Indonesian Astrology and Silat

[Narrue]

Think of how the magi, skilled astrologers used astrology to locate the baby Jesus.

In ancient times most cultures believed in the importance astrology played in everyday life.

Even western culture was heavily influenced by astrology. An example which comes to mind is how western doctors treated patients using a combination of astrology and herbal preparations. Even the month, week, day and time herbs were picked was taken into account.

In china martial arts were also influenced by astrology and many Qi gong and particularly Taoist practices try to follow and benefit from astrological or lunar influences in their training.

Today these practices are dying out as modern martial artists no longer feel such things are in any way important.

Indonesia would have been heavily influenced by both Indian and China, both of which put a heavy emphasis on the importance of astrology.

What of Silat though, did astrological knowledge have any influence? If so what were they and are such things important in modern times?

[tellner]

It's one of those things that was important, but frankly isn't any more. A lot of people used to believe in astrology, but the advance of the physical sciences and the debunking of a lot of old superstitions and magic has left it by the wayside along with palmistry and reading sheep livers. Don't worry about it except for historical interest, says I.

[nechesh]

I dunno Tellner, MY sheep livers are still pretty accurate as far as i know... ;) :D

[tim_stl]

i was speaking to a sundanese man once and he mentioned a sort of 'zodiac' they have based on the day of the week on which you were born. one of the symbols was a flower, another was a tree. unfortunately, i can no longer get in contact with this man- if this sounds familiar to anyone, could you fill me in?



tim

[Narrue]

Is Indonesian astrology based on the Chinese, Indian Astrological system or is it completely different?

[tellner]

I dunno Tellner, MY sheep livers are still pretty accurate as far as i know...

It's extremely accurate in one way. It predicts a very bad day for the sheep.

[serakmurid]

Serak has a training method based on the seasons, but I don't know if we have any astrology, probably not.

[Crucible]

Serak has a training method based on the seasons, but I don't know if we have any astrology, probably not.
Hello serakmurid,

Perhaps it varies in each serak tradition, but as I was told by a brother pesilat who teaches from the VDT line, the pontjar used in serak is actually an ancient calendar. It corresponds to the seasons, numerology and the anatomy of the human body(similar to Da Vinci's drawing of the man in the circle).

I am not a serak practitioner so perhaps a serak pesilat could come forward and elighten us further?

[Crucible]

I am not an Indonesian pesilat, but in Pak O'ong Maryono's most excellent book he has a few brief and telling snippets on the topic of astrology. The book is not in front of me, so I will look it up later. I invite every one to purchase his book as it is probably the best written in the english language on the topic of silat.

[Narrue]

the pontjar used in serak is actually an ancient calendar. It corresponds to the seasons, numerology and the anatomy of the human body(similar to Da Vinci's drawing of the man in the circle).

I am not a serak practitioner so perhaps a serak pesilat could come forward and elighten us further?

Sounds a bit like the old western astronomical medical chart. It was common in such times to cure a medical condition using a combination of astrology, elements, planetary influences, lunar influences, seasonal influences and herbs. I have seen similar ancient charts for all the above. Charts like this were common in the west in ancient times, also India, Tibet, China…. Not sure about Indonesia but I would think so.

[serakmurid]

Crucible, I could tell you more about the dalam of the Pantjar, but alas, my teacher wishes to keep it dalam for those who are not in our aliran. But you ARE right, sir. The numerology of the art is most...intriguing. In our last seminar with Pak Victor de Thouars in late October of this year, he expounded at length about this. Also on many other occasions Pak Vic has slowly revealed the "deep structure" of the art. But as Ustad Guru Dan Inosanto puts it, "There are no guessing games (about Serak)".

[tellner]

I don't know about training methods based on the seasons except that we do more groundwork and heavy conditioning during the Summer. In the Winter it's too damned cold in the Guru's welding shop; people get hurt.

As far as the "inner" meanings of the pancar or other visual training aids, well, it depends. They may have been there from the beginning or "discovered" later. It makes little difference. What's important is to learn what the teaching methods have to teach you and not get too wrapped up in them as ends in themselves. Some of the more elaborate over-intellectualization detracts from training rather than adding to it, at least until the student has developed a certain amount of technical skill and ability to apply what he or she has learned. I've seen students in some aliran get so obsessed with "this is the water side of langka empat, and that's the air side, and this stepping represents the song of Bar Ney the Mauve Monitor Lizard" that they lose perspective and their training suffers. This is a Bad Thing(tm).

[Gajah Silat]

I don't know about training methods based on the seasons except that we do more groundwork and heavy conditioning during the Summer. In the Winter it's too damned cold in the Guru's welding shop; people get hurt.


You get a roof? :D For me it's the back yard :cry:

I don't get the seasons theory though in most of Indonesia it's hot or not quite so hot but wet :eek:

[tellner]

Hello serakmurid,

Perhaps it varies in each serak tradition, but as I was told by a brother pesilat who teaches from the VDT line, the pontjar used in serak is actually an ancient calendar. It corresponds to the seasons, numerology and the anatomy of the human body(similar to Da Vinci's drawing of the man in the circle).

I am not a serak practitioner so perhaps a serak pesilat could come forward and elighten us further?

The pancar is a training aid designed to give the student guidelines for footwork and an appreciation of important angles. It's easy to overuse it and get into the whole "finger pointing at the moon" craziness. The fact that it's based on the length of the practitioner's footstep kind of guarantees that it will have something to do with the anatomy of the human body :rolleyes: Seasons? Astrology? Numerology? Try the Law of Large Numbers. You can pull any hidden meaning you want out of something as elaborate as the pancar. They have more to do with the inside of your own head than anything inherent in the geometry of the figure.

It's kind of like Thibault's famous footwork diagram from the Spanish school of fencing. You can make all sorts of intellectual constructions about the elements, the humors, Sacred Geometry, magic and astrology. When it comes down to it the good practitioners get an appreciation for distance, angling, footwork and timing. The really elaborate stuff - "Step from A to 4, then slide along the lesser interior collateral while your opponent moves along the Path of Death" - ick, no. It's just organized despair and over-intellectualization.

[Kiai Carita]

...Indonesia would have been heavily influenced by both Indian and China, both of which put a heavy emphasis on the importance of astrology.What of Silat though, did astrological knowledge have any influence? If so what were they and are such things important in modern times?

Peace to all,

Narrue, astrology in silat is considered to be part of timing training. It is most important at a certain level for certain reasons. If you look up www.cimande.com you wil find a page on Jumat Kliwon days, which show that these guys think that Kliwon Friday is important.

Many calendars have been and are used in Jawa, the Saka (solar) calendar, the Christian calendar, and also the Hijriah (lunar) calendar. Check out www.babadbali.com for a more thorough research. Contact the tradition activists who run it for expert information.

Other ethnic groups also developed astrology and calendars.

Warm salams to all,

KC

[serakmurid]

Ha, Ha Ha, Mas Todd Ellner, you have some funny things to say on this thread! :D
But seriously you really never heard of the "Four Seasons"? That is from the Baduy. It has nothing to do with the weather or where you train. Guru Plinck didn't teach you that one? I've only done it twice myself.
Ah, do be more polite when you talk about the dalam and the philosophy of Serak, sir. I learned much rahasiah from some extremely skilled men, no their training was not lacking for all the depth of knowledge of the deep structure of the art they have.
We should model Hormat in front of our Indonesian brothers, yes?
Hormat to you. :Angel:

[tellner]

The basics are difficult enough without adding magic and piling on layers of abstraction. Once I can make the stuff I have really work and have mastered things like intention, focus, technical principles, morality, and being able to fight efficiently there will be time to worry about the metaphysics and superstition. That's not likely to happen any time soon. I've met almost nobody who has gotten that far including practitioners with decades of experience and more certificates than the New York Stock Exchange.

As far as the dalam goes, well, it depends very much on what you mean by "the dalam". If you mean the ability of good training to affect personal development including spiritual and religious, of course. If you mean that there are non-obvious ways of looking at things that can make you a better fighter or pesilat I have no argument. If you believe adding mysterious woo-woo to training in order to impress the marks or make them feel like they're privy to the Secrets of the Universe, then no. My teacher's teacher said "The truth is hard enough. Don't give them [word forbidden by terms of service]."

A friend of mine and sometimes-participant in this forum spent way too much time and money memorizing the associations of the four elements to the sides of langka sliwa and "making hormat to the pancar". His training really took off when he began to work with teachers (in Indonesia as it happens) who were less interested in pseudo-mysticism and more interested in turning his students into good Silat players.

[serakmurid]

Actually I have never seen or heard Pak Victor say or claim anything we did was magic, superstition, woo-woo or whatever (I am not being defensive here, just stating my experience). I know enough from the other arts I've studied and teach, Jun Fan/JKD, Lacoste-Inosanto Kali, Wing Chun to recognize blather for what it is. Pak Victor is also not one for abstractions either. Whatever theory or philosophy he has taught us about Serak has been very practical in nature, ie it helps us understand the art better. Particulartly because he teaches the Mas Djut, Mas Roen and Pak Sera phases and they each have a different approach to Serak. If anything, it might be in teaching the history or the cultural roots of the Badui that the more symbolic stuff gets taught. That just helps the Serak practitioner understand, why things are the way they are, like why are there 18 jurus? What is the relationship between the first 3 langkah Pantjars and why is the 4th different from the first 3?, etc.
Huh, I haven't been taught that about Langka Sliwa yet, only the footwork and that it taught structures to avoid being in.

[Silatyogi]

Its deffinetly ok to use archetypes and attitudes to improve your fighting and Silat. But you have to also keep a level head about it and not get caught up in the Hoopla and WOOO WOOO of mysticism.


In esoteric studies the following symbols relate to the various elements, and also various types of movents. The concept came from the Hindu's Esoteric concepts.

This may help for example to get the mental attitude needed to get the job done if you are on a Langkah. Although my silat teachers never told me about this stuff directly, my yoga teachers did and it does indeed seem to relate with the energy and or intent used with the various Langkahs. I know Kalari has some of these concepts I am sure at somepoint it was taught in Silat aswell. Maybe in Indonesia it could be still learned. What is most important about it is not the over mystified stuff but more the simple mind attitudes & Intent to get the job done.

Triangle is related to Fire
Square is related to Earth
Cross/circle is Related to Air
Zig Zag/crecent is related to Water
Formlessness is related to Void

I wrote a small article about it you can find it on the link below. You may have to scroll down.

http://doblesinstitute.com/wst_page7.php

It is well known that many styles of Silat also use archetypes of animals to improve their way of moving and also "getting into the Spirit of things".

the Tantrics & Buddhist Warriors of Tibet would use certain ritual dances and invoke certain deities to become in resonance with those particular archetypes in order to accuire a type of "Inner Power" before going to war.

Its also common in Native american warrior cultures.

But no matter what or how esoteric it may or may not be you still have to just be real and simple and work your art from the physical standpoint and train your Butt off!


Peace

Santiago

[tellner]

Precisely. I'm not at the level where most of this will do anything except get in the way. So I work on the basics. When they are really and truly dialed in, then there will be time to do other stuff. Until then, as they say,if your poop's weak, your poop's weak.

Using animals to model intention can be a very useful training method. The problem I usually see is that people get into the whole "finger pointing at the moon" syndrome. They spend a lot of time trying to move the same way a tiger or a praying mantis does or convincing themselves that they have been possessed by animal spirits. They lose sight of what the training method is supposed to accomplish.

So much of it is cultural context. Things that make perfect sense to someone who grew up in the time and place will require lots of translation to a foreigner and may still miss the mark causing more confusion. References to the Mahabarta or the Ramayana will be intensely familiar to most South and Southeast Asians. Not to Europeans. Mnemonics won't work quite the same way. Neither will intuitive associations. Add a hunger for the exotic and you have a recipe for confusion unless the teacher is very sensitive to the nuances and the student's headspace.

[Narrue]

I don’t know if its as esoteric or wooo wooo as some may think. If you look at the natural world around you, can you see if planetary/seasonal influences have effect there? Animals hibernate, mate, lay eggs, spawn, plants grow and wither back in to the soil. It’s clear that nature follows such cycles. Taking this into account we must now ask ourselves two questions.


•Do these natural influences affect man in any way, internally or externally and if so what are those influences.

If your answer to this question is no there is no effect on man then for you the question is solved and there is no point considering the second question. If however your answer is yes then perhaps you should consider the second question.

•If there are effects on man how can these be utilised or taken advantage of in training?


When the question is put like this does it still sound like wooo wooo or pointing at the moon or does it sound simply like nature and man?

As I said before there are many Chinese arts which take such influences into account. I was just curious to see if it’s the same with Silat.

[tellner]

Your statement spans the divide from "indisputable" to "out beyond the Oort cloud". Without a little more precision it's hard to say exactly what you're asking.

Does the natural world affect people? Of course.

Does this mean that astrology and all sorts of magical thinking should be accepted at face value simply because people believed in them at some time in the past? No.

You see how there's a huge gap between the two. To accept or reject one has to look a little more carefully.

Theories like the Four Humors, Four Elements and much of the physiological basis of Traditional Chinese Medicine are simply wrong. We know better now. Astrology is a quaint model of the universe. It's got no relation to external physical reality. Contagious and sympathetic magic likewise.

[RAMANA1]

i would have to agree with todds writings,but would like to hear about the tenaga delam of the pancar(of alexander the great) of the vdt academy..do you even realize how foolish this sounds???????jerry jacobs of cimande.net has a good tenaga dalam dvd-good breath work and sound advice on energy work... :D

[Tuankaki]

It seems to me that breaking down practice into seasons would help to keep the pesilat tuned up in a densly populated system, where you just cannot practice "everything" "all the time".

[Narrue]

Well it is said that man is a microcosm i.e. all the components of the macrocosm (universe) exist in him. If that is true then wouldn’t changes in the macrocosm cause corresponding changes in the microcosm (man)?

[Gajah Silat]

I still don't get it :confused:

Is this a Dutch/Indo perspective, because for the 2nd time there are not four seasons in Indonesia.

They have two. Wet season and Dry season.

[Narrue]

Ok I will try to explain it another way. I’m sure you’ve seen how at a certain time of year flying ants come up out of the ground in masses only for 2 or 3 days a year. You don’t see them all year and suddenly there everywhere for a few days.
Those of you that live near the sea may notice that at a certain night of the year turtles come out of the sea and lay their eggs in the sand and likewise on a certain night the young turtles make their way back to the sea.
Think of a bear hibernating, a frog spawning, a salmon jumping, it’s all triggered by external influences.
How do those creatures know when it is the correct time, do they sit watching the moon or do they FEEL something?
Within humans similar things happen but we no longer FEEL those things because we have drifted away from Nature. Someone who has this knowledge might be able to utilise it in a useful way in their training. I’m not talking about mysticism or anything like that, just nature and natural things.

[Gajah Silat]

Yeah, I get you :rolleyes:

Seasons, gravitational pull of the moon, melatonin levels affected by sunlight, modern stress triggering fight/flight response without the fight or flight....et cetera ad infinitum.

Yes, our modern environment is artificial. Yes, in the not too distant past our very survival depended on being 'in tune' with the seasons.

Yep, we're all dying of adrenaline poisoning :eek:

Just the four seasons bit that I was on about.

[tellner]

Rain, warmer rain, less rain, no rain :p

[Gajah Silat]

Rain, warmer rain, less rain, no rain :p

They are the four British seasons :D

[Narrue]

The seasons were derived by observing plant life. Spring, a time when vegetation springs up out of the soil. Summer, a time of fruit, harvest. Autumn, a time when vegetation finishes its growth spurt and some die. Winter, a time of dormancy.

I would be very surprised if plant life in Indonesia does not follow this pattern. If it does then Indonesia has 4 seasons even if the change is not as dramatic as in colder countries.

[Narrue]

I’m not sure we are dying of adrenaline poisoning. The human body simply adapts so that it takes a higher stress level to trigger the adrenaline flow then would be naturally the case.
Fact is that humans are now living longer then ever before, however I am sure we could all live longer :)

[tellner]

I'd be willing to bet good money that it's a teaching method which Pak Victor came up with, one of his own contributions to the Art. Guru Plinck's reaction was "Pendekar Paul never said anything about that." A couple people who had studied other lineages of Serak in Indonesia said "Huh?" At least one of Guru Victor's former senior students (one of the ones who was put in the Memory Hole) said it was something he suddenly started teaching one day.

So I'd guess it's an expression of his personal style, lacking any evidence to the contrary.

[Steve Perry]

Yep, sort of like the three lines that have showed up recently -- Mas Djut, Mas Rhoen, and Pak Sera. Until a couple years ago, nobody in Sera(k) had ever heard of this. Then one day, Pak Vic began teaching it. I won't say that he came up with that interpretation, but in an interview with Steve Gartin, for the defunct magazine(s) Fighting Knives/Streetfighter, Gartin -- then one of Pak Vic's seniors, but now booted out and affiliated with Uncle, aka Grandpa Willem de Thouars -- Pak Vic had this to say about it:

"When people speak of Silat Serak, there is only one line to Pak Serak, not two or three."

Wonder where the other two came from ... ?

[Narrue]

Well I don’t know about what teachings involving seasons etc they use in Sera(k) and even if those teachings are recent additions to Sera(k). Perhaps pak Victor observed these teachings from other silat schools and decided to borrow/incorporate it into Sera(k), in which case it may be new to sera(k) but not new to silat.

There are four cycles that affect the body: The rotation of the earth (day & night), the cycle of the moon (lunar phase), the yearly orbit of the earth round the sun (12 houses) and the seven year cycle.
Just as different species of plants flower at different times in the year, the bud bursting open and producing nectar there are points in the human body which open and close in a similar rhythmical sequence which corresponds to the mentioned cycles. As these points open they release nectar into the blood stream. This effects the functioning of the body in a number of ways, including animal instinct (brain function). It is this effect on the brain which causes turtles to KNOW the time is right for laying their eggs.
A woman’s menstrual cycle is likewise generated and you may be interested to know that men also have a cycle though not as obvious as with a woman :D
As stated these points open and close under external natural influences however those who have an understanding of the science of mudra can artificially open or close a point at will and this can be utilised in a number of ways including development of particular facultys and defensive methods.

[realitychecker]

I think that this is where the "spaceship blue prints" come from. These people landed in Vic's village when he was 1 1/2 yrs old, and implanted the pantjar into his memory. This will be great "dalem", or "rahsia" research for Serakmurid Andrew and his E.M. pals to prepare for new sheep.

http://cosmicfighting.741.com/

Maybe by then Buddy will take a chill pill!!

[Narrue]

Celestial Grandmaster!!! wow I am honoured!
When I heard the title something deep inside told me he must be an American :rolleyes:

[Narrue]

I just remembered, isn’t there a village in Indonesia where they build their houses in an arc shape and say they came to earth on a spaceship that crashed. Maybe they have returned to finish what they started :D

[realitychecker]

Grandmaster George :Alien: will melt "Maha :eek: Guru" Victor's .45 gun barrel with his "phototonic energy". Don't believe it? Got to that site and look it up. Soon, the VDT and the GCD academies will be battling over this lineage. Who will (R) it first????

ps-lots of "dalem" :Alien:!!!!

[Buddy]

"Maybe by then Buddy will take a chill pill!!"

So in private you will greet me and send regards from your teacher, but in public you suggest I take a "chill pill?" I suggest that Pak Vic is your elder and whatever issues you may have with his "revisions" and the DeThouars family's way of treating others, there is no need for this sort of crap.

[Orang Jawa]

"Maybe by then Buddy will take a chill pill!!"

So in private you will greet me and send regards from your teacher, but in public you suggest I take a "chill pill?" I suggest that Pak Vic is your elder and whatever issues you may have with his "revisions" and the DeThouars family's way of treating others, there is no need for this sort of crap.

Brother Buddy,
I'm agree with you wholeheartly!
But this is a fact of life, the circle of countless blames. Its started by one and naturally, his loyal friends or someone who been the victim of "the person" in the discussion shared their drama as he shared their upsets about their experiense with "the person" It becomes a Moan and Groan Society. They never seemed to tire each other's stories. No wonder, they fed each other the martydom they were obviously enjoying, and they always got to be right! They payoff was that we didn't have to create out our righteous, we could simply blame other's for their wrong.
And I could be wrong,
Tristan

[Gajah Silat]

It would be much more dignified to rise above it all :o

C'mon we all got the point ages ago :bang:

[RAMANA1]

how about the pancar?you know ,the one from alexander the great...any proof?maybe its an alien diagram...evreyone can check out an update on pendekar sanders sight,where he is moving with the late pak herman,and a bakti negara player..check it out.-as far as buddy goes,please dont dig the hole any deeper..reality checker has gone through alot...

[realitychecker]

Buddy,

I have been directed by my teacher to apologize. I thought that you were someone else until it was explained to me. Even so, I did not have "issues" with any other deThouars but Victor. While he is most certinly my "elder", I owe him no respect. I AM sorry that I vented on a public forum. I will erase all my posts when I givin back the privelage to do so. I realize that I went a bit overboard, and I am sorry to everyone who was upset.
Realitychecker

[Tuankaki]

Realitychecker,

Good call on your part, and your teacher's. A lot of people, in a lot of places, feel maligned and burned, manipulated and abused. At SOME point some pivotal folks will have passed, and it will be the next generation's opportunity to do a little better. We're getting close to those times, and we all have a choice - cling to the old battles, or try and free ourselves from that so we can learn from one another and enjoy the sharing of these arts.

[Orang Jawa]

[QUOTE=RAMANA1]how about the pancar?you know QUOTE]

How about it? Would you care to elaborate?
Tristan

[Buddy]

Ramana,
When you speak of holes, watch your step. Pak Tristan has just given a very big shovel. Remember, you don't know me, who I am, or what I know. Better to just drop this nonsense and talk about silat.
BTW I don't do silat anymore but was exposed to some top notched folks: Guru Steve Plinck, Guru Bob Venetta, Guru Andre and his brother, Guru Mike, and yes, Pak Victor. Guru Dan was kind enough to compliment me on my baguazhang, however.

[RAMANA1]

tristan -is there pancar work in your art?could you please explain it to me...as a boxer ,we do lots of footwork and we never look down at our feet to see what lines we are on,so iam asking you nicely to explain..and buddy,the whole iam referring to is the threatning private email you sent to a member on this forum..reality checker already apologized..and the list of people to whom you name drop stopped impressing many of us a long time ago,there are many great artists from all styles,and not all of them are in magazines or make videoes either..you and tristian want to rise above it all,heres your chance..

[RAMANA1]

what type of bagua and who was your teacher?what do you think of the gao system?yin fu style of he jinbao?-now weve got a common thread---

[Buddy]

Ramana,
My first inclination is to say who are you, why should I tell you anything? Steve Perry and I use our real names and everyone knows who Guru Mike and Pak Tristan are from times past.
"the whole iam referring to is the threatning private email you sent to a member on this forum..reality checker already apologized."

I assume you mean hole. You might want to recheck your facts with the person you named. He sent ME an email saying his teacher sends his regards. That's all. So don't try any of this nonsense with me, son. He apologized because his teacher told him to, and rightly so. His teacher understands hormat.

"...and the list of people to whom you name drop stopped impressing many of us a long time ago."

Other than Pak Victor and Guru Mike, whom it seems didn't want to be your smear team, which of that list stopped impressing you? Just so I know your skill level.

"...you and tristian want to rise above it all,heres your chance."

I'm not going to speak for Pak Tristan. I'm already above it all. I have no ax to grind, I was a big boy with an extensive martial art background when I met Pak Victor. In that regard I am not worse off for that experience.

"what type of bagua and who was your teacher?what do you think of the gao system?"

In Chinese the phrase for hormat is "wude." It means martial virtue. You can either research this question on your own or you can ask me nicely.

[RAMANA1]

you know buddy,i tried to be nice to you in a few different ways..i dont care about any of your b.s politics in silat,it is not my major art of study.judo and sombo are..i got involved in silat due to knowing some of the same people that you mentioned..all ive found is mysticism ,and he said ,she said games.iam not your son or your boy,and you assume a great many things at this time.you know what they say about assumptions.....good luck in your endeavors...

[Buddy]

You know ramana I can't find a single place where you tried to be nice. I don't do silat so they're not my politics. I commend you on your pursuit of your chosen arts, it's an admirable thing. I assume nothing about you. I only respond to what I read.
So, as to adhere to the wude and hormat I mentioned, I will assume I misjudged your intentions. I study Gao style baguazhang from the Yizong system. My teacher is Luo Dexiu. So now, how do we have something in common?

[Gajah Silat]

Ramana1 aside from this all ive found is mysticism ,and he said ,she said games, are you saying you have not actualy studied any Silat?

And can I please remind everyone that there are styles of Silat other than Serak-Sera-Seraktm and Cimande :rolleyes: In fact hundreds if not thousands of them :eek:

[Gajah Silat]

A friend of mine once told a Javanese Orang Tua a joke.

How many Javanese does it take to change a lightbulb?

Three.

One to make the coffee.

One to fill in the paperwork from the Kantor.

And one to fetch a Chinese to do it!

The old man clearly amused, chuckled and replied thus.

"You see, for us things have to be done in the correct manner. We would rather sit in the dark than persue a matter in an inapropriate fashion"

He continued

"Either way we 'win'. Either the lightbulb gets changed, or we sit in the dark no worse off. If the latter occurs we have the satisfaction that although the bulb did not get changed, we at least did not pursue an inapropriate sequence of events."

[Jebat]

Indonesia has no seasons, there is only a raining period...

South east asia has a lot of magic and spirit believe.
It mixed with Islam at one point. Then it also mixed
with Chinese spirit believe. Malays call it Datuk Keramat.
There where Malays and Chinese mix more it is called
Datuk Gong.
There is not much astrology at all apart from the
astrology used by the local Chinese people who live there
and I Ching the Chinese use. The Malays don't use it with
the odd exception maybe. So Silat and astrology is not
a natural combination at all. Maybe some individuals
who combined it but it is not a norm.

In Indonesia magic is still everywhere. In Malaysia it is
disappearing on the mainland but still present on all the Islands.

By the way, the people finding Jesus according to the bible where
the Persians who would always travel west when there was a
phenomena in the sky. They where the true and first serious
astrologers in the world. We have a lot to thank them for when it
comes to documenting astronomical events.

Also, the 'doctors' you speak of in Europe in the days of old where
algemists and healers, combining spiritual believe and primitive algemy.
They where not doctors.

[Narrue]

Also, the 'doctors' you speak of in Europe in the days of old where
algemists and healers, combining spiritual believe and primitive algemy.
They where not doctors.


I think the people in those times would have considered them as doctors. We look back on them now and think they are not doctors because their methods are so different from modern medicine. In 1000 years time (assuming humans actually make it that far) I wonder what they will think of our medicine, primitive?

The funny thing about the Alchemists is that modern science has confirmed that their fundamental beliefs are correct.

1. The possibility of transmuting a base metal e.g. lead into a noble metal e.g. gold, we know its possible and modern scientists have even done it but the method they employed meant that the process costs vastly more then the product produced.

2. Man has always wanted to live longer, look younger and live free from disease. We think this is a modern obsession but its not, the alchemists back then were looking for the same thing.
To an alchemist who were largely concerned with the study of metals the ageing process was thought to be caused by something they called "the crude air".
Alchemists knew from observation that metals rust because they are attacked by the air. They reasoned that the rusting process of a metal was caused by the same thing as the ageing process in humans, we age because we rust, that was their concept. The alchemists noticed that gold resisted rusting so naturally they thought it was the key to long life. They wanted to make potable gold (aurum potabile) a type of gold (not common Au) . When consumed it would stop the rusting (ageing) process because it itself could not rust (Incorruptible).

Today's science tells us that if we consume antioxidants we can slow down the ageing process. Antioxidants stop oxidation of the cells which is also what causes a metal to rust so as you can see the alchemists were not wrong after all.