The Horse Stance

[Desired Effect]

other than doing horse stance with burning candles under you, what other ways can you train your muscles to get the lowest and best positioned horse stance, is it also to do with flexability. and might i be able to do squats in the gym to make my legs stronger? what have you guys found?

[JSun]

Watch your stance in a mirror. Have a ninety degree angle between the hamstrings and calves. I don't think squats have helped my horse stance per say, but they have improved my overall leg strength. I think just using lower stances in my forms has significantly improved my ki mah jah se.

[Desired Effect]

thanks man, its just that i'm trying to get lower with a wider stance, and think i need to be more flexible in the groin area.

[Grippereeno]

I would say flexibility is a factor.... but not a huge one a bigger one would be isometric leg strength but everyone is different. If when in/goin into horse stance you feel tight around a certain area then maybe for you that is what is limiting your ability to get low so increasing flexibility in these areas may aid in that.

[inthespirit]

here is a link to good articel on this subject, posted before by Middleway..

http://www.cbox.cz/baguaquan/mabu-en.htm

[AirNick]

This is an interesting topic actually. How does everybody do their horse stance?

Personally I like a really wide stance like KJN Sung Jins

[Grippereeno]

I was for a while trying to get low in a wide stance but was finding it difficult to get towards 90 degrees i found it easier to narrow my stance (not by much) and bend at the knees more which allowed me to get lower.. however as i improve/get more flexible i aim to have a wide 90 degrees stance

[Desired Effect]

ye, nick thats the kind of stance i'm going for, a wide low stance as it looks alot better when practicing forms, and the fluidity fits when going from horse stance to long stance.

[Mari]

A good way to practice your horse stance is by putting those large excercise balls on your lower back and slowly lowering your stance so the ball rolls up the center of your back until your theighs are parralel with the floor.

i find a low horse stance to be less challenging than a long front stance... but i noticed that in my horse stance, my toes are pointed slightly out when they are supposed to be facing forward! O_o... its tricky! that's what I'm trying to work on now.^^

[djrakun]

Hi all,

I've been starting my mornings with a 3 minute horse stance while my pc boots up in the morning at work, in preparation for a belt test that I have at the beginning of next month. While I obviously have the muscular 'discomfort' during a horse stance, I am also getting what would be categorized as 'pain' thoughout the day. I know it is from the horse stance training because it is the most significant change I have made to my training, and it gets progressively worse every day ( still managable, but I can definitely feel it getting worse).

My legs are usually just slightly more than shoulder width apart, lap level to the ground ( so if you put a staff on your legs it will not roll off, that's how we're told to gauge that we are not cheating ourselves) back straight, and arms slightly bent and extended forward, palms up. I was keeping my feet straight forward but I read on another forum that cheating a bit and pointing your feet outwards can relived some knee strain. So far it hasn't helped much.

So this a contribution to the topic instead of just a request for advice, I would disagree that you can't go low enough in a horse stance. It is easier to sit down in a horse stance beyond your quads being parallel to the ground than it is to be level because the tension in your muscles will 'hold you up'. Like a catcher in baseball (another group of people that complain about what i'm pretty much describing here), you can 'rest' at the bottom of a horse stance as long as you keep your weight forward. This cheats your legs and stabilizing muscles of your back from getting the benefit from a good horse stance. And yes, I have considered not going as deep to relieve the knee pain but that kind of defeats the purpose. I'll just have to hold the stance even longer.

FWIW, nothing legal feels as standing up from a long and low horse stance. It is like a shot of cortizone into your pelvis when the blood can flow through your legs again. :cool:

[unknown-KJN]

Interesting spin on reviving an old thread gone dormant.

It sounds like the problem you're having with pain later in the day may be due to lactic acid buildup in the muscle tissue, easily accumulated doing the *holding stance* training you described. If you're unwilling to lay off for a day or two, then you need to do some ballistic movement to offset the buildup. Nothing radical, as slowly lowering and rising in the stance several times before releasing should help (could lessen the *rush* you're sensing as well).

[KSstudent]

Toes straight, hurts knees......toes out, hurts legs......My legs heal faster than my knees, so I point my toes slightly out legs slightly more than sholder width apart.

It seems the kiddos can do it better toes straight. any jase lower than 90 deg, we tend to call "poty jase" (looks like you'r sitin on the toilet)

Alway practice low jase when doing your punches and it gets better with time,

[Quozl]

here is a link to good articel on this subject, posted before by Middleway..

http://www.cbox.cz/baguaquan/mabu-en.htm

For some reason I m not permitted access to this link (I have a "Forbiden" Notice when I try the link).

I am quite interested in this thread as I would like lower stances in Horse stance and I have suffered from knee problems for a while, and thus wnat to do the stance better without injuring my knees.

It would be interesting to have an insight into people's opinions on the advisability of holding horse stance for long period and the potential damage one can do to one's knees in this stance for long periods. It would also be of interest to know how long "too long" might be.

All the best,

Quozl

[ksnsimon]

for strength of horse stance i hold the stance and get a training partner to stand on my legs holding on to my shoulders for balance from here i turn to long stances ensure you push heel out and toes in on longstance so the knee doesnt buckle .

[inthespirit]

For some reason I m not permitted access to this link (I have a "Forbiden" Notice when I try the link).

I am quite interested in this thread as I would like lower stances in Horse stance and I have suffered from knee problems for a while, and thus wnat to do the stance better without injuring my knees.

It would be interesting to have an insight into people's opinions on the advisability of holding horse stance for long period and the potential damage one can do to one's knees in this stance for long periods. It would also be of interest to know how long "too long" might be.

All the best,

Quozl

Yeah, that link does not work any more, if I see that article elsewhere I will post it up.

[Quozl]

Cheers Inthespirit! :)

[inthespirit]

Here it is:

http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/hejinghan-bagua/article?mid=156&next=151&l=a&fid=5

enjoy!

[Quozl]

Very intersting,

many thanks for this Inthespirit.

Quozl

[inthespirit]

No worries Quozl, you may also find the structural info on the following links interesting, there is also some sections specific to mabu/horse stance:

http://www.unleashingfong.com/martialmovement/index.php?title=Aunkai_Methods

http://www.unleashingfong.com/martialmovement/index.php?title=Training_The_Body_For_Martial_Move ment_Beginning_Exercises

http://www.pdf-search-engine.com/aunkai-pdf.html
(the first pdf file the list - re: "1/2 "Tenchijin" is a basics of the aunkai method.")

[KIWEST]

IMO how you do "your" horse stance must depend upon how flexible you are in the hips. For myself, I have found that front stances are no problem but horse stance more difficult. Likewise, in front splits I can almost get to the floor but sideways...no chance.
Also I find that I can do a front kick (when you are in a front stance kind of position) higher than my head despite have short legs, but with a side kick or roundhouse (when you are closer to a side splits position) I struggle to get anywhere beyond chest height.
Yes, I guess being 53 years old kind of puts me at a disadvantage, but I do believe that we all have a natural degree of flexibility that it is impossible to go beyond without wearing out your joints. Not a good idea IMO.
I was once taught an exercise where you stand upright and keeping your body vertical, gradually lift your leg sideways, toes pointing forwards. Have someone support the lifted leg by packing it underneath. Gradually lift it higher until you get to the point where you can no longer keep your body vertical. When that happens you have reached the maximum stretch on that side of the body. With only one leg being moved from vertical, the theory is that joint limitation is what decides your maximum "lift" rather than muscle or tendon flexibility. If you can measure the angle between your upright leg and the lifted one and then double it (or to be more accurate repeat the exercise for the other leg and add the two results together) that would give you your maximum split even after all the stretching in the world. I have done this test and it is surprising how far short of that maximum I can reach when trying to do side splits. I am told that this difference is the maximum improvement I can ever expect to achieve.
Has anyone else ever tried this or have any thoughts on the matter?
My point though is that if, like me you have quite restricted sideways splits then you are unlikely to achieve a good wide horse stance. Of course one would hope to be able to improve and I always try to do the widest low stance I possibly can. But I do sometimes wonder whether some instructors actually understand the limitations that some students have on splits and horse stances. I have actually heard instructors (who themselves were probably blessed with being naturally very flexible from birth) telling their students that "everyone can do full box splits if you keep trying hard enough". True, you can improve but it is stupid to tell students everyone that that can all do the same things. You only have to look at the difference betwen students of similar ages, especially kids to realise that we are all different.
But to sum up, if you want to improve your wide horse stance then you also need to improve your box splits.

[Ki_Power]

other than doing horse stance with burning candles under you, what other ways can you train your muscles to get the lowest and best positioned horse stance, is it also to do with flexability. and might i be able to do squats in the gym to make my legs stronger? what have you guys found?



Here, this will help.

Start with opening your hips...these two poses will help achieve this:

This is the Frog pose...when doing this, ensure your knees are in-line with your hip sockets, then let the knees splay outward allowing the groin to get closer to the ground. When you open up enough to get flat, then having a partner come press lightly on your low back will give you a deeper expression of the pose. Additionally, when you end up coming all the way down, extend your arms straight forward and bring your chest to the floor.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c395/Evil_Irish/images-22.jpg

This is a variation of the full-split or what some call the chinese splits. With the legs straight out to the sides, the intensity of the stretch is increased. Again, ensure proper allignment, with the heals, knees and hips in one line.
The only problem with this photo is her head should be looking straight ahead with the throat on the floor.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c395/Evil_Irish/E-1.jpg


When it comes to strength, you need to understand there is a difference between weight-strength training and functional-strength training. Practicing you low stances and doing "functional" squats will benefit more than doing traditional squats with weight.


Last but not least, knee safety. When practicing your stance, Keep the knees above the feet as best as possible! Having the knees canted out or in causes undo pressure and could eventually lead to an injury.

*Adding a Vinyasa style Yoga practice to your training regimine will benefit GREATLY!

Hope this helps.

[KIWEST]

Good ideas Ki Power. Another exercise is to do a shoulder stand with your back against the wall and let your legs relax into maximum split position. Hold this position for a period of time, say 30 seconds or one minute, then slightly raise your legs, maybe an inch or so and hold that position. Then after the same period of time relax again and repeat the excercise in reps of 10. Usually you will find that your split increases after a few reps.
However I have found that all such exercises seem to benefit most those who already have a reasonable split as the stretching forces generated are greater if your legs are wider apart in the first place. For those who have very limited splits I am not sure that they help all that much.
I have never used them myself, but I do wonder whether for those les flexible students a stretching machine would be useful, provided it is used with care...and therein lies the problem...it will always be tempting to go just that little bit further.....hmmm, maybe not then!

[unknown-KJN]

Although I think that strength (functional strength, as Liam proposed) has more to do with achieving a good horse stance, since the discussion has turned to flexibility, I will reiterate what I've stated elsewhere here on MAP. Thomas Kurz seems to get amazing results for a wide variety of folks, by using his methods. I don't own his books but feel confident in endorsing them, as I used similar methods to his in my MA career and managed to achieve acceptable results WRT flexibility.

Here's one of his books:
Stretching Scientifically: A Guide to Flexibility Training


I'd have inserted a link to a good article here on MAP concerning improvement to one's flexibility, but unfortunately the ARTICLES section is being "revamped" (per Saz). Whenever the articles do come back, it's the one about STRETCHING MACHINES written by superfoot.


EDIT:
Another exercise is to do a shoulder stand with your back against the wall and let your legs relax into maximum split position.Why bother with a shoulder stand? You can accomplish the same results by simply lying on the floor with your tushy pushed all the way up against the wall, and then relax your legs so they "fall apart." The wall can help hold the legs apart as your heels are pushing against the wall with friction and gravity helps keep them from coming back together like the natural tendency you feel when doing the same thing while sitting up. Also no pressure on the knees like with the picture of the girl in Liam's post, who should have "known better" than to lay her head sideways on the floor. ;)

I had a student who did this wall exercise so much she wound up with an "arced" stain on the wall (due to "unwashed feet syndrome").

[KIWEST]

Why bother with a shoulder stand? You can accomplish the same results by simply lying on the floor with your tushy pushed all the way up against the wall, and then relax your legs so they "fall apart." The wall can help hold the legs apart as your heels are pushing against the wall with friction and gravity helps keep them from coming back together like the natural tendency you feel when doing the same thing while sitting up. Also no pressure on the knees like with the picture of the girl in Liam's post, who should have "known better" than to lay her head sideways on the floor. ;)

I had a student who did this wall exercise so much she wound up with an "arced" stain on the wall (due to "unwashed feet syndrome").

LOL..I like that..unwashed feet syndrome! But I also think that simply lying on the floor as you suggest would not produce quite the same results as the shoulder stand as the hips would be at a 90 degree angle to the spine (as opposed to the shoulder stand position in which the spine and hips are more or less in line) which could IMO effect the resulting split. I have tried it both ways and the shoulder stand definitely achieves a greater stretch for me.

[ember]

Rearrangins a bit:

I had a student who did this wall exercise so much she wound up with an "arced" stain on the wall (due to "unwashed feet syndrome").

I had that arc at my old house, it had less to do with "unwashed feet" than normal skin oils on very old, flat paint.




Why bother with a shoulder stand? You can accomplish the same results by simply lying on the floor with your tushy pushed all the way up against the wall, and then relax your legs so they "fall apart." The wall can help hold the legs apart as your heels are pushing against the wall with friction and gravity helps keep them from coming back together like the natural tendency you feel when doing the same thing while sitting up.

That's what I did, from lying down. I can do a shoulderstand fairly well of itself (though supporting with my hands), but if I try to do more with the legs like splits, I don't feel so balanced.

[unknown-KJN]

I have tried it both ways and the shoulder stand definitely achieves a greater stretch for me.I only mentioned that alternate way since some people may lack the upper body strength or balance to perform the shoulder stand. Also, RELAXING the muscles usually helps achieve a better stretch and lying down instead of perched on your shoulders certainly sounds more relaxed to me. :cool:



EDIT:
That's what I did, from lying down. I can do a shoulderstand fairly well of itself (though supporting with my hands), but if I try to do more with the legs like splits, I don't feel so balanced.
SEE!! My point exactly.

[Ki_Power]

just add yoga practice to your routine...it makes it much easier! :)

[KIWEST]

[QUOTE=unknown-KJN;10616445]I only mentioned that alternate way since some people may lack the upper body strength or balance to perform the shoulder stand. Also, RELAXING the muscles usually helps achieve a better stretch and lying down instead of perched on your shoulders certainly sounds more relaxed to me. :cool:
QUOTE]

Actually UnKnown I have been thinking about this. And we did the exercise in last night's class. And I have decided that I agree with you! Having though about it, from the point of view of this thread, (IE horse stance), I now feel that lying on your back is actually better as, apart from the balance and difficulty issues of a shoulder stand, with the thighs at a 90 degree angle to your spine they are actually closer to the position that they are in during horse stance.
The frog position shown above is also very good.
I find it works well to do these stretches and then practise your forms putting extra emphasis on stances by hesitating in each stance for a second and sinking down a little before moving to the next stance. Done repeatedly you should find that at the end of your practice your form looks noticeably better.