Belts, belts, belt ... :-(

[Budoka]

Hi People!

During reading in this and other forums, talking to other Budokas or Wu Shu Students (and people from other MAs such as TKD etc.) I noticed that belt colors have a meaning for a lot of people.
Some are very proud and are thinking that they are better as someone wearing a belt of lower level or not worthy enough for someone warring a belt of higher rank. But is that true Martial Art?

I perform MAs for over a year. I began with Aikido and a short time later Ninjutsu.

I could have get my 5. Kyu Aikido but it was absolutely out of interest for me. My Sensai is one of those who teaches all techniques to all his students, regardless of the graduation.

Regardless of the color of my belt (white like snow) I know that I can defend myself and are not as defenselessly as I was some years ago.

I began to train with Ju-Jutsuka (2. Kyu Ju-Jutsu, 7. Kyu Shotokan Karate and experience in TKD, Judo, Aikido and Ninjutsu) in a "freestyle" way. We train with total full contact and any style we know. During that kind of training he shows me techniques from every MA he knows.

Although I have no graduation and never fight in a tournament I block almost every technique he attacks me with and counterattack almost every attack - and he does the same. He is more experienced and knows more techniques and nevertheless he accepts me as a worthy training partner and our training is always very useful. We train outside in a public park - he is wearing a Karate - Gi with his graduation - I wear a Ninpo - Gi. So different, but nevertheless to people following the same path.

What I want to say is: why do people think that someone wearing a belt is a better fighter than someone not wearing one?

Or why do people think, that someone wearing a belt is a better human than anyone other?

[Bon]

I don't, I'm quite content with my white belt.

[Greg-VT]

Yea, I couldn't really care for them at all -and don't :D

But yes Boduka, I can see what your saying quite clearly.

Welcome to MAP by the way.

[Jim]

I'd like to offer you my insights on this topic, but I don't speak with white belts. ;)

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Jim
I'd like to offer you my insights on this topic, but I don't speak with white belts. ;)

LOL :D

[cal_JJJ]

Budoka; If I step onto a mat or into a ring to train with you & you are wearing a white-belt then we are doing white-belt level training no matter what you or your instructor claim that your abillities are. If you want to frame that in the light of the two questions you presented, you are welcome to support your point of view however you like. But no other individual's point of view is more important than individual resposibility. I invite you to convince me otherwise.

[pgm316]

Originally posted by Jim
I'd like to offer you my insights on this topic, but I don't speak with white belts. ;)

I'd like to hear you say that to a turquoise belt!

:p

[Saz]

Its a sad fact, but lower grades do get looked down by the higher grades. I fought in competition recently, and had to fight a brown belt. We were chatting after the fight and she said "I looked at you and thought 'ha, yellow belt, this will be easy' but I was wrong" I told her I wasn't too keen on having to fight a brown belt myself. I don't see why people assume, low grade = bad fighter, but they do :(

[cal_JJJ]

Sorry Kyokushin, but I just don't get this. Perhaps, things are way diff. in my corner of paradise. But, I think persons in your system should assume that your less of a fighter at yellow than that of brown for your own safety, if not then you should be elevated to brown belt so that you can continue your great progress w/ students of your same abillities.

[WhiteWizard]

i think thats a load of mince the only thing it shows is that you probably haven't trained as long as the other person some people are just gifted fighters. this goes back to the fact that a belt means nothing just a way of motivation it is not a true measure of skill different people have different ways of working it too. and promote them what a load of mince why not just learn the same techniques and get rid of the ranking system oh you can't learn this till you are a brown belt how stupid is that. many people at higher level belts are no where near as gifted as some people on lower grades its just the way it is in the end a belt is a piece of fabric nothing more or less

[cal_JJJ]

I understand, & to some degree, agree w/ what you are saying White Wiz. But, I wasn't standing up for the ranking system as a measure of abillity.

Let me put it this way, say you step into the ring w/ a white belt who claims to be as good as any black-belt. And they don't measure up and spend the next x-years in a wheel chair because of a fight w/ you.

vs.

But say you step into the ring w/ another black-belt who has let skills degrade to that of a white belt and as a result ends up in a wheel chair for x-years because of a fight w/ you.

Both are equally sad, but very diff. Which is why belt ranking is the best means of responsible MA, at least for now.

[Kwan Jang]

-I see the belts as basically the same as grades in school for a student. Is a high school senoir smarter or a better person than a freshman? No, but they should have a higher level of progression in their learning to an extent. By a certain level, the standards should be high enough that only a high level of competency should exist for any practioner at that level. (Ex. Phd or master's level). There may be others who are just as competent, but those levels should indicate a high level if legitimately earned. I really have yet to here any good arguements against the belt system if it is being properly used. I have heard many against it's misuse, but I don't see why there is any need to throw the baby out w/ the bath water. I see it as a useful tool. Not everyone needs to choose to use it. That is their perogative. OTOH, I see it as useful for both students and for instructors (I do admit freely that many abuse and misuse the belt system for either ego or to put others down and I do not support that at all. Also, the belts only have any meaning if in earning them it requires the student to grow and progress.)

[47Ronin]

it is true i can take out 3 quarters of the black belts in my school and i am only green belt.
to me it is like a time chart( at that school i know another one who grades righteously)..

[jmd161]

People put too much value into belts.Belts in most systems are used to keep students interested.To give them something to shoot for and show a sense of progress.In Black Tiger everyone wears a black sash,but it has no rank value.It's the color sash of the school.Your rank is judged by your place in the school.Meaning through sparring and when you joined the school give you your level of respect.


jeff:)

[47Ronin]

i totally agree with you i wish it was like that..

[47Ronin]

your school i meen by that..

[jmd161]

I hear you.:D




jeff:)

[cal_JJJ]

Thanks for the positive comment Kwan Jang.

In all honesty, I think that you are all correct on this issue.

It depends a great deal on the the system that you are training in. Some systems have a narrow age group that they target & belt ranking is sort of silly. While other systems are very wide, say 4 to 80 yr.olds, & belt ranking is very much needed for safety, organization, and fair contests.

The only person who is wrong on the belt issue, is the one who beleaves that his belt proves that he is a superior human being.

....unless he is the only one who can keep his pants up. :D

Its been fun. Bye

[Anne]

I believe in the belt system. I like the structure it provides, especially just because if you're learning a form in yellow belt level, and just need clarification, you know who to go to. I like the simplicity it provides, you know what you should be working on, because it is predetermined to help you advance in your fighting technique and skill most efficiently.

[Thomas]

I would never want to train in a school where people are put down because of the color of the belt they wear. (And there are some schools like that out there.) Everyone should be treated with the same respect and courtesy, whether it is their 1st class or if they are an old master. Although the belt debate has raged on different threads, I would like to add a few comment here about the benefits of belts:

(1) if a system uses belts, then usually the curriculum is tied to belt color. As an instructor or student, I can see very quickly what individual students should be working on according to their level.

(2) Belts give a rough idea of how long a student has been training and what they should know. This helps when you set up training activities or sparring.

A belt does not indicate anything else about a person and white belts should be treated with the same respect as the black belts (and all in between).


Along the point that Cal_JJJ brought up, in sparring the belt color gives you an idea of what level to work at. In my experience, I find working with the white and yellow belts a bit harrowing because of their lack of control, their aggression, and their lack of practice in blocking and defending. With the greens and blues, I expect to see more finesse, footwork and such. With the reds, I expect to see a fairly complete package. The belt color gives me an idea of what to expect as well as an idea of what drills to run before sparring.

[Budoka]

@cal_JJJ

there is only on comment I can add.

what If someone, for example me, don't make belt exams. I don't make them, because they have no importance for me.
You would be astonisehd how some greens and browns are looking when they are training with me. I have no belt, but I now the basics of footwork and so on. I kick as high as a brown or green does (2 meters) and my kicks are stable. It is a pity that most sensais in germany only teach you the following techniques when you have done your belt exam :-(

[Yin and Yang]

I think having belts is ok. In my school you can have a green belt and know what a black belt knows, it doesnt really matter. The only people that treat others different are the young white belts who feel they should look up to the older and higher people.
-X

[cal_JJJ]

Budoka:

I don't have any answers for you, I can only offer my opinion.

You have involved yourself in a system that has belt-ranks, testing, competitions, etc. none of which you are interested in. Yet, part of finding out how well you are learning is to see how you hold up under pressure such as testing & competitions.

If you just want to do the techniques and not the system, by the video. But don't blame the instructors for following teaching methods that have been in place for around fifty years now w/ good results for most students.

By the way, I also think that respect is the duty of all ranks & I am sorry if I mistakenly implied otherwise.

It is interesting that you left Aikido, as that is one of the few systems that don't have belt ranks. The ones that I have studied w/ just had White & Black -- Student & Intructor.

Sorry for all the edits, but there is no clear right or wrong in your situation unless you are being disrespected.

[Grifter]

I dont really care if I get a belt, or anything for that matter, that shows my rank.

[cal_JJJ]

Well, good for you Grifter. One shouldn't care about training just to obtain rank.

I had to chuckle though when I looked at your profile. If you think that there is sometimes a problem w/ higher ranks disrespecting lower ranks in MA, well you haven't seen anything yet...... good luck w/ your USMC career.

[mani]

I view belts as a symbol that provides motivation to students lower down to work harder.

But yes some students do think that they are superior to grades lower than them, which sucks!!

[Budoka]

@Cal_JJJ
I could have get my 5. Kyu Aikido but it was absolutely out of interest for me
--> I didn't say I left Aikido. I'm sorry for my bad grammar. I meant that I did not make the exam not that I left the Aikido training. I made a break because of an accident, but I started training again some weeks ago.

You have involved yourself in a system that has belt-ranks, testing, competitions, etc. none of which you are interested in
--> That's not totally correct. I began training within a training group. And I follow the path an Aikidoka is going. I also follow the path a Ninjutsuka is going. It's something of one and all of all. See: the training is for me like the statue for for the sculptor. It the realization of an idea. It is the path most MAs go, isn't it? Why burden with exams and competitions while the only important thing is to learn and to walk on the path?

If you just want to do the techniques and not the system, by the video
--> I want to learn the mental aspects of the systems as well as the technical.
In former times there were no belts. No exams. Only fighting, praying and surviving. Why not return to the old ways? A good example for that is traditional Kung Fu. No belts. Only training.


But don't blame the instructors for following teaching methods that have been in place for around fifty years now w/ good results for most students.
--> I see the instructor as well as any one student as a part of the system. And as a part of the training. The all do what I do. But they have ranks. But that's irrelevant for me. In the moment of the training you don't "feel" the ranks. You only "feel" the system.

[cal_JJJ]

Budoka:

By the way you worded your last post, it sounds as if you have a very good handle on what you expect to get from MA's, and that is to your credit.

But going back to your original questions.. " Why do people think this & Why do people think that"........... most people don't. Some people do & thats too bad. And some people just think that they are being treated unfairly because the instructors won't change the rules for one person's needs. Which is what I was digging for in my very first reply.

The past is the past. If you want to search out a style that caiters to your way of thinking.... your free to do so.

[Budoka]

Call_JJJ
You are absolutely right. I know people going to a dojo and thinking: "I will learn to fight and I am the most important person in the group". They feel treated unfairly by their sensai. But they do not consider that even a grandmaster began as a white belt. I trained with some sensais during the last year. And they all were hard. But they do not want to harm or to treat someone bad. They only want their studets to give their best. And even when they failed - they say: "You gave your best. That's the best you can do."
One sensai said to me: "A student failing one time will be a better master than someone never making a mistake. Someone who fails learns. Someone who never make mistakes will not know how it feels to fail. Make a mistake and you learn. Fail and think about it. And if you really think about you will NEVER make the same mistake again."
And he was right. Most mistakes I made happens only one time. It like a children who touches a hot stove only time time in his live and learned from that experience.

[Cudgel]

I too have noticed that some people seem to think that because they hold higher rank than someone that they are better.
My sister is one. she has Yellow belt inTKD whereas I have an orange belt from the breif period I did TKD and she seems thinks that I lesser person becuase I left it. Weird considering the fact she rfuses to sparr with me on the grounds I would hurt her.

Some peopel needs ranks to shoot for and thats fine so long as those people realize that not every body does something for a brightly colored piece of cloth. I study the MAs to increase my skills in the Arts of War and if i fel that I am not getting what i want out of my training I find somewhere else to get it.

[Uechi Ryu]

w/e.... i only came in Karate cause of the belts... i just like looking towards a goal.... im white belt now and i bet id still kick a black belts ass in street fighting...

[KickChick]

Ah... here's my 2 pennies worth.... (beware this a short history lesson)

Remember all our styles and origins differ...what may be important to you and your training may not be as important to others.

Most martial art styles that have ranking/belt color systems adopted them from Japanese Karate.

Before Jigero Kano invented Judo in Japan in 1882, there was no kyu (kyu is the Japanese equivalent of gup)/dan ranking system. Kano invented the ranking system when he awarded shodan rank to two of his senior students in 1883. However, there was no belt color differences between "yudansha" (dan ranks) and "mudansha" (those who had not yet attained dan ranking). Kano apparently began the custom of having his yudansha wear black belts in 1886. However, these belts were not the belts Judo and Karate students wear today. Since Kano had not invented the judo uniform yet, his students practiced in a "kimono" (the traditional Japanese robe). The belt they wore was the wide belt that is still worn with the formal kimono. In 1907, Kano introduced the modern Judo uniform and belt, but he still only used white and black belts.

Karate came to Japan from Okinawa in the 1920's. Until that time, Okinawa karate students did not have special uniforms, they trained in their everyday clothes. When Funakoshi introduced Karate into Japan from Okinawa in 1922, he adopted the Judo kyu/dan ranking system and a modified judo uniform in an effort to encourage Japanese acceptance of Karate. He awarded his first shodan ranks in 1924.

Speaking in accordance with Tae Kwon do... traditionally, when a person began training, he or she received a white belt to hold the uniform together.
After many months of training, the white would begin to discolor and become yellowish and possibly orange. After many months of rigorous practice, many times in grassy fields, the belt would take on a green appearance as it discolored further. After several years of practice, the belt would further darken, assuming a dark blue or purple hue. After numerous sparring sessions, the belt might develop a red or brown hue from the accumulation of bloodstains. After several decades of Tae kwon do training, the belt would gradually turn black. If the student devoted his or her life to Tae kwon do training, the belt would continue to darken, but it would also begin to fray and begin to show spots of white from its inner core. Gradually, most of the black would wear away and the belt would become white again, signifying that the student had come full circle and reached the final stage of enlightenment.

The belt encircles its wearer. The circle is a universal symbol of wholeness and harmony, and symbolizes the totality of the universe. The circularity of the belt reinforces the circular cycle of Tae kwon do training... the fact that, after years of training, one realizes that the true essence of the art existed at the beginning.

As a practical matter, the Tae kwon do belt holds the uniform closed, but its real significance is far greater than merely being a clasp or even a signifier of rank. The belt has symbolic meanings, both in eastern philosophy and in its color.

So why even have Belts??
In Korea, the ordinary belt is addressed as "horitti" or "yodae" (meaning waist belt). The belt used in Tae kwon do is called "tti." In Tae kwon do, the belt serves the utilitarian purpose of holding the uniform together, but its main purpose is to document a student’s progression through Tae kwon do. Just as the "The sapling is hidden amongst the taller oak trees and must fight its way upward," students must struggle to achieve TKD proficiency.

The belt system rewards them for their struggle and perseverance and encourages them to develop their skills, discipline, and self-control so they may progress to even higher belt levels. Belt color denotes the proficiency level of the wearer and it is the outward expression of the wearer’s inner level of confidence and wisdom.

Belts also help an instructor properly manage a training class. From the front of a class, an instructor may quickly evaluate the training levels of the entire class using the belts the students are wearing.

[cal_JJJ]

KC, that was a fair bit of information for 2-cents.

But ref. to the last two paragraghs of your post, do think an instructor should train a student according to thier current rank or according to thier perceived abillities? And lets assume an average size school w/ say 10-15 students per class, and one instructor w/ an assistant on average per class.

[Fight]

training 10-15 students per class is ok though

[Fight]

hey i am looking for a muaythai clubs in london to teachm anybody can advise? thanks...

[Thomas]

Originally posted by cal_JJJ
KC, that was a fair bit of information for 2-cents.

But ref. to the last two paragraghs of your post, do think an instructor should train a student according to thier current rank or according to thier perceived abillities? And lets assume an average size school w/ say 10-15 students per class, and one instructor w/ an assistant on average per class.

If I may offer an opinion on this one well... as an assistant instructor who gets in front of a class fairly often, I have to say it depends on the student and class. Specifically, I know some students who have abilities above the rank they wear. If I know this personally, then I will train them at their ability level. A student that I don't know I will train according to the level indicated by the belt they wear. As I get to know them and what their real abilities are, I will adjust accordingly.

One exception is when we have a large class, with a lot of junior or new students. In that case, people train in the group and skills as indicated by their belts.This is to demonstrate to new students the rank system and to show how different students may be doing different things. Again, it depends on how well I know the students and the class size.

With a class size under 15, it is pretty easy to get to know all of the students fairly quickly and then train them according to need, which ideally should match roughly with the belt they wear (which to me just indicates where they stand on curriculum completion). More than 15 students makes separation by ranks amore necessary technique.

[cal_JJJ]

so you are saying that if you had a group that included five yellow-belt students and one of those students had the abillity to go ahead & learn blue-belt techniques you would go ahead and teach the yellow-belt blue-belt techniques (sorry for the run on sentence).

[KickChick]

Our school does not promote ranks as a "group"... you advance individually according to your attendance count and sometimes (although very rare) when advised by the master instructor.

Our adult classes on a given evening can total some 30 students.
When going through kata or techniques ... it helps the instructor to be able to bow out those students who haven't yet learned say hook kick yet (green belt technique) or say Hwa Rang (brown belt form)...

Never will you see a gold/yellow belt doing a blue belt technique ... our classes are not just conducted in such a manner.

[cal_JJJ]

KC: Never will you see a gold/yellow belt doing a blue belt technique....

This is what I was fishing for. I agree & I would venture to say it is how it would be in most MA schools. To do otherwise can create a whole host of problems. Now..........

Thomas:... some students who have abilities above the rank they wear......then I will train them at their ability level.

And ............

Budoka:.... My Sensei is one of those who teaches all techniques to all students.

........that may be fine in very small schools or some styles, but otherwise can be cause a lot of problems for the students and the school.

[Thomas]

Cal_JJJ: Let me try to give some opinions from my experience and system...

Your question about a group of 5 yellow belts, one of which has the ability for blue belt techniques... no, I will train them ALL under the yellow belt curriculum.

My comments about training to ability level really depends on the situation. By the way, ability level and curriculum should not be confused... in a belt ranked system, the curriculum is spelled out for students at each level. If they have "mastered" the curriculum for that level, they should be tested and promoted if they meet ALL of the dojang requirements (including attitude and etc.)

The situation at my school is a bit different. We teach primarily adults at a University. We have a large amount of new students joining and we lose quite a few with moving, vacations, and graduation. We do have a committed hard core group as well. In addition, about 15-25% of our students join us from a background of another style. Others join for the "self defence" class that we offer the hour prior to TKD and they stay on for TKD.

Because of those factors, if we have a large class, like I ran last night, we do common tasks and add on pieces for each belt level. Students work with a partner of similar rank and perform tasks related to that rank. Other nights, if it is a small group, everyone will work together on more specialized tasks or cross training. In a small group it is easier to identify who can handle what.

On a final note, just because a yellow belt can "handle" blue belt techniques does NOT mean they are ready to. The curriculum is set up as an expanding (spiralling) one that builds new techniques on top of old ones that have been MASTERED. Many of our class revolove around practicing the tried and tyrue basics, no matter what rank you hold. Until you master the basics, you will not be ready for the intermediate, and so on. Eventually all students will learn all techniques if they stay on long enough and work diligently to master the beginning and following techniques.

[cal_JJJ]

I completely agree with you Thomas; both of your post are very well written.

What do you say to this then?
_________________________________________________
Budoka:
"what If someone, for example me, don't make belt exams. I don't make them, because they have no importance for me.
It is a pity that most sensais in germany only teach you the following techniques when you have done your belt exam" :-(
__________________________________________________
Don't you think this kind of stand is counter productive. On one hand a person has elected to be a MA'ist, & on the other hand places opinions of the system ahead of progress to "the following techniques".

[AmberJade]

Im only a beginner, just started about six weeks ago. I am just focussing on aiming for my red belt, i am not even thinking about
the higher grades, i am going to take this step by step. The reason i am doing this is first and foremost is because i really enjoy it and it challenges me both mentally and physically.

[Thomas]

Originally posted by cal_JJJ
I completely agree with you Thomas; both of your post are very well written.

What do you say to this then?
_________________________________________________
Budoka:
"what If someone, for example me, don't make belt exams. I don't make them, because they have no importance for me.
It is a pity that most sensais in germany only teach you the following techniques when you have done your belt exam" :-(
__________________________________________________
Don't you think this kind of stand is counter productive. On one hand a person has elected to be a MA'ist, & on the other hand places opinions of the system ahead of progress to "the following techniques".


I guess it depends what you are going for. Sometimes I go to another school (upon invitation) and cross-train. I might learn (or be taught) a variety of techniques which may fall throughout the curriculum of that style. In this case I am being trained at my (perceived) ability level. They have decided that I am sufficiently trained in my own system to be able to use their techniques properly. I am not studying with them to go for belt ranking. If I was, I would have to follow their curriculum.

If you join a school and train but do not want to test for a belt (in a belt system, that is), then don't be surprised if you never get taught more advanced techniques, especially if it is a school with lots of students. In a smaller school (or even class size) that you are a regular, you may learn techniques "above your rank" but will still have to learn them in the established order. This is the way the school is set up and the techniques are designed to build upon one another. We happen to use a belt system to determine how far someone has come along the curriculum.

Again, I like the belt system because it gives me an idea what students should be learning. If you train in a system with belt ranking, then expect to test for higher levels before youy get into the more advanced techniques. If you don't want to "hold a belt of a certain color" then you really have two choices: (1) find a school without belts or (2) do the tests and earn the rank but don't dwell on it. The belt is just a peice of colored cloth which tells the instructor(s) how far in the system you are. There's nothing written that you have to acknowledge that outside of class.

[darlph]

Belts! My 2cents worth. I was going to test for 2nd Dan this month. Blew the knee. Now mind you, I studied years ago under a different style and obtained a suitable rank at the time. At this point in my life, I admitted to myself I would do my best to test for this new rank because I am an instructor, but,..............in reality, I really don't want the stripe. I have earned the respect of other students and instructors by my desire and actions in and out of the school. Just because a person is a really good fighter doesn't make him an excellent martial artist. The only competiton you have in MA is truly yourself. Not if some one is kicking your butt at a tournament. If you lose, you should learn why and practice harder for the next time. It is up to you.
The belt is a goal in most systems. How dedicated are you really? The attitude and actions of the instructors set the attitude of the school. A blue belt in one school made be a lower rank in another school of MA. As a white belt, you are beginning a new path in your life. You will change you attitudes and reactions as you develop and learn at each level. I recently helped in a Japanese taught system at the community asian center. They were totally amazed that an old lady could kick higher and do splits. and that I was only a a 1st degree. But I let them know they had me at spinning and jumping. I let them know it it was about attitude not just skill, to succeed.
The belt may not mean anything to you now, but if you want to compete in tourneys, it will. Most professional ones split the same equivalent ranks into thier own groups. If you are the only blue belt doing kata, you get a prize, but if you go against several, it's a different story. Sparring is the same. Different styles different techs and,.................different people you have never sparred before with different training.
Yes, there are upper ranks who look down on the unders, but isn't that like school? And then when you graduated, did it matter any more? I would also like to point out that a good percentage of students who make Black Belt feel it is is the end of the journey, those who stay, know it is only the beginnig.
Thomas what you say is very true. You may learn more advanced techs, but you will never move on if you don't test.
You will end up watching, wishing, hoping, and you will either get digusted and quit, or, wake up one morning and decide I am going to do this and not be looked down upon any more.

[cal_JJJ]

Budoka; There you go.

As to your statement..
"...I now the basics of footwork and so on. I kick as high as a brown or green does (2 meters) and my kicks are stable. It is a pity that most sensais in germany only teach you the following techniques when you have done your belt exam :-("

I say that it isn't a pity, that is just the way it is. Or as Thomas states much better than I ever could....

"If you join a school and train but do not want to test for a belt (in a belt system, that is), then don't be surprised if you never get taught more advanced techniques, especially if it is a school with lots of students. In a smaller school (or even class size) that you are a regular, you may learn techniques "above your rank" but will still have to learn them in the established order. This is the way the school is set up and the techniques are designed to build upon one another. We happen to use a belt system to determine how far someone has come along the curriculum."

[Kwajman]

Very good response darlph, it said a lot of things much more eloquently than I could have. While we're on belts, what is going on with these camoflage belts? What the heck do they mean?

[Thomas]

I don't know but I saw them in a catalog right next to the "Velcro closure" belts!

[Kwajman]

My master would keel over if a student walked in with a velcro closure......

[Mike O'Leary]

People put too much value into belts.Belts in most systems are used to keep students interested.To give them something to shoot for and show a sense of progress.In Black Tiger everyone wears a black sash,but it has no rank value.It's the color sash of the school.Your rank is judged by your place in the school.Meaning through sparring and when you joined the school give you your level of respect.


jeff:)




I agree with most of what you say. I do have some reservations with your comments on your position in the school being based on Sparring. What happens when your students get old? There will come a time, and ages will differ, but the time will come when the student can beat the teacher physically. I'm talking of when your teacher gets into his 60's and 70's or suffers from a serious illness that takes its toll. Do they then lose respect?

I know it doesnt happen that way, older students and instructors are always respected, just dont forget that. Respect in the school should be based on practice, perserverence, knowledge and the example they set.

I have seen fottage of old men doing kata in Okinawa. Shoshin Nagamine did kata for the world tournament I beleive in 99, he was in his ninety's just before his death. He was head of one of the Shorin Ryu systems. At his age i'm sure his students were not worried about how well he could spar.

When we are capable of fighting and training hard we should do so, we should also be afforded the respect of years of training when we can no longer do it at the same level as a 25 year old.

Mike O'leary

[jmd161]

I agree with most of what you say. I do have some reservations with your comments on your position in the school being based on Sparring. What happens when your students get old? There will come a time, and ages will differ, but the time will come when the student can beat the teacher physically. I'm talking of when your teacher gets into his 60's and 70's or suffers from a serious illness that takes its toll. Do they then lose respect?

I know it doesnt happen that way, older students and instructors are always respected, just dont forget that. Respect in the school should be based on practice, perserverence, knowledge and the example they set.

I have seen fottage of old men doing kata in Okinawa. Shoshin Nagamine did kata for the world tournament I beleive in 99, he was in his ninety's just before his death. He was head of one of the Shorin Ryu systems. At his age i'm sure his students were not worried about how well he could spar.

When we are capable of fighting and training hard we should do so, we should also be afforded the respect of years of training when we can no longer do it at the same level as a 25 year old.

Mike O'leary

Mike,

I think you misunderstood my post

If you look at my post you will see this

Your rank is judged by your place in the school.Meaning through sparring and when you joined the school give you your level of respect.


That means that the sparring gives you your level of respect within that area ,but you will "ALWAYS" have the respect of your brothers ,based on when you joined the school. Even someone that left the school for sometime and came back. If they were there before me they will always be my sihing (older brother) It does'nt matter if i know more than them or if i'm a better fighter than them. I will always have to give them that respect of being a big brother.

So if i'm blessed to someday be as good as my sifu. It does'nt matter he will always be my sifu ,and i will always give him that respect.

jeff:)

[La Mancha]

Hi
To me a belt no matter what colour means one of 3 things.
1. The elastic broke in your pants.
2. You are on an ego trip.
3. The system you practice uses the belts as a grading system.

I train in Iaido and the belt (obi) is for keeping the sword in.
I had a good laugh once when someone came up to me and said " I am better than you as I have a black belt " ( in Iaido yet ).

You must admit that your teacher would have a fit if you turned up with braces (suspenders for our american friends) holding up your Gi/Hakama.

Just a little light hearted comment for what its worth.

David

[pgm316]

Another thing I've noticed about belts....

Lower colour belted people often treat higher graded people with too much repect. Like they won't attempt to challenge them in sparring.

[Covaliufan]

I would agree with most claims that belts are meaningless, or can be meaningless...except in arts highly focused on competition. Bjj is an example of this. There are no "black belt techniques," no particular moves you start to learn as a blue belt or purple belt. The belt isn't meant to measure how long you've been in the art, or if you've passed certain structured tests. It's meant to be an indicator of one's ability to grapple under submission grappling rules, and given at an instructor's discretion.

When you can go even with the blue belts, you're given a blue belt. It's easy to tell who is better than who, just have them roll a few times and see who's tapping. Consistent standards are maintained by having frequent tournaments where students from different schools and clubs compete. No teacher will overpromote, as he'll be embarassed when his students get wrecked by similarly ranked students at other academies.

I'm a begginer, a white belt. When I see someone with a purple belt, there's no doubt in my mind that he can out grapple me. It's possible for someone to train in an unstructured setting, or in some other art, and despite having no bjj belt being an excellent submission grappler capable of tapping high ranked bjj students, but you're very unlikely to find anyone with a belt in bjj who doesn't have the competitive grappling ability to back it up.

[pgm316]

I would agree with most claims that belts are meaningless, or can be meaningless...except in arts highly focused on competition. Bjj is an example of this. There are no "black belt techniques," no particular moves you start to learn as a blue belt or purple belt. The belt isn't meant to measure how long you've been in the art, or if you've passed certain structured tests. It's meant to be an indicator of one's ability to grapple under submission grappling rules, and given at an instructor's discretion.

When you can go even with the blue belts, you're given a blue belt. It's easy to tell who is better than who, just have them roll a few times and see who's tapping. Consistent standards are maintained by having frequent tournaments where students from different schools and clubs compete. No teacher will overpromote, as he'll be embarassed when his students get wrecked by similarly ranked students at other academies.

I'm a begginer, a white belt. When I see someone with a purple belt, there's no doubt in my mind that he can out grapple me. It's possible for someone to train in an unstructured setting, or in some other art, and despite having no bjj belt being an excellent submission grappler capable of tapping high ranked bjj students, but you're very unlikely to find anyone with a belt in bjj who doesn't have the competitive grappling ability to back it up.

That makes more sense in a grappling oriented style. Tapping out as opposed to knocking out.

Its still a little unfair to grade with pure fighting ability. Do you seperate the sex's, weight catagories. Then you start bringing other rules in to stop the big brawlers that know little about the style all becoming black belts ;)

[Covaliufan]

If a "big brawler" can tap out black belts, he deserves a black belt. I personally don't believe anyone, no matter how big or strong, can tap out a purple belt or higher without some kind of grappling experience. If he does judo or sombo or wrestling or whatever, and can beat a black belt, it's silly not to say that his effectiveness is equal or better to a bjj black belt.

You raise valid points as to size issues. Tournaments tend to have both open sections and weight classes, and anyone who's wrestled in high school knows the difference weight can make. However, it's not fair to give significant slack to someone for being small, or a woman (though I'd argue that the two issues aren't separate, it's not being a woman that's the issue, but weight and muscle mass).

The point of bjj isn't knowing a lot of techniques, or technical perfection for its own sake: the point is to be able to effectively use grappling technique on a resisting opponent. It is harder for a little guy to move up the ranks, and requires more effort, but it can be and is done. I'm 5'6" myself, only 150 pounds, and would be insulted if I was judged on a different track than my fellow beginners at 200 pounds. My teacher is a purple belt who recently weighed in at an amateur boxing match at 112 pounds; he beat the crap out of me when we last rolled. Try telling him that he should be graded differently than others.

[pgm316]

If the big brawler isn't as good at BBJ as yourself with technique, but can make you tap becaue of weight and power. Who should be graded higher?

[Covaliufan]

You don't grade based on individual match ups like that. If your big brawler consistently taps out white belts, and I don't, than he should be graded higher. If I can tap out blues a decent amount of the time, and he can tap them out more often (and can tap me out) , but has no chance against purples, than we're both blues, but I'd consider him above me.

Fortunately, the technique in bjj does work. If your brawler is depending on only strength and size, I can put in the hours and get better and beat him. However, if he trains as hard as I do, it may be that he'll always be better than me.

[blackbelt_judoj]

Isn't a belt just there to hold up your trousers? When I go into a judo comp i don't worry about the colour of the belt my opponent is wearing. Two reasons for this:-

1. In a comp we wear either a red or white belt...no help there,

2. As soon as you grip someone you know how good they are from the way they move etc so i adjust my style accordingly. Who cares what colour the belt is?

[Alex_JHH]

I train for myself, and to benefit myself. And I never look down on people who are wearing a white belt (even though I was until about yesterday lol). I was quite happy with mine, and only really care for gradings as it gives me something to shoot for, and means I can learn more kata (I enjoy them unlike a lot of people it would seem), and techniques. I often spar with higher grades anyway, as I joined at 16, and so I am tall ( 6'1 ). This means that I am often fighting people much superior to me. I see these matches as an oppurtunity to learn, and try to learn something from every match. Likewise, I feel that I'm not looked down on at all, and that is good.

[pseudo999]

I must say, yesterday I had to comfort a girl who cried because she didn't get her belt, and I was pissed at a system that would promote such things. In the end, I essentially told her that I don't give a crap about belts, they don't mean much anyways (in most places, including where I am at), what matters is how hard she works, her persistance, and what's inside her, and her abilities mean more than her belt. And I mentioned that anyone who views belts so highly that they'd change, much less form, their opinions of someone because of it, doesn't really understand martial arts. I've been in all sorts of MA classes, and after a while, I just found belts to be really, really annoying. I do find that two arguments for the belt system for large classes are convincing (see Benefits below). And thus I accept the... not neccessity, but the utility, of the belt system.

Benefits:

a) As an instructor, it's much easier to get a grasp for the approximate knowledge and experience level of a class. Note: I've seen big classes run without a belt system.
b) Gives goals and a sense of organization to a class.

Detrimental effects:

a) Easily, easily, easily abused
b) creates big egos
c) people look "down" on others b/c of belt rank
d) not teaching because of belt color, instead of the student's abilities
e) becomes an extortion racket for schools (pay x amount for every test)
f) misinterpreted as somehow an indication of skill
g) misinterpreted as _the_ goal of martial arts
h) people put too much emotional investment into their belt color
i) though theoretically based upon "knowledge" and/or "skill", it's too easy for that to fall by the wayside, and the system becomes corrupted
j) false sense of security - i.e., I have x belt, therefore I can defend myself
k) dehumanizes (a little, a lot, no matter - it does)

A properly implemented belt ranking system would be alright with me. For me, this means clearly spelling out what a belt means - knowledge and perhaps time spent at the school, and for those lucky enough, skill - and what it does not - everything else. The major caveat to that, and the major reason I find belts so annoying, is that such a system is rare, difficult to maintain, and prone to any of the above at any time.

*deep breath* Ok. Yes, this is a rant. I apologize, for I am writing this with that girl from yesterday in mind, and I'm feeling rather biased at the moment. But, I do hope that I have brought up legitimate points that should be considered, even though I might have stated things badly or repeatedly.

Sincerely,
Tim

[macoda]

i totally agree with you i wish it was like that..

I partially disagree, the belt system realy does have a function,
When you are at a certain level of experience you do an exam,
and you can put on another color belt.
then if you train with other karate schools/styles togeter,
everybody can see each others level of experience,
and when training together adapting to the level of experience.

But I agree with you all that people shouldn't look down on people with a lower ranking belt....

in our karate school sensei and students kneel together at the same time,
and stand up at the same time to put some extra attention to the fact that having more training experience does not make one more important.

//marinus

[Mike O'Leary]

[

But I agree with you all that people shouldn't look down on people with a lower ranking belt....

in our karate school sensei and students kneel together at the same time,
and stand up at the same time to put some extra attention to the fact that having more training experience does not make one more important.

//marinus[/QUOTE]


There is no student more important. Sometimes immature seniors beleive that when they receive respect, it means they are more important, what it means is I respect that you have trained longer.

Karate precepts state that respect is one of the major lessons of the art. Not only kohai respects sempai, but sempai must also respect kohai... this is the "Way of Karate"

Mike O'Leary

[ROokie]

i think gradings etc for gettin the belts puts me under pressure. im like. what if i **** up. and in the stret am i really gunna be wearin my belt?.no

[Mike O'Leary]

i think gradings etc for gettin the belts puts me under pressure. im like. what if i **** up. and in the stret am i really gunna be wearin my belt?.no


Do you think the pressure on the street is less?


Mike O'Leary

[Albert]

Its a sense of pride and confidence by gaining a belt. I guess some people take it to far as a false sense of security or confidence, or skill. And it may be backed up by the people who say 'oh, no he is a black belt, stay the hell away from him'. When in some cases it is true, and some it is nothing but a belt reflecting nothing about your actual skill.

[cal_JJJ]

"But I agree with you all that people shouldn't look down on people with a lower ranking belt...."

"he is a black belt, stay the hell away from him'. When in some cases it is true, and some it is nothing but a belt reflecting nothing about your actual skill."

This is all a lot of blather really that gets kicked around alot. These types only hurt themselves in the long run and either wake up, grow up, get busted up, or drop out. And know matter how much it is discussed, there will always be two sides to every fence.