Hapkido and law enforcement

[MJR]

Recently I've been training a few police officers who joined my small training group out here in Toronto. They seem quite happy with what I've been doing with them and have been putting techniques into practise on the job. However I found I've had to adapt more than a few things from my traditional way of doing things.

For others teaching law enforcement out there; what are some of the challenges you've encountered in teaching hapkido to police officers?

Just curious,

[Korpy]

Well I don't know about teaching, but I also have a police officer in my class too. He's a state trooper and he loves Hapkido.

[Thomas]

Recently I've been training a few police officers who joined my small training group out here in Toronto. They seem quite happy with what I've been doing with them and have been putting techniques into practise on the job. However I found I've had to adapt more than a few things from my traditional way of doing things.

For others teaching law enforcement out there; what are some of the challenges you've encountered in teaching hapkido to police officers?

Just curious,

Main issues:
-training time, especially around LEO's schedules and just having the energy to come in and train after work

-reliance on guns, pepper spray, etc... "I don't need martial arts" attitude

- Not a lot of LEO's (or even potential martial arts students) have the time, energy, and dedication to stick with it long enough to learn the whole system... many just want "enough" to protect them

-Listening to a "non-cop"... what can he know?

Something you may check out if you can is the IPDTI course (www.ichf.com/Ipdti/IPDTI.htm) that was set up by the ICHF (Combat Hapkido). Basically it is a nice couple day course that presents the bare-bones of Hapkido that can be taught and practiced fairly easily and also falls within the contexts of LEO-specific skills (like de-escalation, firearms retention, handcuffing, etc). Greta for LEOs and martial artists! I loved the course.

[JimH]

The main problem is that most civilians are trained in the defense portion,while an LEO ,most times ,is the one trying to apprehend ,grab or control an opponent,all moves do not come as a reaction to the opponents attack.

So first things would be how to apprehend and control while the person has their arms down,arm up in front non confrontational ,or arms raised confrontational to arms raised high as if they are giving up.

Then we have the grabs on the pass,when we act as if we are going for someone else and then grab their hand or arm and go into a lock,a control,pain compliance or takedown,like a center lock or a grab and turn into an arm bar or hammer lock.

After they learn this sort of offensive use of grabs and locks then show them common defenses from the most common attacks,if you let them show you what they encounter the most,then you can develop or show them a defense that may lead into a takedown and control.

I hope this helps
(you could also ask them what they would like to see and learn in the class,and the priority order for such topics and training)

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

Althought I agree with everything that has been said so far, when anyone comes into my dojang, they are treated the same and learn the same curriculum - period. I could care less what their job in the real world is except to get to know them. If an LEO wants extra, or particular training in a certain aspect of Hapkido, they can attend a seminar or get private lessons. Most of the LEO's in my classes don't even want to be identified as such - and tend to go to great pains to "fit in" with the rest of the group.

If they came to learn the art, that is what they get, the art. Everyone that comes in has to decide if they have the time and dedication it takes to train - I have classes offered 7 days a week, 350 days a year - I can't do much better than that - if their schedule does not allow for that - I probably can't help them...

[shadow warrior]

One aspect which is well understood by ANYONE who have carried firearms in the discharging of their duties is the retention of your firearm during physical confrontations. Many Hapkido techniques require the use of two hands to execute. This puts the person who is armed, but has not yet drawn their weapon in a vulnerable position of having their own sidearm drawn by the suspect(s) and used against them.

This is why if at all possible, most higher risk arrests are made at gunpoint with more than one officer on the scene (average 3.1 in Toronto). They are taught to reduce the risk to themselves to a minimum. This means avoiding ANY physical confrontations whenever possible!

The rank and file officers rarely have the time (due to shift work, extra pay duty opportunities and family commitments) to train enough to become proficient in advanced self defence skill sets. I have had some special unit members from RCMP, some Military Police and OPP(riot squad) dedicate some time to learning selected aspects of Hapkido such as knife defences, control and arrest ect., but the transient nature of the operations, locations and inter-agency co-operation make long term Hapkido skill set development a rare event among rank and file as well as specialized law enforcement personel. This is not to say that some people never develop higher end skill through peer skill sharing. Some bodyguards on the PM's protection group were trained to a fairly high level in the mid 90's due to the now famous pie throwing incident which demonstrated a certain vulnerability.

It is worthy of note to observe that when teams such as ETF and Holdup Squad are given ongoing extra training, it is mostly in firearms, electronic devices and military tactics (building clearing ect.). They are also required to maintain good physical conditioning beyond rank and file officers.

Maintaining possession your own firearm during arrests is the number one priority. Anyone training LE personel should have significant experience in the theory and practice of carrying same. Any Hapkido that LE personel may learn will help them at some point, but it is not a priority for most involved in the field at large.

Kevin is right..if they want to learn..they learn what other people do..I don't modify anything. Change whatever skill sets you want..they are taught to draw their firearm when they feel threatened, not try to physically overpower the suspect. It is their view that if you are in control of your firearm, (ie. it is in your hands. It is more difficult for a person to take it away from you..by force)

IMHO

[Dr.Syn]

Main issues:
-training time, especially around LEO's schedules and just having the energy to come in and train after work

-reliance on guns, pepper spray, etc... "I don't need martial arts" attitude

- Not a lot of LEO's (or even potential martial arts students) have the time, energy, and dedication to stick with it long enough to learn the whole system... many just want "enough" to protect them

-Listening to a "non-cop"... what can he know?

Something you may check out if you can is the IPDTI course (www.ichf.com/Ipdti/IPDTI.htm) that was set up by the ICHF (Combat Hapkido). Basically it is a nice couple day course that presents the bare-bones of Hapkido that can be taught and practiced fairly easily and also falls within the contexts of LEO-specific skills (like de-escalation, firearms retention, handcuffing, etc). Greta for LEOs and martial artists! I loved the course.

Hey Thomas.
That's the same s**t I hear from the officers in my department..Happy New Year..

[Dr.Syn]

One aspect which is well understood by ANYONE who have carried firearms in the discharging of their duties is the retention of your firearm during physical confrontations. Many Hapkido techniques require the use of two hands to execute. This puts the person who is armed, but has not yet drawn their weapon in a vulnerable position of having their own sidearm drawn by the suspect(s) and used against them.

The LEO must retrain (as I did) himself to take a defensive stance with his weapon side back..

This is why if at all possible, most higher risk arrests are made at gunpoint with more than one officer on the scene (average 3.1 in Toronto). They are taught to reduce the risk to themselves to a minimum. This means avoiding ANY physical confrontations whenever possible

That's great if you KNOW it's going to be a felony stop..I've had a traffic stops that escaladed into a serious confrontations..



Maintaining possession your own firearm during arrests is the number one priority.

Yes it is..

Anyone training LE personel should have significant experience in the theory and practice of carrying same.

It would help..


Any Hapkido that LE personel may learn will help them at some point, but it is not a priority for most involved in the field at large

BULLS**t!!!! Keeping an officers self defense skills active SHOULD be a priority for ALL... Me I study Combat Hapkido and teach the IPDTI course..The skills from CH have helped me numerous times..

[shadow warrior]

Dr. Syn:

Your personal opinion is not supported by the facts.

Can you produce ANY credible US emperical evidence to support your bull*** claim.

In 2001 (Wortley et all) did a major follow up study of LE in Canada which found LESS THAN 15% of LE personel actively train in any type of martial art or self defence on a regular basis outside of the workplace! At the Ontario Police college here in Toronto where all police are trained they receive a grand total of 34 hours of self defence training during their entire course. This includes, handcuffing, stick work, some boxing, wrestling, placing suspects in car, removing same. That is total 34 hours! (Less than 3 hours per week). I know because at one time I was involved in this training! Heck, the police union themselves admit that very few officers EVER enhance this training on their own dime. They were looking for money to develop outside training during a recent contract dispute.This is a proven fact found in numerous studies. In contrast to this they spend most of their time on classroom work related to the criminal code, firearm training, note taking ect.

I am glad your training has helped you in some situations. By making self defence training a priority, you are expanding your skills beyond the average by far! You are not the rule, but the exception.

If you are faced with a suspect with a knife do you: (a) attempt to disarm the suspect by physical force or (b) draw your firearm.
The nightly news gives that answer. We have had a number of people shot by police here the last five years in just such situations. This is the training they receive!

You are in the minority, unless the US LE are a completely different animal than here. Most young LE people I have met would rather lift weights or engage in other hobby activities than train 6-8 hours a week in self defence. Yes, I train a few motivated elite enforcement personel involved in intelligence development and undercover operations. They are rare even within the general LE organizations from which they come. They are not rank and file.

Yes, IMHO ongoing self defence training by LE personel SHOULD be a priority, BUT IT IS NOT. This lack of priority exhibited by most LE people is supported by all current, recent and previous studies available at the Center for Criminology U of T, and the Toronto Police Services Archives.

[nj_howard]

...If you are faced with a suspect with a knife do you: (a) attempt to disarm the suspect by physical force or (b) draw your firearm.
The nightly news gives that answer. We have had a number of people shot by police here the last five years in just such situations. This is the training they receive!
Just as context, I am not in law enforcement.

Regarding the above quote, are you suggesting that an on-duty policeman should attempt to disarm a knife-wielding suspect using empty-hand martial arts techniques? I think that any responsible MA instructor who teaches knife defenses will make it abundantly clear that they have a low probability of complete success even for trained martial artists. To think otherwise is folly, regardless of the level of your training.

While I beieve that there should be some interim measure between an empty-hand response and a bullet (stun guns, mace, riot clubs, etc.), I find it neither surprising nor particularly troubling that the police sometimes shoot people who are coming at them with knives.

[Dr.Syn]

LESS THAN 15% of LE personel actively train in any type of martial art or self defence on a regular basis outside of the workplace![/QUOTE[

Don't I know it..

[QUOTE=Shadow Warrior]admit that very few officers EVER enhance this training on their own dime

Sad but true..


In contrast to this they spend most of their time on classroom work related to the criminal code, firearm training, note taking ect

Another sad point


I am glad your training has helped you in some situations. By making self defence training a priority, you are expanding your skills beyond the average by far! You are not the rule, but the exception

Thank you..I still invest a fair amount of time at the range and keeping up with the everchanging laws..



f you are faced with a suspect with a knife do you: (a) attempt to disarm the suspect by physical force or (b) draw your firearm.

I pull and use my baton first



You are in the minority, unless the US LE are a completely different animal than here. Most young LE people I have met would rather lift weights or engage in other hobby activities than train 6-8 hours a week in self defence

You are 100% correct..Whenever they blow off a chance to train..I usually respond that unless they are attacked by a dart board, bowing pins or a case of beer they are gonna get hurt big time

Yes, I train a few motivated elite enforcement personel involved in intelligence development and undercover operations. They are rare even within the general LE organizations from which they come. They are not rank and file.

Yes, IMHO ongoing self defence training by LE personel SHOULD be a priority, BUT IT IS NOT. This lack of priority exhibited by most LE people is supported by all current, recent and previous studies available at the Center for Criminology U of T, and the Toronto Police Services Archives.

Those coppers are lucky, I wish I could join youi.As one of the trainers down here is fond of saying "Our fists and batons never run out of ammo"..Someday the powers that be will place more emphasis on the physical training..I'll probably be training at that big Dojo in heaven before it come to pass..Train Hard and Stay Safe Friend

[shadow warrior]

NJ_howard:

I am saying off duty LE should try to disarm knife waving idiots..not if they have another choice! If they are attacked and must defend themselves as any general person should, their is no other choice, but run!

I am posting within the context of LE as they discharge their duties while on duty.

If you are confronted by a person with a knife who intends to use it when you are unarmed, most people will probably be cut unless your sprint speed is good. We all know this to be true!

[MasterBob]

Shadow Warrior;

As a 20 year LEO, I trained in Hapkido years before I went into law enforcement. The one thing that Police Administrators hate to hear is the words "Martial Arts". But they do like to hear about defensive tactics, officer safety, etc. I continue to serve as the defensive tactics instructor for my department and our Chief is behind the training 100%. In fact we are one of the few law enforcement agencies in the State of California that allow our officers to carry a tactical folding knife and use it for other things than just cutting seat belts! The tactical knife and it's use is included in our Use of Force Policy. Most officers are carrying the Strider folder, or Buck/Tarani folder. These two knives are popular since both Steve Tarani and Duane Dwyer (co-owner of Strider Knives) are both reserve officers with our department. While the CA State Director for ICHF, I was responsible for getting the State of CA Peace Officers & Standards Training (POST) to recognize the course developed by ICHF/IPDTI. The only problem is that even though you have been through the course, you don't find a lot of open doors when you approach police administrators. All I can suggest is that you show the officer's how they can include Hapkido as part of their defensive tactics tool bag and you will be doing them a great service.

Bob Ingersoll
Director of Training / Defensive Arts Academy
Founder / Combative Arts Association

[Hapkid0ist]

Masterbob,

I think the problem with the older Admins, is the fact that they come from a different erra. Kinda like the Old dog saying.
But still, in todays world even though it shouldn't be this way, a lot of officers do have the wrong attitude. They think that gun is the end all. It seems as though they ignore the statistics of LEO's that get injured or die every year by a knife of other weapon (other than a hand gun) assailant.
I myself am an ex police officer and fugitive recovery. I was fortunat enough that when I went fugitive recovery that I spent most of my time in the same city I was LEO in, so people new me. As fugitive recovery criminals look at you different. They know that a cop can only do so much legally, but an FRA has a lot of leway. They in my experience were much more aggressive with us right off the bat. A lot of the time we had the local police with us. This gave them the arrest credit and kept us on good terms with them. They saw first hand how we used DT to accomplish the job. It had a small impact but one never the less.
As for teaching LEO, this has never been a problem. As a matter of fact we were a big Shorin Ryu area and use to end up with most of their LEO students. I think the teaching and application of techniques are no problem. They are very applicable and practical. The only problem may be as someone else did state that it is the LEO's need to be more of the aggressor at times. This is something we usually do not teach till the higher gup ranks. But it is easly resolved by changing up the teaching of your LEO's up,teaching the traditional way and as well showing them how to be more aggressive. Show them walk by techniques sooner and show them what you would would at their current level later . Basically change up your teaching plan just a tad for them. If anyone else comments on it then just let them know that these guys are cops and they have a greater chance of having to use their skills everyday.

[evilkingston]

Well I don't know about teaching, but I also have a police officer in my class too. He's a state trooper and he loves Hapkido.

same here
there are 3 police officers in our club (all different raks and expertise) and they love hkd aswell... the technique they found most likely to be used on the job = from hankido, sipchagi-bup (also know as the third technique)... :D