Wing Chun Kung Fu

[AgentX]

Frends of Wing Chun ...Join us!!!
Let us discuss about Wing Chun.

[AgentX]

What do you think is the best way to develop defence?

[Greg-VT]

In Wing Chun? I have a opinions, but first I would like to hear what you think, just to see what your after.... specifics etc.

What would you say is the best way to develop defence? ;)

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by AgentX
What do you think is the best way to develop defence?

Get someone to hit you, then try and stop them. :D

[WhiteWizard]

live in a portective bubble all your life :D

[Greg-VT]

I recall people getting into trouble for not seriously answering a new members post... how about you Andy ;)

:D

[Andy Murray]

I WAS being serious! ;)

In the context of Wing Chun, you get better defence by playing with people who are better than you. They hit you, so you get better!

Truly developing defence involves then going and getting non WC people to hit you. Otherwise all you have is theory.

[Greg-VT]

Sorry, just a bit of cheek ;)

Anyway, I consider that the offensive and defensive training in WC actually relies very heavily on each other, as they are often not as distinguished as in other styles.

What I'm saying is that we train both defense and offence simultaneously. Not separately. Personally I don't see how they could be.

[Andy Murray]

I get your drift VT.

One thing I will say from what I have observed in WC circles so far, is that not many people go and test their skills with non WC people.

It's a major flaw, as you need to be able to read/see attacks coming as opposed to just feeling them as in Chi Sao.

[Greg-VT]

Yeah, I agree.
Although I feel that sometimes too much importance is placed on Chi Sau in the wider WC community. If too much reliance is placed on Chi Sau, then yes, there is going to be flaw.

Unlike you, I have not seen many other WC schools then the one I am currently in, so I can not comment too much on their teaching methods. One of the main points we focus on is it's effectiveness against common fighting situations.... as well as against other WC fighters.

[Sporran]

Grrrrrrr!

Chi sau is a tool, part of the arsenal; no more, no less.
It isn't fighting, it isn't sparring, it is simply a drill for developing tactile reflex.

If you you want to develop defence, you have to ask a more specific question; defence against what? Then, as Andy so succinctly said, train against that.

Best way, do you own thang (baby), against dudes doing theirs.
then kick they sorry asses.


[NB: Bad idea posting when pissed and having watched Tarantino movies this week]

PS On Monday, I will be sober and posting from work, so wil be more likely to answer in a fashion not resembling Samuel L Jackson.

[Greg-VT]

Originally posted by Bigrich
Grrrrrrr!

Chi sau is a tool, part of the arsenal; no more, no less.
It isn't fighting, it isn't sparring, it is simply a drill for developing tactile reflex.




We know this, mate. We never mentioned it as fighting or sparring. :D

[Sporran]

Oh alright, make me type more then......

Since we ALL agree that chi sau is a drill, how would / can you drill "lin sil die dar", while still retaining realism and systemic integrity?

Free spar? San sau? Chi sau? All of the above?

Actually, since we are all chums here, please make the above read "how does one drill etc etc"

Then we can all be T'ai chi buddies and hug, then discuss energy flux. (Fearing that you may be gentle and kind, that was intened to be read ironically.)

[Greg-VT]

Ok, if I got your drift and to be direct...

I would say free spar or San Sau. I could thorw in Chi sau, but that's not exactly "retaining realism".


Don't expect me to say too much about individual techniques, I'm still very much a novice. :D

[AgentX]

I mean defence against punching ,mainly.
Can trainning in wooden dummy help?How many times a
workout should be a drill aplied?

[Greg-VT]

WC's defence is mainly against punching.

The Wooden Dummy? Hmm... I don't know. Anyone here up to the Wooden Dummy yet?

How long have you have you been training for AgentX? Unless your instructor has said you can , I wouldn't suggest the Wooden Dummy just yet. Ask your instructor if your up to the WD.

As I said Above, alot of Wing Chun is against punching. Most of the exercises your instructor has set should cover these defences. Chi Sau, San Sau, sparring.

Just as Andy said above, just get someone you know to try hit you... And use your "defence" techniques agianst them. Let them know they may get hit ;).

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by AgentX
I mean defence against punching ,mainly.
Can training in wooden dummy help?How many times a
workout should be a drill aplied?

A dummy is of limited value in the context of defence.
It won't hit you.
It allows you to work on footwork, posture and structure, which are better trained against a live opponent.

I don't think you can ever do a drill too often, as long as it is being tested properly.

[Sporran]

I agree to some extent about the repetition of drilling. One needs to be aware of the need for variation in the drill too, but then I assume that is what you're meaning with the testing comment.

I disagree about the dummy. While it won't hit back, it will reinforce your structure and does give feedback in kinaesthetic terms. With no chi sau partner for 2 years, all I had was the dummy, and I still improved. How, since the dummy can't attack me? Visualisation and reinforcement from the dummy. Sparring helps too. After all, if you're training right, that's where your chi sau skils should be applied anyway.

And all that bollocks about the dummy being an advanced practice is just so much mystical BS. I can see it now, down at the local boxing gym...."no, you can't use the pads yet, that's for 10 year students. Do more shadow boxing..." LOL

It's just a tool guys. If you can't use it for basics, how valuable can it be for 'advanced' techniques? Since, after all, the advanced stuff IS just basics, performed appropriately.

Got a bit testy there. Must chill out with beer. mmmmmm, beer.

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Bigrich


1/

I agree to some extent about the repetition of drilling. One needs to be aware of the need for variation in the drill too, but then I assume that is what you're meaning with the testing comment.

2/

I disagree about the dummy. While it won't hit back, it will reinforce your structure and does give feedback in kinaesthetic terms. With no chi sau partner for 2 years, all I had was the dummy, and I still improved. How, since the dummy can't attack me? Visualisation and reinforcement from the dummy. Sparring helps too. After all, if you're training right, that's where your chi sau skils should be applied anyway.



1/

More or less Rich. Not just playing rhythmical patti cake making nice slappy noises, but making them more live.

2/

I more or less said the same. Just making the point that a live person would be my first choice for testing my defences, over an inanimate object.

Yes, a dummy is a tool, and therefore has value.

[Greg-VT]

Originally posted by Bigrich
And all that bollocks about the dummy being an advanced practice is just so much mystical BS. I can see it now, down at the local boxing gym...."no, you can't use the pads yet, that's for 10 year students. Do more shadow boxing..." LOL


No offence, but I see you have a lack of understanding.

Besides that, yea it's tool. And unless a practitioner knows all the techniquies, I don't see how it could be properly used to it's enitre benefit.

[Sporran]

"No offence, but I see you have a lack of understanding."

How could anyone possibly be offended by such a friendly and informed statement. :rolleyes:

Taking aside the fact that you are incorrect, why don't you come up with some reasons instead? Every tool has value to any user, some more, some less.

Take a beginner who is learning pak sau for the first time. How will repetition on the dummy do anything other than help his progress? It has nothing to do with entire benefit, it has to do with appropriate practice. The dummy can help anyone, as long as they get shown grade-appropriate drills to do. I'm not talking about getting them to do the form.

Please, mate, leave the sh!t-talking out until you get the point. I see the ugly head of "Sifu sez" rearing high.
The universe is succeeding well in your case.......

[Jonny Chee]

I have only been practicing Wing Chun for around a year and plan to obtain a dummy for myself very shortly. Other students in the class who are nowhere near the dummy stage are already purchasing them and the benefits are clearly visible.
While I would much prefer to practice with a 'live' opponent, it is not often possible for me. This is where the use of a dummy comes into its own. I feel it would help me to improve my hand and footwork techniques (via repitition) enormously. I dont think the dummy should be used only by advanced students, but by anybody practitioner who can get hold of one. It can only improve the individual and will probably help them get through the later dummy technique stage with more ease.

[Greg-VT]

Originally posted by Bigrich
Please, mate, leave the sh!t-talking out until you get the point. I see the ugly head of "Sifu sez" rearing high.
The universe is succeeding well in your case.......


I knew I was going get into trouble for that one.

Geez mate, settle down. I wasn’t talking sh** of anyone of anything. I hate the way online forums don't convey any level of seriousness.

What's this "Sifi sez" bullsh**? Yeah whatever, if your trying to really p**s me off then your succeeding. Do it again.

If it appeared that I was talking sh**, then you might want to read through this again....

And all that bollocks about the dummy being an advanced practice is just so much mystical BS. I can see it now, down at the local boxing gym...."no, you can't use the pads yet, that's for 10 year students. Do more shadow boxing..." LOL



Your really missing the point.

I never said the dummy is for advanced practitioners only. If did, then you might want to quote me just so I can see what I wrote.

You may notice that I asked X how long he had been practicing WC. You'll also notice that his question is specifically about defense techniques and how to practice them.

The reasoning for asking X on the duration of his training was to he has only been training for, duh. If he had been training for, say, 8 hours (total), then I don't see how WD could seriously help any more then anything else he may be practicing for defense.

Now, don’t you agree, that if techniques are not properly taught in the first place (ie. rushed through, to move onto the next step), that those techniques would continue to be incorrectly practiced? And possibly down the track, incorrectly taught??
Agree? I would.Say a first time student just learnt/showed a technique… just then, right this moment. Do you think he should me moved right away to the dummy?

I also consider the WD to be accompanied with the WD form. But training methods vary....

As for...
I can see it now, down at the local boxing gym...."no, you can't use the pads yet, that's for 10 year students. Do more shadow boxing..." LOL

Well, it's kind of left field... but I may as well add -rather weakly just to fit in with it: Would you get someone to use pads who didn’t have clue how to punch?? LOL

[AgentX]

You better chill out guys.There is no need for two trainning warriors to swear at each other. The essence of MA is discipline.
Even if you are the best warrior ever, you are a faliure if you don't
have self-discipline.Don't stick in words.
AS for what said about my question , I Agree more with BIGRICH
Because, the wooden dummy helpped me.I have none to spar
and despite i do not have the benefits of sparring the dummy
has given me speed and smuthness in my moves.
It does never complain "my hands hurt" or something else,
and it also helps making hands stronger.
My master didn't alow me even touch or hit the dummy neither for
joke.But if he could see my moves now he would think again about it.In an hour i can do what i would do with a partner in hours.In the biggining i was doing it wrong but with time and search(videos, books,etc) i have proper technique and footwork.
The problem is not the technique, but the aplication in an attack.
AND LET US NOT LET THE ARGUMENTS GET BETWEEN US.
Thank you for your time.

[Sporran]

Ving Tsun, I will be happy to discuss matters in a polite manner, but when your post starts off with "No offence, but I see you have a lack of understanding.", I get mildly annoyed. This is because I understand the system perfectly well.

To address your points, my reading of your comments was that you were prohibiting use of the dummy until the student was at the stage of learning the form, which I fundamentally disagree with. You confirmed this when you wrote

"I also consider the WD to be accompanied with the WD form. But training methods vary....
"

If you hadn't been so condescending in the first place, we wouldn't be arguing, especially when it seems that we actually agree on most of what you wrote. Just not the introduction of the dummy apparently.

Lastly, what is the point of the implied threat about "do it again"? You live in Oz, I live in Scotland. Quite frankly, I wouldn't travel that far to get a BJ never mind a fight. Get a grip :cool:

Let's start again, OK?
And by the way, hitting the pads is quite a good way to learn punching....... :D

AgentX, sorry for the minor lapse, I will try and be more calm. I hope that we have been collectively helpful.

[Andy Murray]

Maybe we could all start again?

VT, you were condescending.

BR you overreacted a Tad.

BR raises an interesting point on the Dummy, as Traditionally most WC organisations feel it's something that should be taught when you have the first three forms down, and therefore a good range of technique to play with on the Dummy.

Agent X has answered his own question though, because at the end of the day, if he feels he has gotten something from Dummy practice, then he probably has.

Going back to my own point, you then need to test that out against a live moving opponent, as and when one becomes available.

[Sporran]

Ahhhh, soothing oil on the troubled waters..... thanks Dad.. LOL
I'll play nice if VT does. And he started it. And I want more pocket money. And a Beyblade.

Yes, the dummy thing is traditionally taught quite late, but that has not always been so. Some lines teach it between Chum Kiu and Bui Jee, others after all three empty hand forms. So what; does it all matter?
The system is fluid and mutable, and common sense should tell us that if supplementary training helps, then do it. I am NOT advocating teaching the WD form to beginners, merely that the apparatus has other merits for every student, beginner and advanced. Stagnant thinking leads to a stagnant system.

Looking back though, until very recently there was no WD form. Yip Man didn't teach a consistent form to all his students, only the first few sections. If you compare forms among 'different' lineages it is in the latter sections that the main variations occur.

The original dummy was a pole stuck in the ground. Now THAT's traditional.

And yes, Andy, people are better training partners.
**gets out of teacup now that storm is over**

[Greg-VT]

Originally posted by Bigrich
Ving Tsun, I will be happy to discuss matters in a polite manner, but when your post starts off with "No offence, but I see you have a lack of understanding.", I get mildly annoyed. This is because I understand the system perfectly well.

I'm always happy to discuss matters in a polite manner (and I hope I always do, it's a pride thing), but some things give me an itch, scratching is the best way ;)

I seriously did not intend any offence. Sounds silly, I know. It was not a personal attack on you, just a reply to your comment "And all that bollocks about the dummy... we know the rest". It was intended to come across as a very 'light' comment in very 'light' seriousness.

To address your points, my reading of your comments was that you were prohibiting use of the dummy until the student was at the stage of learning the form, which I fundamentally disagree with.

No, not until learning the form, but at least until the student has an understanding of basic techniques and can perform them. Then they can use them on the dummy...

But yes, I would usually link the WD with the form.

If you hadn't been so condescending in the first place, we wouldn't be arguing, especially when it seems that we actually agree on most of what you wrote. Just not the introduction of the dummy apparently.

I apologize. I have never seriously or intentionally been offensive or condescending to anyone on this forum. I'm sorry I wrote it the way I did... which leads me back to *the only fault in forum communication ;).

Lastly, what is the point of the implied threat about "do it again"? You live in Oz, I live in Scotland. Quite frankly, I wouldn't travel that far to get a BJ never mind a fight. Get a grip :cool:

LOL, mate, it was joke ;) (I refer you to *)

...Actually, I'm planning a trip over there again in 6 months. Will you be free? :woo: ;)

Let's start again, OK?
And by the way, hitting the pads is quite a good way to learn punching....... :D

Start again? Nah, waste of time. Lets just take a giant leap forward. And for the pads.. Really? I always thought to learn the punch first, and use the pads to practice.

AgentX, sorry for the minor lapse, I will try and be more calm. I hope that we have been collectively helpful. [/B][/QUOTE]

Yeah man, I ditto that.

[Sporran]

Hear hear. Apologies all round and a pint if we meet up.

Seriously about the punching though; obviously you show them the mechanics first, but you can get people hitting focus pads in their first lesson. It provides instant feedback. Just don't get them hitting HARD.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not actually a rabid anti-traditionalist, but some things can be tried out, and found helpful.

Glad that we're on the same page now. Mind you, it could all have gone horribly wrong. Like you pointed out, the net misses all nuance of speech. And I fully agree about politeness being something to he proud of.

Jeez, it's all getting a bit much. Who can I swear at now.....?

[AgentX]

GLAD TO SEE THE PEOPLE "AROUND ME" UNITED AGAIN.
You guys know very much about WC.

ALLOW ME another question.

ARE the WC forms essential?
ARE they usefull at all?

I personaly think for the beginners are something but if
you are "advanced" it is so little, in comparison to drills,
to help you develop technique( in the same time of course).

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by AgentX
ALLOW ME another question.

ARE the WC forms essential?
ARE they usefull at all?

I personaly think for the beginners are something but if
you are "advanced" it is so little, in comparison to drills,
to help you develop technique( in the same time of course).

No forms=No Wing Chun.

The forms contain Wing Chun, whether you are a beginner or of advanced standard.

The emphasis each school puts on forms vary, as do standards.

[Sporran]

Oh no, here I go again with the controversy....

There are actually methods of wing chun from the mainland, directly from Leung Jan lineage which don't use the forms.
When he was older, and lived in GuLao village, he taught using san sik (separate techniques), not linked into the forms.

You can check this out if you read "Complete Wing Chun", by Rene Ritchie, Robert Chu and Y. Wu. It has a fascinating comparison of different methods, all verifiable, yet not Yip Man Wing Chun. Decent book.

Where the forms excel, IMO, is in how they are so concise, yet contain the essence of the system. But I do think that as long as the core concepts of the system are taught, including how they relate to each other, you may be able to get along without them.

Maybe just not as well...... :cool:

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Bigrich
Oh no, here I go again with the controversy....

There are actually methods of wing chun from the mainland, directly from Leung Jan lineage which don't use the forms.
When he was older, and lived in GuLao village, he taught using san sik (separate techniques), not linked into the forms.

You can check this out if you read "Complete Wing Chun", by Rene Ritchie, Robert Chu and Y. Wu. It has a fascinating comparison of different methods, all verifiable, yet not Yip Man Wing Chun. Decent book.

Where the forms excel, IMO, is in how they are so concise, yet contain the essence of the system. But I do think that as long as the core concepts of the system are taught, including how they relate to each other, you may be able to get along without them.

Maybe just not as well...... :cool:

Hi BR,

I have the same book by Robert Chu and Rene Ritchie.

It's an eye opener for sure for those who think Wing Chun is only about the Yip Man version. It was however Yip Man Wing Chun I was referring to, so I apologise if I clouded anyones vision. Yip Mans being the most well known version.

We're going beyond answering newbie questions here though?

In class structures. Show the form, then what it's for.

This works in the way Western Culture likes to buy knowledge.

[Sporran]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
Hi BR,

We're going beyond answering newbie questions here though?

In class structures. Show the form, then what it's for.

This works in the way Western Culture likes to buy knowledge.

Fair point, I agree. Just being a pedant.....

:)

[AgentX]

So the forms exist to keep the stracture of the system.But I don'tbelive they are good for trainning .
Drills are better.
Check out boxing , thai-boxing etc
You will say they don't have many moves.WC and other kung fu styles have much more moves.
BUT the basic moves are the ones we know well...
You know much better puc sao than a move you learnt last week...

[Andy Murray]

It's part of the Tradition of the system.

The drills etc come from the forms, so if the art is to be propogated at some point by the student, it's important that they know them, so that the drills can be extracted and understood

[AgentX]

Anything else to sugest for descussion???
:) :Angel:

[Gandhi]

Got something for discussion...
had my first Wing Chun lesson with Sifu Paul Smith on Thurs.
I was just learning basic techniques of course, but he says that in general in wushu you don't aim for pressure points when striking as they are too hard to hit.
Just wondering if this is the general assumption in the wushu community.

Gandhi

[tai-gip]

The best way to develope defence is to tell yourself you cannot hurt the attacker in any way shape or form this means you must develope better reflexes/balance and speed. Hurting and calling it defence is the easy way out though admitedly in terms of practical street applications there may well be situations where this is just not possible however it would prove to be benifical in a street situation had you previously adheared to the principal and improved your speed/balance/reflexes.... u can run faster then...

[tai-gip]

Forms are the style..... the practical applications are inherant in the motions unfortunately no one seems to appreciate a two hour class on form everyone wants to unleash the competative spirit and test the practical application on someone , this however means that what was the correct move becomes changed to suite the given situation eg.strong big guy,small weaker guy so the move becomes mutated into what feels comfortable for the individual . which brings us back to working more on forms ..... kind of a catch 22 i cant find a solution for

[Gandhi]

interesting....
I havn't done any forms yet, but I have done 'Chi Sau'.
It seems to be very good for getting used to the dimentions of your oppenent and knowing your own strengths and weakneses. I know what you mean about getting used to fighting someone of one size. I think you just have to be sure that you practice with lost of different partners.

Went to an interesting Karate seminar a few months ago where the sesi talked about the importance of visulisation in 'kata' or 'forms' in kung-fu.
Its hard to do, but should add more realism and effectiveness to your training, and will stop kata and forms being more of a dance than a martial art.

Gandhi

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Gandhi
Got something for discussion...
had my first Wing Chun lesson with Sifu Paul Smith on Thurs.
I was just learning basic techniques of course, but he says that in general in wushu you don't aim for pressure points when striking as they are too hard to hit.
Just wondering if this is the general assumption in the wushu community.

Gandhi

Hi Ghandi,

These days when people use the term 'Wu Shu' it tends to conjure up images of Satin wearing performers of graceful, gymnastic and artistic forms, though I believe it translates as 'War Arts' of China.

I'm not sure where you are coming from on this. The whole body is a collection of pressure points in one sense. Any place struck on the body will produce a different result.

Some places are more effective to strike than others?

My own opinion would be that, if you do know a particularly effective pressure point to strike or manipulate, it may not work reliably on everyone, so if you insist on relying on such things to incapacitate an opponent, do it when they are already incapacitated. :D

Not a big part of Wing Chun by my interpretation of it.

[Gandhi]

Thanks Andy,

I was really just saying that my Sifu says that pressure points are not commonly aimed for in Wing Chun as they are hard to hit (but effective). He says just to aim for the most 'mechanically' effective point ie the elbow area for a block as it is a bigger target than the small pressure point situated in the top you forearm (with your palm facing downwards) a few inches below your elbow, which is what I was initially aiming for with my blocks.
Just wondering if this was the gereral interpratation.

Sorry if I confused anyone!

With regards to Malaysia - these big namer Sifus look good but I hear they can ber very expensive. Since I am just a poor student, I have been advised by a friend just to wander round local parks in the mornings to look for kung-fu training (apparently a common sight) and see if I can join in.
Thanks for the info anyway, may still come in useful.

Gandhi

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Gandhi
Thanks Andy,

I was really just saying that my Sifu says that pressure points are not commonly aimed for in Wing Chun as they are hard to hit (but effective). He says just to aim for the most 'mechanically' effective point ie the elbow area for a block as it is a bigger target than the small pressure point situated in the top you forearm (with your palm facing downwards) a few inches below your elbow, which is what I was initially aiming for with my blocks.
Just wondering if this was the gereral interpratation.

Gandhi

I would have thought that the 'blocks' Paul taught you were things like Pak Sao and Bong Sao, in which case these are simply deflections to create an opening to strike at with the live hand, and not strikes in their own right?

Introduce yourself to Lynne at Pauls class, AKA forum member 'Fluffydoc'.

Lovely Gal :D

[Freeform]

I'm there sometimes too! ;)

And Andy, I'm to tell you its 'LYNN', not Lynne. :D

I'm outta here, this ain't my area of expertise, later mate!

Col

[Andy Murray]

Understood FF,

I will never spell her name that way again, I wouldn't want to give her a complex or anything. :D

What you getting out of WC FF, if anything?

[Kuen]

From here on I am discussing Ip Man Wing Chun.

The Ving Tsun forms are like the dictionary of the Ving Tsun system. They contain all the techniques, yet do not deal directly with their applications. The forms are there so one may develop proper technique and muscle memory to execute these techniques without thought. Without the forms, there would be no Wing Chun.

However, without the proper applications of these techniques, then the forms are all for naught. Why practise perfect techniques if you never put them to good use? This is where drill work and chi sau come into the equasion.

Some VT schools put far too much emphasis on chi sau, and while it is a very important part of VT, it is not VT in its entirity. Chi sau develops reflexes, sensivitity and close range power, however I have never been in a fight where the other person is in the **** sau/ bong sau position. This is where the drill work comes in, such as hook defense, kick defense, straight punch defense et cetera come in - they are all thrown OUT of in fighting range, and it is the VT pracitioners job to get into bent arm range. Chi sau teaches techiques to use once within this range, but it does not teach how to GET there in the first place. Hence, drills.

If you are only ever practising chi sau, or only ever practising drills, then you are only learning half of VT, and you will never be a complete VT fighter. If you reject the forms, and on the flipside, if you put too much emphasis on them (ie. Jim Fung and their students obsession with Siu Nim Tao as the solution to everything) then you miss the entire point of VT.

[Vdiddy]

Hey guys I am a newcomer to Wing CHun transferring out from Tae Kwon Do. I have a question, or rather a few questions. Whats the best place to look on the body when your trying to read your attackers techniques to block. How do you simalueanout block and counter with pak sao? How loose should a chung choy (fist) and why is it loose? Thanks guys for answering

[Sub zero]

To answer ur question about looking at points on the body for blocking.The MA that i practice (inluding ung fu) always tell you to look at the dip inbetween ur neck and the centre of the begining of ur chest.Becasue u can see what their hands and feet are doing.And don't look straight at something, that's good for colour but perifirl vision (sp?) is better for mvement.

If that's not how WC people do it someone say.And i'd be interested what their theories are.

[Kuen]

In Wing Chun we look at the centre of the chest for the same reasons you listed.

"How do you simalueanout block and counter with pak sao"

Once you have pak sau'd the attackers arm off your centre, your other arm should attack at the same place you pak'd, roughly. Remember to sink with your elbow on the attack to make it a trap also.

[CKava]

Hello Vdiddy,

In relation to how to simultaneously block and strike with a Pak Sao personally I can think of 2 ways...

The first is to use it as a sort of leading on movement- say Pak Sao-ing someone's elbow then (without stopping) carrying the momentum on into a punch. Though you would need to make sure you still have control of their elbow if you wanted to do that- say by using the elbow of the arm your attacking with to keep it controlled/trapped or by alternatively using the other free hand for example...

The second way is a Pak Sao could be quite easily applied as a palm strike if the situation presented itself. Say if you deflected a punch easier than you expected and offbalanced the person you could just carry on through and palm strike.

But the other thing I would maybe suggest is why its aways a good idea to be simultaneously attacking and defending it doesnt necesarily mean you have to use the same hand. Why not just Pak Sao and punch with the other free hand?

Hope some of that is of help.

"How loose should a chung choy (fist) and why is it loose?"
Sorry, Im unfamilar with the term chung choy does is it just a normal chain punch fist your referring to?

[Vdiddy]

Hey guys,

THanks for answering my questions. For some more clarification, when I said simaltaneous block and counter in pak sao i ment one hand does the punch and the other does the block. If you do that wouldnt your hands bang into each other, since both punch and hand goes to the same spot? Also, if you cross your hands wouldn't it make it easier to press in the middle and trap it?

I believe that in chinease a chung choy = sun fist. Which is basically the standard wing chun vertical fist which strikes w/ the whole hand primarily the bottom 3 knuckles?

Also, what is the importance of the threat zone, and how can that affect a fight situation?

Thanks Again,

vdiddy

[Vdiddy]

o sorry one more question,

Why isnt Wing CHun as popular as TKD? I know my next question you guyz must get a lot but im curious. Do you feel Wing Chun is more effective then TKd and if so why?

[Adam]

Isn't it just because TKD was there before, has better organization, better advertisement and is more mainstream than Wing Chun?

[YODA]

TKD looks more like the stuff the kiddies see in the movies & want to emulate.

[tai-gip]

well technicaly with the pak sao situation u can block and strike
eg as the pak makes contact with the elbow/wrist the other arm strike in whatever chosen fasion then the pak becomes say a tan sao or garn strike or use a khan sao strike
as per bil gee one arm is the simultanious block and strike the other arm and legs are there because the dont want the striking hand to feel lonely:D

[YODA]

There are 4 principal lines for Lin-sil-die-dar (simultaneous block & strike)...

Inside & Outside
High & low
Against the lead / rear

In the pak-sao basics (loy-pak and woang-pak) here is very little chance of the arms getting trapped.

[Kuen]

TKD looks fancy and has lots and lots of colourful belts. Also, it has been established for a long while in Western countries.

[Vdiddy]

Hey,

What part of the hand do you strike with and why is the hand loose? If you hit with the bottom three knuckles wouldnt you break them since the bottom two are the weakest? What is the degreee bend in the forearm after the punch has been fully extended? Thanks guys.

Vdiddy

[CKava]

The hand stays loose in Wing Chun just up to the point of impact, upon which time there should be a certain snap or flick of the wrist/hand which flicks the bottom of the fist onwards and upwards and gives it a snappy little impact. I find it hard to describe motions accurately in words but I heard it once described as punching someone in a way that would knock there (imaginary) hat off, assuming your hitting them in the face off course (and I think its a pretty good description).

The reason for staying loose in general with the punch is because then your not simply relying on strength- a nice big, strong punch that tenses up all your muscles feels better to YOU than a loose punch but a punch doesn't necessarily have to feel satisfying to you to be effective, its how it feels to the other person that matters. A Wing Chun punch gains its real force right down from the legs and hips up so its the full force of your body rather than just the force of your arm which is used to throw the punch- but this would be pretty hard to achieve if you just had a big straight stiff arm (thats not very useful for gathering momentum).

And as for the bend in the forearm Id say its a pretty substancial bend at the point of impact- and the elbow would still be pretty low, but when the punch is finished then its not too far of a fully extended arm; just enough bend left to not make it an easy target to break. So basically Im referring to hitting through someone rather than just hitting them; if you fully extend your arm just before the point of impact, it will hurt the other person but not the same way it can if your full force carries on through them.

Hope some of that makes sense, I might add that what I just said isnt the undeniable truth its just my own understanding of why a Wing Chun punch is kept loose (but Im perfectly prepared to be proved completely wrong) :)

[Vdiddy]

Thanks ckava, that was very informative. I have a few more questions, however. I don't fully understand the flicking motion of the fingers at the end of the punch. Do the fingers tense up just before you make impact, or do they remain loose throughout the punch. Also, punching to face normally causes much pain in the knuckles, at least it does for me. Why does Wing chun really, then so much on punchin to the face rather then other parts? If performed correctly, is a Wing CHun punched meant to not give the user and pain in his knuckles?
Thanks for answering my questions.

Vdiddy

[AgentX]

The closest target to the opponent's body is the chest.
So think that if someone tries to hit the other to the face, and the other hits him on the chest...The one striking on the chest will hit first.
In my opinion the chest is a very "closed" target ,if you think of the stances in most systems, but the face is more "open".

[Vdiddy]

Agent x obviously you dont understand body mechanics very well. The closet area to the opponent is the face. Stand up and glide your hand down along your body you will discover that your chin is further out then your chest.

[YODA]

Originally posted by Vdiddy
Agent x obviously you dont understand body mechanics very well.

[CKava]

I think most martial arts tend to put a good bit of focus on hitting people in the head not just Wing Chun. And it makes sense; your brain and your eyes are in/on your head so its a pretty good target to aim for. I can personally testify that being hit right up the nose with a Wing Chun punch can equal severe disorientation, a bloody nose and watery eyes, so like I said it seems a good thing to hit. You might just notice in Wing Chun that the head is targeted alot because your chain punching directly along the centerline- but that doesnt mean you always must hit someone in the face (Just if the opportunity is there...). As for it hurting your hand; thats to some degree a matter of conditioning and to some degree a matter of experience and practice, hitting bone will always hurt though (I imagine...)

Oh and Vdiddy just from my own experience the snap in the Wing Chun punch is very awkward at first but it gets more natural through practice, it can be just a little frustrating though. To practice you could try touching a punchbag/sandbag with your fingers outstrecthed and then performing a Wing Chun punch without pulling back (i.e. last 3 knuckles make contact). As for it being tense or loose- i think its hard to classify maybe Id say the fist is tensed at impact but the overall punch remains loose? Thats about as good as I can explain it.

[fluffydoc]

Originally posted by Vdiddy
Agent x obviously you dont understand body mechanics very well. The closet area to the opponent is the face. Stand up and glide your hand down along your body you will discover that your chin is further out then your chest.

I didn't. But then, I'm female.:D

[AgentX]

No i don't think so...
you have to raise your hand about 20-40 degrees to reach the chin felow.

[tai-gip]

i guess it would be different based on each individual and the training partner/attacker based on size,sex and stance

[KungFuGrrrl]

Re: one post that talked about WC not training against other styles, I agree that is a must to train against other styles.

At my school we do; we will have Wing Chun stylist vs. boxer - TKD, plain old street fighting (where the guys swings wildly...) grappler, etc........... and it is an experience I must say!

[CKava]

Originally posted by KungFuGrrrl
At my school we do; we will have Wing Chun stylist vs. boxer - TKD, plain old street fighting (where the guys swings wildly...) grappler, etc........... and it is an experience I must say!

That sounds like a very interesting, not to mention practical way of training. What school do you attend and what (if any for that matter) lineage/style of WC is it, if you dont mind me asking? And do you actually get people from other styles to come and train or do some of the students practice these other styles?

[AgentX]

WC stances, moves and stracture are made in that way that the
WC fighters atacks cannot be use by his opponent against him(the WC fighter) by MA such as AIKIDO.
Ther are also techniques, special against kicking systems such as TKD.
Farthermore WC has grappling and antigrappling moves.
;)

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by AgentX
WC stances, moves and stracture are made in that way that the
WC fighters atacks cannot be use by his opponent against him(the WC fighter) by MA such as AIKIDO.
Ther are also techniques, special against kicking systems such as TKD.
Farthermore WC has grappling and antigrappling moves.
;)

Whoah AgentX

Let me take that before you get flamed.
Someone may have told you this, but go check it out for yourself.
Go try WC theory against Grapplers, Kickers and Aikidoka. Not just beginners, but people well up on the system.

I'm not saying you are wrong, the theory is all there. It just needs put into practice a bit more often ;)

[Vdiddy]

I would say that I agree, to a certain degree w/ agent x. I am a blackbelt in Tae Kwon DO, training for 4 years, and I just recently got into wing chun. When using wing chun defenesives and strikes subtely in my tae kwon do classes I have found them to be very effective. However, I still cannot vindicate that Wing Chun is the most affective fighting form. As an instructor once told me all street fights involve 80% luck, 15 % intenstiy, and 5% skill. Through the martial arts we are trying to tip the 5% as well as a little of the 15% to our favor.

Vdiddy

[AgentX]

Hey! Even the simplest move needs practice to be affective.
But to be a good street fighter you need more.
In WC we train even against strikes, to the groin...
In TKD, kickboxing the donot train this way.

[CKava]

You sure about that Agent X? Have you ever trained TKD or Kickboxing? Just because certain things are banned in competitions doesn't mean that martial arts that have tournament/competition aspects to them aren't aware that they exist. I also believe that Wing Chun is one of the most effective martial arts but I dont see why its necessary to put down other styles just because I think that.

[Vdiddy]

Ckava does have point about not putting down other styles, but it seems ignorant for people to practice ineffective styles and then boast about there strength in fighting. Also, as forementioned in a fight between a gun and the martial artist the gun always wins. So, the modern martial arts are, I guess more for sport and self defense in nonweapon scenarios.

[Vdiddy]

Another quick question? What lineage of Wing chun is the best? I'm apart of the Wing chun do system and we dont even start doing Chiu Sau until like a year or so of training.

[AgentX]

Yes CKava I have trainned in TKD so I know how theypractice.
TKD is a SPORT and not a MA ,in most schools.
Wile Kick boxing is sport by nature...

[AgentX]

Traditional TKD for example might be a very affective MA.
But sport-TKD...


And Vdiddy...Every thing has it's time and place.
Chi sao needs time to start with because it needs a sertain level of skill.

;) :D

[Greg-VT]

Originally posted by Vdiddy
Another quick question? What lineage of Wing chun is the best? I'm apart of the Wing chun do system and we dont even start doing Chiu Sau until like a year or so of training.


If the lineage is importent to you, then just do your own research.

Asking a question such as this is likely to get you some biased, and possibly untrue (according to other factions) answers.

Just do your own research mate, and try not to take anyones 'word for it'.

The best results are the ones you find yourself.

[Aravi]

Does the question of 'best Martial Art' have an answer :P

Recently been partaking in a forum debate on that topic (Muay Thai is the best vs 'the is no best'). If you want to come in I can post a link.

Personally, I'm studying Wing Chun and am enjoying it - only started about 4 months ago but it's been enjoyable.

I do value the forms myself, I can see where some of it is applied in the practical techniques. It's also nice and relaxing - I can foresee myself using the Sui Nim Tao for breaks as I study for my approaching exams.

[AgentX]

WE ALL LIKE WING CHUN!!!!!!!!:love:
:woo: :D :woo: :love:

[CKava]

Could someone explain to me why if a martial art has a sporting or competitive aspect it no longer becomes a practical self defence? Muay Thai is a sport but I daresay a knee or an elbow to the head in the ring hurts just the same as it does if your out in a street. Ill accept that point sparring isn't the same as a real fight but I think that most people that take part in it and similar sorts of activities realise this. They aren't expecting some referee to disqualify someone for making to much contact out in some bar! BUT what competing in these ways does do is make you train more and generally if nothing else become fitter... which wouldn't exactly damage your self defence potential as far as i can see. I think as with everything the effectiveness of the style is ultimately down to the individual; hence why it seems a bad idea to make generalisations about other styles...

Phew- feel free to ignore the previous rant at your own discression.

And Vdiddy I didnt really start Chi Sauing for about 6 months after I started and I would have to say their seems a certain wisdom in learning to walk before you can run- that being said Chi Sau is fun and you only really improve when you do it lots... (whys there alwasy pros and cons!)

[AgentX]

For example ,in TKD there are rules that MAKE you learn to fight
in a specific way.You cannot punch the other to the head.
You learn to fight at large distance with the oponent.
You learn to fight to score and not to rely hurt.
The last goes also for other similar styles.
In Mui Thai they don't strike to the neck or the groin, in kickboxing
they don't strike with elbows or knees.
In both styles they don't use direct front kicks against the legs.

[Vdiddy]

Thanx guys. Well Agent X, I agree that TKD has a sport like nature but it can still be effective. I have a blackbelt in TKD and I am not going to throw away all of my training. I however feel, thatt its not that TKD is ineffective the way its taught and the corruption in it is unbelviable. Its a very militant martial art. If you want to read more on my arguments against it follow this link

http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5832&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

I discuss whats wrong w/ TKD and in my next post, whats good about Wing Chun. Its very long, so I hope you have time!!!

Also, I have another question, why don't we practice sparring in Wing Chun?

[Aravi]

Where I train, some sparring does occur, but the focus isn't really on it.

My general impression is that the idea is to develop your techniques before you learn to apply them in combat.

[AgentX]

Sparring is for advanced students , maybe to prevent injury.

[CKava]

We spar in the Wing Chun club I attend, so I guess it just depends on the individual schools. But even if your school doesnt spar that doesnt prevent you from arranging to spar with some willing partners, which I would recommend- it certainly wont do you any harm (as long as you have nice partners of course).

I still dont quite understand your point though agentX... I learned to control my hits in Wing Chun so that I dont have to smash my partners face everytime were practicing something, so how does that differ from restraining kicks in TKD? Are you suggesting the only real way to train is to use full contact and full force ALL the time? And you mentioned... In Mui Thai they don't strike to the neck or the groin, in kickboxing they don't strike with elbows or knees.In both styles they don't use direct front kicks against the legs.
As I previously said I cant disagree that there are rules in competitions but can you see that just because someone does something in the ring doesnt mean they are not capable of anything else outside the ring? Im not meaning to argue I mean obviously your very into Wing Chun but I just dont see the need to point out flaws in other styles.

There are plenty of impractical Wing Chun practitioners and plenty of impractical TKD practitioners and so on... but its not the style thats really at fault its down to the individuals, so why generalise about styles?? (Unless its tae Bo;))

[SoKKlab]

Originally posted by AgentX
In Mui Thai they don't strike to the neck or the groin,
In both styles they don't use direct front kicks against the legs.

Wrong!
In the Ring Rules of Muay Thai Groin strikes are dissuaded, but they do happen alot.

As for the neck-are you kidding?, clinchwork is all about controlling the head neck shoulders and body to batter the hell out of it, including the neck.

And in the Trad Muay Boran (the Fighting art side of the thing), strikes go wherever you see fit.

[AgentX]

I am talking about the sport form of those arts...
The average human that practices those styles doesnot learn to fight realistic.
Every MA can be taken to the street.
But I believe If a MA is not made "ITSELF" to be a street competitive then... it is not so easy to be made like that by a student...
On the contrary WC is an art that was made for real fighting,like street fighting.
I don't say Mui Tai is not good for SF, but it is not usually taught to sameone that way.
Well it is a little complicated. :) :)
Think about it ... ;)

[Vdiddy]

In Wing Chun why do we work on quick snapping sting punches rather then a strong powerful pivot punch? Is it quicker and or more effective?

[white_sash]

im thinkin of taken it up at the same place hanchard does it.
do wing chun practitioners have grading systems/uniforms?

[CKava]

There ARE strong pivoting punches in Wing Chun as well as quick jabbing ones (the pivoting movement is emphasised quite strongly in the Chum Kiu form) not to mention that if your really hit by a proper 'quick snapping sting punch' it feels powerful enough (or at least it has in my experience) :)

As for grading systems/uniforms it really depends on the school. Some are very structured, some very loose and the same goes for gradings. At my own club we have maybe 2 gradings a year and a club T-shirt but it isn't organised particularly rigidly, BUT I know that systems like WT (Leung Ting's schools) are apparently very organised especially in relation to gradings. Not that one ways better than the other it just will really depends on what your looking for...

[white_sash]

ok thanks m8 :D

[Vdiddy]

Hey its me again,

So, how do you do Lin Sil Die dar w/ Pak Sao? When ever I do it, I either 1. Block my own hand or 2. I'm not able to get the punch out quick enough and the attacker resumes his guard.

[CKava]

Could you describe the motions of Lin Sil Die dar, Im not familar with the term? (Maybe theres a picture of the movement somewhere you could point me to :))

[Vdiddy]

Lin Sil Die Dar is basically chinease for (a rough and not exact translation) simaltaneous block and counter. I know how to do it with tan sao, guan sao, and die jong but not paak sao. See up for my problems

[tai-gip]

vdiddy when you change gaurd thats the pak sao punch motion 9one of) the forward had makes pak sao contact and withdraws as the rear hand punchs.. this is one of the attacking uses for pak sao

[CKava]

Vdiddy theres a good lot of information regarding simultaneous blocking and striking with a Pak Sao back on page 4 of this thread that might be of some help to you...

But that aside hitting your own hand and not being fast enough are just matters of practice and experience.

Just dont be hard on yourself- its not possible to immediately be capable of applying every technique, if it was everyone would pick up martial arts in a day or two and you dont see that very often!

[Anonymouse]

Sorry about going back so far in this thread, but I didnt see anyone else mention this...

The (main) reason the fist is loose until the moment of impact is because your body is able to move much faster when your muscles are relaxed and not clinched. Tai Chi uses the same concept when doing movements. The wrist is snapped at the end to (not only add the snap obviously) but to add the forearm strength into the power of the punch, giving the punch an extra 1 inch or so of movement. As for pivoting, Wing Chun uses the same concept of pivoting as most other styles, just not as extreme (enter the ecomony of motion). If you've ever seen a proper "1 inch punch" (not the 1 inch PUSH done by many sifu in demonstration), you will see the full rotation of hips and shoulders, as well as the snapping of the wrist.

Um, lets see... oh and the pak sao block/strike...

I only do this technique when the opponents is attacking one of my lower gates, otherwise I get my hands running into each other. I usually wont do a pak sao as you are describing for an upper gate attack, unless Im going to be using the same hand for the strike. Also, you could trying slapping the punch downward with the pak sao at the opponents wrist, circling your hand around and forcing the attack outward. This works to open the opponent up for a leg kick, sternum/solar plexus strike, or you can step in for the takedown since you already have one of their arms.

Anyway, just some suggestions :)

[Vdiddy]

Thanks you guyz, both of your info helped. How important is Sil lum Tao in training? Ive also noticed that wherever I got, and whatever book I look I always see different variations of the form. What is the correct way of doing Sil Lum Tao and why do we practice the form?

[Aravi]

The different variations of the Sui Nim Tao are all valid. As it got passed down by each instructor, it changed slightly.

Forms are the foundation of the system, they express the principles and ideas the system is based on and contain many of the hand techniques you will use.

[Gandhi]

Wazzup wazzup, wing chun rules.
Went a sparrin' with ma karate homies..and could they handle it - ah dont think so!
Makin a kung-fu club at Edinburgh uni..lovinit

Does anyone know anything about the third form. It is a mystery to me, as I have never seen it. Does it contain some kind of special move? Obviously not fire-balls out yer arse, but something along those lines. My flatmate from Hong-Kong says he had this Sifu where he could hit melons, leaving the outside intact and turning the inside to mush.

Reading "Bruce Lee - Fighting Spirit" by Bruce Thomas right now.
Is it just me, or does he seem like a total hooligan (in his younger days anyway)!? Cant mess with his skills though.

Interesing reading through what you guys think about sport and self-defence. I think its unfair to compare between martial arts intended for sport and those intended for "street defence". There is no clear cut difference however :-s
It all depends what you want from your training ie what kind of person you are!

I just hope people that do a sport such as Karate arn't misled into thinking that they could defend themselves from someone who has had 5 beers and is intent on punching their head to kingdon come. ****cue Wing Chun****

I have been doing karate/judo/ju-jitsu for years, and only after some months of wing-chun do I feel confident enough to defend myself in a sticky situation ***cue chi sau***

I dont claim to know much about lineage/specific techniques/philosophy, but for all practical situations, this is indeed a most excellent martial art.

happy wing chunning.

Andy G

[Greg-VT]

Yeah good book. One of the first I read (on BL). Seems pretty up front and honest.

[Vdiddy]

Why do we use such weird stances as Open and Closed Bai Jong? How do you move with those stances and how can they help you wit power? How can I develop my calf muscles to handle open and closed Bai Jong? Thanks guys.

[Gandhi]

Dont know much about stances. I find it good to just bounce on your toes to strangthen calf muscles. This should also make you more mobile in combat.

[Qc_Sylvanio]

the best defense, it's the attack!

[Vdiddy]

Anyone know of a good Wing Chun teacher in Michigan?

[CKava]

Originally posted by Vdiddy
Why do we use such weird stances as Open and Closed Bai Jong? How do you move with those stances and how can they help you wit power? How can I develop my calf muscles to handle open and closed Bai Jong?

Damn, Apparently I could really do with improving my knowledge of Wing Chun terminology, I might be able to help but what are Open and Closed Bai Jong exactly? Im afraid the names I know are along the lines of neutral, left fighting stance, right fighting stance and so on...

Still I would say that although the stances may originally seem pretty awkward they are in fact very practical once your confident/comfortable in them. Just recently Ive been practicing with Tae Kwon Do people and unexpectedly Ive found the basic Wing Chun stance to be a very protected form. Not moving in a 'bouncy' way I've also found does not in any way limit mobility and in fact I think its a more useful way to move for Wing Chunners because it means you are always 'grounded' when attacking (therefore able to use the full force of your body rather than just the momentum of your limbs).

Something that might help with any advice Vdiddy is how much weight does your style put on each leg? Is it mostly on the back leg or 50/50 or something else?

[Gandhi]

I agree with being grounded when attacking, but to feel grounded I would say that you first have to be bouncy.
Its important to be grounded but not rigid. (like a tree blowing in the wind ananlogy...)
I also have no clue with terminology

[CKava]

Well come on folks, the Wing Chun thread has been quiet lately... We need to get some discussions going again (Or Ill have to start doing those essays instead of slacking off on the internet!). Anyone got any topics up for discussion? Oh and just a wuick question, I was curious if anyone here practices a Wing Chun style with a 50/50 weight on each leg stance? I must confess total ignorancy on the subject being a back leggy person, but Id be very interested to hear about it if anyone in a style that practices it...

[white_sash]

i have a topic,
have any of you heard of the "stupid trap" as randy williams refers to it as?

[CKava]

Nope whats he referring to?

[white_sash]

well, i touched on it last lesson so this is a very new thing to me
basically its where person 1 punches
then person 2 bong saus the punch and then pulls person 1's attacking arm down out of the way grabing on to it
then person 2 goes to punch person 1 with his other "free" arm.
person 1 uses his other "free" arm to wu sau person 2's attack
then person 1 pulls person 2's attacking arm down and using the arm that is already being held down from person 2's previous bong sao, he latches on to person 2s other wu saued arm.

this may be hard to understand but basically its meant to leave person 1s left (or right) arm free while the other person is unwittingly holding on to person 1's unfree arm and person 2s other arm is being held by persons 1s unfree arm.

so person 1 can be boxing away with his free arm, but person 2 is traped up because his natural insticnt is to latch on, when to get out of the lock, all he has to do is stop grabing on to person 1s arm.

thats why he calls it the "stupid" trap:D

[Anonymouse]

Thats called 'trapping' in general. I dont know where the 'stupid' part came in. A lot of kung fu styles use trapping, and it plays a big role in Wing Chun and Mantis styles. There are a lot of techniques in which to trap an opponent, my favorite (and most practiced) being the one you described. After the bong sao, I usually circle my fist around to a backfist to the opponents face, while giving the grabbed arm a little twist as well as a jerk. Most of the time I dont need to trap the other arm when I apply a twist to the arm.

Another trapping technique I like is sometimes called 'baiting'. One fighter will lead in with an attack that they expect to be blocked (if its not, all the better!), so that they can trap and ensure a solid hit. A good bait is a ridge hand strike to the temple (ie right hand to right temple). This way, the defender will block with their right hand. You circle your hand at the wrist and jerk the arm to your outside exposing their rib area or face. If they get a block off on the second attack, then proceed with the trapping by blocking and pulling their left arm to your left outside over their other arm.

Trapping takes good forearm (grip) strength to do well, especially when you are trapping someone bigger than you. J yimm Lee's book Wing Chun Kung Fu has a bunch of good examples of trapping.


And for CKava's question about stances. I think most Wing Chun stances are 50/50, except the side riding stances which are typically used for dodging/blocking blows. These stances look almost like a cat stance, so the weight is more like 80/20 with more on the back leg. Personally, when sparring, Im in a right horse, and my weight is a little to the front.

[CKava]

And for CKava's question about stances. I think most Wing Chun stances are 50/50, except the side riding stances which are typically used for dodging/blocking blows. These stances look almost like a cat stance, so the weight is more like 80/20 with more on the back leg. Personally, when sparring, Im in a right horse, and my weight is a little to the front.Thats very interesting anonymouse, I agree that there is a lot of Wing Chun practice performed in a 50/50 stance (such as the whole first form) however I and everyone I train with always adopt a side stance (which we call the fighting stances!) when sparring so my weight is as you say about 80/20. I prefer this stance because i find it to be a muchmore defended stance than any of the 50/50 ones. In this fighting stance I can for instance use my lead leg to block by simply lifting the knee- which is extremely effective/useful for defending against and getting inside kicks. How do you usually deal with kicking in the stance you adopt?

[Anonymouse]

Well, usually I dont have to defend against kicks, because it seems that Im the only person I know that likes to use them regularly in sparring. When practicing, Ill pivot my arm at the elbow and give them a knife hand strike to the instep or lower shin. Against a kick to the mid section (torso area) Ill step in catching the kick then sweep the standing leg. Sometimes I like to add an elbow or forearm strike to the face while Im sweeping.

[CKava]

How would you deal with quick powerful low kicks like the ones in Muay Thai aimed for the sides of the knees or lower?

[Anonymouse]

Id just get out of the way, or kick their instep or knee as the kick is coming in. Or if I was feeling particularly lucky, Id lunge in with a backfist and take the kick as it would hit with the thigh. You really dont have to worry too much about kicks unless your sparring or in a tournament or something. Id say 90% of fights dont include a kick unless someone is on the ground. I say 90%, but Ive never seen a fight where someone kicked.

[OblivionsAvatar]

Hey guys I am a newcomer to Wing CHun transferring out from Tae Kwon Do. I have a question, or rather a few questions. Whats the best place to look on the body when your trying to read your attackers techniques to block. How do you simalueanout block and counter with pak sao? How loose should a chung choy (fist) and why is it loose? Thanks guys for answering

I know this was a few pages back, but im slowly reading through them and found the few answers below it to be different to what I've been taught.

As for where to look for the attackers technique so you can block it, we look at the rear elbow, because (try it) you cant move anywhere or throw anything without that bloody elbow moving. NEVER look at their eyes, that messed me round so bad when I started out (bloody blue sashes would go to throw a punch, then just stop...and i would fall over trying to block a punch that never came....ergh...)

The block with pak and punch at the same times been answered, and the keun (fist, or hand) is lose because of the chi that flows through the punch. Its a little hard to explain when your a beginner, but you will understand it later. Look up some stuff on the net about the one inch punch, thats the way every punch should be, the way everything is lose, including your hand, gives you that snapping movement to punch THROUGH the target, not just hit it.

EDIT: ok about 7 pages back...my bad

[OblivionsAvatar]

Oh and just a wuick question, I was curious if anyone here practices a Wing Chun style with a 50/50 weight on each leg stance? I must confess total ignorancy on the subject being a back leggy person, but Id be very interested to hear about it if anyone in a style that practices it...


I just looked at the date of the last post before mine, and it was at the end of last year...so yeah the thread has been a little quiet lately.

Also, I use a 50/50 stance (William Cheung lineage), and find it to be very comfortable. But then again ive never tried any other stance...and i cant see the plus side to anything other than 50/50, where you can move forward and backwards, left and right, as soon as you could move in any other direction..ah well, this subject has been yelled at and debated over for years, and im not about to open up another can of worms

[KungFuGrrrl]

training with muk chong is going to help build good defense against punches.
It builds speed and agility. fast hands, fast feet, quick pivots
If you are fast with your techinique and agile, you have better chance at deflecting a punch,- deflect/ strike. Of course Im not saying you dont need to work with others...... only giving my opinion "can training in wooden dummy help defence against punching?"

[Kenshin Himura]

My training is 99 % wooden dummy and I think it helps a lot ,but you also need sparring.

[Obi]

right i just started my first wing chun class with paul smith and he was taking us through the first form. now if anyone who knows the first form off by heart (and i guess a good few of you might) could you right it down for me step by step if thats not to much hassel.

id really like to be able to practise this at home instead of just my weekly class

[KungFuGrrrl]

I wrote it myself as I watched another perform it. It helps you to remember.

[jimmytofu]

right i just started my first wing chun class with paul smith and he was taking us through the first form. now if anyone who knows the first form off by heart (and i guess a good few of you might) could you right it down for me step by step if thats not to much hassel.

id really like to be able to practise this at home instead of just my weekly class

Try - Wing Chun interactive (http://www.wingchuninteractive.com/)

[Obi]

I wrote it myself as I watched another perform it. It helps you to remember.

well if you would care to share what you wrote that would be helpful :)

id write it myself but its kinda hard when the enitre class is doing the form along with you


jimmy :- cheers for the link mate very useful

[Bil Gee]

I just looked at the date of the last post before mine, and it was at the end of last year...so yeah the thread has been a little quiet lately.

Also, I use a 50/50 stance (William Cheung lineage), and find it to be very comfortable. But then again ive never tried any other stance...and i cant see the plus side to anything other than 50/50, where you can move forward and backwards, left and right, as soon as you could move in any other direction..ah well, this subject has been yelled at and debated over for years, and im not about to open up another can of worms

I'm in the opposite position in that I've never trained with a 50/50 stance, I've always trained with all the weight on the back leg. I'm not going to get into a debate about which of the two stances are superior, but I can give you one of the reasons behind having the weight on the back leg, as I understand it. It allows you to kick with the front leg very quickly, and if done properly your opponent won't have any visual cues about the kick because your upper body won't move at all. It's also a good discipline to stop you from over-commiting yourself with strikes.

[Topher]

I'm in the opposite position in that I've never trained with a 50/50 stance, I've always trained with all the weight on the back leg. I'm not going to get into a debate about which of the two stances are superior, but I can give you one of the reasons behind having the weight on the back leg, as I understand it. It allows you to kick with the front leg very quickly, and if done properly your opponent won't have any visual cues about the kick because your upper body won't move at all. It's also a good discipline to stop you from over-commiting yourself with strikes.
It also gives you balance as well. If someone pushed you you'll be "grounded" enough to absorb it.

[EternalRage]

There's drawbacks and strengths to both.

For 50-50, as Bil Gee stated, to make any move, you have to shift your weight, which can telegraph your motion. But then depending on the situation, this may be an advantage, in that you are not committed to a single direction and do not need to readjust your weight, much like the way a tennis player is ready to receive a serve. Tennis players, if you watch closely, do something called a split step before recieving a serve, which is basically a hop to evenly distribute weight on both feet.

For any stance which has weight committed on a certain side or in a specific fashion will have benefits much like the ones that Bil Gee mentioned. And again, depending on the situation, it may end up being a disadvantage having to readjust weight - the fraction of a second spent may end up being inefficient and possibly dangerous.

Of course, there is no "one stance" for all situations. Every stance has its place, much like techniques do - there is no "one technique for every situation," but there are some techniques for a given situation that are much better choices than others. Same with stances. The only constant would be that choosing only one stance, no matter what it is, will eventually be disadvantageous, whereas adapting to the situations as they come and being versatile with all your stances is much better.

[Existence]

Checking in...

[Bjoern_VT]

if your hips are trained well you actually do not have to shift weight... I mena technically you do have to shift, however you do not move your upper body in a way that you telegraph your kick...
This "hip power" is the same that you use to generate force in your punches as well as for your whole structure
If you stand only on one leg you loose the whole stablised position... anyway this discussion is as fruitless as all of those so forget about it
Just my five cents!

[kungfu_charlie]

if your hips are trained well you actually do not have to shift weight... I mena technically you do have to shift, however you do not move your upper body in a way that you telegraph your kick...
This "hip power" is the same that you use to generate force in your punches as well as for your whole structure
If you stand only on one leg you loose the whole stablised position... anyway this discussion is as fruitless as all of those so forget about it
Just my five cents!
do you know any where i can see the hip power demonstrated

[Bjoern_VT]

Not too close to you. The only student of "my" line that I knw in England is Desmond Spencer in London.

Desmond Spencer
London




Winchester Road Swiss Cottage NW3
London
UK

+44 (0)2087767705

I have not met Des personally yet, however I heard lots of good stuff from him. Just give him a shout, or get in contact with him in Philipps Homepage's Forum (www.philippbayer.com)

Oh, obviously, the hip is just one of the major parts, to keep this kind of body control... The whole body structure must be trained also....