Wing Chun & Tournaments [Archive]

Hoimun

15-Nov-2005, 04:17 PM

"The Wing Chun student learns to respond with what he or she is taught, without rules. When placed in a tournament situation, the person using Wing Chun would be disqualified based upon the fact that they would seek to take the opponent by any means. The Wing Chun fighter keeps an attack up until the opponent surrenders of their own volition, or until serious injury to them leads to their being effectively taken out."

The article is not "moot" on its point about kung fu as a system of fighting.

I agree with Master Anthony on this one. Though I do not see why we could not compete in a tournament with other martial arts/boxing styles.

Personally, I see alot of validity in his article about Wing Chun kuen being used in a Televised Competition. Yet there are more N.H.B.s off screen than people talk about.

People do not give our style credit for what it has already accomplished in tournament rings,... just because it has not been on 1 TV show? Sad. Though I can definitely understand that the possibilities of serious injury would be considerable,... why do people want to put it down with so much disrespect when compairing Wing Chun to other styles? :confused:

WingChun Lawyer

16-Nov-2005, 01:08 PM

Therefore, if you are seeking an art that emphasizes tournaments, trophies, and glory, Wing Chun is not for you. If, however, you want to learn a martial art that will help you to survive serious combat, then Wing Chun is the art for you.

...

The Wing Chun student learns to respond with what he or she is taught, without rules. When placed in a tournament situation, the person using Wing Chun would be disqualified based upon the fact that they would seek to take the opponent by any means.

And people ask why I left Wing Chun.

Sure, pal. Remaining isolated from fighters of other styles will certainly help you evaluate your skills correctly, specially if you do lots and lots of chi sau.

Because, see, Wing Chuners do not train regular kicks and punches and knee strikes. Nope. They ONLY AND EXCLUSIVELY train eye gouges and kicks to the knees and other deadly stuff. So they cannot compete safely. In fact, the two years of Wing Chun I did, where we did train punches and kicks and knees and elbows do not count, because it was not the real Wing Chun.

So wing chuners do not compete FOR THE SAKE OF THE OTHER GUY! WE WOULD INSTANTLY EXPLODE THE OTHER POOR BASTARD IF WE WENT CRAZY ON HIM!

But you must take our word for it, as we won´t prove it.

Ugh, depressing.

Playful Giant

16-Nov-2005, 02:22 PM

And people ask why I left Wing Chun.

Sure, pal. Remaining isolated from fighters of other styles will certainly help you evaluate your skills correctly, specially if you do lots and lots of chi sau.

Because, see, Wing Chuners do not train regular kicks and punches and knee strikes. Nope. They ONLY AND EXCLUSIVELY train eye gouges and kicks to the knees and other deadly stuff. So they cannot compete safely. In fact, the two years of Wing Chun I did, where we did train punches and kicks and knees and elbows do not count, because it was not the real Wing Chun.

So wing chuners do not compete FOR THE SAKE OF THE OTHER GUY! WE WOULD INSTANTLY EXPLODE THE OTHER POOR BASTARD IF WE WENT CRAZY ON HIM!

But you must take our word for it, as we won´t prove it.

Ugh, depressing.

The trouble is that wing chun was designed as a self defence art as opposed to point scoring. However, you can easily adapt the skills you have learnt to compete at tournament level. I know a semi contact tournament fighter (who is crap and not a good representative of karate) who I always beat on 'points' using wing chun!

I train sparring with a lot of Martial Artist's and I tend to beat them, not because wing chun is superior, but because I know the art they do, but they do not know mine!!

You cannot throw a traditional wing chun artist in the ring against a tournament fighter, because our punches are designed to hurt rather than score points. Secondly the wing chun footwork is not designed to chase a loose fighter around. It is designed to increase the power of attack and defence.

As a wing chun fighter attempting ring sport, they need to learn other styles to compliment what they have already.

People always get cynical about wing chun being a deadly art that explodes peoples heads, etc. Wing chun is designed to take a person down quickly rather than gain points.

Yohan

16-Nov-2005, 02:30 PM

The article is not "moot" on its point about kung fu as a system of fighting.

I agree with Master Anthony on this one. Though I do not see why we could not compete in a tournament with other martial arts/boxing styles.

Personally, I see alot of validity in his article about Wing Chun kuen being used in a Televised Competition. Yet there are more N.H.B.s off screen than people talk about.

People do not give our style credit for what it has already accomplished in tournament rings,... just because it has not been on 1 TV show? Sad. Though I can definitely understand that the possibilities of serious injury would be considerable,... why do people want to put it down with so much disrespect when compairing Wing Chun to other styles?

No one else on this thread (WSL aside) put down wing chun, or disrespected it, or even compared it to wing chun. I think it's funny that half of the wing chun community is defending their style against imaginary attackers.

Hoimun, instead of being confident in your style and abilities, you obviously doubt both. Otherwise, you would not feel it necessary to randomly defend your style against an attack that wasn't even there. The only thing I said was, that the article did not apply to a SPECIFIC thread in the kung fu section because the author of the article was commenting on point-sparring and forms competitions.

WingChun Lawyer

16-Nov-2005, 05:38 PM

1)The trouble is that wing chun was designed as a self defence art as opposed to point scoring. However, you can easily adapt the skills you have learnt to compete at tournament level.

2) I train sparring with a lot of Martial Artist's and I tend to beat them, not because wing chun is superior, but because I know the art they do, but they do not know mine!!

3) You cannot throw a traditional wing chun artist in the ring against a tournament fighter, because our punches are designed to hurt rather than score points. Secondly the wing chun footwork is not designed to chase a loose fighter around. It is designed to increase the power of attack and defence.

4) As a wing chun fighter attempting ring sport, they need to learn other styles to compliment what they have already.

5) Wing chun is designed to take a person down quickly rather than gain points.

1) We agree on that.

2) So you admit it is possible to use WC without exploding people´s heads, since you spar with it. Why not compete them? Competition is nothing more than really, REALLY hard sparring.

3) Pathetic. Ever heard of a style whose punches are NOT intended to hurt? I can think of ATA TKD and nothing more - WC punches are, 99% of the time, weak arm punches with no shoulder behind them; what my MT coach calls "cat punches" (cats will keep their heads behind while clawing, same as many wing chuners). And you need "loose" footwork to get out of the way of a powerfull attack, and to attack someone else. It is essential. You are indeed vastly overestimating your style.

4) Yes. Grappling, at least.

5) As opposed to, say, boxing, which is designed for use in children´s parties and bar mitzvahs. Give me a break. WC is not better than anything else out there in the sports department, and it is frequently worse. What makes it worse, in fact, are the sort of attitudes expressed on that article - "let´s keep our heads firmly stuck between our buttocks so as not to see if we can actually carry ourselves against people from other styles, so let´s not compete, because we are too deadly".

Listen. MT has horrible kicks to the knees, eye gouges, elbow strikes to the spine, and a bunch of other things, same as WC. But MT can, and is, used without those, because such techniques are relatively low percentage techniques, as opposed to punches, knees and kicks, which are the bread and butter of the style. So MT fighters enter and win competitions, same as Kyokushin people, Kickboxers, etc. And when such people lose, they admit it and keep training.

WC, on the other hand, is famous for that sort of excuses. Yes, there are some decent coaches out there who compete, but sadly they are only a handful - in my experience, most prefer to hide their heads in the sand, same as Sifu Roberts.

"Too deadly to spar" and "made for Tha Street" are no excuses to avoid competitions.

Slindsay

16-Nov-2005, 05:47 PM

As opposed to, say, boxing, which is designed for use in children´s parties and bar mitzvahs.

I read this and nearly died.

splodge

16-Nov-2005, 05:59 PM

WingChun Lawyer

16-Nov-2005, 06:08 PM

WingChun Lawyer: Sifu Robert Anthony's instructor is Sifu Scott Baker who you may know has fought in many competitions such as PRIDE fighting and so his views are based real experiences. I believe that WC is diluted massively when you put it into a tournament setting. There are WC people that fight in tourneys but they their WC is diluted and so it is not 'real' wing chun.

Wait a minute.

So this guy´s sifu has walked the walk, and this individual decides to talk the talk, is that it? Does his opinions come, maybe, from the proeminent lack of success of WC at Pride?

Sad. Those people should train more, enter competitions, and win some trophies BEFORE deciding their art is too deadly for the ring.

About WC being "diluted" in competitions...how so? AFAIK the most relevant techniques of WC, the bread and butter, are the straight punches and the low kicks, as well as elbows and knees. Many, many competitions allow all those techniques to be fully used - even if you decide to diss K-1 and Pride, there are always MT and Kickboxing competitions.

Hell, I bet you can do pretty much anything you want in kickboxing matches in Thailand. Why a wing chuner has not gone there?

Nope, sorry. IMHO, WC will only improve when

1) More sifus allow hard sparring and competition with people from other styles;

2) A "loose" footwork is adopted;

3) The hook, cross and jab are adopted.

Until then, nope. WC will keep sharing the retarded seat of martial arts with Sport TKD.

EternalRage

16-Nov-2005, 06:13 PM

The author of this article isn't saying anything new. Pretty much your basic "too deadly for competition" excuse. My WC master enjoyed and encouraged his students to compete, in any sort of tournaments, whether it be point or continuous, full contact, or whatever.

My TSD master always said that if one is truly good at what he does, it doesn't matter whether it's NHB rules, or Lei Tai rules, or the street, or kickboxing rules, or even Olympic WTF sparring rules - a truly good martial artist will be able to adapt his system to be successful under any circumstances.

Wing Chun too deadly for the competition because they train "kicks to the lower extremities, elbows, grabbing an opponent's leg, or blocking a kick with another kick"? What the hell does he think all these other systems are teaching? WC has sole domain over the eye gouge, groin kick, and knee kicks? Elbows too? Ridiculous. Many practitioners of systems that do teach these things compete and they are able to control what they do.

Not only that, but most of us would agree with the maxim "you fight the way you train." The endless repetitions, the development of power on pads/bags, the commitment of movements to muscle memory and instinct - all have a direct effect on the way you fight. So how does WC train all these special eye gouges, knee kicks, groin kicking etc? They do point of contact drills where they stop in front of their target. Now applying our said maxim, if you train and stop in front of your target over and over again for years and years, every time you spar/fight, you will do exactly that. Because that is what you trained to do. Stop in front of your target. It messes up your timing and distance. I'd rather bet on an eye gouge from someone who doesn't practice it as often as WCer's do, at least they wouldn't have engaged in endless training that would create bad habits like stopping in front of a target.

That being said, I have heard of WC schools that actually engage in full contact sparring in street environments (alleys and such) and wear eye goggles and heavy padding so they can go crazy on each other. If you're doing WC with these special deadly techniques without actually hitting a person in a live situation, you're gonna be shooting blanks.

Let's look at Wing Chun without the deadly techniques. They train the same things: punching, side kicking, front kicking, etc - usually in point of contact drills. What's a point of contact drill? It's like a one step where someone throws an attack, and the other guy defends it. They sometimes do it fast with power, sometimes even with real striking - pretty good training for point sparring I'd say because it's not continuous and you're developing a strong response to a single attack. WC not made for the point competition? Rubbish. That's the way they seem to train it!

Sick of hearing/seeing things like this. The WC club (separate from my master) at my university doesn't spar. They just do POC drills and chi sao all day long. Blah blah blah.

EternalRage

16-Nov-2005, 06:16 PM

Until then, nope. WC will keep sharing the retarded seat of martial arts with Sport TKD.

I'd say Sport TKD is a level up from WC, because at least their practitioners (on the most part, still have douchebags here and there) know that what they do is sport. Athleticism. Not fighting.

WingChun Lawyer

16-Nov-2005, 06:20 PM

Let's look at Wing Chun without the deadly techniques. They train the same things: punching, side kicking, front kicking, etc - usually in point of contact drills. What's a point of contact drill? It's like a one step where someone throws an attack, and the other guy defends it. They sometimes do it fast with power, sometimes even with real striking - pretty good training for point sparring I'd say because it's not continuous and you're developing a strong response to a single attack. WC not made for the point competition? Rubbish. That's the way they seem to train it!

Sick of hearing/seeing things like this. The WC club (separate from my master) at my university doesn't spar. They just do POC drills and chi sao all day long. Blah blah blah.

That´s pretty much how I trained WC. It´s useless: no hard, frequent sparring means no useful skills, simple as that.

I was beaten like a dog by a guy with 6 months of MT, and I had two years of "too deadly to spar, too deadly to compete" WC under my belt. My sifu defended the same rationale Mister Sifu Big Honcho Roberts defends, and I am living proof that you might as well play with legos to develop your fighting skills.

WingChun Lawyer

16-Nov-2005, 06:21 PM

I'd say Sport TKD is a level up from WC, because at least their practitioners (on the most part, still have douchebags here and there) know that what they do is sport. Athleticism. Not fighting.

AND they at least work up a sweat. Wing Chuners tend to be fat bastards. I stand corrected.

splodge

16-Nov-2005, 06:28 PM

Wing Chun Lawyer: Your arrogance really is quite something! "This guys sifu" as you state is a highly respected martial artist and fighter and so this article is based on walking the walk. His article is his opinion and yours is yours albeit not a very respectful one.

You are putting your own obvious lack of wing chun knowledge, ability and poor teaching for 2 years into every wing chun school out there. Sifu Robert actually has a MT fighter from thailand who he trains with and he states that MT fighters do not like to fight WC guys because of the incercepting kicks to the knees and this is a guy who is the real deal MT fighter with the purple legs and blood clots to prove it.

EternalRage: Everybody here seems to throw at wing chun that they never spar and they all do POC drills. In over 10 years of training in wing chun at various schools both sides of the atlantic I have never come across this method of 'training'. In order to train to fight you must get as close as safely possible to the real thing, i personally did 6 years of 5 nights a week full contact with my Sifu in England and so please do not throw us all into your pigeon hole although even this 'full contact' training was restrained from the obvious techniques like you mention which form a large part of the wing chun system.

In summary I dont believe that wing chun can show its effectiveness in a tournament setting but has often shown its effectiveness on the street.

WingChun Lawyer

16-Nov-2005, 06:40 PM

1) Wing Chun Lawyer: Your arrogance really is quite something! "This guys sifu" as you state is a highly respected martial artist and fighter and so this article is based on walking the walk. His article is his opinion and yours is yours albeit not a very respectful one.

2) In summary I dont believe that wing chun can show its effectiveness in a tournament setting but has often shown its effectiveness on the street.

1) Arrogant, moi? Please. I call anyone as I wish as long as I respect MAP´s TOS. Personally, I would call even Mas Oyama "that guy"...but I would say it in a very respectful tone, of course.

Incidentally, if the guy you mentioned has indeed entered Pride, I can certainly respect him. I might even listen if HE said WC can have problems entering formal competitions, as he has to be a world class fighter to even be considered for Pride.

But his student? A person who is more than likely bitter at the fact that his beloved sifu got beaten at Pride by a dirty, dirty Kickboxer or BJJ guy? Sorry, I do not believe he can be trusted to issue a fair opinion on the adequacy of WC to championships.

So, quite frankly, even though my opinion is that of a MT and WC newbie, I believe it can be truste more than Mr. Robert´s, simply because I have no interest in lying or misrepresenting anything. He does.

2) Yes, you do. I have stated the reasons I believe there are no excuses. Kindly state yours.

WingChun Lawyer

16-Nov-2005, 06:43 PM

You are putting your own obvious lack of wing chun knowledge, ability and poor teaching for 2 years into every wing chun school out there. Sifu Robert actually has a MT fighter from thailand who he trains with and he states that MT fighters do not like to fight WC guys because of the incercepting kicks to the knees and this is a guy who is the real deal MT fighter with the purple legs and blood clots to prove it.

Yes, by all means attack the messenger instead of addressing my points.
I believe I was pretty clear when I said I know of some WC sifus who actually compete and train hard, and who therefore deserve respect.

About this "and he states that MT fighters do not like to fight WC guys because of the incercepting kicks to the knees" argument...well, so what? Where is the VIDEO of a WC guy using such a fight-winning strategy to beat the evil, evil thai fighter?

splodge

16-Nov-2005, 06:55 PM

1) Arrogant, moi? Please. I call anyone as I wish as long as I respect MAP´s TOS. Personally, I would call even Mas Oyama "that guy"...but I would say it in a very respectful tone, of course.

Incidentally, if the guy you mentioned has indeed entered Pride, I can certainly respect him. I might even listen if HE said WC can have problems entering formal competitions, as he has to be a world class fighter to even be considered for Pride.

But his student? A person who is more than likely bitter at the fact that his beloved sifu got beaten at Pride by a dirty, dirty Kickboxer or BJJ guy? Sorry, I do not believe he can be trusted to issue a fair opinion on the adequacy of WC to championships.

So, quite frankly, even though my opinion is that of a MT and WC newbie, I believe it can be truste more than Mr. Robert´s, simply because I have no interest in lying or misrepresenting anything. He does.

2) Yes, you do. I have stated the reasons I believe there are no excuses. Kindly state yours.

1) 'The guy' has entered pride and many other tourneys and as I have said is a highly respected fighter within the community. I know that Robert is not bitter about any losses that his Sifu has incurred or indeed his wins that he got (hold on did I say a WC guy actually beat someone in a competition! surely not! :rolleyes: ) as he accepts that in competitions we sometimes win and sometimes lose. He was giving his opinion as to why he feels WC is not as effective in that environment.

2) As I have stated that because of a large part of the WC systems principle target areas being out of bounds that it would not represent the ability of the wing chun student. It would make him half the fighter that he is.

I am not saying WC is the ultimate art and I have never stressed that, indeed that is why i have also training in boxing, kickboxing, JKD, Lau Gar and BJJ but tourney rules go against everything I have been taught in wing chun. An example would be in a street fight I always look at taking out the lead leg with a knee stomp whereas my boxing buddies always look to deliver a jab to set up a cross/hook, this is an example of how I could not apply my WC in a tournament but a boxer can apply everything he knows in it.

splodge

16-Nov-2005, 06:58 PM

About this "and he states that MT fighters do not like to fight WC guys because of the incercepting kicks to the knees" argument...well, so what? Where is the VIDEO of a WC guy using such a fight-winning strategy to beat the evil, evil thai fighter?

There actually is such a video as it happens and I will try to locate it, a thai round kick is stopped with a incercepting kick to the knee which break the thai guys leg.

I am also sure there are videos of MT fighters beating WC fighters, neither has the monopoly on the ultimate martial art but one is definetly more applicable to competition fighting which is my point.

EternalRage

16-Nov-2005, 06:59 PM

EternalRage: Everybody here seems to throw at wing chun that they never spar and they all do POC drills. In over 10 years of training in wing chun at various schools both sides of the atlantic I have never come across this method of 'training'. In order to train to fight you must get as close as safely possible to the real thing, i personally did 6 years of 5 nights a week full contact with my Sifu in England and so please do not throw us all into your pigeon hole although even this 'full contact' training was restrained from the obvious techniques like you mention which form a large part of the wing chun system.

OH GOD IF YOU'VE NEVER SEEN THIS KIND OF TRAINING PLZ PLZ COME TO BALTIMORE. Ok then Splodgey, when you do your full contact sparring, do you throw your eye jabs and groin kicks at your opponent? Do you smash his knees and elbow him in the face? Probably not because you don't want to hurt your training partner right?

Then why can't you just take what you do there and then take it to a tournament? If it's good enough to mimic the street with, then it should be good enough for a tournament no?

WingChun Lawyer

16-Nov-2005, 07:00 PM

Splodge, if knee stomps were allowed, would you say WC would be OK to use in a competition?

WingChun Lawyer

16-Nov-2005, 07:02 PM

There actually is such a video as it happens and I will try to locate it, a thai round kick is stopped with a incercepting kick to the knee which break the thai guys leg.

I am also sure there are videos of MT fighters beating WC fighters, neither has the monopoly on the ultimate martial art but one is definetly more applicable to competition fighting which is my point.

Please do. Incidentally, in my opinion the only good thing WC has ever taught me were those low front kicks, I believe they can be good for attacks and defenses.

But I still don´t believe WC would suddenly become anything better than it really is, in competition terms, if stomp kicks to the knees were allowed.

splodge

16-Nov-2005, 07:11 PM

OH GOD IF YOU'VE NEVER SEEN THIS KIND OF TRAINING PLZ PLZ COME TO BALTIMORE. Ok then Splodgey, when you do your full contact sparring, do you throw your eye jabs and groin kicks at your opponent? Do you smash his knees and elbow him in the face? Probably not because you don't want to hurt your training partner right?

Then why can't you just take what you do there and then take it to a tournament? If it's good enough to mimic the street with, then it should be good enough for a tournament no?

Sounds like I do not want to go and train in Baltimore!

Of course we did not employ the techniques you mention in our sparring and I could 'spar' in a tourney, but you are missing me whole point.........when sparring, you are limited and so in a tourney the WC techniques are limited and therefore you lose a lot of the effectiveness of the WC system. Which is what I believe the article says.

Taff

16-Nov-2005, 07:11 PM

2)Why not compete them? Competition is nothing more than really, REALLY hard sparring.

3) WC punches are, 99% of the time, weak arm punches with no shoulder behind them;

Listen. MT has horrible kicks to the knees, eye gouges, elbow strikes to the spine, and a bunch of other things, same as WC. But MT can, and is, used without those, because such techniques are relatively low percentage techniques, as opposed to punches, knees and kicks, which are the bread and butter of the style.

2) Why must people compete at all? I enjoy sparring but I don't see any need to compete.

3) You can get power in a punch without shoulder. I have no choice but to do it without the shoulder on one side because I have a shoulder injury. The power comes from the lower body, twisting at the hips and dropping the knee.

I agree with at least part of your final point. I'm not a huge fan of the "eye jabs are guaranteed fight enders" belief, and I don't think they are percentage techniques at all.

splodge

16-Nov-2005, 07:13 PM

Splodge, if knee stomps were allowed, would you say WC would be OK to use in a competition?

As my above post indicates, wing chun is severely limited is you cannot employ are large chunk of the system and so its effectiveness in the ring is therefore limited also.

Topher

16-Nov-2005, 07:16 PM

2) So you admit it is possible to use WC without exploding people´s heads, since you spar with it. Why not compete them? Competition is nothing more than really, REALLY hard sparring.

I dont disagree that Wing Chun can technically be used in competitions, but the fact is it will be watered down. The fact is there is some things a WC guy cannot do in competitions, but are effective for street level fighting.

It wouldn't also be fair that a MMA or MT fighter could use all the stuff that he has trained for, but the WC guy has to eliminate many of the things he trains because there no allowed. You'll take out some of the most effective stuff.

Taff

16-Nov-2005, 07:25 PM

I've an example where I had to remove a piece of t3h d34dly Wing Chun arsenal for sparring. For a while, a friend who does JJ refused to spar with me because he didn't like me chopping to his neck. Fair enough! The problem was that this particular technique (bong sao, lap sao, chop) was ingrained in me, and it was a real mental struggle to not do it during sparring. It was a bit like that thing where you can't quite pat your head and rub your stomach at the same time. It feels like you're fighting your own brain.

So I had to replace a more efficient technique with a less efficient one, and in doing so, eventually had to alter my "natural" reaction.

This is a problem. Because chi sao teaches you to react instinctively, you might have to remove some of those instincts if you want to spar full contact, because under pressure the techniques will come out regardless.
So in essence, in order to get improve your fighting ability through sparring, you have to remove some of your better techniques from your arsenal.

EternalRage

16-Nov-2005, 07:30 PM

Of course we did not employ the techniques you mention in our sparring and I could 'spar' in a tourney, but you are missing me whole point.........when sparring, you are limited and so in a tourney the WC techniques are limited and therefore you lose a lot of the effectiveness of the WC system. Which is what I believe the article says.

Ok so then many other traditional martial arts systems also teach things such as eye gouging, knee stomping, arm breaks, and a whole host of other techniques that can't be used in competition. Would you also agree that in competition, say for example, Tang Soo Do would also be watered down? After all, I'm not allowed to eye gouge, groin kick, or any of the other techniques in our self defense repetoire.

And if you would agree that many, many other arts are watered down in competition, why is it that they can live with it in competition and still make their systems work (albeit with the rules), but Wing Chun can't? The author of that article is saying that WC is too deadly and using that as an excuse to NOT advocate competition. Many other arts are just as deadly. Karate, TKD, TSD, we all have self defense techniques that cannot be used in tournament. How is Wing Chun at a greater disadvantage? The way I see it, the rules hamper everyone to the same effect. Yet you do not see other systems running around saying ie "Karate is too deadly for competition" or "Kenpo is too deadly for competition."

Topher

16-Nov-2005, 07:34 PM

Not only that, but most of us would agree with the maxim "you fight the way you train." The endless repetitions, the development of power on pads/bags, the commitment of movements to muscle memory and instinct - all have a direct effect on the way you fight. So how does WC train all these special eye gouges, knee kicks, groin kicking etc? They do point of contact drills where they stop in front of their target. Now applying our said maxim, if you train and stop in front of your target over and over again for years and years, every time you spar/fight, you will do exactly that. Because that is what you trained to do. Stop in front of your target. It messes up your timing and distance. I'd rather bet on an eye gouge from someone who doesn't practice it as often as WCer's do, at least they wouldn't have engaged in endless training that would create bad habits like stopping in front of a target.

I agree, you will fight the way your train. Which is why sport training in my eyes wont to any good. You'll be used to long sparring matches, fighting fellow practitioners etc. We train hard techniques (i.e. you dont stop it you get hit), multiple attackers, pinned against the wall, haymakers etc.

The only time there we stop in front of our traget is direct knees/punches to the face and head (for obvious reasons), but even then is pretty close. Still sometimes take a hit.

That being said, I have heard of WC schools that actually engage in full contact sparring in street environments (alleys and such) and wear eye goggles and heavy padding so they can go crazy on each other. If you're doing WC with these special deadly techniques without actually hitting a person in a live situation, you're gonna be shooting blanks.

Let's look at Wing Chun without the deadly techniques. They train the same things: punching, side kicking, front kicking, etc - usually in point of contact drills. What's a point of contact drill? It's like a one step where someone throws an attack, and the other guy defends it. They sometimes do it fast with power, sometimes even with real striking - pretty good training for point sparring I'd say because it's not continuous and you're developing a strong response to a single attack. WC not made for the point competition? Rubbish. That's the way they seem to train it!

As for your "point of contact" thing, we train feeding techniques where it might be one attack, two, six. Although because we attack and defend together we try to do the damage instantly, but we still train further attacks. In Chi Sao your are constantly looking for openings and defending continus attacks.

As for sparring, first you need to define it, because a lot of arts have different ideas. I believe sport based sparring and defence based sparring are totally different, with different aims. While i don’t discredit sport style sparring, for Wing Chun it's aim is utterly useless. For Wing Chun or self defence for that matter I don’t think you can stick to one type of "sparring" because the need for self defence can occur in different ways and a certain type of sparring, no matter how good and effective it is just wont work for that specific situation.

When a 'sport guy’ looks a Wing Chun ‘sparring’ he's like, "what the hells that, it's not sparring", and of course it isn't - from his sport/ring perspective.

splodge

16-Nov-2005, 07:36 PM

EternalRage

16-Nov-2005, 07:48 PM

As Taff has indicated above and I keep repeating myself the very essence of how wing chun works involves these 'too deadly' techniques in its very principles so in order to transfer it to the ring it wouldnt be wing chun but a very poor relative.

Lol and I keep repeating how the essence of most other martial arts are no different yet how they can adapt but WC can't? That's a lie. I've seen it done well in competition. I've seen it done bad. What I haven't seen is any other system making "too deadly" claims like WC has done. What are other systems for then? Ballet? Ok some like TKD have evolved into sport. Countless others have not. They are just as deadly as WC. They were created out of a need for self defense. They have evolved with this essence intact as you put it. Yet they are able to adapt.

Taff

16-Nov-2005, 07:54 PM

Lol and I keep repeating how the essence of most other martial arts are no different yet how they can adapt but WC can't? That's a lie. I've seen it done well in competition. I've seen it done bad. What I haven't seen is any other system making "too deadly" claims like WC has done. What are other systems for then? Ballet? Ok some like TKD have evolved into sport. Countless others have not. They are just as deadly as WC. They were created out of a need for self defense. They have evolved with this essence intact as you put it. Yet they are able to adapt.

I guess because most of WC is done in contact, hence a greater emphasis on reacting without actually having anytime to think before hand (alot of the time you will barely even see what is coming at you, so it's all about contact sensitivity, where your conscious mind cannot really be involved).
It's much harder to "deprogram" techniques out of your subconscious than it is from your conscious mind.

EternalRage

16-Nov-2005, 07:55 PM

I agree, you will fight the way your train. Which is why sport training in my eyes wont to any good. You'll be used to long sparring matches, fighting fellow practitioners etc. We train hard techniques (i.e. you dont stop it you get hit), multiple attackers, pinned against the wall, haymakers etc.

By that rationale, how is it you can train all these deadly techniques? I'm not talking about just knees and elbows to the midsection or head - plenty of systems train that live. You guys kick each other in the knees? Smashes to the elbow? You poke each others eyes out? You're saying that sport training and certain types of sparring build habits that are bad for fighting. Fair enough. Nothing is the street.

Well I'm saying that the sparring that you do engage in DOESN'T build the skills that some people (like that author) claim to make WC into "too deadly" of a style for competition. The eye gouges, the knee stomps, the strikes to the throat, the smashes to the groin etc etc - you train them in live situations as much as any other system. You don't actually make contact. Your training partners would flip out if you did.

Taff

16-Nov-2005, 07:58 PM

EternalRage

16-Nov-2005, 07:59 PM

I guess because most of WC is done in contact, hence a greater emphasis on reacting without actually having anytime to think before hand (alot of the time you will barely even see what is coming at you, so it's all about contact sensitivity, where your conscious mind cannot really be involved).
It's much harder to "deprogram" techniques out of your subconscious than it is from your conscious mind.

Emphasis on reacting without having to think? That's like the goal of every martial arts system out there, sport or not! Who the heck wants to sit around all day for a punch to come eat their face? Again, sensitivity, training blazing speed isn't unique to Wing Chun. Virtually all martial arts strive for this "reacting without thinking."

Topher

16-Nov-2005, 08:12 PM

By that rationale, how is it you can train all these deadly techniques? I'm not talking about just knees and elbows to the midsection or head - plenty of systems train that live. You guys kick each other in the knees? Smashes to the elbow? You poke each others eyes out? You're saying that sport training and certain types of sparring build habits that are bad for fighting. Fair enough. Nothing is the street.

Well I'm saying that the sparring that you do engage in DOESN'T build the skills that some people (like that author) claim to make WC into "too deadly" of a style for competition. The eye gouges, the knee stomps, the strikes to the throat, the smashes to the groin etc etc - you train them in live situations as much as any other system. You don't actually make contact. Your training partners would flip out if you did.
Ultimatly i'm saying train for your needs. For example against a hook i would tan sao with a fak sao to the throat. The fak sao isn't full contact but then the attempt at it would result in disqualification in a competition. This technique is natural for me, an instant reaction to a hook so it's very hard to not use it.

We do kick in the knee with some contact, we also dont just stop once contact is made, but continue to get the feel of pushing the knee in. Because our training partner is aware of this he can add slight cooperation for this. On the street the stamping motion is the same regardless, but much quicker and harder. We dont just stamp to the knee cap, but also the side and back of the knee (to drop them).

I feel competitions would build habits i dont want. Long sparring rounds (i want to focus on powerful blasts that get it done in seconds), removing some of the most effective techniques (throats strikes can stop anyone, period). I feel the competition sparring is too flat. For self defence you need to vary the type of sparring you do (as i mentioned in my last post).

Topher

16-Nov-2005, 08:15 PM

Emphasis on reacting without having to think? That's like the goal of every martial arts system out there, sport or not! Who the heck wants to sit around all day for a punch to come eat their face? Again, sensitivity, training blazing speed isn't unique to Wing Chun. Virtually all martial arts strive for this "reacting without thinking."
But our reactions would be illegal in competitions ;)

Topher

16-Nov-2005, 08:53 PM

EternalRage

17-Nov-2005, 02:35 AM

Also, if i’m under pressure I look for vulnerable areas (throat, eyes, groin etc), hair pulling if necessary to finish it. If a Wing Chun guy is under pressure in a competition they wouldn’t be able to use their fundamental principles and training. A competition fighter could uses everything they train, hence the Wing Chun guy would more likely loose.

By competition fighter, do you mean just any old practitioner of X martial art, because many styles out there do as much self defense as Wing Chun and still go to tournaments without the "i'm too deadly for competition" excuse. Karate, TKD, TSD, we all have as much self defense as WC. Like I keep saying, WC is not unique in that it's for fighting.

I feel competitions would build habits i dont want. Long sparring rounds (i want to focus on powerful blasts that get it done in seconds), removing some of the most effective techniques (throats strikes can stop anyone, period). I feel the competition sparring is too flat. For self defence you need to vary the type of sparring you do (as i mentioned in my last post).

I already said I don't disagree with the fact that competitions, assuming that's all you train for and if that's all you do, will cause bad habits for fighting.

We do kick in the knee with some contact, we also dont just stop once contact is made, but continue to get the feel of pushing the knee in. Because our training partner is aware of this he can add slight cooperation for this. On the street the stamping motion is the same regardless, but much quicker and harder. We dont just stamp to the knee cap, but also the side and back of the knee (to drop them).

This is the point I'm disagreeing with. You just wrote in that quote that you don't practice your technique against a fully resistant opponent 100% as you would a side kick or front kick. This quote brings up two points to my mind:
1.) You said before that competition will build bad habits. Well so will the way you do your knee kicking drills. You are trained to feel for your partner's cooperation. You are trained to do it slow and soft. Like you agreed with me before, the way you train is the way you fight. What I'm getting at is that these "lethal uber deadly techniques" that keep WC from competition are impossible to train in a realistic training setting (unlike a sidekick or a front kick or a jab, etc etc).

2.) When you spar and do this thing to the knees in the manner you specified, it shows that you aren't allowed to bash your partner in the knee like its life and death. That's a rule. When you spar, you have rules. The article said that WC is unfit for competition because the basic essence of WC is degraded with the rules of competition. Then how do you guys spar?? That means your WC is degraded in sparring too?!? Then the only true way to train it is on the street then, poking out eyes, smashing groins and knees?

(lol actually maybe that explains why most WC don't like to spar :D )

Topher

17-Nov-2005, 06:11 AM

By competition fighter, do you mean just any old practitioner of X martial art, because many styles out there do as much self defense as Wing Chun and still go to tournaments without the "i'm too deadly for competition" excuse. Karate, TKD, TSD, we all have as much self defense as WC. Like I keep saying, WC is not unique in that it's for fighting.

I beg to differ. They don’t have just as much self defence. Some of the core aspects of Wing Chun go against competition rules. Unlike some of the styles you listed (and I also to TSD) Wing Chun is built for self defence and has been adapted for modern life. Those styles may have self defence in them, but the whole system isn’t self defence orientated. I’m sorry but a system that focus on a certain area of fighting (kicking) wont have the upper hand in street fighting compard to a system that has a more broad striking focus.

While more importantly it’s the way in which it’s learnt, you need the practical street level techniques there in the first place.

This is the point I'm disagreeing with. You just wrote in that quote that you don't practice your technique against a fully resistant opponent 100% as you would a side kick or front kick. This quote brings up two points to my mind:

1.) You said before that competition will build bad habits. Well so will the way you do your knee kicking drills. You are trained to feel for your partner's cooperation. You are trained to do it slow and soft. Like you agreed with me before, the way you train is the way you fight. What I'm getting at is that these "lethal uber deadly techniques" that keep WC from competition are impossible to train in a realistic training setting (unlike a sidekick or a front kick or a jab, etc etc).

2.) When you spar and do this thing to the knees in the manner you specified, it shows that you aren't allowed to bash your partner in the knee like its life and death. That's a rule. When you spar, you have rules. The article said that WC is unfit for competition because the basic essence of WC is degraded with the rules of competition. Then how do you guys spar?? That means your WC is degraded in sparring too?!? Then the only true way to train it is on the street then, poking out eyes, smashing groins and knees?

(lol actually maybe that explains why most WC don't like to spar :D )

I feel you've miss read what i said. For a technique that can break someone’s leg in half, no i dont expect to be allowed to start training it full power, full resistance. Of course when you build more control you kick against resistance. Usually powerful kicks are not dont straight against the knee cap, but kicks against other parts of the leg (side/back of knee or thigh) are. Although we do use contact for knee kick it's just too dangerous to kick someone to the front of the knee full on.

I think you need to separate sparring for different areas of self defence because traditional type sparring is too flat. No matter how alive or good it is, it just won’t fit all situations.

Feeding techniques to deal with an attack… be it a hook, straight, uppercut, grab, trap, tackle, headlock, choke etc. It might be one attack or multiple. Remember that someone on the street might innocently stop you or come up to you then try to grab/assault or mug you, or you might have someone in your face then throw an attack. It's not always attack after attack. You can do this with multiple attackers, as soon as you counter one the other attacks as so on.

Chi Sao can work for longer continuous attacks, maybe someone attempting to close in, take you down, grabs, holds etc. You learn to flow with it by feeling them.

Then you can pad up and go for more brawling, punch after punch type stuff etc.

Of course there are rules - you dont want to kill someone :rolleyes: but there not the same as competitions. We can train all our techniques, the only rules are the obvious ones, i.e. not stamping someone’s leg in half or smashing there throat in etc, of course, accident can happen.

I agree with your last comment, the only way to truely train it is on the street because there are other factors to deal with that you dont get in training.

Playful Giant

17-Nov-2005, 09:23 AM

WingChun Lawyer

17-Nov-2005, 11:00 AM

Wingchun Lawyer - your attitude astounds me (that's not a good thing). It's obvious you have been taught wing chun under a poor teacher or one who couldn't show you how wing chun can be applied at tournament level. I'm proud to say that our Sifu Kevin Chan trains K1 fighters and spars with them. He has no problem landing punches (with shoulder behind them).

...

I do not understand your mentality that 'you will only ever respect a wing chun fighter if he has been in Pride, etc'.

LEARN TO READ. I heard of Kevin Chan, I know he competes and trains competitors. My whole point was, MORE TEACHERS SHOULD BE LIKE HIM.

And I never said I will only respect a WC fighter if he has been in Pride. What I meant was that WC people who do not compete at all (even in a local level) are at a disadvantage when compared to people who do compete (people of any martial arts, mind), while WC people who do not spar might as well play with legos to develop fighting skills.

I believe my points (and Eternal Rage´s) are those.

1) Hard contact is essential to develop fighting skills.

2) Frequent, hard sparring is therefore essential.

3) Competition works as an evaluator of one´s skills and as contact practice.

4) Certain techniques are indeed too dangerous to use during sparring or competition. The problem is, those are also the low percentage moves which you are unlikely to use successfully against a skilled, fully resisting opponent who is fighting back. So you should train them, but you should not rely on them exclusively.

5) As a consequence of 4, the practice and study of dangerous techniques is no excuse to avoid hard sparring or competition.

6) In particular, WC does not have as its base "too deadly to spar with" techniques. In all the classes I went to, the most practiced techniques were knee strikes, punches and low kicks. If you do not believe me, trust the aforementioned Kevin Chan.

7) It cannot be said that competition WC is watered down and therefore less effective in a ring, because ALL systems have dangerous techniques. Therefore ALL fighters in a ring are limited in the exact same way. So a WC fighter using "watered down" WC is fighting a MT fighter using "watered down" MT as well. Therefore, there are no excuses.

Playful Giant

17-Nov-2005, 11:14 AM

LEARN TO READ. I heard of Kevin Chan, I know he competes and trains competitors. My whole point was, MORE TEACHERS SHOULD BE LIKE HIM.

And I never said I will only respect a WC fighter if he has been in Pride. What I meant was that WC people who do not compete at all (even in a local level) are at a disadvantage when compared to people who do compete (people of any martial arts, mind), while WC people who do not spar might as well play with legos to develop fighting skills.

I believe my points (and Eternal Rage´s) are those.

1) Hard contact is essential to develop fighting skills.

2) Frequent, hard sparring is therefore essential.

3) Competition works as an evaluator of one´s skills and as contact practice.

4) Certain techniques are indeed too dangerous to use during sparring or competition. The problem is, those are also the low percentage moves which you are unlikely to use successfully against a skilled, fully resisting opponent who is fighting back. So you should train them, but you should not rely on them exclusively.

5) As a consequence of 4, the practice and study of dangerous techniques is no excuse to avoid hard sparring or competition.

6) In particular, WC does not have as its base "too deadly to spar with" techniques. In all the classes I went to, the most practiced techniques were knee strikes, punches and low kicks. If you do not believe me, trust the aforementioned Kevin Chan.

7) It cannot be said that competition WC is watered down and therefore less effective in a ring, because ALL systems have dangerous techniques. Therefore ALL fighters in a ring are limited in the exact same way. So a WC fighter using "watered down" WC is fighting a MT fighter using "watered down" MT as well. Therefore, there are no excuses.

Very well put. I think the point that wing chun guys are trying to make is that most of the moves involved would be termed illegal. They might not necessarily be lethal moves, but may go against the rules of the comp. For example, all of the kicks in wing chun would be out of the window. Elbows, finger strikes, eye gouges, knife hands would be out!!

It would leave wing chun looking very skinny...

I agree that many martial arts out there would also be limited, but I think with wing chun the main bulk of it relies on 'illegal moves'.

Therefore, you have to adapt your style. The hitting power of wing chun can be used to great effect in the ring. Sticking hands works extremely well in grappling because you can remain relaxed while your opponent tires themselves out, etc

WingChun Lawyer

17-Nov-2005, 11:20 AM

Very well put. I think the point that wing chun guys are trying to make is that most of the moves involved would be termed illegal. They might not necessarily be lethal moves, but may go against the rules of the comp. For example, all of the kicks in wing chun would be out of the window. Elbows, finger strikes, eye gouges, knife hands would be out!!

It would leave wing chun looking very skinny...

I agree that many martial arts out there would also be limited, but I think with wing chun the main bulk of it relies on 'illegal moves'.

Therefore, you have to adapt your style. The hitting power of wing chun can be used to great effect in the ring. Sticking hands works extremely well in grappling because you can remain relaxed while your opponent tires themselves out, etc

Hm, I would not say WC relies so much on illegal moves. I would agree with the kicks though, WC kicks are indeed nasty. But the rest? I do not believe WC relies so much on eye gouges.

But the point, as you put it, is that it CAN be adapted. And even if the WC used in competition therefore becomes "skinny", as you said, the benefits the competitor will get from his experience will improve his game vastly.

In fact, I believe a competitor who does not use dangerous techniques in competition will become BETTER at using such moves in real life situations. Because he will acquire a highly developed delivery system, which will enable him to use such moves better than someone who does not regularly fight against skilled opponents!

Playful Giant

17-Nov-2005, 11:32 AM

[QUOTE=WingChun Lawyer]Hm, I would not say WC relies so much on illegal moves. I would agree with the kicks though, WC kicks are indeed nasty. But the rest? I do not believe WC relies so much on eye gouges.
QUOTE]

It doesn't rely solely on eye gouges, but if you look at the whole wing chun system, most of it is tournie illegal!!

forever young

17-Nov-2005, 04:29 PM

That´s pretty much how I trained WC. It´s useless: no hard, frequent sparring means no useful skills, simple as that.

I was beaten like a dog by a guy with 6 months of MT, and I had two years of "too deadly to spar, too deadly to compete" WC under my belt. My sifu defended the same rationale Mister Sifu Big Honcho Roberts defends, and I am living proof that you might as well play with legos to develop your fighting skills.
you say you had 2yrs exp before getting said ass handed to you with his 6 months mt, well how do you know whether a lifetime training any art and he might still have handed it to you. what if you went with 2.3 years or 3.4 or whatever the point im making is this if i take mike tyson, teach him say bong sau
do i then have the best system in the world? what about if i taught him sport tkd, would you spar with him? ANY system is only as good as the person doing it
as said you punch and kick in wc so i dunno unless you learn a secret punch or grow another leg in mt whats so great? when my ribs were busted during gor sau or a class mate got KO'd it felt fairly real i would say, when a TKD guy came to class and i sparred with him and spent more time picking him up i kind
of thought maybe it MIGHT just help me, but then again thats just me :rolleyes:

Topher

17-Nov-2005, 05:35 PM

LEARN TO READ. I heard of Kevin Chan, I know he competes and trains competitors. My whole point was, MORE TEACHERS SHOULD BE LIKE HIM.

And I never said I will only respect a WC fighter if he has been in Pride. What I meant was that WC people who do not compete at all (even in a local level) are at a disadvantage when compared to people who do compete (people of any martial arts, mind), while WC people who do not spar might as well play with legos to develop fighting skills.

I believe my points (and Eternal Rage´s) are those.

1) Hard contact is essential to develop fighting skills.
I agree. What dose competitions have to do with this

2) Frequent, hard sparring is therefore essential.
Yes. Define sparring. My sparring is not your sparring.

3) Competition works as an evaluator of one´s skills and as contact practice.
Yes, if your skill is competition training.

4) Certain techniques are indeed too dangerous to use during sparring or competition. The problem is, those are also the low percentage moves which you are unlikely to use successfully against a skilled, fully resisting opponent who is fighting back. So you should train them, but you should not rely on them exclusively.
Most of our "deadly stuff" is indeed very simple. Secondly i dont train for fight a "skilled opponent", hence the lack of need to spar against other styles.

5) As a consequence of 4, the practice and study of dangerous techniques is no excuse to avoid hard sparring or competition.
It's a very good excuse if it forces you to limit yourself.

6) In particular, WC does not have as its base "too deadly to spar with" techniques. In all the classes I went to, the most practiced techniques were knee strikes, punches and low kicks. If you do not believe me, trust the aforementioned Kevin Chan.
Yes, those techniques are very practical, along with simple deadly stuff!!1!

7) It cannot be said that competition WC is watered down and therefore less effective in a ring, because ALL systems have dangerous techniques. Therefore ALL fighters in a ring are limited in the exact same way. So a WC fighter using "watered down" WC is fighting a MT fighter using "watered down" MT as well. Therefore, there are no excuses.
The diffrence being these "deadly" techniques are in the very core of Wing Chun. Remove them and you remove a chunk of the system. A MT fighter trains in the ring and therefore can utilise all of that training. Imagine putting a BJJer in a stand up fight with takedowns and ground fighting illegal.

Topher

17-Nov-2005, 05:44 PM

In fact, I believe a competitor who does not use dangerous techniques in competition will become BETTER at using such moves in real life situations. Because he will acquire a highly developed delivery system, which will enable him to use such moves better than someone who does not regularly fight against skilled opponents!

Well put :eek: :D

I can see some benefits and experiance gained, but it shouldn't overide your core training.

One of the reason why i'd recommend cross-training (say grappling or FMA) so you can train stuff more suited to the test of competiton pressure.

I'm not overly against competitons, but i feel you need to put your training in context and in my eyes Wing Chun isn't for tournaments. I'm intrested in Sanshou and would do competitions in that.

WingChun Lawyer

17-Nov-2005, 06:09 PM

Homer, I will not answer your other points because, quite frankly, I already did.

But I will define sparring, as well as I can do it.

Sparring, as I understand it, can be translated as "combat training" - it is a drill where both participants are trying to do the same thing to each other, in a context where both are trying to perfect and apply the skills they would use in a real confrontation.

Now, this is a broad definition. We can narrow it down by adding "hard" to it, in which case both are trying to do the same thing to each other by putting every ounce of strength they have on it, while at the same time preventing the other from doing the same.

So judo randori is sparring, same as BJJ rolling around, same as Muay Thai fights, same as Kyokushin fights, same as boxing fights. In all cases you got two people trying to throw each other, submit each other, or beat each other to a pulp, within a minimum framework of rules to keep things as safe as possible.

Topher

17-Nov-2005, 06:41 PM

Homer, I will not answer your other points because, quite frankly, I already did.

But I will define sparring, as well as I can do it.

Sparring, as I understand it, can be translated as "combat training" - it is a drill where both participants are trying to do the same thing to each other, in a context where both are trying to perfect and apply the skills they would use in a real confrontation.

Thats where i disagree because in a street confrontation your wont always be aiming to do the same things. In a confrontation you probably don’t want to fight, they probably do. If you do however you’ll be aiming to defend yourself. Now you might hurt them as a result of defending yourself, but the fact is there are two totally different mind frames there. I can see the use of the sprawling type stuff, but I still think it’s important to vary it.

You should define sparring in the context of the style and your aims. The definition is right for the systems you mentioned, which incidentally were mainly sport based. I defind that i believe they are in Wing Chun in post #40 (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=687478&postcount=40).

WingChun Lawyer

17-Nov-2005, 06:55 PM

Thats where i disagree because in a street confrontation your wont always be aiming to do the same things. In a confrontation you probably don’t want to fight, they probably do. If you do however you’ll be aiming to defend yourself. Now you might hurt them as a result of defending yourself, but the fact is there are two totally different mind frames there. I can see the use of the sprawling type stuff, but I still think it’s important to vary it.

You should define sparring in the context of the style and your aims. The definition is right for the systems you mentioned, which incidentally were mainly sport based. I defind that i believe they are in Wing Chun in post #40 (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=687478&postcount=40).

Sparring is sparring. The rules vary with its goals, but not the drill itself: its purpose does not change as well (i.e. preparing someone to use his skills against a fully resisting opponent).

Yes, in a real situation obviously you are not trying to do the same thing as the attacker. But, and this is a very important point - THIS DOES NOT INVALIDATE SPARRING OR MAKES IT LESS NECESSARY. The skills you acquire through sparring are essential - damage absorption, power, precision, timing, footwork, everything is essential.

So this does not vary with the style. Sparring is used to teach some skills you have to learn by yourself, which you have to earn. Only now I have really understood it, in fact, after two years of Muay Thai.

The skills you develop in sparring will let you attack, defend, evade, and (gasp) even allow you to fight back using an improvised weapon, if need be. Because, if nothing else, YOU WON´T PANIC. You need this edge to use everything else.

About this...

Then you can pad up and go for more brawling, punch after punch type stuff etc.

"Of course there are rules - you dont want to kill someone but there not the same as competitions. We can train all our techniques, the only rules are the obvious ones, i.e. not stamping someone’s leg in half or smashing there throat in etc, of course, accident can happen."

It does seem like you spar. As long as you do it hard and often, your WC training cannot be as bad as mine was. But you do need to get some nosebleeds and bruises...

Topher

17-Nov-2005, 08:42 PM

Sparring is sparring. The rules vary with its goals, but not the drill itself: its purpose does not change as well (i.e. preparing someone to use his skills against a fully resisting opponent).

I agree to some degree, but the dill can change depending on how you are training. We train with someone against a wall, multiple attackers, from a headlock etc. Your aims might be the same, but you cannot apply the same drills/strategies for each of these hence the need to vary training.

WingChun Lawyer

18-Nov-2005, 01:25 PM

I agree to some degree, but the dill can change depending on how you are training. We train with someone against a wall, multiple attackers, from a headlock etc. Your aims might be the same, but you cannot apply the same drills/strategies for each of these hence the need to vary training.

Of course, some kinds of sparring are more suitable to certain goals than others, I agree with that. Still, ideally you should do all kinds necessary to develop all the skills you train in class. The problem then would be acquiring the necessary protective equipment, area of training, etc.

Guizzy

18-Nov-2005, 02:24 PM

In a way, I think people discredit the "too deadly to spar" argument a bit too quick.

Not that I mean any art is too deadly by itself, but many arts aim to have the shortest fight possible by striking vital points.

For instance, I train in White Crane Kung Fu (which is similar to Wing Chun in many regards). Our school has a heavy focus on self-defense rather than NHB/MMA/point sparring. The concept we rely on the most; the one we practice the most, is that we should deflect the blows and strike with a decisive hit.

So we practice speed and precision. I often spar, but with light contact, as it's not necessary to train being hit 4 times in a row on the head. Only while speed and precision are great when you strike for vital points, it's much less important in a ring than endurance, stamina and strength. All the time we train in speed and precision, a MMA fighter will train the other three. So in the street, I might be able to drop a MMA fighter very quickly in one strike to a vital point. It makes me the better fighter. In the ring, though, I can't, so my strikes will be comparatively weaker (since I've trained less strength), he'll outlast me with his stamina and KO me when I tire because I haven't trained for being repetitively hit over a 5 minutes period.

So a MA is not less practical or effective if it's not as competitive in the ring than arts created almost exclusively to compete.

WingChun Lawyer

18-Nov-2005, 03:15 PM

1) In a way, I think people discredit the "too deadly to spar" argument a bit too quick.

2) Not that I mean any art is too deadly by itself, but many arts aim to have the shortest fight possible by striking vital points.

3) For instance, I train in White Crane Kung Fu (which is similar to Wing Chun in many regards). Our school has a heavy focus on self-defense rather than NHB/MMA/point sparring. The concept we rely on the most; the one we practice the most, is that we should deflect the blows and strike with a decisive hit.

4) So we practice speed and precision. I often spar, but with light contact, as it's not necessary to train being hit 4 times in a row on the head.

5) Only while speed and precision are great when you strike for vital points, it's much less important in a ring than endurance, stamina and strength.

6) All the time we train in speed and precision, a MMA fighter will train the other three.

7) So in the street, I might be able to drop a MMA fighter very quickly in one strike to a vital point. It makes me the better fighter.

1) No they don´t. Your post didn´t change anything.

2) All arts do. Didn´t you know?

3) "Deflect the blows and strike with a decisive hit"...funny, that´s what I train as well. But since I spar hard, I know a decisive hit is hard to get. So I train to fight.

4) If you don´t spar heavy contact you might as well not spar. And yes, it is necessary to be hit in the head and to hit other people in the head to learn how to take hits and how to deliver hits in the head effectively. Not that your light sparring sifu has ever told you that, of course.

5) Your english fu, apparently, is also done only with light contact sparring.

6) Because "MMA fighters" (whatever that means) obviously do not train precision. You White Crane dudes have the monopoly on that.

7) Oh Lord, how delusional. See, THIS is the sort of sad behaviour commonly exhibited by wing chuners.

Guizzy

18-Nov-2005, 03:46 PM

1) No they don´t. Your post didn´t change anything.

2) All arts do. Didn´t you know?

3) "Deflect the blows and strike with a decisive hit"...funny, that´s what I train as well. But since I spar hard, I know a decisive hit is hard to get. So I train to fight.

4) If you don´t spar heavy contact you might as well not spar. And yes, it is necessary to be hit in the head and to hit other people in the head to learn how to take hits and how to deliver hits in the head effectively. Not that your light sparring sifu has ever told you that, of course.

5) Your english fu, apparently, is also done only with light contact sparring.

6) Because "MMA fighters" (whatever that means) obviously do not train precision. You White Crane dudes have the monopoly on that.

7) Oh Lord, how delusional. See, THIS is the sort of sad behaviour commonly exhibited by wing chuners.

Oh my! I didn't expect such an aggressive answer!

1) Most of the time, people don't even discuss it except against strawmen.

2) Not all do to the same degree. Some prefer to tire their opponent before going for the KO/kill. Some prefer to go slow but steady; grappling arts often do, because they prefer to establish their mastery on the situation before going in a lock (and you can't blame them, for it can backfire quite easily).

3) Did I say they were easy to get; that's exactly why I train in speed and precision more than brute strength and endurance.

4) Time spent getting hit in the head in heavy contact sparring is time not spent training speed and precision. Different approaches to fighting; I didn't say your focus was useless, don't assume mine is.

5) English is not my primary language. Perhaps you want to continue this conversation in French so I can discredit your arguments on that basis?

6) It's all about relative training. AT EQUAL SKILLS AND TRAINING TIME, a NHB fighter (or someone that trains in order to fight in competitions) will train more endurance and less precision. Of course they'll train precision too, but a Wing Chun, White Crane or other Self-defence TMA artist will be better in precision because he'll have trained more of it.

7) What part of it is delusional, the better fighter part or the dropping a MMA fighter (by MMA fighter, I mean a fighter that has trained in order to fight in Mixed Martial Arts competitions) part? I'll address both. Of course; those vital points are hard to hit; but while you are getting hit 10 times in the head repetitively, I'm training to stike your nuts, throat, ribs, temples and thighs. No matter how many times you train to resist full power roundhouses to the head, if I manage to land a single spear-hand trust to your throat, it's over. And guess what, that's what we train at! Maybe the competition Martial Artist would manage to evade such hits, to strike back. In that case, it's simply skill, not the martial art getting in the way. In the ring, though, the lack of lethal / debilitating strikes is clearly getting in the way of the artist that have trained these more extensively. Of course, they can be transformed into non-lethal strikes, but they won't shorten the fight.

For the better fighter part; isn't the better fighter the one able to beat his opponent in a fair fight, no matter how vicious the strikes or if grapples are permitted and so on?

So that's what I'm talking about; I'm not saying Wing Chun/White Crane/CMAs and other TMAs would rock everyone if they were permitted to use deadly strikes! I only mean to say that their not being as good for NHB does not mean that they are any less effective for self defense.

Edit: And about sparring. My school trains light contact only, but I still train harder with my kyokushin karate friends. Maybe women self-defense classes school are also rubbish for self-defense because they don't all bash each other's skull with their keychains!

WingChun Lawyer

18-Nov-2005, 04:08 PM

Gizzy, all your aguments have been discussed before on this very thread. Suffice to say this:

Deadly techniques do not prevent hard sparring, and do not substitute hard sparring.

Without hard sparring you can´t fight. Go play videogames, it is better training.

Pressure points strikes and such are close to impossible to use against a skilled, fully resisting opponent, even though they may work very well. So they are mostly finishing moves. And guess what? To be able to use a finishing move, you must be able to fight. Back to sparring.

All STRIKING arts include training to end a fight ASAP.

SO the point is not the art, it is the training method. You suck not because you do White Crane instead of Muay Thai or Kickboxing: you suck because you do not spar hard and regularly, and therefore if you went all out against someone who does you would not be able to attack or defend as well as him. In fact, you would probably panic when you got hit in the nose the first time.

Got it?

Incidentally, my first language is portuguese.

Edite: since you mentioned Kyokushin friends, quit that light sparring rubbish and go do Kyokushin NOW. Stop wasting your time, KK is an excellent striking art. And yes, I would say a women´s self defense course is useless without hard contact sparring against males, excepting, of course, situational awareness and such.

EternalRage

18-Nov-2005, 04:19 PM

I beg to differ. They don’t have just as much self defence. Some of the core aspects of Wing Chun go against competition rules. Unlike some of the styles you listed (and I also to TSD) Wing Chun is built for self defence and has been adapted for modern life. Those styles may have self defence in them, but the whole system isn’t self defence orientated.

Look at the techniques in WC that make it so bred for self defense. The bil jee, the striking of vital areas, the knee smashing and joint smashing etc etc. Almost every system in martial arts does these things. The "deadly techniques" are not unique to WC by far. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "self defence" oriented. As far as I'm concerned if the martial art system isn't about competition (ie mainstream TKD) or about health (ie Tai Chi for health) then its for self defense. If you can explain how WC is more self defense like than other styles please elaborate. I honestly don't see how it is more self defense oriented other than the fact that they try to brainwash you with that stuff from day one.

I’m sorry but a system that focus on a certain area of fighting (kicking) wont have the upper hand in street fighting compard to a system that has a more broad striking focus.

Neither will a system like most WC, which doesn't incorporate any throws or grappling or any major long distance techniques (if an instructor decides to add it in as crosstraining). It's mainly focused on in fighting, so I don't see your point here because WC is just as narrow focused as most martial arts.

I feel you've miss read what i said. For a technique that can break someone’s leg in half, no i dont expect to be allowed to start training it full power, full resistance. Of course when you build more control you kick against resistance. Usually powerful kicks are not dont straight against the knee cap, but kicks against other parts of the leg (side/back of knee or thigh) are. Although we do use contact for knee kick it's just too dangerous to kick someone to the front of the knee full on.
Then you aren't training it live and with resistance. The point I'm trying to make is that no one does. Hence this "too deadly" excuse from WC is moot because they don't train their "too deadly" stuff for realz anyway.

Guizzy

18-Nov-2005, 04:24 PM

Wingchunlawyer, I've rarely read posts written with such a condescending attitude.

If you are going to dissagree, do so respectfully. Until then, I won't gratify you with an answer.

WingChun Lawyer

18-Nov-2005, 04:32 PM

Wingchunlawyer, I've rarely read posts written with such a condescending attitude.

If you are going to dissagree, do so respectfully. Until then, I won't gratify you with an answer.

How cute, now you are offended. Please note that, with or without the respect you believe you deserve, I have offered solid reasons to support my views on the need to spar hard: come back when you want do discuss martial arts.

But if you just want to be cuddled, the door is right over there.

Strafio

18-Nov-2005, 04:47 PM

Wingchunlawyer, I've rarely read posts written with such a condescending attitude.

If you are going to dissagree, do so respectfully. Until then, I won't gratify you with an answer.
Hehe. Perhaps you missed his signature? ;)

I think his real point is that it's one thing to practice "controlled". I was quite good at my WC drills, but once we started sparring and people started throwing things at me my technique would almost go out the window and I'd end up flinching (that is turning my head away from the fight and practically admitting defeat).

I'm a bit better now. I've develloped a basic guard which'll give me a basic defense against most types of attacks. I've learned the importance of stancework and I know which defenses I can pull off practically and which ones I can't.

WingChun Lawyer

18-Nov-2005, 04:50 PM

I did feel like pointing my signature to Mr. Gizzy, but god forbid I break the TOS.

Incidentally, yes, I also had to overcome the flinch instinct when I started sparring, and I also had to learn what it takes to REALLY defend against a fully commited strike. Light sparring just won´t do that.

Strafio

18-Nov-2005, 04:56 PM

WingChun Lawyer

18-Nov-2005, 05:06 PM

I'm still on "light" sparring. They won't let me (even if I wanted to) do "full contact" because I'd likely get injured. Although you can still get hurt in "light" sparring it's a rare-ish accident, and if the "hits" they landed on me in "light" were landed in "full contact" then I'd be very hurt indeed. :)

IMHO, light sparring leads to more serious injuries than hard sparring, because you are not ready for an eventual strong blow...

I took about three or four months to be introduced to the wonderful world of nosebleeds and black eyes, I also started with light sparring. Out of curiosity, how long have you been doing what, Strafio?

Topher

19-Nov-2005, 07:55 PM

Of course, some kinds of sparring are more suitable to certain goals than others, I agree with that. Still, ideally you should do all kinds necessary to develop all the skills you train in class. The problem then would be acquiring the necessary protective equipment, area of training, etc.

Exactly, the point i've been advocating. I totally see the need for all types of sparring and have never disagreed with that. How i train in Wing Chun (which itself improves as i improve) suites for my needs on the street (from my experience). I do however see the need for more sprawling type sparring which is why i do eventually plan to branch out into other systems that have this focus.

Regardless of the type of sparring, i dont see why a competition is worth it (other than for a bit of fun) when the same can be done in class. IMO Wing Chun just isn’t suited for competitions without major changes in techniques and delivery. If i did a style more suited for competition then i would probably do some.

Topher

19-Nov-2005, 09:04 PM

Look at the techniques in WC that make it so bred for self defense. The bil jee, the striking of vital areas, the knee smashing and joint smashing etc etc. Almost every system in martial arts does these things. The "deadly techniques" are not unique to WC by far. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "self defence" oriented. As far as I'm concerned if the martial art system isn't about competition (ie mainstream TKD) or about health (ie Tai Chi for health) then its for self defense. If you can explain how WC is more self defense like than other styles please elaborate. I honestly don't see how it is more self defense oriented other than the fact that they try to brainwash you with that stuff from day one.

OK, what "deadly" techniques does your training employ, and how much focus you have on them.

Well we routinely train against real street techniques such as hard hooks, straights, uppercuts, grabs, pulls etc. Our main weapons are palm strikes, punches, elbows, knees, low kicks, chops etc. When training, especially as you improve you use full power (except when aiming the throat/head without padding). At first you go easy to understand the technique etc, then speed and strength comes naturally. This is important because i've seen beginners try to do things fast and hard when they start and it's just a mess and no coordination. I've been hit in the jaw and face quite a few times because my block didn't quite work, so i keep training it until it was second nature. Here no doubt out training isn’t hard.

We are always showed different ways to do things and encouraged to adapt that we do according to our size/height etc. In many styles, there is a strict way as to what should be done. In WC because its principle based we learn principles and apply them according to our needs. It’s very flexible.

Unlike other arts we don’t train our self defence in a ridged stance etc or use unorthodox striking methods which a lot of styles do. We don’t have "imaginary fight" formations etc. Everything we do has a place in self defence. Add to the fact we train for many situations, in a headlock, tackles, against a wall, multiple attackers etc.

Neither will a system like most WC, which doesn't incorporate any throws or grappling or any major long distance techniques (if an instructor decides to add it in as crosstraining). It's mainly focused on in fighting, so I don't see your point here because WC is just as narrow focused as most martial arts.

Well we do include takedowns, quite a lot of them. Later we do grappling (i believe in advance classes and through separate seminars)

Anyway the point i was making was most street situations occur at close quarters/ touching range which is the primary range in Wing Chun. As for long range, we do cover bridging - what happens before contact is made.

In my eyes if someone is in a long distance range then i consider myself relative safe. Only when they close the gap is when i start to really act, which is the range i focus on.

Then you aren't training it live and with resistance. The point I'm trying to make is that no one does. Hence this "too deadly" excuse from WC is moot because they don't train their "too deadly" stuff for realz anyway.
You judging my whole training based on one technique? Maybe you know my training better than me :rolleyes:

Threes no saying we don’t train hard but when it comes to dangerous techniques such as elbow/knee breaks or throat strikes you have to alter the power employed. I’ve hit people in the throat somewhat softly and stopped those dead on. Many people here have also been hit accidentally in the throat. There is no doubt they work so would adding full contact to it change that, other than up the risk.

Same with knee kicks, we train them hard, but when hitting the front of the knee you can’t use the same power as you would say the thigh or back/side of the knee. Control is even more important here. The manner in which we train them shows they can be used in defence. When training, low power is focusing on control/technique, medium power can drop them to the floor, full power would break the leg. With that, do you think you should do dangerous techniques will full power?

As for competitions, even attempting a stamp kick or throat strike will result in disqualification.

splodge

19-Nov-2005, 11:27 PM

You don't need to practice a throat strike by striking your sparring partner full force in the throat to learn the technique. You can learn by doing it POC then by striking the pad then by striking his catching hand by the throat.

The point is we are developing the technqiues and in a fight you are delivering them which would not be allowed in competition fighting. The parachute regiment doesnt practice killing terrorists by shooting their colleagues, they make it as close as possible whilst remaining as safe as possible.

You cannot put wing chun in a competition with the standard restrictions and still perform wing chun, the two dont mix no matter how much wingchunlawyer and eternal rage disagree just like you cannot put a bjj fighter in a boxing match and see bjj!

EternalRage

20-Nov-2005, 06:07 AM

Well my discussion with Homer's coming to a close I guess. He says his WC training is specifically geared for self defense. From all the Wing Chun I've seen, I don't see how it is any differently oriented than any other martial art, in theory or practice. Homer's might be different, so until I can actually watch what his training's like I guess we've said our points on the practice of "deadly techniques."

As for you splodge, I don't see how a striking art can't be modified in some way to do well in a rule set environment. Considering that your sparring that you do in class is bound to have rules to protect either yourself or your partner, I guess then by your rationale, wing chun can't be done in normal sparring either since there are "standard restrictions" in sparring too.

And this here is a rather ridiculous point:
You cannot put wing chun in a competition with the standard restrictions and still perform wing chun, the two dont mix no matter how much wingchunlawyer and eternal rage disagree just like you cannot put a bjj fighter in a boxing match and see bjj!
Boxing and BJJ train two different ranges. One is ground, another is grappling. We're talking about WC, a standup striking art, in standup striking art tournaments.

You don't need to practice a throat strike by striking your sparring partner full force in the throat to learn the technique. You can learn by doing it POC then by striking the pad then by striking his catching hand by the throat.
If you have this amount of control in sparring your partner - working your techniques without hitting him, then surely you could easily stop your technique in a tournament or perhaps choose different techniques over your "deadly techniques" as well. You might say "well choosing those different techniques is against the essence of wing chun, and will teach me to choose legal techniques over fight stoppers." Well doing those "deadly techniques" with control in sparring doesn't teach you how to do them for real - least with the legal ones you can go nuts with and truly feel what it's like to strike someone - but then you get back to my discussions with Homer, which if you want just scan the last several pages...

Topher

20-Nov-2005, 10:16 PM

As for you splodge, I don't see how a striking art can't be modified in some way to do well in a rule set environment. Considering that your sparring that you do in class is bound to have rules to protect either yourself or your partner, I guess then by your rationale, wing chun can't be done in normal sparring either since there are "standard restrictions" in sparring too.

No one is saying that you technically can’t adapt Wing Chun for competitions, but in doing so you will be removing a large part of what Wing Chun is. Hence Wing Chun would more likely loose. Secondly most people who do Wing Chun are not interested in competitions so there is no need. If they are interested they would also train in a style more suited for tournaments. Therefore there is no real need to train or adapt for other styles of fighting.

I don’t think you will ever see a WC vs. WC competition so the only time you’ll see WC in competition is when an individual enters. If the competition is open to all styles then for Wing Chun to be represented well it would need its full arsenal of techniques - which it won’t have. You also have the problem that when we train it’s not points or time limits. It’s over when you can judge to safely leave the situation. This could be after 5 seconds. So for competition not only will you have to change your techniques but your whole delivery approach.

Look at early UFC, before all the rules came into it some fights didn’t even go 1 minuet or 30 seconds or less, and that’s with two train fighters. Nowadays I rarely see quick fights in MMA competitions. If they can end the fight quickly, why don’t they?

As for “standard restrictions” in sparring. I agree there are, according to the style. Our standard restrictions are different to other styles; hence our standard sparring is also different. This is my point; our standard sparring isn’t suitable for tournaments. Add to the fact that our sparring is aimed for self defence and therefore trained and varied appropriately.

Boxing and BJJ train two different ranges. One is ground, another is grappling. We're talking about WC, a standup striking art, in standup striking art tournaments.

Well then put a Muay That guy in a Boxing match, boxing rules and you wont see MT. As good as your punches might be, that’s all you would have. No kicks, elbows, knees….

Bjoern_VT

21-Nov-2005, 04:13 AM

is it allowed in UFC to hit against the back of the head/neck when the grappler comes forward and ducks down to grapple? if so, why does nobody try, and all the stand up fighters rather throw straight or round house punches into clean air?

my personal opinion about Ving Tsun at UFC is, if you cannot fight in a ring, something would be wrong with your style... Ving Tsun did farely well, in teh HK full contact Kung Fu tournaments... (won't know about nowadays though)
but if you wnat to go to the ring, you have to train accordingly.... that means intensive power and cardio workout, time inteinsive sparring and so on... then do sparring against the guys you will fight in the ring until you figured HOW to survive , then beat them easy in't it????

;)

but if you take away the few chances of preventing grappling by ruling them out, there is no way that a stand up fighter could survive in such a ring, excepot with lucky punches....
I met severeal wrestlers in free sparring, and none managed to put me down when I stil was young and fit and in training fo sprring.. nowadays a sleeping judoka will take me down ;)... but if you punch hard and from correct distance you CAN prevent yourself from being tackled..... but if you may not hit them on te exposed parts fo their body once they go down.. what can you do??

Hoimun

21-Nov-2005, 04:33 PM

"I don't think it applies to the thread over in the kung fu section about kung fu in MMA tournaments. This guy is talking about point sparring and "1 hit and quit" sparring, and forms competitions. We are discussing the use of kung fu in NHB competitions like UFC or pride, where many of his valid points are moot."

Reguardless of that, it is in refferrence to general topics about Wing Chun. Yes there are rules in an tournament or compettition... otherwise it is considered a street fight. I do not know what you know, though I do know there is a difference between a competition with refree & judges etc., & a street fight. On top of that, there are also competitions with refrees outside of TV shows you can watch on Paperview or whatever shows on TV, cable, or satellite. If you are speaking of a smaller martial arts tournament or competition in your community... yet I was under the preminition you were reffering to N.H.B. which specifically means any compettition where a hold is not barred.

"No one else on this thread (WSL aside) put down wing chun, or disrespected it, or even compared it to wing chun. I think it's funny that half of the wing chun community is defending their style against imaginary attackers.

Hoimun, instead of being confident in your style and abilities, you obviously doubt both. Otherwise, you would not feel it necessary to randomly defend your style against an attack that wasn't even there. The only thing I said was, that the article did not apply to a SPECIFIC thread in the kung fu section because the author of the article was commenting on point-sparring and forms competitions."

That is once again irrellevant point because, whether he was talking about practice, or real fighting, or competetive sport. A wing Chun fighter will do Wing Chun kuen. That is what it is.

UFC, is the only place where you will see MMA doing (supposedly NHB) competetive tournament fighting on TV. That statement is based on what I was told about TV MMA fighting.

My point is, not taking from Sifu Robert Anthony's article about Wing Chun & how we fight & train etc., WHY CANT WE COMPETE?!?! Is it because we are not mixed martial artists?? Or is it because we do not want to compete on a TV show, or in someplace where the media is designating?

splodge

21-Nov-2005, 06:32 PM

As for you splodge, I don't see how a striking art can't be modified in some way to do well in a rule set environment.
Finally you have grasped the point!!!! You can see modified wing chun in a competition but you cannot see wing chun.

Considering that your sparring that you do in class is bound to have rules to protect either yourself or your partner, I guess then by your rationale, wing chun can't be done in normal sparring either since there are "standard restrictions" in sparring too.
Sparring is not fighting, I think that has been established by now.

And this here is a rather ridiculous point:
Boxing and BJJ train two different ranges. One is ground, another is grappling. We're talking about WC, a standup striking art, in standup striking art tournaments.

It is not the ranges that would make the difference it is the techniques allowed and the core restrictions that it would place on the style developed by the bjj fighter in a boxing match.

If you have this amount of control in sparring your partner - working your techniques without hitting him, then surely you could easily stop your technique in a tournament
I can control my strikes and could stop my technique prior to landing in a tournament, but it is the technique that is not allowed so I wouldn't need to stop before hitting as I would not be able to execute the technique initially.

or perhaps choose different techniques over your "deadly techniques" as well. You might say "well choosing those different techniques is against the essence of wing chun, and will teach me to choose legal techniques over fight stoppers." Well doing those "deadly techniques" with control in sparring doesn't teach you how to do them for real - least with the legal ones you can go nuts with and truly feel what it's like to strike someone - but then you get back to my discussions with Homer, which if you want just scan the last several pages...
If we choose a different technique than the one we would use then you are not seeing wing chun at best you are seeing MMA but definetly not wing chun. Of course practicing techniques learns you how to do them for real, that is how training works, you think that everytime a grappler goes to training he breaks a bone on his partner for each technique he practices??? Even a boxer practices on pads, are you saying that he is wasting his time and should instead be fighting all the time? We all need to practice this "fake" way in order to develop our techniques.

As I have pointed out before, I have also boxed for over 12 years and have used both what I have learned in the boxing gym as well as what I have learned (yes, learned for real too!) being a student of Wing Chun in street fights and you know what, they both work! I agree that hard sparring prepares you better for that fight or flight moment on the street when your throat drops in your stomach for a split second but that is not what this thread is about.