reports personal success (or failure)

[aikiMac]

I went to another forum where people were talking about aikido, but gee whiz, all the people there were very rude and arrogant jerks who did nothing but insult aikido and insult me. They loudly insist that aikido never, ever, ever works or could work in a "real fight" or in a "real life self-defense situation" or against a "skilled fighter."

So I have a question for you nice people: Has anyone here actually, personally, used the physical aikido techniques outside the dojo against a resisting person? What was the outcome?

If not, has anyone here actually used aikido in a dojo sparring match against another style? (Style versus style, not aikido versus aikido.) What was the outcome?

This was partially answered in the thread on "Aikido in a Real Fight," but as that thread is presently 6 pages long, it's hard now to find the two or three discrete reports of "aikido in a real fight."

I have never been in a fight outside the dojo. No one has ever picked a fight with me. The one person I challenged backed down (and that was back in my TKD days, long before I found aikido). I once used aikido in a dojo sparring match against a TKD guy, and indeed, aikido worked. I've played around with aikido versus escrima in the dojo, and aikido versus boxing in the dojo, not sparring but just drilling, and there too aikido worked. That's the extent of my own combat experience -- and I thank God for that!

How about you guys?

[SoKKlab]

ScotsGits post near the NOW on the 'Aikido in a Real Fight' thread, would be one of your answers.

I know a guy who is a Dan grade in Aikido and he uses 'it' all the time in his 'security' work and he is very good at it, but he'd be the first to admit that his Aikido is more like Ju Jitsu now, because he puts a decent amount of emphasis into Striking, Kicking etc. But he is still fundamently doing Aikido as the basis of his Self-Protection.

I know that certain Aikidokas claim they put plenty of emphasis into strikes too, maybe they do, but just talking about him, an associate.

Also, a very good friends Brother works as a Court Liason Officer with people who have been Sectioned under the Mental Health Act. He's only been doing it for a year.

He swears by the locking/ grappling orientated arts for his work, he mainly practices Aikido, but uses, according to him, some Chin Na with it as well-ie some 'orrible squeezes, insertions, nasty nasty throws etc.

Again, I trust him to tell the truth and he says that he uses his Aikido on an almost daily basis and that it has saved his life on a couple of occassions against very violent and determined individuals, including Murderers.

[SoKKlab]

Sorry after all that, just realised that the question was personal success or failure-Doh!

Oh well 1 person removed is almost personal....:)

[cripplefujitsu]

Yeah....hi. I train religiously in aikido--aikibujitsu, one sensei removed from Obata-san. Coincidentally, I'm a legally blind incomplete tetraplegic, which means no negliable leg function and about 70% effective left arm use and 30% right arm use. As a man weighining in at 120 pounds soaking wet, sitting at 4'3 and using a blind cane, I'm a natural target for any bored little punk. About a month ago a man tried to take my discman, wallet, and cane while I sat at a bus stop. Our encounter lasted just barely long enough for his hand to grab my shirt. From there, a quick wrist lock into a hard downward throw broke his hand and wrist in 4 places. A follow-up strike with my retracted cane that was originally intended to lock his arm at the collarbone hit his windpipe instead. Aikido is devastatingly functional if weilded reflexively and properly applied to exploit the natural physics of the human body.

[stratiotes]

Our aikido class does alot of joint locking and throws. I don't see anything gentle about it, it would be so easy to break someones arms from many of the positions we are taught. So far what we've learned is simple enough to be practical as well.

I realize this isn't "on the street", but just to show us that it worked even if you weren't expecting how you are going to be attacked...
The instructor told a bigger guy in the class (new to aikido but has trained in jujitsu) to come try to do some techniques on him. He came up to do some grappling stuff and the instructor just got him and threw him on the ground, rolled him over got him in an arm bar, all so quick that there was no time to even realize what he was doing, much less counter it.

People say "Well you can't catch a hard punch", but we aren't taught to catch it, we are taught to move to the side of it and then get the arm.

I am not sure that i would want Aikido alone, from alot of the positions aikido gets the opponent in, i think in a life or death situation, i'd rather finish them off with a strike to the head or something rather then take the time to do more locks. On the other hand if you are trying not to hurt the person, like a cop just tryin to subdue a punk teenager or a big drunk dude, man aikido is great.

[Poop-Loops]

Aikido will NEVER work. That's why they teach it to the Tokyo riot police. So that if a riot breaks out, the police won't be able to handle people.

PL

[Dave Humm]

"So I have a question for you nice people: Has anyone here actually, personally, used the physical aikido techniques outside the dojo against a resisting person? What was the outcome?"

Unfortunately YES.

I started Aikido in 1988 to supplement my control & restraint techniques taught to me whilst a Discipline Officer within the Prison Service.

Although kansetsu waza of aikido isn't strictly "authorised" by the Home Office as approved methods of restraining Prisoners, some of the locks and holds are very similar.

I have used mainly pinning techniques and arm bars to restrain several prisoners - Each of which were very unwilling individuals. I did on one occasion use shiho nage on one prisoner where a "shank" (home made knife) was involved. He suffered upper back/neck injuries including a bad case of concussion.

I've used a very rough (but effective) kote hineri which broke one of the recipient’s fingers. Used Sumi Otoshi (of sorts) where I was seized on my left arm, this prisoner took a full blown elbow to his face (unintentional I assure you) which contributed to him falling.

During my time as a Prison Officer, I have been bitten, stabbed (twice) both times in the left arm FFS! Partially stabbed in the right eye with a plastic fork. And fractured my floating ribs on the right side when I was punched there. Had my hair pulled out (by female prisoners lol) and scratched numerous times. Almost had a 'sharp' hypodermic needle pushed in my left leg.

All in all I think that makes my aiki vs injury about even lol.

[aikiwolfie]

I've used Aikido in a fight in the street and against people who have come to the dojo to test how effective it was.

The fight in the street I deflected a punch to the face and applied a very rapid atemi. Attacker fell down in shock and with a sore nose. Fight was over end of story.

In the dojo we occasionaly get people who think it's unrealistic to follow a technique because that doesn't happen in the street. A fair point so after several explanations why we practice that way if the persons mind still hasn't changed I applie the technique as I would to a higher student. The technique always works and hopefully that person gets the point. That's not something I enjoy doing but we sometimes get idiots that want to test us and they have to be dealt with.

[ziseez]

it has helped me in numerous times,a big dude at our school and another one came at me trying to hurt me because i wouldnt let them just bully me me,and i told them dont to mess with me well one came at me and im pretty strong myself but small i held str vs. str until i realized there was a better way,i realized that his balance was off one way.So i next saw he was useing more str then me then i use it to my advantageI did a aikido move towards that off balanced point,he fell and hurt himself badly because we where stand on bleachers at school and then the next one grabbed me around the neck and yet again i found that his left arm was a off balance,i swung my arm ducked and used his own str against him which he flung off and stopped.Well the outcome was i got suspended because I hurt the first one that had a high sprung sholder and they got suspended also.So anyone says it doesnt work there 1.Dumb 2.dont understand there own training 3.havent been trained enough of havent tried and looked at things.because aikido is alot about the off balance and moving out of the way of the attack,if there useing str to go against you there is a off balance so justget out of the way and use your aikido move towards the way that they where attacking you from.Correct me if im wrong

[Freeform]

Ziseez, use paragraphs mate, that was hard to read ;)

I've used several of the kansetsu waza whilst I was working as a bouncer to 'escort' people off of the premise's. The police are much friendlier to me when I don't go into striking mode on obnoxious drunks ;)

Col

[Ghost Frog]

Aikido will NEVER work. That's why they teach it to the Tokyo riot police. So that if a riot breaks out, the police won't be able to handle people.:D :D :D That's an excellent point.

We do ju jitsu, but my husband has used wrist locks that are virtually identical to aikido ones. He's in the police, and first used one when he was called to an altercation in a chip shop. One bloke grabbed his lapel and went to hit him and he did a wrist lock on him which stopped him in his tracks. It was on camera, so all his mates got to see it afterwards, as well!! :D

I think people rubbish Aikido because:
1) It doesn't look flashy enough for Bruce Lee wannabes (don't get me wrong, I love Bruce Lee!!)
2) It's a very hard martial art to master. It takes a lot longer to grasp the basic techniques than, say a kickboxing class.

[Andy Murray]

I think people rubbish Aikido because:
1) It doesn't look flashy enough for Bruce Lee wannabes (don't get me wrong, I love Bruce Lee!!)
2) It's a very hard martial art to master. It takes a lot longer to grasp the basic techniques than, say a kickboxing class.

3) Silly trousers.
4) Who'd be a Steven Seagal wannabee? :p

[Dave Humm]

3) Silly trousers.Can't be the "Silly Trousers" argument because Hakama are worn in several other martial traditions that arn't mocked.

Seagal wannabies.. Hmm anyone go to a Seminar of his in France in 2001 ?
His Aikido is every bit as effective as it's portrayed to be. Granted the Hollywood hype surrounding him is .. ***** .. but that's Showbusiness for you.

I personally don't care for his association to the 'spiritualistic' sides of his persona but, his Aiki is strong.

[Andy Murray]

I personally don't care for his association to the 'spiritualistic' sides of his persona but, his Aiki is strong.

Interesting omission of comment on hairstyles and acting skills. :p

[Ghost Frog]

4) Who'd be a Steven Seagal wannabee? :p
ROFLMAO!!

:)

[aikiwolfie]

What I want to know is is there a kata for the pool ball in the towel or is it more likea free practice? LOL

[Kwajman]

Dave, after all that, do you really LIKE your job? :D


Andy's bud? :p

[David]

I used to know an aikidoka with 5yrs training (he was just starting to train live blade katana). I'd only just started kungfu and was keen to play. This guy consistently put me on my ass and half the time I didn't know how I'd got there.

Rgds,
David

[aikiscotsman]

It does not matter how good your art is or your teacher, you could train in the best system in the world( if such a thing exsists). But it all depends on your attitude to training.

[Tintin]

3) Never worn them, probably never will. Get enough 'skirt' comments when wearing a kilt!

4) One word - 'Spike'. It's the hair obviously. Better not write anything too nasty because he's sat next to me but watching the telly instead of concentrating on what I'm doing. :D

[Dave Humm]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Humm
I personally don't care for his association to the 'spiritualistic' sides of his persona but, his Aiki is strong.


Interesting omission of comment on hairstyles and acting skills

LMAO mate nice one needed a good laugh to day.. Yeh you got me.. his acting is ***** and his hair.. well what can I say :)

[Andy Murray]

4) One word - 'Spike'. It's the hair obviously. Better not write anything too nasty because he's sat next to me but watching the telly instead of concentrating on what I'm doing. :D

Hey Spike!

Nice Creesh. ;)

[Dave Humm]

"I used to know an aikidoka with 5yrs training (he was just starting to train live blade katana). I'd only just started kungfu and was keen to play. This guy consistently put me on my ass and half the time I didn't know how I'd got there."


That would be an obvious one.. he had 5 years experience .. you didn't. And I'm not sure what the importance (if any) to the mentioning of a live blade ?? Aikido doens't require students to train with or use a shinken.

Dave

[Tintin]

I knew a few guys that went on a Seagal course in Paris about 5 or so years ago. Apparently it was open to anyone, so there were people off the street in camouflage gi's and other such tragic fashion statements. They also said that Seagal had an entourage of minders stopping anyone taking photo's. All 2nd hand information though.

And Spike says he doesn't know what a creesh is.

[Andy Murray]

And Spike says he doesn't know what a creesh is.

I don't see how.

His hairs full of it!

Creesh=Grease!

[Sonshu]

The also have numbers, Authority, Riot Gear and WEAPONS.

That helps with Riots not Aikido I think it will help with more one on 1 restraint stuff but not riots guys.

[Poop-Loops]

They wouldn't spend money teaching it to them if it didn't help.

PL

[aikiwolfie]

Yep it's true the riot police in Japan get taught Aikido. Somebody must think it works.

[Freeform]

I believe that the riot police actually get a choice in doing a 'Traditional Japanese Martial Art', not necessarily Aikido, as I believe some go to the Kodokan to get beaten up as well.

Yes, they are only there to get beaten up!

If you guys want to continue this debate feel free to start a new thread (or expand on one of the 5 or so Riot police ones that are floating around ;).

Col

[Sonshu]

And someone did say that its not Aikido its more a Jujitsu vairant but still they are tooled up fairly well and not able to do a massive amount to people due to laws.

Much like uk cops.

[aikiwolfie]

Well back to personal success or failure. Tonight at practice I was with two white belts. One was pretty much a total beginer prepairing for his very first grading. The other had done aikido in the past and passed so many gradings then gave up.

My techniques worked fine with the beginer. But failed to work with the other white belt first time. Until I started this post I thought I had simply forgotten to take into account that the other student had some experience and would require a slightly more powerful technique. However looking back on the class that wasn't the real problem.

The real problem was that the student I had trouble with wasn't giving me anything to work with. He had no unbendable arm and no coordination. There was basicaly nothing for the technique to work against.

Had he been attacking me from movement I would have at least had his momentum to work with. But we were doing basic techniques that are static.

My failure wasn't realy that I forgot to use more power with the difficult guy. It was that I failed to see the real problem with the technique. Even when teaching other people there's still plenty of opertunity for you to learn as well.

[Sonshu]

AT A HIGHER LEVEL.

I often find watching students lets me see things and adapt an play with use my own skills better also explaining how a move works and breaking it down helps you understand its application better.

[aikiMac]

The real problem was that the student I had trouble with wasn't giving me anything to work with. He had no unbendable arm and no coordination. There was basicaly nothing for the technique to work against.

Insightful. Thanks.

[aikiwolfie]

Yeah I agree teaching is absolutly the best way to learn. It shows you exactly how well you understand what it is you're doing and when it goes wrong it I find the problem sticks in you're mind more than if you were just practicing and you become more determind to find the solution..

[Sonshu]

You can know all the techniques in the world but you never really know them until you can pass them on and most importantly APPLY them.

Nice

[aikiwolfie]

You can know all the techniques in the world but you never really know them until you can pass them on and most importantly APPLY them.
Well with regards to the application of the technique I wasn't concerened with pile driving my ukes into the ground. I was showing very basic movement and form. Nothing more. I was focusing on this for two reasons.

One of the students was prepairing for his very first grading. A show of raw power isn't required for this. However a grasp of the basics behind the techniques is required, as is a basic grasp of concepts such as unbendable arm and coordination.

You can't teach someone basics if you're throwing them around like a rag doll.

The other student was joining in because he hadn't practiced for a few years, had previously attended a different club where the techniques were done a little differently. He was basicaly getting a refresher session and was being brought up to speed with how we do the techniques.

In both cases the basic form and movement was the most important thing to teach. So that is what I was teaching. I also didn't have the luxuary of taking up the whole class to do this, so I wasn't teaching things that didn't have to be taught that day.

There will be plenty of oppertunity for both students to learn to apply a technique and accept a technique applied with power later in their Aikido development. At this stage the basics are what they need to learn. :D

[Sonshu]

I understand 100% where your at with this as beginers need to start at the begining.

When learning the movement is more important you learn the technique movement then you learn the application.

When you can apply it then your nearing the mark.

[aikiwolfie]

Yeah that's kewl. I just thought I could explain better what it was I was doing.

[Sonshu]

No probs :D

[Jordan]

I was attacked twice by a tae kwon doka, and each time was a life and death situation. But I was able to end the fight in about one second without getting hurt.
And about those jerks, there going to to be around for many years to come, I wish it were other wise. But when they attack you to see If your the real thing, It sure is fun to throw them and watch how stunned they are.

[Fuzzy Panther]

Hey Aikimac!

I understand about people being jerks and making fun of Aikido, my friend. :( When I read your post I wondered if the forum you went to happened to be the same one I made the HUGE mistake to stumble into last summer. I was thinking it was a neat new site and posted about Aikido to someone who was wanting information about it before really investigating the type of people who are on the forum. Good grief!! People started attacking me and laughing at me and that caused me to feel very upset and even doubt my beloved art! I actually came back here and started this thread about it.
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3808

For my own personal experience, I've used an Aikido technique/wresting move (taught by my Aikido sensei) twice on a family member (not in his right mind) who tried to hurt me. He was stronger and heavier than me but I was able to effectively get him to the ground and keep him immoble without hurting him or injuring myself! Afterwards, I was more extremely proud of myself for what I did than shaken or upset by being put in that situation. :)

One thing that can be difficult is that it takes a long time for most people to get good enough for their techiniques to be "effective" on someone as it's mostly a body memory thing and you have to learn how to adjust to different types of people, etc. Probably for some situations, I'm still not confident enough in my techniques but that's 1 of the reasons why I keep going to class (the other reason is because I LOVE it!:love: ). However, both times when I was in that situation as stated above, my mind became very clear and focused, more than it usually is :p ,and adrenaline was pumping and that helped too. ;)

Fuzzy Panther
:Angel:

[Sonshu]

I am guessing it was Tung Fu. Now the reason for this is there is a heavy MMA bias on there and a number of people have tried Aikido. I post there pretty often as Sonshu and get the same amount of grief from them about Ninjitsu - my main art from TMA days.

I stand by the use I got from that art and you should not let it get to you. I think I have got respect from these people as they are serious MA students and instructors but if you can explain why you are putting what you do you might get a bit more agreeance from them.

The guys on Tung Fu are experienced people and do know there stuff but the bias to MMA can make things seem a bit personal at some time. One thing to remember is 90% of them are ex TMA people.

[Andy Murray]

The guys on Tung Fu are experienced people and do know there stuff but the bias to MMA can make things seem a bit personal at some time. One thing to remember is 90% of them are ex TMA people.

It's no excuse.

If you can't be respectful to practitioners of other arts, then just be quiet.

Plenty of experience amongst the staff here.

[Sonshu]

across all wrong on e-mail compaired to how it was intended.

The guys there are friendly but its not really much of a TMA enviroment I agree but many of the similar conversations take place here as they do there. It depends on people tollerance levels.

You and I have been in heated discussions but I have not left MAP because I don't take it to heart.

Perhaps Fuzzy Panther took things a bit too much to heart as her posts on the said site, some parts are put here.

This was posted
“Aikido is a practical art for me as I'm a 5' 3", 110 pound, girly girl who can't depend on her own pitiful muscles and doesn't like to hit things much anyway.”

“I don't mean to be all defensive here but someone trying to destroy something I care about and put so much effort into is upsetting. Maybe you've just never seen a good Aikido school.”

:) In short we all love what we do and the people who were saying things that were not in a positive point of view to the style one was a brown belt in Aikijitsu and an experienced MA person in his own right and the other was Dave Turton. I was raising the + points for it but its not a style I took too.

There was no damage done and the person who said the negative things cleared it up straight away with Fuzzy at the time. There are a lot of pro fighters on the site and I think she took things a little too much to heart.

They can be blunt there even by yours and my standards Andy. There is no excuse but there was no damage done.

Here was the end of the hardship

"Okay. You're not as "in disgrace" with me now.

I understand the false sense of security thing. I don't like to follow things blindly myself and I sometimes question to see if 'this or that' is true or asking 'would this technique really work if blah, blah, blah'. However, anyone tearing down the art that I love so much might as well be insulting my mother to my face.

With Respect,"

So as you can see she was taking it personally and there really was no need to. Hi Fuzzy Panther and I do hope you will go back but if not I understand.

Craig
SONSHU

[Archibald]

It's no excuse.

If you can't be respectful to practitioners of other arts, then just be quiet.


Here Here.

[Andy Murray]

Here's the MAP way, for those who have'nt gotten it yet.

1/ Newbie joins, gets involved in discussion.

2/ Learns that there are opinions contrary to what they have always been told.

3/ Newbie makes own choice to continue training in same way or change somehow.

4/ Uses forum as resource to find something suitable.

5/ Newbie becomes old hand and continues to help other newbies.


If we just bash people over the head saying 'you're doing it all wrong' , they change forums and learn zip, as proved above.

If, on the other hand, someone asks for an opinion, then it's best if it's informed and objective, rather than based on contemporary belief and/or hearsay.

[Sonshu]

People do take things as personal attacks and no one can change that as you cant take away peoples rights to be As****** but the discussion was started by others and everyone added to it.

There was no clear attack and what was said was taken as personal. That is no ones fault but the person who over reacts.

Be it Me or anyone on any forum. It was a good discussion that sadly Fuzzy Panther took to heart, the guys were entitled to say what she said and may have even thought her a troll by the manner in which she posted and what was said (who knows) but it was not out of order or wrong.

Just a difference of oppinion there was no 'you're doing it all wrong' it was civil and she was given views by others that Fuzzy sadly took to heart by saying:

"However, anyone tearing down the art that I love so much might as well be insulting my mother to my face."

A bit OTT me thinks for any forum anywhere.

[Freeform]

[Mod On]

Can we get back on topic please people, if you want to continue this discussion I suggest you do so over in the General section. I'll be more than happy to move the posts if you want.

Cheers,

Colin

[Mod Off]

[Fuzzy Panther]

It's no excuse.
If you can't be respectful to practitioners of other arts, then just be quiet.
Plenty of experience amongst the staff here.

That's my way of thinking. Several of those guys personally didn't respect Aikido and it showed. Disagree without becoming "disagreeable". :) (I just wanted to post my say before we go back to the main topic.) I remember you over there Sonshu (you were one of the better ones :) ). I rather resent the comparement of being a possible "troll" over there, though. :( I remember that I could have posted many 'other' things over there but I was trying really hard to stay repectful to the people themselves even though I was disagreeing with their view. Looking back over there, it still looks to me, that in some of their posts (but not all), they were attacking me and Aikido in general over there (and using some 'laughing at me' smileys didn't help) and at that time, I felt that 'they' were the trolls. At the time, I was just intending to say that for me, Aikido has been great and that I really enjoy it and I felt that TOI was putting me down (insulting my sensei) for my opinion and personal experiance. (How can you argue against personal experiance? if it happened, it happened? That goes both ways for me and him, I suppose.) I felt he (and a couple others on the board) had the 'my way is the best and only way' and yes, I admit, I have hardly any experiance with debate so when something like that took me by surprise, I did take things like that personally and I probably shouldn't have. And yes, TOI did eventually apologize to me and we did get some complementary posts to each other in. Just because I didn't like my experiance at Tung Fu doesn't mean other people can't go over there if they'd like (notice I didn't even mention it by name in my post in here). Anyway, if nothing else, I had a 'debate' experiance and I better know and understand what and what not to do. ;)

Anyway, back to the original topic on this thread. :)

Fuzzy Panther/Aikikitty
:Angel:

[Sonshu]

Ok on a similar note then lets discuss a failure on topic of the conception it gives to the martial arts world?

I for one loved the look of this art and it was the one as a boy I wanted to do, I was hooked on the Segal Movies and just how hard he was (still smart enough to know it was a film but it did look credible)

Still I found during my attempts to do it that it was found lacking and not the imposing force he made it look in the movies (Ruined a childhood dream).

Also it was as an adult I tried to do this so the childhood thing was out of the way by then.

[aikiwolfie]

I think when people join Aikido they expect too much too soon. Most people don't realise how complicated Aikido techniques are. They see a high grade throw people around and it looks very elegant and grace full or brutaly powerful. And it also looks very very simple.

But in reality when people join they have to start with basics that appear totaly unrealistic and they can't at that stage join the dots to get to the higher technique. As a result they become dissalusiond and form the opinion that Aikido doesn't work.

[Andy Murray]

But in reality when people join they have to start with basics that appear totaly unrealistic and they can't at that stage join the dots to get to the higher technique. As a result they become dissalusiond and form the opinion that Aikido doesn't work.

I've experienced something similar in other arts and commented on this before.

What is keeping you back from making changes to rectify this?

[aikiwolfie]

I'm not sure if it is a problem that can be fixed.

You can't pass on the basics without teaching them properly. Throwing people in at the deepend only encourages bad habbits that need to be fixed later on. And by that time ironing out bad habbits is an almost impossible task.

You can't perform a technique on a beginner as you would a dan grade. It only leads to injuray and that in it's self is enough to discourage some people. For other people it gives them the wrong idea of what Aikido is about.

What I do is to try and show a technique at variouse different levels. Just to show that the basic technique leads to something else and the development continues on after that. However I've found some people even take that the wrong way and start trying to cut the basic technique short too soon.

To date the only solution I have to that is to be brutaly honest and strict with people when I'm teaching. If somethings wrong then I say so and show the technique again. Gradualy the student gets the point.

You also have to explain why certain things done the way they are done. I haven't seen any body come up with a better solution than that.

Apart from Hollywood movies, I think the biggest cause of this problem is the wester perception of self defence. People come into the club saying that want to learn self defence. But they don't have the patience to learn basic movement first. They want to get stuck in and start sparring right away. In reality I think what they realy want to learn is how to fight. I don't see anything wrong with that. But people have to be honest with themselves.

[Andy Murray]

Sounds like you know the problems, but you need time to work on the solutions?

Sorry to butt in.

Aikido is not my thing, but I thought an outside perspective was possibly useful?

[aikiMac]

Ok on a similar note then lets discuss a failure on topic of the conception it gives to the martial arts world?

I for one loved the look of this art and it was the one as a boy I wanted to do, I was hooked on the Segal Movies and just how hard he was (still smart enough to know it was a film but it did look credible)

Still I found during my attempts to do it that it was found lacking and not the imposing force he made it look in the movies (Ruined a childhood dream).

Also it was as an adult I tried to do this so the childhood thing was out of the way by then.
Some people can make it work, and some can't. I think the same is true of any other martial art too. I don't believe for a second that aikido is unique in this regard.

Steven Seagal stands 6'4 and weighs more than 200 pounds. I suspect that's why he hits so hard. At my present dojo there are two particular black belts of similar size. They can hit hard and crank on the wrist hard with little effort. There are two other black belts of delicate proportions. They can't hit hard, and they have to set me up just right to crank my wrist hard. I question their combative abilities. But I've met questionable blackbelts in other martial arts too, so I don't hold this against aikido. "It's the person, not the martial art," is a true statement.

I'm very glad that you maintain respect for aikido even when it doesn't work for you. Makes talking with you a pleasure.

[Sonshu]

Its a shame as its the one I really wanted to agree with and do but it was just never meant to be.

Segal is way over 200lbs I recon even when he was at his younger stage in life.

Still his attacks in the older films did look the biz!

[aikiMac]

Segal is way over 200lbs I recon even when he was at his younger stage in life. Still his attacks in the older films did look the biz!
Heh heh! Yes, he had a soft belly in the last picture I saw. But even in his lithe days he was big. There's a picture on the wall at my former dojo of Seagal standing with two of my classmates. He's a big man indeed. The book "Aikido in America" recounts the stories of many pioneers of American aikido. Seagal was not interviewed for the book but two or three of the people in the book tell of their experiences with him when he first returned from Japan and set up a dojo in California. He hits hard but clean, they say. Perfect technique they say, but they emphasize that he hits hard.

[aikiwolfie]

Yeah your dead right Andy. We do know the problems. We just need to figure out the solutions. But it's not something that should be rushed. Although the roots are ancient Aikido it's self is a relativley young martial art. It is still developing and changing and I hope that continues. As the art developes peoples attitude will change because it will be better understood and teachers will get better at teaching.

Even O Sensei as widley respected as he was didn't know how to teach some of the aspects of Aikido. When he taught ki he'd talk in riddles about purple myst and such. But some of his students like Koichi Tohei figured out what he was on about and found ways to teach it to other people in language they could understand.