Reports of Invincibility

[Kiai Carita]

Assalaamu'alaikum,

There is a wierd thing happening in Sulawesi involving silat and trance I thought I would share with the pendekars on this forum. It is taken from various Indonesian media (jawapos, tempo, kompas and Liputan6)

In a tiny village up the mountain Gawalise out of Palu in Sulawesi, a young man named Ariffin, 32, a silat teacher, declared himself to be Mahdi and forced villagers to join his sect. He taught silat and a return to what he called adat, and that before they are holy, Muslims were forbiden to sholat or fast and Christians were forbidden to go to Church or pray.

Some villagers refused and reported Mahdi to the police. Policemen came to investigate but were surrounded, three were killed and several taken hostage, they escaped later badly wounded. The police found poisoned arrows, blow-pipes, spears and parangs in the village which the sect abandoned. Now many have surrendered because of hunger and are in police protection but the Mahdi himself is still hiding in the jungle with a huge search looking for him.

It was reported that when the police came to investigate the report of the sect, Mahdi and his followers fell into trance and began performing silat moves. Before they realized what was goiing on in a flash three policemen were dead. The other law enforcers fled after firing shots and finding that the sect members were invincible to bullets. Right now the search is still going on.

Wassalam,
KC.

[TheSanSooStorm]

Invincible to bullets, or else they missed while shooting. I believe that due to abilities developed by those demon possessed or influenced, one can do very supernatural things, perhaps in a superior mindset, but a evil superior mindset. Thats just my opinion I submit, please leave religion debate out of this, thats what I think.

So 1) I question the liability of where this report came from.
2) Question if there is an explaination for why this supposed happening seemed to be supernatural.
3) If the above was solved, and it would seem to be a liable report, than I`d suspect demonic forces.

As for number 1, where did you hear this from?

[Garuda]

I also read about this raid of the police in the Jakarta Post (english newspaper) (see www.thejakartapost.com). But what I read was that also a few members of the Mahdi sect were killed by police bullets.

To my knowledge the PS group Debus from Banten are entirely focussing on these kind of things and I heard the things they demonstrate are quite awesome. Things like they make krupuk in hot oil, but they do this with their bare hands. Cutting themselves with knives, etc. They entirely focus on the mental spiritual aspect.

Garuda...

[MasJudt]

These things are often easily deconstructed. They probably 'purify' with water before putting thier hands in hot oil - it's called the leiden frost effect. Look t up. I personally put my hands in molten lead without damage - no meditation, no allah, no demons, whatever...

If the police didn't slaughter these fools,they were very poorly trained.

[MasJudt]

These 'mysterious' abilities are always 'somewhere else' or witnewwed by somebody, or viewed first hand by someone unfamiliar with such tricks.

And tricks are what they are...

[sulaiman]

[QUOTE=MasJudt]These things are often easily deconstructed. They probably 'purify' with water before putting thier hands in hot oil - it's called the leiden frost effect. Look t up. I personally put my hands in molten lead without damage - no meditation, no allah, no demons, whatever...

The leidenfrost effect would explain it if their hands were wet, but we dont have this snippet of information.

On the other side , i have seen Silat debus do some pretty weird stuff with meat skewers etc.
Back to the boiling oil and I have personally done the boiling oil test ( mandi minyak ) several times , never with wet hands and have been pleased at my lack of burns , we often cooked chicken in the pan afterwards and it was always well done.

In Islam it is a common knowledge that fire does not burn , knives do not cut , water does not get you wet etc - the cause and the effect are subject to the divine decree and can be altered at any time
peace

sulaiman

[CQC]

[QUOTE=sulaiman
In Islam it is a common knowledge that fire does not burn , knives do not cut , water does not get you wet etc - the cause and the effect are subject to the divine decree and can be altered at any time
peace
sulaiman[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that's a part of the tasawuf isn't it? I've been thought that "It is not the doctors and medicines who cures you, but it is Him who does the job, the doctors and medicines are only our effort". Am I right :confused: ?

[tellner]

I don't buy it. If there were techniques that made people invincible to bullets they would have spread throughout the world by now. It didn't work for the Boxers. It didn't work for the Ghost Shirts. It didn't work for the Malays when the Silat was supposedly purer and the Dutch, Portugese and English came in.

It's the same sort of mythic BS that crops up from time to time.

And no, I don't buy the argument that it's because their faith in G-d is stronger. Lots of people have strong faith. It doesn't prevent them from having all sorts of terrible things happen to them, much less from suffering the consequences of something dumb like standing in front of a bullet and hoping you won't get punctured. If the Almighty wants to do something He/She/It will for His/Her/It's purposes.

[sulaiman]

Yeah, that's a part of the tasawuf isn't it? I've been thought that "It is not the doctors and medicines who cures you, but it is Him who does the job, the doctors and medicines are only our effort". Am I right :confused: ?

salaams & Hi all
yes thats right , there is cause and effect, that is the "everyday" sensory/mental viewpoint from the physical binary world of duality ( yin & yang, life & death etc ) - I take medicine I get better because of the reaction of the intrinsic qualities of the medicine with the physical stucture of my body.

One step removed from cause and effect and you can see the causer of causes, the encompassing pattern within which the so called objective laws of nature function and occasionally dramatically do not function ( what we call miracles)- in tasawuf this is stated as- There is no power other than His -
I'm not concerned with disputing this, you either see it or you dont.
and for me the deeper I get into my silat the clearer it becomes - its not a muslim thing or a christian thing , its just .....the way it goes down.
peace

sulaiman

[sulaiman]

QUOTE=tellner]I don't buy it. If there were techniques that made people invincible to bullets they would have spread throughout the world by now. It didn't work for the Boxers. It didn't work for the Ghost Shirts. It didn't work for the Malays when the Silat was supposedly purer and the Dutch, Portugese and English came in.

It's the same sort of mythic BS that crops up from time to time.

hi there Tellner,

i suppose I can cross you off my list of potential Invincible snake charm customers !
i know where youre coming from but in my opinion its not a technique that makes people invincible to bullets , its a will.
And its not our will -

Sorry to go back to this but in my book it IS a question of faith, and faith does not mean that you will avoid suffering, on the contrary as the Messenger of Islam , peace and blessings be upon him and his family and supporters throughout time, said in response to someone who declared their love for him and for Allah -" then prepare for hardship and suffering".

Its easy to love God when things are going the way your ego wants them to , the proof of true love is in its endurance whatever the circumstances.
This is why all the Prophets went through tests - to demonstrate this spiritual principle - hardship and struggle and the forbearance and patience we endure them with, brings about self knowledge and control.

in my research the people I have encountered who have been rendered " bullet proof " for that instant that a bullet touched them were not at all concerned whether they lived or died- they were absolutely resigned to the fact that their life or death was a predestined factor absolutely out of their control - and had given up their pretense / illusion of control and delivered their confidence into the hands of the causer of causes.

This for me is real faith, doing what you have to do , but giving up attachment to the idea that the result is under your control.
You just do it because its your duty and your purpose- that is the code of the warrior.
To serve

peace
Sulaiman


And no, I don't buy the argument that it's because their faith in G-d is stronger. Lots of people have strong faith. It doesn't prevent them from having all sorts of terrible things happen to them, much less from suffering the consequences of something dumb like standing in front of a bullet and hoping you won't get punctured. If the Almighty wants to do something He/She/It will for His/Her/It's purposes.[/QUOTE]

[tellner]

I agree with most of what you say, Sulaiman. The part that sticks in my craw is the idea that one's faith can coerce G-d into doing something that He does not want to do. First cousin to shirk in my book. If He wants "the mountains to dance and the hills to skip like lambs" they will. If He doesn't, they won't no matter how much you pray for them to.

The other part is the way that this can go. Whenever something goes right it's a sign that your faith has been rewarded. Whenever it doesn't it's a sign that your faith wasn't strong enough. I've seen people devastated when they lost loved ones to disasters and terrible diseases. The, well, the TOS won't allow me to fully express myself, people who gathered around them told them that if they only prayed hard enough their child would be delivered or the storm wouldn't hit. Can anyone doubt that little children raped and murdered by monsters in human form pray as fervently as anyone in their last hours? I nearly crippled a friend who suggested that it was only because their faith wasn't strong enough that they weren't rescued.

So yes, faith is very powerful. I believe we both see our job as having faith, doing what He commands and not being attached to anything except love for the Beloved. G-d can do anything. But it's just impossible to accept the ratchet mentality that comes about when people start believing that they can make G-d do what they want and look smugly down on those who suffer misfortune in this life. The false friends of Job come to mind.

[sulaiman]

Salaams Tellner,
I think we are in agreement amigo.
I do not believe that faith can " coerce " god into anything - for me that is not faith , who are we to put what we want before what god wants -you are right in thinking it is " hidden Shirk " , for faith is to be happy with his decree and to have a clear understanding that everything is created on truth and wisdom.

The fact that our subjective ego perspectives conceal that truth from us with the veil of their own desires and prejudices does not negate its existence.

I too have lost loved ones but never thought of it as a sign of weak faith -merely that it was a sign that it was those loved ones appointed time to leave us here -

I cant remember who wrote it , but for me the situation is summed up as this - in accordance with the divine decree , it is the human who must adapt to the divine will , not the other way around.

peace

[tellner]

Hammer. Nail. Bang. :)

[Kiai Carita]

Invincible to bullets, or else they missed while shooting. I believe that due to abilities developed by those demon possessed or influenced, one can do very supernatural things, perhaps in a superior mindset, but a evil superior mindset. Thats just my opinion I submit, please leave religion debate out of this, thats what I think.

So 1) I question the liability of where this report came from.
2) Question if there is an explaination for why this supposed happening seemed to be supernatural.
3) If the above was solved, and it would seem to be a liable report, than I`d suspect demonic forces.

As for number 1, where did you hear this from?

Salaams Pendekars,

The story has developed now, most of the Mahdi's supporters have surrendered to the police and they report that Mahdi himself has been shot twice in the leg. He is now hiding up a volcano with some supporters.

Warm salaams to all,
KC

[Ular Sawa]

Sounds a bit more reasonable now that the story has developed.

[MasJudt]

These sort of fantsies always end badly for those foolish enough to beleive them.

[Ular Sawa]

Would have ended a whole lot worse if the dreaded Indonesian Special Forces were after them, instead of cops.

[MasJudt]

I can only imagine...