What is a McDojo??

[KickChick]

Somebody had asked this question on another thread... fortunately for them they were not familiar with such a term....

Here is the definition according to rec.martial-arts Newbie Guide:

"These are usually schools who's sole goal is to part you from your money without ever imparting any realMartial Arts knowledge. These can sometimes be difficult to detect since part
of the successful money-student separation is to convince the student thatuseful information is, in fact, being taught while devising ever more ways toimplement the money-student separation.
This separation is often achieved by having fee after fee after fee and required expenditures on and on and on. For instance, schools that requireyou to buy only their branded uniforms and gear, require you to sign long contracts, have no "move refund" option in their contract, or high-pressure sales pitches. Another common tactic is to have numerous belt test requirements and sub-ranks, all with a fee, non-refundable if the student"flunks" his test. An example would be a school which has students ranked,"Second Stripe, Decided, Green Belt" or similar. These schools may also require weekend training trips.

Besides the red flags listed above, a few other's that may indicate a "McDojo"include: Any school that promises you a Black Belt in under 3 years or routinely produces Black Belts in 2 years. Any school which seems to have overly young or inexperienced experts (usually "Black Belts" or "Dan ranks") -for example a school recently made the news, noteworthy because they had justpromoted a three year old toddler to "Black Belt" and they had a five year oldchild as a 2nd Dan (second degree) "Black Belt."

[Chazz]

Yeah there are a lot of "schools" out there that are like that. Ive noticed a lot of school start out great but as soon as greed, politics, and the idea of loads of money comes into mind then you see, faster promotion, shorter classes, and rates go sky high. You will hind school with loads and loads of black belts and most are real young but none of them have been there for more and 2 -3 years. When you ask them why and how somthing works and why they do it, most say because i was told to do so and leave it at that.

So for anyone in here that hasnt started MA yet check out a school. Look it over in and out. Ask as many questons as you can. If you have a bad feeling, then most likely there is a good reason behind it. Go and hind a place you will like to be at.

[Andrew Green]

I prefer this definition.

McDojo - A successful school that does things in a way that opposes the brainwashing that the person using the term has recieved.

[Falling_link]

McDojo... McDonalds..... i think i see a link there somewhere!

[Greg-VT]

Yeah, a drive though for junk food /forthought

[kempocos]

This started at a site called mcdojo.com it is now know as BULLSHIDO.COM. Here are some more hints

The owner created his own style because he knew better than his instructor. With this they often jump to back belt by promoting them selves to black or higher.

Lists a history that can not be verified , or is proven to be lies

No contact during sparring, or no sparring at all

The very asian sounding name is a mix of CHINESE, JAPANESE, KOREN words that do not mean what the creator ( see first example) says it does

self defense moves are not practiced at full or even half speed.

questioning about techninques relation to reality is met with stern remarks

There are other signs but I think the Idea is coming across.

[47Ronin]

i go to a school like that but got looped into a contract. if anyones interested what style it was developed by chuck norris and i recommend no one do it- chun kuk do. total b.s. brings me to another point dont sign contracts.......

[xubis]

Hmm.. my school only charges £3 for a 1 and a half hour session, but we can by gi from anywhere, there is one kid who is 12, he is a black belt, but he is actually pretty good. We have a few young kids that are brown belts. But my teacher always answers questions and waits behind and lets us question what we are doing..

Am I training with a McDojo?

[informah]

i like my school

70 bones for 3 months of as many classes as u wanna go to

[pgm316]

To me, McDojo means high prices & false flashy image, but doesn't acheive this in a cost effective or realistic way!

[Freeform]

McDonalds - Pretends to sell food.

McDojo - Pretends to teach MA.

Col

[Kwan Jang]

-I would consider any school that fakes it's own credentials (sometimes would take some research to know this). Waters down the standards, espescially for a certain fee. (opposed to altering requirements due to physical challeges. :ex. I don't think anyone would deny that Bill Wallace was worthy of his black belt, but due to his knee injury, he may have trouble passing a non-modified rank test on techniques on his right leg). IMO, a school being good at the business side is a plus, rather than a minus. As long as they do not compromise their standdards. Since tthe quality of your advanced students and black belt graduates IS your product in martial art instruction, sacrificing this is a horrible and self-defeating mistake. I have read posts speaking of high tuition or many students as a sign of poor quality. Though I know cases where some schools do have high prices and a lot of students have less than impressive results in terms of technique, it would seem that many of these people must be getting some value from this for any lasting success. The comparrison is like saying that top universities like Oxford, Stanford, and Yale must be inferior to the local community college because the Univ. because they charge more and have more students. This to me is ridiculous.

[Combatant]

McDojo-

Loads of black belts
Loads of black belts that should not be there
Lots of branding/marketing
Lots of dosh needed to participate


ALl of this means that even after a long time of training you will still be no tougher mentally or physically then when you started. Isnt this afterall what learning to fight is all about?

[cmaauk]

There are quite a few of these around. I got a group of guys knocking on my door last year asking if i was interested in learining karate (obviously could not read as my Association is advertised in big letters on the back of my car!)

Anyway i listened to them and questioned them in full. They told me i had to pay £20 up front to reserve my place and then lessons were £5 / hour.

I declined but then went to the club to watch a lesson. Didn't see any Black Belts, just a brown and a guy with a black & white belt on. I asked him what Dan grade he was, he seemed very nervous at this and just said "i'm the Instructor". He gave me the phone number of his boss. So a rang it and to cut a long story short he was actaully Green belt!.

Now that is a McDojo!

Needless to say the club did not stay open long, but it did move to another location.

[hongkongfuey]

a guy with a black & white belt on

Black and white belts - I have also seen used before in other styles to represent an instructor (of undefined grade). Personally think this is a bit of a cheat, as many students will believe they are getting taught by a black belt, when they may be many grades lower.

(Not that belt colours really matter, but that is another discussion entirely ;))

[cmaauk]

Very well said my friend.:D

[YODA]

Hi Andy

I've had these guys at my door too - offered to "do a bit" with him in my garage - he was off before you could say "non refundable 12 month contract must buy a Gi for 2nd class and all your equipment must be bought from us". :D

[pgm316]

Originally posted by Freeform
McDonalds - Pretends to sell food.

McDojo - Pretends to teach MA.

Col

I could live off McDonalds, maybe I should find myself a McDojo! :D

[Adam]

I'm training in a McDojo it seems, but it's very close, the people are friendly and we toss around each other a lot. I can live with it.

[YODA]

Originally posted by pgm316
I could live off McDonalds, maybe I should find myself a McDojo! :D


Me too mate - me too :D

[waya]

So Black Belts are going to be the new Happy Meal toy? :eek:

I've had this all wrong from the start then! :D lol

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by YODA
Hi Andy

I've had these guys at my door too - offered to "do a bit" with him in my garage - he was off before you could say "non refundable 12 month contract must buy a Gi for 2nd class and all your equipment must be bought from us". :D

LOL, I can picture that.

Yoda with a glazed look in his eye, drool dripping from his chin, nervous tic twitching.

In the background, the girls are sharpening the knives and blowing the sacrificial saxaphone. :D

[YODA]

LOL!

Ain't it da truth :D

[Bon]

lol, GKR... biggest. McDojo. EVAR!

[YODA]

Careful there Bon - naming styles.

You never know - one of their instructors may suddenly appear and threaten legal action if you dare to question their authenticity etc.

[cmaauk]

Cautionary words indeed from Master Yoda. :D

[kempocos]

we use the balck belts with white stripes in the KIDS program for the junior blackbelts. Then when the person becomes 15 - 16 years of age they then work through the ADULT program with the stripe change thru the KYU ranks. This helps seperate the teachings of Preassure Points and Joint manipulation . Also I do not beleve that Kids should learn along side adult studnets, drills sparring does no one any good in that type of mixed class.

AS ALWAYS IMHO

[pknox]

Interesting. While a lot of the other points hold true, to me, the main thing that distinguishes a McDojo from other commercial schools is that it's sole purpose is to make a profit -- even at the expense of quality of the instruction or the welfare of the students. Usually, but not always, McDojos are part of a chain, which is where the McDonald's analogy also starts to shine. I'm sure there are single, non-chain McDojos out there as well, as they all have to start somewhere. Note that this definition does not label all schools that turn a profit as a McDojo -- it's more a function of how they go about doing it.

Usually, you know when you're in one (or more likely, after you have left). If an instructor wants to talk about all of his accomplishments, trophies, etc. but is hesitant to talk about or show you his art, you're probably in a McDojo. If, after you had left a dojo months ago, the instructor calls you trying to convince you to test (and pay a testing fee, naturally), you were most likely in a McDojo. If a significant portion of the curriculum comes of of video, well, you get the idea.

[pknox]

Originally posted by kempocos
we use the balck belts with white stripes in the KIDS program for the junior blackbelts. Then when the person becomes 15 - 16 years of age they then work through the ADULT program with the stripe change thru the KYU ranks. This helps seperate the teachings of Preassure Points and Joint manipulation . Also I do not beleve that Kids should learn along side adult studnets, drills sparring does no one any good in that type of mixed class.

AS ALWAYS IMHO

Kempocos:

Agreed. Also, the stripe helps the adults out too, at tournaments and group trainings and such. I have seen many 15 and 16 year olds who were large enough that I would swear they were adults -- the stripe gives me a cue so that I know what I'm dealing with.

[Knight_Errant]

To those whom it may concern:
As far as I can see, the following are legitimate reasons to leave a club, which could then be termed MCdojo.

1.Bad practice. If you are being asked or, worse, forced, to do something you know is dumb or ineffective, consider leaving. However, remember that everything is a tradeoff and that the ideal club might not be anywhere near you. Don't get caught in the 'so, you think you know better than your instructor' argument. It has no logical merit. If you're not sure, then MAP is an ideal place to ask. Some of the people here do know better than your instructor. Hell, if there is something you don't want to do and he still insists you do it, then YOU know better than he does. Your education, your choice. But remember that it is his club and that he has other students. If it is really incompatible with the way you want to learn, leave.

2. Wierd stuff. This can range from fairly innocuous strange behaviour to more serious incidents. I once read on shotokan planet about an incident where a karate teacher was found to have been abusing his underage students. This shocked me as indeed it should. I, for once, am stone cold serious.

3.Financial malpractice. Many MCdojos are perfectly capable of taking your money and leaving you with nothing. If this is happening, then consider leaving. Remember about supply and demand though. If you aren't sure you're paying a realistic price, ask. I'm sure MAPpers will not mind advising you.

If you suspect a more serious infringment, then report it as an honest citizen.

If you are studying karate, I point you towards www.24fightingchickens.com in the same way I would recommend a good book. Even if you aren't, it's worth a look. This site changed the way I look at combat sports and at life. Sites such as Mcdojo.com offer a good laugh but are a little scant on more sober reflection and technical advice.

I hope this post comes as something of a relief to those who were dreading the day when I chose to contribute to this thread :)

[Andy Murray]

Who are you and what have you done with knight Errant? :D

[YODA]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
Who are you and what have you done with knight Errant? :D

I think he left his PC logged into MAP and his Dad posted :D

[Knight_Errant]

Not true. My dad has no interest in any things Martial arty and in fact has referred to me as a 'karate fairy' on more than one occasion :) It was K girl's evil robot :D

[Cain]

Come off yer drugs KE :D

|Cain|

[Knight_Errant]

But I don't want to :D
(seriously, I am now a drug free operation:))

[Sweeet]

Hmm...

McDojo...

..... would you like fries with your blackbelt?

[New Guy]

McDojo-

Loads of black beltsQuestion: my school have been around for a long time, according to my instructor, it has been around for more than 30 years. Well normally black belts only goes to black belt training, some trains with normal class. I see around 6 ~ 8 black belts at the grading. Does that sound like a mcdojo? Is there too many BBs?

[Sever]

I wouldn't say 6-8 black belts is too many, especially if the club's been open for 30-something years. If it had, I'd be more concerned if there were no black belts!
The thing that will distinguish between mcdojo blackbelts and earned blackbelts in a long-standing club is simple: skill. Are their techniques crisp and clean? Are they good in sparring? Your profile doesn't say what art you study, but if the blackbelts there are good exponents of that style, I wouldn't worry about there being too many. If, on the other hand, they suck at everything I mentioned, worry

[KickChick]

Question: my school have been around for a long time, according to my instructor, it has been around for more than 30 years. Well normally black belts only goes to black belt training, some trains with normal class. I see around 6 ~ 8 black belts at the grading. Does that sound like a mcdojo? Is there too many BBs?


Good Question .... is there such a thing a "too many black belts"?

Our school has been around for 15 years and we have triple that amount. Just may be a sign of a very good school with dedicated black belts who wish to continue their learning & training.


There are those schools which I mentioned above wherein you get your black belt in 2 years and chances are you leave the school and discontinue training because now you are a black belt. :bang:

[OBCT]

I'd say a McDojo teaches you the syllabus of their organisation, step by step, for example: Do this this and this and you get a yellow belt, gradings are every three months. They don't fray from their style and add in ideas or principles from others, they don't teach you the principles behind the art, are expensive, well advertised, and often claim to have 'secret/deadly' technques.

[oni_sensei]

All these points are well and truly valid, but I'd like to point out that there is a fine line between a school simply out for money, and a school with a simply incompentant instructor, who may not be out for money at all.

Such is the case with my TKD school. I'm no longer a member, but I'm training there for an upcoming tournament and seminar in the area. My instructor does know her stuff, but she just has a rather unsatisfactory way about putting it into practise. She never lets the assistant instructors (1st-2nd Dans) take the class, nor is she really open to suggestions.

However, I think the most obvious sign of a McDojo is a lack of affiliation with a recognised organisation, and the contracts. I understand that there are many, many high-class independant schools around, but a lot of McDojos tend to be independant as well, from my experience.

You just have to think about what YOU want, in the end, though.

[Poop-Loops]

I could live off McDonalds, maybe I should find myself a McDojo! :D

No, you could not. I work at McDonald's, and I get a free meal every day I work there. After 3 months of working there I feel sick eating their food, and I've gained 5lbs. =/

PL

[NeonxBurst]

......ick McDonalds....... PL would you please explain to them what's in that ...."food"
Versus what's in the angusy goodness of a home grown cow.

Wait a second that sounds like a McDojo Idea.

Do you want fake meat, or real angus?

[svadhyaya]

Do McDojo's really start legal proceedings if you speak out about them? What if what you say is plainly true, such as someone teaching wearing a black belt is actually much lower grade? Don't they have to prove you are incorrect or end up paying their and your legal fees?

I have a friend in what I think is a McDojo who teaches under an assumed black belt and whenever he talks about his art now every sentence seems to start with "When I'm instructing..." or "I tell my students...". I don't have the heart to burst his bubble.

[Dr.Syn]

McDojo: A place whose sign offers expert instruction in Karate.Judo.Kung Fu and Ninjitsu, and the lone senior Sensei is almost 25 years old.

[Mark_Campbell]

i think the real question is how to deal with mcdojo`s , after all if they could be gotten rid of it would only be good for all martial arts

[gorodish]

The www.24fightingchickens.com site has closed. Shame, from what I read on other forums, (after a quick google) it would have interesting.

[d33pthought]

what about schools that are just plain terrible? They might not overcharge, but they're teaching moves that are allegedly wonderful, that in fact are more likely to injure the student than any attacker.

[cybermonk]

i think the real question is how to deal with mcdojo`s , after all if they could be gotten rid of it would only be good for all martial arts

I could think of a method which was very popular centuries ago but I am affraid it would be illegal now in most 1st world countries :cry:

[kiaiki]

IMHO most Mc Dojos aren't run mainly for money - it's for the 'SUPERSIZE MY EGO' benefit of the Instructor. Other characterics as given above:

How DO they get insurance?? Surely that's what will eventually make sure they get their chips!

[Dr.Syn]

[How DO they get insurance?? Surely that's what will eventually make sure they get their chips![/QUOTE]


How do idiots who get 12 points on their drivers license get their privledges restored??? Probably from the same company.....

[New Guy]

Good Question .... is there such a thing a "too many black belts"?

Our school has been around for 15 years and we have triple that amount. Just may be a sign of a very good school with dedicated black belts who wish to continue their learning & training.


There are those schools which I mentioned above wherein you get your black belt in 2 years and chances are you leave the school and discontinue training because now you are a black belt. :bang:Well my instructor told us (colorbelts) about being a black belt: it would take 3, 4, 5 or 6 years, depend how hard and frequeny you train, and you must earn the belt, not just pay for them. I have seen some black belt grading, they do have to break some boards and spar with black belts, as well as doing some randomly picked Junior Pattern(s) perfectly. All blackbelts and instructors that I have seen have very good technique, very clean and strong.

From this point of view, I believed that they are not "McDojo" and they teaches the real art.

However, from reading stuff in here, there are quite a few things that made me worry: they kind of got rib of the korean traditions, that the art become more Australian, their banner has an Aust. flag, not many Korean writtings, and such. They still use some Korean words, not as much as I expected. I believe it is a derive of ITF as I looked at the uniforms, patterns, etc. There are many dojos spread around three big cities in Australia, as long as you live in one of those cities, there is always a dojo within 20 minutes of driving from your home. There is one Master instructor who is the founder of the whole thing, then there is a Chief instructor for each city. They all drives a 'nice' car, one of them is a Skyline R-34! The other one's are usually Jeeps, but still look quite new. The first two lession cost $20. Monthly fee is paid and you can train at any gym. If you decide to join then you must buy the uniform from them, they do offer pay by installment if necessary though... there is a grading fee for each grading and a new belt cost $9. Belt system is the same as ITF I guess.

From that point of view, it does sound like a McDojo...


P.S. 6~8 BBs is just the one's that I have seen and reconised, but there are more in my city and around the same for other two cities...

[lowblows]

I was (bows his head in shame) the membership director for the King of the McDojo. It took me a few months to learn the ropes, and figure out what a scum bag the owner was. Of course, I quit training there and quit working there.

So to recap what others have said and add my own two cents in my typical tongue-in-cheek way (with a little help from Jeff Foxworthy):

If your head instructor still lives with his mother, you might be in a McDojo.

If your head instructor's voice hasn't fully changed yet, and his ki-ai sounds like a Slim Whitman recording, you might be in a McDojo.

If your head instructor brags that he was the number one ranked contender (that means he was the #2 ranked guy overall and lost to Better Guy), you might be in a McDojo.

If you have to sign a three-year contract or pay three times the monthly rate, you might be in a McDojo.

If the introductary lessons are taught by someone wearing a cool Master's Club uniform but no belt, you might be in a McDojo.

If the membership director is the hottest woman you have ever seen in your life, you might be in a McDojo.

If you are asked for your social security number or given a credit application, you might be in a McDojo.

If you take the free lesson and HAVE to sign up THAT day in order to save money because the price is about to go up (or any other excuse), you might be in a McDojo.

If after three months and your yellow belt, you can make regular contact (blocking with your face does not count) with the black belts you spar against, you might be in a McDojo.

If you never see any blood, bruises, you might be in a McDojo. (Accidents happen even in the best of schools.)

If your style has a person's name in larger or a more prominant font than the style, you might be in a McDojo.

If your head instructor has cheesy pictures with movie star martial artists and none with his (former) head instructor, you might be in a McDojo.

If you head instructor tells and retells stories about his interactions with celebrities, you might be in a McDojo.

If your head instructor has been promoted by someone he has promoted, you might be in a McDojo.

If your head instructor trades in his Lexus, BMW or Jaguar every year, you might be in a McDojo.

If your head instructor has been in the martial arts for over 35 years, but his business is only 5 years old, you might be in a McDojo.
(Either he has had other schools file for bankruptcy or he is counting in dog years)

If your school can teach you how "to kick ass," you might be in a McDojo.

If your school teaches "the only martial art you will ever need" you might be in a McDojo.

If your school teaches "secret techniques," you might be in a McDojo.

If your school teaches high kicks during self defense classes, you might be in a McDojo.

If your instructors wear their cups on the outside, you might be in a McDojo.
(okay, i made that one up.)

If your instructors only demonstrate techinques on the pretty female students, you might be in a McDojo.

If you find yourself saying your head instructor's name more times than your own in a given day, you might be in a McDojo.

If your school offers a weekend self defense class for women, a post 9-11 survival day or any other quick fix, you might be in a McDojo.

If your head instructor speaks English fluently and can't pronounce the technique in its native language, you might be in a McDojo.

If the membership director is paid on commission, you might be in a McDojo.

If your school a) has contract as mentioned above and b) SELLS those contracts for quick cash, you might be in a McDojo.

If after six months of training, you have gained twenty pounds and are not pregnant with sextuplets, you might be in a McDojo.

If you are always encouraged and never corrected, you might be in a McDojo.

If you are told that was "perfect" technique and you have been training for less than 200 years in this and previous lives, you might be in a McDojo.

If you "one of the best students I have ever trained," you might be in a McDojo.

If you are "an absolute natural" during your introductary lesson, you might be in a McDojo.

If you train at a school whose owner promotes a major NASKA tournament, you might be in a McDojo.

If your head instructor or dojo owner talks to you about investing when he takes his schools public, you might be in a McDojo.

If your head instructor never teaches class, you might be in a McDojo.

If, after reading this, you still have any questions about a McDojo, you might consider training in a McDojo.

[Athleng Nordic]

I refer to these as "Family Fun Activity Centers". They are like the apendex, serve no real fuction, take up useful space, and could get you killed!

[Knight_Errant]

Like I say- three reasons I'd walk out of a school; screwing me over financially, teaching bad material and forcing me to do wierd stuff like chanting the dojo kun and beating the hell out of complete newbies (I sometimes do this by accident and feel really guilty about it for weeks though- enthusiasm is a terrible thing...)

[eckythump]

Lowblows
quote
"If the membership director is the hottest woman you have ever seen in your life, you might be in a McDojo."

what school is this?..............I am thinking of crosstraining :)

[bcullen]

I was (bows his head in shame) the membership director for the King of the McDojo. It took me a few months to learn the ropes, and figure out what a scum bag the owner was. Of course, I quit training there and quit working there.

So to recap what others have said and add my own two cents in my typical tongue-in-cheek way (with a little help from Jeff Foxworthy):

If your head instructor still lives with his mother, you might be in a McDojo.

If your head instructor's voice hasn't fully changed yet, and his ki-ai sounds like a Slim Whitman recording, you might be in a McDojo.

If your head instructor brags that he was the number one ranked contender (that means he was the #2 ranked guy overall and lost to Better Guy), you might be in a McDojo.

If you have to sign a three-year contract or pay three times the monthly rate, you might be in a McDojo.

If the introductary lessons are taught by someone wearing a cool Master's Club uniform but no belt, you might be in a McDojo.

If the membership director is the hottest woman you have ever seen in your life, you might be in a McDojo.

If you are asked for your social security number or given a credit application, you might be in a McDojo.

If you take the free lesson and HAVE to sign up THAT day in order to save money because the price is about to go up (or any other excuse), you might be in a McDojo.

If after three months and your yellow belt, you can make regular contact (blocking with your face does not count) with the black belts you spar against, you might be in a McDojo.

If you never see any blood, bruises, you might be in a McDojo. (Accidents happen even in the best of schools.)

If your style has a person's name in larger or a more prominant font than the style, you might be in a McDojo.

If your head instructor has cheesy pictures with movie star martial artists and none with his (former) head instructor, you might be in a McDojo.

If you head instructor tells and retells stories about his interactions with celebrities, you might be in a McDojo.

If your head instructor has been promoted by someone he has promoted, you might be in a McDojo.

If your head instructor trades in his Lexus, BMW or Jaguar every year, you might be in a McDojo.

If your head instructor has been in the martial arts for over 35 years, but his business is only 5 years old, you might be in a McDojo.
(Either he has had other schools file for bankruptcy or he is counting in dog years)

If your school can teach you how "to kick ass," you might be in a McDojo.

If your school teaches "the only martial art you will ever need" you might be in a McDojo.

If your school teaches "secret techniques," you might be in a McDojo.

If your school teaches high kicks during self defense classes, you might be in a McDojo.

If your instructors wear their cups on the outside, you might be in a McDojo.
(okay, i made that one up.)

If your instructors only demonstrate techinques on the pretty female students, you might be in a McDojo.

If you find yourself saying your head instructor's name more times than your own in a given day, you might be in a McDojo.

If your school offers a weekend self defense class for women, a post 9-11 survival day or any other quick fix, you might be in a McDojo.

If your head instructor speaks English fluently and can't pronounce the technique in its native language, you might be in a McDojo.

If the membership director is paid on commission, you might be in a McDojo.

If your school a) has contract as mentioned above and b) SELLS those contracts for quick cash, you might be in a McDojo.

If after six months of training, you have gained twenty pounds and are not pregnant with sextuplets, you might be in a McDojo.

If you are always encouraged and never corrected, you might be in a McDojo.

If you are told that was "perfect" technique and you have been training for less than 200 years in this and previous lives, you might be in a McDojo.

If you "one of the best students I have ever trained," you might be in a McDojo.

If you are "an absolute natural" during your introductary lesson, you might be in a McDojo.

If you train at a school whose owner promotes a major NASKA tournament, you might be in a McDojo.

If your head instructor or dojo owner talks to you about investing when he takes his schools public, you might be in a McDojo.

If your head instructor never teaches class, you might be in a McDojo.

If, after reading this, you still have any questions about a McDojo, you might consider training in a McDojo.

That sums it up very well, I've seen just about everyone of those at some point in my MA past (sometimes at the all same place).

[glenchuy]

noteworthy because they had justpromoted a three year old toddler to "Black Belt" and they had a five year oldchild as a 2nd Dan (second degree) "Black Belt."

holy crap! really? :eek:

[KickChick]

holy crap! really? :eek:


Well that was quoted directly from the "rec.martial-arts Newbie Guide" concerning the def of mcdojo. Unfortunately I cannot substantiate that.

However, Koos Self Defense has proclaimed on its site .... (and quite proudly I might add) http://ksdi.net/wybb.htm , as producing the world's youngest martial art black belts..... showing their youngest at 5 years old!

[glenchuy]

from the link you provided:

As explained throughout this web site, Koo Self Defense is unlike other martial arts styles or systems, the emphasis is not on learning and perfecting many forms (katas), techniques, blocks, stances, sparring and so forth <snip>

As part of Koo Self Defense continuous evolution, all colored belt tests were eliminated in 1996 except for the black belt test which was designed to be the most objective, demanding and toughest test in the world!

:eek: a MA school that doesn't aim to teach and perfect forms... interesting.

[G_Man]

The dojo I train at charges $ 10 a month for two classes a week. The lineage can be traced back to the originator in Okinawa. Getting ready to test this Sat. for 4th kyu. It’s costing me $5 and a lot of sweat. My head sensei was just promoted to 5th Dan after 23 years of training. The facts speak for themselves. They teach for the love of the art.

[KickChick]

:eek: a MA school that doesn't aim to teach and perfect forms... interesting.


... yet another interesting thing is Koos comments regarding CKD "currently they have an accelerated program to get to Black Belts" while it seems he too is doing the exact same thing.

G_Man .... your school is among the minority of schools here in the States I would assume... and you can't make a judgement call on a school just because it is inexpensive. There are very good quality schools/dojos which are run by instructors who may not have any other outside income and do need to charge in order to pay the rent/utilities, buy equipment and pay other instructors.

[kiaiki]

Price and value have little correlation in MA in my experience. Had excellent classes for peanuts and rubbish which cost a fortune. I would add 'McStyle' and 'McOrganisation' to the list. There's nothing worse than assuming a teacher holding a grade from a mainstream organisation will be good - and then reality bites.

I even had one 'reputable' organisation tout for my membership and offer to transfer my Dan grade - for a mere £100, no grading session, just gime the money! As Groucho Marks once said: ' I refuse to join a club that would have ME as a member'! Particularly with no grading test. :)

[KickChick]

Price and value have little correlation in MA in my experience. Had excellent classes for peanuts and rubbish which cost a fortune.


... would that be 'visa-versa' too?

Not to say that "you get what you pay for" ...but I'd rather pay more for excellance than pay nothing for rubbish :D

[kiaiki]

Yep. I've travelled thousands of miles for one class and never even considered the cost. I've also had a free class from a visiting Japanese sensei and every minute is etched forever in my mind - he was awesome! Sometimes, though, you only know the real value of an experience after some time has elapsed. Guess we should all wish for an open mind and an open wallet!

[Shortfuse]

those signs dont HAVE to mean mcdojo