Christianity and old/new testament

[Moosey]

I hear a lot of Christians justify various aspects of their faith by reference to the old testament but surely if you're a christian, don't you believe that the new testament completely supplants the old one?

As far as I understand it, Judaism, Christianity and Islam are just different points along the same timeline. Jews believe in (the hebrew version of) the old testament. Christians believe that Jesus came along and cleared up all the inconsistensies by giving the real deal straight from his dad. Then Muslims believe that Mohammed was spoken to by God who supplanted Jesus' rules with the new improved version. Which religion you subscribe to just depends where along the timeline you believe the real information straight-from-the-horse's-mouth was given.

So it confuses me when Christians quote the old testament as setting down their laws and moral standards. Surely the old testament is exactly that: old. It's since been supplanted by the new and improved and theoretically more accurate set of guidance from Jesus. Surely when the old and new testaments disagree, Christians should fall on the side of the new testament (hence being Christians and not orthodox Jews?)

So aren't the ultra-right-wing people who justify the death penalty etc by referring to the Old Testament's warlike God actually failing in their supposed support of Jesus and his more forgiveness-not-vengeance based rules?

[Strafio]

Some Christians believe that Jesus upheld the OT law but said that even though we'd all broken it and deserved hell that he'd forgive us if we said sorry. So anyone who hasn't said "sorry" yet, I think some of the more extreme one's don't even consider them human... :confused:

The thing with the Bible is that there's so many possible interpretations that there's always some people that are going to abuse it.

[Gary]

I know a lot of christians will happily quote the old bible when they want to argue about homosexuality and other issues, particularly Leviticus, but are happy to ignore that Leviticus also condemns many other things that modern Christians do, including getting haircuts, eating shellfish, wearing fabrics made from two different fibers, and planting two crops in a single field.
I think the bible is translated to fit the needs of the people who use it, so nothing new there.

[Johnno]

Then Muslims believe that Mohammed was spoken to by God who supplanted Jesus' rules with the new improved version.
I don't want to derail the thread, but I think I should point out that this isn't quite correct. My understanding is that Mohammed saw Islam as the religion which God had given to the Arabs, and as such it was complementary to Judaism and Christianity, not an 'improvement' or a replacement for either of them.

Obviously Muslims don't believe that Jesus was the 'son' of God (or God incarnate) like Christians do, but he is one of the most important prophets of the Islamic faith.

[Moosey]

I don't want to derail the thread, but I think I should point out that this isn't quite correct. My understanding is that Mohammed saw Islam as the religion which God had given to the Arabs, and as such it was complementary to Judaism and Christianity, not an 'improvement' or a replacement for either of them.

Obviously Muslims don't believe that Jesus was the 'son' of God (or God incarnate) like Christians do, but he is one of the most important prophets of the Islamic faith.
Yeah, I guess I was being kinda flippant there. My point was that each are connected yet each believe in the teachings of a distinct prophet or system supposedly to the exclusion of the others (i.e. where the systems disagree, each should side with their own main prophet or guidelines really).

[Nick K]

Moosey.....
You're not expecting a reasoned answer, are you (puts on flame proof jacket and gets out sausages)

[aikiMac]

So it confuses me when Christians quote the old testament as setting down their laws and moral standards.
Jesus quoted the OT as setting down his laws and his standards.
Jesus taught the OT in church (synagogue) every chance he got.
Jesus lived by the OT.

Your confusion arises because you don't know either the OT or the NT. That's not entirely your fault, what with Trinity Broadcasing Company spewing trash all around the globe, and certain Presidents and celebrities claiming the name of religion without doing the practice of religion.

[Gary]

Of course Jesus lived by the OT. He was jewish.

[slipthejab]

It was so much simpler when the Romans controlled things...

What he doesn't believe us?!? To the lions with him!

What he didn't fall in line?!? Into the gladiator pit with him!

Not so much mincing about... they just got stuff done.

:D

[thepunisher]

It was so much simpler when the Romans controlled things...

What he doesn't believe us?!? To the lions with him!

What he didn't fall in line?!? Into the gladiator pit with him!


:D

Yes, true. What, Jewish aka Jesus ? Nail him onto the cross.

What, an escaped gladiator and slave named Spartacus ? Yes, nail him and all of his 3,000 fellow gladiators to the cross as well.
;) :D

Christian

[slipthejab]

Hmm...seems they'd have got on well with that Moses fella.:D

[firecoins]

from Monty Python's Life of Brian

Reg: All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?

[Sparkle]

Some Christians believe that Jesus upheld the OT law but said that even though we'd all broken it and deserved hell that he'd forgive us if we said sorry. So anyone who hasn't said "sorry" yet, I think some of the more extreme one's don't even consider them human... :confused:

The thing with the Bible is that there's so many possible interpretations that there's always some people that are going to abuse it.

To the first statement . . . . what?! If you find a Christian who doesn't feel somebody is even human because they haven't . . . in your words . . . . said " sorry " yet . . . then they aren't the people to be looking to to judge anything by. You guys really need to just study the bible a bit so you can make your own judgments on things instead of taken in a bewildered interpretation by people ( or yourselves ) who haven't even read the bible.

To the second statement, I don't believe there are endless interpretations to the bible. It's pretty much straight foward in its message and moral code.

And to answer the question about Jesus, the New Testament, and the Old Testament, " I did not come to end the old law, but to fulfill it " . . . and that's straight from Jesus' own mouth. So I don't think the old testament is to be cast aside at all, we just don't live by the more extreme rules due to what Jesus told us to do.

[tekkengod]

.......

[polecat63]

I know a lot of christians will happily quote the old bible when they want to argue about homosexuality and other issues, particularly Leviticus, but are happy to ignore that Leviticus also condemns many other things that modern Christians do, including getting haircuts, eating shellfish, wearing fabrics made from two different fibers, and planting two crops in a single field.
I think the bible is translated to fit the needs of the people who use it, so nothing new there.


Actually homosexuality is condemned in the new testament as well (Romans and 1Corinthians come to mind). Since the laws set down in leviticus were for the Jewish people and Christians are gentiles, I don't see your point.

Reading the bible helps in discussion ON the Bible. Just a thought.

[Sparkle]

Can I ask what good comes out of homosexuality? Isn't it a great way to spread disease, and all the homosexuals I see all seem really drawn and unhealthy. ( Note I said the ones I see ) Or they just seem to have something off about them. Sorry if I offend any homosexuals out there, no harm intended, but if you declare yourself as something, no matter what it is you have to be ready to be questioned about it, and maybe take some crap .

[wrydolphin]

Obvously its got something going for it, evolutionarily speaking. Humans have been practicing it since the dawn of time in all cultures globally. There are links to genes that increase female fertility. And its also common in the animal world, especially in what, I suspect, is our closest extant relative, the bonobo. They exhibit social structure that is closer to our own then chimps do. They also exhibit rampant bisexuality. Down right horny little beasties.

[Kwajman]

OMG!! Two crops in a single field!!!!!!!!

[wrydolphin]

OMG!! Two crops in a single field!!!!!!!!
OH, THE HUMANITY! :love: :D

[Taliar]

I don't think the Jew's accept all of the OT, think its only the first 5 books that they stick to (maybe wrong though). Genesis through Deuteronomy, these books were writtern as guidance for the Jewish Nation and as an account of their early history, the other books of the OT were actually an account of what happened during large parts of jewish history togehter with lessons and warnings about the future.

Early Christians didn't have the NT as we know it know as most of it was writtern after Jesus death, however as Jesus taught both Jews and Gentiles (none Jews) from the text of the OT Christianity uses both sections of the bible.

Not to sure about Islam although I know they have great respect for the prophets Jesus and Moses.

[Kwajman]

Can I ask what good comes out of homosexuality? Isn't it a great way to spread disease, and all the homosexuals I see all seem really drawn and unhealthy.


Actually females between the ages of 15 to 19 have the highest rate of STD's in any age group, male or female, gay or straight.

That or they are just trying to scare away guys who are attracted to girls in that age group.

[polecat63]

Actually females between the ages of 15 to 19 have the highest rate of STD's in any age group, male or female, gay or straight.

That or they are just trying to scare away guys who are attracted to girls in that age group.


If you take Chlamydia into account then you are probably correct. ALthough that figure for women is most likely higher since young females actually get screened for it and males don't. I suppose that would go for other STD's as well.

The majority of reported STD cases are in the 25 and under group as well. If you take Gonorrhea for instance 64% of males that test positive are gay or bi-sexual. AID's is also much more prevalant in the gay male population and higher in straight males then in young girls. Over three times more gay men contract AID's over their hetorosexual counterparts.

I assume the purpose of your post was to imply that homosexuality does not increase the propensity of/for STD's. That assumption would be incorrect and totally off topic.

[Gajah Silat]

Actually, worldwide around 60% of cases of HIV are female. Wordwide, HIV is predominantly a heterosexual problem the highest amount of cases being in South Africa and India amongst heterosexuals.

Also more importantly, HIV is not AIDS although it may lead to it.

So, does this mean that, comparitively, there is a higher proportion of homosexuals in the US than other countries? Polecats figures seem to suggest this.

There is a world oustide America you know :bang: :eek:

Jesus and homophobia in one thread!

Wasn't tolerance, a large part of Jesus's teachings?

And before you start, I'm straight and married and non-religious!

[aikiMac]

Wasn't tolerance, a large part of Jesus's teachings?
That depends. Tolerant of whom?

[Gajah Silat]

Kinsley conducted an experiment, exposing males to homosexual pornography. There were two groups.

Those who were vehemently homophobic.

And those who were tolerant or not 'offended' by homosexuality.

He found this. Around 80% of the homophobic group became aroused whist watching the porn, whilst only around 20% of the tolerant group did.

It's a case of 'the lady doth protest too much' with some! :eek:

Surely, taking an anti-homosexual stance would force most of the clergy to retire?

Fundamentalists of all sorts will use religious text to persecute minorities and commit atrocities.

There's no 'fun' in fundamentalism :love: