[China] For those who have learned both Mandarin and Japanese

[Pacmaster]

I'm looking to learn the two languages, and i'd like to take the path of least resistance. You know, learn the easier one first to prepare for the harder and all that. Anyway, if you've learned both, which order would you suggest?

[CrazyMoonwalker]

I'm looking to learn the two languages, and i'd like to take the path of least resistance. You know, learn the easier one first to prepare for the harder and all that. Anyway, if you've learned both, which order would you suggest?

You are in for a mighty task man. I haven't studied them, but i have heard more than once that mandarin is slightly easier than Japanese for an english speaker.

I also think that given the rise of China, Mandarin will be more useful to you in the future.

[CKava]

That's quite difficult to say Pacmaster as both languages are quite different. The similarity between them is found in the writing i.e. that Japanese writing contains kanji (chinese characters) alongside hiragana and katakana (the Japanese alphabet systems). So basically if you learn Japanese kanji you'll find you recognise some Chinese characters and vice versa but that tells you nothing about the pronunciation and can also be slightly miselading as often the same character has come to have different meanings in the two languages. So basically I would suggest whatever language you have the most passion for would be the best one to start with as languages are difficult and its the one that you are most likely to stick at that is the best choice. IF its equal well heres some points that might help you decide:

Japanese is not a tonal language, it has two alphabets which makes reading slightly easier, it includes alot of 'loan words' from English which are recognisable but are pronounced in a distinctly Japanese way BUT its levels of formality can be quite annoying and it is a subject object verb language which can be quite odd initially for European speakers.

Mandarin is a tonal language, has no alphabet so everything is written in characters which can make it a bit difficult to read before your able to 'get the context' of the writing BUT it is a subject verb object language which is what most European speakers are used to and I have no idea about its levels of formality but I have a feeling they are going to be less intrusive those in Japanese.

And thats about all I can say. Hope some of that helps and good luck whatever you chose.

[awakened nature]

What are your reasons for learning? You just decided to?

If there is relevance to the style of martial arts your learning then learn the styles native language, eg. kung fu from china.

[slipthejab]

Ditto what Ckava says.

I wouldn't suggest attempting to learn both Japanese and Mandarin at the same time. You most likely won't have enough time to practice both. Going at both the Japanese pronunciation and the Chinese pronunciation and meaning of the same character would be a nightmare.

If you want to learn to speak it - then I suggest you choose one... get a tutor and spend as much time around the people of whatever language you choose. If that means you eat in Chinatown on a daily basis... so be it. Or it could mean you end up in the Sushi shop. :D

I've repeatedly run across people who have spent a massive amount of time in school/university learning to 'speak' Chinese.... and then when they come to China... they are completely lost as to how to deal with the Chinese language on the ground.

As for reading Chinese... even after having lived in Asia/Hong Kong/Mainland China for the past 15 years I can only read a handful of characters and run across very, very few westerners who can. To get through the average Chinese newspaper... let's say the Ming Pao Daily... you need a good understanding of at least 14,000 characters... give or take a few hundred. :eek:

Think about that for a minute. :D


Japanese I only have limited exposure to... but I personally feel that Japanese would be far easier to deal with... but again... it comes down to speaking it on a regular daily basis to really get it down. With Japanese you often run across westerners who the Japanese think are gay... :p

Why?

Because they learned their Japanese from Japanese girlfriends and the women speak a fair bit different from the men. So they pop off with Japanese and the Japanese men get a funny look on their face... :D

Looks like your gonna have to move to China or Japan. :D

Never hurts to study any language - but if you want to realistically pick up a spoken language you need to be practicing it on a daily basis. Day in day out... where you're in a situation where you're forced to sink or swim based on you vocabulary and pronunciation... not exactly the easiest situation to end up in the west.

Good luck and keep at it.

[Shadowdh]

I've repeatedly run across people who have spent a massive amount of time in school/university learning to 'speak' Chinese.... and then when they come to China... they are completely lost as to how to deal with the Chinese language on the ground.

As for reading Chinese... even after having lived in Asia/Hong Kong/Mainland China for the past 15 years I can only read a handful of characters and run across very, very few westerners who can. To get through the average Chinese newspaper... let's say the Ming Pao Daily... you need a good understanding of at least 14,000 characters... give or take a few hundred. :eek:


While I agree it will take alot of time studying even one of those languages its not as unsurmountable as STJ would have you believe... I know quite a few westerners who can speak basic conversational Mandarin after a relatively short time (but lots of study and practice)... I have several western (UK) friends who go to China regularly and have no problem at all speaking and being understood... Even after a few months at uni I dont have a problem speaking in Chinese with native Chinese people and this includes my Shifu... but do practice as often as you can and listen, read and speak it as much as possible....

As for the reading... hmmm the 14000 seems a tad high as after 3-4000 characters you should be able to read most newpapers and magazines... I am not sure why you cant read much STJ, after few months I have picked up about 4-500 characters and can read simple texts... (VERY simple as in those meant for infants...) by the end of my uni course they tell me it will be around 4000 characters and perhaps more if I study hard enough... I do admit its damn frustrating though when I have learned some and cant remember what they are... but that gives me more motivation to learn them...

Personally I would choose one language at the moment to study, unless you are particularly gifted at langs or have shed loads of study time to do it in... I did start with Russian and then went into Chinese but now find I just dont have the time for both (could be something to do with doing a MSc at the same time though)... if youre having trouble deciding check out chinese-forums.com as they have people who study both... they may help you...

[slipthejab]

While I agree it will take alot of time studying even one of those languages its not as unsurmountable as STJ would have you believe... I know quite a few westerners who can speak basic conversational Mandarin after a relatively short time (but lots of study and practice)... I have several western (UK) friends who go to China regularly and have no problem at all speaking and being understood... Even after a few months at uni I dont have a problem speaking in Chinese with native Chinese people and this includes my Shifu... but do practice as often as you can and listen, read and speak it as much as possible....

I shoud clarify when I say speak I mean to be able to do more than just speak martial arts terms and order Chinese food - or for that matter speak over the telephone with zero visual cues. After having lived here in Asia for 15 years I still find it rare to come across westerners that can discuss abstract concepts in Chinese.

I find it a good laugh when people from Uni get to China and go at it from a textbook angle. It's generally less than stellar. But hey whatever floats their boat.


As for the reading... hmmm the 14000 seems a tad high as after 3-4000 characters you should be able to read most newpapers and magazines... I am not sure why you cant read much STJ, after few months I have picked up about 4-500 characters and can read simple texts... (VERY simple as in those meant for infants...) by the end of my uni course they tell me it will be around 4000 characters and perhaps more if I study hard enough... I do admit its damn frustrating though when I have learned some and cant remember what they are... but that gives me more motivation to learn them...

My reason for not reading much is that I don't study it. I never have... I picked up what little I need for professional reasons. That's it. Additionally I preferred Thai and Laotian to Chinese so I spent the time learning the Thai script... I still find it more interesting. Speaking Chinese for the westerner is far more important than reading when you live in China... try it sometime.

Additionally - as there is a difference in the characters between Mandarin and Cantonese... it will be harder or not depending on which kind of Chinese you go with.

As for the number of characters to read a newspaper - hmmm... I wonder what publications you're speaking of? Ever try to work your way through a version of the Ming Pao Daily? :D

[Shadowdh]

I shoud clarify when I say speak I mean to be able to do more than just speak martial arts terms and order Chinese food - or for that matter speak over the telephone with zero visual cues. After having lived here in Asia for 15 years I still find it rare to come across westerners that can discuss abstract concepts in Chinese.

Yes I did get that from your post... and I totally mean more than the few words you seem to have picked up in your 15 years... most of these guys are fluent and in fact one of them apparantly sounds like a taiwanese person on the phone (I have this on authority from a native Chinese person, so I am pretty sure he would know what he was on about)... it could be the reason my Chinese (as in native) teachers spend so much time on tones (of which there are 4 in Mandarin and more I know in Cantonese)... also by abstract concepts do you mean concepts of philosophy and other ideas that may not be day to day stuff...?

I find it a good laugh when people from Uni get to China and go at it from a textbook angle. It's generally less than stellar. But hey whatever floats their boat.

Good on ya mate... I have no doubt some do and they must learn pretty quick that life isnt a text book, funny that... but then hey they will probably integrate faster than 15 years...

My reason for not reading much is that I don't study it. I never have... I picked up what little I need for professional reasons. That's it. Additionally I preferred Thai and Laotian to Chinese so I spent the time learning the Thai script... I still find it more interesting. Speaking Chinese for the westerner is far more important than reading when you live in China... try it sometime.

Thats cool, I personally prefer Chinese, isnt bad and is interesting but I am the other way... Laotian must be pretty cool though... I will be trying it btw in summer as I am headed there for study/sight seeing and if lucky some training too...

Additionally - as there is a difference in the characters between Mandarin and Cantonese... it will be harder or not depending on which kind of Chinese you go with.

As for the number of characters to read a newspaper - hmmm... I wonder what publications you're speaking of? Ever try to work your way through a version of the Ming Pao Daily? :D

I was talking about Mandarin... and realise the difference between Mandarin and Cantonese but must admit I thought it was more the spoken lang that had the diff than written... I have been told by many who have studied Mandarin in the past and are fluent now as well as by my native teachers that 3-4000 is about what you need for the daily... you do however need more if you wish to pursue a more technical path careerwise or wish to become "literate" (as in the sense of phd not can read)... you are more than welcome to argue with my teachers if you like but for now I will take their word for it... you could also look at the site I mentioned and find the same on there...

[slipthejab]

Yes I did get that from your post... and I totally mean more than the few words you seem to have picked up in your 15 years...
LOL! I think you misundestood what I posted. I am fluent in Chinese... Cantonese 100%(spoken)... Mandarin 80%(spoken). So it's more than just a few words it's a working vocabulary having lived and worked here for 15 years. :D

most of these guys are fluent and in fact one of them apparantly sounds like a taiwanese person on the phone (I have this on authority from a native Chinese person, so I am pretty sure he would know what he was on about)... it could be the reason my Chinese (as in native) teachers spend so much time on tones (of which there are 4 in Mandarin and more I know in Cantonese)...

:D
Charming.... I wouldn't wish sounding like a Taiwanese on my worst enemy.


also by abstract concepts do you mean concepts of philosophy and other ideas that may not be day to day stuff...?
Yup... that'd be abstract.


Thats cool, I personally prefer Chinese, isnt bad and is interesting but I am the other way... Laotian must be pretty cool though... I will be trying it btw in summer as I am headed there for study/sight seeing and if lucky some training too...
Yeah if you make it you'll have a good time. Pretty hard not to. :D

I was talking about Mandarin... and realise the difference between Mandarin and Cantonese but must admit I thought it was more the spoken lang that had the diff than written... I have been told by many who have studied Mandarin in the past and are fluent now as well as by my native teachers that 3-4000 is about what you need for the daily... you do however need more if you wish to pursue a more technical path careerwise or wish to become "literate" (as in the sense of phd not can read)... you are more than welcome to argue with my teachers if you like but for now I will take their word for it... you could also look at the site I mentioned and find the same on there...

No argument from me. Suit yourself... or pick up a Chinese newspaper and work your way through the editorials column. :D

[Shadowdh]

LOL! I think you misundestood what I posted. I am fluent in Chinese... Cantonese 100%(spoken)... Mandarin 80%(spoken). So it's more than just a few words it's a working vocabulary having lived and worked here for 15 years. :D

AHhh tis indeed the fact I misunderstood... I mixed your reading and speak ability...

:D
Charming.... I wouldn't wish sounding like a Taiwanese on my worst enemy.


LOL... I wont tell him that... :D


Yup... that'd be abstract.

Thought as much....


Yeah if you make it you'll have a good time. Pretty hard not to. :D

Yeah man so I have heard... and I will be having a blast (and studying hard)... but I keep telling the wife I WILL miss her...lol

No argument from me. Suit yourself... or pick up a Chinese newspaper and work your way through the editorials column. :D

I do on a frequent basis... I pick up words and even sentances here and there but am no where near fluent enough to read one cover to cover... cheers mate...

[slipthejab]

Yeah man so I have heard... and I will be having a blast (and studying hard)... but I keep telling the wife I WILL miss her...lol

two things:

1) Asia is hard on marriages

2) What happens on the mile stays on the mile


:D

[Shadowdh]

:D... Well this is one post I WONT be letting the mrs see... :D

I am already kidding her about geisha girls and whatnot (I know its Japan but she lived there for a couple of years when younger so its easier to rib her about that.. although I could ask about concubines I suppose... ouch just imagining the whacks I will be getting...)

[slipthejab]

Whatever you do... just let sleeping dogs lay.

Those jokes will come back to haunt you 10 fold. Trust me. :D

[Shadowdh]

Thanks for the pep talk STJ....

BTW found out that Canonese has more syllables than Mandarin (plus more tones of course) so that could be the difference in how many characters you need to know for reading etc...

[Pacmaster]

thanks!