Interpretation of Silat in Eastern And Western culture

[Gajah Silat]

I am relatively new to this forum, but sometimes become dismayed at some the East versus West undercurrents and comments in some threads.

I do not view culture as a static 'thing', rather a fluid process. Culture does not stand still, it is constantly absorbing influence and indeed rejecting it. For example, there has been an interchange of words between English and Malay culture. Interplay of ideas, technologies etc. has always taken place, and aside from some very isolated peoples, culture is a syncretic process.

I do not think anyone is denying the mystical, artistic and aesthetic side of Silat. However, in cross cultural translation does the meaning become lost? Or does it merely become transformed? Terms often do not translate exactly and therefore must often be subject to some kind of transformation. Sometimes there are misunderstanding but they are usualy without bad intention.

My own family is both East and West, so I do not see a conflict.

I do not wish to Tarik kuping harimau!

Salaam

[serakmurid]

Selamat Gajah Silat,
I think the problem in America is worse than simply mistranslation, it is a wholesale "Americanization" of martial arts from different cultures. We "remake" the art into our own American interpretation. This leave the teacher free to claim anything and everything for the art he or she professes to teach. Americans are very arrogant in their approach to other cultures, there's an attitude of outright defiant ignorance of an art's history and traditions.
Sir, most Americans could not find Indonesia on a marked map, let alone an unmarked map. They could not tell you anything about Indonesian history, language, traditions or culture. And they are startled to know there are more Muslims in Indonesia than the Middle East! If I say Pentjak Silat to an American I am greeted by a blank, uncomprehending look. (Which is not true when I say "Karate" but even then I'd lay odds the person couldn't tell me if it were Japanese or Chinese and really its Okinawan in origin) I find its easier just to say Indonesian martial arts.
This ignorance of Indonesia allows people in the USA to get away with all sorts of enormities. Why? Because it so hard for us to know the difference due to our willful ingnorance and apathy about checking up on someone's claims. Whatever else has come out of this particular forum, at least I get to hear commentary about Indonesian martial arts by Indonesians! My teacher, Pak Victor de Thouars at least makes an effort to educate us his students about those aspects of the art: language, culture traditions, Adat, Hormat, and history that many play fast and loose with. As uncomfortable as the process of his educating us may make other pesilat here in America when the truth comes out, the divisions it may create, so be it.
I enjoy languages , so I'm fascinated by Soth East Asian languages esp. where they describe the art I am studying. I know it is sometimes hard to get an exact meaning for any foreign word but I think it is better to struggle with it, so I can understand, you, sir, and your people better.
Hormat

[Sekaralas]

In my world "silat" is a word that describes certain broadly based activies. Among them is the martial "way". Include in this "searches" for "truths" ... which is a warriors way, even though it might not involve physical combat.

The concept of a "perguruan" has been IMO very much "modernised" and infiltrated by the structures and systems of Japanese martial arts - because it is also the most popular in the west ... take IPSI for example as a modern unifier and arbitrator of structures. To my mind it's motivated much like the Chinese creation of the national wushu environment. Not necessarily a bad thing, many people have seen a value in there and gone that way. My family "perguruan" or way is another way and we have our own reasons for doing this.

That is OK. Because in the final analysis, does the activity enhance our humanity? Whatever your culture or back-ground, make it your own, and call it anything you like, absob it.

This is no different from the past. The grading of value, has to be based on personal judgement and the value of that judgement depends entirely on how honest the "searcher" is about their individual motivations to themselves.

Why am I learning joint locks, takedowns etc? Is it so that I can wear costumes and live my Jet Li type fantasies? Am I doing it to honour my past? Am I doing it because I'm curious at different aspects of different cultures ... which only show me how similar we all are? Am I doing it because I feel more whole?

There are many ways, and there are many ways in Silat. There is even an American way, it's called American silat, and people need to be honest about this too. Do I have to like it? No. But it doesn't stop it from being valid in its OWN way ..

So ... what is good and what is bad? The question needs to be individualised, the answer isn't to be touted as the only "genuine" article etc ... because based on our motivations we are all "genuine" ... we try the very best based on who we are.

So ... is there a East vs West thing happening? I guess there is. From some perspectives there is much still that needs to be resolved between the two broad cultural streams. History will colour sensitivities.

Rahayu

N.B. In my history, we have seen the west as takers and colonisers, and my family have fought the west up to and including my father.
In many ways that is still happening. Personally I do not care one way or the other whether or not Silat is popularised and spread in the west, but I am curious as to what it becomes ... because it will become something unique, hence my interest in this forum.
I'm not suggesting that silat is the prerogative of the Javanese, but it dismays me that on topics Javanese that there are so many non-Javanese "experts" ready to re-define aspects of my culture to their own semantics and generalities. However, my advice for the Javanese, is that if attempts to elucidate create an adverse response, then let it be and move on to other things. Practice the silat of the forum ;) ... nek ana wong sing ora pingin ngerti, ora usah dadi nesu.

Finally, I acknowledge too that my family were feudal ... and takers in their own way ... so no body is perfect it seems.

[Silatyogi]

At the end of the day regardless of where your Silat comes from you have to ask yourself the following:

1) Will your silat work when you really need it?

2) Will this Martial science & Art in some way improve your day to day life in some way or another and truly make you a happy person?

3) Will it help you to stay healthy (physically mentally & spiritually) for the rest of your life?

If it does answer these things for you then it wont matter where in the world you are practicing your Silat. And it wont matter where you are learning it. It is doing what it's suppose to for you. The art itself will teach you once you immerse yourself in it. It will lead you to the places and teachers you need to go further for yourself. The only thing you have to do is do it and believe in it.

East/West is truly relative. What makes surviving and attack or threat on your life in Indonesia any different than surviving an attack in East LA?


peace,

Santiago Dobles

[Sgt_Major]

Good post yogi, solid sentiments I wish a lot more people here would adopt.

[Gajah Silat]

Selamat mas Serakmurid
Silat is still quite low key in the UK and doesn't seem to have been commoditised and marketed in the same way as the US. When I search the word Silat on the net, it produces many American sites. Some of these have indeed turned art into a product. There are those sites who are glaringly inaccurate, and I can totaly understand why Indonesian viewers get upset about this. On the other hand there are the sites where the Western practitioners have completely imersed themselves in the art and are very knowledgable.

Selamat pak Sekaralas
nek ana wong sing ora pingin ngerti, ora usah dadi nesu :) Agreed. One can never understand if one becomes angry!

Interesting comparison between IPSI and National Wu Shu!
Surely any national system loses some meaning when it becomes national? That is to say, it will change in character from a closed intergenerational system. It is therefore the variance of the art at it's point of origin that prevents a simple response to the "what is silat?" question. I've heard many answers to that question, and I suppose they were all the right answer.

Mas Silatyogi
A resounding yes to all 3 :)

[MasJudt]

I'm always amazed when I see a fellow American whine about an art coming to America and becoming 'Americanized.' As if this is inhrently a bad thing. Every culture is fluid like a river, taking water from many sources. Silat is an amalgam art of Indigenous, Indian, Chinese, Arabic, and European influences. One of the great attractions to some of the systems is the recent history of practical usage, and the 'mixed' environment.

All cultures absorb and adapt. Modern Korean arts have an obvious Japanese heritage, yet over time they have adopted more Korean attributes. Okinowan arts claim a Chinese heritage, yet Karate bears only a vague resemblance to the arts that spawned it.

So it is with arts that transfer to other countries. Change and adaptation is inevitable. And now, with the spread of digital media and the internet, sharing and openess expands the interaction, adaptation, and innovation. Sometimes for better, often for worse. But this is true everywhere; in America, in Europe, in Indonesia, everywhere.

Change is the one thing gaurenteed in existence.

Now, in my time in these arts, most of my training has come from Dutch-Indo's... although recently I have made friends trained in solely Indonesian schools. I understand and appreciate both of thier points of views. And among some of the best players I have met, once they are in the room together, animosities caused by history tend to fade. Silat can be a weapon for war, but it can also build brotherhood across otherwise uncrossable bridges.

[serakmurid]

I was whining? Maybe you should check your Indonesian dictionary to see what the words "Adat and Hormat" mean.
Change is not inherently a bad thing (although some things have to stay the same in order for us to be able to perceive change) nor am I saying it should not or does not happen. What I am complaining about is the tendency for Americans to cheapen and distort things from other cultures to make a fast buck. Not to mention our cultural arrogance that assumes all other cultures should be judged by ours, and have to come up to our standards.
I like what sekaralas has to say at the end of his post.

[Gajah Silat]

What I am complaining about is the tendency for Americans to cheapen and distort things from other cultures to make a fast buck. Not to mention our cultural arrogance that assumes all other cultures should be judged by ours, and have to come up to our standards.


Absolutely, it is 'cultural imperialism' but if I aired my views on that I'd better go straight to the politics section and prepare for a fight.

However, something that constantly bewilders me is, how can such a racially diverse country like the US be so culturally unaware?

I have met some globally well informed Americans but they usually turned out to be Canadian :D (Sorry Serakmurid I just couldn't resist that one...maafkan aku :) )

Seriously though, I can see why some Indonesians are getting hacked off about part of their culture being commoditised, but I do not like being part and parcel of a generalised view of 'Westerners' either. Likewise, just because someone is Indonesian doesn't make them an instant silat expert. We must try not to generalise, and East and West do often become generalisations. I prefer to concerntrate on similarities rather than difference.

I suppose, as with all art it is up to the individual to interpret in their own manner.

[MasJudt]

Well, maybe my language was a bit strong... but I grow very wary of knee-jerk self hate. I do agree with your clarification though... although I think you will find it is not an exclusive American trait. You will find it everywhere, especially in the homeland of the arts we love. Just human nature, I suppose.

I would take umbrage with the 'culturally aware' comment, but well, there is some truth to that. Although I'm confident that is not exclusively American either.

[Gajah Silat]

I would take umbrage with the 'culturally aware' comment, but well, there is some truth to that. Although I'm confident that is not exclusively American either.

Sorry, it wasn't an accusation :confused: Just an observation/rhetorical question. I have met many Americans on my travels and am often suprised by the lack of knowledge regarding the world outside the US. Of course there have been many exceptions too :)

Mind you, when I'm overseas I am continually embarassed by my own countrymen. :o I usually hide ;)

[SilatSeeker]

What, specifically, do you mean by the generalization "Culturally Unaware"?

[Gajah Silat]

What, specifically, do you mean by the generalization "Culturally Unaware"?

Isn't it self explanatory :confused:

OK maybe I should have said "a lack of sensitivity towards other cultures" or is it ethnocentrism "judging another culture from our own cultural perspective"?

I do not wish to generalise about any country.

I was just dismayed at how many threads turn into an 'I'm right about this" arguement, when people are maybe viewing the same point from different perspectives.

[Sekaralas]

Interseting ... To me "silat" is a word from the indo/malay goup of languages which indicates a martial way, a codefied method of learning techniques of attack and defence ... whether that be physical or metaphysical.
When I use the term silat, I call Taekwondo a form of Korean Silat. Mustika Kwitang was Kwee Tang's silat (which was probably Souhern Shoalin ... or so I understand) etc. etc. There's Brazilian silat, Japanese silat, Chinese silat, many many versions of silat. Also silat that has roots in Indonesia, while acknowledging that even that has had many influences. As Indonesia was in the past a center for trade, acenter for Hinduism and for Buddhism ... there would have been many influences from all around the region. Even an enemy will influence how we fight by virtue of needing to understand the enemy in order to have an effect.

I think the issue gets clouded at the estuary between keeping traditions and changing taditions. If you choose to be a museum exhibit and keep the traditions, do so with a sympathetic ear to the people who are versed in those traditions. If you are modernist and incorporate techniques into your own traditions, that is fine also, but don't do half baked traditions and even worse ... make up traditions and pass them off as the original. The keepers of culture are the people themselves ... not an academic in the Netherlands, or a Dutch Indo who has lived most of his life in America or Europe. Of course they are free to develop their own tradition, but do not superimpose on the cultural tradition of a people who live that culture.

I have no problem that there are people who teach what they know of whateever style ... but please acknowledge that the style has by default become a unique variation ... there is nothing wrong with that. However the new style is spokesperson for the new variation only.

[serakmurid]

I have no problem that there are people who teach what they know of whateever style ... but please acknowledge that the style has by default become a unique variation ... there is nothing wrong with that. However the new style is spokesperson for the new variation only.
Huh? :confused:

[wuzhong78]

Brothers....

It quiet similar to what happened to Kungfu. I'm a newbie in Silat World.... It's hard to judge "Eastern and Western" it's more complicated, more to basic purpose "why should I learn this Martial art".

For example in Indonesia, you can found gap between traditionalist kungfu and wushu stylist methods. it also happened to Silat in Indonesia, between IPSI or any organizational and traditionalist. They exist in same geographic.... Indonesia.

IMHO, let's back to basic purpose of which Martial Art you want to join. For example wushu used kungfu as fairy dance stuff, they preview wushu as beauty choreographic stuff. JKD and any MMA concern to easy to use and "fast Martial arts" (my terminology for Martial arts similar to Fast foods). Traditionalist usually pays more attention on mentality development and takes time longer to apply in real situation. No beautiful movement, but more to philosophy, conceptual and spirituals stuff development.

As we did on Mustika Kwitang, we do different way both for IPSI purposes (medals and points) and traditionalist. For Military purposes, of course we can development slower by any philosophical matters since it takes time longer.

Lot people don't know spiritual aspect, philosophy, conceptual of an art. So they get shortcut by many body building method and include their modern stuff in practice. Fast and strong ... so the result is enlarging Muscles, and use Martial Art limited just for application of many forms, this for kick, for blocking, punching. They forgot the spiritual aspect, when they get older they capability decrease. Some traditionalist develop their spiritual aspects, keep practice traditional ways... yeah, they usually got common body shape. But as time goes by, the get older their capabilities more increase.

Lot of traditionalist in USA regarding to my experience closed they class because much students forgot "the spiritual" aspects. They just practice technically and modernized it.

So brothers, ask your heart... what is your Martial Art practice purpose? Find match teacher, match school regarding you objective in MA. It takes too long if you just want to bully another with taichi or any IMA. Just take western boxing.

I have arraged MA Gathering several weeks ago. some people scare that another would steal their forms. It's okay for me, i'm not affraid. so i don't scare to show my forms to public since everyone could copy forms but they won't know "the substance" and it wouldn't work properly.

It's more than just "Eastern" and "Western"....

Salam

[Sgt_Major]

It's more person and person

I've seen some Excellent Western Silat, and some downright crap Eastern Silat. It's not even style and style, but further down to the individual level of why and how each person trains.

[Kiai Carita]

...This ignorance of Indonesia allows people in the USA to get away with all sorts of enormities. Why? Because it so hard for us to know the difference due to our willful ingnorance and apathy about checking up on someone's claims. Whatever else has come out of this particular forum, at least I get to hear commentary about Indonesian martial arts by Indonesians! My teacher, Pak Victor de Thouars at least makes an effort to educate us his students about those aspects of the art: language, culture traditions, Adat, Hormat, and history that many play fast and loose with. As uncomfortable as the process of his educating us may make other pesilat here in America when the truth comes out, the divisions it may create, so be it....

Peace to all,

Actually, Serakmurid, Indonesians are often quite ignorant about their culture and history as well. We also have a inferiority-complex that compels us to worship anything coming from the West (if you are secular) or from Wahabi Arabia (if you are fundamentalist Islam). This leads to all sorts of sad things happening.

In this forum I have been repeatedly labeled as a trouble maker, sarong peddler, economic migrant, and chicken by a Guru Besar of Cimande: all because I air my views on cultural aspects of silat, like titles, the use of the keris in Jawa and so on. These attacks by a Guru Besar Cimande are very special experiences to me because in Indonesia it is common knowledge that Cimande has no Guru Besar! O'ong Maryono touched on this subject of the title of Guru Besar in one of his articles in English in his excelent site www.kpsnusantara.com .... Yes Liam, Sir, I am refering to your personal insults here, but I will not go low and insult you back. Rather I ask you to share some knowledge: please tell us one name -or even half a name- of a Guru Besar Cimande in Indonesia. Also, to the mods, why is Silatliam alowed to post personal insults aimed at me in response to intellectual debate about the cultural contexts of the style he teaches? I read the sticky topic rules and understood that personal attacks are not alowed.

Because the mods on this forum are partial, I predict that soon this thread will be locked again in a sort of 'Emperor's New Clothes' manner. If so and if not so, some of you truth seekers might want to join the English discussion forum in www.kpsnusantara.com and on www.cimandefrance.com for a free and open discussion on silat anyway, where views and knowledge can be aired and shared without threads being locked by partisan mods, and where the owner of the sites are true Pendekar who typicaly don't use the title, and are also silat researchers who really love silat and are not in silat to making a halo around their heads. Also there are great discussions going on in the silatbogor mailing list.

Warm salams to all,

KC

[silatliam]

Hello Kiai
You asked me the following question !

"Rather I ask you to share some knowledge: please tell us one name -or even half a name- of a Guru Besar Cimande in Indonesia "

Here is an answer
Guru Besar Uyuh Suwanda

Guru Besar Herman Suwanda

Guru Besar Rita Suwanda

Guru Besar Dadang Gunawan

Even O' ong Maryon who you quoted from in the past in his article "Woman warriors and Pencak Silat " mentions the following "Guru Besar Himpunan who teaches one of the most respected perguran Schools in west Java" I can give you a longer list if you required.

So what exactly are you on about ? Did you not know these simple facts. Do Indonesian themselves now not know what they talking about. It seem you have one truth and I'm just explaining to you, that this is only your versions. and that in some cases you are wrong.

To finish this off now I see by the start of your thread you know think even Indonesian are very arrogant of their culture. Up on to you came on this forum Ive found most Indonesian to be very educated on their own culture and very open. Ive done dispalys of Cimande in front of Indonesian diplomats and my students have been praise, Ive been asked to help promote Indonesian Culture and help raise money for Indonesian charities and none of the Indonesian I have ever work with ever had a problem with what we doing or promoting but at every occassion possible you have poke digs at us and its seemes now even if indonesian have a different view from yours there are now are irrogant of their culture by your opening remark

"Indonesians are often quite ignorant about their culture and history as wel"l - written by Kiai

. Talk about the Emperor's new clothes.

Kiai some of the things you wrote have been interesting, but you have mar this up with your constant sniping about us and I believe this is now maybe the 11th or 12th thread you brought your disharomy to. I only wish now that we never have help you out at your camden event as it brought us nothing but grief from you

In many cases in Java the title is given to the founder of a school. My title was given to me by my teacher, which I was very honour to received. I dont call myself by any title in the street my students call me by name (Liam) if they wish they can use the title I was awarded , but as long as they respectful I dont really go into titles.

So please Kiai respect the answer you ve been given

I also seen today on the french forum you were writing again about why do westerners teach the use of Keris and Kunjang in combat , as it only used in Java as a pusaka. Again Kiai - bram this is why you rub people up the wrong way, no matter how many times something is explain to you, you keep going back to stir up the pot (and than reading what you said cant understand why you cause so much frictions)
Here is what I suggest you to do go onto ebay next time you on the net and look for information by two leading Javanese Cimande Silat Instructors Hermanda Suwanda or Eddie Jaffi and buy their videos on Keris fighting. Because straight away that blow your views straight out of the water, "that javanese dont use keris in fighting". So either these guys didnt know what they were teaching and you are right or just maybe Kiai you might just be wrong. We discuss this before on the forums so please stop going over old ground again




To answer your question

[Kiai Carita]

Hello Kiai
You asked me the following question !

"Rather I ask you to share some knowledge: please tell us one name -or even half a name- of a Guru Besar Cimande in Indonesia "

Here is an answer
Guru Besar Uyuh Suwanda

Guru Besar Herman Suwanda

Guru Besar Rita Suwanda

Guru Besar Dadang Gunawan

Even O' ong Maryon who you quoted from in the past in his article "Woman warriors and Pencak Silat " mentions the following "Guru Besar Himpunan who teaches one of the most respected perguran Schools in west Java" I can give you a longer list if you required.

Peace to all,

Hello Guru Besar Liam, thank you for answering me.

I would like to stand corrected but I think that your answer is different to my question. After checking thoroughly www.suwandaacademy.com I think that these people were (are) actually teachers of Mande Muda, a new synthesis and young version of silat, created from many other styles plus Cimande, and although there is Mande Muda Indonesia, the school opperates more in the USA. So the people you mentioned above are not Guru Besar in Cimande and neither did they learn Cimande silat from a Guru Besar Cimande. These people wouldn't claim to be Guru Besar in Cimande per-se so there is still no Guru Besar in Cimande that I know about, but thank you for trying to enlighten me.

The titles Guru Besar used by the people mentioned in your post above carry the meaning of being the top-dog in their school? Do you see any difference with the Guru Besar title you bear? Mostly the title Guru Besar is reserved for the founder of the system and sometimes it is also taken by the inheritor of the leadership of the school which seems to be the case with Mande Muda.

Seriousely I often hear that Cimande has no Guru Besar when I talk about Cimande to practitioners in and around Bogor. Of course I might be mistaken. Please enlighten me if you know better. I would appreciate it if you could share with me the list of Guru Besar Cimande you say you have.

O'ong Maryono's opinion on this matter can be read on http://www.kpsnusantara.com/reflect/english/5_guru_besar.htm


Warm salaams and hormat to all,
KC

[silatliam]

Hello Kiai
Thank you for calling me my title that I was graded by my Teacher and I very glad you reconised it now. But please in all Honesty Liam will do. I dont asked people to call me it in class, so there no need really for you to call me by it. However I do appreciate your respect.

I would disagree with what you said about the list Ive already given you, but I will move on
Here is a few more names

Guru Besar
Pak Zaenuddin Mg
Pak Juhro Mg
Pak Rusdi Mg
Pak Angling Ms

Guru Besar Disparus
Abah Jahti
Abah Rachman

I hope that this enough now for to see that the term Guru Besar is used by some Indonesian in Cimande. Maybe not in the style you know about, but there are hundred's of different styles. In the style of Cimande I'm learning and teaching Pukulan Cimande Pusaka we have our own grading system, not all styles have the same ranking system or maybe even a grading system at all. That doesnt really matter as in the end very few students do silat just to get a title, it means very little to me. Rather be training than worrying about titles. At the end of the Day Guru Besar's Eat, Drink, Sleep and **** just like every one else. I dont believe having a title will save you in a fight if your style of silat isnt combat enough.

I agree very much along the lines of O'ong Maryono opinion of what is a Guru Besar. I set up all my own schools and branches, develop them, introduce Silat to my country so what would be the difference.

I also agree with a earlier comment by another writter that maybe my view of Silat is limited to the Combat aspects of silat, that maybe very true, but this is a Martial Arts Forum and so for me personally I have no interest in Poems, or Puppets or singinging. There nothing wrong with this but I prefere Irish Dancing, GAA, and Irish stories. But I dont keep bringing them up. If you into ancient Indonesian History thats cools . But different people have different views, so please respect other people views.

I will asked you again for a forth time Please stop bringing us in to different threads, I have nothing personal against you, but every time you attack us I will keep hitting back. As a student of Silat the strong must stand up for the weak. I have said before
I teach one version of Silat there are many many hundreds more, everyone has free choice. We are not the best nor are we are the worst, but this is what I love, this is what I do best and for me I will continue with Pukulan Cimande Pusaka.

You may think we wrong, we may think you wrong, just leave it at that. For in all honesty if you keep going on you going to end up having this silat forum taking off.

Regards
Liam

[Jawara]

To the Guru Besar who posted back a few:

Cimande is NOT Javanese (its SUNDANESE)
Herman Suwanda was also not Javanese (SUNDANESE)
Suryadi "Eddie" Jafri was not Javanese (he was BATAK)

Where do find and buy videos of Herman Suwanda and Eddie Jafri fighting with keris?

[silatliam]

Hi Jawara
Eddie Jafri has a video out from the "Fear no man on Earth Series" Tape L front cover has him standing in a combat stance with the keris

The Herman Suwanda mande muda tape was given to me by a fellow silat student from what I can make out the title is Indonesian Martial Arts - Herman Suwanda - Kris fighting systems. It starts of showing Kunjang techniques than Keris

I'm not a student of any of these styles so I'm not sure where they sell them officially, but Im sure if you search the internet you will find them. If not you are more than welcome to call around some evening and I can show them to you. I cant make you a copy as that is against the law (piracy).

Im glad you have an interest in learning how to use the Keris as a Fighting weapon. If you interested Pendekar Sanders my teacher has a video which you can get from his website or if the Kunjang is more to your teaste I have a kunjang dvd which you can get. This was recoreded at Pendekar Sanders last seminar in Dublin in 2005 and has a number of training drills on it.

Hopefully see you soon

Liam

[Jawara]

Thanks for the invitation. I think I'll pass. :cool:

[Kiai Carita]

Guru Besar
Pak Zaenuddin Mg
Pak Juhro Mg
Pak Rusdi Mg
Pak Angling Ms

Guru Besar Disparus
Abah Jahti
Abah Rachman

I hope that this enough now for to see that the term Guru Besar is used by some Indonesian in Cimande.

Thank you Guru Besar Cimande Liam Mcdonald Sir!

Could you please explain to me in what schools these Guru Besar teach and what Guru Besar Disparus means? I have never in my life seen or heard the word disparus!

Cheers
KC

[Kiai Carita]

.....

I will asked you again for a forth time Please stop bringing us in to different threads, I have nothing personal against you, but every time you attack us I will keep hitting back. ...... You may think we wrong, we may think you wrong, just leave it at that. For in all honesty if you keep going on you going to end up having this silat forum taking off.

Regards
Liam

Peace to all,

Guru Besar Cimande Liam McDonald, Sir!

I am not, have not attacked your system. I don't want to get this silat forum closed because you get upset, so I posted an open letter to you on the French Forum you mentioned. Please invite Mr Sanders also to visit http://pencaksilat.free.fr/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=2777#2777 I would be honored to have him answer my questions there.

Warm salams to all,

Kiai Carita.

[Sgt_Major]

I see even the other forum doesnt put up with your war-mongering Kiai.

:D

[silatliam]

Thank you Guru Besar Cimande Liam Mcdonald Sir!

Could you please explain to me in what schools these Guru Besar teach and what Guru Besar Disparus means? I have never in my life seen or heard the word disparus!

Cheers
KC
Hi Kiai

The Guru Besar's you asked me about and what does their titles mean is actually on the French website you been promoting, and writing on , which is run by mas Gorka who I believe is a close friend of yours . He a very excellent Cimande player. I'm sure he is a much better postion to answer your questions. Hope this helps. Pendekar Sanders has asked me to informed you or any other student, he is more than willing for you to contact him directly by email to answer your questions or you more than welcome to attend any seminars that he teaches and bring forward your questions in the old ways. In this way respect and honour is upheld and will stop this silly and pointless finger tip fued.
This hopefully will end this situation.

Peace to all and respect

Liam

[Gorka]

Hi everyone,

Just a short post as <another forum> administrator.
I've decided to close the thread "Open letter to Liam Mc Donald"
because it will automaticly bring hate and war :woo: on our forum and I really don't want this. I'll fight against this attitude on all the threads that will be create on our forum from any authors

To Liam Mc Donald, I just want to be clear about something.
You mentioned that Kiai Carita is "a close friend of mine" you also said previously that he was Jeff and I "talking man". I just want you to know that I don't Kiai Carita well. He has just registred on our forum and I read some really nice comments he wrote on this forum about my work. That's all. I don't need any "talking men", if I've something to say, I'll do by my own (I also think that it's the same for Jeff).
But may be you're right, may be with time Kai Carita will become one of my friend... Only God knows...

If other english language pencak silat lovers want to share their knowledge an their questions peacefully, you're all welcome on the english language part of our forum at :
<another forum>


Peace to all
Wassalam
Gorka
http://pencaksilat.free.fr/phpBB2/index.php
http://www.cimandefrance.com

[silatliam]

I see even the other forum doesnt put up with your war-mongering Kiai.

:D
Internet Wars – Official response

Due to recent events which have been fronted and fuelled by e person on this forum. Who has taken apon himself to launch bitter attack after attack . Which has gone on for many months and despite us answering all his questions, he has refused to accept our freedom to express our views in relation to Pukulan Cimande Pusaka.

We have therefore decided from 16th Jan 9am We will use this official response on all future threads and that we not enter into any further discussion with him or other names he may use. We will also no longer enter discussion on any thread which has been started or hi jacked by him. Nor will we enter into any thread which are filled with jealousy and undercover malice. We will take part in threads where the topic is about the Martial Art and not about promoting one religion over another, or race or one’s political view.

Pukulan Cimande Pusaka runs a number of website at www.silateurope.com you will see details of classes, articles, upcoming seminars. We believe this website offers enough information to the Martial Arts World to get an Ideal of what we about. If you have any question you may email me directly and I will respond or better still get up from the computer and come down to a class. You can also contact Pendekar Sanders the founder of our system at www.cimande.com

Pukulan Cimande Pusaka host’s a number of classes and workshops. These classes are open to all people Christians, Muslims, Hind, Non believers etc.. Its open to all Nationalities and Age and Gender. We are now concentrating on our continual development and promotions. We wish the Silat Brotherhood and Sisterhood Peace and goodwill and you will always be most welcome in any of our classes.


Liam

[Gajah Silat]

I wish I'd never started this thread.

I did so because I wished to start a discussion regarding the interpretation of Silat in different cultures. After all Silat is interpreted differently in different areas of Indonesia yet it is still Silat.

I had hoped if people could agree that they were just looking at the same thing from different angles there could be at least some reconciliation.

I am used to a bit of cross-cultural misunderstanding. I am English and My wife is Javanese. I have spent a lot of time in Indonesia. I know things can get mixed up sometimes.

My Wife's family have a strong family Silat tradition. Her Grandfather was a 'Jago' and used Silat against the occupying Japanese in WW2. Her Grandmother has many horrifying stories from this time.

My point! I, as a Westerner, a 'bule', am learning Silat and my in-laws are pleased about this. I have always found Indonesians to be a warm and tolerant people which is why I find these petty arguements so disappointing.

As I said in the first post, I did not wish to "Tarik kuping harimau!". This is a Javanese saying "pull the tigers ear".

However there does seem to have been a lot of ear pulling going on here!

[Sgt_Major]

This thread has gone far beyond the realms of retreival.

closed