Questions from a soon-to-be beginner

[jherazob]

Hi. I'm new to all this. I wanted your opinion on a couple of things ninjutsu-related. It may be a long post though.

For the first question, some background. I'm a South-American that works on the day to pay for his studies at night. There are only 2 ninjutsu dojos in the whole country (Colombia), and both of them are on different cities than mine. If everything goes well i'll graduate next year, and maybe even move to the capital of the country, where there's one of the dojos i mentioned. So, it'll be at the very least 6 months before i can start training. So, the question is, what can i do to train myself in the meanwhile?

Second question, related to the first: In ninjutsu.com a Richard Van Donk sells a video course that promises to take you to 1st dan without even having a sensei. Your opinion/experience on this?

Third: A friend got a book called "Knife Throwing Techniques of the Ninja", by a Michael Peters. From my inexperienced point of view the book seems credible and useful, but i wondered if somebody here had seen it or can attest to the quality of the material (or lack of it).

Fourth: As far as i know ninjutsu has a high lethality on it's techniques due to it's combative roots. I wanted to know that if you're trained enough you can, say, inhabilite an opponent without causing him permanent injuries or death, as i don't really want to end up maiming or killing a mugger or something like that, just defend myself and anybody that's with me at the time.

Fifth: I once read that training in martial arts helped you to be more resillient to common diseases like colds and stuff like that as your body get stronger. Is that true?

That's it for now, too many questions for one post :)

[Jim]

1. It may be worthwhile to post this on a general discussion forum so's us non-ninja's can answer, and

2. I lost count... :D

[SoKKlab]

Second question, related to the first: In ninjutsu.com a Richard Van Donk sells a video course that promises to take you to 1st dan without even having a sensei. Your opinion/experience on this?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
He may be the bestest Correspondence/ By Video teacher in the world, but it sounds like a Crock of Fermented Excrement to me. Surely stuff like this would give Ninjitsu a bad name?

But Hell, if you can't get to a dojo, then anything that helps your studies, may be of worth it. But no Video course should make promises like that.

Besides Dick Van Donk? Come on someone is pulling our plonkers or Donkers in this case.

Regarding yr training, if there is not a ninjitsu class near you, then get yrself to another Martial Art in yr city and start training in it, even if it is not yr first choice, just so that by the time you maybe get to go to Ninjitsu in Bogota, you'll at least be fitter, more co-ordinated and have a grounding in basic techniques...

[Brad Ellin]

Questions in order:
#1) Practice rolling. Forward, backwards, side, diving. Ukemi is the term for it and it means various things - breakfalls, recovery, absorbing. If you don't know how to roll properly, find someone to help you learn.

Dang, gotta go back to work. Be back to finsih in a little while.

[Brad Ellin]

Okay, I'm back.
#2) Opinion only. While Mr. Van Donk may be an accomplished martial artist in his own right, you can not learn Ninjutsu from watching a video. If that were the case, I'd be the Grandmaster, instead of Hatsumi. Now, please remember that Ihave not seen these videos, and this is opinion only. You need a teacher, someone to give you feedback. You need a fellow practioner, higher or lower rank, to give you feedback. How do you know if your technique is good if you don't get feedback whether physical or verbal or emotional. How di you expect to get the "feeling" fo rthe technique, without experiencing it?
So. nope, I wouldn't put much stock in anyone's videos promising anything.

#3) No opinion. Haven't seen the book. Name rings a bell, but that's about it. Opinion on learning knife throwing from a book, yes. You're feedback results each time the knife leaves your hand. Target, hit or miss? A teacher can help you get rid of bad habits, but a book can still set you on the right path.

#4)"I wanted to know that if you're trained enough you can, say, inhabilite an opponent without causing him permanent injuries or death"
Yes. Of course. Even though the techniques are combat oriented, YOU decide in all cases how far to take the technique. Your opponent may influence your decision, but ultimately the final decision is your's alone. Only when it is ABSOLUTELY necessary, should you take a life.

[SilentNightfall]

In response to Question # 2, I will tell you right now that you cannot learn ninjutsu through videos. I have the entire collection of Mr. Van Donk's home study course that I use solely as a reminder of certain techniques or placemeny of the hands, feet, etc. during a certain technique. Sure there are some things like ukemi that you might get the general idea of by watching it on tape, but let's face it, tapes cannot give you immediate feedback. You need that feedback to prevent yourself from forming bad habits, which could occur simply because you didn't perceive something correctly in a video and then practice it wrong a hundred times because of such. I'd definitely steer clear of videos for now, though RVD does have a video specifically for rolling so if you take Brad's advice and practice your ukemi, you may want to test that one out, though I guarantee that the more intricate details will not be explained to you. For that you need a instructor.

For Question # 4, I definitely agree with Brad. You learn to control your opponent and the entire situation. Is your opponent using lethal force? Than you may be forced to as well if you find that you cannot subdue them otherwise. But yes, you definitely learn to take control of a conflict and end it on your terms.

Hope this helps you. Good luck!

[jherazob]

Thanks for the replies :)

Well, my common sense was telling me that those videos were not exactly a good idea, but wanted information from somebody with more experience than me anyway.

A web search on the book gave me the publisher's page (at: http://butokukai.com/product191.html and the author also made a shuriken book too at: http://butokukai.com/product194.html), but no good reviews (the most detailed was: "Good illustrations, especially grips"). I'll have to ask my friend on the practice knife that came with the book :)

And is good to know that the art is not necessary lethal (i was picturing an image of somebody trying to surprise me from behind, me breaking his spine in 3 different places and then "Ooops!" :) ). You don't know with all the hype around ninjutsu (by the way, is there a page or something that shows the difference between real-life and movie-and-games ninjutsu? i know that real-life ninjutsu doesn't have people flying, walking on walls, jumping on top of houses in one go, dissappearing in a puff of smoke and the like, but i don't know what's really possible under the limits of reality).

Kurohana: You suggested practicing the rolls, right? Apart from the video that SilentNightfall mentioned, do you know any source i can use to learn to do that (books, webpages, etc.)? i remember when i tried to do one of those rolls many years ago and failed because i was close to breaking mi neck and ended in pain on the floor thinking that it wasn't such a smart idea :) That suggests too that i would benefit from that training :)

I don't know much athletic people (i'm a computer guy, and the athletic expertise of all my friends combined wouldn't really be a lot as we computer people tend to be kinda unathletic, one of the reasons i want to train), so if it were something i could do alone it'd be great.

[Solane]

As Sokklab said try another martial art untill you are able to start at ninjutsu. Judo is very good for learning rolls and breakfalls as is Aikido and Ju Jitsu. They will certainly get you in shape. You will also get feedback from instructors.
Any martial art will get you in shape and give you a feel for things, try a few if you want, and stick with the one that you feel comfortable with, untill you get a chance to try ninjutsu.

[SilentNightfall]

Do keep in mind, however, that other arts do some things differently and it may be hard to adjust from doing it say...the aikido way to doing it the ninjutsu way. However, if you are going to do another art in the mean time, Aikido follows very similar principles in a lot of things that they do. Otherwise, just try picking up ukemi until you can train. Six months isn't an incredibly long time and starting another art only to leave it right away seems disrespectful and a waste of time.

[xplasma]

Originally posted by Solane
As Sokklab said try another martial art untill you are able to start at ninjutsu. Judo is very good for learning rolls and breakfalls as is Aikido and Ju Jitsu. They will certainly get you in shape. You will also get feedback from instructors.
Any martial art will get you in shape and give you a feel for things, try a few if you want, and stick with the one that you feel comfortable with, untill you get a chance to try ninjutsu.

Aikido rolls are very different then ninjtusu rolls. Ninjutsu rolls are about landing and using the ground to roll. Aikido start rolls before then hit the ground. Why? Aikido rolls are taught with falls as another way to fall. Ninjutsu rolls are part of Shinobi-jutsu and designed to everything from falls to escape to basic movements.

Note: I got a lecture by a 1st dan in my Aikido for doing a ninjutsu drive roll in class. We were doing rolling over a person for was on all fours (about a 1 or 2 feet off the ground.) So I didn't want to get hurt so I did a "real" roll. He gave me a lecture on how that was wrong and showed be the correct way. The noise of he feet and hands on the ground on the exiting on the roll made me glad he was on a mat because any other surface would of hurt him a lot.

[Brad Ellin]

I too studied Aikido for awhile. However, when doing my ukemi, the instructor was very pleased. Yes, it was slightly different, but I made no (or little) sound and recovered safely each time.

[Sonshu]

Judo/Jujitsu people make a lot of noise yet I am pretty darn quiet :D

As for the video's mentioned - you might be able to get a good insight and some good technques from it but many you will find hard I think - as was said you would be better doing another MA like Aikido first of all then use the video's to bolt onto this then refine it all in a Taijitsu class.

The restrain Taijitsu techniques do work very well so you should be able to control the mugger, also it will improve your awareness etc as well to anticipate potential danger.

[jherazob]

I'm in a bit of disadvantage here because, as far as i've seen, there are almost no martial arts dojos in this city, there's not even a "Martial arts" section on the yellow pages, only 2 taekwondo dojos listed under gyms, so i'd have to keep looking and asking around, but for the looks of it seems like i won't be able to choose the martial arts class i'd go to in the meanwhile. Do you realize now why do i want to move? :)

So is either getting into a taekwondo class or start practicing the ukemi as suggested (or both, wouldn't hurt i think). The first is self-explanatory, but on the second, apart from the video that was mentioned earlier in the thread, what other suggestion do you make? is there a webpage/book/somethingelse i can use to get ideas for practicing the ukemi?

[Sonshu]

There must be a Judo club or somthing near buy?

They are everywhere on the planet, try local councils and schools etc as clubs often use school grounds for training. It may be the advertising is just a little slow in your neck of the woods.

If you have someone to train with the vids might help but there would be pretty pointless if its just you.

[Solane]

I did Judo for 8 or 9 years before starting Ninjutsu, and didnt find adjusting to the ninjutsu way of doing things very hard. But it did get me very fit and gave me a good grounding I feel.

[jherazob]

Ok, i think you guys underestimate the backwardness of this place (meaning i don't really think there's a jujitsu or aikido club in here), but i know who to ask already, so i'll be doing some research :)

Anyway, i came out with an idea that should've been obvious from the beginning: contacting the instructor of the Bujinkan dojo i'm hoping to go to once i move. Yeah, i hate when i miss the obvious ideas :) I mean, who could be in a better position to directly help me on that respect? maybe somebody in the same city, but that's not the case :) Anyway, i'll contact him today (found the webpage and email) and i'll be posting any progress here.

I'll get the "Rolling made easy" Van Donk video as soon as i recover some spending capacity (beginning of semester can be hard for the wallet) and start practicing. But i still hope i could find written lessons (books, webpages, etc.) for that, as i think it's better than videos as long as it has some minimal illustrations.

Ah! one i forgot before: is there a need of masochistic (or sadistic if you're the teacher :) ) stretching exercises like those on the Kickboxer movie or something? i imagine that flexibility is a must in any martial art no matter the origin, but as i don't know much about the style itself of ninjutsu i couldn't really say how much would be the importance, or if it's something that's automatically developed by doing katas and similar training, or if it'd be worth it for me to train on that too.

[SilentNightfall]

Flexibility can definitely add you in your training, but it is not a necessity. Ninjutsu adapts to you and your body type, no matter how flexible. No where does it say that you must be able to do a split to do ninjutsu. I would say stretch to gain flexibility if you are truly interested in gaining the benefits of such. I, personally, don't soend too much time on this, but then again, I'm a busy guy and devote my training time to more important things.

[Sonshu]

As the styles are very linked - the Nagiwaza school throwing etc will be perfect from your Judo stuff.

The rolls are slightly different and there is less strength empasis on throws in Taijitsu as you can use strikes to soften people up.

Still its one of the best matching styles to Ninjitsu.

[Sonshu]

Was in response to Sloanes so sos for any confusion!

[Brad Ellin]

Legs. Cannot stress enough. The legs are VERY important in Taijutsu. Stretch them, massage them. From the toes to the hips. Keep them warm. Do squats (high rep low weight). I have found the Tai Chi warmups to be perfect for this.

[Sonshu]

As it makes it all much easier!

I used to be much more supple when I was doing Taijitsu full time.

[Goju]

You guys are like experts in ninjutsu right?? well I'm fourteen and always wanted to learn ninjutsu. Where I live (Ontario, Canada) the only worthwhile dojos teach TKD, Karate, and judo. My dojo teaches different courses that include Goju-Ryu, Jiujitsu, Kobudo, Tai Chi chuan, Muay Thai, and a basic self defense course for younger kids. In order for me to learn ninjutsu or Taijitsu I have to be sixteen, and live in Toronto, what the hell is that??

So, Since I live relatively close to Hamilton I'll probably go to university at Mcmaster and do goju there ( at the canadian goju-ryu headquarters) and when I get out I'll look around for ninjutsu dojo. Good Idea???

Anyway the nin/jiu jistu dojo in Toronto is called
"Crazy Ed's house of Death" I think thats a really stupid name for a dojo don't you????

"I am Rikimaru, I am a shadow" Tenshu Wrath of heaven PS2

[jherazob]

Ok, i received an answer from the mentioned sensei, and he informed me that there's a 9th kyu student here in the city that trains with a friend, so i may have a good chance of getting a training partner :D

I still wish there were a sensei in this city, but this is at least a good start.

d_rza: in http://www.winjutsu.com/winlinks.html there's a directory of Bujinkan dojos around the world. Look there. But i'd personally steer clear of any dojo calling itself like that, has the smell of a scam...

[chaozkingz]

"crazy ed's house of death?" no offence to anyone here, and i am not an expert in ninjutsu, but that doesn't sound like a place that will teach you the real meaning of the word "Nin" as in Ninja or Ninjutsu or Ninjukai.

for jherazob, a good tip when u wanna stretch is when u r watching tv, open your legs wide as much as you can :)

[chaozkingz]

u're leaving in about 6 months right? so just learn the rolls and breakfalls from him, as well as some basic stances, strikes & kicks. i will leave the throws until you get someone with more understanding to give you a proper introduction to the throwing techniques though

[Zamfoo]

EEUU is the spanish from of the USA. i have no clue what the second E and U mean.

[SilentNightfall]

Yes, that's correct. In Spanish, the United States is referred to as E.E.U.U. Also, Los Estados Unidos. It's a cultural thing.

[Goju]

Thanx alot Jherazob Thats a good site, I knew of some of those dojos and academys in canada i didnt know they taught those ma's THNX:p

[havoc123]

Originally posted by Kurohana
Legs. Cannot stress enough. The legs are VERY important in Taijutsu. Stretch them, massage them. From the toes to the hips. Keep them warm. Do squats (high rep low weight). I have found the Tai Chi warmups to be perfect for this.


the legs r important in anything u do its all a matter of the type of triaing and result u want to acheve, in this case i will definatly agree with kuro, what u want is endurance. but any time u feel that u can do more than 20 reps on the third set u do, its time to put on more weight.

I also weight train:D

[havoc123]

As for "crazy ed's house of death" remeber one thing when u train, its not the name its the teacher that matters. it could be called "the mighty dragon weasel of bacon" but if the teacher is good thats all that matters.... I'd give it a good backgound check if i were u tho, my Soke named my dojo "shin shin" and i would be interested in what soke would name a dojo "crazy ed's house of death"

[Bouk Teef]

Originally posted by jherazob

Second question, related to the first: In ninjutsu.com a Richard Van Donk sells a video course that promises to take you to 1st dan without even having a sensei. Your opinion/experience on this?


I feel home black belt courses are only there to exploit the ignorant. The ONLY way to learn any martial art is to get down to a dojo and train with other people of varying degrees of experience. Effectively you are buying a black belt which ultimately means that grade is worthless as imo that person has not earned it (paid for it, yes; earned it, no). If you have never felt the effectiveness of another person's technique then you can have no appreciation (sp?) for that particular technique.
I don't really care if people want to fork out cash for grades. Belt at the end of the day don't mean anything in the wider world. Unfortunately, these people will probably start to teach others once they have their black belt.

Originally posted by jherazob

Fourth: As far as i know ninjutsu has a high lethality on it's techniques due to it's combative roots. I wanted to know that if you're trained enough you can, say, inhabilite an opponent without causing him permanent injuries or death, as i don't really want to end up maiming or killing a mugger or something like that, just defend myself and anybody that's with me at the time.


Somebody with no training is more likely to kill another by striking a sensitive area. I suppose that if you have been trained in an art then you should know what effect striking a certain area of the body has.

[havoc123]

agreed, home couses should only be used to suppliment ur training in a school, if that. or i suppose u could sharpen the edges of the tape and use it for a really big suriken.

[cloudgodd]

I agree to a point, first if a book is all you have than it is better than nothing if you wounld like a good techniqe book look for The Arcanum of Ninja Tactics it is written by my JONIN Mark Grove it is not the same style you will be learning but I have seen his books and they are very good at explianing things, second as far a ninjitsu being lethal, defently but like said eariler that part is up to you, on inexperiance I still think the most dangerous NINJA in the world is a white belt on the first week of class.....but keep it easy defenetly train with that other guy learn some new stuff til you get to the DOJO but with that other student only having 6 months of training I would not take his word to heart.... and dont let him throw you.....

[ns_oni]

I remember before i did ninjutsu i read alot of Stephen K Hayes and Hatsumi's books, it helped alot.

[Goju]

Most people starting a new ma (if they have no previous experience) are looking for great physical exercise, a teacher that will show you how to fight using complex techniques, and lots of other great things like that. The problem is that many martial artists quit after a week of training because they are only learning "easy" or "boring" techniques which are actually important basic techniques that are necessary for further training. I read that this happens mainly with ninjitsu as people sometimes (without reading into it) will start with that "ninja" word in their head and become excited thinking that they will be a ninja warrior in no time. Depending on the dojo and age group the first week of training can be very easy and boring, or too hard for some people. At the end of the article it said the best advice is going into training with lots of knowledge from reading books about the subject, an open mind to allow in new concepts, and a positive attitude to put up with the things that you don't like right from the start and think about how they are helping you and what are doing (multiple exercises, running drills etc).

[havoc123]

Actually one really good book is "A beginners guide to ninpo" now u may be saying "well what the hell is ninpo?" Ninpo is the higher art of the the martial art ninjutsu and it covers more than just the tai-jutsu and weapons. Not only does it make u stronger physicaly but mentaly as well. I wouldnt be half the man i am now if i hadnt started taking ninpo.
I dont mean to blast or bash other styles or schools but in my opinion Genbukan ninpo is the best, although im sure my Bujinken brothers and sisters will dissagree with me seeing as how they hate Tanemaura Soke
I also suggest that when u find a school make sure that u have to work for ur belt and gi and that its not just given to u. I would also make sure that it takes a long time to get ur black belt in my school its atleast 5 years. Again u may be saying "5 years? oh screw that" But this is only to insure that u know the material.

[SilentNightfall]

Do keep in mind that individuals mileage may vary, as it were. No dojo should say, "Well, no student is ever getting a black belt in under five years." Some people train more than others, some learn faster than others, etc. And Havoc, it is not universally accepted that Ninpo and Ninjutsu are seperate. Some just like to use the two terms to make it easier to refer to some things. Hatsumi-sensei uses the two terms interchangeably, however.

As for hating Tanemura, not everyone has something against him. Some just feel he is not the proper source for Ninjutsu training. This is generally the opinion solely because he was Hatsumi-sensei's student. Opinions vary all over the place. Just don't assume that everyone has a grudge against the grandmaster of the Genbukan.

[havoc123]

i suppose u r right in saying that. but u have to agree with me that getting ur black belt in a year is a little odd right?

And as for hating Tanemaura soke i suppose ur right yet again on that subject. Its just everyone i have met that takes Bujinkan seems to light up when they hear his name mentioned.
Personaly i dont have anything against the practitioners of Bujinkan or hatsumi. In the end who can say which is the better art? Genbukan? Bujinkan? Jinekan? i guess it's like what happened between the roman catholic and the greek orthodox churchs. No one really knows who is right

[ns_oni]

ive never heard of anyone going black belt in a year, except for tkd.

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

Not everyone in the Bujinkan hates the other organizations. Some of us are happy to consider all three major organizations equally valid, and ignore the politics stuff.

I think black belt in one year would be suspicious. Three years, minimum, if the person goes to classes and practices consistently. I very much doubt I'll get there before five years, if that (I take 2 - 3 classes per week).

[havoc123]

Obviously you all have not been infected with with disgrace to the martial arts called villaries. They offer a program that makes u a black belt in a year. It's pathetic and people go out get their black belts but are tought nothing about the art the history or anything.
I had the missfortune of going to one of these schools in years past and learned first hand how poorly it was done. They practicaly gave u the belts u just had to show up for class.

Now as for other martial arts and my opinions on them id have to say that all martial arts are valid in some way and u r right not to get involved in the politics of it all. The only thing that could do is fill u with a blind hate for other people uve never met and never will meet. This cuts u off from the rest of the martial arts world and only acts as an obstilcal in your trainging and doesnt let u live to your full potential. Just look at jackie chan i cant even begin to fathom how many martial arts he knows and i bet he wouldnt be half as good as he is now if he didnt cross train like that.

[SilentNightfall]

Actually Havoc, Mr. Chan is more of a Chinese acrobat and has only recently begun real martial arts training. I believe he now practices Tai Chi Chuan, though I could be wrong. Just thought I'd point that out. Your point on the topic of closed-mindedness is, however, still very valid and I agree 100%.

[havoc123]

really i heard that his first style was Kung-fu although i dont know what type of Kung-fu

[Michiel]

Hello, I feel the need to respond since it seems to me that in this thread there is a little bit too much uhhh, nonsense. First, which one of the writers is actualy an authorized Bujinkan teacher? I guess not many, making your bold statements on video training and such very questionable. On the other hand, Shihan van Donk, one of the few private students of Hatsumi Sensei and 13th dan Bujinkan would be much more of a source I would personaly put my trust in. It seems that many people forget one of the most important things in ninjutsu, all is possible with everything if you set your heart and mind to it, even a video course. Ninpo Ik kan... keep playing

[SilentNightfall]

In all honesty, it truly is impossible to gain the amount of skills from a video course that going to a dojo can give you. I own Shihan Van Donk's set of videos as they are good for refreshing concepts and techniques learned in the dojo, but they could never have given me what little skill I now hold as a shodan. I would still be a beginner without one-on-one instruction from Papa-san (Ed Martin). Videos can't teach you the feeling or convey the little nuances that real training does. It just isn't possible. I've discussed this with numerous people, including Papa-san, and everyone has agreed that videos can only help to refresh something that you've previously felt/experienced. Otherwise, you won't be getting the whole technique. Just my two yen again, but I'm certainly not alone one this one. Ja!

[Michiel]

The mentioned videos, can teach you as much as you want. I am i guess 9th Kyu, since I never been graded or tested. I have trained with To-shin-do founder Stephen K Hayes, Hatsumi sensei, Van Donk Sensei, Tew Sensei, Dux Sensei, Tanemaru sensei, Takamatsu sensei and many other as I believe most of you have. For the last 20 years I have studies from most of the books, seen lots of videos and websites. I spoke and emailed with so many Soke guys, recently with a certain Soke yo Sato (hmm...) And I came to conclude that although to a certain degree your right, I would rather advise people to study with the videos then with 99% of what is out there calling him or her self a sensei. I have came to known Van Donk just a little bit over correspondence and have a whole lot of trust in him, and actualy just ordered the videos myself. Not because I want to be a black belt, or have a DaN, purple belt or anything like thatsince I believe it is meaningless anyways if you try to study martial ARTS. I hold some degrees in martial arts such as Iaido, Aikido. But will be a whitebelt all the way through. All I am trying to say is that the videos are great for people who want to learn ninjutsu or anything. Wheter people learn the essence from a video is as much farfetched as 99.9% of the dojos teaching you how to disarm a gun , a katana or a knive or much simpler counter a kick to the groin or a blow to the head, holding no relevance to real life scenarios for 99.9% of us out there that train. You take in as much as you can anyway you can, videos, taikais, dojos, books and life.... hopefully feeling better about what you do and who you are. Anyways.... man I am not this serious but I believe strongly that this particulare series of videos is great, much liek the videos from Hatsumi sensei. And i strongly believe many students will succeed even for such a trivial thing as a blackbelt by only using the videos and be much better martial artists then some people training with sensei in real life dojos.

Okidoki....

[Bouk Teef]

Wheter people learn the essence from a video is as much farfetched as 99.9% of the dojos teaching you how to disarm a gun , a katana or a knive or much simpler counter a kick to the groin or a blow to the head, holding no relevance to real life scenarios for 99.9% of us out there that train.

57.89% of statistics are made up on the spot

[Bouk Teef]

Serious reply now!

The mentioned videos, can teach you as much as you want. I am i guess 9th Kyu, since I never been graded or tested. I have trained with To-shin-do founder Stephen K Hayes, Hatsumi sensei, Van Donk Sensei, Tew Sensei, Dux Sensei, Tanemaru sensei, Takamatsu sensei and many other as I believe most of you have. For the last 20 years I have studies from most of the books, seen lots of videos and websites. I spoke and emailed with so many Soke guys, recently with a certain Soke yo Sato (hmm...) And I came to conclude that although to a certain degree your right, I would rather advise people to study with the videos then with 99% of what is out there calling him or her self a sensei.

I am sorry, I strongly disagree with you. The ONLY way to learn a MA is to get down to a dojo and train with other people of different skill levels. You are mistaken if you think otherwise. Yes, books and videos can be used for reference / encouragement but you cannot experience a MA through them.

All I am trying to say is that the videos are great for people who want to learn ninjutsu or anything. Wheter people learn the essence from a video is as much farfetched as 99.9% of the dojos teaching you how to disarm a gun , a katana or a knive or much simpler counter a kick to the groin or a blow to the head, holding no relevance to real life scenarios for 99.9% of us out there that train.

The whole point is that the movement for disarming a katana can be applied equally well to a baseball bat, stick or punch. Only the timing and distance changes. It would appear that you have missed the relevance.
I try and tell students that if a particular technique doesn't work for you then change it so that it does. Different builds and heights perform techniques in different ways. You cannot learn that from a video; its comes with experince in the dojo.

And i strongly believe many students will succeed even for such a trivial thing as a blackbelt by only using the videos and be much better martial artists then some people training with sensei in real life dojos.


Needless to say I disagree. But nevermind, we are just voicing opinons. If you are getting alot out of training the way you do then that is good and I wish you the best of luck.

[Michiel]

ア　そなんですか

[Michiel]

Anyways.. I am giving it a shot,

[Michiel]

I try and tell students that if a particular technique doesn't work for you then change it so that it does. Different builds and heights perform techniques in different ways. You cannot learn that from a video; its comes with experince in the dojo.

Thank you for your reply, but although I dont know much I do know that with the group of people I train we have all those advantages you just mentioned, with a video as our teacher. We all hold various degrees and those much desired DANs in respectively Aikido, Iaido, Kendo, Kyudo with the videos we have a great time mastering ninjutsu. Not all is as it appears it would appear

[Bouk Teef]

We all hold various degrees and those much desired DANs in respectively Aikido, Iaido, Kendo, Kyudo with the videos we have a great time mastering ninjutsu. Not all is as it appears it would appear

With the greatest of respect...
I take it those who studied in other arts attended classes and gradings rather than learning from a video? On a safety issue: some techniques taught in Ninjitsu are VERY dangerous (eg, chokes and certain throws with breaks) and should only be taught by qualified instructors. I would be surprised if these were included in your videos. If they are then I would question why as I find this irresponsible.

Analogy time:

Does a surgeon learn their trade soley from a book? Some hands on experince with qualified teachers is a must IMHO.

Don't get me wrong, I couldn't careless what others get up to but I do try and point out the shortcomings, as I see them, in training with blinkers on. Goto a class on a regular basis as you would definately enjoy the art more!!

[SilentNightfall]

Hmm... This is going to drive me crazy so I'm just going to ask... What, exactly, is the katakana/hiragana above supposed to me. So far, the best I can roughly translate it as is, "What is 'aso'?" Just wondering...

[sshh]

I'll try to clear up some misunderstandings and allow for some open-mindedness here:

[Sorry, all – this is another of my famous super-long posts. Bear with me.]

This topic sure does come up a lot. Might be a good idea to do a forum search or even use google.com with the keywords, “videos,” “black belt,” “home study course,” “Van Donk,” etc.

I’ll go through the thread post-by-post and see what I can do for yall -->


Jherazob: “There are only 2 ninjutsu dojos in the whole country (Colombia), and both of them are on different cities than mine.”

Move, or get used to traveling long distances. If you really want to learn ninjutsu find a Bujinkan dojo (No, I don’t hate Tanemura sensei for any reason, I just think Hatsumi’s budo is better), and go there.


“In ninjutsu.com a Richard Van Donk sells a video course that promises to take you to 1st dan without even having a sensei. Your opinion/experience on this?”

Sokklab: “He may be the bestest Correspondence/ By Video teacher in the world, but it sounds like a Crock of Fermented Excrement to me. Surely stuff like this would give Ninjitsu a bad name?”

I actually have experience on this, and information that somehow other people miss. First, my opinion: The videos are okay, they’re not great, but a good reference. Pros – lots of techniques, strategy, and philosophy. Cons – 10 tapes just for shodan! And it is expensive to get the whole set. Back when I had money that wasn’t a big deal, but if I were to make the decision now, I would rather save my money for classes, seminars, or equipment.

I say get the tapes if you want and can afford them. Heck, go ahead and find a training partner and a video camera and try earning kyu ranks through the mail. I didn’t bother to do that as I had a dojo nearby, and only wanted the videos as reference, so I don’t know exactly how well that would work.

Now, the little piece of information that most people overlook . . . You cannot get a black belt through video testing alone. Mr. Van Donk states himself (or maybe it’s his wife that does the writing) in the literature that accompanies the tapes that you must come to a dojo for a formal test at least for shodan, and it is also highly recommended to do the same for one of the middle kyu ranks.

Here are quotes from Van Donk’s training manual: “… much of this skill is almost impossible to learn on one’s own without guidance.” / “Books, and other sources of information … are of no use without a qualified instructor to guide you …”

I believe Master Van Donk is a highly talented and respected martial artist. Please take all of the above information into consideration and make the decision you feel is right.


Kurahana, and Silentnightfall made good points about receiving feedback from experienced teachers to reduce accumulating bad habits. Take that advice to heart.


“I once read that training in martial arts helped you to be more resillient to common diseases like colds and stuff like that as your body get stronger. Is that true?”

I don’t know for sure, but it seems reasonable that good training will provide you with exercise, sunshine and fresh air (for outdoor training at least), and social contact; I believe that those things will help promote a healthy immune system. Self-defense includes keeping yourself healthy in many ways.


As for practicing another martial art before starting ninjutsu – why not, let the instructor know that you are interested in learning some break-falls and grappling, and you just want to try it out for a few months. As mentioned, aikido and judo would be good starters.

I don’t think it would be “disrespectful” or “a waste of time,” as Silentnightfall put it – as long as you are being honest with yourself and whomever you train with. We learn to hide our intentions from our enemies. Do not do so with your teachers.

Oh yeah, if you do take another MA first, do expect to have to modify things to the ninja way of doing things. This shouldn’t be too difficult unless you picked up a lot of bad habits.


Jherazob: “… i came out with an idea that should've been obvious from the beginning: contacting the instructor of the Bujinkan dojo i'm hoping to go to once i move. Yeah, i hate when i miss the obvious ideas …”

If you want it enough, you will find it … even if it is too obvious to see right away. :)


“Ah! one i forgot before: is there a need of masochistic (or sadistic if you're the teacher :)) stretching exercises like those on the Kickboxer movie or something?”

No.

Warm up with some kind of aerobics; break a sweat, then slowly stretch out a little bit. Take it easy, relax into it; allow it to feel good. No pain – no pain, but still gain.


D_rza: “In order for me to learn ninjutsu or Taijitsu I have to be sixteen, and live in Toronto, what the hell is that??”

It’s just the preference of the dojo not to teach children. TKD is for kids, ninjutsu is R-rated for violence so I think some minimum age should be in place. I’ve seen some dojo that allow 13 yr. olds with parents’ permission and other special circumstances.


"Crazy Ed's house of Death" - I actually think that’s a pretty cool name!

Havoc123: “the mighty dragon weasel of bacon” – I really like this one too!


Jherazob: “Ok, today i talked to the guy. He spent 6 months training in E.E.U.U. (don't know exactly where, i'll get the details and send the greetings later :)), and got to 9th kyu.”

Go ahead and meet the guy and ask him some questions about how and why he started ninjutsu, and what some of his experiences were in the dojo he trained at. If you want to practice some stuff together from books or vid’s, just keep it simple and be careful. Study many sources for theory, strategy, tactics, history, and philosophy and leave the majority of the physical stuff for later when you can get proper supervision.

(On EEUU: It stands for Los Estados Unidos. There is more than one estado/state, so Spanish grammar has the words agree in number/plurality. Same goes for abbreviations. EU would just be El Estado Unido).


Bouk Teef: “I feel home black belt courses are only there to exploit the ignorant.”

That is usually not the original intention, but it is a possibility. Now whose fault is it: The supplier of the course, or the ignorant that buys it?

“Effectively you are buying a black belt which ultimately means that grade is worthless…”

No one gets a black belt for free. People pay for things because they themselves attribute some worth to it. In the case of the Van Donk tapes, one must send a video of themselves demonstrating the required moves for each kyu rank to a panel of judges. If the judges don’t believe you have trained hard enough to earn your next rank, you don’t receive it. You can’t just buy ranks – especially shodan.

“The ONLY way to learn any martial art is to get down to a dojo…”

That is false. Replace the word, “ONLY” with “BEST” and then you’ll have a valid point.


Havoc123: “i suppose u could sharpen the edges of the tape and use it for a really big suriken.”

Man, I like the way you think!


Cloudgodd: “The Arcanum of Ninja Tactics it is written by my JONIN…”

“Arcanum,” “Jonin” – uh huh . . . now I understand the peculiarities of your other postings. I know of the group you train with. WQI, right? I see you are in Florida. Where do you train?


Havoc123: “in my opinion Genbukan ninpo is the best, although im sure my Bujinken brothers and sisters will dissagree with me seeing as how they hate Tanemaura Soke”

I take it back. I don’t like the way you think. That is a disgusting thing to say. I don’t know anyone in the Bujinkan that has any hate in their heart for anyone. Just because I would rather train with Tanemura’s teacher than with Tanemura sensei himself, doesn’t mean I hate the man.

“... but u have to agree with me that getting ur black belt in a year is a little odd right?”

I don’t know what this statement is in response to. Who do you know that studies ninjutsu who got a black belt in a year? I’m sure it’s possible if you come in with previous experience, show a good heart, and train 20 hours every week. But I’m also pretty sure most dojo have minimum training time requirements like 3 months between kyu, etc. to ensure this doesn’t happen.

Now, Villari’s is another story (I feel your pain, Havoc123). I have had the unfortunate experience of training there as a youngster. Pure crap McDojo belt factory. I don’t like saying bad things about people or institutions, but I didn’t like that place at all. Besides, it isn’t even ninjutsu, so who cares?


Michiel: “I have trained with To-shin-do founder Stephen K Hayes, Hatsumi sensei, Van Donk Sensei, Tew Sensei, Dux Sensei, Tanemaru sensei, Takamatsu sensei and many other as I believe most of you have.”

Whaaat!? You actually trained with those people? Not just read their books?
“As I believe most of you have.” ?? What!?

Look, it’s so simple people. *Yes you can* learn ninjutsu from videos, books, and the internet – just not as well as if you were in a good dojo. Combine the dojo training with out-of-dojo research, and you’ll improve even more. It’s so logical, I get a near-vacuous brain implosion thinking about it.


Bouk Teef: “The whole point is that the movement for disarming ... It would appear that you have missed the relevance.”

And it appears that you have missed Michiel’s point (as flawed as it is). Michiel was trying to say (I think) that some videos are better than some dojo. This is pretty pointless and irrelevant, because it is also true that some dojo are better than some videos.

Just because it’s on video doesn’t make it good. Just because it’s in a dojo doesn’t make it good. Good training comes from good sources. Find the best you can and make a better person out of yourself. Criticizing other methods will not improve your skills, it will only close your mind to new ideas.


I think I might start adding the following Buddhist wisdom to all my posts, as it is incredibly relevant to all these discussions:

“Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it.
Do not believe simply because it has been handed down for many generations.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is written in Holy Scriptures.
Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of teachers, elders or wise men.

Believe only after careful observation and analysis, when you find that it agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all.
Then accept it and live up to it.”

- Kalama Sutta


Silentnightfall: “What, exactly, is the katakana/hiragana above supposed to me. So far, the best I can roughly translate it as is, "What is 'aso'?"”

Yes, it is hard to tell what he meant by that.

It says “A so na n de su ka”

“A” is written in katakana, the rest, “so nan desu ka” is hiragana.
“so” doesn’t mean much by itself; “sonna” means “like that” and just “so” can mean “right” (as in “Ah so” = “oh right” / “I get it”)

“Nan desu ka” = “what is it?” / “what is that?”

So my best guess is, “a so, nan desu ka” = “Oh, I see, what is that?”
Unless he meant “a sonan” = “it’s a disaster” / “a sonan desu ka” = “is it a disaster?” / “Is it really that bad?”

So, what did you mean, Michiel?


(Kyudo . . . giving it a shot, . . . what a great pun!)


And for my last little public service:

Another quick language lesson: Nin Jutsu = ninja skills, Nin Pou = ninja laws. It’s just that simple, folks.


Have a good day, and “gambatte kudasai!”

[Keikai]

i was just about to post a reply to the questions asked but looking at sshh's comments i will just say i agree with him, Van Donk's vid's are good but only as a guide, i have hatsumi's vid's as well but only watch them every know and then to see if there are any techniques i have done and try to pick up a couple of tips but i don't use them to train.

Nice one sshh! about time people put valid points on here not a load of bull

[Michiel]

thank you.. I will stay shhh-d. I meant So nan desu ka. And I did train with all these people through books, videos etc, like most of us have.

[Bouk Teef]

Bouk Teef: “I feel home black belt courses are only there to exploit the ignorant.”

That is usually not the original intention, but it is a possibility. Now whose fault is it: The supplier of the course, or the ignorant that buys it?

To answer your question: the responsibility of the supplier. No point going into the reasons as it has been said before.

“Effectively you are buying a black belt which ultimately means that grade is worthless…”

No one gets a black belt for free. People pay for things because they themselves attribute some worth to it. In the case of the Van Donk tapes, one must send a video of themselves demonstrating the required moves for each kyu rank to a panel of judges. If the judges don’t believe you have trained hard enough to earn your next rank, you don’t receive it. You can’t just buy ranks – especially shodan.

Nobody should get a BB for free. Each grade should be earned and not bought. there is a big difference. People may argue there is little difference between viewing the grading in person rather than on a TV screen. However, how can recording yourself on a video demonstrate you have the ability to hold a shodan? There is more to it than "performing" a number of technique. How do the panel of judges grade adaptation of technique, the mental state of the participant, the ability to teach / perform first aid or organise classes / seminars? All these things (and more) are part of being a BB.
My concern with Home Study BB courses is that, having obtained their BB, these people now have a ligitimate right to go on and start their own classes and teach others even though they have not demostrated key skills (some of which are listed above). I feel this would cause more harm to Ninjitsu than good.

I do feel there is a difference between HSBB courses and MA videos made for demostration purposes. I have seen a number of "reference" videos but I would never try and learn a MA from them alone.

“The ONLY way to learn any martial art is to get down to a dojo…”

That is false. Replace the word, “ONLY” with “BEST” and then you’ll have a valid point.

Maybe I should of said "experince any martial art". I take your point though :)

Bouk Teef: “The whole point is that the movement for disarming ... It would appear that you have missed the relevance.”

And it appears that you have missed Michiel’s point (as flawed as it is). Michiel was trying to say (I think) that some videos are better than some dojo. This is pretty pointless and irrelevant, because it is also true that some dojo are better than some videos.

Just because it’s on video doesn’t make it good. Just because it’s in a dojo doesn’t make it good. Good training comes from good sources. Find the best you can and make a better person out of yourself. Criticizing other methods will not improve your skills, it will only close your mind to new ideas.

To be fair I don't think I did miss his point; I just disagreed with it. If you are training at a dojo where the experience is poorer than watching a MA video than I would question the senior BB's ability. Perhaps he bought his BB with ten videos? :p Yes, by all means research your chosen MA but there is no substitute for training with qualified instructors.

[Michiel]

You must love before you can create. If you love Ninpo you can learn with or without a teacher. Fall in love with Ninpo. It is good to have a teacher, but if he is no good it could be better to have none. Look to nature. Strive to find the root (fundamental truth) of winning.

Hatsumi, your teachers teacher said one more thing (besides the quote above) relevant to us all...

Shut up and train

ps..if you disagree, the address to write is you can find on www.bujinkan.com

[Michiel]

ごめなさいね私の日本語はまでセンセンすばらしじゃないでも毎日毎日勉強　

[sshh]

Greg Chapman: “…i have hatsumi's vid's as well…”

You lucky dog - I don’t own any of those yet myself, but I’ve seen bits of a couple of them at my shidoshi’s house, and I would recommend, if you are going to get any videos, get soke’s.


“about time people put valid points on here not a load of bull”

Well, actually, I think my points are just as valid as anyone else’s. Heck, some of what I wrote may be a “load of bull.” Read my quote from the Kalama Sutta again. The point is to not take anything at face value, but to study further to nearer approach the truth.


Michiel: “I will stay shhh-d.”

No need to stay shushed. Please continue to share. Even if you post false, incomplete, or inaccurate information – it will at least give the rest of us something to discuss and research. It’s not like you are knowingly posting false information, that would be intentionally lying, and I don’t think any of us here would do that . . . except for those sneaky ninja’s trying to sow confusion to disguise their knowledge. :)

And there’s nothing wrong with that!


“I meant So nan desu ka.”

Thought so; in response to what though?


“And I did train with all these people through books, videos etc . . .”

Well most of us haven’t trained with those people. Some of us have read or watched material produced by a few of the men you mentioned, but that isn’t really training with them. At best it is only training with their ideas. Good to keep things like that clear.


Bouk Teef: “To answer your question: the responsibility of the supplier. No point going into the reasons as it has been said before.”

I think I will go into the reasons, just so others will have a better understanding of what I was getting at.

It is the responsibility of the supplier to be honest with their customers. Unfortunately, many are not. It is also, however, the responsibility of the customer to be honest with themselves.

In the case of the Van Donk tapes, the American Bushin Dojo is honest with its customers.

“…how can recording yourself on a video demonstrate you have the ability to hold a shodan?”

Hate repeating myself, but “You cannot get a black belt through video testing alone. Mr. Van Donk states … that you must come to a dojo for a formal test at least for shodan …”

I’m pretty sure, no I am absolutely certain, that there are companies out there that sell shodan grades in whatever MA, and do not care whether or not it is earned. Like I said, this is a matter of honesty on the part of the supplier, as well as the consumer.

‘Caveat Emptor,’ ‘You Get What You Pay For,’ etc.

“… having obtained their BB, these people now have a ligitimate right to go on and start their own classes …”

First of all, there really isn’t a “legitimate right.” At least here in America, you don’t have to have any kind of credentials to open your own martial arts school. It is perfectly legal to make up any fighting style you want, call it whatever you like (avoiding trademarked names of course), and teach – and profit from it.

However, in the Bujinkan, one is not recognized as a legitimate teacher until after godan (5th black belt), and you definitely can’t get one of those from videos.

In the case of other martial arts - I don’t know. I guess it is possible for someone to just buy a black belt, start a school and call it ninj*i*tsu; teach crappy MA, and give their own style a bad name. Does that make legitimate organizations like the Bujinkan look bad? Sure, to the ignorant. Do we in the Bujinkan care? Nope. Please, think our martial art is crap, don’t train with us – there are more than enough Bujinkan members already. (please note that I am not directing any of the above at any particular individual; I’m speaking purely rhetorically … unless of course the ignorant shoe fits …


“To be fair I don't think I did miss his point; I just disagreed with it.” – Okay.

“If you are training at a dojo where the experience is poorer than watching a MA video than I would question the senior BB's ability.”

Good advice.

“Perhaps he bought his BB with ten videos?”

Maybe he did, but not from the Bujinkan. :)

“… by all means research your chosen MA but there is no substitute for training with qualified instructors.”

Amen!

Michiel: “Shut up and train!”

Amen and Hallelujah!

Thanks for posting the quote (and giving credit to the author), now here’s something to think about: “It is good to have [videos], but if [the tape] is no good it could be better to have none.” … [and to have a teacher instead].”


ごめなさいね私の日本語はまでセンセンすばらしじゃないでも毎日毎日勉強

I hope I didn’t give the wrong impression and made you think that I actually know Japanese, but I’ll try to translate that as much as I can.

go me na sa i ne watakushi no ni hon go ha(wa) ma de shichi N shichi N su ba ra shi ji-ya(ja) wo(o) i de mo mai nichi mai nichi ben kyou

“gomen nasai nee” = “Will you excuse me?”
“watakushi-no nihongo-wa” = “My Japanese (language)”
“made” = until
“shichi N shichi N” or "nana N nana N" = “seven N’s?” – don’t know what that means.
“subarashii” = “wonderful”
“ja” = “well then” Unless you meant, “jiyaku” = “translation” / “transliteration”
"o" = grammatical particle indicating object of transitive verb.
"i de" - ? "good outcome?"
"mo" = "more" / "soon"
"mai nichi" = "every day" - "mai nichi mai nichi" - ?
"ben" = endevour, "kyou" = strong; "benkyou" = "study" / "practice"

--> "gomen nasai nee watashi-no nihongo-wa made shichi N shichi N subarashii ja o ii de mo mai nichi mai nichi benkyou"

= (my best guess) "Will you excuse me? My Japanese will get better after studying everyday."

It was good practice to help me learn nihongo, but I think it would be better to keep everything in English, or to at least use romaji for Japanese.

[Michiel]

Your Japanese is fine. but I wrote the following

gomennesai ( I accidently wrote gomennAsai) ne watakushi (watashi is less polite) - no nihongo-Ha (sorry it isnt Wa here) made sen sen (totaly) subarashi jyanai (means not) demo (means but) mai nichi mai nichi (is popular for hontoni everyday) benkyou (study)

[dragon_bunny]

it is Wa after nihongo it's just writen with the Ha symbol..

and shouldn't it be benkyoshimas?

only just starting to learn japanese.

[Michiel]

uhmmmmmm right so Ha not Wa, like i said. benkyoushimasu..or benkyoudesu...or benkyoudayo, ...or benkyou!

[dragon_bunny]

yeh but you pronounce the Ha as Wa because it's a partical..
I is pronounced watashi-wa is writen watashi-ha
only thought it should end in benkyoshimasu because it's a current or future posistive... ok now i'm confused!

[Michiel]

textbook.... but people dont speak textbook.... but your right, textbook wise. Man My japanese is really bad because I live in Japan and my wife only speaks Japanese so I learned spoken japanese... I never used shimasu ever but it is in the textbook

[Michiel]

sorry one more, I didnt write watashi-ha I said watakushi ha.,,.. however I made a mistake... I said made sen sen ...it should be mada sen sen..

[dragon_bunny]

fair enough :) my teacher is determind to make us all speak polite text book perfect japanese.. if i ever go to japan i'll sound like such a freak ;)

yeh i know you didn't write watashi-wa was just using it to get it right in my head.:)

[Michiel]

I is written,

watakushi, watashi, boku, ore, jibun, ware, ora this all is I and all ends with HA not WA when you write it. Sure spoken it sounds more like wa.... ganbatte ne

[dragon_bunny]

gah... too many words :) i think i'm just going to stick with watashi-wa and be done with it ! i'm only just starting but thank you :) i still get friends and eggs mixed up.. it's getting kinda embrassing!

[Michiel]

friends is otomodachi, eggs is tamago..uhhhhhmmm

[sshh]

If this is where this discussion is going, take it to the language section of the forum.

[dragon_bunny]

If this is where this discussion is going, take it to the language section of the forum.

we've stopped don't worry!