Hsing I ??

[nzric]

I'd love to hear some tips from anyone studying Hsing I... I've been studying Yang style tai chi for about two years, and ba gua circle form for around six months. I'm interested in comparing the different internal styles and wanted to know some ideas about Hsing I.

Anyone know some basic solo drills so I can learn the fundamentals of Hsing I? It would be good if you could give me a few tips and maybe relate them to the movements/principles of TJQ and BGZ.

Cheers.

[WhiteWizard]

From what i know which is very little Hsing i or xing yi involves generating power through straight lines its a very linear art different to bag ua lot of explosive power as i said i don't know much about it but thats what i do know

[SoKKlab]

Basically there are three Styles or systems of Hsing-I that developed within Hopei province. Conservative, Natural and Synthetic.

Hsing-I manifests itself in Five elements or forms (Wu-Hsing).
Those being:
Splitting (p'i ch'uan)-The rise and fall of a chopping axe
Crushing (peng ch'uan)-Simultaneous expansion and contraction
Drilling (ts'uan ch'uan)-Flow in curves
Pounding (p'ao ch'uan)-Suddenly projectile like striking
Crossing (heng ch'uan)-Forward strikes with rounded energy

Then there are the twelve Animal parts of Hsing-I.

The basic feel is the same as Bagua, in that you use Rise, Fall, Drill, Overturn. Solid footwork is stressed and it is largely linear, the body is relaxed until the final instant.

Once you have learnt the Five elements of Hsing-I, you do those as a solo drill.

There are now some half-decent books on Hsing-I, which will be able to give you a good overview of training tactics and form, drills, including specific drills for developing the major league speed and power that Hsing-I is famous for.
YMAA have done one by Liang Shou Yu.

[Kat]

There are quite a few Xing Yi Quan teachers in Sydney,including Sun Da Fa in Surrey,and Fong Lee in Chinatown.I would recommend checking out Yi quan (some mainland teachers at ANU,who are very good)as its training apporach has many simularities to EM systems.
This site is good for Info
www.yiquan.com

Hope thats some good juice.:D

[TkdWarrior]

try www.emptyflower.com
-TkdWarrior-

[nzric]

Thanks - that's a real help.

Those old films in emptyflower.com are amazing!

[Bodhidharma]

I think Hsing Yi (Xing Yi Quan) can be compared with Tai Ji Quan Chen Styles, because it's movements are explosive rather than armonius and beatiuful (Tai Ji Quan Yang style)....

[keith1892]

how did you practice ba gua without hsing-i? ba gua is hsing-i & tai chi combined. you really need to understand those arts before you get into ba gua.

[nzric]

Keith1892 - In answer to your question, I practice Fa-jing taiji, Erle Montaigue's style. It is Yang (Lu-chan) taiji but it has much more fajing than usual Yang style. We do a lot of dim mak katas and power generation work in the class.

My teacher (Keith Brown) also teaches Wudang Shan, so I have learned practice drills in that style, like wudang hand weapons forms, etc., that I think are similar to Hsing-I.

[Kat]

Keith
Why do you feel BGZ is a combination of XYQ and TJQ?
They are 3 distinctly different northern Chinese MA.While many a teacher learn all 3 and they are grouped as "Internal" I think you will find that this deirves from the fact of Locality(Northern China,Beijing) and that famous teacher's of those discilplines interacted with each other.
Interested asI haven't heard of any reference that BGZ is a product of XYQ and TJQ combined?
The closest I could think of would be of SLT combining all 3 into his own form of TJQ.
Cheers

[keith1892]

b/c it is a known fact that ba gua includes both hsing-i & tai chi. ask anyone who practices it. yes, they can be seen as 3 different arts but ba gua incorporates both hsing-i & tai chi.

[Kat]

OK Obviously you believe this to be true,but I am wondering where you got this information from?

BGZ has many styles but general concenus is that it is derived from a gent by the name of Dong Hai Chuan who was teaching in Beijing area in the latter half of the 19 th century,who was inpart influenced by Daoist practisces.

I am only speculating,that you have been told that the(BGZ) style you practise is a derivative of XYQ & TJQ, would that be correct?

In opposition to this fact,I think if you place this question on KFO and check lineage/history infor(on the net) on BGZ, you will find the majority to be saying that BGZ developed from its own unique roots.

[dmiller575]

I don't know if this helps but I did Ba Gua & Hsing I for a few months. The style was Goa - I think.

A legend/myth has it that a Ba Gua master had a fight with a Hsing I master and they could not beat each other. They made a pact that in future Ba Gua and Hsing I would be taught together.

My undestanding is that most Ba Gua classes include Hsing I but the time spent is usually much more on Ba Gua.

Tai Chi, Ba Gua & Hsing I are the three main/most well known internal martial arts of China. Each one stands alone as a Martial Art in that they have their own separate history and development.

However Ba Gua & Hsing I came together as I outlined above. I understand that there is a Martial art called SUN style Tai Chi Chuan which althouhg it goes under the guise of Tai Chi is actually a blend of all three.

In a Ba Gua class it is made clear that there is a period of time within the class when you are practicing Ba Gua as distinct from Hsing I but I don't know if the SUN style makes that distinction during the class or if the three arts are blended into an indistict bundle.

A sad fact is that there are not very many folk in the UK who teach Ba Gua and Hsing I. However you have just prodded me into wanting to go back to classes again. Thanks

[WhiteWizard]

I want to find some classes :)

[keith1892]

my teacher was taught by a man named Chiao Chang Hung. He was the top student of Mai Wei Chi, Who was the top student of Jan Yu-Lin, who was one of the 7 best students of Dong Hai Chuan. Yes, it is a fact that those 3 arts are distinct. & the story that was told about the 2 masters is true. but my teacher says that ga gua has both hsing-i and tai chi. if you do both arts, you can understand ba gua much better b/c majority of the moves, concepts, etc. will be the same. dmiller, i'm glad i i got u to think about taking classes again. i will see if i can find teachers for you that are in the UK

[Kat]

OK so your teacher told you that your style has influence from TJ&XY.This is very different from BGZ being a result of TJ&XY.Your original question to Nzric was with some ridicule,but the facts are that they are many styles of BGZ and while they may share simular principles each may have disinct training methods,particularly as DHQ encouraged fiting the art to the practitioner.People can leran BGZ alone,they can even learn circle walking alone,the greatest element effecting understanding is probally the teacher.

[SoKKlab]

Also for more Hsing-I info try
www.hsing-I.com
which is Mike Patterson's site in CA, USA.

Some very nice Hsing-I, Ba Gua, Tai Ji, Lu He Ba Fa (Sp?)
and Chin Na clips, articles etc. Explainations of technical aspects etc.

[nzric]

I think I created a monster! Put it this way. I've been interested in the principles of Hsing-I as they seem to emphasis direct issuing force above other principles. But we should remember that it's not the art that matters, it's the practice. No-one would pass up learning a good method of movement if it helps some part of their training, just because it has the wrong label attached to it.

I learned tjq from someone who is predominantly a ba gua teacher (Kat, as you know), so I'm aware my tai chi has a 'ba gua' flavour to it. Also, I'm not a small guy (I'm tall, not large) so I'm interested in the fajing and the power generation of the internal arts more than the quick, intricate movements that little guys tend to do, hence my interest in XY.

I'd still argue that you can learn each art seperately, but it depends how you intend to use it. I agree all three are very valuable but we all know how difficult it is to understand the concepts behind the movements, not to mention the movements themselves, so you have to take things one at a time.

The internal forms (of all three arts) are designed to teach the body mechanics and the way to understand your body - once you know your body you can just adapt new ideas no matter where they came from.

Thanks for the links, everyone.

[Kat]

Nzric, Well said
I was just annoyed at how Keith infered that your learning BGZ without first learning XYQ was bad.

[keith1892]

i wasn't saying his training of ba gua without hsing i was bad. usually someone who teaches ba gua doesn't teach it until the student takes hsing i and tai chi. the commonality i was making between the three arts: hsing i, tai chi, and ba gua is that they are all internal...have crossed paths in history, and have similiarities in techniques.

[keith1892]

i apologize for any misinterpretations of my postings. it's not very often someone learns just ba gua without experience in hsing-i or tai chi.

[Syd]

Since when?

[DeVere]

b/c it is a known fact that ba gua includes both hsing-i & tai chi. ask anyone who practices it. yes, they can be seen as 3 different arts but ba gua incorporates both hsing-i & tai chi.

With all due respect, this is simply not true. These 3 arts are commonly referred to as China's big three internal body boxing styles, and while they all utilize the similar internal principles, their mindset, and way of attacking/defending, are unique to each art.

Xingyi is very linear, direct and aggressive in it's mindset/approach - unlike Bagua which is circular/evasive or Taiji - blending/sticking/following. Xingyi's movements are based on the spear and was created for the battlefiend (circa. 1600) long before Bagua even existed. It is primarily a striking art although it does contain some kicks and ground work. It's quick, powerful, fast and explosive - like a mortar round or cannon going off.

D.

[keith1892]

thank you for the info...if i may ask, where do u draw your sources & who is your teacher(s)?

[Syd]

What Devere has stated is public knowledge and nothing that would need varifying from individual teachers... it's standard fact.

[Shade]

I understand that the three arts (Taiji, Hsing I and Ba Gua) are linked in that they are thought of as the main internal arts.

What are they actually like to perform in practice though? By that I mean if you were studying all three, or were proficient (on some level) in all three, do they work well together?

The reason I ask is twofold.

Firstly I will be commencing my own study of Taiji in the new year, and may wish to expand into these other arts. If they do blend in well, this is very exciting for me.

Secondly DeVere mentions that the arts have their own unique styles (linear, direct and agressive for Hsing I, circular/evasive for Ba Gua, and blending/sticking/following for Taiji) which on face value appear to be conflicting. Maybe this fits in well with the overall yin/yang thing? Also it is of course interesting to have various styles at ones command.

[hwardo]

Keith1892--
Bagua and Hsing I were traditionally taught together, and as different schools blended together, certain bagua styles became a sort of hybrid of all the internal arts, but this is a diluting of the original art form-- bagua's circular philosophy of motion is based on the I Ching's 8 changes-- hence "8 triagram palm. Hsing I is based on the animal styles, and has a completely different philosophy of movement. While the styles have been mixed in many schools, it is valuable to remember that bagua and hsing I are their own distinct arts so that we can preserve both styles.

[Syd]

Shade,

There are many other internal styles that are indoor and remain hidden, or those that are lost to the sands of time. There is a fourth internal art not mentioned above which is Liu He Ba Fa (Six Harmonies, Eight Methods). Out of the four mentioned above it is interesting to note that Hsing I and Liu He Ba Fa are actually the oldest.

Hsing I, it is often said, is the most external of the four styles with Taijiquan being the most internal. Both Baguazhang and Liu He Ba Fa are somewhere inbetween. Having said that, there is a 5th style, but this is an unknown indoor art which I am currently a student of called, Wun Yuen Yut Hei Jeung, or Continuously Circulating One Breath Palm.

I would say that Taijiquan, Baguazhang and Liu He Ba Fa are closer in principle, technique and application than Hsing I is. Hsing I would be closer in nature to Chen Style Taijiquan, in some, but not all ways. Ofcourse Baguazhang employs different methods of achieving it ends and aims to Taijiquan and Liu He Ba Fa, as do the latter two in relation to the former.

None are the same and yet all are the same, if that makes sense. I would say that you will most likely find Baguazhang a very nice companion art to Taijiquan, but this depends on your intent and which art fits your personal goals later on. It is not recommended to attempt all three however and once you begin one art you'll see how keeping track of two is a full time job in and of itself.

Essentially you will find that the methods of Taiji, Baguazhang and Liu He Ba Fa particularly, overlap in certain applications and this is where we begin to see in higher levels of practice the nexus point where all these arts blend together and are clearly of a similar family.

All these arts use circular power and spiralling power apart from Hsing I which is far more direct and uses the Creation/Destruction cycle of Chinese 5 Element theory as it's template. I am of the opinion that Hsing I is more in the Baiji and Chen area than in the Taiji Baguzhang and Liu He Ba Fa area, but this is only my personal opinion based on my own research and observations.

Any two of the above will keep you busy for a lifetime. ;) As to what they are like in performance? You'll have to actually perform them to know because describing it is pretty difficult, you really have to feel them, perform them, to know them. A way to get an idea though is go to www.martialartsmart.com, go to the video's section and download the brief clips of various styles and systems. This should give you a very basic idea of what your looking at when discussing these various arts.

Best, Syd

[DeVere]

Thanks Syd. The last three posters pretty much summed it up. And the info I provided is basic knowledge that can be found in any Xingyi or internal arts book. It's also from personal experience and endless reading and research. I also have an indepth web site on the art with tons of info: emptyFlower (http://www.emptyflower.com)

I was taught by Gong Zhongxiang, a student of Zhu Guiting, student of Li Cunyi.

Here's some vids, Shade.
Xingyi form - not sure what form it is, but you can see many of xingyi's animals in it such as Tiger, Snake and Horse.
http://homepage.mac.com/stevefarrell/images/hsingyform.mov

Splitting Fist (xingyi's signature form): http://homepage.mac.com/stevefarrell/images/Splitting.movXingyi form (http://homepage.mac.com/stevefarrell/images/hsingyform.mov)

[Syd]

Very nice website David, I like your style my friend. ;)

[DeVere]

Thanks, pally!

[Shade]

Syd, as usual a font of fantastic knowledge :)

Just out of curiosity how long have you been studying Taiji?

DeVere, thanks for the links. Your own site is superb (both the martial arts one (which has some great links in there also) and your main site). :D

[nzric]

DeVere - your site is excellent. I have been going back to it for months now (where did you get the amazing clips from??)

Keep it up. We need more skilled people promoting the cause of IMA to the world!

[keith1892]

is anybody here familiar with the little nine heaven system?

[keith1892]

devere, you seem quite knowledgable in the internal arts...but do you see what i'm saying when i say that bagua has hsing i & tai chi elements? not to be confused with the 5 elements of hsing-i but with the principles? i may be wrong i would like other people's opinions. obviously my teacher would be the best person to talk to about this but i am going by what he has told me, however, i may have either misinterpreted a few things or have stated them wrong...if i did i am sorry but i do remember something as to how they are connected in a way. syd, do you practice water boxing? that is a very mysterious art that i heard was somewhat similar to bajiquan, is that true? also, what arts are you currently pracitcing under what teacher?

[Syd]

Shade,

I've been actively practicing Taijiquan for about 3 years with allot of gaps in between. I spent about 5 years mentally practicing Taiji philosophically, if that makes any sense, before I started any training... now I try and do both. I'm pretty much a beginner. ;)

Keith,

No I don't practice Liu He Ba Fa but my teacher used to but now only teaches Wun Yuen Yut Hei Jeung as he believes it to be a superior art to LHBF. I don't think Liu He Ba Fa and Baiji are similar at all but then there are varying styles and influences of LHBF. Some systems of LHBF have a distinct Hsing I influence, others a Taiji or Bagua influence. It is the kind of art that is easily influenced by the other arts your train in.

Currently I am only training under one teacher. He is the one who teaches Wun Yuen. In the 60's he was a Choy Lay Fut fighter in Thailand and one of the 5 Tigers of Canton. Very few fighters did well in Thailand in the old days against the Thai fighters, but the Choy Lay Fut guys did and my teacher was one of them.

Having said that though I heard recently that a Taiji fighter in Thailand was shot dead in China Town because he defeated a Thai Boxer. It doesn't give you much impetus to go to a place like that and do well if thats the result.

In regards to Taijiquan, I used to train under Keith Brown who is the WTBA's highest graded instructor but my location changed and I pretty much train alone these days and with a motley group of Fajing bandits... NZric is one of them.

Best, Syd

200th POST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[keith1892]

Syd,
that's amazing that your teacher is a Choy Lay Fut fighter that was successful in Thailand. My old Muay Thai instructor always told us stories about those kinds of fights & said that the Choy lay Fut fighters were not treated with much respect. also, i don't know if you're familiar with san shou but from what i was told by my wushu teacher, the san shou fighters from china compete with thai fighters & have traditionally beaten them every year. however, now it's getting closer b/c the thai fighters are picking up on the san shou techniques that beat them. i dont' know, i thought i would just stick that in there. if you're really into the internal arts, read up on little nine heaven, it's awesome. www.littlenineheaven.com check it out

[DeVere]

Thank you nzric and Shade - when I first started training kungfu I couldn't find many books on xingyi, let alone on the net. So I went sorta nuts and created the site for people that may have never heard of the art. The clips were contributed to the site, as well as a lot of the training info in the CRUSHING section by martial arts writers and/or teachers. Much of it written for the site itself. :)

Keith, as I stated in my previous post, yes all 3 arts do have similar internal principles - that's why they get lumped together into one "family." Perhaps some teachers teach a hybrid systm and there is a style called Xingi-Bagua, but the again, basic xingyi principles are different than bagua principles. Xingyi hollows the chest, rolls the tailbone under, utilizes 70/30 weight distribution, the arms/hands remain on the centerline (for the most part), etc - Bagua is different. Maybe I'm not getting by what you mean by "principles..."

Xingyi and Bagua were often taught together, but we're talking about martial artists who for them this was their life - they were mercenaries, body gaurds or whatever. In this day and age, and with the invention of a little thing called gunpower, it's just not practical. Either way, I'd recommend sticking with one cause like Syd said, one will keep you busy a lifetime!

[Syd]

Keith,

that's amazing that your teacher is a Choy Lay Fut fighter that was successful in Thailand.

He's not a Choy Lay Fut fighter anymore. Infact he gave it away due to an injury in the early 60's and went to see a Traditional Chinese Doctor who was also an internal arts master. This is when he began Liu He Ba Fa and then later was taught Wun Yuen Yut Hei Jeung.

My old Muay Thai instructor always told us stories about those kinds of fights & said that the Choy lay Fut fighters were not treated with much respect.

Being treated with respect and being effective are slightly different things. There were 5 well known Choy Lay Fut fighters in Asia and my teacher was one of them. Obviously there may have been other Choy Lay Futters who didn't do so well, just as there would have been Thai Boxers who lost out to Choy Lay Futters.

It is well documented, and I have two seperate books on multiple styles of Kung Fu, that Choy Lay Fut was known for defeating Thai boxers and was a premiere style in the Asian region. Your teacher may be unaware of the 5 Tigers of Canton or perhaps he was misinformed himself.

You can also see that an outside style defeating the native style of a country is going to be VERY political. I don't think Thai people are ever going to want to openly admit that their own national style could be bettered. The case of the recently shot Taiji fighter is a perfect example.

As to other arts like 9 heavens, I'll look out for it, but generally I've got my hands full with Taijiquan and Wun Yuen as it stands!

Best, Syd

[Shade]

Congrats on 200th post Syd.

a motley group of Fajing bandits

this made me smile :D and has given me an image of you running around in bandana's robbing from the rich and giving to the poor



Latest addition*****this was a joke by the way.

And i'm thinking of changing my name to Threadkiller....what do you think?

[keith1892]

The basis of Little Nine Heaven (Hsiao Chiu Tien) has been recorded in Chinese historical books as originating from the Nine Chamber scriptures written by the Yellow Emperor, Huang-Ti (2698B.C.-2598B.C.). Its theory is based on yin/yang, five elements and the constellations and positions of divinatory symbols. Its aim is entering Tao by way of skills. Huang-Ti is credited with improving upon the art of wrestling to defeat the rebellious tribal chieftains, thus bringing all corners of the land under control. This victory laid down a solid foundation of unity for the Chinese nation. Huang-Ti's military feats and tactics were the beginning of China's martial arts.

Martial arts thrived and became a science in the Tang (A.D.618-906) and Sung Dynasties (AD 906-1127). The hand-to-hand fighting gradually developed into a science of boxing and later split into sects of internalism and externalism. The external system advocates firmness and strength benefiting bones and muscles, while the internal system advocates gentleness and grace, benefiting internal organs. Despite their differences, both systems are of the same origin. The Taoist, Wu Dao Zi of the Tang Dynasty, while adhering to the theories of Huang-Ti's nine chamber scriptures, blended the static and kinetic self-defense functions of the birds, animals, insects and fish into one system. He established a school of boxing and swordsmanship that comprised the skills of wrestling, striking, seizing and kicking, along-with the skills of controlling chi and preserving the spirit through the cultivation of bone marrow washing. This school was named Little Nine Heaven Wu Tao. The students of this school were used to guard the temples of the Taoists priests. This is actually the origin of the present day Little Nine Heaven system.

[moondog]

keith... just in response to your post about san shou fighters beating muay thai... i wish it were true but muay thai fighters regularly beat the san shou fighters... there was one tournament where san shou dominated but this was because elbow strikes to the face were either not allowed or were not counted as points, i forgot which one it was... other than that the muay thai fighters wiped out the san shou guys... there's a website somewhere dedicated on the showdown between muay thai and san shou and should give you all the info, i somehow lost the address