Old keris Vs modern keris

[Narrue]

I have noticed that old keris blades are sharper then modern keris made with modern steel. They also hold an edge far longer then modern steel keris. I have also noticed that they are less prone to rusting then modern blades. An example is I have a very old keris blade which shows no sign of rust but my new keris blade which is perhaps 15 years old has very small spots of rust forming already.
My old keris is very light and razor sharp, I have never sharpened it with no signs of rust but my modern keris is heavy blunt and as I said has signs of rust. I know which one I prefer but why can’t a modern keris worker produce something better then the old keris workers considering the advancements in technology?
I have noticed also that modern keris are silver in colour first and then dyed black to bring up the pamor whilst old keris used a dark Iron which contrasted with the pamor. The thing is that if you sharpen a dyed keris the dye will rub off revealing the silver metal underneath and you will need to dye it again. As far as I know old keris had black Iron so even if you sharpen it the keris will still be black at the edge because it was the Iron it was made from which was black not a coating of black dye. I have to say I don’t like these modern dyed blades.
Have you also noticed how old keris have a slightly rough grainy (open pore) Iron which soaks up the keris oil when you apply it whilst modern keris have a smooth tight surface, if you apply oil it just sits on the surface and dose not seam to penetrate the blade.

I would be very grateful if some of you with knowledge of keris could inform me of the source of this old material from which the blades were made as I feel it is far superior to modern steel keris. Also which empu still use the old traditional methods and materials for making keris blades because if I was going to have a blade made I would not want it made from modern steel using modern methods.

[CQC]

If I'm not mistaken, old keris was made of iron taken from seven objects
( I only remember 2 of them, the knife and the umbrella-each iron taken from all of the objects have their meaning) and it was done through traditional process.

I hope anyone can come to explaim the traditional process on the making of the keris.

[Narrue]

I remember hearing something similar which stated that Iron was taken from seven sacred places over seven days. I don’t remember hearing that it was taken form seven objects but from seven places. I also remember hearing that the water the empu uses when preparing the keris should be taken from seven different streams and mixed together so it has the right properties. Not sure though if these tales are meant to be taken literally or if it has an inner meaning.

[CQC]

By the way, what material did people use to make a modern keris blade that you mentioned about?

[dark-angle]

By the way, what material did people use to make a modern keris blade that you mentioned about?

I think new keris are made from modern steel straight from the factory and pure nickel to make the pamor. Some keris makers will then use tricks to artificially age the blade so it looks old. If you look on eBay Im sure 90% of those keris are new blades made to look old so they can sell for higher prices. The photo below shows a typical modern keris before and after it has been dyed black. The keris looks like it is made from modern steel and I think most new blades are made like this.

[ICT]

Narrue,

The old Keris's were manufactured from different metals, the most prized being made from metorites. They were hand made and forged by a true Pande. The different metals were heated, folded together and pounded into shape and this took a while as you can imagine but it made the metal more durable.

Most new Keris's are not hand made, or are not made by a Pande and are made out of cheap metals poured into a mold then made to look old and traditional.

It's like everything else in this world, It's just hard to buy good quality these days when they can make something cheap look expensive!

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

[rizal]

probably the modern keris you have, Narrue, are modern 'gift shop' keris. It was meant to be a decoration in the first place and to cut cost, the maker didn't make 'true' pamor. Instead that just 'paint' it on.
old keris was made more deliberate. Since it is a weapon, most were made with hard edge but with soft core, so they can retain their hardness yet not prone to breaking. Also since it is also a thing of art, the pamor were made directly on the blade.
(I wonder if ancient era Asians steelsmiths once held a convention. the techniques is too similar with other area in Asia.)
this problem is not new though and not only affect Keris. I think we have the same problem with Japanese swords (e.g. Katana) and European ones.
question though. I heard that many good Kerises are made from meteorite. How about good iron ore? Like the iron ores from Spain (Toledo steel?) which has high content of manganese?

[Narrue]

Ok I was talking to someone about this and I now know what the problem is. Old keris are made with Iron with or without pamor but new keris are made from steel with or without pamor. The difference between Iron and steel is that steel has carbon added which strengthens the blade however it also increases the rate of rusting. Steel will rust much faster then Iron. The rate at which a material will rust will also affect the ability of the blade to keep an edge.
An example of this is when you shave you will notice that the razor blade gets blunt after about 2 or 3 shaves. It’s not your stubble which has caused the blade to get blunt but it’s the oxidisation (rusting) at the blade edge which causes it to become blunt and brittle, this is the major factor which causes razors to become blunt.
As I said before Iron rusts slower then steel so an Iron blade will keep its edge longer then a steel blade. The down side of this is that Iron is brittle and prone to fracturing whilst steel is not. If you were to put an old keris blade in a vice and apply pressure across the blade face it will simply snap because its made from Iron. If however you did the same to a modern keris blade it would flex and bend more before breaking because it’s made fro steel.
The fact that keris blades were regularly oiled obviously would also protect it from rusting and thus help to keep the blade sharp.
Its only now that I realise that rate of rusting is the major factor in the ability of a blade to keep its edge that I realise why old keris tend to be sharper then steel keris.
The modern solution to this would be to make the blade from rust resistant steel so you would get the best of both worlds, the flexibility and strength of steel but a better blade edge then an Iron (old) keris.

[Kiai Carita]

Narrue,

The old Keris's were manufactured from different metals, the most prized being made from metorites. They were hand made and forged by a true Pande. The different metals were heated, folded together and pounded into shape and this took a while as you can imagine but it made the metal more durable.

Most new Keris's are not hand made, or are not made by a Pande and are made out of cheap metals poured into a mold then made to look old and traditional.

It's like everything else in this world, It's just hard to buy good quality these days when they can make something cheap look expensive!

Sincerely,
Teacher: Eddie Ivester

The new keris are still mostly handmade and you can still get new well made keris on the market. However the art of making keris using the whole traditional process of fasting and day counting is dying out. Maybe now it is only done by some pande in Bali and Mpu Djeno's workshop in Yogyakarta. In Indonesia a good new keris costs more than an average old keris so many people do not try to make their keris look old if it is a beauty to begin with.

Many decorative tourist keris are handmade as well, but the keris makers cut corners in the process and use inferior metals. There is one village in the island of Madura ( a ferry ride from Surabaya in East Jawa) called Aeng Tong Tong which has been producing keris since before Majapahit until now with only a short gap between the Pacific war and the 1970's when the tourist market created the demand for new keris. The most modernizing they have done is to use bank credit, electric bellows and industrial iron, nickel and steel. They make very good new keris as well.

As for the use of meteorite, according to tradition not the whole blade is from meteorite, rather meteorite (if obtainable alot if not a smidgin can suffice) is used only for the pamor material. It has a symbolic meaning of uniting the iron from the heavens with the iron of the earth. Up till the WWII meteorite was sold in the market in Solo, Jawa, and cost more than gold.

Warm Salaams to all,
KC

[Narrue]

"I do not know any empu who still make keris. In modern time in Jawa was Empu Suparman(alm), Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo, Empu Djeno Harumbrojo. Empu Suparman pass away in 1995, Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo retire already some years, Empu Djeno Harumbrojo many people say can no longer work. There is story about somebody from Madura who become empu for Kraton Surakarta. Perhaps this only a story and not real. Some modern makers of keris from Madura and Jawa Timur make very, very good keris, but really these people are not empu." Marto Suwingnyo

None of the above would be considered as true empu if you think in the mystical sence because none of them have any spiritual/mystical powers so the real empu in that sense is already gone. The word empu has a different meaning today, it just means someone who knows correct pakem and uses traditional materials/methods.

[rizal]

actually thankfully there is a few genuine empu left.
A friend of mine was related with the Hamengkubuwono family and he said that at least the Hamengkubuwonos and the Paku Alams has a few accredited empus (Royal Swordmaker??? -- but even a few is stretching the meaning of it) in their retainer. So we hoped that the ancient tradition and making of Javanese kerises will not perished, unlike Japanese Katanas and other indonesian blades.

[nechesh]

Well this is a very interesting discussion you all are having here. I am glad to see that Narrue has heard the cries of foul eminating from the direction of the Ethnographic Edged Weapons Forum and decided it was best to name the source of at least one of his quotes from Marto Suwingnyo, a distinguished member there. But then Narrue follows this quote with a completely unsubstantiated paragraph:
None of the above would be considered as true empu if you think in the mystical sence because none of them have any spiritual/mystical powers so the real empu in that sense is already gone. The word empu has a different meaning today, it just means someone who knows correct pakem and uses traditional materials/methods.
Tell me Narrue, what do you base this misguided assumption of yours on? Do you have any real knowledge of Empu Suparman, Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo, or Empu Djeno Harumbrojo or are you just copying these words from some other forum. :rolleyes: You have, in fact, shown great disrespect for these men of whom you obviously know nothing.
It seems Dark-Angle is also in the habit of lifting things from other forums without the knowledge or permission of the original posters. For your edification gentlemen, the keris you have posted Mr. Angle, while not ancient, was certainly not forged yesterday. While the exact date is quite difficult to pinpoint on any keris, this Balinese keris could have been made anywhere between, say, 1880 and the early 20th century so it is probably at least 100 yrs. old. Now, by keris standards, which date back to the 14th century or more in origin, one might consider this one relatively modern, but i assure you it IS an antique. This one does not use "pure" nickel as pamor material and it is NOT "dyed" black. Keris traditionally are periodically washed in mild fruit acids to cleanse them and treated with an arsenic/lime juice solution called warangka. This solution chemically reacts with the iron turning it various shades of black dependent on the grade and purity of the iron used. It has little to no effect on nickel so this raises the pamor to show contrast and revel the pattern used. These varied patterns have great significance in Indonesian culture. This process has been a part of the culture of the keris for many centuries. So, just to be clear, ALL keris where the iron is black have gotten that way through this process. That includes your keris as well Narrue.
Rizal, it is indeed sad that the time of the empu is passing quickly. There are probably only 2 or 3 working empus left if that. Empu Djeno is very old and now only supervises the work of his apprentices at best. There are, however, many very skilled smiths that create keris today. Many different levels of quality are being made today just as it has always been. Some of the new keris i have seen are as fine a master work as anything the empus of the past have created. I have seen pamor patterns that i don't believe any of the empus of old could have created. And then some are just tourist junk. Many grade levels can be found in between.
The keris and it's place in Indonesian culture has changed greatly over the years.The majority of Indonesians today have little interest in this aspect of their cultural heritage. So the keris has moved from being a powerful and magickal cultural icon that was also a work of great skill and art to being merely a work of great skill and art. I have faith that this aspect of the keris will indeed survive, but the ancient way, the one that involved fasting, prayer, offerings and magickal incantation, where the blade being forged was only struck at auspicious times and a spirit could be brought to being to exist in the blade.....those times are gone.

[Narrue]

Well this is a very interesting discussion you all are having here. I am glad to see that Narrue has heard the cries of foul eminating from the direction of the Ethnographic Edged Weapons Forum and decided it was best to name the source of at least one of his quotes from Marto Suwingnyo, a distinguished member there

Actually it’s the only quote I used from that forum as you can see, one quote is hardly masses of information is it. "cries of foul" Actually the only person who seams to be crying about it is you :rolleyes:

the ancient way, the one that involved fasting, prayer, offerings and magickal incantation, where the blade being forged was only struck at auspicious times and a spirit could be brought to being to exist in the blade.....those times are gone.

Thank you for agreeing with what I said about empus no longer having mystical powers ;)


While the exact date is quite difficult to pinpoint on any keris, this Balinese keris could have been made anywhere between, say, 1880 and the early 20th century so it is probably at least 100 yrs. old.

As I said 100 years old is hardly ancient, the house I live in is probably older and also my garden gate is about the same age. My nan is almost as old as that keris. In my opinion 100 years in not ancient, I would call it modern but I guess it depends on the individual and what country you come from i.e. a new country where there is not much history might think 100 years is old but its nothing.

[Crucible]

Hello Nechesh,
and welcome to the forum! I hope you stay longer than just this one incident.

Kiai,
*tips hat in general direction towards Kiai* good job in catching this and the respectfull manner in which you called attention to it.


Narrue,
Actually at least two people called foul. If the moderators weren't so on the ball in closeing the thread to prevent a flame war you would've seen many more cries.

The piont is not how people called foul, its that you lifted someone else's words without asking or permission and still later without apology.

[nechesh]

Narrue, belief me when i say there are far more people offended by your actions than just myself. If you choose to disregard this it can only work in your disfavor. There are some who still feel an apology is in order, though perhaps that should be directed to Marto since it was his words you were passing off as your own. You are right, one quote is hardly masses of information. It is just one little lie. :rolleyes:
No Narrue, i am not agreeing with you when i state that "those times are gone". You made a claim against the credibilty of three renowned empus, Empu Suparman, Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo, and Empu Djeno Harumbrojo. Did you even know these names 3 days ago? But still you used Marto's quote as your own to somehow try to support that these men were not true empus, to make yourself look smarter because it would appear you knew some names so you must know what you are talking about?! As has been stated, these three empus are either dead or no longer working. That is why i wrote "those times are gone".
I made it quite clear that the Balinese keris that is shown is not ancient, but neither is it new. It was forged in the old manner by a gifted hands. It is a beautiful example of late 19thC Balinese work. It is NOT dyed, but treated in the traditional manner used for centuried by Indonesians to raise the pamor in their keris. This is a technique which is done periodically to keris within the cultural context of old Indonesian society. If you are at all interested in these facts i can recommend a few books and websites where you can go to learn more about this. But if you wish to remain ignorant of these facts and believe that all modern keris are "dyed", while old keris have naturally black iron then i can not help you. As i've stated, more informed people than i such as Kiai and Marto have offered you valuable information that you seem to absorb and then disregard when drawing your conclusions. Believe what you will. The problem is that when you make these questionable conclusions to the internet at large there is the danger that interested parties with little knowledge will take you at your word. There is already far too much disinformation floating about in regards to the keris. If you choose to spread more i must debate you.

[CQC]

Kiai, could you explain to me on how the keris were made in Indonesia. Are there any differences in the way of making a keris between Malaysia and Indonesia?

[Kiai Carita]

None of the above would be considered as true empu if you think in the mystical sence because none of them have any spiritual/mystical powers so the real empu in that sense is already gone. The word empu has a different meaning today, it just means someone who knows correct pakem and uses traditional materials/methods.

Peace to all reading this,

Actually, the kratons and society honoured these people (Pak Jeno, Pak Pauzan, Pak Parman swargi) with the titles Mpu precisely because they lived the lives worthy of the tittle. The tittle Mpu has always meant more or less the same in Jawa, meaning someone who owns, someone who has it, it here is of course the wisdom, clarity, and constant rememberance of God. I think not enough Mpu tittles are being given out nowadays in the Indonesian keris scene although in art and literature the titles are often used espescialy if the beloved genius has passed away.

Knowing the correct pakem of keris is a huge task you know. The pakem is the classic rules and believe me in Jawa there are many classis rules in the making, cleaning, wearing, keeping, trading and inhereting keris.

Studying Jawa art and keris stories for a life time I can tell you with confidence that the technique to make powerful keris is a technique of prayer and meditation that makes possible the person's consiousness to be always in awareness of God, in such a way that the smith is not there and there is only God. Often according to tradition God made a beautiful keris emerge from nowhere for a smith or warior in need. I have often said this before but the essence of all traditional Jawa arts including silat and keris making and gamelan playing, is surrender to God.

Again if you want more detailed and technical discussion of the keris I would suggest you go to the vikingsword ethnographic forum and read through past posts there. It is a mature forum with many knowledgable members. Please quote when cut-pasting from there. I believe that this forum is more for martial arts discussion espescially silat.

Warm Salaams to all,
KC

[Kiai Carita]

I made it quite clear that the Balinese keris that is shown is not ancient, but neither is it new. It was forged in the old manner by a gifted hands. It is a beautiful example of late 19thC Balinese work.

Welcome to the forum Nechesh, and yes Narrue a.k.a Pusaka, and also Dark Angle, please remember to give credit where it is due.

Actually Nechesh this keris could have come from as early as the early 18th century, in the 1700s don't you think? Between 1700 to 1900 would I woud guess.

Warm salaams to all,
KC

[nechesh]

Hi KC.Yes, this keris could be as old as that. I tend to lean on the conservative side when trying to place approximate dates on keris. There also hasn't been much actual research into a dating system for balinese keris as there has for those from Jawa. Looking at Mick's keris i took into account the fine condition as well. Still, you can see examples of keris in museums that were collected in the 17th century that look practically new since they have been cared for and recieved no further acid washing to wear down their surfaces. Since i know Mick got this keris w/o a sheath (leading me to believe it wasn't being maintained) i wouldn't think it is older than mid 19thC. But by form alone it could certainly be older.

[Narrue]

No Narrue, i am not agreeing with you when i state that "those times are gone". You made a claim against the credibilty of three renowned empus, Empu Suparman, Empu Pauzan Pusposukadgo, and Empu Djeno Harumbrojo. Did you even know these names 3 days ago?

Lets get this straight I am not saying that those Empu do not have high skill in making keris and knowledge of keris, what I am saying is that I personally don’t believe they have mystical powers. But it seams that you do believe they have mystical powers :rolleyes: I want to make it clear that I do believe that some people do have what we may call mystical powers, but these men??
Did I hear of their names before :rolleyes: Hahaha Nechesh they are famous and yes I heard about them years ago.
Just because you fast or pray before making a keris dose not mean that you have mystical powers because we can all fast and pray if we want but it doesn’t mean that we all have such powers. I think however that some of the ancient empus did have such abilities.
There are several Indonesians who would not think much of a modern blade which looks beautiful however those same people think a lot of an ancient blade made by an ancient empu even if the blade no longer looks the best and the reason for this is that they believe that keris made in ancient times sometimes have power. But modern blades, No.

[tellner]

Mmm, way I see it only the Most High has mystical powers. Sometimes He gives people the ability to do things for His own purposes. It's a mistake (shirk) to believe that you are providing the juice.

[Narrue]

Mmm, way I see it only the Most High has mystical powers. Sometimes He gives people the ability to do things for His own purposes. It's a mistake (shirk) to believe that you are providing the juice.

I agree with you that all things including such abilities ultimately come from the creator. But he dose not give it to all men, Certainly not all Empu and keris workers. Others may believe that all empu and keris workers do but I dont.

[tellner]

True enough. What means do you have of determining who has or doesn't have the Real Mojo(tm)? Are you a tzaddik? A wali? A sorceror? A shaman? Why should we accept your judgement on who has or hasn't been specially graced? Put it another way. If I take a selection of modern and ancient blades that have been made in exactly the same fashion and can not be distinguished by visual or chemical tests (no fair using a gamma ray counter) how many people, Indonesian or European, could tell which ones have the baraka?

And does it really matter?

Most of us don't live lives that require us to deal with spirits or devils except in the most prosaic sense. If we need to kill people we can just shoot them. If we need to find water we can get it with civil engineering. Do a kris' putative magical powers really have an impact? If we can't detect spiritual qualities in the metal what difference does it make to us? What's wrong with judging them as important cultural artifacts embodying craft and art?

[Narrue]

True enough. What means do you have of determining who has or doesn't have the Real Mojo(tm)? Are you a tzaddik? A wali? A sorceror? A shaman? Why should we accept your judgement on who has or hasn't been specially graced? Put it another way. If I take a selection of modern and ancient blades that have been made in exactly the same fashion and can not be distinguished by visual or chemical tests (no fair using a gamma ray counter) how many people, Indonesian or European, could tell which ones have the baraka?

And does it really matter?

Most of us don't live lives that require us to deal with spirits or devils except in the most prosaic sense. If we need to kill people we can just shoot them. If we need to find water we can get it with civil engineering. Do a kris' putative magical powers really have an impact? If we can't detect spiritual qualities in the metal what difference does it make to us? What's wrong with judging them as important cultural artifacts embodying craft and art?

Let me ask you a question, do you seriously believe that all keris workers have such abilities?? I have to say I think only a simple person would believe that. I don’t need to be a mystic to tell you that, just like I don’t need to be a weapons expert to tell you if you get shot it will hurt, its common sense my friend.

In modern times do we need such things? No I would say no. Is it important? Hmm I guess that depends. Can I accept a keris as just being a beautiful hand crafted blade? Sure.

[Kiai Carita]

Lets get this straight I am not saying that those Empu do not have high skill in making keris and knowledge of keris, what I am saying is that I personally don’t believe they have mystical powers. But it seams that you do believe they have mystical powers :rolleyes: I want to make it clear that I do believe that some people do have what we may call mystical powers, but these men??
Did I hear of their names before :rolleyes: Hahaha Nechesh they are famous and yes I heard about them years ago.
Just because you fast or pray before making a keris dose not mean that you have mystical powers because we can all fast and pray if we want but it doesn’t mean that we all have such powers. I think however that some of the ancient empus did have such abilities.
There are several Indonesians who would not think much of a modern blade which looks beautiful however those same people think a lot of an ancient blade made by an ancient empu even if the blade no longer looks the best and the reason for this is that they believe that keris made in ancient times sometimes have power. But modern blades, No.

Peace to all,

Narrue dear, I think you do not yet understand what the term Mpu means. A person is called Mpu because of his spiritual powers in whatever art he works in. When Mpu Djeno is called an Mpu, or Pa Pauzan is called an Mpu it is because the kraton and or the society recognizes that these people have something beyond the art and craft they are working in. If the kratons in Solo order keris from Pak Pauzan it means they acknowledge that he has more than just the technical skills of keris making.

I disagree that the fasting and praying is something just anyone can do. Try fasting and praying properly and you wil find that it is not easy-peasy. If you do fast and pray properly you will get spiritual powers. Powers for what, that is up to the All-Mighty. Modern Mpu can still make proper keris but they do not make them for just anyone. In the cyber-silat world I have seen contemporary modern keris and modern tombak being offered for sale as 'spirit keris' in a Californian silat school website. Now you would not want to say on this forum that Californian Pendekar X is a liar would you?

In kerisology the term modern blades usually refers to blades produced after palihan nagari - the splitting of the state, refering to the Giyanti treaty in the 18th century which divided Jawa into Solo and Yogya. The Solo Mpus after this treaty began to use the tungkakan in their keris, and because the Bali keris image used (without permission of the owner) in this thread has a tungkakan, I believe it could not be older than the 18th century. Were the modern Mpu's less powerfull? No, they were more powerfull, as their pusaka helped kick out the Dutch and the British and Stalin from Jawa. Always remember that a keris, like a jurus, is actually a prayer in the form of a blade (or movement in the case of jurus). God never lies and always gives to those who ask.

In kerisology, a keris maker is called a pande. If he or she has more than technical skills and people feel they are spiritually potent, they are called Mpu. Personally I would give the title Mpu to several Aeng Tong Tong pandes even if only because they have diligently preserved the ancient art. The best of Aeng Tong Tong can compare to the works of Supa, the sepuh or the anom! Ask Mans on the ethnographic blade forum to show you the works of Supa and modern Aeng Tong Tong. By the way Aeng means 'something new' and tong-tong is the sound of the hammer on the anvil. This village has consistently produced keris since at least 1400 till now.

Any Indonesian with cultural knowledge would rejoice at the fact that modern pande can still make proper keris. If an Indonesian thinks that modern Mpu cannot make potent keris he should talk to me and I will show him the light. Narrue, you need more Indonesian contacts, from your opinions I deduct that you must be talking to New Order Indonesians who eat to much Mc Donalds!

Enough here Narrue, I want to go to the vikingsword forum to see if you posted anything there. To all keris enthusiasts I suggest you go to the vikingsword forum and join the mature forumites there.

Warm salaams to all,
KC

[Narrue]

Put it another way. If I take a selection of modern and ancient blades that have been made in exactly the same fashion and can not be distinguished by visual or chemical tests (no fair using a gamma ray counter) how many people, Indonesian or European, could tell which ones have the baraka?

Very few I would guess but I could be wrong, some people may feel that "this blade feels different then the others" but not know why. Actually it would be very interesting if such a survey was ever conducted because we may be very surprised at the results.
I think a Geiger counter will only tell you that the blade has meteorite Iron in it, due to the small quantity of radioactive elements present in a meteorite.
I’ve never done it before but I bet if you put a Geiger counter near a common nickel keris there won’t be much of a high count but if you put it near a meteorite keris it will go wild. This dose not mean that the blade has special powers though. Put the counter near a lump of meteorite and I bet you get the same result.

[nechesh]

Narrue, have you ever put a geiger counter near a meteorite? What makes you think it would be radio-active? Your knowledge of science dear Narrue is beginning to rival your knowledge of the keris. :rolleyes: If it were that easy to detect meteoric pamor in keris it would have been done a long time ago. There is NO sure way to determine if there is meteorite in a keris unless you commissioned the keris yourself or you have very good provenance. This has been debated in great depth on the EEWF and if you would bother to search the old forum there you would find some very interesting scientific research that has been done. There are some very subtle characteristic that might point to the possibility of meteorite in a keris, but anyone who claims they can prove it is a fraud. Very few keris, relatively speaking, were actually made with meteorite BTW. There is, in fact, no evidence of a source of iron-nickel meteorite in Jawa before the Prambanan fall of the late 18thC. The remnants of that fall are enshrined in a Javanese kraton to this day and the material was only used on very special keris.
BTW, your quest for an all meteorite keris which you expressed on the EEWF only shows you lack of understanding of the mystical aspects of the blade. The idea, as i believe Kiai explained before, is that meteoric pamor from the above is united with iron from the below to form a magickal union of heaven and earth. Just to use meteoric ore would not create this sacred balance. Get it. Probably not, huh? :bang:

[tellner]

The bit about the gamma ray counter was to exclude that test for modern iron. Ever since the 1950s there have been enough radionuclides floating around the atmosphere to contaminate modern metals in ways that sensitive instruments can detect. That's why pre-WWII steel is worth interesting money in the right circles. It can be used to build housings for high-end radiation counters that won't contaminate the results.

[nechesh]

That's very interesting Tellner. Yes, we do live in a corrupted world. :eek:
Of course a meteorite could contain radioactive material as well, but it is not a given just because it is space metal. Regardless, a geiger counter still won't help you determine meteorite keris from earth pamored ones. :)

[tellner]

Let me ask you a question, do you seriously believe that all keris workers have such abilities?? I have to say I think only a simple person would believe that. I don’t need to be a mystic to tell you that, just like I don’t need to be a weapons expert to tell you if you get shot it will hurt, its common sense my friend.
Of course. But you can't tell the difference between the really magically juiced up ones. I can't. 999/1000ths of the best Indonesian keris afficionados probably can't, much less divine it about people who are dead. So the whole discussion is kind of bootless. It would be best to keep it to the things we can demonstrate.

I make Balur Silat from an old recipe. There's a single ingredient it doesn't include, dust from the grave of Kair. So far it works just as well as the other sort.

[nechesh]

Did I hear of their names before :rolleyes: Hahaha Nechesh they are famous and yes I heard about them years ago.


So let me get this straight. You don't seem to know some of the most rudimentary elements of kerisology. You think that warangan is some kind of "dye" and you don't seem to understand the very definition of the term Empu, yet you expect us to believe that you heard of these men years ago! Why don't you grow up and stop pretending you know everything. Only then can your true learning begin. :)

[Kiai Carita]

There is NO sure way to determine if there is meteorite in a keris unless you commissioned the keris yourself or you have very good provenance. This has been debated in great depth on the EEWF and if you would bother to search the old forum there you would find some very interesting scientific research that has been done. There are some very subtle characteristic that might point to the possibility of meteorite in a keris, but anyone who claims they can prove it is a fraud. Very few keris, relatively speaking, were actually made with meteorite BTW. There is, in fact, no evidence of a source of iron-nickel meteorite in Jawa before the Prambanan fall of the late 18thC. The remnants of that fall are enshrined in a Javanese kraton to this day and the material was only used on very special keris.

Peace to all,

Just to add to nechesh: According to Harsrinuksmo, some time in the mid 18th century two lumps of meteorite fell in the village of Prambanan between Solo and Yogya. The king of Solo PB III brought the smaller one to the Solo kraton in 1784. In 1797 the PB IV brought the larger peice, over a cubic meter to his kraton. Smaller peices were collected and traded by locals, and before WWII the price was twice the price of gold. The big piece can still be seen in the PB kraton in Solo, and it is named Kanjeng Kiai Pamor. The kratons in both Solo and Yogya use it to make their keris - up till now.

I would suspect that before the Prambanan meteor fell there the idea and the use of meteorite in the pamor of keris was already traditional. There is no evidence that the 18th century Jawanese considered the use of meteorite as something novel, which would be expected if the idea of using meteorite was new. Iron has always been imported to Jawa and respected historian D.Lombard even went to suggest that Jawa keris are characteristically small because of the rarity of iron there.

Meteorite in keris is a sexy subject and if you go to a keris seller Indonesia and insist that you want a keris with meteorite pamor it is very likely that she or he will be able to show you several. However as Nechesh said there is no way to prove either way if the making of the keris was not recorded.

Warm Salaams to all,
KC

[Narrue]

Narrue, have you ever put a geiger counter near a meteorite? What makes you think it would be radio-active? Your knowledge of science dear Narrue is beginning to rival your knowledge of the keris.

Nechesh you portray yourself as knowing much, even about Science and if so you should know that meteorites are slightly radioactive ;)

Now I know why you think all kris makers have mystical powers :rolleyes:
I know about the meaning of meteorite from above and iron from Earth.
But you should know that my all meteorite keris steel still has the same meaning i.e. meteorite from above and carbon from Earth. This is only symbolic though and dose not mean that the keris will automatically have mystical powers, in both cases

[Narrue]

"One of the remarkable things about SaU 169 is its very high concentration of radioactive thorium. By assuming that SaU 169 came from one of the most radioactive spots in gamma-ray maps, Gnos and his team were able to limit the origin of the meteorite to a few sites on the moon's surface. They narrowed the candidates down to one, the Lalande Crater area, by matching the ages of known craters to the dates of the second and third impacts. The last impact, which launched the meteor into space, occurred less than 340,000 years ago. SaU 169 thus presumably spent a relatively short time in outer space before Earth's gravity pulled it in. --Michael Schirber " Sicentific American


I am not saying that meteorites are highly radioactive but meteorite Iron will be more radioactive then a lump of modern steel, assuming you don’t get it from a radioactive hot spot on earth

[Sgt_Major]

I dont profess to have any special powers, or gifts from a god I doubt exists. However, I have handled old silat weapons where I have felt a surge of something in the blade. A few times I have rapidly set the blade down and backed away with the taste of blood in my mouth. Other times there has been a simple warmth radiating from the blade, and most often there is nothing, just a nicely crafted, well balanced weapon.

The significance in that ... I dunno, I just have to be careful with the weapons I choose I guess.

[Garuda]

I am no expert in the field of kerises, but what I heard was that kerises made in the era and area of the Kingdom of Dhoho were made of meteorite. Is this correct?

Garuda...

[nechesh]

Narrue (and anyone interested in this fascinating subject of meteoric ore and the keris), here is a link to an indepth and well researched discussion from the Ethnographic Edged Weapons Forum. It is FIVE! web pages long and has many links throughout to other related websites. So grab a cup of coffee guys and pull up a chair. :D I'm sure you will allfind it most imformative and hopefully it will dispell some rumors and myths:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=269&highlight=meteorite

[rizal]

i don't know why the big fuss about.
the use of meteorite in blademaking is generations old. And not only restricted to Kerises. the meteorite metal is superior because it is not an iron ore but an 'primitive' steel alloy, with various small amount of other metals (beryllium, manganese, even titanium, etc).
but it takes a good swordsmith to form that in to a sword/keris/katana. Many historical legends abound that told us how an ore was so difficult to use, that an 'extra' ritual must needed, ergo an experienced, well respected, 'professor' is needed.
concerning mysticism, well mostly it is only self-suggestion. A keris may make us invulnerable to bullets if we choose to believe it so. If not, it is still a deadly weapon.
but i do believe that a well-made keris can withstand more 'tenaga dalam' when wielded, even absorb some of it to make it more deadly (e.g. increase in structural integrity, etc).
then again, to really detect these, you need to train your internal systems hard to develop the sensitivity for it. Butm jokingly, my guru said when I achieve it, I might not need that weapon. :)

[nechesh]

Nechesh you portray yourself as knowing much, even about Science and if so you should know that meteorites are slightly radioactive ;)

Now I know why you think all kris makers have mystical powers :rolleyes:
I know about the meaning of meteorite from above and iron from Earth.
But you should know that my all meteorite keris steel still has the same meaning i.e. meteorite from above and carbon from Earth. This is only symbolic though and dose not mean that the keris will automatically have mystical powers, in both cases

Many things on this planet are SLIGHTLY radioactive. It is the nature of the decay of matter. Slightly radioactive will not make a geigercounter "go wild" as you stated in an earlier post. And you will not be able to detect meteorite in a keris this way either. Period.
If you can show me the post where i claimed ALL keris makers have mystical powers i would be very interested to see it. You know full well i was only referring to your comments on the 3 empus. Please stop trying to twist my words to make me look bad, It only reflects upon yourself. I am beginning to think you must be a very young man indeed. :)
BTW, i think it is the very rare keris that exihibits signs of mystical power, regardless of it's age.

[nechesh]

Kiai, i will certainly concede that meteoric pamor may have existed before Prambanan. I am just trying to establish that it wasn't the norm in keris pamor, but something very, very special. :)

[Kiai Carita]

I am no expert in the field of kerises, but what I heard was that kerises made in the era and area of the Kingdom of Dhoho were made of meteorite. Is this correct? Garuda...

Peace to all

Actually as Nechesh said the only proven meteorite keris are those young keris made using the Prambanan pamor. The Daha period is not really mentioned much in kerisology and is not a special tangguh, but the tangguh Jenggala (as you know, Mpu Baradah flew across the land of Daha-Kahuripan and divided the kingdon into Jenggala and Kediri) is a sophisticated and handsome keris with well worked iron.

Were they made of meteorite? Who knows.

Pamor, -means something you mix in- can come from many different sources. If there was workable meteorite then the meteorite would be used but often smiths would use different iron from different sources to make pamor. Like pamor Luwu is made from iron imported from Luwu in Sulawesi. It is interesting that the keris made by the Rembrant of keris makers, Mpu Supa sepuh of Majapahit, are most often kelengan -without pamor patterns, just black (from arsenic). Most of the keris pusaka in the kraton are also simple dhapur and pamor.

Warm salaams to all
KC

[Narrue]

i do believe that a well-made keris can withstand more 'tenaga dalam' when wielded, even absorb some of it to make it more deadly (e.g. increase in structural integrity, etc)

What do you mean by withstand more tenaga dalam? Are you saying that a bad keris would not be able to withstand the tenaga dalum and so would be destroyed :eek: Wow that would be very impressive. I take my hat off to anyone who can destroy even a common butter knife with his tenaga dalam.

I would say a well made keris has the potential to store,hold or transmit more energy. I seriously doubt that anyone can destroy a keris with his inner power even if it is a very badly made keris, if there is such a person I would love to meet him :D