Knife defences in Ju Jitsu

[SoKKlab]

Hi Everybody,
I know that we are all studying different versions of Ju Jitsu some older Ryus and some more modern ones. I wanted to ask your honest opinions on the knife defences in most forms of Ju Jitsu?

I feel that Ju Jitsu is a set of very useful skills applicable to most areas of self-protection, but I am slightly perturbed by some of the knife defences.

Knife Defence is probably the most contentious and difficult area within Martial Arts discussion and practice.

IMO most of the Knife Defences that are taught in Ju Jitsu (And Hapkido and alot of other Martial Arts for that matter), fly in the face of logic and my prior experience and I don't feel that I would ever try to use them.

Has anyone ever pulled off any of these techniques (Ie Wrist lock/with throw etc) in a real situation, even with many counterstrikes/ weakeners first?

What are your opinions on the knife defence techniques that you have been taught within Ju Jitsu, do you feel that they are realistic?

Finally, just so that i'm clear about this. My purpose here is an ordered discussion, not to stir up a hornets nest, or slag anything off, a constructive compare and contrast of opinions and experiences would be great.

Your thoughts and opinions would be appreciated.

[YODA]

In 27 years of MA training - the last 15 or so specialising in weapons training - the ONLY unarmed vs knife program that I've seen that works well under total resistance is Karl Tanswell's S.T.A.B. programme - it ROCKS.

[Andrew Green]

If you fight against a knife you will get cut. It's just a matter of where and how deep...

Sparring makes this very clear.

Many of the techniques taught without a weapon involved fly in the face of logic and prior experience as well.

[cal_JJJ]

Hi SoKKlab,

I feel much the same way.

Most JJ knife defences are just hold overs from club arts!!!

For knife defense they become "Oh sh** moves" as in "Oh sh**, I can't beleave this ideot is using this attack" or "Oh sh**, I have to do something, anything, just to survive."
(IMO of course)

I agree very much with Mr. Green, & my solution has been to take up escrima as a second art. Many things can sub for a stick and having something in your hand longer than a knife changes the odds by a whole lot. And, if not then escrima can be done open handed and is better than JJ knife defense arts alone.

[kyokujitsu]

I can agree to the fact that i wouldn't use the techniques that i learn to defend against knife attacks, just the simple fact that i manage to hit my friends when we train knife defence...they have been practicing ju-jutsu for 14 years now :D

[doglikesparky]

Weapons are all ways a difficult one.
I've heard some people say you should treat the knife like it was just a fist and use the same principles as for general attacks. But there is a huge psychological barrier to be overcome here.
A good view and opinion that i like to teach is to try and get the attacker to overcommit with said knife by offering a target like your arm because it's far better to take a cut on your arm than in a vital organ.
When i say 'offer' i don't mean hold your hand out but put your hand up as if to say 'look mate i don't want any trouble' chances are they may strike and this will be the point at which you will apply a technique that suits your style of training.
I also agree with JAMJTX you do need an evasive technique don't try to intercept their attack. Use some footwork to take yourself around the attacker and away from the weapon. But the technique you use needs to be very sharp and decisive, there is no time to hang around when someone has a blade.

[Freeform]

I'd have to disagree, there's a whole world of difference between a fist and a knife!
This changes the whole dynamics of the situation.

Fight or Flee?

Col

[TheMachine]

the best thing you can do is to find a fast economical method to diarm the knife or neutralize the arm with the knife and work from there

[SoKKlab]

Okay,
All very well and good and thank you to those that have contributed so far.

But if I may get this back on track, who out there has made any of the Ju Jitsu Knife disarms work in a real situation?

[Hakko-Ryu]

I've heard of it working...BUT not seen it =P. there was this one guy, a security at an abortion clinic in Los Angeles, who was attacked by an abortion extremist who was holding a scalpel and was threating everyone at the clinic. The guy squared up with him and as he lunged forward a couple of times the security guy managed to intercept the attack, knocking the guy off balance then securing a konoha gaeshi which took him down fast, and as he was falling he knocked his head on the corner of an operating table/abortion table thing and was rendered unconsciouss...The security guy explained to my Shihan that the whole time he was being attacked it felt like an outerbody experience where he actually saw himself DO what he was taught in slow motion and that everything came out as if his body just reacted to how he was taught to defend against knives. I believe he did suffer a cut or two from the assailant's thrusts. But all the while, he came out of a flight or run situation alive and not dead. I believe that in certain situation knife defenses does work and is SUPPOSED to work! I've always thought jujitsu was invented for UNARMED combat on the battlefield. And if you were to find yourself unarmed on the battlefield then you're most likely going to face someone that is ARMED and ready to KILL you.

[Jim]

who out there has made any of the Ju Jitsu Knife disarms work in a real situation?
I have - and I've got the gouge in my shin to prove it!

[Hakko-Ryu]

in your shin?? was the guy trying to stab your leg???

[Jim]

No, I was asleep on a train and he woke me with it in front of me. I did the 'wrist grab and twist' one before I actually thought better of it and ended up with a knife tip in the shin. He took off when he saw all the blood.

Second downside to the story; no one else in the train did anything about it (except one older guy when I actually managed to get off the train who asked me if I needed a ride to the hospital).

[Sub zero]

Funny it was on a train.A sensei i know was attaked with a knife (he worked at a train staition.)He did the first thing we are taught.the best knofe defence.RUN LIKE HELL.
Now this guys a fast run ner but the attacker caught up with him.The sensei turned around and booted him in the knee cap.
Amazingly the man got up (I've felt his kicks owwwww).I think he was seriously drunk.He then ran for a few more metres but fell to the ground in pain.Then he was taken away.

[Jim]

Yeah, real funny... Ha ha ha.. ha.. ha.. h - why was it funny again?

[Sub zero]

It was funny as in coincidental.It wasn't ment to be taken literally.Sorry if any offence was taken.Just becasue i knew a similar thing invloving trains.I didn't actualy laugh.It was funny as in "Weird".

Sorry.

Nobody helped my JJ sensei aswell.

[snailfist]

No first-person accounts fortunately- just a brown belt describing an incident with an assailant who was high at the time. (The point of the story was not that he took the guy out, but that due to the drugs the attacker was able to walk away afterwards after a not-inconsiderable deal of damge being allegedly dealt to him.) He seemed to come out of it ok but I obviously can't say how true it is.

The JJ club I train in does take a pretty fair view on realism- it wouldn't suprise me if my brown belt's tale was true. During one session of my thus far fairly limited knife training my (blue belt) partner got bored and started fully resisting- striking with the other hand, using rolling ukemis to escape twisting locks to the arm, etc. There's considered no need to hurt the tori, but making it clear that you could (eg. taking a punch to 1cm before their nose) is adequate in explaining the deficiencies in their application of technique to them.

[Maximicus]

There are 2 categories of things you can do: 1)Get as far from the knife as possible (run away, or find a weak spot and pray for a one or two hit KO). Or 2) Get as close to the knife as possible (Wrist lock, generally get knife control.)

The first part of 2 works best. I also recomend getting a weapon. No you shouldn't carry around a sword or Nunchaku, lol. But something makeshift and hopefully longer works. Use a belt like a whip or nunchaku is good, also stabing their hand with a pen might make them drop the knife, if you can get close enough. The sucky thing about knives is murphies law, if he has a knife, your gonna be cut, if you have a knife, it's gonna be used against you.

[Tatsumaru]

try a nice distraction, not as in "oh look, an eagle", more like lobbing a bag or something at their torso. They should either get knocked back or duck and become off balance, hence missing your foot flying into their head

i don't know whether this would work in a real life situation but i can't see a problem with it, if nothing else it will buy you enough time to get the hell away from there!

[madfrank]

Hi

Apparently most knife attacks are frenzied affairs witht the attacker hyped up on adrenalin.

Are you knife defences taking this into account

most schools I've seen train against stepping punches holding the knife, never happens in reality.

Oh by the way the second most common form of knife attack is by a knife you never see.

think about it.

MF

[Tommy_P]

try a nice distraction, not as in "oh look, an eagle", more like lobbing a bag or something at their torso. They should either get knocked back or duck and become off balance, hence missing your foot flying into their head

i don't know whether this would work in a real life situation but i can't see a problem with it, if nothing else it will buy you enough time to get the hell away from there!

The principle is sound IF your squared of with an attacker who is circling in sort of a fighting stance as seen in the movies.
However things don't happen that way in real life, especially with an experienced street guy.
Most times you won't see the blade even if it's already out before your confrontation. It is often held with the blade up and behind the wrist/forearm with the body slightly angled and the knife hand slightly obscured by the thigh, a very natural and un assuming posture.
Quite often the knife is pulled and used "during' the fist fight/ensuing wrestling match.
I got stabbed twice in one fight and never knew it until the two guys ran away. My intestines had been punctured and I was down for the count a few minutes after realizing. The knife was pulled already opened, from a jacket pocket and got me as I was taking a swing at the other guy. I thought I had been punched.
If you get to square off with a knife fighter distraction and some defenses may help but it almost never goes that way.
In my old neighborhood guys used to carry a razor blade in their mouth and could talk to you all day and you would never know. They could get it out of their mouth and slit your throat in one super fast swipe. It happens so fast you don't stand a chance. The hand goes up to the mouth "fast", the blade is in the fingers without a hair hesitation and the hand continues to the throat or face, one smooth move.

Ever get hit or try to defend against a baseball bat??? You can go over it in class all you want, it just ain't the same......believe me. ;)

Tommy

[Tatsumaru]

you make a good point tommy, hidden attacks like that are pretty impossible to stop.

[Tommy_P]

you make a good point tommy, hidden attacks like that are pretty impossible to stop.

That's why distancing is important where ever possible and the most important distance is how far and fast you can run :D

I always say, A good run is better than a bad stay! ;)


Tommy

[snailfist]

Tommy, it sounds like a rough neighbourhood you live in!

Apparently most knife attacks are frenzied affairs witht the attacker hyped up on adrenalin.

Are you knife defences taking this into account

most schools I've seen train against stepping punches holding the knife, never happens in reality.

Oh by the way the second most common form of knife attack is by a knife you never see.

think about it.

MF


That's the great thing about jujitsu- the mechanical disability means that it doesn't matter if they feel no pain!
We train a little against hidden knife attacks. It's obviously difficult to do it on a regular basis though! Generally one hidden in the manner you describe gets pulled in a line-up to see how the person in the centre responds.

[shootodog]

i have a story but i won't share it. it was an unfortunate incident between me and a friend who decided to rush me with a shiv.

i was lucky that the pass didn't hit me. i was luckier still that i took his back and ended on the ground. i was lucky that he let go when i twisted his hand.

all in all i was lucky. the reality of it could've been worse.

[Matt_Bernius]

Hi Everybody,
[snip] I wanted to ask your honest opinions on the knife defences in most forms of Ju Jitsu?

I feel that Ju Jitsu is a set of very useful skills applicable to most areas of self-protection, but I am slightly perturbed by some of the knife defences.

[snip]

IMO most of the Knife Defences that are taught in Ju Jitsu (And Hapkido and alot of other Martial Arts for that matter), fly in the face of logic and my prior experience and I don't feel that I would ever try to use them.

[snip]

Finally, just so that i'm clear about this. My purpose here is an ordered discussion, not to stir up a hornets nest, or slag anything off, a constructive compare and contrast of opinions and experiences would be great.

Your thoughts and opinions would be appreciated. Agreed on the not posting to slag. I have had some experience with knife defenses/disarms derived from JJ and I have to completely agree with you. Here's my 2 cents on why they aren't the best from a modern self defense perspective.

The root of most grappling in the Japanese arts in Ju Jitsu. And the root of Ju Jitsu goes back to the battlefield. From my research (and looking at techniques) it's clear that Ju Jitsu was originally designed for dealing with an armored attacker (typically brandishing a weapon, for the sake of simplicity I'll say a sword). This is explains the empahsis on joint locking and manipulation rather than stiking (you can't hit through armor).

However, this battlefield aspect leads to the weakness of the art from a modern weapon defense mindset. Redgardless of what anyone attempts to say it's obvious that Ju Jitsu "knife" defenses (or rather weapon defenses) are predicated on the idea that the attacker is coming after you full bore with a 4 foot sword. All of the typically defenses that I have been shown rely on a HUGE amount of commitment/follow-through in the strike.

Anyone who has spent time around the knife knows that things typically don't work that way. There are certain attacks that have a lot of commitment (like and icepick grip downward stab). However, in general, because the weapon doesn't have much weight, it's much easier to retract a blocked swing (something much more difficult than with a sword).

This doesn't mean that Ju Jitsu knife defenses won't work. Let's face it, most of us have been around long enough in the game to know of at least on gifted individual who can take the most obscure method or technique and make it work for them. However, I firmly agree with you SoKKlab that I don't think, under pressure testing, that most folks could successfully pull off Ju Jistu knife defenses. They haven't, to my experience, really addressed the issues of a much less committed, much more random attack pattern that comes with using a knife.

I think that a good Filipino system is much more tactically applicable. I'm very interested to learn more about STAB. Can anyone recommend a website to find out more about it (I've googled it and still have not come up with enough info).

- Matt

[SoKKlab]

Nice Post Matt,
I feel that you've pretty much hit the nail firmly on the head.

[Tommy_P]

The root of most grappling in the Japanese arts in Ju Jitsu. And the root of Ju Jitsu goes back to the battlefield. From my research (and looking at techniques) it's clear that Ju Jitsu was originally designed for dealing with an armored attacker (typically brandishing a weapon, for the sake of simplicity I'll say a sword). This is explains the empahsis on joint locking and manipulation rather than stiking (you can't hit through armor).

Interesting, can you site the source of this information?
I would think that humans tend not to fight against weapons with empty hands where possible.
I was more under the impression that Jujitsu was used as a backup incase you lost your weapon and the fight went to the hands.
Obviously if that were the case then you may well be stuck fighting empty-handed against an armed assailant, but again it's a backup art and you wouldn't be going "into" the fight empty hand against a weapon. The weapon art being the mainstay and jujitsu the backup. While it would contain defenses against weapons such as swords and such I never would have interpreted it to have been designed for it.


Tommy

[Scaramouch]

Knife Defence - S.T.A.B. (Survival Tactics Against Blades) Programme thread (started by Yoda) link from last year -

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1828

[Matt_Bernius]

Interesting, can you site the source of this information?
I would think that humans tend not to fight against weapons with empty hands where possible.
I was more under the impression that Jujitsu was used as a backup incase you lost your weapon and the fight went to the hands.
Obviously if that were the case then you may well be stuck fighting empty-handed against an armed assailant, but again it's a backup art and you wouldn't be going "into" the fight empty hand against a weapon. The weapon art being the mainstay and jujitsu the backup. While it would contain defenses against weapons such as swords and such I never would have interpreted it to have been designed for it.

- Tommy
An example of the historical data is at:
http://www.jitsuka.org/jitsuka/history2.htm#ii.iii

I think you misunderstood what I wrote. Ju Jitsu was developed to support armed combat for exactly the situation you described: when a fighter lost their weapon and needed to continue to fight/survive. So therefore its weapon defenses were specifically geared for the weapons the fighters would be facing (primarily the sword).

You're totally right, battlefield=weapons. Armies would never willingly choose to fight emptyhanded. But they would train for the scenario where they would have lost their weapon. Hence Ju Jitsu.

The bigger point is that it's never grown beyond that mindset. And therefore it's knife defenses are questionable because they retrofit sword defenses. As stated before there is a world of difference between the two weapons. Assuming that defenses from one with tactically work against the other is a dangerous assumption.

- Matt

[deCadena]

Rule of thumb when faced with an armed opponent (knife) is to get something to balance the equation. never fight unarmed. Against a person who knows how to use a knife the probability of success becomes pretty slim.

facing an armed but uneducated person one will get cut
facing an armed and educated person one will get cut
facing an armed expert run forrest run. :D

[Aegis]

If you can get a weapon in time to defend yourself, great. If not, you have to go unarmed, in which case the first rule becomes "get away as quick as possible". The second rule is "You will get cut, so make sure it's not somewhere that will kill/disable you instantly". Then "Control the weapon" and "make the opponent bleed for it" probably come in quick succession.

When all's said and done, knife defences while unarmed are an extremely risky business, and more often than not you will need hospital treatment afterwards.

[snailfist]

I'm not sure how true that is about the necessity of a great deal of follow- thru; the first knife defense i learnt was a direct X-block, which would work better with less momentum behind the blade. The fact that you step back during it also leaves you in a prime position for a snap kick if they mess you about before you can apply the corresponding wristlock. (Contrary to popular belief, jujitsu has made a few concessions to the 21st century!)

[SoKKlab]

I'm not sure how true that is about the necessity of a great deal of follow- thru; the first knife defense i learnt was a direct X-block, which would work better with less momentum behind the blade. The fact that you step back during it also leaves you in a prime position for a snap kick if they mess you about before you can apply the corresponding wristlock. (Contrary to popular belief, jujitsu has made a few concessions to the 21st century!)

This-the X-block and other horrors against common sense, was exactly what I was getting at when I started this thread. And this alludes to the difference between real self-protection and most Martial Arts and how sometimes they are miles apart.

An Overhead X-Block against a Blade will get you killed, or at least get your arms cut to ribbons or pierced like a Shish Kebab. Alot of Ju Jitsu systems have abandoned it all together, the only time you tend to see it now in most of the JJJ systems that I have seen, is either as an off-line stop/ trap/ catch etc.

Or sometimes you see the modified Low X-Block type stop, using forward drive in order to strike the blade bearing arm at both sides of the wrist, this is a better technique and one that doesn't rely so much upon over-commital on behalf of the attacker, but does rely on definite commital from the defender.

Most, though not all Knife defences in JJJ do rely on a certain level of commital on behalf of the attacker, hence why alot of defences against E.G straight thrusts in JJJ rely upon versions of Kote Gaeshi or something similar, as the main counter...

IME this equates to the same problem as trying to catch a fast moving real punch (Not a Martial Artsy punch) in a perfect wrist lock, except the stakes are higher, much higher.

[snailfist]

I was referring to the lower X-block. The progression of it is an open door technique that blocks the knife outwards and forms an X merely as a guard to stop the knife sliding up your arm across your throat :cool:

Knife attacks from above are considered less common than thrusts by all those I Have spoken to, but it is fairly apparent that an X block against them amounts to suicide. We are told of the existence of X-block techniques against them, but we never train in them. Our defense against them is to:
1) try and block the knife before their arm comes down after being vertical and so has less power, and possibly (depending on their commitment to it) catching them off balance; then follow through with a figure-4 armlock.
2) If we don't react fast enough to catch it before it comes down, we are taught to get out of the way because a block isn't gona work. Again, various open door methods that control the knife on its way down are taught, including guiding the knife on a continuation of it's path back into the attacker, or (once control of the knife is attained) striking across their throat or face and locking their arm across your chest.

Saying all this I have seen some very dubious techniques floating about. My personal favourite:
1) Bar block the knife before it reaches your head.
2) Bend down...
3) ... and take their leg from under them using pressure on the thigh and rear of their ankle.
4) Apply an ankle lock to finish
(Suggested alternative finish- pull the knife out of your back and stab him with it :D )

Out of interest, have you ever been taught to catch a fast moving real punch (Not a Martial Artsy punch) in a perfect wrist lock by an instructor? We are taught never to catch punches, but to block them, then counterstrike, then grab, then lock, then snap :)

[SoKKlab]

Out of interest, have you ever been taught to by an instructor? We are taught never to catch punches, but to block them, then counterstrike, then grab, then lock, then snap :)

All sounds perfectly reasonable SF.

I have seen many 'Defences' that I consider to be approaching Fantasy like status in some JJJ systems.

A Common one is the step off line against a Straight Knife thrust to the stomach, chest or face, trap with an hand under and a hand over catching movement with the hands and then apply a Kote Gaeshi wrist lock. (we Do this one)

Whilst it's fun to do from a Ju Jitsu POV, it is in my opinion and experience, optimistic in the extreme and relies upon a lot of over-commital on behalf of the attacker.

[snailfist]

I'm not familiar with the japanese terms for various wrist locks, but it sounds like the main problem is relying on the assailant to fly past you without turning into you anyway. I agree that does sound pretty crazy from a self-defense POV.

I have seen various sweeps about that would require a lot of commitment from the attacker; although so much so that they are coming-on moves and when treated as such (i.e only exercised against that visibly high degree of committment from the aggressor) would perhaps be the only style of technique to work in that instance! Although obviously suicide against a more static attack, such techniques can not be criticised for failing to deal with a threat they were not intended to address and for which there were better, intended alternatives.

Maybe my problem with people dismissing JJ techniques as unrealistic or useless is that they are referring to techniques taught in places I have had the good fortune to avoid! Alternatively, it could be variance due to styles or perhaps even that the simpler methods are sometimes the most effective, and that as a mere beginner most of the more elaborate (and perhaps more impractical) methods I have not been taught yet. I would be interested to learn more about this S.T.A.B. program and see just how the techniques i know and consider more reliable than many compare to it!

[SoKKlab]

Maybe my problem with people dismissing JJ techniques as unrealistic or useless is that they are referring to techniques taught in places I have had the good fortune to avoid! Alternatively, it could be variance due to styles or perhaps even that the simpler methods are sometimes the most effective, and that as a mere beginner most of the more elaborate (and perhaps more impractical) methods I have not been taught yet. I would be interested to learn more about this S.T.A.B. program and see just how the techniques i know and consider more reliable than many compare to it!

Most, but Not all of the Ju Jitsu anti-blade techniques that I have seen or trained in so far are, in my opinion-Unrealistic-hence why I started this thread*.

I describe them as Unrealistic because they do not equate with what I have experienced in my life, either thru first hand or second hand experience.

*Please note, that I consider most anti-blade techniques in the majority of Martial arts that I have been exposed to, seen, trained in etc, to be Unrealistic.

And, it's always good to question and experiment with the whys and wherefores of technique, principals and things you are being taught, as your life may one day depend upon them...

[snailfist]

Agreed. Now knowing the sort of technique you refer to I would have to agree that some are pretty useless; how great a portion that is I'm not experienced enough to comment.

Next question for debate: as long as we all know some defenses against the various attack patterns that work effectively and recognise those techniques that do not, does it really matter? :D

[Sandy]

Hello everyone,

Does anybody know where you can learn the S.T.A.B. programme in the UK?

Having been caught out by a couple of bottle attacks to my head during my younger days, perhaps I should have studied ju jitsu instead!

[SoKKlab]

Next question for debate: as long as we all know some defenses against the various attack patterns that work effectively and recognise those techniques that do not, does it really matter? :D

That's just the point-are there any defences that work against Real attacks in the real world? Attack patterns don't mean anything, they are just like learning Dance Routines, but a bit rougher....

The only time you'll ever find out whether any of this stuff works for real, is when the Excremental Matter hits the Cooling Device.

My point is-yes it does matter, it matters very much. How you train is vitally important, your life may one day depend upon it.

[snailfist]

Sorry "patterns" was probably the wrong word there; "techniques" would have been better, e.g. low thrusts, downwards "ice pick" slashes, etc.

Are you familiar with the techniques I outlined? What do you make of them in real world terms?

[SoKKlab]

Sorry "patterns" was probably the wrong word there; "techniques" would have been better, e.g. low thrusts, downwards "ice pick" slashes, etc.

Are you familiar with the techniques I outlined? What do you make of them in real world terms?

Yes, i'm familiar with said techniques, personally I feel the most pragmatic ones are the help along Groin Impalement from the Overhead slash/ stab and the Low thrust counter, that has the Two hands X-style striking the Radial Bones of the knife Holder-which turns upwards into a Kote Gaeshi style lock, usually with the blade at their throat (well it is when I do it anyway...)

This last one does rely upon major commitment and Body weight going forward from the defender, but is a Practical solution to a difficult problem.

The Close-In ones aren't the bone of contention for me, it's the solutions for 'Bigger' techniques that are Borderline...IMO and IME.

[snailfist]

In what way "bigger"? What exactly do you mean?

[SoKKlab]

In what way "bigger"? What exactly do you mean?
Apols for taking an age to answer you. I did actually type out a Fabulous, in-depth, wonderful post in response to your question, but when i posted it, it dissappeared into the ether (the only time I've never copied a post before plonking it on here..) Oh well.

When I refer to 'Bigger' Techniques, I either mean Small Circle/ Big Circle in terms of Locking techniques or in this case the difference between an attack/ defence that is at The INITIAL stages of its action or the FINAL stages.

Example, the Low Cross Block is an interception against a stab to the nether-regions. It attacks the attack in its early (INITIAL) stages, before that attack can gain momentum.

Whereas a counter to a Thrust to the Chest or Face, is a Technique at the Final stage of its action-that has all its momentum, therefore in some ways, the Counter relies more upon Luck and Manual Dexterity than say the Low Block example, because of where/when and how it occurs.

That's the basic gist of what I ment.

[snailfist]

So by bigger you essentially mean techniques that require more commitment from the attacker. I agree then that the "smaller" techniques are more practical, particularly against someone who ha some idea of what they are doing.
However...

Apparently most knife attacks are frenzied affairs witht the attacker hyped up on adrenalin.

Are you[r? (sic)] knife defences taking this into account

most schools I've seen train against stepping punches holding the knife, never happens in reality.

This to me would suggest that in many cases there was a great deal of commitment from the attacker.
In such an instance, would a technique that is designed to work against that level of commitment not in fact be better than one that, albeit more practical without that commitment, still often requires matching force with force like that radial X-block?

Discuss! :D

[SoKKlab]

So by bigger you essentially mean techniques that require more commitment from the attacker. I agree then that the "smaller" techniques are more practical, particularly against someone who ha some idea of what they are doing.
However...

This to me would suggest that in many cases there was a great deal of commitment from the attacker.
In such an instance, would a technique that is designed to work against that level of commitment not in fact be better than one that, albeit more practical without that commitment, still often requires matching force with force like that radial X-block?

Discuss! :D

Hmm,
I don't want to theorise too much about a b c...

Basically going back to the beginning of this thread, my surmisation was that most anti-blade techniques in Ju Jitsu do not represent a realistic method. This is based upon my Experience, what I've seen, been around, or been involved in.

I feel pretty much the same way about most anti-knife techniques in most Martial Arts that I have seen.

Most (Generalising) Knife attacks in 'Real life' (tm) are Attempted Assasinations of one sort or another.

Either you never see the thing and then you are stabbed, or the attack is (as the Mad Frank quote states) Frenzied, in that it is continuous fast multiple strikes stabs and or slashes...they don't require much in the way of over-commitment by the attacker, because anything that the body tends to do in clusters, is just that, a rapid group....

So therefore when I first started doing Ju Jitsu, my feelings were that the techniques are over-optimistic/ require much over-commitment on behalf of the attacker and/ or Require the Assistance of Our Lady of the Rhondda......

I still feel the same about them. Although anything is better than nothing.

Regarding the Low Block, the reason why it is a more 'realistically applicable' technique, is that it tries to neutralise the threat close to the attackers body, keeping the knife well away from you, it also attacks the attack, this in itself is to me, much better than waiting to try to redirect/ ensnare/ counter.

[kempo-kid]

Basicly you will get nicely sliced during a knife attack. My kempo has helped me more with this situation rather than my jitsu. As a general rule if it's a stab get on the out side of the arm, and kick the knee cap, then peg it. If it is a swinging roundhouse type of attack you need to strike the attacking arm before it gets any momentum going. I usually teach my students to strike the incoming wrist then attack either the eyes or go for a KO

KK :twisted:

[Aegis]

In all fairness kk, you've only been doing jitsu for a couple of months (if your the same kk from pj ;)). The knife defences tend to get much more realistic/difficult once you get up the grades, assuming Aiuchi still progress in much the same way as TJF. At the lower levels you tend to focus on very commited, exagerated attacks for which you learns some defences. At the higher levels you start to do the same defences on an attacker who isn't being so co-operative, dealing with short fast slashes and thrusts which retreat as soon as they miss or are stopped. Everything gets very tricky at that level, and you really start seeing why knife attacks are so dangerous

Welcome to MAP ;)

[SoKKlab]

The knife defences tend to get much more realistic/difficult once you get up the grades, assuming Aiuchi still progress in much the same way as TJF. At the lower levels you tend to focus on very commited, exagerated attacks for which you learns some defences. At the higher levels you start to do the same defences on an attacker who isn't being so co-operative, dealing with short fast slashes and thrusts which retreat as soon as they miss or are stopped. Everything gets very tricky at that level, and you really start seeing why knife attacks are so dangerous

I was trying, in this thread to NOT start having to post War Stories but.......I don't need to see why Knife attacks are so dangerous in a Dojo-I've seen stabbings first hand in places I have lived/ worked and have been attacked with bladed weapons in my life (and other weapons too).

I'm familiar with the Higher levels work in Aiuchi JJ etc, as I've done similar or near enough the same in other arts (since 1982 or thereabouts, on and off). I've not taken any grades in JJ through choice so far, but I mostly train with the higher grades, because of recognised past experience.

I'll agree that the work higher up is more useful and practical in all the systems of Ju Jitsu that I have seen. And is more akin to something approaching realism, it still doesn't convince me though....

I'm looking into other Blade etc Work at present.

[Aegis]

I wasn't trying to claim that our knife defences are perfect. But then I personally believe that no knife defence is, excluding ranged weapons and not being there. I've not got anything to back up my thoughts on this, I've never seen or defended against a stabbing, but I have seen other some other styles' knife work which just seemed wrong to me. I believe I have enough experience to see where some of the problems lie (poor control of the weapon, nothing between the weapon and the body in case of a slip, throwing while holding the knife close, etc). I think the principles of knife defence in jitsu are sound: control the weapon, control the attacker, disarm/floor and disarm

Anyway, I'll get off my soap box ;)

[SoKKlab]

I wasn't trying to claim that our knife defences are perfect. But then I personally believe that no knife defence is, excluding ranged weapons and not being there. I've not got anything to back up my thoughts on this, I've never seen or defended against a stabbing, but I have seen other some other styles' knife work which just seemed wrong to me. I believe I have enough experience to see where some of the problems lie (poor control of the weapon, nothing between the weapon and the body in case of a slip, throwing while holding the knife close, etc). I think the principles of knife defence in jitsu are sound: control the weapon, control the attacker, disarm/floor and disarm

Anyway, I'll get off my soap box ;)

Fair Enough. I'm balancing my experience with what's being taught. And there's nothing essentially wrong with what's being taught either...

My feelings are the same now, as they were at the beginning of the thread. The principles are definitely sound.

I'm still pretty much unconvinced by most anti-blade stuff that I've been exposed to (In most arts), but I'll keep looking.

[Matt_Bernius]

SoKKlab,

Just out of curiosity, what arts do you feel have good responses to knife attacks. For example, I'm a big proponent of Filipino Knife Tapping (as performed in the Pekiti Tersia system) as an effective tool in blade defense. I find it very well thought out tactically, easy to execute and an effective weapon clearer.

Based on feedback in a number of forums I'm also very interested in the S.T.A.B. system (and I need to just order the videos).

So what do you think works?

- Matt

[SoKKlab]

SoKKlab,

Just out of curiosity, what arts do you feel have good responses to knife attacks. For example, I'm a big proponent of Filipino Knife Tapping (as performed in the Pekiti Tersia system) as an effective tool in blade defense. I find it very well thought out tactically, easy to execute and an effective weapon clearer.

Based on feedback in a number of forums I'm also very interested in the S.T.A.B. system (and I need to just order the videos).

So what do you think works?

- Matt

I've been looking into various Filipino Systems and the aforementioned S.T.A.B programme.

Whether it works....??

Let's hope so-else you end up a Pin Cushion...

[Matt_Bernius]

Yeah, the thought of playing pin cushion definitely does not appeal to me.

Take a look at Pekiti. Knife tapping is an effective method of clearning a weapon when dealing with a slashing attack. It also keeps the stab in mind. It's a great platform from which you can move into strikes (or grappling/locking/throwing) if one is so inclined.

- Matt

[Kogusoku]

I think that it's very important to know the reality of being attacked with a knife. If you try and do a Steven Seagal, you're going to be either maimed or killed outright.

Jujutsu, even in the feudal era was a secondary combative art. Primary arts were weapon arts and horsemanship. Jujutsu was a close combat skill which allowed a warrior who had lost or broken his weapon to subdue and disarm another enemy in order to REARM. Finding and using the most expedient weapon at hand has always been one of the main principles of the older jujutsu ryuha. For an example of this, Takenouchi ryu, Japan's oldest recorded systemized school of jujutsu which is still extant teaches jujutsu kata using everyday objects against blade weilding enemies. There are kata employing the use of cooking pot lids, umbrellas and other items.

Now there aren't that many sword weilding enemies around these days, but the underlying principles of the school still have a lot of use in today's world.

Jujutsu is an insurance policy, is ensures to give you skills to give you enough time to secure a weapon for use, or to escape. It should be noted that there aren't many classical schools of jujutsu that deal with blade weilding attackers unarmed. Believe it or not, most classical jujutsu kata that involve a weapon weilding assailant and involve a defender who is also armed (usually with a smaller weapon) and uses the weapon in conjunction with grappling techniques, such as strikes, sweeps and throws.

[Matt_Bernius]

Gunyo Kogusoku,

That's a great post. I'm interested to learn more about Takenouchi ryu as it sounds like it may address issues I have with Ju Jitsu's defenses against modern weapons. Your points about it being a secondary combative art are excellent.

I have heard from a number of sources (including my Kali instructors) that some Japanese arts had "hidden" blade applications as you noted in your final paragraph. I call them hidden only because the integration of weapons into ones defense has not been mentioned by instructors that I have talked with. Hearing it again is a good reminder that it's in there.

- Matt

[Kogusoku]

Matt,

It's a good thing now and then to focus on the steak and not the peas with combat arts. It keeps things in perspective.

Forgetting an art's true purpose can be detrimental to it's development and to it's practical application. There's a kind of myth that jujutsu is an unarmed combat system and granted, there are lots of unarmed techniques but there are also quite a few techniques where you are lightly armed too, so it's more of a close combat system, rather than an unarmed one.

Cheers,

-Steve

[Matt_Bernius]

Steve,

Clearly your world view on the martial arts and mine are very similiar.

The issue I've had in the past with JJ instructors that I've run across in the past (and therefore, by proxy, my issue with JJ) is that I think they overemphasized the techniques without addressing the tactics in a modern situation (like using defenses for sword swings against 6 inch tactical folders). For more on that check my previous posts.

I'm all for the pragmatic application of any martial art. I think that TMA's are more than capible of being applied in modern situations. But I also think that one really needs to look at the steak (as you put it) of these arts to see how to make them work.

- Matt

[SoKKlab]

Finding and using the most expedient weapon at hand has always been one of the main principles of the older jujutsu ryuha. For an example of this, Takenouchi ryu, Japan's oldest recorded systemized school of jujutsu which is still extant teaches jujutsu kata using everyday objects against blade weilding enemies. There are kata employing the use of cooking pot lids, umbrellas and other items.

Sounds very Much like the Awud Thai (Any weapon/ Any Circumstance) system, as part of the whole Thai Fighting System Pahuyuth.

Gunyo-Any Links showing examples of Takenouchi Ryu's usage of Everyday Weapons???? Photos, Examples?

[Matt_Bernius]

Sounds very Much like the Awud Thai (Any weapon/ Any Circumstance) system, as part of the whole Thai Fighting System Pahuyuth.

Gunyo-Any Links showing examples of Takenouchi Ryu's usage of Everyday Weapons???? Photos, Examples?

*jaw drops*

SoKKlab,

My god man, is there any obscure system that you don't know something about. I love reading your posts!

And I second the request for links to information about Takenouchi.

- Matt

[JamesyBHOY]

For people who are interested in the STAB System

http://www.karltanswell.com/

They are only Taught in Manchester,So the best that most of us could do is Buy the Video for £20 in P&P,International I'm not sure if it is the same,

http://www.karltanswell.co.uk/shop/stab.html

It would have been better if they had given you a couple of clips or at the very least a few screenshots,So that people have the ability to preview exactly what they will be spending there money on.

My Family own a Security Company,where they supply Bouncers,Watchmen,Security Guards,Stewards to Pubs,Clubs,Building Sites,Offices,Sporting Events etc.I used to be an amateur boxer + Have now been studying Hapkido for 6 years,So from the age of 17,I could handle myself pretty well & used to accompany my uncles when they went to pay they guys at the end of their shifts or if there was trouble and they called for assistance then we responded.So I'm now 22 & have seen all sorts of stuff from Bottles being stuck into faces,To people being stabbed in the arse.We train in unarmed comabt in scenarios that involve Knifes,Bottles,Pool Cues,Golf Clubs & even in training,You can see that there is no truly effective way or style of dealing with an armed attacker,Especially if they are a stranger.So everybody should always brace themselves to be hit by the instrument that the attacker is brandishing,Should a confrontation be needed,The trick is to minimise the damage,Knife better to be slashed,stabbed in the arm rather than face/body which everybody already knows.

So anyway,With all my training,I was coming home from a club a couple of weeks ago,So my Friends all live on the opposite side of the city,So they went one way and I had a 10 min walk to a Taxi Rank on my own.I got there and there was these 2 teenager couldn't have been any more than 16 or so,There was 3 taxis left in the rank and as i crossed the road to enter they approached my they were obviously drunk/drugs & asked my for the time,I had seen this so often where this leads to a mugging,So i replied that I didn't have a watch then proceeded to try and manoveur around them which they countered and they said something along the lines around you trying to be funny you <profanity removed>,So right away I knew that it was trouble they were after,So I hit the Big Mouth(that done all the talking)and dropped him like a sack of <profanity removed>,the other 1 froze and looked stunned,So I ran over to the nearest taxi and he wouldn't open the door and drove off,so i went towards the other 2,Both shook their heads & I knew they wasn't going to take me either,Just at that moment I seen movement with the side of my eye and as I turned,There was another Ned coming out of the Bushes,Which I can now only assume was taking a <profanity removed> of wahtever,So he clambers over a little fence(which couldn't have been no more than 2 foot),So he looks over and sees his buddies & the other one that I mistakingly left standing shouted over what I had done,So the Mouth starts that he is going to cut me up,So I brace myself for a knife,He takes a few steps open the tracksuit top & out he pulls a MACHETE.The moment I seen it & I'm not afraid to admit it I crapped myself & there was no way that I was going to attempt to even take him on,So now it's out fully ,He starts running towards me,Waving/Slashing wildly,Brain Freeze is beginning to kick in and as I retreat back I seen a Shopping Trolley & Run over grab it with him at the front now & me at the back of it,So as he tries to manouveur around to me I keep turning the trolly to keep the front of it facing him,So after a few seconds he stops trying to get around then I push it as hard as I can right into Him & when it hits and staggers him back,I leg it into the bushes & over a concrete wall.So no matter what kind of training you have taken even with real knives as I had previously trained with,Once the unexpected came I simply wasn't prepared for it.So that's my advice to everyone when it comes to facing an armed attacker expect the unexpected.ie you know they are armed & expect them to pull out a flick knife but instead out comes a Rambo Knife,If you prepare for it before it happens then it will stop the psychological Paralysing Pain that comes with the unexpected when it comes to a situation like that in future Imagine if it had been a group of men & not a couple of teenagers.If it hadn't been for that trolley,all my years of training in Boxing,Hapkido,Unarmed Combat wouldn't have counted for crap & I definitely wouldn't have been here now.

[Matt_Bernius]

Great post. And thank you for the additional info on S.T.A.B.

That's a great story. Thank you for sharing. You hit a clear case of where the weapon trumps everything. I'm glad for you the trolley was there!

- Matt

[SoKKlab]

*jaw drops*

SoKKlab,

My god man, is there any obscure system that you don't know something about. I love reading your posts!

And I second the request for links to information about Takenouchi.

- Matt

Haha Matt,
Thank You! It's the Product of a Mis-spent Youth....

So Takenouchi-Ryu then....

[Kogusoku]

You won't find much about Takenouchi ryu on the internet in English. There are a few websites that have some information on the ryuha, but you won't find many pictures.

Takenouchi ryu ryu guide at Koryu.com (http://www.koryu.com/guide/takenouchi.html)

Seifukan Dojo in Hawaii (http://www.furyu.com/wayne/Seifukan/index.html)

You won't find any photos of everyday items, since it's a small but interesting part of this school's large syllabus. Takenouchi ryu is mainly recognised for it's grappling techniques involving the use of daggers. They also train in kenjutsu, naginata, bojutsu, kusarigama (sickle & chain) yari (spear) and other weapons too. It's a comprehensive system that focuses on close combat.

-Steve

[Aegis]

If you have to blank out a couple of letters to avoid the profanity filters don't use the words in the post. I've gone through and removed them all, but next time I'll delete it instead. Basic rule is that if you'd say it in front of your boss' 5 year old kid then it's ok to say on the forum ;)

Welcome to MAP

[Matt_Bernius]

Thanks Steve. I'll look into it!

- Matt

[Kogusoku]

No worries mate.

Enjoy

[snailfist]

I thought the forum a little short on controversy so i dragged this up again :D

SoKKlab, are there *ANY* knife defenses you consider effective?
If so, are there any knife attacks that you can find no adequate defense to?

It has been stressed in several places on MAP that one should train in knife offense as well as defense.

Is an assailant actually likely to know what they are doing with a knife, or is it more probable that the scally who's just pulled one on me's working knowledge of the blade extends as far as holding it by the handle rather than the pointy bit :p?

Is there a danger that by training properly with a knife, one might run the risk of almost being too clever, expecting feints or bluffs from someone who isn't going to produce them and defending accordingly?

And does such training actually help one defend oneself against an assailant armed with a knife, or merely make one more aware of ones inability to do so (and so provide more motivation to cross train in sprinting? :eek: )

[Lobsang]

When I invent it you'll have to learn my martial art consisting entirely off running away:rolleyes:
_______________________

I’d rather be a live cawed than a noble corps.

[Matt_Bernius]

An knowledgable knife attacker is dangerous. An unskilled knife attacker is dangerous. To assume a person is one or the other is dangerous. Notice a pattern?

Here are the rules for a good defense:
1. Get off the line of the weapon. Perhaps the most important (and my big issue with the X block). If the defense fails and you're still in the path you get hit.

2. Intercept the weapon. Most likely done with your hand. Your reenforcing the movement with this. It isn't necessarily a static block. There are a number of downward knife defenses where you WANT to keep the knife moving.

3. Isolate and check the weapon. This doesn't mean grab. But what it does mean is that you have a connection to the weapon that let's you know where it is and you have done something (move, trap, etc) that prevents the weapon from re-entering combat. This is where most folks get stuck and end up wrestling with a resisting opponent.

4. Punish. In most cases (some Aikido and Ju Jitsu aside) up until this point nothing has been done to convince the attacker to stop the attack. So now striking comes into the equasion. You need to cause maximumn pain in minimal time. Remember this person has attacked you with a knife. In my world (and in many courts) that's intent to kill right there. And you can't mamby pamby a response, especially as you don't have a weapon. So typically this means attacks to the face or other extremely vulnurable spots. The goal is to establish dominance.

5. If so inclinded disarm. It's the least important part of the defense.

Any defense that has all of these aspects to it I consider to be solid. As soon as you start to remove any of these I question whether the average student will be able to execute it under duress.

So Snail, to your point, I really don't care the specific technique if it meets the above criteria.

- Matt

[snailfist]

I can't argue much with that.
What do people think about knife attack training? Why is it considered essential by some and what benefits does it actually provide?

[Matt_Bernius]

Having trained knife for a number of years I think it provides the following things:

1. Respect, not necessarily fear of the knife. There is a health amount of fear in respect, however, it isn't irrational.

2. An understanding of the knife's capabilities and shortcomings.

3. An understanding of the function of the knife. Someone one started a thread about how to use a knife to disable a person. An experience knife student understands that knives aren't about disabling a person, they are much more final.

4. An understanding of body mechanics relative to the knife. Also an understanding of how to approach knife defense (ie. never watch the knife).

That's a bit of it. Personally I think all of us (at least here in the states) at a minimumn should get some basic training in things like knife and gun. It goes a long way to breaking down longstanding myths about both.

- Matt

[snailfist]

And so to the next step of any worthwhile concept- application- in the form of the MAP-approved knife defense register :D
Post the techniques that you consider effective to share and for debate, remembering to mention the attack they defend against!
I'll set the ball rolling:
defending against a frontal lunge to the lower abdomen (knife held in right hand):
Open the door to the inside of the arm and block outwards with your left hand, fist clenched. With your right hand, form an X with your left to prevent the knife being guided towards your neck by your outwards block. With your right hand at their elbow and left just below their wrist, begin to roll their arm into (what I think is) a key lock (it will be the "police" lock upon completion of the move) Turning on your right foot (which should be nearest them) pivot towards them and pull their arm with you, bending it at the elbow with your right, your left beginning to guide the forearm up their back, until they are hunched over on your immediate left. To complete the lock, rest your left hand on their right shoulder and step across their body, trapping their left foot with yours.
Opitional extra: push the elbow up their back and past the shoulder. :D

[dark_blade15]

I have trained in jujutsu for about an year and a half. I havent had to confront anybody with a knife but this is what i think. In my opinion jujutsu techniques are effective against knife attacks. And even if you think they are not effective you should practice them in a way that they are effective when they are needed. One thing i know about knife defense is to first get away of the line of fire when the blow is thrown or redirect the blow deflecting it in some way. After that or while you do that hit the guy to stun him for a couple of miliseconds, then do your technique with speed and im sure it will work.

I hope I helped :)

[silentwarrior]

I tjink if you have a good instructor he/she will tell you that 99% of the time knife disarms wont work or something to that affect.

Someone stated they try to stay away from blocking techniques. does this mean you perfer ones that involve parries? ( i like those techniques also). Because obviously inorder to disarm someone you must control the hand(more specificaly the thumb). Just wonderin what else you try to use.

[Kogusoku]

My jujutsu teacher in Japan told me that when an enemy tries to attack with a knife, either get a weapon in return or run away and get a weapon. Unarmed defence against a knife is a last resort. Some classical jujutsu schools have tanto dori and some don't.

[Florida Warlock]

I just use the disarm often shown in martial arts scenes on TV. Ya know, where you bend your opponent's arm backwards at the elbow. I almost hurt my friend, in practice, badly from that... Of course I don't take ju jitsu.. so, back to the JKD and boxing threads.

[mhyst]

i agree that the knife techniques in jujutsu are not very realistic and would be hard to pull off, mostly because almost all of the techniques require u see the attack and move out of the way (at least to some extent) faster than the attacker moves. of course any technique is better than none, even if it's screwed up and could save ur life. but yeah, the knife techniques are the only thing i don't love about jujutsu

[l_h01234]

Ju Jutsu certainly is the art to practice Knife Defences. These techniques have been tested by people and only the techniques that worked get passed down from teacher to student. I have executed Kote Gaeshi in a knife defence perfectly. Use your knowledge sensably though!

[Matt_Bernius]

These techniques have been tested by people and only the techniques that worked get passed down from teacher to student.What proof do you have of this? Do you know of cases of them being regularly tested outside of a demo environment? Have you tried free sparring with the knife techiques? Have you ever heard of techniques being removed or added from the current codafied Ju Jitsu systems?

I'm not trying to be a jerk. It's just I've seen a lot of arts claim stuff like this. I've seen very few really carry through. And for the reasons I noted, I just don't think a lot of traditional JJ knife techniques will hold up to real testing (and by that I mean against a resisting attacker using a blunt weapon). Some will, but there are more than a few dosies in there.

- Matt