Black belt testing {Split}

[baubin2]

**Mod note - Split from http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31375 **

Sigh.... testing 9 times in order to get your black belt really is absurd. 2 or 3 is one thing, but 9?

[Wolf]

It's not like you test 9 times with the association. When I instruct it's basically going to be like this. Once a month or 2 I'll just do a rundown of what the student is suppose to be able to do. If they can do it well without much hesitation, they get another black stripe. If not, then they gotta keep working. I don't think it's meant to be a bunch of formal testing situations.

It's not like the association makes money off of more tests either. You only pay once for your blackbelt test.

[baubin2]

Well, true enough. But nine is still excessive in my book. Just a personal opinion

[davefly76]

Well, true enough. But nine is still excessive in my book. Just a personal opinion

what i don't think you realise is that when you reach brown belt you are actually only halfway through the under black belt syllabus.

therefore you have another two years (roughly) to learn the rest and are tested every 3 months.

:)

[ember]

1) They say getting to blackbelt is about a journey, not a destination. As was stated before, the second stripe is only about halfway through the curriculum. So it may take 4-5 tests or more (if you test every time, quarterly) before you've learned all the techniques you're supposed to know.

2) I've learned something new *every* time I've gone to black belt testing at Kingwood. Some about myself, some about my art. Different suggestions on ways I could enhance my personal practice, in addition to what I do at the school.

3) It's an opportunity to train under an advanced instructor (so far my black belt tests have been called by at least SBN-rank) who has a slightly different take on the art than you might get at the home dojang.
-- Note that this also means you get to know a little more about the people involved in the association. Names, faces, attitudes, expectations.

Well, true enough. But nine is still excessive in my book. Just a personal opinion

[KSWCrash]

what i don't think you realise is that when you reach brown belt you are actually only halfway through the under black belt syllabus.

therefore you have another two years (roughly) to learn the rest and are tested every 3 months.




Also keep in mind that during that two years, you aren't only being tested as a student, you're being tested as a teacher as well. :cool:

[Choiyoungwoo]

the belt system is antiquated at best and adding stripes is just another way of stringing people along. It's the easiest way to add time without having to redo the whole belt ladder in wksa. These days , Nobody uses tape as a rank in the MA industry. It looks cheap, it feels cheap, because it is cheap and it allows for an ambigous standard that can be explained away when someone doesn't actually deserve a belt so they get something instead of failing. Because no one wants to tell a student that they're not good enough.
If the WKSA would catch up to the rest of the world they would emulate other successful business systems and DUMP THE STRIPES AS RANK. tape is designed to be used as a mark for checking progress BETWEEN belts not as a rank. I'm quite sure it has a limited past in KSW.
and 9 is excessive I agree

[davefly76]

and 9 is excessive I agree

i'd rather be tested, and have a stripe to prove it, as many times as i had to to reach black belt.

it doesn't take an awful lot to reach brown belt in kuk sool (i'm not belittleing anyones achievements here) but to get to black belt is a huge step.

i'd rather make sure that i was going to be a good black belt and be tested many times before being promoted rather than get to brown, be tested once and then be declared black belt.

:)

[Unknown Entity]

I'll second that! I would test for a 100 years to earn my belt. The problem in todays society is that people want to pay their fees and be given a belt for doing the minimum required to pass. When I test I want pushed to the point of passing out, I want to be pushed to my limit then forced to do more so I know I gave everything I had.

A belt means nothing, other than being good for holding up your pants. Its the training and blood, sweat and tears that you've been through that mean the most. A belt is a bit like a postcard, it shows where you have been on your journey!

Hope this makes sense!

[Silentmonk]

A belt means nothing, other than being good for holding up your pants. Its the training and blood, sweat and tears that you've been through that mean the most. A belt is a bit like a postcard, it shows where you have been on your journey!

Hope this makes sense!

Makes sense to me....though i would add a postcard is for other people so they can see where you've been, they will never understand the true beauty of the location till they visit it themselves and their memories will always be different to yours. The postcard isn't always necessary to have been to the location it is sometimes necessary for people to begin to understand what you have to tell them about that location though. Oh my god this is getting deep. lol :D

[Choiyoungwoo]

i'd rather be tested, and have a stripe to prove it, as many times as i had to to reach black belt.

it doesn't take an awful lot to reach brown belt in kuk sool (i'm not belittleing anyones achievements here) but to get to black belt is a huge step.

i'd rather make sure that i was going to be a good black belt and be tested many times before being promoted rather than get to brown, be tested once and then be declared black belt.

:)

Multiple tests are fine ....and probably better than a single test as I have black belts in systems that use both methods, one being KSW. But again you miss the point Im not suggesting ditching the multi test format .....i think stripes suck and should be replace w belts think about it .... the most important tests of your journey all you get is a lousy stripe on average people test about 7 times about $50 per test.... you would think that would cover a little more than a piece of electrical tape. the belts/stripes aren't really that important but, if your going to use them then use them properly

[Silentmonk]

But again you miss the point Im not suggesting ditching the multi test format .....i think stripes suck and should be replace w belts think about it .... the most important tests of your journey all you get is a lousy stripe on average people test about 7 times about $50 per test.... you would think that would cover a little more than a piece of electrical tape. the belts/stripes aren't really that important but, if your going to use them then use them properly

Again i ask why do you need a new postcard. You paid for the journey not the souvenir. :)

[coc716]

Multiple tests are fine ....and probably better than a single test as I have black belts in systems that use both methods, one being KSW. But again you miss the point Im not suggesting ditching the multi test format .....i think stripes suck and should be replace w belts think about it .... the most important tests of your journey all you get is a lousy stripe on average people test about 7 times about $50 per test.... you would think that would cover a little more than a piece of electrical tape. the belts/stripes aren't really that important but, if your going to use them then use them properly

I guess I still don't understand your stance/point on the belt vs. stripes. This isn't to be confrontational, this is trying to honestly understand your point.

Are you saying to use belts instead of stripes? If so, what's the difference? If we have white, yellow, blue, red, brown, brown-black, bunch o' stripes, black... and then change it to: white, yellow, blue, red, green, puce, mauve, camo, chartruse, pink, orange, paisley, brown, black.... well, what's really the difference? It's the same number of levels, it's the same amount of work, it's just perhaps a different way of representing it and one way gives you more pieces of cloth to store away after you're done. I personally don't see the difference... if it's 20 levels you have to go through, if that's represented by belts, stripes, notches on a stick, checkmarks on a piece of paper, a combination of those things... what does it matter?

And if as you say belts/stripes really aren't important, then what does it really matter which way things are done?

If you say "use them properly" then exactly what is the proper way to use a belt? To me, if my pants aren't falling down, then I'm using a belt properly. Or I guess, Poh Bahk Sool. :D

[davefly76]

When I test I want pushed to the point of passing out, I want to be pushed to my limit then forced to do more so I know I gave everything I had.


i agree. i want to be pushed to the absolute limit so that if i pass i know that i have earned it.

it's probably why going up to collect my first dahn certificate from kuk sa nim is the proudest moment of my life. i have never worked harder to achieve something than getting to black belt.

:)

[Unknown Entity]

For me the post card is for my own viewing. I maybe should have re-phrased it as a picture taken along your journey. The pictures meaning nothing, its the memories and feelings that it brings back that count. You could ask 1000 people to look at a picture and the only one that will appreciate the true meaning is the person that took the photo. Not to say that the rest won't understand, just that those who have earned a belt etc have there own personal meaning.

To know where you are going you first have to know where you are from in order to plot your course! The belts are merely a reference for the individual.

They can also represent your passport. Imagine each country as a different level of dan. You can't travel from 1st to 3rd without having passed through 2nd degree.

I think Choiyoungwoo is just getting at the image that bits of tape round your belt gives off. My own opinion is that the tape looks cheap but how my image is in the dojang is of no importance to me so long as my uniform is clean and ironed properly. Nothing worse than a student that has no respect for his dobok.

[Silentmonk]

For me the post card is for my own viewing. I maybe should have re-phrased it as a picture taken along your journey. The pictures meaning nothing, its the memories and feelings that it brings back that count. You could ask 1000 people to look at a picture and the only one that will appreciate the true meaning is the person that took the photo. Not to say that the rest won't understand, just that those who have earned a belt etc have there own personal meaning.

No i understood what you meant, i was just stealing your analogy for belts because i thought it made sense. Funny you say about the picture thing because if people were going toask what i or you meant i was going to post a picture on here and ask what people saw. Then explain what I saw when i looked at the same picture. Sometimes you scare me with your thought patterns lol. :D

[Unknown Entity]

Glad I freak you out! But since our minds think along similar lines does that mean you sometimes scare yourself? LOL :D

[Silentmonk]

Glad I freak you out! But since our minds think along similar lines does that mean you sometimes scare yourself? LOL :D

everytime i look in the mirror my friend. Everytime!!!!!! :D

[Choiyoungwoo]

I guess I still don't understand your stance/point on the belt vs. stripes. This isn't to be confrontational, this is trying to honestly understand your point.

Are you saying to use belts instead of stripes? If so, what's the difference? If we have white, yellow, blue, red, brown, brown-black, bunch o' stripes, black... and then change it to: white, yellow, blue, red, green, puce, mauve, camo, chartruse, pink, orange, paisley, brown, black.... well, what's really the difference? It's the same number of levels, it's the same amount of work, it's just perhaps a different way of representing it and one way gives you more pieces of cloth to store away after you're done. I personally don't see the difference... if it's 20 levels you have to go through, if that's represented by belts, stripes, notches on a stick, checkmarks on a piece of paper, a combination of those things... what does it matter?



And if as you say belts/stripes really aren't important, then what does it really matter which way things are done?

If you say "use them properly" then exactly what is the proper way to use a belt? To me, if my pants aren't falling down, then I'm using a belt properly. Or I guess, Poh Bahk Sool. :D

take off your ksw belt and your pants won't fall if they do something is wrong and btw po bak sool has nothing to do with a belt it's just another example of how most people won't go throught the trouble of getting a rope which makes the skill work MUCH better try it!

anyway

Belts and stripes or whatever you use in any system, are extrinsic methods that measure recall, skill, or whatever you dojo standard for rank. From the perspective of a professional organisation you would think that WKSA would have evolved by now in this area. It really doesn't matter but if your going to use it then use something that looks really nice. again tape looks, feels, and is cheap. I believe that it should look and feel and be very professional.

in reference to "use them properly" outside KSW you don't see many schools using tape as rank it is used as a teachers tool, as are belts in a way, as a visual aide in referencing where students are in the process of learning between tests. On the mat it is very useful in partnerning students, and as a daily or weekly motivation for achieveing new skills, or other performance based critiera. Somehow it was adopted in WKSA as an acceptable substitute for a belt to double the # of ranks, which was needed. There is actually a GREAT alternative that would fit WKSA very well, but the suggestion gets the classic answer "that's the way we've always done it" type of response. Everyone, from the top down, would benefit by improving the system in this area.

To you & I tape and belts are no matter but many students srtive for each step and it would be nice if each step was a little more than a piece of tape.

[Choiyoungwoo]

effective systems for multiple atttackers DO exsist but you won't find much in MA. look to law enforcement. and stay away from martial art cops. look exclusively to law enforcement pros

[Silentmonk]

effective systems for multiple atttackers DO exsist but you won't find much in MA. look to law enforcement. and stay away from martial art cops. look exclusively to law enforcement pros

nuclear holocausts work but are they effective solutions??????????? :D

[Silentmonk]

effective systems for multiple atttackers DO exsist but you won't find much in MA. look to law enforcement. and stay away from martial art cops. look exclusively to law enforcement pros

Oh and where is it you live because i must move there if there is no crime. :)

[coc716]

...if your going to use it then use something that looks really nice. again tape looks, feels, and is cheap. I believe that it should look and feel and be very professional.

So really, your point about the stripes/tape is that it looks cheap. So it's not so much about number of grades or ranks or testing, it's really about how it's (re)presented... and it should be done with something a little more than a piece of colored electrical tape. Ok, I can grant you that.

For me, it doesn't really matter. But I understand your point better. Thank you for clarifying.

[Choiyoungwoo]

Also keep in mind that during that two years, you aren't only being tested as a student, you're being tested as a teacher as well. :cool:


not true, bb testing in wksa does not qualify you to teach and is expressly not allowed as the sole avenue for becomining an instructor

[Choiyoungwoo]

So really, your point about the stripes/tape is that it looks cheap. So it's not so much about number of grades or ranks or testing, it's really about how it's (re)presented... and it should be done with something a little more than a piece of colored electrical tape. Ok, I can grant you that.

For me, it doesn't really matter. But I understand your point better. Thank you for clarifying.


Thank you for your tone in asking and responding it makes this more palatible.

[KSW_KJN]

Wow this thread has received a lot of posts! I'd like to chime in here a bit myself as I understand and have agreements with both sides of the fence here. I've never been fond of the "electrical tape" version. If someone's paying you ~$50 per test, the least you can do is to get them a cloth based stripe (sold at your participating MA stores!). It used to be that the stripes were only at the brown-black level. I have seen schools introducing them at other levels now as well. I find this a bit disturbing as my take is that if they aren't ready to test fully for the next level, don't test them. This is often due to pressure by parents as to why little Johnny hasn't promoted with the other students. It is more as a marketing thing, then as an actual promotion. It generates money for the schools and appeases the parents. I also agree that 9 stripes on your brown-black is a tad excessive. Sadly, I have seen more. A couple of years ago, I attended a tournament in San Francisco. While there, I observed several students who had so many stripes on their brown-black that within a few more testings, they would have acheived a black belt. Of course, this was not the cloth version, but a brown belt that was so wrapped up in electrical tape that you would not be able to see the brown any longer. This excessiveness is disturbing, disgusting, and demeaning to the art. It is a clear example of an instructor catering to either their financial greed or someone else's need to be validated. I have chastised instructors about this in the past and will most likely continue to do so in the future. Some people need to be able to tell their students that they aren't ready to test at the next testing. However, remembering that schools are businesses, I can partially understand this. Everyone needs to eat. At least they are holding the BB as sacred (for the most part).

With that said, a KSW students spends on average more than half of their time as a pre-BB student as a brown-black belt. You are reviewing all of your techniques and adding an equal amount during your brown-black instruction (FYI, I'm not a big fan of this moving of brown-black techniques to BB). Students need a sense of progress. With that, there are two ways of doing that. One is more belts. The other is the stripes we currently use. The likelihood of KSW introducing more belts is minimal. My suggestion, make the stripe something special if you're going to do it. Spend a couple of $$ on it instead of the $0.50 it cost you for the role of electrical tape.

Anyhow, hope I didn't stir up too much of a hornets nest. Just my $.02.

[Wolf]

I can understand arguments for both sides. When I saw the new curriculum added stripes at the colored belt level at first I was kind of taken aback. I didn't particularly care for it as I trained with out them as an underbelt (up till brown/black of course). Now I look at it and it doesn't bother me. As far as I'm concerned as long as the instruction is good and the students and performing well I'll adapt to the system. The only kind of striping I don't ever want to see is the multi-colored rainbow striping in the underbelts. It's one thing to recognize a student for completing on milestone in their training, but certainly another to give them a stripe every time they learn a single new thing. That just waters down the promotional process.

[coc716]

Thank you for your tone in asking and responding it makes this more palatible.

You're welcome. My intent is not to be mean, just honestly curious. It's sometimes tough in a medium like a written web forum, so I'm glad that my well-meaning intent came through. :)

[Choiyoungwoo]

I can understand arguments for both sides. When I saw the new curriculum added stripes at the colored belt level at first I was kind of taken aback. I didn't particularly care for it as I trained with out them as an underbelt (up till brown/black of course). Now I look at it and it doesn't bother me. As far as I'm concerned as long as the instruction is good and the students and performing well I'll adapt to the system. The only kind of striping I don't ever want to see is the multi-colored rainbow striping in the underbelts. It's one thing to recognize a student for completing on milestone in their training, but certainly another to give them a stripe every time they learn a single new thing. That just waters down the promotional process.

The stripes given (multicolored or not) @ the gup levels that I am suggesting are not rank, they are a scheduled, informal, progress check that are INDESPENSABLE teaching tools. there is no watering down involved as the requirements for rank are not changed,,,,if anything they are a Quality check to ensure students are progressing properly thus virtually eliminating embarrassing test performance. It helps not only prevent failure but it also helps ensure success through positive peer pressure to perform well in order to get the tip(in our school they are tips---not stripes). If you have ever had to teach a room of 50 kids at once it really helps to have a system that tells you where each of them are in training. This also holds the teachers accountable for the progress of the student. I urge you to keep an open mind about this. It works very well for many of the largest schools in the world, and it ADDS quality. If ksw plans on growing then it needs SYSTEMS in place that work en mass. Not methods chained to a small school approach ( no offense intended to small schools (all big schools started small))

[Wolf]

Yeah, that's basically why I don't have a problem with the stripes/tips at underbelt level anymore. I trained in a fairly small university club where it wasn't necessary. I have come to the realization that in large schools it really is a big help to instructors. I also agree that the stripes/tips shouldn't be viewed as a promotion in and of themselves and just as representation of a check point.

[Choiyoungwoo]

Oh and where is it you live because i must move there if there is no crime. :)


I never mentioned anything about crime ??

I only refer to the fact that LE pros, with or wo a ma background, that don't teach from a MA point of view seem to have a better handle on multi opponent skills.

thats all

[Choiyoungwoo]

Wow this thread has received a lot of posts! I'd like to chime in here a bit myself as I understand and have agreements with both sides of the fence here. I've never been fond of the "electrical tape" version. If someone's paying you ~$50 per test, the least you can do is to get them a cloth based stripe (sold at your participating MA stores!). It used to be that the stripes were only at the brown-black level. I have seen schools introducing them at other levels now as well. I find this a bit disturbing as my take is that if they aren't ready to test fully for the next level, don't test them. This is often due to pressure by parents as to why little Johnny hasn't promoted with the other students. It is more as a marketing thing, then as an actual promotion. It generates money for the schools and appeases the parents. I also agree that 9 stripes on your brown-black is a tad excessive. Sadly, I have seen more. A couple of years ago, I attended a tournament in San Francisco. While there, I observed several students who had so many stripes on their brown-black that within a few more testings, they would have acheived a black belt. Of course, this was not the cloth version, but a brown belt that was so wrapped up in electrical tape that you would not be able to see the brown any longer. This excessiveness is disturbing, disgusting, and demeaning to the art. It is a clear example of an instructor catering to either their financial greed or someone else's need to be validated. I have chastised instructors about this in the past and will most likely continue to do so in the future. Some people need to be able to tell their students that they aren't ready to test at the next testing. However, remembering that schools are businesses, I can partially understand this. Everyone needs to eat. At least they are holding the BB as sacred (for the most part).

With that said, a KSW students spends on average more than half of their time as a pre-BB student as a brown-black belt. You are reviewing all of your techniques and adding an equal amount during your brown-black instruction (FYI, I'm not a big fan of this moving of brown-black techniques to BB). Students need a sense of progress. With that, there are two ways of doing that. One is more belts. The other is the stripes we currently use. The likelihood of KSW introducing more belts is minimal. My suggestion, make the stripe something special if you're going to do it. Spend a couple of $$ on it instead of the $0.50 it cost you for the role of electrical tape.

Anyhow, hope I didn't stir up too much of a hornets nest. Just my $.02.

I agree, but keep in mind that the test fee goes to WKSA ONLY NONE of it goes to the school owner unless he asses an addition to the fee for each tip. Maybe the apparent greed you speak of by testing for more stripes wouldn't exsist is the school owner could get a fair portion of the BB test fee for testing his own student , hmmmmm seems to me that the greed exsists on many levels.

[AirNick]

but keep in mind that the test fee goes to WKSA ONLY NONE of it goes to the school owner
That's not true at all

[Wolf]

I thought the blackbelt testing fees did go to the organization. I know any testing fees other than the bb fees are not for the organization though.

[AirNick]

Yes that's right. I thought choiyoungwoo was talking about stripe tests though?

[Choiyoungwoo]

. I also agree that 9 stripes on your brown-black is a tad excessive. Sadly, I have seen more. A couple of years ago, I attended a tournament in San Francisco. While there, I observed several students who had so many stripes on their brown-black that within a few more testings, they would have acheived a black belt. Of course, this was not the cloth version, but a brown belt that was so wrapped up in electrical tape that you would not be able to see the brown any longer. This excessiveness is disturbing, disgusting, and demeaning to the art. It is a clear example of an instructor catering to either their financial greed or someone else's need to be validated. I have chastised instructors about this in the past and will most likely continue to do so in the future.
[/QUOTE]

thats what im talking about.....the 350 bb test fee. But let me make it more clear if WKSA didn't take all of it mabye there would be less owners who are compelled to test student so many time for the sake of a $10 or 20 test fee

in order for WKSA to grow the individual schools MUST grow,

in order for the school to grow the STUDENT must grow

it all comes back to serving the student well. The result will serve all involved,, all the way to the top. unfortunately the tendency is for the opposite to occur which leave little for the owners and even less for the students

[Choiyoungwoo]

That's not true at all


in your situation who gets the 350 then


in the us it ALL goes to WKSA

[AirNick]

I guess I misread your post. I thought you were talking about the stripe tests.

[Silentmonk]

I never mentioned anything about crime ??

I only refer to the fact that LE pros, with or wo a ma background, that don't teach from a MA point of view seem to have a better handle on multi opponent skills.

thats all

Ok bit lost, are you talking about law enforcement agents or self protection specialists???? cos you were talking about law in the first ridicule of my statement,and i never said that there weren't systems for dealing with multiple attackers my signature says they are not effective. To be effective they must heva a 100% guarantee of working in any given situation at any given time, well thats my opinion anyway. :)

[davefly76]

I guess I misread your post. I thought you were talking about the stripe tests.

you're not the only one who misread the post. it sounded like he meant ALL testing fee's go to the wksa not just bb tests.

:)

[SBNBILL]

According to the WKSA quality assurance licence that is signed by each instructor:

KSW Clubs (clubs that are part time or have no lease to pay) must pay 100% of colored belt testing fees to the WKSA

KSW Semi-professional schools (one where the instructor has another income but also leases a building) will pay 50% of all colored belt testing fees to the WKSA

KSW Professional schools (ones where the instructor derives his full imcome from teaching) retain 100% of the colored belt test fees

All Black Belt testing fees are to be paid directly to the WKSA.

[psbn matt]

the testing fees are set by the school owner, and the amount of test done (eg full belt test or stripe tests) are also set by the school owner, there are no set fees (you could be tested for nothing if you want) and there is no pressure to half test (stripe) unless the school owner wants to. only at brown belt do you get a stripe for the 10 tests you must complete, at 1st dan you test 8 times (no stripes), at 2nd you test 8 times ect. yes the b belt testing fee's are a lot but apart from your $10 joining fee the wksa gets no more money from you for 4-5 years untill you test for b belt.

[Choiyoungwoo]

here it is,
your student pays a fee to someone else (wska) so you can test them for another rank and they are "certified". and what is it exactly that WKSA does? oh thats right you get a certificate ($10) a gold plated pin ($10) and a generic belt with WKSA on it ($12) so why does it cost 350?

do they hire special people to administer the test,,, noo thats done by the school owners who at most get a free lunch for thier efforts and by virtue of participating cannot even tend thier own schools on that day.

so im confused since the school owner is doing all the work and making all the sacrifice why doesn't the fee distribution reflect this? Any help out there?
I know I sound sarcastic saying all this
but I want to love the process as much as I love the art

[TXKukSoolBB]

I want to love the process as much as I love the art


I don't think that is possible my friend. The are many posts (not just KSW) where members have let the "politics of the business" take away from their enjoyment of the art. I myself have had these frustrations. I think that I am now at a point where I can ignore all of that stuff and focus on my practice. To me, it is just the cost for me to do what I enjoy doing and what makes me a better person. In the long run...this "hobby" is much cheaper than my friend who is a hunter...and I can enjoy my hobby year round and even several times a week! He spends $1000's a year for just one season.

[Choiyoungwoo]

I don't think that is possible my friend. The are many posts (not just KSW) where members have let the "politics of the business" take away from their enjoyment of the art. I myself have had these frustrations. I think that I am now at a point where I can ignore all of that stuff and focus on my practice. To me, it is just the cost for me to do what I enjoy doing and what makes me a better person. In the long run...this "hobby" is much cheaper than my friend who is a hunter...and I can enjoy my hobby year round and even several times a week! He spends $1000's a year for just one season.

this is not political it's just business from the school owners angle it nust be heavy
this doesn't bother my training at all I agree that ignoring it all allows for easier training but when it hinders the growth of the school and consequently the students in the school its a problem example-- teaching and training 25 1st degrees and 3 2nd degrees a year cost over $10000 in test fees that are lost by the school thats a lot of rent, mats, target, etc. Its hard to ignore that if your school is struggling to make ends meet which ALL owners go through. the business is tough enough and a trade org such as wksa should make it easier to compete not just more expensive..

[ember]

Wow this thread has received a lot of posts! I'd like to chime in here a bit myself as I understand and have agreements with both sides of the fence here. I've never been fond of the "electrical tape" version. If someone's paying you ~$50 per test, the least you can do is to get them a cloth based stripe (sold at your participating MA stores!).

I can see arguments for electrical tape not being the best solution, but I'm not sure of the alternatives. Are the cloth-based stripes self-adhesive, or would they have to be sewn on? I would hate to try and sew anything on my belt.

I do think that something like the stripe system at the brown-black belt level continues to help with the "placement of students". There's a huge difference between the number of techniques that I know with 6 stripes and my husband knows with his 3, and at our dojang the advanced classes are for brown belt and up.

The TKD dojang I studied at used a half red - half black belt to indicate the black belt candidates. Unless you'd been at the dojang for longer than they got that belt, you would have no way of knowing whether they had just gotten it, or were promoting the next week.

I also agree that 9 stripes on your brown-black is a tad excessive. Sadly, I have seen more. A couple of years ago, I attended a tournament in San Francisco. While there, I observed several students who had so many stripes on their brown-black that within a few more testings, they would have acheived a black belt. Of course, this was not the cloth version, but a brown belt that was so wrapped up in electrical tape that you would not be able to see the brown any longer. This excessiveness is disturbing, disgusting, and demeaning to the art. It is a clear example of an instructor catering to either their financial greed or someone else's need to be validated.

How old were these students? Most of the time I only see tape-rwrapped belts on juniors, who may take longer to develop the maturity for their black belt.

At the black-brown belt level, I don't see the number of stripes indicating a "need to be validated". Around here it has been that you test every quarter, no matter how much you've learned, until you promote. If a student had missed a lot of classes one quarter (business trips, injury, caught mono...), it would be possible for them to only know a handful more techniques, and eventually lead to taking more tests to have learned the material.

[davefly76]

here it is,
your student pays a fee to someone else (wska) so you can test them for another rank and they are "certified". and what is it exactly that WKSA does? oh thats right you get a certificate ($10) a gold plated pin ($10) and a generic belt with WKSA on it ($12) so why does it cost 350?



what does it matter?

i didn't pay my $350 so i could get a certificate and a badge. and if that was the case i got even less for the $500 it cost to test for 2nd dahn.

[Silentmonk]

:rolleyes: :bang: :cry: money the root of all evil :D

[Choiyoungwoo]

what does it matter?

i didn't pay my $350 so i could get a certificate and a badge. and if that was the case i got even less for the $500 it cost to test for 2nd dahn.


Exactly but what DID you pay it for ? and Im quite sure your instructor is your primary source for instruction if anyone gets a fee for testing you, why isn't he the one, at least in part, after all you do the work, he does the guidance and WKSA does..........? oh yes they show up take the cash and the credit for you training

Don't get me wrong there is a cost for certification in any org. but it seems a little disproportionate based on who does the actual work. Think about it, your instructor recruited, inspired, and mentored you. Helped you throught the hard times, and you have developed a unique bond with him and when it comes time for one of your most important milestones the governing body offers him ????????? for his work as the extension of thier group

I don't dislike WKSA I simply hate to see hard work ignored

:rolleyes:

[Silentmonk]

Who takes most of the money out of IBM??????????????? just a question if i didn't like working for an employer i'd use my skills to set up my own business or get recruited by someone else who i thought valued my skills more. Believe that has happened several times with Kuk Sool already its your choice, you won't change the system, so i guess its a case of accept it or find a new one. :)

[Gi Ma Ja Se]

lol the monk has spoken..... very true, nice comparison!!

[Choiyoungwoo]

not really a unique idea but certainly resolves the issue. I have asked this question about many things when it comes to operational policy in a school and it always seems to apply....

"How does it help the student?"

in this case how does what you suggest help the collective student body of KSW? leaving the situation doesn't help, it only avoids the issue, working toward a honest result does... All I can Say is BE LOYAL TO YOUR TEACHER in every way that you can, and don't be afraid to support him, even when his loyalty and dedication go unrewarded/unrecognised by the powers that be. after all, your teacher teaches you, not your style or org.

[davefly76]

Exactly but what DID you pay it for ?

because i had to if i wanted to promote. where the money went to and how it was spent is of no importance to me.

i can see what you are saying, that the instructor should get a cut of the fee but that's why pay him for the lessons.

at the end of the day we are all customers and if we don't like the prices, products or service we can always shop elsewhere.

:)

[Choiyoungwoo]

because i had to if i wanted to promote. where the money went to and how it was spent is of no importance to me.




i can see what you are saying, that the instructor should get a cut of the fee but that's why pay him for the lessons.



at the end of the day we are all customers and if we don't like the prices, products or service we can always shop elsewhere.

:)

You pay tuition for the oppourtunity to learn, which you take advantage of at your will. Testing is a seperate issue. Hope your tests are all worth whatever they cost you ( not just in money)..

[Silentmonk]

Choi yourself and i seem to have a lot of disagreements on here, but at the risk of one more. I don't understand your stand point if you were saying lets reduce the fees then that would be helping the student. ok. If you are saying that the testing fees should go to the instructor then i don't see how it is helping the student it is making the instructor richer the price would be the same. So are you a student who thinks his instructor is getting hard done by????? in which case if he was he wouldn't run his school. or are you a school owner who wants more money??????? sorry it would help me understand your statements a bit more.

[Choiyoungwoo]

Choi yourself and i seem to have a lot of disagreements on here, but at the risk of one more. I don't understand your stand point if you were saying lets reduce the fees then that would be helping the student. ok. If you are saying that the testing fees should go to the instructor then i don't see how it is helping the student it is making the instructor richer the price would be the same. So are you a student who thinks his instructor is getting hard done by????? in which case if he was he wouldn't run his school. or are you a school owner who wants more money??????? sorry it would help me understand your statements a bit more.

Actually i think we are closer than you think.

If a do-jang closes the student loses. right?
and so does the teacher right??
and so Does WKSA right??
Allowing part of the fee to go to Owner will give them a small bit of help in a VERY tough industry. and would result in MORE bb candidates as all the schools grow.. which will result in benefits for ALL involved including the student as they no have a more stable training facility WITHOUT AN INCREASE IN COST

[AirNick]

You know, there is an argument that the instructor gets a lot. He is being rewarded every class by his students in fees. Kuk Sa Nym has allowed the instructor to open the school which is now a constant source of income to that person. If it wasn't for Kuk Sa Nym, that person wouldn't have that income.

The association takes memberships and BB testing fees. The instructor gets all class fees and all colour belt testing fees (I understand the deal might be different in the US).

I don't totally disagree with you, the bb fees are a lot of money I grant you that. I'm not even going to tell you how much my next belt is! I want to progress so that's something that I have to do. I don't have a problem with it to be honest. There are many years between dan tests.

[Unknown Entity]

Heres thought! Now we all know the world isn't full of nice people but how does the WKSA govern the status of a school. I.e what if there is a "not so honest" instructor who declares his school as Professional so they don't have to pay any % of testing fees to the WKSA yet has a day job to make ends meet. What is to stop someone from doing this and keeping there other job quiet from WKSA? I've known of corrupt instructors in the past, not from KSW but from other disciplines who fleece the organisations and the students for that matter. Also on average what does everyone pay per class?

[Choiyoungwoo]

You know, there is an argument that the instructor gets a lot. He is being rewarded every class by his students in fees. Kuk Sa Nym has allowed the instructor to open the school which is now a constant source of income to that person. If it wasn't for Kuk Sa Nym, that person wouldn't have that income.

The association takes memberships and BB testing fees. The instructor gets all class fees and all colour belt testing fees (I understand the deal might be different in the US).

I don't totally disagree with you, the bb fees are a lot of money I grant you that. I'm not even going to tell you how much my next belt is! I want to progress so that's something that I have to do. I don't have a problem with it to be honest. There are many years between dan tests.

Kuk Sa Nim is not the source or reason for any school owners income. I have yet to see WKSA help any school make money or get students or keep students. They provide the art and I believe it is better than most alternatives.
But I think, regarding the test fee, the instructor deserves more than ZERO.
Mine certainly does!!! and I bet yours does too!!!

[AirNick]

Kuk Sa Nim is not the source or reason for any school owners income.
Well he did sort of invent the art that the instructor is teaching didn't he?

btw: I don't really disagree with you. I just don't think that instructors have it quite as hard as you make out.

[Silentmonk]

Kuk Sa Nim is not the source or reason for any school owners income. I have yet to see WKSA help any school make money or get students or keep students. They provide the art and I believe it is better than most alternatives.
But I think, regarding the test fee, the instructor deserves more than ZERO.
Mine certainly does!!! and I bet yours does too!!!

Mine has never ever said that he needed money from the black belt testings, he doesn't make you pay for 9 testings. If he didn't make enough money to compensate for his time he wouldn't do it. He charges a very low rate for his testing fees aprox 18 dollars for every test well it was till recently anyway. I haven't paid him for a single class in 9 years because i help him teach, and i know for a fact that he has one of the cheapest monthly tarifs for any instructor of his level in the world. I have to say this choi all your postings on here seem to be money orientated. It seems to me you are more interested in making money out of the art.

[Choiyoungwoo]

I actually teach MA for free to those who qualify which are few and my teacher does the same for even fewer.



Money is a necessary evil and is a means to an end in the business.

,,, if KSW is to grow money must be considered for the growth of the school.

Be empathetic to the needs of the student and the teacher in this case WKSA seems to be concerned with neither.

I have watched many quality masters struggle for YEARS in the business, trying to be loyal to the style, and pursue the dream of teaching what they love, and end up barely getting by and in some cases giving up because the "business "gets the best of them. Now maybe they weren't the best at business, but it is painful to watch old masters who have real knowledge, not teaching simply because they can't quite make money ......so i guess your right in this discussion it is about money .

I really wish is was not. & I don't mean to make it sound that way.

[Silentmonk]

Ok i understand what you are saying about great people not making much money out of it. Sadly thats not how the world works. But,if you can teach for nothing what difference does it make whether the assosciation charges £1 or £1000000 pound for testings and takes every penny.Everything that you make for classes can cover expenses. I can't argue that the testings are not steep but no one made me test at any stage,i wouldn't have been chucked out of the assosciation if i had not tested,it is still the individuals choice.
No one makes instructors set up schools they do it as a calculated risk if they want to make money they should actually do some research as to the demand for what they are selling. If the only way they can survive is to take £100 of a testing fee for black belts or more, i would say their margins are a bit tight. afterall if you have 20 black belts test every year thats only £2000 or an extra £38 a week.

[KSW_KJN]

I agree, but keep in mind that the test fee goes to WKSA ONLY NONE of it goes to the school owner unless he asses an addition to the fee for each tip. Maybe the apparent greed you speak of by testing for more stripes wouldn't exsist is the school owner could get a fair portion of the BB test fee for testing his own student , hmmmmm seems to me that the greed exsists on many levels.

This is only true regarding BB certification which must be done under the auspices of your certifying organization. In this instance, you refer to WKSA. Masters can award a BB to their students. To have it recognized, they must certify it through an agency. In the WKSA, you pay for that "testing" fee, which is really validation of what your teacher says is true and gets WKSA to recognize you. Of course, that is presented as Kuk Sa Nym approves all black belts, which in a round-about way is correct. This is what your BB fees are applied to. Below BB, the fees go to the school. Schools are issue promotion certificates for those grades and the school instructor signs them. They are pre-printed with Kuk Sa Nym's signature on them.

[KSW_KJN]

I guess I misread your post. I thought you were talking about the stripe tests.

Me too. :) Regardless, to be recognized, you need to apply to a certifying organization. For most KSW students, that is the WKSA. For others it's Kidohae or KKSA. This happens with most MA associations. That's why people join those associations. It's for Dan recognition and what that organization brings to the table. From what I've seen, most are around $300 USD.

[KSW_KJN]

According to the WKSA quality assurance licence that is signed by each instructor:

KSW Clubs (clubs that are part time or have no lease to pay) must pay 100% of colored belt testing fees to the WKSA

KSW Semi-professional schools (one where the instructor has another income but also leases a building) will pay 50% of all colored belt testing fees to the WKSA

KSW Professional schools (ones where the instructor derives his full imcome from teaching) retain 100% of the colored belt test fees

All Black Belt testing fees are to be paid directly to the WKSA.

Thanks SBN. Couldn't find my docs. :)

[KSW_KJN]

How old were these students? Most of the time I only see tape-rwrapped belts on juniors, who may take longer to develop the maturity for their black belt.

At the black-brown belt level, I don't see the number of stripes indicating a "need to be validated". Around here it has been that you test every quarter, no matter how much you've learned, until you promote. If a student had missed a lot of classes one quarter (business trips, injury, caught mono...), it would be possible for them to only know a handful more techniques, and eventually lead to taking more tests to have learned the material.

I would say the majority were young adults. You touched on my point, I agree with quarterly testing of students. I do not agree that every student is ready or should test every quarter. This is a bit excessive. Give them a certificate of attendance if you need to hand them something. Stripes should signify your progress, not how many testings you've attended.

[KSW_KJN]

Exactly but what DID you pay it for ? and Im quite sure your instructor is your primary source for instruction if anyone gets a fee for testing you, why isn't he the one, at least in part, after all you do the work, he does the guidance and WKSA does..........? oh yes they show up take the cash and the credit for you training

All things considered, this has been on of the major reasons for splits in the organization. Many sr masters are/were worried about their retirement and the future of their livelihood. I can't really speak much to the topic, but there are valid concerns and this is a highly touchy topic for sr masters.

[Choiyoungwoo]

All things considered, this has been on of the major reasons for splits in the organization. Many sr masters are/were worried about their retirement and the future of their livelihood. I can't really speak much to the topic, but there are valid concerns and this is a highly touchy topic for sr masters.


Thank you, I believe you are right, and I am sorry that it is true. I think many of the people you speak of would still be around if there was some reciprocity in the process. Money isn't everything. But loyality doesn't pay the rent!

I wish all owners all the luck in the world.

Everyone train smart as much as you train hard!! BYE

[baubin2]

Just scanned the thread. All started by my one stray comment months ago. I think I created a monster.

[Silentmonk]

Just scanned the thread. All started by my one stray comment months ago. I think I created a monster.

Yeah but the monster is quite a good one. And everyone has stayed reasonably civil throughout. Congrats. Great thread. :)

[ember]

I've noticed that the new testing forms assign a technique set to each new stripe. That implies that the organization *could* be moving in the direction you propose.

I'm a long way from making those kinds of decisions, so I try not to worry about who is promoting when. At least, not beyond congratulating people when they do.

I would say the majority were young adults. You touched on my point, I agree with quarterly testing of students. I do not agree that every student is ready or should test every quarter. This is a bit excessive. Give them a certificate of attendance if you need to hand them something. Stripes should signify your progress, not how many testings you've attended.

[KSW_123]

I like the new testing chart. It gets rid of the long brown belt break. It doesn't add any more time to get the black belt but it does give the student the opportunity to test more. I think testing is a great training opportunity. It also forces the student to practice hard because there is no way to cram for a hard black belt test. If you are not in shape it will be miserable.

[Silentmonk]

It also forces the student to practice hard because there is no way to cram for a hard black belt test. If you are not in shape it will be miserable.

This worries me a little. hmmm

[Unknown Entity]

My personal opinion is that you should be training hard all the time. Not neccessarily hard as in physical but also mental. I train students to be ready to test at the drop of a hat. It shouldn't be the case where you slack off then up it when a testing is approaching. A diligent practitioner should be sharp and ready at all times. I know some people will disagree but thats just my own view as I take my training seriously.

[Silentmonk]

Here go the tag team again lol, but thats what i was worried about, people will only test hard if they have a grading to motivate them? :rolleyes: Thats very worrying what are they going to do in the first year of training for second degree when there are no tests?????? god they will be out of shape. :)

[Unknown Entity]

Quick monk!!! Hulk Hogan is killing me, quick tag me!! lol

Oh no here comes the Ultimate Warrior! lol
Ahh the gold old days of WWF.

It is very worrying that people need testings to maintain there motivation.. Self improvement and development should be the motivation. Not the testing. People forget that the overall result of a testing isn't completely based on a testing. Everyone can have an off day. Instructors take into account the attitude, the attendance, the ettiquette of the student not only in a testing but in all the classes they attend before the testing.

[KSW_123]

My personal opinion is that you should be training hard all the time. Not neccessarily hard as in physical but also mental. I train students to be ready to test at the drop of a hat. It shouldn't be the case where you slack off then up it when a testing is approaching. A diligent practitioner should be sharp and ready at all times. I know some people will disagree but thats just my own view as I take my training seriously.

I agree with you, but in my experience many people need a kick in the pants to get moving a little harder. Testing every 3 months wether you need it or not is a win win situation. If you are in awesome shape then it is a seriously fun workout with people you might not get a chance to see on a regular basis. If you have been slacking then the morning after provides great feedback that you should not be resting on your laurels. Either way, it is a good thing.

[kswgreenman]

It is very worrying that people need testings to maintain there motivation.. Self improvement and development should be the motivation.


Some form of feedback, however, is widely agreed to be essential to effective learning; it's easy enough to monitor self-improvement in some areas (and thus provide oneself with feedback, so to speak), but in others some form of authoratitive feedback can be really useful. This is particularly true if one isn't altogether confident, as many of us [beginner types] aren't.

As it stands, gradings can provide the only oppurtunities for students to get some kind of affirmative statement that they're improving (not that this can't happen in class, and it should IMO, but whether it does will be a function of class size / culture and so forth). As such it would, I suppose, be more desireable that the 'reward' of gradings was more detailed feedback on where one shines, and where one needs to do more work, rather than the abstract carrot of electrical tape and associated rank (which tempt one to measure one's performance, and even worse, one's importance relative to other people, which is silly, if not downright counter-productive).

I think I'm partially agreeing with you here :) If grading is just about collecting rank (and imagined status, authority, sex appeal or whatever) then that's an undesireable motivator. However, grading doesn't necessarily have to be about accumilating status symbols, it can - in principle - provide genuinely useful feedback, in which case I would argue that there would be less wrong with being motivated by them (to some extent).

[Silentmonk]

Think what unknown entity was on about was that the original post said that without these gradings the people would lose their fitness levels and not push themselves which is very worrying indeed. Every class i do is pushing me, i can choose to not try as hard as i have to or i can push myself harder each time. Whether or not a grading is there as motivation makes no difference to me. Think that is what unknown entity is getting at. :)

[ember]

I've heard KJN say that testing should not be the hard part, *classes* should. Although I gather this may be a change in his philosophy... I hear tell that he once did a test that involved performing the 108 Torments form (is that Baek Pahl Ki Hyung?) 54 times. The teller claimed that he wanted to have it done 108 times, but Kuk Sa Nym called a stop to that.

Think what unknown entity was on about was that the original post said that without these gradings the people would lose their fitness levels and not push themselves which is very worrying indeed. Every class i do is pushing me, i can choose to not try as hard as i have to or i can push myself harder each time. Whether or not a grading is there as motivation makes no difference to me. Think that is what unknown entity is getting at. :)

[KSW_123]

I've heard KJN say that testing should not be the hard part, *classes* should. Although I gather this may be a change in his philosophy... I hear tell that he once did a test that involved performing the 108 Torments form (is that Baek Pahl Ki Hyung?) 54 times. The teller claimed that he wanted to have it done 108 times, but Kuk Sa Nym called a stop to that.

I had to do Baek Pahl Ki 108 times on three seperate tests. :D

[Gi Ma Ja Se]

Testings are all about the 365 days until that one day of the test.... if you train every day its a piece of pi$$ if you dont thats when its hard.... Testings are what you make of them, its a selfish point of the art really, its totally up to you and how you perform and whether or not you feel as if you deserve that new piece of belt and are comfortable wearing it infront of your fellow practioners.

just my 2p.... im off now :D

[AirNick]

Totally.

I'm sure everybody has a story about how they felt that certain people in their group didn't deserve their belt and that it almost devalues your own achievement to the same level. This happens all the time and I think you just have to accept it as the situation and set your own standards. Personally, I want to feel like I earnt my belt.

[DL.Demolition]

What I didn't like about the last testing was that there where people who were not realy dbn level that had the stripes just put on so they could grade and pormot this coming year. I think it is realy wrong.

The one thing about kuk sool is that you are supossed to earn each promotion but in the end it will catch up with them.

DL

[Gi Ma Ja Se]

What I didn't like about the last testing was that there where people who were not realy dbn level that had the stripes just put on so they could grade and pormot this coming year. I think it is realy wrong.

The one thing about kuk sool is that you are supossed to earn each promotion but in the end it will catch up with them.

DL

Thats exactly it my friend.... when it comes to 2nd dahn i doubt they will be even doing kuk sool, you have only got to look at the tournamanets and number of entries.....! there has been years with 500 promotions to 1st dahn but only 50 competitors the next year in the whole 1st dahn division!!!

[DL.Demolition]

Good point! At least you can trust the sheer nature of the martial art to philter out the pretenders. Only the strong and commited surrvive in Kuk Sool Won.

DL

[Choiyoungwoo]

Good point! At least you can trust the sheer nature of the martial art to philter out the pretenders. Only the strong and commited surrvive in Kuk Sool Won.

DL

I wish you were right about that DL but the reality is that there are "A" "B" &"C" black belts at ALL levels (even Masters) just as in school. and, although some will be deterred over time. Many will continue to advance. All we can do is work hard to improve ourselves and set a good example.
People train for different reasons, and it is difficult to judge all on the same critiera. But that should not take each of us from our pursuit of our goals, in our own way.

[DL.Demolition]

In my experiences the people I have trained with over the last 7 years have been people I have alot of respect for as they continue to leed by example in order to improve not only themselves but others in the school.

You have to take more responsability as you progress.

DL

[Choiyoungwoo]

In my experiences the people I have trained with over the last 7 years have been people I have alot of respect for as they continue to leed by example in order to improve not only themselves but others in the school.

You have to take more responsability as you progress.

DL

Agreed, but you can not allow other peoples standards for themselves affect you personal quality standards. As you encounter more MAists, you will probably understand what I mean. You are fortunate in your experience so far, I hope it stays that way for you.

[psbn matt]

push your self, your students and your training partners, forget about everyone else. if they are rubbish people will see it and think very little of them. if you train hard and constantly improve people will notice and respect for you as a person and martial artist will grow.

[KSW_KJN]

Reading through these latest posts has got me thinking. I truly believe the students who deserve the promotion are those that train hard and still don't feel they deserve to promote. There a promotions that are undeserved. Some a political and some are financial. However, for those who love their art and practice hard, you can readily weed out the BS from the truth. You all have masters and other BB holders who you have profound respect for. I have several heros in the art myself (KJN Chun Duk Lee, KJNs Harmon, KJN Timmerman, KJN Byung In Lee, KJN In Joo Suh, KJN Kimm, KJN Jung Oh Lee, and others). When I look towards what the belt means, it means striving to be like those people, regardless of the rest of the junk. Find yourself a set of people you can be proud to be associated with. If you set your own bar to their level, even if you only come close, you won't be doing half bad.

BTW, the first demo I ever saw included several of these masters for my master's school opening in CA. I remember KJN Jung Oh Lee hammering a series of huge nails through a 4X4 with his palm. I thought that was the coolest thing I ever saw. :)

[ember]

Reading through these latest posts has got me thinking. I truly believe the students who deserve the promotion are those that train hard and still don't feel they deserve to promote. There a promotions that are undeserved. Some a political and some are financial. However, for those who love their art and practice hard, you can readily weed out the BS from the truth.

I guess that gets into what the qualifications for a BB are. It seems like most of the people who don't care about their art will either drop out before reaching the higher ranks, or take longer to get there.

One of the things our school emphasizes is "patience and perseverence." If nothing else, there is something to be said for sheer persistence, that they continue to pay their tuition (one commitment in itself) and attend class.

It also helps to know something of the person's circumstances. For someone juggling job(s), family, and other responsibilities, it may be tough enough to make their two classes a week, let alone have time to practice at home.

You all have masters and other BB holders who you have profound respect for. I have several heros in the art myself (KJN Chun Duk Lee, KJNs Harmon, KJN Timmerman, KJN Byung In Lee, KJN In Joo Suh, KJN Kimm, KJN Jung Oh Lee, and others). When I look towards what the belt means, it means striving to be like those people, regardless of the rest of the junk. Find yourself a set of people you can be proud to be associated with. If you set your own bar to their level, even if you only come close, you won't be doing half bad.

Thanks for the reminder :)