Kata Guruma

[cal_JJJ]

In an earlier thread (throws) there was some discussion about Kata Guruma which I found interesting & would like to continue.

In the system that I study, we don't practice a Kata Guruma. We do have techniques very close though. They are Kinu Katsugi & Kin Katsugi. They are the same as Kata Guruma ( one standing & one kneeling), but don't employ a complete "fireman's carry" type grip.

Instead the palm of the trailling hand is placed on Uke's shin & Uke is swept over w/ your arm.

What variations/entrances do you practice/like etc.?

[Jim]

What you're describing we call 'blessed Earth' if it's in a kneeling position. We never used to practise Kata Guruma at all, but I 'lobbied' to bring it back as well as Mochiage Otoshi after all the success the Gracies had with it in the '90's.

[cal_JJJ]

Of the two that we do, I prefer the Kinu Katsugi (standing).

We enter w/ a very low Horse stance & as you roll/sweep Uke over you side step through Uke's original positon. If you start with a good off balancing, it is very hard for Uke to regain in time to counter.

[Freeform]

Well get some photo's of them on the gallery guys!

Or better yet, make a step by step guide and get cooler to put them on the magazine!

As for kata guruma its one of my most pants techniques. If anybodies got any advice on it I hear it gladly.

C:)l

[cal_JJJ]

Freeform: You mentioned "Sutemi Hiza Guruma" in an earlier thread. What is the form & how does it diff. from Kata Guruma.

Jim: Mochiage Otoshi?

[Jim]

Sutemi Hiza Guruma would be COMPLETELY different from Kata Guruma. More like Hiza Guruma but falling backwards and pulling Uke over.

Mochiage Otoshi is the 5th Hand Throw in our system - see the gallery at www.agjs.com. Basically you grab behind both kneecaps and shoulder butt Uke into the 'belly' for a take down. I don't really like it much as it sets you up badly for a Sanjuku Jime straight away, but the BJJ guys like it because they train for ground fighting as a preference.

[cal_JJJ]

Re: Mochiage Otoshi

Thanks for the pic. ref. We do that throw as well (diff. name....names, names,names!!!!!!!), and use it to set-up Kaza Garuma ( Boston Crab).

My fav. entrance for it is to inside block a straight punch while heel-palm striking the chin & really driving it back unbalacing Uke to the rear. Then droping for both knees. ( of course, you need to get off line & pivot 90deg. to Uke w/ block-strike)

[cal_JJJ]

Jim:

I notice from your school "Gallery" that you grab the upper sleeve with the hand coming across on your Seoi style shoulder throws. Is that how you teach it?

Freeform: The school where I study does three diff. styles of your Kata Garuma. One kneeling, one in a low Horse stance, and the last in a full stand w/ three rotations before hucking Uke off.

[Jim]

No, we slide the (right) hand down from the neck and lock it in in the middle chest area. I'll have to look at that picture again now...

[cal_JJJ]

Jim:

That last was not worded well. What I was refering to was the right hand in the photos of your shoulder throws #1,2,&4. Just as a point of discussion as I was there looking at Kata Garuma.

[Jim]

Ummm... 1st (Kata Seioe) shoulder grabs with both hands on Uke's right bicep (like a Kesa Gatame hold) and lift it onto the shoulder. 2nd (Seioe Nage) is the one I described and the 4th (Seioe Otoshi) has the same hand hold as Kata Seioe.

Is that what you were asking?

[cal_JJJ]

Yep.

I was also taught to grab the upper sleeve at the biceps for Seoie Nage, Ippon Seoie Nage, Seoie Otoshi, etc. But the Kilohana group don't grab at all. They hook w/ the hollow of the elbow as a faster combat form, and we have been doing the same during randori.

Lately though, I have been practicing these throws by grabing the top of the sleeve at the shoulder. I find that it wraps me in tighter, gets my shoulder a little ahead of my hips sooner taking some strain off my back (important as I get older!#@), & puts the throw on quicker.

I have kind-of taken this thread off topic, hope ya'll don't mind.

[Jim]

Nah, it's your thread... ;)

With the crook of your elbow? That'd be more like Uchi Maki Komi?

[cal_JJJ]

Jim - Yikes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Uhci Maki Komi????????

Threw me a curve there. We have Makikomi, Hane Makikomi & Harai Makikomi, But no Uchi

Had to go to my Kilohana work-out book - Judo section. At the end of the 57 standard Judo throws are " Eight Excluded techniques of 1920". And the eigth one on that list is Uchi Maki Komi ( inside winding throw). The discription is from a counter to Uchi Mata but isn't clear on catching under the arm w/ crook of elbow.

[Jim]

Dunno about using it to counter Uchi Mata, but that's it. Yep, it's one of the 'excluded' ones. A bloody good throw, too.

[SoKKlab]

Why is it (Uchi Maki Komi) 'Excluded'? For technical reasons or for reasons of danger etc? Or Other?

[Jim]

I'm not sure (that's why we brought it back again), you care to answer this one Dave?

[Freeform]

Bah, I poopoo on the exclussion of throws!

Just means that they're damn effective!

Col

[Jim]

Yeah, I've often wondered about excluding techniques. I can understand if they're too 'nasty' - but even that should just mean that they're excluded from inexperienced Judoka to use or have used on them.

[Freeform]

Just means that they're excluded from Randori, not practice!

Col

[Jim]

Not my Randori... ;)

[cal_JJJ]

As for the "why", I can't help much as I am not a sport-Judo guy.
But apparently the Kilohana group would agree with you on how you feel about the subject.

Kilohana Workbook: "Many are not aware that Judo was initially known as Kano Jujitsu ......the way they practice changed..... I have included a study of the sixty-five throws of Kodokan Judo .............. a few of the sixty-five throws of Judo are not legal for Sport Judo.......... this need not apply to Jujitsu as w/ sport Judo you are guaranteed a one on one match w/ rules....... neither is the case w/ Jujitsu. Jujitsu takes into account that you may be wearing gear or weapons as well as multiple attackers (there are no rules or referees)."

[TAPOUT]

yup