Also... Hapkido vs Judo

[Sirasoni]

Which do you feel is the more "deadly" style?

[mixmastersenior]

I was under the impression that Judo is a sport. That doesn't mean that it can't be used for self defense, but it is designed as a sport.

[shootodog]

I was under the impression that Judo is a sport. That doesn't mean that it can't be used for self defense, but it is designed as a sport.

there are many forms of judo. the judo that you see in the olympic games is "sport judo". there are other types of judo that exsist today like police judo, combat judo, combatives, kosen judo and the like.

judo is a martial art. the unfortunate events during world war 2 (the use of the kodokan school as a military academy and the defeat of the japanese) paved the way for judo to be practiced as a martial sport (known as the ban. it was imposed by general macarthur on all japanese martial arts). pre-ban judo looks like gracie/ brazilian jiu-jitsu. the kosen judo and the combat judo trained with striking as well.

judo today is still practiced with newaza (grappling and submissions) which make it t3h d34dly.

[Alexander]

In my HKD class throws were really only practised against unresisting opponents - as a result when it really came to it I don't think anyone would really be able to apply them. By contrast I know the Judo club regularly do randori so I'd say that their throwing technique was far better.

[Slindsay]

If the only knowledge I had of two fighters was that one did Judo and one did Hapkido then my money would definetly be on the Judo guy. Mainly because you can be pretty damn sure that the Judo guy will have practiced against a resisting opponent whereas the only style of Hapkido I know includes no resistance trainning of any sort.

[Thomas]

Mainly because you can be pretty damn sure that the Judo guy will have practiced against a resisting opponent whereas the only style of Hapkido I know includes no resistance trainning of any sort.
What Hapkido style is that?????? Must be pretty hard to practice Hapkido without resistance! :confused: Maybe you should go and check out another Hapkido school (mine is available).

[TheGnome]

As I mentioned before I was lucky enough to learn from teacher that holds high rank in both Judo and Sin Moo Hapkido, currently 5th and 8th Dan respectively. Because of that even though my ranking is in Hapkido, I have a good bit of Judo experience. I think the best lesson I learned was not to seperate the two. They work so well together that it is really a shame to try to say "this is Judo that is Hapkido". Plus there are so many common threads in the history. Judo started as a form of Jujitsu, then rules were developed to turn it into a sport long before the Second World War. The founder was very involved in the Physical Culture movement in Japan. He saw his art/sport as a way to allow people to improve themselves physicaly as well as returning some of the warrior spirit that he fealt was dying in Japan. Hence the Ju"do" vs the Ju"Jitsu". Kosen Judo means "Old School" and is called that because it is based on the old Judo rules that tended to favor newaza (ground) and tended to result in very long matches. Kosen rules are still practiced in a few Universities in Japan, and it is the root of the Brazillian JJ so popular today. In old style matches you could only win by an Ippon and there were no time limits. As a result the matches really favored people good with holds and submission techniques. The higher ups in Judo (I think Kano was still alive but might be wrong) decided it was getting to far away from the throws so they changed the rules, and put time limits on to make competitions more manageable.

From a Hapkido standpoint there are so many times when you can use ashiwaza (foot throws) off of breakaways and use Oseakomiwaza (holding) from wrist locks etc. There is definately an advantage to having all the randori (free practice) experience as a Judoka but I think you can do the same in Hapkido to an extent. Sorry to keep blabbing but this thread kind of hits home.

[JimH]

Deadly is the operative word.

If we deal soley with deadly then we are talking of the finishing moves,in Hapkido and Judo finishing moves could be the same techniques,(since both arts originate from Jujitsu roots)
the finish could be a choke or a strike to a vital target,if Deadly (dead or death) is the desired outcome.

Since we are talking of deadly then we are ,again ,outside of the sports arena.

If Judo or Hapkido are trained in a realistic fashion for the desired use then either can be deadly arts.

Which art would be more deadly? that would depend on the skill of the practioner.

While training against resistance ,an uncooperative opponent,is good,that fact does not ensure a victory.

Victory is always a crap shoot:
It depends on the heart/desire of the opponents.
It depends on skill level and the ability to perform, or act on, those skills.
It depends on if the opponents have been in , seen or experienced the scenario in some way before (as having experience or knowledge of a scenario and a response lead to a quicker action and a lower adrenaline level allowing a wider range of tools to be used)
It also depends on LUCK.

Again ANY art ,if trained for a specific need can be made to fit that need,as long as it is trained properly for that desired outcome,be it health,sport,culture,history or self defense.

To say that a Judo person ,who trains against resistance would be the victor against a Hapkido practioner is a guess,a theory,it is not an absolute.

Judo needs the opponent to close the gap,Hapkidoists have Kicks and punches before they get to the grappling range.

Both arts are skilled in Grappling,and many hapkido techniques are based on responses to Judo Grabs,so implementation of a defense or response ,and making it work,are dependent upon the skill level of the opponenets.

To make a wild assumption on who would win would be like me saying I have never seen a Judo throw made in a street situation,does that mean it cannot be done? no,it depends on the experience,and luck of making the technique work in reality.(That is dependent upon the skill of the practioner)

Everything comes down to skill,knowledge,the ability to implement and make it work and LUCK.

My 2 cents

[Slindsay]

What Hapkido style is that?????? Must be pretty hard to practice Hapkido without resistance! :confused: Maybe you should go and check out another Hapkido school (mine is available).

It was with the Duk Moo federation. The reason given was because the techniques we would be taught where too deadly to be used in sparring. :rolleyes:

This is there website.

http://www.dukmoo.com/

[wild_pitch]

To say that a Judo person ,who trains against resistance would be the victor against a Hapkido practioner is a guess,a theory,it is not an absolute.

one of my the guys at my club's brother is a judo player. he comes by fairly regularly and whenever he is around i always try to take the opportunity to roll around with him.

sometimes he wins and sometimes i win, but it is funny because often when i win it is because i am able to get him off his game by throwing punches at him while in position of control. he refers to punching like this jokingly as, "for savages" and it is just not something he has to deal with at all so it really throws him off.

i think that situation sums up the main differences between the two arts pretty well. judo players are really great at their game but hapkidoist *SHOULD* have more tools at your disposal to deal with any situation that comes up.

IMHO of course you will need to find a school that trains hapkido in a live fashion to really be able to use what you learn in an effective manner.

[Thomas]

It was with the Duk Moo federation. The reason given was because the techniques we would be taught where too deadly to be used in sparring. :rolleyes:

This is there website.

http://www.dukmoo.com/
Resistance training does not have to equal sparring. There are quite a few Hapkido schools that "don't spar" but do train the technqiues with resistance. I think a general pattern is to set up the sitaution, try out the desired technqiues at slow speed and low resiatnce and then add speed and resistance while paying attention to things that go wrong or opportunities that open up. All of this can be done without sparring.

In some cases, the scenarios taught really wouldn't work well in a "sparring context". For example, teaching someone how to take someone down and put handcuffs on is probably beter taught as a specific set of skills with increasing speed and resiatnce instead of doing it as part of sparring (unless you use the sparring to batter them into compliance and then add the cuffing).

Hard to judge a school from one website or one visit... and worse to judge a whole style by that.

[Slindsay]

Resistance training does not have to equal sparring. There are quite a few Hapkido schools that "don't spar" but do train the technqiues with resistance. I think a general pattern is to set up the sitaution, try out the desired technqiues at slow speed and low resiatnce and then add speed and resistance while paying attention to things that go wrong or opportunities that open up. All of this can be done without sparring.

In some cases, the scenarios taught really wouldn't work well in a "sparring context". For example, teaching someone how to take someone down and put handcuffs on is probably beter taught as a specific set of skills with increasing speed and resiatnce instead of doing it as part of sparring (unless you use the sparring to batter them into compliance and then add the cuffing).

Hard to judge a school from one website or one visit... and worse to judge a whole style by that.

There are actually 4 clubs that are run by the same guy here. I've talked to people from all the clubs and even the senior classes BB's say that the emphasis is on learning new techniques and they don't do anything resembling resistance or pressure testing. I actually have a friend who studies it along with Ju Jitsu but he doesn't like it because essentially there is no form of pressure testing, no sparring, nothing except new techniques being taught.

[BSR]

If the only knowledge I had of two fighters was that one did Judo and one did Hapkido then my money would definetly be on the Judo guy. Mainly because you can be pretty damn sure that the Judo guy will have practiced against a resisting opponent whereas the only style of Hapkido I know includes no resistance trainning of any sort.

I would think any good Hapkido school would include resistance training. Not only that, but many Hapkido techniques designed by Choi were specifically designed to defend against Judo attacks such as lapel and belt grabs.

[Slindsay]

I would think any good Hapkido school would include resistance training. Not only that, but many Hapkido techniques designed by Choi were specifically designed to defend against Judo attacks such as lapel and belt grabs.

In my mind it doesnt matter what your techniques are designed to do, you have to have the reactions and the general ability to do them which is something I would associate more with a Judo guy than a Hapkido guy. Not saying that Hapkido trained well wouldn't be as good as or better than judo, it's just that I havent actually seen a club that trains like that.

[BSR]

In my mind it doesnt matter what your techniques are designed to do, you have to have the reactions and the general ability to do them which is something I would associate more with a Judo guy than a Hapkido guy. Not saying that Hapkido trained well wouldn't be as good as or better than judo, it's just that I havent actually seen a club that trains like that.

Yet you just admitted your only experience with Hapkido is looking at 4 different clubs which are all run by the same guy. :rolleyes:

You're free to prefer Judo over Hapkido all you want, but you can't make general assumptions about an art having so little exposure to it.

[Thomas]

There are actually 4 clubs that are run by the same guy here. I've talked to people from all the clubs and even the senior classes BB's say that the emphasis is on learning new techniques and they don't do anything resembling resistance or pressure testing. I actually have a friend who studies it along with Ju Jitsu but he doesn't like it because essentially there is no form of pressure testing, no sparring, nothing except new techniques being taught.
bold face added - I think this may be the key.

Again, it sounds to me like this "same guy" is doing things his way... which may not be representative of all Hapkido schools.

[Slindsay]

Yet you just admitted your only experience with Hapkido is looking at 4 different clubs which are all run by the same guy. :rolleyes:

You're free to prefer Judo over Hapkido all you want, but you can't make general assumptions about an art having so little exposure to it.


Well what am I meant to judge the art on then :rolleyes: :confused:

[Thomas]

Well what am I meant to judge the art on then :rolleyes: :confused:
That's a really good question....

1. I would say the best way to judge an art is to train in it under a qualified instructor for many years, and take the options of checking out other schools and instructors in the same art. (This is how I feel about TKD and HKD... and why my position is usually "it really depends on the individual school and students). Also, one needs to experience other arts to get an idea what else is out there.

2. Go to some seminars and try out several different schools run by different instructors of the same art... gives a good round impression of various instructors, students and topics.

3. Listen to people who have the experience and ask them questions and trust them (most of the time). In discussions on arts I don't (or haven't) study, I ask questions and listen to the replies by the experienced people. I don't see any need to make over-simplified sweeping generalizations if I really don't know anything about the art. For me, it's better to listen and learn.

[Timmy Boy]

If the Hapkido fighter has done live training (including sparring - sorry Thomas but IMHO this is by far the most important resistance drill) in all 3 ranges then he will probably win because he has the more rounded training. If not, the judoka will win.

[Thomas]

It all depends on the rules of the "match". If the match is under "Judo rules", I will bet on the Judo guy... that's what he does. If it's outside, after class with the Hapkido guy jumping him, using friends, weapons, and surprise, I'll go with the Hapkido guy.
If the Hapkido fighter has done live training (including sparring - sorry Thomas but IMHO this is by far the most important resistance drill) in all 3 ranges then he will probably win because he has the more rounded training. If not, the judoka will win.
I am a firm believer in the benefits of sparring... with different sets of rules, allowable areas, and levels of contact... so no "sorry" needed. Sparring is very useful to practice Hapkido skills in striking, takedowns, and ground work... we do open sparring (with good control, of course!).

There are some elements of Hapkido that don't need "sparring" to provide resistance. Working escorts or locks that are meant to be employed with a distraction or on someone who may not be an agressor (yet) is a ittle different than fighting... after all we are physically de-escalating. In these cases, we don't start from a "sparring" beginning, but role play it as if it is real... and then add resistance to the technqiues to allow for experiencing the technqiues and how to transition to others.

[BSR]

Well what am I meant to judge the art on then :rolleyes: :confused:

I don't think you can truly judge an art unless you've trained in it yourself, and to be fair, trained in it under more than one instructor.

I think the whole concept of judging arts is pretty silly. Nearly all established martial arts can be effective forms of self-defense, it all depends on the practitioner.

[shadow warrior]

The reason GM Choi was able to interest his first student (a judo BB), was he tried to throw GM Choi a number of times and was unable to do so because GM Choi applied pain compliance techniques..

Enough said!

Keith Stewart
Head Instructor
East West Hapkido

[smiff]

The reason GM Choi was able to interest his first student (a judo BB), was he tried to throw GM Choi a number of times and was unable to do so because GM Choi applied pain compliance techniques..

Enough said!

Keith Stewart
Head Instructor
East West Hapkido


isnt that judging the art on one fighter though, he may not have been the best judoka. once again it all depends on the fighter himself

[shadow warrior]

Smiff:

Maybe the Judo BB was one of the most feared in Korea. This is just as credible as he sucked! A little research will show that he was a very accomplished player!

Judo is a SPORT, there are no small joint manipulations (among countless other Hapkido techniques) permitted. I know from my Yudo (Korean version of Judo) experience, that people who can throw are dangerous people, but anyone with any real experience and common sense would ever compare the core purposes of the two styles.

All of my senior students can throw Yudo style, so they can practice against it. In Hapkido this is called KILL the throwing techniques.

Judo has no punching, kicking, twisting, pressure point attacks ect...

Individual variation among Hapkido stylists has nothing to do with the core skill sets as defined within this style. One of Hapkido's prime skill sets is twisting..used to specifically address garment grabbing attempts to throw. Where in Judo is found punch, kick, and twisting defences???

All styles have strengths, Judo has one or two at the highest level..Hapkido has many more resources by its very nature..Hapkido is NOT a sport.
There are NO rules.
I would put my money on the same person trained in Hapkido in the hard core way than the same person trained as a Judo player because the diversity and purpose of the training is much different!

K. Stewart

[shootodog]

judo is not a sport. please refer to my earlier post above. there is sport judo for sure, but that's just the tip of a very big iceberg.

[JimH]

Judo pre Kodokan was Kano's jujitsu.

Kano had studied Jujitsu for somewhere between 2-4 years,he had a total of 150 techniques,his job in education allowed him to bring his version of Jujitsu into the schools.
(Many in Jujistsu are said to have had 2500 techniques)

Jujitsu was fading,but with Kano's ability to get all the students involved in his form of jujitsu,many Jujitsu Masters backed him and hoped his Jujitsu would cause a rebirth in Jujitsu popularity.

Kano then developed the rules for competition and Judo Kodokan was developed,this caused many Jujitsu masters to feel betrayed and competitions between Jujitsu and Judo are said to have taken place.

Kano was also never a good ground or Mat fighter,Kano only really fought stand up,when Kano left Jujitsu he opened his school with 9 students who were able to teach the various aspects of his desire.
(Kano was a pacifist and so he sought to alter the art of jujitsu,as Ueshiba did later on)

So the usable Judo,combat Judo,pre Kodokan Judo are the same roots as Hapkido,jujitsu.

Kano had visited Ueshiba and when he first saw aikido,pre enlightenment,he said that,aikido,was Judo.

This is also why Kano had his students train with Takeda,and Ueshiba.

Takeda is the DRAJJ instructor for Choi,so we have come full circle.

Again we are comparing apples to apples,not apples to oranges, and if we look at the roots we will see they are in fact both apples,capable of being the same art if trained as such.(Judo can become Hapkido,hapkido can become Judo,the roots are the same jujitsu)

[shootodog]

Judo pre Kodokan was Kano's jujitsu.

Kano had studied Jujitsu for somewhere between 2-4 years,he had a total of 150 techniques,his job in education allowed him to bring his version of Jujitsu into the schools.
(Many in Jujistsu are said to have had 2500 techniques)

Jujitsu was fading,but with Kano's ability to get all the students involved in his form of jujitsu,many Jujitsu Masters backed him and hoped his Jujitsu would cause a rebirth in Jujitsu popularity.

Kano then developed the rules for competition and Judo Kodokan was developed,this caused many Jujitsu masters to feel betrayed and competitions between Jujitsu and Judo are said to have taken place.

Kano was also never a good ground or Mat fighter,Kano only really fought stand up,when Kano left Jujitsu he opened his school with 9 students who were able to teach the various aspects of his desire.
(Kano was a pacifist and so he sought to alter the art of jujitsu,as Ueshiba did later on)

So the usable Judo,combat Judo,pre Kodokan Judo are the same roots as Hapkido,jujitsu.

Kano had visited Ueshiba and when he first saw aikido,pre enlightenment,he said that,aikido,was Judo.

This is also why Kano had his students train with Takeda,and Ueshiba.

Takeda is the DRAJJ instructor for Choi,so we have come full circle.

Again we are comparing apples to apples,not apples to oranges, and if we look at the roots we will see they are in fact both apples,capable of being the same art if trained as such.(Judo can become Hapkido,hapkido can become Judo,the roots are the same jujitsu)

true that kano didn't have newaza at the onset but he started adopting newaza techniques of a certain jujutsu system (the name escapes me) after his kodokan fighters experienced defeat. after that, kodokan judo had newaza and the randori honned it. it is this famous newaza that was passed on to bjj through the great gracies.

kosen, police, combat and combatives also kept some aspects of jujutsu stiking in thier randori. thus preserving judo as a martial art.

[TheGnome]

Sounds like a few guys here have Judo and Hapkido experience. For those of you that don't, a huge part of any Judo match is establishing the grip you want. I've used some garment grab breakaways in Judo matches and it's driven guys crazy.I tend to work with a pretty low right hand grip and I needed to make sure I was getting my right hand on before they (If the guy was playing right handed) would get his left hand established. The breakaways helped alot.

[TheGnome]

shootodog, there is atemi waza in the standard Judo curriculum.

[Hapkid0ist]

It was with the Duk Moo federation. The reason given was because the techniques we would be taught where too deadly to be used in sparring. :rolleyes:

This is there website.

http://www.dukmoo.com/

This I have a serious problem with. 1. Proprer Use of force: Severity of techniques should be able to be changed based on the situation. We do a lot of resistance training. This is the only way you get the feel of a real opponent. Given it is in a controlled enviroment and your opponent usually knows everything you do, the counters and your style/weaknesses/strengths. And this is a bonus. You get the opportunity to train where there is a very high chance of failure in technique based on opponent skill and knowledge, and in turn you are also forced to work on counters and transitions into alternat techniques. But very few techniques CAN NOT be toned down to fit any use of force situations. Even breakes can be turned into locks and submissions. Its all about self control, ability and skill level.

As for what would be more deadly. Well, that is the eternal debate. And since I am no coward and not afraid to voice my opinions reguardless of how much I know I will get attacked, mauled, mutilated and verbally slaughtered. I honeslty believe that Hap Ki Do is one of the most effective arts out there. It does offer everything anny fighter will need for real world survival. There is no Adapting techniques for street use and the 8 other systems I have studied flow well into my HKD training. HKD was originally developed to fight against other traditional and clasical arts, Judo/Yudo being one of these main arts. Since its conception good men have taken and developed this art to a high degree ensuring our ability to face even the most progressive and eclectice, aggressive and new wave system out there. And as long as we as practitioners continue to keep Hapkido growing and developing it will stay in the forefront as one of the most respected korean systems, one of the most well rounded and complete, one of the most realistic and effective arts out there.
That being said, I am not saying HKD is 100% the best. There are a few other systems I place along side of HKD for these same reasons. I am saying that HKD offers what it takes. Ultimatly it all lies on the practitioner and intsructor. And if someone has a bad experience with a particular school, or even multiple schools, then it is expected that they will have a bad taste for an art, any art. But do not judge all by a few bad experiences. Every system that is alive and thrives does so becouse it has proven itself. But sometimes the practitioners and instructors do damage to their art, for what ever reason. And we must keep this in mind and look out for this as we check out studios. keep an open mind and try and see if the flaws are in the techniques, instructors, or elsewhere. As experienced MAist, we are more than capable of doing this. And a novice or beginer would be well advised to bring someone who is accomplished and knowledgable along with them to ensure that what is being seen is accuratly being observed and judged. A novice will not know what to look for and what to take into account, a veteran will.

[shadow warrior]

Shootdog:
Well over 90% of all recognized Judo practiced today is done so under the rules used in the Olympics, (JJA). That leaves about 10% of Judo other types some of which might be a throwback to prior Jujitsu type influences.

Of ALL the major JJA sanctioned schools here in Toronto NOT ONE school practices punch or kick defences, small joint locks, ect. I know two of the Head Instructors, (one JJA sixth, one seventh degree) personally and they both call Judo a SPORT. I think I will base my Judo and Yudo opinions on my own personal experineces and their expertise rather then your unsupported opinion.

If you were talking DRAJJ I would say that is not a sport. The only Judo or Yudo players which I have seen who are able to take those styles to more well rounded self defense or expanded application levels CROSSTRAINED in complimentary styles with far more diverse skill sets then are contained within those two limited styles.

If you want to insist that it is not a sport oriented system, you are flying in the face of widely accepted beliefs of people in general and MOST senior Judo practitioners themselves.

Support for Judo is NOT a sport will be extremely difficult to find among the vast majority of senior martial art practitioners with decades of experience. You might as well accept it!

Go find a hardcore Hapkido or DRAJJ school and get some actual crosstraining experience before thinking that adding a couple of inept striking techniques to a throwing oriented system will create a non sport style from one which is accepted as such!

Keith Stewart
Head Instructor
East WEst Hapkido

[shootodog]

Shootdog:
Well over 90% of all recognized Judo practiced today is done so under the rules used in the Olympics, (JJA). That leaves about 10% of Judo other types some of which might be a throwback to prior Jujitsu type influences.

Of ALL the major JJA sanctioned schools here in Toronto NOT ONE school practices punch or kick defences, small joint locks, ect. I know two of the Head Instructors, (one JJA sixth, one seventh degree) personally and they both call Judo a SPORT. I think I will base my Judo and Yudo opinions on my own personal experineces and their expertise rather then your unsupported opinion.

sure. so there are no schools out there that teach judo as a martial art. ok. i know of several where i am. i know of several out in the US and the EU and japan. so sure.

If you were talking DRAJJ I would say that is not a sport. The only Judo or Yudo players which I have seen who are able to take those styles to more well rounded self defense or expanded application levels CROSSTRAINED in complimentary styles with far more diverse skill sets then are contained within those two limited styles.

like i said, if you haven't been exposed to other types of judo, then i can see why you'd adopt this view.

If you want to insist that it is not a sport oriented system, you are flying in the face of widely accepted beliefs of people in general and MOST senior Judo practitioners themselves.

Support for Judo is NOT a sport will be extremely difficult to find among the vast majority of senior martial art practitioners with decades of experience. You might as well accept it!

i accept that many people think of judo as a combat sport. one increasingly being deprived of it's arsenal.

Go find a hardcore Hapkido or DRAJJ school and get some actual crosstraining experience before thinking that adding a couple of inept striking techniques to a throwing oriented system will create a non sport style from one which is accepted as such!

crosstrain in other styles? like fma? like pankration? like catch as catch can wrestling? like combat judo? like jj? like dumog & boltong? like rbsd? oh yeah. ;)

[nj_howard]

If you were talking DRAJJ I would say that is not a sport...
You're correct. DRAJJ is definitely not a sport. Like old-school Hapkido, it has no sporting / competitive component.

Go find a hardcore Hapkido or DRAJJ school and get some actual crosstraining experience...
IMO that's pretty good advice. But be forewarned that authentic DRAJJ schools are few and far between in North America. You'll be much more likely to find a Hapkido school nearby. for the simple reason that there are so many more of them than there are legit DRAJJ schools.

[TheGnome]

Competitive Judo offers the Judoka a chance to practice their skills in a safe combat "like" environment. The advantage to randori is that when placed in a real self defense situation the Judoka should be comfortable since he has experienced similar but not necessarily exact situations. I really think that the same thing can be done in Hapkido with or even without sparring. As an attacker (Uke) it is your responsibility to your defender (Tore) to make the situation as lifelike as can be safely dealt with. As both Uke and Tore's skill improve the more life like the practice should be. This is a concept that is very important in Judo. Also with the availability of of affordable and quality protective gear there are even more oppurtunities to do this in Hapkido. As I've mentioned before in another thread as a result when I've been in 1v1 sparring situations and MMA I've tended to rely on techniques I have more commonly used in shiai. However when I have been in real self defense situations such as approached from behind at an Automated Teller Machine, and called by my frantic 80+ year old landlady to remove an intruder from her yard at 1AM, it was Hapkido all the way. Had I not had those good partners (I stil have very good ones.) I might have gone with Judo stuff that would not have been as effective in those situations. So I guess I kind of think my answer to the question is either is effective, both done well together (If you insist on seeing them seperate) makes for a very strong system.

[shadow warrior]

Shootodog:

I have been exposed to a very broad range of Yudo and Judo stylists in my nearly 30 years in Hapkido. These people display skill sets in only two of many areas of martial art skill sets.

1. They employ various stand up throwing, reeping and sacrifices skills.

2. They employ various ground based techniques for choking, large joint locks for submission and diverse hold down and control skills.

What they do not practice among many skill sets are:

1. Stand up defences against ANY striking techniques.

2. Ground defences against striking techniques.

3. Stand up employment of small joint locks, projections or missdirections.

4. Stand up defences against small joint locks.

5. Ground defences against small joint locks.

6. ANY form of striking techniques.

If they are practicing these skill sets it is NOT JUDO or YUDO, it is either a form of jujitsu or mixed style MMA.

If you want a MARTIAL COMBAT oriented sytem from Japan DAJJ is THE choice to compliments classic Judo skills. The Korean form of Hapkido (in some lines) is also employed in this manor. But some of these Korean lines are infused with elite kicking and punching skills more than the DAJJ people.

After reading what you have posted a couple of times, I think who ever is teaching you is using techniques from the early roots of Jujitsu and still calling it Judo!!

Today's Judo is a sport oriented system with roots in the past within the Jujitsu lineage. If the style professes to teach skills outside the recognized core of that style, it is NOT Judo, but some other animal.

Judo was created as a sport oriented style. You can not rewrite history!

Keith Stewart
Head Instructor
East West Hapkido

[shootodog]

Shootodog:

Judo was created as a sport oriented style. You can not rewrite history!



judo was not created as a sport. judo was created as a martial art. the sport was due to the ban imposed on all japanese martial arts by general macarthur.

up to you. i'm willing to put money on it.

btw, why don't you check out history using the web...you'll be suprised.

i am done with this...i'm just a humble fma'er who loves all martial arts and just want to set the records straight.

[Legless_Marine]

Shootdog:
Well over 90% of all recognized Judo practiced today is done so under the rules used in the Olympics, (JJA). That leaves about 10% of Judo other types some of which might be a throwback to prior Jujitsu type influences.

Of ALL the major JJA sanctioned schools here in Toronto NOT ONE school practices punch or kick defences, small joint locks, ect. I know two of the Head Instructors, (one JJA sixth, one seventh degree) personally and they both call Judo a SPORT.

I think the concepts of Martial Art/Martial sport are not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Actually, I perceive that all of these combative pursuits lie in the middle of a triangle made up of the followng three points:

1. Martial Art
2. Martial Sport
3. Self defense system.

These combative pursuits can lie at any point between these three. Krav Maga, for instance, would lie very close to #3. Judo, I think, would lie in the middle area, but be closer to #2. Tai Chi, would lean closest to #1. Some non-sport styles would be right in the middle of #1 and #3, but far from #2.

Whether or not you agree with my examples, the point I strive to make is that Combatives can serve multiple "purposes" at once.

[JayKayD]

I'm suprised a 'which art is more deadly' thread even took off the ground. But in any case, seeing as this is one of those threads where people who do Judo say Judo is more 'deadly' and people who do Hapkido say Hapkido is more deadly, i vote for Judo.

[shadow warrior]

"Around 1880 Kano started rethinking the Jujitsu techniques he had learned. He saw by combining the best techniques of various schools into one system he could create a physical education program that would embody mental and physical skills. In addition, he believed that these techniques could be practiced as a COMPETITVE SPORT if the more DANGEROUS techniques were omitted."

Quote from the Official History of Judo from the JJA.

Research complete.

If it is martial oriented it is Jujitsu not Judo.

[TheGnome]

I'd have to disagree there, I kind of think your last statement was a bit off. Kanos intent was to remove the techniques most likely to cause injury if done in competitive situations, not to remove ones that are "martial". First off I've been in matches where the tap was missed by the ref (Fortunately I was on the positive side). My opponent was just as out as he would have been on the street, and on more than one occasion I've been in jujigatame where my arm would have been snapped like a twig had I not tapped. Second off the dangerous techniques are taught in Judo. Leg locks, small joint, strikes, knife defenses Are all part of Judo just not done in competition. Since my original place of learning was a combined Judo/Hapkido school most of that was covered in Hapkido class. When we were doing a self defense technique that were also part of more advanced Judo, our instructor would mention that and we even learned the Japaneese terms. I'm not trying to join the "who is more deadly" debate but as a person that has experience in both arts I think it is a big mistake to view Judo only as a sport. Shiai/Randori is a way to practice your Judo, it is not all there is to Judo.

[JTMS]

I agree with BSR. After all, the best martial art is the one that "YOU" practice. Not the one that "You" do not. We would all be better off using techniques from the system/style we train in to defend ourself. So to answer the question which is better for self defense Judo or hapkido? Judo if you practice Judo Hapkido if you practice Hapkido.

God bless

[shadow warrior]

The last post I put up was an excerpt from the official JJA history of Judo..

This is what they say..not my words..

I never go into the which is more deadly debate. All I did was state the generally accepted recognized purpose of Judo as reflected by the world body of that style..and those views of a number of high ranking Judo instructors whom I know personally...Judo is a sport, a good starting point to learn Hapkido...

[Legless_Marine]

After all, the best martial art is the one that "YOU" practice.

How did you know I practiced Hapkido??


:)

[TheGnome]

SW The part of your comment I was speaking of was the part where you stated if it is martial it is Jujitsu. I see that as your own editorial of the piece that you got from the JJA. I'm not sure what the policy on posting other sites is around here but if you get a chance look up the Judo Info site. There is a section on articles including a few on the "sport vs. martial' issue that make for some good reading. I don't really see any techniques in Judo that do not have martial applications. From Nagewaza to Oseakomiwaza and down the line I feel it all has or at least had martial applications.

[Antonio Blanco]

Hi everyone,
I am an Instructor for DUKMOO Academy. I have trained in a few Martial Arts, aslo I am a black Belt, in Taekwondo, Judo and Hapkido.

I did enjoy my experience practicing Judo in competitions as well as I enjoyed the experience in Taekwondo.

In my opinion Hapkido covers more ground in the fighting scene. In our School we learn other martial arts aspects as well, teakwondo, Yudo , kumdo, Aikido,Kung Fu etc..One must know what he/she is fighting against.

It is not what you know, but how you use it.strategy,strategy,strategy!

Antonio Blanco
KHF
www.dukmoo.com

[Cannibal Bob]

Shootdog:
Well over 90% of all recognized Judo practiced today is done so under the rules used in the Olympics, (JJA). That leaves about 10% of Judo other types some of which might be a throwback to prior Jujitsu type influences.

If you were talking DRAJJ I would say that is not a sport. The only Judo or Yudo players which I have seen who are able to take those styles to more well rounded self defense or expanded application levels CROSSTRAINED in complimentary styles with far more diverse skill sets then are contained within those two limited styles.

If you want to insist that it is not a sport oriented system, you are flying in the face of widely accepted beliefs of people in general and MOST senior Judo practitioners themselves.

Support for Judo is NOT a sport will be extremely difficult to find among the vast majority of senior martial art practitioners with decades of experience. You might as well accept it!
I'm not getting into the style vs style debate, as I think it's the practitioner, not the style that matters, but I would like to address the sport judo thing.

Years ago, while training under a good karate instructor, we did alot of defences of a rugby tackle.

The reason for this is that my instructor worked as a bouncer for years, and the city I happen to live in is mad for football. This resulted in my instructor mainly being attacked with a rugby style tackle.

We trained for this alot because it can be a surprise when a large, conditioned player charges into you. After all, footballers tackle constantly, so it comes naturally to them.

My point is that football is a sport, and not even a combat sport, yet it equipped the players with an effective and overwhelming attack against an untrained opponent.

So it would be unwise to underestimate judo just because it is a sport. A throw on concrete will almost always do damage, and most throws I've seen so far leave the thrower in an advantageous position over the thrown, so even if the throw didn't stop the attacker, that doesn't mean the judoka is restricted to only judo techniques. ie, stomping on the head. (Hope I don't sound like a nut.)

And in regards to the lack of striking, is it that hard to go to a boxing gym once or twice a week, even if boxing is also a sport.

I say, between judo and hapkido, do whichever one you like, there's no point in training in a system in which you lack confidence or don't enjoy. ;)

Sorry, I'm rambling.