Has anyone heard of Marshall Gagne? [Archive]

Thomas

19-Nov-2005, 01:51 PM

In my personal opinion, an instructor shouldn't have a problem with students cross training, and if they do, they should have a good reason. I would be up front with the instructor and tell him/her what I was thinking, e.g. "I need more self defence and I think a bit of Hapkido cross training would be good". Hopefully your instructor will support your idea and may possibly recommend a place to go (or know of this school you are talking of). Again, I think being straight forward and honest is the best policy.

Granted, if the TKD school doesn't get into self defence (Ho Shin Sool) until black belt, maybbe they have a reason. For example, some schools believe that students should get a strong foundation in one art (to about 1st dan) before any cross training... to help prevent confusion. In fact, we in general follow this idea and prefer that our students don't cross train on a wide scale until 1st dan (although seminars and short term is fine at any level).

If your instructor forbids any cross training at all withouit a good reason... then maybe you should start looking on your own and maybe even for a new school. Good luck!

MonsterMaxx

03-Dec-2005, 05:22 PM

Master Kim was very reluctant to allow me to take this additional training. Some of his reservations were probably justified.

He asked me to review the subject over the weekend and return with pros & cons.

I came back with several straight positives, a good number of negatives that I either nullified or turned into a positive. Concluded with a request that I try it for a few months, monitor the progress, if there were problems I either correct them or discontinue the extra training.
At which point he consented.

I have now had 3 sessions with Master Gagne and like it. We still don't have mat area so are working outside, other than some grass stains where he's bounced me I think doing some training in street shoes outside is a cool thing. Hopefully we'll do more of this even after we get mats down.

I know when I did tkd forms on top of Monsarrate and at the beach the uneven footing makes for a challanging environment.

Anyway, so I'm now enrolled in 2 MA schools. MWF @ noon w/ Master Kim's, TT @ noon with Master Gagne, Thurs PM sparring class and an occational Sat AM class (like today.)

That's about 6hrs a week of MA. I still need to do some strength training (weights&mch), cardio (bike) and somewhere I need to find a good stretching routine which can get some flexability of this 40yr old bod. Looking at the Kurz.

Thanks for your advise and if you are ever in Greenville stop on by and attend a class. VIP free on me, just tell them Robin sent you.

Thomas

04-Dec-2005, 10:06 PM

Nice info! Thanks!

Someday I'd like to stop by and try out a class there! :)

MonsterMaxx

14-Dec-2005, 01:36 AM

I've now had 6 or 7 lessons with him. From everything I can tell he really knows his stuff (though since I'm such a newbie I may not be the best judge.)

Also, on the DVD thing, I got the whitebelt one and I'm pretty impressed. I thought it would be really cheezy, but it's quite well done.
Not sure I'm the type of personality to do the distance learning thing, but having the DVD as a supplement to class is fantastic. Really gives me a chance to see the move slowly and over and over so I can get it right.

Wish I had something like this to help learning forms in TKD.

klaasb

14-Dec-2005, 11:10 AM

Do you follow the hapkido or hankido program?

Thomas

14-Dec-2005, 12:29 PM

Also, on the DVD thing, I got the whitebelt one and I'm pretty impressed. I thought it would be really cheezy, but it's quite well done.
Not sure I'm the type of personality to do the distance learning thing, but having the DVD as a supplement to class is fantastic. Really gives me a chance to see the move slowly and over and over so I can get it right.

Would you mind telling us what is covered on the tape (a brief review) and the general price/length... I am very interested. :)

Wish I had something like this to help learning forms in TKD.
What forms do you do in TKD? GM Hee Il Cho has really good tapes (and good video + book combos on the internet) for nearly every set of forms for TKD, although there are some variations between instructors.
See http://www.aimaa.com/Merchant2/merchant.mv?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=GHICAS&Category_Code=IS

MonsterMaxx

14-Dec-2005, 03:11 PM

The entire whitebelt curriculum is on the 1st DVD.
To give you some idea, I sat thru 9th and 8th gup for the first time the other night and it took about 2 hours. That's not pausing it or anything either, just straight thru.

Warm-up exercises - extensive, even including 8 different ways to do pushups.
Variety of blocks
Variety of strikes
Variety of kicks
The above in combos
Falling and some beginning groundwork
And more.

Much of what's required for Whitebelt.
I’m told there are 9 DVDs in the set, though I have not seen all this yet.
His blackbelt course is a 5 year program in school. My impression is that this will not be a McDojang. It’ll include not only the Hapkido and Hankido, but also Hankumodo and Gymnastics. From what he says I’ll be learning all kinds of extreme sports along with the self defense and weapons training. Clearly will need to improve my conditioning greatly to handle backflips, handsprings and the like – never done one in my life.

I can't begin to detail it all. The whitebelt student manual is 83 pages and the DVD covered all that and much more in far greater detail.

I told M.Gagne yesterday that I thought he should put clips of it on his website.

What he told me is something that happens to so many.
He had this on his site and a whole lot more. Unfortunately his webguy wasn't the most honest fellow and never provided backups of the work he did. When the fellow was shut down the entire site (6yrs work) went with him.
M.Gagne is working on a new site which will include clips like I suggested.

I'm not trying to pitch this as a 'go buy DVDs and you'll be a black belt',
merely saying that as a training supplement I think it’ll be great for me. If you were enrolled in his school here I'd certainly recommend it (or even the Michigan school since he trained the new owner.) I’m not even sure how you’d buy it if you wanted them since his current site doesn’t have any way to do so. Best bet would be to call him and ask, his # here is 864 968 9322. I do not know the price.

M.Gagne does have a bunch of distance learning students though. Several secret service agents and special forces who do this from DVD. Part of the course is 1:1 training from time to time either at the student's location or in school.
I don't think I'm the type of person who this would work for, but I guess there's all kinds of peeps out there, probably with a partner it would be a lot better. Frankly I considered the DVDs a complete waste of time – until I watched this one. Now I know better.
There is no comparison between this and something like Pavel’s SuperJoints DVD (which I do consider a waste of time and money.)

Having talked to M.Gagne about the DVD's I can sort of understand why M.Kim has not done something like this. M.Gagne said it took over a year of work (with 38 years of studying Martial Arts all over the world) and $150,000 to produce these DVDs. I guess a production studio, crew and video editing is pretty expensive.

This is all backing up what he's teaching me - except for the groundwork part because we don't have mats yet...
...I guess that bears some explanation.

When I was in Barcelona they were teaching some self defense stuff like jointlocks and wrist twists. When I got home I expressed interest in learning this. M.Kim does not teach Hapkido until 1deg which I won't reach for at least another 2 years. A month or so later during testing the black belts were doing tons of these moves and I again expressed interest. Again denied.
So when I got home that day I started searching the net for Hapkido & Greenville to see what's out there.

M.Gagne had just sold his school in Michigan and moved down here (like me, he's a Yankee who hates snow.) I just happened to catch the site the day he announced this. I called him and set up a meeting.
When I arrived he was just finishing his meeting with the new landlord for the location here. It'll be another month or two before the space is renovated.
I was able to convince him to begin teaching me now rather than wait for the school to open. So we are working outside, in offices, and anyplace else that works until they clean out the area where the mats will be.

The only criticism I can think of is that he's pretty full of his art and continues to express how much better than all the others his is. I’m way too inexperienced to be judge, but if he’s even half as good as he says, perhaps it’s justified. It does rub me the wrong way a bit – strikes me as bragging. It’s a small annoyance when compared to what I will learn from him, but is there. Hopefully this will diminish over time when he feels I’m convinced. Also, my case is a little different since I’m studying TKD at the same time and I’ve made it pretty clear that I continue to consider M.Kim as my primary master at least until I reach 1st deg in TKD – likely I provoke some of this.

So far I’m enjoying it. I don’t have the experience to comment on his skill. I can say his teaching ability is quite good.
But by all means, if you are in the area contact me and I can get you a free VIP pass and you can judge for yourself. Until the school officially opens (mid Jan to Feb) we meet Tues and Thurs at noon. The Dojang is very close to GSP airport and minutes from I85. Class is supposed to run for an hour, but I haven’t been out of there in less than 2 hrs yet. Once the school officially opens there will also be an evening adult class, which will be around 7pm. Stop by, we’ll have some fun.

MonsterMaxx

14-Dec-2005, 03:16 PM

Do you follow the hapkido or hankido program?
I don't know. What's the difference?

Thomas

14-Dec-2005, 05:10 PM

Thank you for the huge review. It sounds really good. Personally I use our systems tapes for reference and find them very valuable for reviewing and practicing the core requirements. It's nice to hear that your training is working out well and that you are happy with it.

I would like it if Master Gagne had some clips from the videos up, I would like a bit of preview in case I did want to buy them. I am fairly interested in the IHF Hapkido videos.

MonsterMaxx

29-Dec-2005, 03:58 AM

My girlfriend came over today and got a lesson. She liked it and now she's signed up too. Whoo Hoo!

rangerwalker

21-Jan-2006, 04:45 PM

Removed at poster's request

Marine Hapkido

22-Jan-2006, 05:19 PM

Hello everyone, I thought I would drop a few lines here about Marshall Gagne and let you know what everyone in our area already knows.
Marshall Gagne IMHO has no integrity and only focuses on one thing and that is how much money he can suck out of you. I know this because I was his sales and office manager for a few years along with being an instructor for his morning classes and teaching all his kids classes for a period of time.

Like rangerwalker said "don't believe the hype". Marshall Gagne will spill so much crap into your cup it is gonna be up to you to study and learn the correct history about hapkido and martial arts in general.

After finding out what this guy was all about I left and joined up with the WHF and found the hapkido I was learning was incomplete. I also did some research and even found out the techniques I learned didn't even look like anything from the IHF, but somehow he is the area rep for them.

About signing a contract with him, DON'T DO IT. If you are gonna sign one please be smart and read the back of the contract. You will find out you just signed all rights and freedoms away when it comes to martial arts in general. He has things like non-compete agreements and statements like you have to have a written agreement from him to study anyother art etc..... and if you step out of line just a bit he will have you standing in front of a judge in a snap.

Another great ploy is his statement " I've been teaching for 38 years". Now that sounds kind of hard when that would only make him about 18 or 19 and as I remember he was in the Army at that time and still learning TKD. He didn't even start learning HKD until the 80's. Even funnier he never went through the gup system, he received a lateral promotion ( 3rd degree TKD to 3rd Degree HKD). I guess the IHF needed black belts back in the 80's so that is something they did.

One more thought to ponder on is, if someone like him is sooooo great why doesn't he have any masters that he tought under him? Think about that for a minute. Here is someone that brags he is so great and what he teaches is the best, but for some reason he has NO masters that he brought up through the ranks that are still with him.

Marine Hapkido

hapkiyoosool

01-Feb-2006, 04:11 PM

<< Deleted at member's request - Admins >>

MonsterMaxx

05-Feb-2006, 05:48 PM

It saddens me to see this drama between dojangs…
…too much drama for me.

I’m learning. I’m enjoying what I’m learning. My impression is that M. Gagne is a good teacher and I’m happy studying under him.
The combination of M. Kim’s TKD and M. Gagne’s 3HKDs is working well for me.

Last week I had 9x MA classes (5x TKD & 4x HKD) and biked 4 times along with some stretching in front of the boob tube.
:D
I feel good!

My girlfriend says she likes it too and is enjoying training w/ M.Gagne.
She's a natural at this. Her movements and kicks already look better than mine did after 6 months. She's already more graceful than I am. I suspect she'll pass me before long even though she attends only twice a week.
She's also mentioned that she is quite pleased with the change in my appearence over the last year:)
Say goodbye to the 240+lb couch potato and hello to the 180lb lean machine

rangerwalker

05-Feb-2006, 09:57 PM

Removed at poster's request

hapkiyoosool

06-Feb-2006, 01:48 PM

MonsterMaxx: there is no drama between dojangs - you asked if anyone heard of him and a few people posted their experiences with him. As I said originally, you will learn a lot. If you enjoy it, keep training. Keep us posted on your progress, sounds like you are doing great!!
Ditto.....

MonsterMaxx

07-Feb-2006, 02:58 AM

Will do, thanks.

hapkidophyte

09-Feb-2006, 10:37 PM

I left and joined up with the WHF and found the hapkido I was learning was incomplete. I also did some research and even found out the techniques I learned didn't even look like anything from the IHF, but somehow he is the area rep for them.
Marine Hapkido

Please elaborate on what he is missing.

Also, I'd love to hear as in depth a comparisson between his and IHF as you're willing to give.

thank you.

hapkidophyte

09-Feb-2006, 11:05 PM

They style of hapkido he does is, kind not like any hapkido I have ever seen.

What are the characteristics of his system and how does it differ from other hapkido systems? If possible, compare it to specific federations.

Thank you.

Jungdo

10-Feb-2006, 01:11 AM

I was used to seeing Hoi jeon moo sool more circlish.
thats all.

hapkidophyte

10-Feb-2006, 02:40 AM

I was used to seeing Hoi jeon moo sool more circlish.
thats all.

I don't know what "Hoi jeon moo sool" is-- is that the same as "ho shin sool"-- (which is the general term used for self defense at my old school).

Also-- what hapkido systems are you comparing his to?

thanks.

10-Feb-2006, 03:01 AM

Hoi jeon moo sool is a style of hapkido from Jae Ok Myung.
(the older brother of Jae Nam Myung)
It is a more harder style than will say hankido.
But uses more circles in there movement.
Like they will do a tech. and spin out or away from the person. It still has the fluid movement that you would see in hapkido.
Here is a site you might like.
http://hoijeonmoosool.free.fr/

rangerwalker

11-Feb-2006, 07:45 PM

Message removed at poster's request

ushankido

11-Feb-2006, 11:44 PM

Please elaborate on what he is missing.

Also, I'd love to hear as in depth a comparisson between his and IHF as you're willing to give.

thank you.

The IHF HQ does not mandate members schools to teach Hankido or Hankumdo. This decision is left up to the individual school instructor. Some instructors chose to teach them as part of their guep curriculum, while others offer it to their dan students. The International HKD Federation stands for the International Hapkido, International Hankido, International Hankumdo, and the International Hwal Bup Federations. The above mentioned entities fall under something called Jae Nam Musul Won. So, they offer certification in Hapkido, Hankido, Hankumdo, and Hwal Bup. I do not teach or train in Hapkido these days, instead I'm more focused on Hankido, Hankumdo, and Hwal Bup.

hapkidophyte

12-Feb-2006, 12:34 AM

Thank you rangerwalker and ushankido.

MonsterMaxx

13-Feb-2006, 02:34 PM

Thanks for the info guys, I have to admit I'm quite confused by some of these statements. Makes me wonder if M.Gagne has changed/adapted/expanded his styles since coming south or if I'm just not understanding.

We've been doing 5 spinning basics from very early on (I'm terrible at language or I'd say what they are called, will try to remember after class tonight and update)
Block block spin chop
low block spin chop
chop punch spin chop
(shoot, I knew all 5 of these the other day, maybe I'm getting alzheimers)
M.Gagne spends considerable time stressing circle techniques, flow like water, letting the opponent/partner flow around - simply redirect their forces slightly instead of a hard block, etc.
Are these not the beginnings of hankido?

The hapkido is the wrist twists, arm locks, knee, etc right?

We also work on ground (now that we have mats) and he stresses ground work and that we will spend a lot of time learning how to defend, fight, kick etc from the ground. Just the other day we did a drill where one was on the ground and the attacker was not. I feel much more comfortable on the ground as a result of that and doubt that the average attacker could get thru my guard now. It was really quite easy to apply what he taught.

We've also worked on a few clinches, one where from a clinch we wrap an arm firmly behind the partner/opponent and then do that throat strike thing to make the other guy bend back, then crash him to the ground.

We've done a little preliminary sword work. I've expressed interest in the staff and been told this will come later in the course (I did not get the impression that 'later' ment after black belt, though I could be mistaken.)

Now remember, I'm just a newbie and hardly know what I'm talking about so please don't hammer me if this sounds goofy, but it does seem to me that he's teaching what you say he doesn't teach. Maybe he's adapted...or am I just not understanding?

klaasb

13-Feb-2006, 03:14 PM

The block, chop, spin, chop techniques are Jeon Hwan Kwon Bub. (circling strike techniques)
Not exactly the basics of hankido but pretty close.
You could call them basic hankido striking techniques.

A bit more basic than that are the three basic spinning moves (jeon hwan bub, young nyu bub and shim hwa bub).

I would call the set of twelve basic self defense techniques characteristic for hankido (there where hapkido and hankido differ a lot).
They are called:
Kwan Jul Ki Bup
Chi Ki Bub
Sib Ja Ki Bub
Nae Wae Ki Bub
Kyeo Rang Ki Bub
Mok Kama Bub
Mok Keokki Bub
Oh Kkae Too Bub
Joong Pal Too Bub
Hwae Jeon Too Bub
Pal Mok Ki Bub
Pal Bae Ki Bub

(you might see them romanized in different ways).

You might want to check out the two topics on hankido in this same section.

ushankido

13-Feb-2006, 05:02 PM

I don't know Master Gagne's curriculum so I can't comment on what he teaches but it sounds like your learning various Kwon Bup techniques.

rangerwalker

13-Feb-2006, 11:10 PM

Removed at poster's request

MonsterMaxx

15-Feb-2006, 01:31 PM

Take advantage of everything you can learn before the school gets too big!!

Keep up the good training!!
That's the plan! :) :eek: :)
Had a good one last night too. GF went. Came out saying 'ohh, all that tumbling was fun'
Along with other stuff we did falls last night
basic fall
front fall
back fall
basic roll
standing roll
standing back fall.
knee walking in 8 directions often followed by a back roll.

These are called 'nak bup' right?
(I really need to work on this language stuff, I'm sure I'm getting it wrong)
Towards the end we were rolling and diving from one end of the dojang to the other.
She was all smiles.

That roll fall should be a requirement for anyone doing fast sports (motorcycles, horses - stuff you fall off of at speed.) If my little brother had known this he probably wouldn't have broken his neck last summer when he crashed his dirt bike.

hapkidophyte

19-Feb-2006, 04:45 AM

he was very resistant to the whole concept (he referred to it as "rolling in the dirt" and said it was not for him). I was chastised one time because I showed a student an armlock from the ground that he didn't know.

Please descibe this lock. I've studied under three diferent hapkido masters now (including Gagne), and with regards to ground-fighting armlocks, I've only ever been shown variations (and very little variation there) on what the Gracies use to win their matches-- the armbar using the pelvis as the fulcrum to break the elbow.

I know other armlocks that end up on the ground, but that is the only one that starts from the ground.

hapkidophyte

19-Feb-2006, 04:51 AM

I'd like to qualify my last post-- you can do a great deal of hapkido armlocks on the ground, but the only one I know of that requires being on the gournd is the one I described. I don't count normal standing hapkido techniques, performed on the ground, as "ground techniques"-- that's just common sense.

MaxG

19-Feb-2006, 05:08 AM

I'd say it's an oma plata. It's using the legs as the fulcrum for a cop lock. A technique that can't be done standing since you nead to use the legs to do it. Of course it can be applied in a "sacrifice" sense like a flying armbar where you both end up on the ground.

rangerwalker

19-Feb-2006, 10:45 PM

Removed at poster's request

MaxG

19-Feb-2006, 11:47 PM

Is this the technique?

http://bjj.org/techniques/bjjfighter/gi/guard/omoplata/

The last 3 pictures show different variations but the original omaplata is above those.

rangerwalker

09-Apr-2006, 11:23 PM

Removed at poster's request

Choiyoungwoo

10-Apr-2006, 02:56 AM

I was just scanning through the hkd threads, and I hate to say this but this Gagne guy is .......a little scary....... his website gives little insight to anything except how great he is. The "about us" page should say "about me" From the looks of the pics his classes are not really that big , which means he better brush up on his own business skills before trying to teach other people how to do it. I want to see at least 350-500 active students in a school before I take advice, or pay to learn how to run a business. And anytime someone teaches AND PROMOTES VIA VIDEO is a little screwy. I think the MA business is full of all types, from good to bad, but I don't care who this guy is or what he can do. his profile screams many 3 word phrases to me.......run like hell......where's my wallet?.......don't look back.....where's my keys?....... i'm outta here.. :D

sorry monstermaxx ---thats just what I see..... :eek:

MonsterMaxx

12-Apr-2006, 03:52 AM

I've been around a lot of teachers and M.Gagne is top tier as far as I'm concerned.

I consider it a privledge to learn from the man.

ushankido

12-Apr-2006, 04:49 AM

Well, obviously people will have different experiences. I am glad that you have found a system that works for you and a master that you're proud to be affiliated with. I think some people look long and hard at schools and it is admirable that you have found one that works for you. Hankido and Hankumdo are truly unique and unusual arts.

rangerwalker

13-Apr-2006, 12:58 AM

Removed at poster's request

miles

19-Apr-2006, 11:20 PM

....he recently called up a former student in Michigan and left him a rather "unfriendly" voice mail and threatened him with legal actions when he found out the former student was training at another school.

As an MA instructor, and an attorney, I'd be interested in learning what legal theory any instructor believes prevents a former student from training at someone else' school.

Miles

nj_howard

20-Apr-2006, 01:16 PM

As an MA instructor, and an attorney, I'd be interested in learning what legal theory any instructor believes prevents a former student from training at someone else' school.
Perhaps an unenforceable "contract" that the student signed?

rangerwalker

23-Apr-2006, 12:19 AM

Removed at poster's request

MonsterMaxx

23-Apr-2006, 06:19 PM

We just had an 'open house' here, for the last 5 days and several of M.Gagne's blackbelt students came from around the country. We’ve been playing and doing all kinds of cool stuff and it’s been a real blast! Even the ankle biter class was fun (I’d not been to one before), I was surprised to see his methods with the kids, very different from adult classes, quite effective as well.

I've got to say that if this guy isn't the real deal I can’t imagine what is.
The skill demonstrated is impressive and even as good as these guys are, M.Gagne still had tons more info to teach them. The impression I got was that even though these guys are already highly skilled, MG’s teaching as much new to them as he does to me, a mere whitebelt. The man appears to have an almost limitless depth of knowledge.
Gotta admit, I find him to be quite likeable on a personal level too.

What’s most surprising to me is how quickly something he’s teaching sets in. I’m not quite sure I’ve got a clear picture of his methods, but I can say that they work. The man knows how to impart knowledge. IMHO this is the mark of a truly great teacher.

All this bashing and display of hate seems not only quite pointless, but is way off the mark from my observations. I find your accusations groundless and they do not 'fit' with the character of the man I've been getting to know over the last 6 months.
I do not have blinders on, or think the man is Mr. Perfect. If you look deep enough everyone will have traits that an individual will interpret as flaws. Everyone has different scales of measurement, often even the measurements are completely different.

I do however understand that some personalities just do not mesh and freely acknowledge your right to your opinion. I have to say that this bashing on the net as seems somewhat cowardly, particularly when your ‘opponent’ is known not to frequent places like this. While it’s true I did ask, some of these responses strike me as childish and unprofessional.

As to this former student teaching MG’s techniques at another school…
He’s spent 40 years developing what he passes on to us. If this were engineering these would be patentable creations. MG’s justified in considering them trade secrets and not wanting competing schools to have these secrets.
I have no idea about this former student, but when I signed up, he made this very clear to me and I AGREED as a condition of learning that they were his trade secrets and I would not teach them to others without his permission. Additionally, by the mile #s you quoted I can see that this person signed into the ‘Instructor Course’, the inner circle where he was privy to so much more.
I too doubt this is legally enforceable (or should I say ‘cost effective’), but if this student gave his promise, he should keep it. I know I would.
I can certainly see why Master Gagne feels betrayed by this person.

The more time I spend with Master Gagne and the more I see of his skill and the abilities of those he teaches the more I realize that the opportunity that presented itself last November was one of those rare truly great opportunities we get in life. I thank God that I’ve been given this chance and had the good sense to grab and hang on.

:D I'm happy. :D
How many of you can count yourself so fortunate?

Choiyoungwoo

24-Apr-2006, 01:41 AM

Sounds like a non competition clause. usually you see these in other industries for a length of time and a distance, but 10 years and 25 miles is a little much. The part about it being enforceable depends on the precedence set is case history of similar cases and probably varies from state to state. I don't blame any owner from having this in writing with employees, but I have heard the average is 1-2 years and 10 miles. If there are any employment attorneys out there this would be interesting to know more about. Please give us your angle. If an owner is doing everything right they probably will never need to enforce it, but you never know?!?!

Maxx I hope for the sake of you and all your class mates that things are as good as you see them. I hope you enjoy your training but I would be cautiously optimistic. Good luck

MaxG

24-Apr-2006, 01:57 AM

As to this former student teaching MG’s techniques at another school…
He’s spent 40 years developing what he passes on to us. If this were engineering these would be patentable creations. MG’s justified in considering them trade secrets and not wanting competing schools to have these secrets.

Don't know who this guy is... so I'm not directing this directly against anyone but this has already been brought up in courts. The LAW has stated that no one owns the techniques.

You can only own a name you create. Like a copy right. I.E. Tracy Karate, Combat Hapkido, etc. The techniques themselves are free realm. Otherwise imagine him only owning the techniques he "creates". Everything he learned from someone else would be considered "trade secrets" and those that taught him would be justified in suing him for not wanting competing schools.

If that were the case you can theoretically apply that train of thought to all martial arts and pretty much the richest people in the world would be descendents of Boddidharma.

rangerwalker

24-Apr-2006, 02:36 PM

Removed at poster's request

MonsterMaxx

24-Apr-2006, 04:21 PM

rangerwalker

24-Apr-2006, 06:55 PM

Removed at poster's request

nj_howard

24-Apr-2006, 07:07 PM

MG’s contract doesn’t state that he ‘owns’ these techniques, it’s a non-compete. As I understand it (and I’m not privy to the details) he’s trained the individual based on the agreement that this person will not take this training to the competition. If this person has then broken this agreement MG probably has a case.
Hi MonsterMaxx,

Whether or not he has a case is literally a judgment call. Covenants not to compete are problematic legally. It really depends on state law and the judge's interpretation of that law. Covenants not to compete that are judged by the courts to place unreasonable restrictions on one's ability to earn a living in one's chosen field are unenforceable.

I had to sign a non-compete agreement similar to this when I worked for a CAD software reseller. Their reasoning is that they were spending time & money training me, they didn't want me going across the street and working for the competition with their training. This type agreement is fairly standard when an employer has to make a large investment in the employee. I'd agreed when I went to work for them. If memory serves correctly it was a 100 mile radius and 5 years. SC is a Right to Work state and this is completely unenforceable. When I left them I didn't break my word and did something else with my talents.
Yes, but software is intellectual property that can be patented and typically is. As somebody pointed out above, apparently martial arts techniques cannot. Big difference.

As for SC being a right-to-work state, that's true, but it's not relevant to the covenant not to compete. Right-to-work laws prevent employees from being compelled to join or financially support labor unions (a situation sometimes referred to as a "closed shop") save a few exceptions, like federal contracts. Pretty much all of the Southern states have right-to-work laws.

If this guy is as good as you say he is, he shouldn't have anything to worry about from former students who teach his tecniques.

MonsterMaxx

02-May-2006, 02:23 PM

Howard,
It was a software reseller (a VAR), not the software manufacturer. The non-compete was that I cannot go to another reseller of the same software. No intellectual rights apply here.
Seems very much on point.

Rangewalker, I don’t know what’s caused you to have this falling out, 20 years is a lot, at some point you must have respected the man. It’s sad when a 20yr relationship fails, but it happens and there is often bad will too (ugly divorces anyone?)

rangerwalker

04-May-2006, 12:59 AM

Removed at poster's request

Choiyoungwoo

05-May-2006, 11:13 AM

MonsterMaxx -

Respect should work both ways. I didn't sign his non-compete agreement and he booted me out. Is it respectful to ask a student/instructor of 20+ years to sign such a ridiculous agreement? Especially when he knew he was going to be selling the school and leaving the state 6 months later. Why would I lock myself into such a restrictive agreement when there was no way of knowing what direction the new owner would take his school in? If I chose not to continue under the new ownership am I just supposed to stop teaching for 10 years?

I told him I would sign something that said if I left I wouldn't take his students, or teach his curriculum or even be a part of the same federation, but this wasn't good enough for him - I had to agree to not teach anything for 10 years within 25 miles. Between the main school and the affiliate school another black belt had, that meant I would pretty much have to teach in the next state.

Then, instead of being upfront about it, he calls me up and tells me, all of a sudden, "I have to cut back on part time hours, the full time employees need more time - Good luck" - even though he just got done bragging in a martial art magazine article about how successful his school had been. This is even more laughable since, at that time, there were no full time black belt instructors to teach the classes I was teaching.

No attempt to negotiate or work something out. How is that respectful?

Since he knew he was leaving in 6 months, then he had to have been making arrangements with the new owner already. I would bet that part of the "sales pitch" to the new school owner included the fact that this non-compete agreement exsisted with all bb/ instructors/employees ( whichever) and was a condition of the sale which he had to provide. I agree with you that it seems ridiculous, but It sounds like he painted himself into a corner. Really strange?!?!? Once he realized that you wouldn't be a party to that agreement , he had to distance you from the dojang asap so it wouldn't sour the upcoming deal. I kind of understand why he did what he did but , you would think he could sit down with you and ya'll could hash it out over a cup of coffee or something in a pleasant way.

an example of how broad and overreaching the agreement is, take this example: You decide to leave Gagne's after 1 year because you don't like Hapkido. You then start taking classes at the kung fu school 20 miles away. After 5 years in Kung Fu, your instructor will let you teach classes once or twice a week. Even though you are not teaching Hapkido, under the agreement you signed as a white belt, Gagne will sue you for teaching at your instructor's kung fu school. Is that right? I asked him this very scenario and he said yes, under the contract, you would have to get permission from him to even do this.

Thats just nuts!! in order for him to sue you for that and prevail he must show a loss. I just don't see how he will do that. I think he is relying on his bark working so well that he never has to bite.

Besides, what does an 8th degree grandmaster with 40 years experience have to fear about a student with 5 years experience teaching somewhere else?

New Students, old students, and money! He could easily lose students to a new school with younger a less experienced instructors. because if they do a better job of providing great classes, then they don't care about the teachers rank. "it's not what you can do , its what you can do for me!" thats what they are thinking. I wonder what he would do if a large dojo opened near him all of a sudden. with some 3rd degree, 28 year old owner that was fantastic in MA skill, teaching, marketing, and management ?!?!?!?

Choiyoungwoo

05-May-2006, 11:34 AM

As to this former student teaching MG’s techniques at another school…
He’s spent 40 years developing what he passes on to us. Mabye he added his flavor, but there is nothing new under the sun, I assure you he invented nothing.

If this were engineering these would be patentable creations. Is there no chance he got it from someone else in the last 40 years?
MG’s justified in considering them trade secrets and not wanting competing schools to have these secrets. I am sure he sees it that way and he wants you to see it that way but there are no trade secrets in MA, but a patent judge would render a final decision on that.
I have no idea about this former student, but when I signed up, he made this very clear to me and I AGREED as a condition of learning that they were his trade secrets and I would not teach them to others without his permission. This is the most interesting part. MG is a genius here.. Virtually no one signing up for MA has thoughts to teach yet. His agreement binds you EARLY, before you would ever have any aspirations to teach. But if that should ever occur, then he's got you by the short and curlies. I am not being sarcastic when I say that this is really clever!!

I can certainly see why Master Gagne feels betrayed by this person. Betrayed?? probably not, he is likely numb to this by now, worried about losing "trade secrets" probably not, there are no trade secrets in MA... worried about losing market share, almost certainly!!

The more time I spend with Master Gagne and the more I see of his skill and the abilities of those he teaches the more I realize that the opportunity that presented itself last November was one of those rare truly great opportunities we get in life. I thank God that I’ve been given this chance and had the good sense to grab and hang on.

I truly don't mean for this to sound confrontational, but I bet thats exactly how he wants you to feel at this point. I hope it is for all the right reasons.

I'm happy.
How many of you can count yourself so fortunate?

ME TOO :D

psbn matt

05-May-2006, 02:41 PM

having read all of this thread i'm pretty much in aggremnet with what choi has said. you are the client paying for his service, and should be free to use the knowledge you have paid to learn in anyway you see fit, including teaching it. if you leave his association what you do should be none of his bussines. no one in ma should ever sign a contract that restricts their freedom of choice.

miles

09-May-2006, 05:17 PM

Sounds like a non competition clause. usually you see these in other industries for a length of time and a distance, but 10 years and 25 miles is a little much. The part about it being enforceable depends on the precedence set is case history of similar cases and probably varies from state to state. I don't blame any owner from having this in writing with employees, but I have heard the average is 1-2 years and 10 miles.

That's exactly what it is-a non-compete clause. I don't do employment law and every state is different as Choiyoungwoo stated.

But a non-competition clause does not prevent a former student from training with someone else.

Miles

Choiyoungwoo

10-May-2006, 04:22 AM

But a non-competition clause does not prevent a former student from training with someone else.

Miles

Exactly, don't worry ,, it seems unenforceable for the non instructor, unless there is a weird local or state law, he's blowing smoke to try to prevent you from doing what he doesn't want you to do. Is it even legal to try to force people to not train elsewhere in a contract? If you train w him for 5 years and you are not a teacher, and you quit then go to a new school, then if you are the least bit savvy you can take lots of stuff like teaching methods, drills, & techniques, and there is nothing that he can do.. I'm not sure it is worth the effort as there are many sources of this type of info throughout the ma industry and I don't think it is an honorable charge to do such a thing, but wouldn't be hard.

MonsterMaxx

10-May-2006, 09:01 PM

This is not about 'training' elsewhere. That accusation is nothing but smoke. The part of the contract in question is a non-compete in regards to teaching elsewhere.

There is verbiage about enrolled students training elsewhere without permission, but if you leave the school you can certainly train wherever you want. I even spoke to MG about this because I like to train in strange schools when I travel (like I did in Barcelona.) MG is fine with it, but he wants to be kept in the loop in regards to my training.
The more I think about the traditional Master/Student relationship the more I think this is very reasonable.
If you are going to gripe, at least try to not drift into areas that are not relevant.

Rangewalker, no question respect should go both ways and I think it does within the bounds of the Master/Student relationship.
MG & I bumped heads briefly, but we were able to straighten it out like reasonable adults. He's clearly a bit old school in this regard, but I find this quite normal for someone of his rank and generation (the best college professors I’ve had are like this too.) I think it’s a good skill that we learn to show respect to our senior/high rank individuals. He’s got 40 years of doing his thing. Don’t you think he’s earned his position in the Master/Student relationship? Ask yourself if there was something you did (or didn’t do) set him off. Did you try discussing your concerns and objections with him? Or just give him the finger and walk off (metaphorically.)

Based on my own experience with Grandmaster Gagne, he’s a reasonable man and a respectful attitude and calm approach goes a long way towards convincing him to make allowances, as it did in my case.

rangerwalker

11-May-2006, 04:18 AM

Removed at poster's request

Wolf

11-May-2006, 04:54 AM

I think people misunderstand the term Master a lot in regards to martial arts. I personally don't believe it was ever meant to mean Master in the sense of They are the master of you (i.e. slave master) or they have mastered the art. I view it as a rank in the hierarchy of instructors, meaning Master Instructor. What do I mean by this? I mean you have your base instructors who are qualified to teach students, and then master instructors who are qualified to teach instructors. I may be wrong, but I thought that the korean term Kwan Jang Nym literally meant "Master Instructor," and meant basically what I've said above. I do admit I'm only a 1st degree blackbelt, and I could be wrong about it. I just thought I'd add my 2 cents.

edit: I guess on top of that would be you GrandMasters which are qualified to teach Masters.

rangerwalker

11-May-2006, 04:07 PM

Removed at poster's request

Wolf

11-May-2006, 05:03 PM

Yeah, that's pretty close to how I view it. Also, in KSW we have A LOT of titles, and it's pretty standard to just call someone by their title in the dojang. (i.e. my title is Jo Kyo Nym, 2nd dahn is kyo sa nym, 3rd is pu sa buhm nym, 4th sa buhm nym, 5th and up kwan jang nym). That's probably why I have the view of it the way I do.

Choiyoungwoo

13-May-2006, 12:29 PM

Actually, master is not a literal translation of kwan jang nim, it just means owner of a school. The use of master is a western thing. And while I realize no one really looks at it as a master/slave type of thing and I do understand how you view it (similiar to a master plumber, master craftsman), the difference is, no one goes around calling their plumber "master" like students do when referring to their "master" instructors. We had one student who called him "master", and when talking about him, referred to him as "the master", even out in public. If I was sitting at a restaurant with a student, I would be embarrassed if they called me "master".
I think KJN actually translates to Building owner, referring to master of the house/building I think that Kwan is analgous to the japanese word Kan.
Kan cho nin = master of the house/building/establishment in japanese.

I seems that WKSA encourages the use of the Korean title rather than the english "translation" in an effort to escape the cultural discomfort that most westerners have when they are asked to use the word "master".

MonsterMaxx

13-May-2006, 01:08 PM

I have to agree that the term 'master' is somewhat funky and needs to be read in context.
Obviously I do not view him as a slave would consider their 'master' as he does not 'own' me. Nor would I blindly follow orders which were quite contrary to my own desires. But he’s not just another ‘teacher’ who is passing thru for a semester or two either.

Too bad 'Sensi' does not easily translate to Korean, or should I say the Korean version of it is not as well known or even easy to say and seems to change rapidly based on who, what and the situation it’s used in. Frankly with the several different versions I've heard I'm not even sure which is right. Sabun-Nim?
Whatever...

The way I understand the traditional master/student (or whichever terms you choose to use) be it craftsman or martial arts or... indicates a senior/junior relationship in which the senior has a degree of authority over the junior and the junior is committed to the bond. In older times this authority could well be all encompassing; in America today it's been diluted to mean less. I guess how much less depends on one's interpretation or dedication to the relationship.
This could certainly be an interesting topic for a separate thread.

As to the rest, I’m not privy to the details (other than what I’ve read here.) I’m beginning to feel way out of my depth even commenting on it much less arguing the point. I agree with you: Let’s move on.

Yes, we had a promotion ceremony last night which I attended broken toe and all. It was quite fun, lots of little ones and their parents there, all enjoying the show. A good third of our current enrollment made 7th gup last night. My girlfriend (who’s normally very quiet) let out a mighty kihap for her break that startled the heck out of me, must admit I was very proud of her. MG had a twinkle in his eye as he presented me with my reused yellow and said: “that’s two styles now.”

We’ve been doing some twists & locks all along and I’m looking forward to new ones. Throws…I don’t think so, other than the one that’s blocking/grabbing a punch, then you do a cho nan bup (sp?) and end with your partner on the ground in an arm lock. No actual ‘throws’ like higher ranking students do.

I sure do like the combination of TKD & HKD, seems complement each other so nicely and I’m enjoying training tremendously. The last few weeks when I’ve been on the injured list have been torture. I’m still pretty gimpy, but with tape, splint and some allowances for things I can’t make that foot do I’ve started attending HKD again – really missed it. A broken toe really throws balance off. Still no TKD, way too much running around in there – maybe by the end of the month.

Overall I’m enormously pleased with this hobby. It’s rippling thru my life with incredible force and tangible results.

regularstudent

23-May-2006, 06:17 PM

I was a student at his Michigan School. I have two incidents to relate to you as far as what type of person, in my opinion, M. Gagne is. First incident occurred at the ceremony/demonstration when I received my black belt. There were 4 of us that tested for our black belts together. At the ceremony/demonstration we were each to do a break and a demostration. I chose to break bricks. The school record was 13. I had broken 13 bricks twice in practice so I decided to go for a new record and try 15. At the demonstration I broke 11 with my first strike and finished the other four with a second strike. After the demonstration my wrist was throbbing aching. As he is giving us each our black belts master Gagne leaned into me and hissed don't you ever embarrass me again like that in front of people. he was angry because I failed to break all 15 bricks. To top it off my wrist turned out to be fractured. I was attempting to break the bricks with a palm strike and twisted on impact.

My second and final confrontation with master Gagne was when my contract was up. After my wrist healed I debated on going back or not. I finally went back to finish out my contract because I was not going to let him collect on the contract without getting anything in return from him.. i.e. lessons, knowledge. So.. the finally three months of my contract I spent a lot of idle time in class or actually assisting lower ranked students. So he finally asks to meet me. I go into his office and he has a new contract all filled out and at a higher rate then my past contract. I was pissed off and told him there was no way I was reupping with him. That after I got my black belt I did not learn very much. The only stuff I learned was from the senior instructor and that was non-hapkido based things. I walked away and have never regretted it.

rangerwalker

27-Jun-2006, 06:38 PM

Removed at poster's request

Dave Barror

08-Jul-2006, 03:24 AM

Master gagne is my Instructor and like a father to me and has done nothing but help me sure we've had our dissagrements but anyone you get to know well or spend a lot of time with is going to get under your skin now and then .If you do not agree with him or his methods you should just go do your own thing , all he askes is that you go far enough away that you dont compete with him or what he's doing and legal or not if a man says I'll teach you martial arts but if you decide to have your own school stay 10 or 20 miles away then thats what you do becouse you agreed , becouse its the honorable thing , and becouse if you dont your a low life. And yes he will take you to court if you dont SO WHAT . Quite your crying and be a man thats what you get for messing around. As far as marinehapkido i herd you are about 350 pounds now and have shut down 2 schools in the last year you must be very pround of your acconplishments congrats. I'm on here with my real name you know who I am I'm not trying to hide and if you did that to me I wouldnt take you to court I'd hit you with a brick. And Rangerwalker George I used to have a lot of respect for you man and YOU blue it. Master Gagne said i should take you as my partner when I bought the school but i didnt know if i could trust you so we asked you To sign a new non compete to find out and then Master gagne even asked you what if you wanted to have a school in the same place as someone else in the association and what did you say ? Dude you got tested and you failed But at least one good thing came from it its the only time I ever proved Master Gagne wrong about anything becouse he said before we did this you were a good guy and would help me WRONG your just like Sutton.
And as far as the guy at the tsd school down the road I know he's teaching and so do you I called after I saw the hkd sign in the window geuss who they said would be teaching . He was coming in my school saying he was my friend just to steal Idea's for his new place him and Crawford both and big shock now wessy boy is there with them All four of you are losers !!! And i hope you get what you deserve for it And by the way thats real cool how you guys all Bumped your selves up in don rank without even having an instructor I hope it makes you feel inportant becouse it does'nt help you fight . Read what these guys have posted all they know how to do is try and nock others down i have'nt seen one post on here by any of those i mentioned that are actualy trying to help any one just hurt someone there jelous of . :woo:

iron_ox

08-Jul-2006, 01:08 PM

Hello Dave,

Next time you want to go on a rant, use a spell checker - or at least proof read what you write. This type of talk and accusatory tone is unacceptable at this forum. My vote is if you want to keep it up, just stay away.

It is fine to have a belief in what honor is, but to slag someone off with name calling is childish. Period. There are forums better suited for that, and this is not one of them.

iron_ox

08-Jul-2006, 01:08 PM

This thread should be locked - it has served its purpose - whatever that was.

klaasb

08-Jul-2006, 06:11 PM

Amen

ushankido

08-Jul-2006, 08:45 PM

This thread has definitely run its course. You guys should have this conversation in private.

Dave Barror

09-Jul-2006, 07:57 PM

I am sorry I didnt mean to attack anyone its just that everyday I have to see or hear about someone talking bad about my instructor I just wish people would get on with their lives and stop the nonsence. If you dont like noncompete contracts do'nt use them if you want more ground in your hkd then put it there but that does'nt mean anyone else is wrong for doing it the way they do it . Myself and sevral other blackbelts that are with me have to watch the two main guys that taught us dog each other all the time and it gets dishartening after a while makes you question why your even wasting time with any of it. The master and the chief instructor at the place where you got your training now dont get along and you dont want to have a bad relationship with either of them what do you do? Thats the question one 2nd don asked me and I didnt have the answer. Master Gagne is gone he moved 15 hours away please stop talking bad about him whatever you got against him you cant say he does'nt teach great hapkido. We are here in michigan only minutes apart do you realy want to have a bad relationship with the people you taught . Just becouse your mad at him ? Is there some way we can all let it go and work together to make the Hkd in this area a great thing to be apart of and not something thats full polotics and desention. Like I said I'm sorry for attacking you it just gets old you may have a problem with him but he's done a lot for me Lets find a way to make this right with everyone .
Instructor P. call master dorris and ask him about me I try to help everyone I can lets make this right :(

iron_ox

09-Jul-2006, 10:38 PM

Mr. Barror,

Your posts are incoherant at best - just stop and read them. Your writing should be done in Word and run through spell check, and grammar check - please man, these monster paragraphs are unreadable -

In addition, I think that since you want to continue to beat this VERY DEAD HORSE - why not send the offending parties a private email?

Mods, PLEASE.... :bang:

KoreanWarrior

11-Jul-2006, 01:34 PM

Hi All

I have a simple question. If Master G was a great teacher and taught all of you Black Belts. Why did he move? I just don't understand why he moved away from all his students?
Usually when someone moves its for other reasons?

KW

Dave Barror

12-Jul-2006, 12:17 AM

He moved to a warmer climate for the heath of a family member

dngrruss

12-Jul-2006, 07:03 PM

I think this thread should be closed as well. While I think that exposing any fraud or negligence in MA is very important and needed, this is not really the appropriate forum to do it. Any information or review of someone's credentials or ability should not be put in the hands of either bitter, former students/staff or current starry-eyed students/staff. Neither can be objective nor trusted with their opinions.

While I don't think that Bullshido should be the only place that such debates should be held, doing such here should be done in as objective a manner as possible. Name calling nor nutriding are productive.

kickingsbn

18-Jul-2006, 12:46 PM

Most studio owners I know use a non-compete agreement. It shouldn't be a problem unless you are going to try to cause problems. If you want to open a school; I don't know anyone as helpful as Master Gagne. He just doesn't want schools in the same system within 20 miles of each other. Master Gagne had to sign the same type of agreement himself.
I don't see the problem with cross training. I have studied under Master Gagne for years. I have a 4th dan in Tae Kwon Do and I have a Ju Jit Su club in my school. This has never been a problem with Master Gagne.
To belong to the USHA MGK it only costs $50 annually and Master Gagne helps with everything including curriculum and business consultation. The books and dvds are great. I am a master in TKD and can follow everything. I go to his school and he comes to mine to fine tune techniques. He teaches how to run the school, how much to charge,and how to teach classes. You can't beat this association. He just sent me an 8 hour dvd including Hapkido, Hankido, and Hangumdo. Three different arts with international certification. It couldn't be better. Master Gagne has more energy than most 20 year olds. He is always upbeat , positive , and motivating. If you want the facts contact me or Master Gagne direct. www.ushapki.com.
Anyone who would complain about an 8th dan ,by name, publicly needs to work on there own training. If I had a problem I would take it up with them respectfully, and directly. A public forum is not the place to bad mouth other martial artists. Master W.S. Worthington

Choiyoungwoo

25-Jul-2006, 03:04 AM

\A public forum is not the place to bad mouth other martial artists. Master W.S. Worthington

Yeah you're right, it's the perfect place to hold back and censor or withhold opinions, PLEASE :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang:

kickingsbn

28-Jul-2006, 12:20 PM

iron_ox

28-Jul-2006, 02:03 PM

I teach self control to white belt beginners......Spending your time negatively speaking about others, publicaly or otherwise, also negatively affects you. A good martial artist should censor himself and be humble. This is all I have to say!

Hello all,

WHAT are you talking about? Self control is one thing...and I don't teach it, I model it, because if an adult comes to my dojang without it, they got losey home training and I am unlikely to change that in any way except through modeling.

Now what is this "good martial artist" stuff - you have been watching too many re-runs of Kung-fu. We are not Master Po... this is HAPKIDO - its founder was not a philosopher - but a fighter, and a hard fair man by all accounts. No one should EVER censor themselves for HUMILITY - that statement is bizarre. If something is wrong, call it as wrong. Some people do not have a great facility for language, but they should never be suppressed from expression - we have had cultures that tried that last century in Europe - didn't turn out so good.

This is a reletively informal place for information, and while I would add that it is probably inappropriate to speak ill of people in the dojang, this is a place of exchange and ideas.

Suppress yourself if you want to, but let others have the freedom to choose their own path without judgement. In fact can you even see how hypocritical that is? To pass judegement on others speech not by saying they are incorrect but by saying they should listen to your example and not speak at all -

Dave Barror

28-Jul-2006, 03:12 PM

Dont Censor anything then but at least have the ball's to say it to the man face to face not on some internet forum.If North Carolina is to far away from you I'll stand in his place and I'm right here in michigan. Becouse your Right hapkido is fighting and I'm GREAT at it.But I warn you PACK A LUNCH

rangerwalker

28-Jul-2006, 06:27 PM

Removed at poster's request

iron_ox

28-Jul-2006, 06:57 PM

Hello all,

Isn't it weird that whenever someone asks about an Instructor ther is always one guy looking to post a challenge when the discussion is wound down?

Mr. Barror, once again your post astounds. Where and why did this type of behavior become necessary? This is an open forum, and a damn good one at that I think. If someone wants info about an instructor, they ask - now some may have glowing reports, others not so much, but this type of ridculous "challenge" is uncalled for. You cannot change anyone's personal experience with an individual or group - nor can you change their oportunity to come to an open forum and express their opinion. If your experience is different from someone elses then express that by all means, but this type of violence rhetoric demeans all of us in the community.

Have you never been taught that there is probably someone out there that may be a better fighter than you? I know that generally, this is what creates a certain "detente" among most of us, because even when we lose our tempers, you may issue a challange to the wrong person and wind up hurt - so most of us would just as soon continue civil, if not heated discussion.

Again, I am not for censoring anyone's opinion, but hey, stop embarrasing yourself.

Choiyoungwoo

28-Jul-2006, 06:59 PM

Hello all,

WHAT are you talking about? Self control is one thing...and I don't teach it, I model it, because if an adult comes to my dojang without it, they got losey home training and I am unlikely to change that in any way except through modeling.

Now what is this "good martial artist" stuff - you have been watching too many re-runs of Kung-fu. We are not Master Po... this is HAPKIDO - its founder was not a philosopher - but a fighter, and a hard fair man by all accounts. No one should EVER censor themselves for HUMILITY - that statement is bizarre. If something is wrong, call it as wrong. Some people do not have a great facility for language, but they should never be suppressed from expression - we have had cultures that tried that last century in Europe - didn't turn out so good.

This is a reletively informal place for information, and while I would add that it is probably inappropriate to speak ill of people in the dojang, this is a place of exchange and ideas.

Suppress yourself if you want to, but let others have the freedom to choose their own path without judgement. In fact can you even see how hypocritical that is? To pass judegement on others speech not by saying they are incorrect but by saying they should listen to your example and not speak at all -

I.O., somehow I knew you would see it that way,

and for the record I don't Spend all my time negatively speaking about others. I call it as I see it. online, or in person. Lets have an open discussion where no one has to hold back. that makes growth possible, We should be able to disagree without being disagreeable. But if you think something is wrong, who am I to tell you to "be nice and don't talk about that in public!" I am more suspicious now than ever of this guy, since his jae jah (students/disciples) don't seem to like an open public discussion. But I Hope I AM Wrong! If you feel strongly that he is just and correct, then fine, defend him as you will, as it is your right to do so. If his business practices are sound and solid as you say, then there is no reason why they/he can't withstand questioning, and you have little to worry about. But don't hide a discussion of something you don't like behind " censorship and humility"