Drajj - Connection w/Hapkido (info sources?)

[Thomas]

Sometimes in Hapkido discussions, the influence of Drajj comes up, especially in terms of being an influence on Hapkido above and beyond Daito-ryu Aikijujitsu. In a recent thread for example, it was mentioned as the source of throws in Hapkido.

Can anyone recommend any books, sites, videos that detail the history and influence of Drajj on Hapkido. I am interested in reputable sources, but will take what I can get! Also, any sources on "Drajj" as a system would be interesting as well.

Thanks!


Plug - I love the Hapkido history article here at MAP: http://www.martialartsplanet.com/magazine/styles/hapkido1.htm

[JimH]

The History of Dait ryu aiki jujitsu is as varied as the foundations of Hapkido and the Takeda/Choi links.

There are many sites of DRAJJ that list a lineage that goes back generations and then there are sites that claim Takeda is the first source.

DRAJJ sites are reluctant to claim much of Choi and Hapkido.

If we look at some of the DRAJJ sites we will see how they list basically all Jujitsu as an off shoot of DRAJJ and how Judo and BJJ are an off shoot of an offshoot Jujitsu that is traced back to DRAJJ.

knowledge is good but the sources are so varied you have to have an understanding but you have to claim a history you believe.

I tend to believe the extended history as the Japanese are very particular of writing their lineage and training,but the end result is no one really knows the truth.

Look at hapkido,the History is relatively new and we have many debates on who did what and who named what or changed what,and the first generation students are alive and they cannot agree.

If you read the DRAJJ lineage they speak of Shiro Saigo as being a master of DRAJJ and how his love of Kano's daughter (Kano=Judo's founder) led him to fight as a Judo represntative against other Jujitsu masters and how he easily defeated them,then go to a Judo site and they give contrary info of how Shiro was purely a product of Kano and Judo.

It all gets contrary.

As we believe ,or not,that Choi learned Daito Ryu from Takeda,we must find a line of DRAJJ history that satisfies our thoughts.

Here is a DRAJJ lineage chart:
http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/1235/lineage.html

[nj_howard]

Thomas, I'm not aware of any verifiable information that conclusively links Hapkido to Daito Ryu. However, if you'd like to get an excellent idea of what mainstream Daito Ryu is like today, I'd suggest you invest in the 2 dvd's by Kondo sensei in which he demonstrates all 30 of the Ikkajo set of Daito Ryu techniques. This is their first dan curriculum. The dvd's are very well made and have good-quality English subtitles. Kondo gives in-depth explanations of the techniques themselves, and of the aiki principles that are central to the techniques.

Since you're quite familiar with a variety of Hapkido styles, you'll almost certainly see lots of similarities with the Daito Ryu techniques.

You can order the dvd's from the Aikido Journal website, for about $40 each. I think they're well worth it.

[slipthejab]

I can second nj_howards pointer towards the Kondo Katsuyuki sources for info on Daito Ryu Aiki JuJutsu.

The translations and subtitle on both the DVD and the translations of the books are done by Derek Steel and Hisako Ishida. Really well done and far more complete than just the usual transliteration you see in martial arts books. The english voice on the DVD is the that of Derek Steel - who had trained for quite some time in Japan directly under Kondo sensei. The intro in the book is by Stanley A. Pranin - always a good source for information and insight.

The books title is:

Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu
Hiden Mokuroku Ikkajo
By Katsuyuki Kondo, Menkyo Kaiden

Published by Aiki News
ISBN- 4-900586-60-9

Enjoy.:)

[nj_howard]

...The translations and subtitle on both the DVD and the translations of the books are done by Derek Steel and Hisako Ishida. Really well done and far more complete than just the usual transliteration you see in martial arts books. The english voice on the DVD is the that of Derek Steel - who had trained for quite some time in Japan directly under Kondo sensei. The intro in the book is by Stanley A. Pranin - always a good source for information and insight.
Slipthejab, thanks for that additional info.

I haven't found any English voice yet on my dvd's... probably just need to spend a little more time going thru all of the features. :)

btw, I agree with your comments. I don't speak any Japanese, so I can't judge the translations, but I can say that the English subtitles are very well written and are chock-full of information. As you say, definitely much better than the average martial arts video.

Just one more thought... some people may be saying, "Only 30 techniques to first dan... we have 150 in my style of Hapkido - what gives?"... Even though these dvd's "only" present 30 techniques, these are pretty involved techniques, with lots of subtleties. At the October Kondo sensei seminar in Maryland, he said that if you train at his Tokyo school three days a week for five years, you can have a basic level of proficiency in the Ikkajo techniques. I would not say that he exaggerated.

[JimH]

Here is a nice interview with Kondo:

http://www.daito-ryu.org/kako1.html

[JimH]

I have to tell you guys,you come up with some interesting DVDs and videos,you all are costing me a fortune,lol,lol.

I Just placed my order for the Kondo 2 set package.
Yesterday I recieved and watched the Pro Hapkido championships DVD.
Thomas turned me on to the Hankido Basics DVD.

That is just the stuff I bought from chat on this site,wow.

Now if you could only down load this into your brain like in the "Matrix" it would be Great,lol.

[JimH]

As Howard has said ,there is minimal reference to Hapkido through DRAJJ sites,the references found are from the hapkido side towards the DRAJJ side.

Most DRAJJ sites barely mention Choi and they down play his role in having trained in DRAJJ.

But if one looks at the art of DRAJJ and then compares it to First Generation students of Choi in Hapkido the similarities are hard to miss.

I have seen GM In Sun Seo doing Hapkido and I have seen Masters Miquel Ibarra and Roy Goldberg of Daito Ryu aiki Jujitsu and the materials are identical.

I also have tapes of these same men and a few other Jujitsu Masters and I find them all to be near identical.

Having trained in Hapkido,Aikido ,Jujitsu/judo,I see the root arts and the way the root arts are carried into each of the various arts or off shoots of DRAJJ.

It is there ,no matter how it got there, Hapkido is connected to DRAJJ,even if the DRAJJ people do not want to admit it.

[nj_howard]

...if one looks at the art of DRAJJ and then compares it to First Generation students of Choi in Hapkido the similarities are hard to miss...

...It is there ,no matter how it got there, Hapkido is connected to DRAJJ,even if the DRAJJ people do not want to admit it.
Jim, I really have to agree with you. The similarities are so pervasive that it's hard for me to imagine that, at the very least, Daito Ryu and Choi's Hapkido / Hapkiyusul / Yawara or whatever you choose to call it, do not have a common root.

It would be great if some day somebody unearths solid, verifiable evidence to confirm Choi's story...

[Olderico]

So what could be the reason for the DRAJJ-Community to deny Hapkidos link to DRAJJ ? Are they jealous because Hapkido is a very renowned MA practised worldwide by millions of people, while DRAJJ is nearly unknown?

[nj_howard]

So what could be the reason for the DRAJJ-Community to deny Hapkidos link to DRAJJ ? Are they jealous because Hapkido is a very renowned MA practised worldwide by millions of people, while DRAJJ is nearly unknown?
No, I don't think it's that. Rather, the simple fact is that there is no known, objectively verifiable documentation that Choi studied Daito Ryu under Takeda or anybody else. This seems odd to many followers of Japanese arts, given Taekda's practice of carefully documenting all of his full-time students in his ledgers. There is documentary evidence of other Koreans having studied under Takeda, but, to date, nothing for Choi.

As for Daito Ryu being nearly unknown, I think it's relatively widely practiced in Japan. At the very least, it's known as the source art of Aikido. But it is hard to find legitimate DR schools in the States. There simply aren't very many of them.

[JimH]

NJ Howard,when I mentioned In Sun Seo,I should have also said that the Root art can be seen in Almost all of the first generation students of Choi.

Olderico:

From what I have Read Pureists of DRAJJ go by written records,true lineage,(as Howard pointed out).

There is no written Documentation on Choi, and Takeda was said to have kept accurate records of all who attended classes.

Had Choi been able to hold on to his paper work from Takeda it would be undisputed lineage.

Ueshiba had been a long time student of Takeda and he says he never saw Choi
but
he had also said he never saw Koreans training and we know of several
Koreans who recieved teaching from Takeda and had held on to their paper work.(GM Jang In Mok ,for one).

DRAJJ was on the decline,as were many Jujitsu styles, that is why many Jujitsu practioners rallied around Kano and his Judo in hopes that this sport version would revive DRAJJ and Jujitsu in general.
(again I have DRAJJ at the same time as Kano/Judo,this again is dependent upon your belief in the history or in DRAJJ starting with Takeda)

That is also why Maeda ,the teacher of the Gracie's was traveling around the world teaching and training,trying to spread the word on judo/Jujitsu.

DRAJJ is still trained as are many Jujitsu styles but since jujitsu is the fore father of many arts(Hapkido,aikido,Judo,BJJ) one would expect it to be more popular.

[slipthejab]

So what could be the reason for the DRAJJ-Community to deny Hapkidos link to DRAJJ ? Are they jealous because Hapkido is a very renowned MA practised worldwide by millions of people, while DRAJJ is nearly unknown?

Oh my. :bang:
I doubt it's a popularity contest.

[dngrruss]

For what it's worth-
My view of the DRAJJ/HKD connection can be boiled down to both politics and racial bias.

Choi claims to have been not only a student of Takeda, but his champion. DRAJJ purists say that not only didn't happen, but they would never have let a Korean be house champion. Choi says his papers were lost/stolen. DRAJJ folks say the papers never existed.

I have always been a believer in the old saying that somewhere in the middle lies the truth. i think that both have pieces of the truth. I believe that Choi was house champ, and that he would not have any official acknowledgement.

Picture this: you are running a school in Japan and, as was common up until (I think) the 70's or so, a challenge is issued from your school against the Takeda school for teaching and business territory. You put your champ against Takeda's.

Takeda then says, "You are not worthy of fighting my champion. You can fight my Korean Houseboy first. If you beat him, then maybe you can fight my champion." Your champ assumes that he will destroy this little Korean, since Koreans aren't much higher on the social ladder than your house dog. He gets in a match with Choi, who proceeds to rip apart your champ. You have not only lost territory, but you have lost face and been shamed horribly as well.

I think that Takeda was rather shrewd. He recognized the potential of Choi, and recognized how he could use him to further his business and fame, while not putting him up on a high social level.

Just my opinion...

I think I need to drink more...

[JimH]

I also believe the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

I wonder if anyone has ever asked GM Jang In Mok if he ever knew Choi,since they both should have been students together.

Gm Jang In Mok is still alive,perhaps he has memory of Choi?
(they are supposed to be documenting his memories of life in Japan and in training in DRAJJ,so hopefully the question of Choi will be asked and answered)

[JimH]

since posting the above I searched for reference to Jang In Mok and Choi and i came across this post:

Posted by: mike-IHF

Shinbushi,

Why are you bringing this topic up. It has been argued about over and over. If you look at traditional hapkido, or Hapkiyusul you can plainly see that it is Daito Ryu. If not then you are blind. Myself being a student of Hapkiyusul know from experience the techniques are exactly the same with some suttle differences. Ther is also a well known article from Jin Mok who did recieve Dan rankings from Takeda while he was at a camp in Japan for Koreans during the occupation. He even stated that he remembered Choi Young-Sul being there, and that they did not get along. Jin Mok's certificates from Takeda have been verified by the Daito Ryu in Japan.

.................................................. ..........................
Master Mike,if you have the article that would be a great addition to this thread.

I have not been able to find it,(yet,lol)

Thank You

[mike-IHF]

JimH,

Wow! where did you dig up that old post, LOL. If I remember correctly, I saw the article from someone else that posted it, I believe on one of the other forums. I believe it came from an interview that was done with Jang In Mok, a while ago. Supposedly, he did in fact say that he rememberd Choi, but they did not get along. And kind of refered to Choi being hard to deal with. I will try and find, the post with that article, however that was a long time back, so it might be hard.

[JimH]

Mike,
Your recollection of your post and the article you read are great,at least from that we know to some extent that a verified Korean daito ryu instructor,Jang In Mok, does remember Choi,even if he did not like him,so Choi then had some hands on training as compared to just being an observer as many try to claim.

[mike-IHF]

JimH,

Mike,
Your recollection of your post and the article you read are great,at least from that we know to some extent that a verified Korean daito ryu instructor,Jang In Mok, does remember Choi,even if he did not like him,so Choi then had some hands on training as compared to just being an observer as many try to claim.

Yes, in my opinion there is pretty good evidence that he was there, and did have some connection with Takeda and or DRAJJ. I think what most people are trying to do now is find out what extent was Choi's training, and affiliation with Takeda, or other DRAJJ practitioners. I'm still looking for the original thread, I believe it was over on Budoseek, somewhere. There was also a gentleman on there, a (Japanese historian) who stated that he actually had in possesion a newspaper article, from Japan circa. 1930's. It was an article on Takeda teaching a seminar, and the uke was Choi. That gentleman has disappeard, from the forums for some time. I'm not sure what happened to him. But if the newspaper does exist, that would be a very big piece of evidence to support Choi's claim.

[hapkiyoosool]

That article would make a lot of people happy and others eat crow.
THAT.....would truley be a gem!
See you in December Mike!

There is a Daito-Ryu First Dan in our area that actually trained with Kondo Katsuyuki, I beleive in Japan. We schedule training together. It's the SAME techniques. How very interesting. :rolleyes:

[JimH]

quote Hapkiyoosool
"There is a Daito-Ryu First Dan in our area that actually trained with Kondo Katsuyuki, I beleive in Japan. We schedule training together. It's the SAME techniques. How very interesting."

How very Interesting indeed.

The proof is there in the root system and when you see it ,and or do it, you see the similaritites,the overlap,the Base art.
Hapkido was not born from a dream,it was born from Daito Ryu,how it was learned is debatable for now,but it is founded in the same Basic principles,it is an off shoot of DRAJJ,just as Ueshiba and his Aikido are.

The article Master Mike referenced would be a handy gem.

Hopefully those who interviewed GM Jang In Mok for the Book asked about GM Choi.
A personal account from a true (Paper available) certified instructor,who happens to be Korean would be vindication.
(to some extent anyway,as those who doubt will always doubt)

[nj_howard]

After seeing the above reference to Kondo Katsuyuki sensei, I thought it might be appropriate to post this here in this thread... preparation is already underway for Kondo's Daito Ryu seminar next fall. It will probably be held in the NYC metropolitan area, perhaps in northeastern New Jersey. I believe some very preliminary details may already be available on the Aikido Journal discussion forum.

I would recommend to all of you to attend if you can, and if you're truly interested in exploring and experiencing the Daito Ryu side of the possible connection between the two arts. Kondo's seminar this past October in Maryland was outstanding. His connection to the Takeda roots is unquestionable.

Regardless of what style of Hapkido you study, I bet you will enjoy this seminar.

[hapkiyoosool]

That sounds like an excellent idea! If you have ANY info on that, I would like to take some of my students and go. Could you post anything you find out in here?
It sounds like a great time!

[JimH]

While searching Aikido journal for the Kando seminar I came across two seminars that maybe of interest to those who want to see the True application of Aikido (Tenshin) and see how it relates to hapkido.

The First seminar is Dec 2-3 in New York
Luis Santos Sensei
Began training in 1982 in Japan and the US
95 opened his school in Florida
95 became a student of Haruo Matsuoka Sensei(a student of Seagal Sensei)
2001 became a direct student of Seagal Sensei

http://www.aikidojournal.com/events.php?id=596
.................................................. .................................................. ...
The second seminar is a One day event December 10 in New York
Hauro Matsuoka Sensei 7th Dan under Seagal Sensei
Began training in 1980
89-97 was chief Instructor Tenshin Dojo LA
97 he returned to Japan and trained under Seiseki Abe Sensei
(Seiseki Abe Sensei is a 10th dan and one of the closest students to Ueshiba)

http://www.aikidojournal.com/events.php?id=530

[nj_howard]

Master Allen,

If you go over to the Aikido Journal website and browse thru the thread about last October's seminar in Maryland, you will see some posts by a gentleman named Jose Garrido. My understanding is that Jose teaches Daito Ryu at a school in Northeastern New Jersey, near the George Washington Bridge. I believe that Jose is going to be one of the main people involved in hosting Kondo here next year. I met Jose and a couple of his students at the October seminar. They were all very nice guys and respectful martial artists. I imagine that if you PM him thru Aikido Journal, he'd respond.

Good luck... I'm hoping to be able to attend next year's seminar, and it would be great to see you there.

[hapkiyoosool]

nj_Howard.

Thank you so much. I will do that. I will put Jose Garrido on the list to contact! You are a great resource Howard! Thank You!

I think it would be of great advantage to all Hapkido people of all styles to attend one of these at least.

[KSW_123]

Has anyone heard if/when Dr. He-Young Kimm is going to finish his history of Korean martial arts book?

I found a reference here http://www.hanmudo.org/founder.htm at the botton of the page.

Hopefully he will be objective enough to shine some light onto the influences of all the Korean arts. I just worry that he won't want to ruffle anyones feathers.

[JimH]

After the recommendations on the Kono DVDs I ordered the two DVD set,I would like to Thank those who mentioned it as those are some Great DVDs on DRAJJ and they clearly show the Root of the art we call Hapkido.

I really enjoyed the detailed explanations of the techniques.

The Historic significance of the techniques.

The relationship to the sword work.

Over all I thought these DVDs were well worth getting and I highly recommend them to all aiki practioners.

When the seminar mentioned above happens with Kono,I will be there as his material is so significant to what we do and his presentation of the material is excellent.

Again thank you for the heads up on the DVDs and on the future seminar.