Religion in schools, an essay

[Isshinryu_Andy]

This essay post was inspired by sparkle, I want some feedback on my essay. This is addressing why prayer should be kept out of school.


Religion is a personal practice, and should be kept as such. Bringing prayer into school would only cause strife, not to mention the fact that it is unconstitutional. Various court cases have proven that the Supreme Court and other smaller courts have decided that school sponsored prayer should stay out of the halls. If prayer were to be sponsored by schools, it would certainly destroy any trace of individuality still remaining. Free practice is no problem, as it is a free country, but when you generalize prayer, and force all students to pray (or single themselves out as atheists) free practice turns into forced practice, and rights are infringed upon.

Religion is based on faith. Faith is based on belief, and belief is a result of choice. If prayer was brought into school, say, over the announcements, or, before a football game that day, then it would force the students to deal with religious issues they may choose to avoid normally. Forced practice of religion is unconstitutional and paradoxical. If religion is forced on you, then it is no longer choice, and no longer belief which destroys the faith and completely contradicts itself. Many times I’ve seen friends’ parents force them into going to church, and practice in those beliefs, despite their protest. As soon as they turned 18, said friends completely rejected religion altogether. The natural reaction of a teenager is to rebel against what is forced on them. Wouldn’t it be best of teens were left to their own will to decide on religion, so that they don’t reject it all?

Post hoc ergo propter hoc: A common retort of religious folk is that prayer and religion have a good influence on kids and teens. This, however, is very wrong. Just because someone joins the Fellowship of Christian Athletes doesn’t mean they aren’t as hooligan-esque (or sinful) as the next atheist. Morality and theology are usually found next to one another, but theology does not dictate morality. There are plenty of “Preacher’s daughter/son” types that drink, engage in sexual acts, and do/deal drugs, which ties in with the aforementioned rebellion against which they are smothered in.
If morals really are so important to be taught, then why don’t schools teach them directly? Not to sound very skeptical, but how can we trust children to pick out the ambiguous morals in religion and prayer? The literacy rate is quite low, and a surprising number of students can’t even pass standardized tests such as the FCAT. Wouldn’t it be much more logical to teach morals directly, so there is a great deal less misinterpretation? The school system owes it to the students to give them their lessons straight and to the point, not buried in parables and stories that students probably won’t even read.
The constitutionality-based part of the school sponsored prayer argument is always interpreted differently. People who disagree with the separation of church and state will quote the establishment clause: “…Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…” The way this is interpreted by said pro-religionists is that congress can’t pass a law stopping the practice of religion, so, therefore, it can be taught in school. Perhaps they may be right, but, it was not specified. Since the founding fathers did not specify, it is up to the Supreme Court to interpret their true meaning now. In cases such as the Santa Fe Independent School district v. Doe (a school wide prayer was said prior to home football games on the day of said game) and Engel v. Vitale (a non denominational prayer was recited after the pledge), the courts have decided that it is unnecessary to have school wide prayers.

Our culture strives day in and day out to make people feel more equal, or breaking the barrier, per say. However, what if a Muslim, Atheist, or even Satanist doesn’t want to say the Lord’s Prayer? The constitution gives them the right to believe what they want, so how can they all be accommodated at the same time? It is probably impossible, but that raises the question of who to accommodate first? In answer to such questions, there is the idea of silent supported non-denominationally. True, it may work for some (say, those who practice Christianity and Judaism) but what about the Atheists? Surely, they will be singled out, and even ostracized. Even after them, what about the Muslims? They pray by kneeling on the ground, facing Mecca. Are they going to pass out mats and Mecca compasses? Also, one cannot forget the Satanists. However unorthodox, it is by all rights of the law that they can pray alongside Christians, but how may people will “draw the line” when a Satanist brings in a dog skull to light candles in? But how can we say in all fairness where to draw the line? If you use the Establishment Clause for the support of Christian prayer, certainly it can be used with the same logic as for all other religious practices as well. This kind of universal accommodation is not possible without strife, argument, and probably violence.

Not many people realize that much of the things we do in school are basically discarded after we leave. Things like saying the pledge every morning, adhering to the dress code, only having bottled water and no food inside the building (excepting lunch) are all things people stop doing after high school, mostly because they were so strictly enforced there. So, to those who hold religion dear and important: do you want kids to stop praying after high school simply because they have the option not to?

Many compelling arguments exist for and against religion in school. As previously discussed, some of those are more legitimate than others. The fact is that school sponsored prayer is forced group religious practice, which is most certainly illegal. By forcing religion on kids, we eliminate the freedom of choice and the freedom of expression. It may seem okay to those sharing the same religious ideas of those in charge, but think of the individuals who think for themselves, which whom we usually pride as being “free” children...they really aren’t so free.


feedback..opinions...etc.

[Yama Tombo]

"Christians praying" out in public? The bible advises christians to pray in the confines of a group, church, or house. At football games, also? Come on! Like George Carlin say," You see athletes praising Jesus for the win,' If wasn't for jesus I wouldn't have made that takedown.' When they lose, you don't see them blame Jesus,' Oh, it's because of Jesus, I dropped the ball.' "

Carlin said something like.

[Sparkle]

Good essay Andy, good essay ; D. Although I disagree slightly with the last paragraph, relgion in school at these times may be a little dangerous for everybody . . . . . . . .

[Sparkle]

"Christians praying" out in public? The bible advises christians to pray in the confines of a group, church, or house. At football games, also? Come on! Like George Carlin say," You see athletes praising Jesus for the win,' If wasn't for jesus I wouldn't have made that takedown.' When they lose, you don't see them blame Jesus,' Oh, it's because of Jesus, I dropped the ball.' "

Carlin said something like.

Let's not turn this into s religious debate about Christianity!!!!! RELIGION applies to ALL religion . . . . DUH!!!!

[tbubb1]

yea, it's a great essay.
lots of it makes sense.

the only thing i disagree with is the view of schools forcing the student's to pray.
saying a prayer over an intercom or whatever doesn't force the student to pray, that's something the person decides to do and puts their heart into.

that doesn't mean I support prayer over intercoms or whatever as i'm sure it would offend many people and turn them away from what i'm called to turn them to.

[Yama Tombo]

Fine:

"[insert religion] praying" out in public? The [insert title of holy text] advises [insert religion] to pray in the confines of a group, [insert place of worship], or house. [script delete]"

[Isshinryu_Andy]

not true, Yama, in islamic countries, everything stops so EVERYONE prays. and that is 5 times a day. literally.

[Yama Tombo]

Yeah, I was in a hurry when I typed those two posts, I was saying I agree with Andy. Separate church from state.

[Sparkle]

Yeah, I was in a hurry when I typed those two posts, I was saying I agree with Andy. Separate church from state.

Ah! But CHURCH is Christian! He is talking about religion as a whole!

[Never2Late]

This is addressing why prayer should be kept out of school.
Major disconnect here. :rolleyes: You say this essay addresses prayer being kept out of schools. Then you talk about school-sponsored prayer. :confused: BIG difference.

Anyone who's ever taken an honors Physics Exam knows that they can't stop you from praying in school. :eek: Seriously, I prayed in school. My kids pray in school. How's anyone going to stop them?

And as far as separation of church and state goes, when you go to court, what do they make you do? You put your right hand on a bible and swear "so help me GOD."

What does it say on your US dollars? "In God we trust". You can say those customs are archaic, but they date back to the same era as "separation".
Kinda makes you think maybe that's not really what they meant. :cool:

If morals really are so important to be taught, then why don’t schools teach them directly?
Because that's what parents are for. :)

[Yama Tombo]

Ah! But CHURCH is Christian! He is talking about religion as a whole!

YES, Yes, Yes, Yes I realize. Go back over the essay though shouldn't be hard to address that christians are the example.

[Yama Tombo]

Anyone who's ever taken an honors Physics Exam knows that they can't stop you from praying in school. :eek: Seriously, I prayed in school. My kids pray in school. How's anyone going to stop them?

And as far as separation of church and state goes, when you go to court, what do they make you do? You put your right hand on a bible and swear "so help me GOD."

Why do you think some people are trying to have it removed from the courts, pledge, and so forth? :confused:

[tbubb1]

because they're retarded :D haha

[Poogle]

I have provided feedback on your first paragraph. I imagine I have more quibbles with this than the rest of the essay due to it being something of an introduction, and many hand-waving, unqualified, or unarguable statements are made. If you want, I can provide my opinion on the rest of it. Please note that nothing I have said below is intended to suggest that you are necessarily wrong, I just feel that you could argue your case more convincingly.

Btw, I agree with you. Religion has no place in schools. Maybe at some point I'll get around to putting my views in a some form that might persuade people to agree with me. Can't really be arsed right now, so I'll help you with your efforts instead.

Here you go...



Religion is a personal practice(1), and should be kept as such(2). Bringing prayer into school would only cause strife(3), not to mention the fact that it is unconstitutional(4). Various court cases have proven that the Supreme Court and other smaller courts have decided that school sponsored prayer should stay out of the halls(5). If prayer were to be sponsored by schools, it would certainly destroy any trace of individuality still remaining(6). Free practice is no problem(7), as it is a free country(8), but when you generalize prayer, and force(9) all students to pray (or single themselves out as atheists) free practice turns into forced practice, and rights(10) are infringed upon.

1. Not always, in fact I would argue the following: that organised religion in its very nature involves many people joining in the same practices, and in a lot of cases, for example, Muslim 5-a-day prayers, Christian communion services, Jewish celebrations that are held as a family around a meal table (experienced one once, don't know what it was, it was in German, feel free to look up Jewish celebrations tho you might be able to put a name to it), the fact they are held as a group is the whole point of the practice. Religion itself is designed to bring together a group of people to carry out the same forms of worship or celebration. Worship itself on the other hand, and prayers, etc, can be personal, and may or may not be based on a religion that is shared with others.

2. Why? A lot of people have problems with religions that are based on old traditions, and that are not brought up to date in any way. Stating that they should not change only keeps them this way. Bringing religion into schools is probably not a good way forward, but it IS change, and that is not instrinsically bad.

3. Evidence? Could it not cause an increased sense of fellowship as more and more children as indoctrinated into believing that 'loving their neighbour' or forgiving a wrong done to them to 'earn reward from Allah' is the way forward? Strife doesn't necessarily indicate that the underlying philosophy is a bad idea though. It depends on what other consequences there are of introducing religion to schools.

4. Only relevant in America. Religion is a worldwide thing. The fact that introducing religion to schools is unconsitutional in the US is not really worth anything more than a footnote, because it says nothing fundamental about what's going on in schools with religion in them.

5. References. On what grounds? Was it because the religion in question was teaching devil worshipping and the slaughter of children? Or was it because it was unconsitutional, which again would be irrelevant in other countries? Qualify your statement.

6. Define individuality. The word 'trace' of individuality implies that either something else have removed children's individuality prior to religion showing up (if so, what?) or that the children lack individuality in their nature. The word 'still' implies you mean the former. What evidence is there that religion removes children's indiviuality? Or do you mean individuality in the schools? Surely there is a lot to be gained from all the schools being the same? Unless you have schools streamed by ability in the US?

7. Evidence. Why is regulated practice assumed to be any different from free practice? I would argue the following: That if there is regulated practice, children who do not believe or wish to pray will simply have to sit quietly while others pray. They might even choose to pray to a different God in the same time that their classmates pray to Jesus/whomever. This could instill in them a respect and tolerance for other people's beliefs. Free practice on the other hand happens in an uncontrolled (by anyone external to the religion) environment, and could result in people trying to force their religious beliefs on other people, rather than just sitting quietly and getting on with their own praying.

8. True of America, in name only. Also true of Britain, in name only. In practice, fear and intolerance will cause people to hide things that they should be able to do freely. It is however, not true of all countries - many are not free.

9. The word 'force' here does not address the question presented as the essay subject. It is an assumption that children will be forced to pray. Is it even possible to force someone to pray? You can say the words for them, you can threaten them on pain of death to perform certain bows or drink wine and eat bread, and say certain things, you can make them put their hands together and close their eyes, but can you force them to PRAY?

10. Which rights? According to whom? The idea that their rights are infringed is a personal belief, because I can state right now that I believe no one has any rights whatsoever. I believe instead in responsibilties associated with being a member of a society, and even those responsibilities or corresponding rights will vary from society to society. If you're talking about the US, say so, but again, religion is a worldwide thing, so either address the question in hand, or modify the scope of your examination of the role of religion in schools to US schools.

[tekkengod]

Could it not cause an increased sense of fellowship as more and more children as indoctrinated into believing that 'loving their neighbour'

Define individuality.

The word 'still' implies you mean the former. What evidence is there that religion removes children's indiviuality?

That if there is regulated practice, children who do not believe or wish to pray will simply have to sit quietly while others pray.

The word 'force' here does not address the question presented as the essay subject. It is an assumption that children will be forced to pray.

Could it not cause an increased sense of obligation and censorship as well as promoting group think, thus effectively infecting them even further?

Individuality - uniqueness, the thought process, values and ideals that make you what you are. Religion has done a fine job of eradicating that on every front, public school seems to be the last haven for Atheists, is it not bad enough that it is pumped through our airways and slated in public places? is it not bad enough that they have their OWN schools? do they REALLY need just one more level at which to control us? haven't they taken enough?

Are you serious? thats what religion is built on, single out those who don't follow blindly. Don't you see it?

Estranging the Atheists even further....

Don't claim it as if there would be no alienation, those who chose not to participate would be just as easily cast aside and singled out. I have seen and experianced it first hand. Atheisim is more of a social taboo than Homosexuality at this point. Don't tell me there would be no social side affect, and when you amplify that through out an area such as public school the affects will be disasterous. But as of such, i am proud to claim that status.

[CKava]

Tekkengod you have such a fricked up view on the issue of religion you almost encourage me to become a believer just so I'm not lumped in the same group as you! Your arguments are as ridiculous as the radical Christians you dislike so much. I went to a Catholic school for most of my life my entire family are Catholics and despite not believing in God or agreeing with many of the Catholic Churches teachings I've never felt alienated. Going to mass at school (maybe 3 or 4 times a year) was actually enjoyable because you got out of class and generally mucked around with all your mates! In fact believe it or not despite these attempts at 'mass brainwashing' (get the pun?) Id say a good 90% of people at my school didn't have any strong views on religion... yet from your description you'd imagine young children subjected to such extreme religious indoctrination for all their lives would be mere religious automatons with no free will of their own. Where did you get this persecution complex from by the way? Atheism a social taboo?!? Are things in Texas really that bad?

I don't even agree that religion should necessarily be taught in public schools but your diatribes against religion are just so incredibly silly its impossible to concentrate on anything else!

[Poogle]

Tekkengod: Quite probably. But those points should be raised in the essay itself. I don't think religion has a place in school, except from the point of view of studying 'what some people in the world believe and what their religious practices are' to promote tolerance.

I was merely remarking that the essay is doing a disservice to people who agree with the author, because it is exceptionally badly written. But then, one should bear in mind that I am a scholar and as such my judgement is very harsh unless the author considers himself to be an academic or a professional writer. He presumably does not, and so I intend no offence to the author, and hope my comments are of use for this essay and future writing.

[CKava]

Poogle makes a good point when people use the term 'article' or 'essay' Im expecting to see a well researched, coherently structured piece of work with a beginning, middle and end with logical arguments throughout but the two recent 'essays' have just been long posts. I dunno maybe Im being pedantic but I think calling something an essay invites much harsher critcism than a humble long post on your thoughts on the topic will...

[tekkengod]

Your arguments are as ridiculous as the radical Christians you dislike so much. I went to a Catholic school for most of my life my entire family are Catholics and despite not believing in God or agreeing with many of the Catholic Churches teachings I've never felt alienated. Going to mass at school (maybe 3 or 4 times a year) was actually enjoyable because you got out of class and generally mucked around with all your mates! In fact believe it or not despite these attempts at 'mass brainwashing' (get the pun?) Id say a good 90% of people at my school didn't have any strong views on religion... yet from your description you'd imagine young children subjected to such extreme religious indoctrination for all their lives would be mere religious automatons with no free will of their own. Where did you get this persecution complex from by the way? Atheism a social taboo?!? Are things in Texas really that bad?

I don't even agree that religion should necessarily be taught in public schools but your diatribes against religion are just so incredibly silly its impossible to concentrate on anything else!

did you even read what i wrote? they are all valid points no matter how you dissect it, they have their own institutions and schools, they have no place in ours. They've capitalized on the same tried and true from the get go. I have to say that you and your mates must be an exceptional group of people, or your school wasn't anything like the one i've seen, in fact from your brief discription of it {3 or 4 times a year?} thats very leniant as opposed to the ones i've seen. persecution complex? ha, Yes Atheisim is frowned upon. heavily. I've both seen and experianced it first hand. quick breif example. i was reading george carlins book "when will jesus bring the pork chops" a good 5 or 6 kids in every class where very offended by the TITLE ALONE without even asking to see what it was about. Yeah they are, Killeen and Heights are hell holes of gang activity, I go to a prodominantly black school, also prodominantly christian. so then pick your stand point. it has absolutely no place in public school, thats why they have their own institutions.

[Moony]

Poogle makes a good point when people use the term 'article' or 'essay' Im expecting to see a well researched, coherently structured piece of work with a beginning, middle and end with logical arguments throughout but the two recent 'essays' have just been long posts. I dunno maybe Im being pedantic but I think calling something an essay invites much harsher critcism than a humble long post on your thoughts on the topic will...

I agree....when i think essay i'm thinking at the quivalent of about 2 sides of A4 or two pages on word, which would equate to a very long post indeed!

Tekken, who's been feeding you the dribble on atheists being frowned upon. Both my dad and my boyfriend are atheists, not that we've ever actually discussed whether or not they feel persecuted for not having any religious convictions i've not seen them show any signs of it. Not wanting to trivialise any experiences you've had perhaps they are more the result of the deep rooted link between state and church over in the states? I have no other evidence to on with that statement other than hearsay so i'm going to say that i'm not trying to be offensive just commenting on something that i have been lead to beleive. Over here in the UK we 'enjoy' a secular government as such (well aside from the Queen being the head of the CoE) and i think the result is a nation that is able to expresse it's religious convictions without much hassle. Again though i could be talking complete bull.

As for the idea of prayer in school it's always going to be am emotive issue i think. Having a slot in the day for a form of individualised/group prayer for those interested might be the best way, it might promote kids to get to learn about other religions. And for those that arn't bothered about prayer you could let them have some unscrutured time to discuss morals or citizenship orsomething like that.

Moony

[Isshinryu_Andy]

First, let me present the case that I wrote this essay for my AP Lang class, which I take in America, addressing americans on values that I can observe first hand, which only can therefore occur in America. I write about it because I am part of the American school system, therefore, I have a little more experience with it.

Poogle, thank you for your input, however, I hardly think it is "badly written" and I think it is a bit harsh to suggest this essay does a disservice to all whom agree with me/the point
Let me refute some points:

1. Not always, in fact I would argue the following: that organised religion in its very nature involves many people joining in the same practices...

Yes, but those are mostly joined by people who personally practice said religion, or want to experience it. Nowhere have I ever seen random communions being held with people who want nothing to do with them. And they never happen in places of manditory attendance, or government sponsored events. Have you ever seen a football/futbol game where the entire stadium stops for a sermon?

And you are thinking of Passover, the jewish holiday in which the plague passed over the houses of the hebrews and took the first born sons of the egyptians (last of the 7 plagues)

2. Why? A lot of people have problems with religions that are based on old traditions, and that are not brought up to date in any way...
Change isn't bad, but its not always GOOD either, it depends on the situation, and if the situation is bringing it into schools, then YES it is bad.

3. Evidence? Could it not cause an increased sense of fellowship as more and more children as indoctrinated into believing that 'loving their neighbour' or forgiving a wrong done to...
Fellowship? At who's cost? Who gets to designate who they are praying to, or why they are praying. There is no way this many kids could agree on one thing when their parents all raise them to believe different things. Not only that, but in religion do people stand especially firm in their belief, I would be willing to bet any sum of money that a christian would not pray to Allah on a mat facing Mecca simply for the sake of "fellowship" People would want this "fellowship" to be brought on by their own terms.

That is all for now, I'll finish this in a few hours

[Poogle]

That's all very well, but why weren't these points addressed in the original essay? Only when I brought up some fairly outrageous arguments that I personally think are poppycock did you even begin to argue your case.

No, it certainly wasn't Passover.

OK, so you wrote it about American Schools. Presumably you learn Telepathy in the Medium of the Internet in AP Lang? I don't do that class here, so you need to say you're talking about US schools. Educate me about America. What sort of level academically is 'AP Lang'? Age ranges would be useful, cos names of grades won't mean anything to me. Then I can tailor my suggestions to the level you're writing at. Don't think I'm having a dig at you personally, I'm just used to essays written at a different academic level, and so my suggestions for your essay, which I believe is what you asked for, might be pitched at the wrong level if I do not have prompting from you regarding the level you're working at.

[Isshinryu_Andy]

Poogle, lets not be pretentious
First may I ask where you got your "scholar" status from?
I understand that you arent personally attacking me and I really do appreciate your input, but you must understand that it is easy to get offended when someone refers to your work *(no matter how leisurely it is) as "exceptionally badly written"

On to my point...I am a senior in high school, I am 17 years old, writing for an advanced level class in highschool to earn early college credit. Our teacher has us take everything as we would in college, oftening being quite severe with grading, so we can become better writers.

[Isshinryu_Andy]

oh, and tekkengod, thanks for the input!
CKAVA...all I have to say is wow.

[Poogle]

Poogle, lets not be pretentious
First may I ask where you got your "scholar" status from?
I understand that you arent personally attacking me and I really do appreciate your input, but you must understand that it is easy to get offended when someone refers to your work *(no matter how leisurely it is) as "exceptionally badly written"

On to my point...I am a senior in high school, I am 17 years old, writing for an advanced level class in highschool to earn early college credit. Our teacher has us take everything as we would in college, oftening being quite severe with grading, so we can become better writers.

My scholarly status was bestowed upon me by my educational institution, but that not really the point, the term scholarly wasn't intended to refer to any specific scholarship, only to imply that I am used to mingling with academics and I will probably need a poke when I go off on one about the quality of someone's work. I consider myself poked. (I maintain that my remarks about where you can improve are justified though, and you *did* ask for my opinion on your writing.)

I'm not going to say anything about typical standards that I'd expect to see from 17 year olds. Not because I think you'd be offended, so don't read that as a suggestion that you are sub-standard, not least because my standards aren't really worth anything, especially not to you or the people who grade your work. I just want to avoid sounding any more arrogant than I already do. I would point out the bad points in anyone's essay if they asked for my opinion, cos they don't get a lot from 'oh yes, that's lovely'. And *everyone* can improve, even you. :p

[CKava]

Isshinryu Andy I wrote an essay on 'What should schoolchildren be taught of Religion? Why?' during my first year at university. Unfortunately I only have a hardcopy of the essay left though besides that Im not sure you feel like reading 3,000 words. Still if your interested when I get the chance I'll summarise the various arguments I came across and if not I wont bother.

[Isshinryu_Andy]

I appreciate it poogle, and I wasn't meaning to disprove you as a scholar, just curious is all. And like I said, thanks for pointing out what was wrong, I was a little over zealous.

Ckava, I'd love to read it! Its always interesting to read another essay on the same topic. I have no problem with reading it, so please, post, or email, or whatever you perfer!

[Pitfighter]

Should religious prayer be banned from schools? No, because this is a free country and anyone should be allowed to express themselves or practice their religion freely according to the 1st amendment. Should religious prayer be madatory? No because no one should be forced to practice another's religion.

I am Buddhist and I do not fear Christians' attempts to pray in school let them pray as long as they do not force me to bow down to their god or disrupt my educational instruction. My faith is strong enough that I do not fear the presence of others' faith. I don't fear their influence, individualism is the ability for me to act independently in midst of others not in the vacuum of isolation. I know that you may have meant religions in general but in the U.S. these questions are almost always asked by Christians, that's why I refer to Christians here.

Christians seek prayer in schools because they interpret seperation of church and state as meaning atheism is America's religion. They observe religious minorities given percieved special priveledges to pray in the name of tolerance and scholarly curiousity. That, they feel is a double standard. If they aren't allowed to congregate or pray at all this may be true. But personally I feel that some Christian Radicals are truly trying to instate Christianity as our official religion. Because of that I will not oppose prayer in school if it doesn't force a religion on others or obstruct instruction. Anything more I will not condone as that violates non-Christians rights.