make a big deal of it. I have to say, if you are agree with my opinon that certificate and silat lineage is not a big deal than you have to agree with me to put that certificate away.
Why wasting time to talk about it. The true call of silat player is not to do extraordinary things, but to do the ordinary things in an extraordinary way.
And to others. please refrain to bring this lineage and the certificate to the forum.
Lets talk about silat movements or techniques.

For what ever is worth. None of my teachers have a certificate from their teacher.
I don't have Silat teaching certificate either. So, if for not having a certificate I would not be legit to teach silat or practice silat, so be it. Who really gave a f......Pardon my french...

With all do respect Mas Bram, Mas William Sander. I'm asking both of you and your coleagues to refrain from shouting to each other credibiltiy, etc. on this forum. It is your choices to do it on PM. Thank you very kindly.
Tristan

[Bobster]

Hello everybody. I'm here to announce that the first annual Barenaked Silat Brotherhood Barbecue and Barndance Bonding was a smashing success, with people from all over the world coming over to America the Fabulous to share thier arts and insights in a unique and unprecedented event. An astounding revalation occurred when the artists realized they had a lot more in common than not when they agreed to leave such silly things as origin and political heresay at the door, especially upon comparison of thier particular styles on the mat.

...And then I woke up.

So we can't leave Sanders alone, eh? Lineage rubbing you the wrong way? Or is it that he says he doeas "Cimande"? Which, I will baldly point out, SO DO 60 OTHER OF YOU FREAKS!!!!! And I'll bet in a side-by-side comparison you would all look different. There are 10 hamburger joints within a mile of my house, they all claim to make fries and burgers. If you don't like one particular style, DON'T EAT THERE! But don't try to say that YOU are more valid than somebody else because of lineage, documentation, motion, what-have-you. There are PLENTY of other targets, you could start by looking in a mirror. Isn't there a saying, let he with no $hit on his shoes take the first step across the white carpet, or something?

This thing is done to death. The postings here will prove nothing, except that arrogance is much more attractive and popular than friendship and brotherhood.

- I have a reasonable command of Bahasa, and I have read Kiai/Bram's posts on Indonesian forums and found them to be quite well informed and reasonable. In fact he does a great service to the uninformed by speaking authoritatively for his culture

- I really believe he posts on this forum in a particular manner to elicit such humorous responses from certain people for sport.

Jawara: "Warrior, fighter" (Bahasa Indonesia) Also a former Mande Muda rank, before Pa switched to the Jagabaya structure. Your two remarks above are conflicting, Jawara. Kiai isn't simoutaneously doing a "great service" to his people while "Posting in a particular manner for sport".

What he's doing is instigating political infighting while standing on the other side of the river, untouched. There is a much more blunt name for this kind of person, and he would not be tolerated in any other social setting. Kiai enjoys the anonymity of the internet, whilst hiding behind words and accusations he knows he will never have to face down. It's easy to snipe at people for sport. I could have a LOT of "sport" with the Indonesians as well. Dan saya berbicara bahasa Indonesia sekali bagus. Dan bahasa Sunda.

Personally, one has to ask: What is the student, but a reflection of the teacher? If any of MY students were guilty of this kind of slander (note that none of them are - I have made it painfully obvious not to post this kind of dreck in my name) I would put a stop to it immediately, and insure the student was aware of my displeasure. So, TO THE TEACHER OF KIAI CARITA: Control your lapdog, his fecal leavings are a direct reflection upon you & your teaching. Unless you condone this abhorrent behaviour. If YOU have issue with William Sanders, pick up the phone or get on a plane. Don't send a lackey to do it for you, that's not the style of a man.

Sanders isn't my teacher, by the way. I'm jumping in this uninvited, but it pains me (& much of the Silat community) to see this crap for the billionth time. Sanders came out with some of the earliest Silat vids, and he is at least partially responsible for it's spread in America. I'm not saying it was the greatest thing since sliced bread, but he HAS made the effort to go to the country and get the info firsthand. If you are going to shine a spotlight on his faults, then a little bit of that same light should show his credits as well.

This was actually informative for at least some of us who don't know much about Muslims until people started frothing at the mouth.

Orang Bayangan, PLEASE tell me I'm reading this the wrong way. You cannot be holding the standards of an entire religion to the postings of a couple of followers. This isn't the dark ages.

Pak Tristan speaks with the calm of a happily married man, and maybe I should have left this at his post, it's certianly better than mine. But this S**T has gone far enough.

[Steve Perry]

Pak Tristan speaks with the calm of a happily married man, and maybe I should have left this at his post, it's certianly better than mine. But this S**T has gone far enough.

Hey, don't sugar-coat it that way, Bobbe -- tell us how you really feel ...

[Bobster]

Do you think I was too evasive?

[Bobster]

Krisno, I have just PM'd you. I will keep my word. Let us try.

[Orang Bayangan]

Orang Bayangan, PLEASE tell me I'm reading this the wrong way. You cannot be holding the standards of an entire religion to the postings of a couple of followers. This isn't the dark ages.

I think you have taken what I said the wrong way.

I don't know much about Muslims and I was enjoying reading what Pak Mushtaq and others had to say on the subject.

With all the bad press on the Muslim religion these days it was kind of nice to get a look at something different and a bit more humane.

Then that guy came on and started yelling and name calling.

It just struck me as a little sad that someone offers some nice scriptural material on how their religion thinks that backbiting and strife are bad and gets called names for it.

[mojo shorin-ryu]

If only :bang:

By the way Fitnah=Slander. Just thought I'd clarify for everyone ;)

Here's one "lain ladang, lain belalang"

"Different field, different grasshopper"
thanks no hablo francais y no puedo escribir muy bien...

[Gajah Silat]

thanks no hablo francais y no puedo escribir muy bien...

"You do not speak French and write very well" :confused: :confused:

Words of wisdom indeed :confused:

I am confused :confused:

[gurobuzz]

Hello everybody. I'm here to announce that the first annual Barenaked Silat Brotherhood Barbecue and Barndance Bonding was a smashing success, with people from all over the world coming over to America the Fabulous to share thier arts and insights in a unique and unprecedented event.

I seem to miss out on all the fun stuff!

[tellner]

I'm here to announce that the first annual Barenaked Silat Brotherhood Barbecue and Barndance Bonding was a smashing success

Buzz, I just went to a really scary visual place. It's going to take a lot of cheap booze to erase the image of close to forty naked guys hopping around waving their sticks and sweating on each other. And Mariah is way too young for me, so that's no good.

Just for that I'll leave you with this one...

Keith Richards and Ted Washington dancing naked in a leather bar

[gurobuzz]

You think I came up with that scenerio?? no no - our good friend Bobbe did- I was just saying I was not invited!!!!