Martial Arts styles that are better for women for Self Defense? {Split from Stories} [Archive]

Matt_Bernius

24-Oct-2005, 01:36 PM

There aren't many styles that are better for women!! Most martial arts - karate, jiu jitsu, kickboxing, tae kwondo produce women martial artists of good quality. However, put them in a ring with a male opponent of equal training and they would get beaten. It's not sexist, I have just seen it time and again. There may be some exceptions but I have yet to see them.But there is a significant difference between an officiated prearanged fight and a self defense situation. I can find alots of excellent examples of women from different martial background successfully defending themselves (and unsuccessfully as well).

The general rule, the more "live" resistance training in a system, the better prepared it's practitioners are to defend themselves. Again, training methodology is FAR FAR FAR more important than technique.

I am not trying to promote my own art, I am just saying that wing chun was designed specifically for women.No. It wasn't. It was designed for close contact fighting and assasination as it was a revolutionary art. The entire nun story is a founding folktale/legend. A good one, but more and mroe martial historians are calling it into question (Benny Meng is one, but there are a number of others). Like Hung Ga and many other arts at the time, it appears taht Wing Chun was developed as an "in-house" fighting style for a revolutionary society.

It is one of the only arts [ed. I know of] where use of the hips and the lack of strength vs. strength play a huge part, which is perfect for the female of the species I had to insert that edit, because it belies a misunderstanding of numerous arts where the hips and positioning come into play. Others include, but are not limited to Ju Jitsu, BJJ, Judo, Tai Chi, Ba Gua, Xing Yi, most CMA, FMA, need I go on? :-)

That's not a knock against Wing Chun, which I think is an excellent art, and can definitely be used for self defense. Just simply, I agree with what Jesh said, any well taught art with a contemporary focus can be used for Self Defense.

- Matt

KickChick

24-Oct-2005, 02:07 PM

I'm part of that group of women trained in TKD.... but throughout my 12 years of training I've also supplemented the self defense training I receive in TKD with self defense training designed specifically for women for violent crimes that are directed towards us such as rape..

If your martial art includes these specifics (does Wing Chun? ) well, then I guess you don't need to look any further.

Matt is right on the money with "training methodology is FAR FAR FAR more important than technique"

Playful Giant, you talk about putting a woman in a ring with a man and chances are she will be beaten. We are not talking competition here. We are talking personal defense. When a man attacks a woman, he either wants her money, her life or her body. The nature of the conflict is quite different.

Playful Giant

25-Oct-2005, 07:30 AM

No. It wasn't. It was designed for close contact fighting and assasination as it was a revolutionary art. The entire nun story is a founding folktale/legend. A good one, but more and more martial historians are calling it into question (Benny Meng is one, but there are a number of others). Like Hung Ga and many other arts at the time, it appears that Wing Chun was developed as an "in-house" fighting style for a revolutionary society.- Matt

Actually, it was originally designed for an extension of shaolin kung fu because some monks struggled to topple their bigger opponents. It was then altered by Ng Mui to suit her needs as a female.
It was mistaken as being designed to topple the Emperor's armies in hand to hand combat and hence one of the reasons why the temples were destroyed

I had to insert that edit, because it belies a misunderstanding of numerous arts where the hips and positioning come into play. Others include, but are not limited to Ju Jitsu, BJJ, Judo, Tai Chi, Ba Gua, Xing Yi, most CMA, FMA, need I go on? :-)- Matt

What I meant was that Ju Jitsu, etc still uses a lot of tension. Although strength is not meant to be used (unless you have a lot of it!!), it can be a very rigid art. Wing chun is a very relaxed art. Tai chi is a good example, but without offending any tai chi masters, I would never dream of using it to fight off an attacker! Judo has no finishing moves and I have destroyed many Judo fighters because I let myself get thrown and then dragged them down with me!! BJJ is the same. There are no realsitic finishing moves in it. They are sport based arts. Very good arts (I do them myself), but they are dangerous to use outside. If I grapple with someone, it's only a matter of time before his/her mate comes and kicks me!! I am not trying to have a pop at other arts - I just think it's important to steer away from what arts should be used for. There are many links on MAP saying that wing chun should not be used for cage fighting. I agree. But the energy can be applied. Similarly, I would never reccomend even world class Judo or BJJ fighters using just that to fight someone off in a realistic defence scenario. My apologies to all of these practitioners (it is not meant as a criticism)

reikislapper

25-Oct-2005, 10:27 AM

Actually, it was originally designed for an extension of shaolin kung fu because some monks struggled to topple their bigger opponents. It was then altered by Ng Mui to suit her needs as a female.
It was mistaken as being designed to topple the Emperor's armies in hand to hand combat and hence one of the reasons why the temples were destroyed

What I meant was that Ju Jitsu, etc still uses a lot of tension. Although strength is not meant to be used (unless you have a lot of it!!), it can be a very rigid art. Wing chun is a very relaxed art. Tai chi is a good example, but without offending any tai chi masters, I would never dream of using it to fight off an attacker! Judo has no finishing moves and I have destroyed many Judo fighters because I let myself get thrown and then dragged them down with me!! BJJ is the same. There are no realsitic finishing moves in it. They are sport based arts. Very good arts (I do them myself), but they are dangerous to use outside. If I grapple with someone, it's only a matter of time before his/her mate comes and kicks me!! I am not trying to have a pop at other arts - I just think it's important to steer away from what arts should be used for. There are many links on MAP saying that wing chun should not be used for cage fighting. I agree. But the energy can be applied. Similarly, I would never reccomend even world class Judo or BJJ fighters using just that to fight someone off in a realistic defence scenario. My apologies to all of these practitioners (it is not meant as a criticism)

Hi there, I may not be a tai chi master as I'm only a beginner in this style and when we do pushing hands we have the chance to use some of the techniques in tai chi. They are very effective as a self defence move I assure you, I've had a go with Taiji Butterfly and he got me on the floor with one as I didn't see it coming, (he's going to love this one lol). I had another go seeing that I'm a glutton for punishment and I said that I was going to let him floor me as I wanted to see how he'd been so crafty in getting me down. I didn't think tai chi was any good for the self defence but I've been proved wrong as I'm not one to give into anyone who's trying to get me on the ground, I don't play lol.
There is something which is lacking in some clubs though and I'm not having a go at any of the teachers in here ( honest ;) ). There isn't enough ground fighting being taught to women cos when your on the ground you can't really do much can you apart from kick out and if your put on your front then you lose in most cases. I would love to see that there would be a few changes within clubs to chancge this no matter if they are the softer side of Martial arts or not.
lisa xx

Playful Giant

25-Oct-2005, 11:02 AM

Hi there, I may not be a tai chi master as I'm only a beginner in this style and when we do pushing hands we have the chance to use some of the techniques in tai chi. They are very effective as a self defence move I assure you, I've had a go with Taiji Butterfly and he got me on the floor with one as I didn't see it coming, (he's going to love this one lol). I had another go seeing that I'm a glutton for punishment and I said that I was going to let him floor me as I wanted to see how he'd been so crafty in getting me down. I didn't think tai chi was any good for the self defence but I've been proved wrong as I'm not one to give into anyone who's trying to get me on the ground, I don't play lol.
There is something which is lacking in some clubs though and I'm not having a go at any of the teachers in here ( honest ;) ). There isn't enough ground fighting being taught to women cos when your on the ground you can't really do much can you apart from kick out and if your put on your front then you lose in most cases. I would love to see that there would be a few changes within clubs to chancge this no matter if they are the softer side of Martial arts or not.
lisa xx

I did tai chi for a while and to be honest found no practical application with it. It is still an extremely good art to learn as it helps develop strong stances and positive energy. However, take it down a pub on a Friday night or against multiple attacker and it is useless.

Kamon Wing Chun is very effective as it trains you in the soft stuff (forms, chi sao) and drills in the combative stuff (feeding techniques, drills, etc).

The women who do it are very good at holding their own and they punch very hard!!

Matt_Bernius

25-Oct-2005, 01:53 PM

I did tai chi for a while and to be honest found no practical application with it. It is still an extremely good art to learn as it helps develop strong stances and positive energy. However, take it down a pub on a Friday night or against multiple attacker and it is useless. I've worked with very good Tai Chi men who could clear a bar without a problem and very poor people who couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag. Same with people in just about every art including Wing Chun.

I know you're very proud of Kamon. But I think that we've had very different experiences interacting with other arts. Perhaps thats because we've worked out with people of very different skill levels or learned from different teachers. I have to say that comments like BJJ has no finishing moves and that all you'll do is roll around on the ground untill you get stomped is a fundimental misunderstanding of the art. Or perhaps it's just the way that you've been taught it.

Look, we're taking this in the wrong direction. Kamon sound like a wonderful wing chun program, but that's as much because of a great teacher than the art itself. I've met other great teachers in a wide variety of arts and I think any of them can teach a woman good self defense. Perhaps, instead of concentrating on the art, we should concentrate on what to look for in a good self defense teacher.

Continuing to debate "which art is best" is just taking this thread far off course.

- Matt

Playful Giant

25-Oct-2005, 02:12 PM

I've worked with very good Tai Chi men who could clear a bar without a problem and very poor people who couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag. Same with people in just about every art including Wing Chun.

I know you're very proud of Kamon. But I think that we've had very different experiences interacting with other arts. Perhaps thats because we've worked out with people of very different skill levels or learned from different teachers. I have to say that comments like BJJ has no finishing moves and that all you'll do is roll around on the ground untill you get stomped is a fundimental misunderstanding of the art. Or perhaps it's just the way that you've been taught it.

Look, we're taking this in the wrong direction. Kamon sound like a wonderful wing chun program, but that's as much because of a great teacher than the art itself. I've met other great teachers in a wide variety of arts and I think any of them can teach a woman good self defense. Perhaps, instead of concentrating on the art, we should concentrate on what to look for in a good self defense teacher.

Continuing to debate "which art is best" is just taking this thread far off course.

- Matt

Not at all. Kamon has flaws just like many arts out there, but it tries to be a complete system. In that sense, no matter what the circumstances it makes you aware of how to get out of it. Whether it be sparring, grappling, close quarter fighting, knife attacks, etc. We train the soft side and the hard side

I was not trying to insult Tai Chi as like I said I know some very good practitioners who have a lot of power. One of my friends was in a bar with me. He had done Tai Chi for 11 years. Someone grabbed him and he couldn't do anything!! The way they implement their moves does not usually include grapples!!

When I said that BJJ has no finishing moves, I meant that in competitions you cannot use punches, eye strikes, elbows, knockouts, etc.
Of course you can use bar arms, chokes, etc, but while you are trying to implement these, someone could join in the fight!!

I was trying to relay the fact that wing chun was a very very fast way of getting rid of an assailant for a female victim

Su lin

01-Nov-2005, 12:06 PM

I started Shaolin Lau Gar a while ago, not with the intention to use it as self defense as an end in itself. As the only woman in my club, I always spar against men, which has helped me to get an idea of what it would be like fighting off an attacker.
What it has helped me with is strength and also agility- I may not be able to punch or kick the men very hard, but I can usually get out of their way and also get in to attack quickly. I'm not at that stage where fighting comes naturally yet, I was away in London last week and thought I was going to be attacked by a guy who pushed me, then realised I was talking on a mobile so he ran off. I'm not sure what I would have done if he had attacked me , apart form panic!
I have found that I am far more confident walking round on my own- I keep my head up and try and look confident! ;)

Johnno

01-Nov-2005, 12:31 PM

Not at all. Kamon has flaws just like many arts out there, but it tries to be a complete system. In that sense, no matter what the circumstances it makes you aware of how to get out of it. Whether it be sparring, grappling, close quarter fighting, knife attacks, etc. We train the soft side and the hard side

I was not trying to insult Tai Chi as like I said I know some very good practitioners who have a lot of power. One of my friends was in a bar with me. He had done Tai Chi for 11 years. Someone grabbed him and he couldn't do anything!! The way they implement their moves does not usually include grapples!!

When I said that BJJ has no finishing moves, I meant that in competitions you cannot use punches, eye strikes, elbows, knockouts, etc.
Of course you can use bar arms, chokes, etc, but while you are trying to implement these, someone could join in the fight!!

I was trying to relay the fact that wing chun was a very very fast way of getting rid of an assailant for a female victimWing Chun doesn't include grappling either. That's why at Kamon they teach some BJJ as well, to complement it by adding some groundwork.

I think that a number of the attributes which you state make Wing Chun ideal for women can also be attributed to Taiji.

Obviously I don't know anything about your friend, but I would hazard a guess that the reason he was unable to deal with his assailant in the bar had more to do with him than with his MA. I don't mean that he is not skilled, but maybe he froze or something. Believe me, Taiji in the hands of an experienced practitioner is a very effective MA. (Even if it doesn't include grappling! ;) :D )

Matt_Bernius

01-Nov-2005, 01:08 PM

The plain fact of the matter is that any art that has a high degree of resistive training and (no way to mamby-pamby this) hitting/getting hit in the way it is taught is going to be an excellent start for anyone interested in learning physical self defense.

As M. Musashi suggests in the Book of Five Rings, physical confrontation is about spiritual dominance first and foremost. Yes weapons may make it easier to make up for the gap, but as many have discovered in all walks of life, it's possible to escape through even the smallest gap.

Training resistively (and the experience of getting hit and getting up) helps one understand what they can do. To use a familiar phrase, it develops the fighting spirit. And having that spirit backing up a mediocre technique is far better than having excellent technique backed by no spirit.

The problem for many is that they are not willing to get hit and train in that fashion because it hurts (both physically and the ego) at times.

- Matt

KickChick

01-Nov-2005, 01:23 PM

Playful Giant

02-Nov-2005, 07:59 AM

Women must also bear in mind that the chances of you having to defend yourself against someone who is your "style" is remote, so it is important to train in other ranges and other styles to be successful at defending yourself

I personally found in my training that it is necessary not to develop a bias towards any style. Increase your chances of successfully defending yourself by cross training in several styles or arts.

"when the only tool you have is a hammer, everything else begins to look like a nail."

Exactly. I like wing chun because it suits me, but as I have said it is not right for everyone. I fill in the gaps using BJJ, Tai boxing, karate, boxing and kickboxing.

Women must be careful that the art they do is not strength based. There are some types of karate out there where strength dominates, and other types where it is the skill you build up over time.

If women wish to do a martial art, I would advise looking at the other women in the dojo/training hall and seeing whether they can pull off good defence (rather than it being a McDojo).

Topher

02-Nov-2005, 01:40 PM

The general rule, the more "live" resistance training in a system, the better prepared it's practitioners are to defend themselves. Again, training methodology is FAR FAR FAR more important than technique.
I agree, but a style that doesn’t include a range you would likely come across, clinch/close quarter training for example, or maybe emphasises on techniques not ideal for street level defence isn’t going to provide as much efficient training no matter how live it is. At the range many street level situation happen some techniques would be like bringing a rifle to a close up pistol fight.

The point being the way you train and the skill of the teacher can be great, but if the techniques are risky and not ideal then you’re not learning efficient material for your needs.

I think what is needed it realistic techniques (the sort you would actually get on the street – hooks, holds, grabs etc. And if a technique is not going to be of use, why train them) combined with training them alive.

I agree with PG comment on strength. If you base your training on strength the stronger person will win, and lets face it, whats the chance of a women being stronger than her attacker.

Playful Giant, you talk about putting a woman in a ring with a man and chances are she will be beaten. We are not talking competition here. We are talking personal defense. When a man attacks a woman, he either wants her money, her life or her body. The nature of the conflict is quite different.

I can’t agree more, which is why for self defence you need to look at styles which have self defence as there focus. If sport plays a big part, it it ideal for self defence when you have to split your training? I would like to try out BJJ one day, but in no way to I want to train to the rules of sport. I want it so I can safely get back on my feet asap or control someone on the ground if I really have to.

Killbot

02-Nov-2005, 02:06 PM

Styles, arts....

I think this defeats the purpose of selfdefense...not entirely. Don't misunderstand my point. I'm not taking a swipe at formal arts and styles.

Selfdefense is not stylistic and should not, I repeat should not be something that needs extensive, consistent training. Under stress, most training goes out the window anyway, and your back to the gross motor skills and instincts anyway.

Most styles rely on a certain type of general body mechanic that must be developed over time with practice.

This tells me one should concentrate their efforts on fighting very, very dirty, learning some soft spots, some ways to relese a grip, awareness and use of environment, and some very basic grappling and distancing.

(read above as: thumbs in the eyes; carry a stungun; stab 'em with car keys in the cheek and eyes; grinding on their throat with a heel or knuckle; a good basic knee to the groin standing, on your back or above them; turning your wrists against the attackers thumb to release a grip, swimming your arms to make them let go of clothes; smashing them in the head with a trashcan lid or empty bottle thats lying in that dark alley; checking escape routes very first; learning to shove you away from them; good foot placement for balance
so as not to get trapped on the ground; and learing to break and run, terribly fast ; etc... Note no real muscle power is needed for any of this.)

My theory on selfdefense is brutality, not technique or training. You gotta be nastier than the nasty thing attacking you wanting to do nasty things.

Like KickChick said, its not a competition.

Martials arts have their place, but they are rarely self defense or mortal combat oriented. Not true across the board, but true in general.

Thats my lightly informed opinion. :)

Slindsay

02-Nov-2005, 02:16 PM

Hmm, I think that any art which trains properly and cultivates a proper attitiude among it's female practitioners (An attitiude of awareness as to their disadvantages when compared to men but also their own abilities to overcome them) Should be excellent.

Johnno

02-Nov-2005, 02:23 PM

Killbot,

I think you made some very good points there. I like the one about developing a few simple but effective (and vicious!) techniques for self-defence. Those could be stuff you've thought of yourself, or equally they could be things that you've learned through an MA class. But the important thing is that either way you have to practise them until they become second nature. So that you eliminate that thinking time, that hesitation.

At our class we learn a huge range of different techniques. But our teacher stresses that they are MA skills, and not self-defence. Not that they don't work, but that you would need a lot of developed skill and experience to use them in a real life self-defence situation.

The techniques which we are taught specifically for self-defence on the other hand are very few in number and very simple in execution.

Su lin

02-Nov-2005, 03:14 PM

Good points about strength training etc. Practising kung fu, I am finding out what my weaknesses as a woman are, but also beginning to find my strengths , this is something my teacher is also really good at pointing out. Training with men really does give a good idea about what strength I would need if attacked, but as someone mentioned, it isn't really useful unti fighting becomes second nature.
I'm used to training hurting and also to getting hurt when training, and a fighting spirit is definitely useful!
There is some really good advice here , thanks! :D

Johnno

02-Nov-2005, 04:03 PM

Practising kung fu, I am finding out what my weaknesses as a woman are
What weaknesses do women have in MA? That they are generally smaller than men? Well small men have the same disadvantage against bigger men.

If we learn techniques which rely on strength then we will be at a disadvantage when we come up against someone of greater strength. That applies to everyone equally.

On the other hand, if we learn techniques which rely purely on speed and skill and not on strength, then why should women be at any disadvantage at all? The head of my system is quite a slightly built man, but he can generate far more force than most men twice his size. It's down to great technique developed over years of practise, and mastering an art that utilises body mechanics rather than muscle power.

KickChick

02-Nov-2005, 04:09 PM

Playful Giant

03-Nov-2005, 07:19 AM

Everyone who begins their training in the martial arts, eventually realizes their personal strengths & weakness' whether they are male OR female, I don't believe gender plays an importance in choice of style.

Exactly. There are women in wing chun who are good, but similarly there are women in tai boxing who are good. I think it is important for the person doing the training to make the most of what they have.

Saying that, I do still believe that there are arts out there that women find easier to use (quicker to put into practice)

Jesh

03-Nov-2005, 06:36 PM

There aren't many styles that are better for women!! Most martial arts - karate, jiu jitsu, kickboxing, tae kwondo produce women martial artists of good quality. However, put them in a ring with a male opponent of equal training and they would get beaten. It's not sexist, I have just seen it time and again. There may be some exceptions but I have yet to see them

Sorry for the late reply, but I seem to have missed the splitting of this thread. :)

As for my reply... you stated that:

I would reccomend wing chun for women as it helps people fight a stronger / bigger opponent

My reply was:

So do many other systems/styles... let's not use this opportunity to promote our own thing.

You specifically say in your first post that WC helps people fight a bigger/stronger opponent. My reply to that was that more styles deal with the same issue. JJ is one of the first examples that come to mind, but as we all know there are far more options to choose from.

The problem with the statement at the top of the page is that you say:

"Put them in a ring with a male opponent of equal training and they would get beaten.""

However, we are not talking about a ring based situation... this is about self defense. In most cases, if there's a male attacker against a female defender... it is probable that the attacker will have superior size and strength anyway. So it's about simple and effective techniques.

The main issue is getting away from the threat as soon as possible, without sustaining injuries. (if this is an option...)

I am not trying to promote my own art, I am just saying that wing chun was designed specifically for women. The women who go to our federation give us guys a good run for our money! It is one of the only arts where use of the hips and the lack of strength vs. strength play a huge part, which is perfect for the female of the species

Sorry didn't mean to offend you, but it caught my attention and I didn't want to let this thread derail into a style VS style situation. It's an important topic.

Su lin

03-Nov-2005, 09:28 PM

I didn't mean that my weaknesses are specifically because I'm a woman fighting against men. It's true, we all have strenghts and weaknesses- my teacher is the same height as me (5"7) and he uses it to his advantage ! I think what I meant was, that when it comes to pure strength, women aren't always as strong as men, and that I'm finding it really useful finding out how much strength is required to fight a man , which would be useful if I was attacked. :rolleyes:

MissBehavin

03-Nov-2005, 10:14 PM

I do not know if it is true but the person who throws an effective first strike has the best chance of winning?And I can remember of a really bad case where a Man or more like animal would rob Women in a real horrible way!He would walk up and kick Women hard in the groin and when the Women hit the ground he would walk off with there purse monney etc. :woo: Talk about injury to insult!HEshould do hard time for that!!But he never got caught!? But as far as style I like kickboxing it seems to work good for me.But some martial arts I looked at seemed like a new-age cult like than martial arts?But maybe I am wrong?

Topher

03-Nov-2005, 11:58 PM

You specifically say in your first post that WC helps people fight a bigger/stronger opponent. My reply to that was that more styles deal with the same issue. JJ is one of the first examples that come to mind, but as we all know there are far more options to choose from.

However, we are not talking about a ring based situation... this is about self defense. In most cases, if there's a male attacker against a female defender... it is probable that the attacker will have superior size and strength anyway. So it's about simple and effective techniques.

There are many suitable arts for women, but remember that many women might find it uncomfortable to get into grappling or being physical so i think the point about WC is that it uses relatively natural, simple movements. It doesn’t rely on brute strength so a woman can pick it up very quickly, which means it dosn't take long for it to be appliable. There is some stuff that you can literally use after the first lesion.

Jesh

04-Nov-2005, 12:07 AM

There are many suitable arts for women, but remember that many women might find it uncomfortable to get into grappling or being physical so i think the point about WC is that it uses relatively natural, simple movements. It doesn’t rely on brute strength so a woman can pick it up very quickly, which means it dosn't take long for it to be appliable. There is some stuff that you can literally use after the first lesion.

I totally agree Homer, but same can be said for JJ (remember JJ doesn't only consist of grappling, but of many self defense techniques), Krav Maga and others. I think it depends on the individual which art suits them best.

So I think it's a bit premature to say that WC is the best art for women.

chasleeuk

04-Nov-2005, 02:14 AM

Topher

04-Nov-2005, 02:30 AM

I think BJJ would be great for women to take in addition to some striking/close quarters training.

Playful Giant

04-Nov-2005, 07:19 AM

styles which allow good technique to overcome superior strength, something like BJJ!!!

i think BJJ is good for women because it concentrates on groundwork, women shouldnt be fighting in the first place, they should run away always. In the unfortunate situation that they get taken down to the floor (in a rape situation), they need to have the best technique to get out on top and escape.

I cant think of a better system that is more suitable for escaping the ground and getting in a superior position to escape than BJJ. A common misconception that grappling is all about strength, rather its more to do with technique and correct leverage (although strength obviously helps of course!). Good techniques allow a smaller guy to beat the bigger guy.

Its all well in theory telling a woman to hit eyes, groin, throat and then run etc...but its not always possible to do in reality, rather reality might mean being able to survive once taken to the ground after being ambushed by a rapist.

I agree that BJJ is very important to learn as a self defence. However, you must remember that most women don't really want to wrap around or get close to guys. Guys attacking women for sex or to kidnap them will grab them and force them around. BJJ is extremely suitable to help escape.

On the other hand, if they show you a knife or approach a woman, then you don't really want to initiate a grapple. Although its not a strength based art, it is very very hard to grapple someone who has strength. I have seen tournaments that have gone on longer than they should have because one person was using strength while the other guy was waiting for his opponent to release

BocaDeCalca

17-May-2006, 05:28 AM

Re: Post#2

Right about mid-way someone grabbed me from behind, in a bearhug like grab. As I was being pulled into the woods I started screaming and tried frantically to wiggle free. As much training as I had, there really wasnt much I could do when being lifted off the ground. He put me down and shoved me against a tree, I stomped on his foot and tried to heatbutt back into his face.

This Passage reveals a fundemental flaw in modern women's "self defense" programs. They are too often based on the "dirty tricks" ideal, positing that learning a number of "dirty" techniques (eye gouging, headbutting, groin strikes, etc.) will allow you to escape an inferior position (in this case, an opponent who has your back).

Unfortuenately, the woman in this story learned the same thing that many early UFC competitors learned: "dirty tricks" do not beat superior position and athleticism. Also, many attackers do not respond to pain based techniques.

Contrast that with training in a full contact, probably grappling based art, like BJJ, Judo or even wrestling. Someone (usually a stronger, more skilled person) having your back and attempting to lift (and throw or choke) you is a common, almost daily occurence. The woman who trains in that manner will have superior defensive skills from that position because she will have been put in that position hundreds of times and have ACTUALLY GOTTEN OUT, not against someone who's playing a role or a space suited dummy who is guessing at how he should react to your techniques, but a man who is actually trying to physically dominate you. In addition, you will gain the neccesary strength and athleticism which will help you survive in such a situation.

This point is beautifully illustrated in this clip (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52379&highlight=thornton) where matt thornton and one of his coaches demonstrate alive drilling from under a headlock hold down/kesa gatame (15-25 minutes in I believe).

Then he leaned up against me with his body to hold me against the tree, he grabbed my hair and pulled my head back, and thats when I felt the knife against my throat. He told me to shut up and I stopped yelling....

So many scenarios played out in my head about all the different things I could do to try to get away, try to disarm him. I was able to stay somewhat calm, and unfortunately, that is the only way that my martial arts training helped me. I was able to run through all the possible situations and realize that the only way for me to have a good chance of surviving, would be to stop fighting.

And I did.... And I'm alive.

And at this point we realized that this woman's martial arts training, particularly it's reliance on "dirty tricks" like headbutting and stomping has probably failed her and gotten her raped. Would the outcome have been different if she'd trainned in the way I outlined? Maybe. No technique or person is fullproof. However I am convinced that if she'd trained in a competitive grappling art, she would have had a far better chance of escaping the initial attack.

Note also the presence of the knife, something many "reality based/self defense" programs train to have viable escapes from.
...but rather than second guess myself, and my training, I've come to the conclusion that I did the right thing,...

Finally, this passage deserves further attention. While i'm not doubting that, given her abilities, this woman did the right thing, I do believe her training failed her and deserves to be questioned. In fact, I believe that her instructor has a lot to answer for as to why the techniques s/he taught her failed so miserably under pressure.

Matt_Bernius

17-May-2006, 01:03 PM

My issue with the above responses is the assumption that most Women's Self Defense programs rely on "drity tricks." For the last year or two I've been surveying them, and to my pleasure, I've found that most of the local ones in my area don't. There's a pattern that I've noticed with these:

1. They're multiweek
2. They're taught by someone with certification in a RBSD or Rape Prevention Program.
3. They all stress basic striking and grappling skills.
4. They address the notion of eye shots and "too deadly" as panaceas. They realisitical note that they may work to create an opening, but you can't rely on them to stop the situation.
5. These courses focus first and foremost on awareness skills.

The courses, ironically, that stress "dirty techniques" have typically been one day courses taught by individuals who have TMA training, but haven't completed a Rape Defense or other self defense training.

What I'm trying to say is that I think the cynical view that all modern Women's Self Defense sucks just doesn't work. Some does. However, if you begin to survey actual programs (vs. internet guides), you'll find that more fit the resistance rubric than you think.

- Matt

tellner

17-May-2006, 03:53 PM

tellner

17-May-2006, 05:57 PM

Hmm. I feel validated after reading this story:

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=local&id=4179853

BocaDeCalca

17-May-2006, 11:19 PM

As I've said a few dozen times, it's a matter of time and the students. If you have them twice a week for three years and everyone is in decent shape you can turn them into hellacious fighters. If you've got twenty to forty hours and a real mix of body-types, fitness and comfort with violence you just have to do the best you can.

Then perhaps the idea that we can make signifigant gains in self defense ability in a twenty hour course is wrong.
That being said, six months to a year should not be too long to see signifigant improvement in functional fighting skills.

Grappling and ground work are important aspects of self defense, but they aren't a cure-all. And the way they are taught for MMA competitions - which seems to be what you're recommending - presents serious weaknesses for women's self defense.

I would contend that, while not perfect, it is a better form of training than the vast majority of "reality based" programs.

Here's an example. There are many.

What is the goal in a MMA competition? Submission. You get a lock, a choke or enough ground-and-pound until he gives up. Then you stand up, embrace, and it's all over.

This reveals either a signifigant misunderstanding of what grappling is all about or possibly deliberate obtuseness on your part.

The first thing a BJJ student learns is "position before submission", that is working your way out of a bad position and into a good position. In fact, i'd venture to say that BJJ white belts will spend the majority of their time working on positional techniques, techniques which *physically move you out of harms way*, rather than relying on striking or "dirty tricks" which the opponent may or may not respond to (in the case of the woman in this story,he did not). Again, as per the example in the video she will have actually gotten out hundreds, thousands of times.

In fact, I would venture to say that the majority of grappling time is spent on positional work. Working for/on subs is maybe 25% of training time.

This is infinitely superior to a program that relies on guessing at how an opponent's reactions from inside a space suit (and after speaking with IMPACT suit guys, that is exactly what they do) or even worse, choreographed routines or even aikido style "randori" where you do the same thing but in the center of a circle of people.

A submission just doesn't make sense for self defense. Should a smaller weaker woman have to lie there holding onto a heel hook or arm bar until the police come by and tap her on the shoulder?

See the Grappling FAQ:

Q: Submissions are just for sport. In real life no one taps out so how can you use grappling in a fight?

A: Submissions are generally not pain based. Many submissions will seriously injure, cripple, or even kill the opponent if actually finished. Chokes and strangles will render them first unconscious and then dead. This is the reason why people tap out.

I submit that causing maximum structural damage in the minimum time should be the goal in this sort of program. It requires some serious retooling like "Don't think of it as a lock. Just break it and move on."

This doesn't seem like a huge leap to make. Once you've tapped people out many times, I doubt that it will be a huge transition to crank that extra few inches and break the arm...This, however, is still beside the point.

A lot of the technique is useful. The training is excellent. But a short term self defense program is different than a competition sport no matter how applicable or hardcore the sport is.

I am questioning the idea of short term self defense courses being useful.

In a well-run class the "dirty tricks" serve a couple important functions.

First, when used judiciously and without relying on them as magic talismans they can increase one's efficiency. When you are dealing with a larger, stronger, more experienced assailant (typical for women's self defense situations) this is important. A good hard head butt is more effective at close quarters than a punch.

Yet a headbutt proved pretty innefective for this woman!

That's why it's illegal in boxing.

That's a false assumption. "It's illegal in [x combat sport], therefore it works". Combat sports often ban retarded techniques because it presents a better public image.

I've seen people knocked out and with hairline skull fractures from a single good one. The Sublime Meditation of the Four Exquisite Verbs - Grab, Squeeze, Twist, Pull - isn't a bad one to go for if he's getting his wedding tackle out for use.

It's NOT a substitute for good positioning skills. It is a SUPPLEMENT to them.

The spine and back of the head aren't legal targets in MMA competition.

They are illegal in SOME MMA competitions, but not all or even the majority.
They do have their uses (striking from neck clinch or under guard) but again, that relies on having superior positioning. They are, for instance, useless for defending a takedown.

But in self defense they should be primary ones.

The issues is not of "targeting" because it doesn't matter what targets you strike from under a pin, you're unlikely to cause damage.

Second, they are useful for the one of the most important parts of self defense, disinhibiting the students and making them readier for violence. If you get them to the point where they are ready to punch someone you have accomplished something useful. If you get them to the point where they are eager to tear the guy's head off, beat him to death with it and steal his wallet and rings afterwards you've accomplished something more useful.

I would submit that actually doing violence (IE combat sports) is a suitable substitute.

Making some of the viler stuff normative helps the process. It also allows you to gauge their progress. When they stop looking horrified or giggling nervously and accept this sort of thing as matter of fact they have made some real progress.

But have you accomplished anything if these women have no functional delivery system? Does it matter how willing they are to poke out an eye or headbutt if they can't escape mount?

The woman in this story came up against that reality and found that her willingness to do violence was out of sync with her actual ability to do it.

tellner

18-May-2006, 09:50 AM

Then perhaps the idea that we can make signifigant gains in self defense ability in a twenty hour course is wrong.
That being said, six months to a year should not be too long to see signifigant improvement in functional fighting skills.
Nope. Wrong. Not even. Use your search function. We've gone over this. The most important single part of effective self defense is earnest resistance. Those who fight back, even without any training, reduce the rate of completed crimes from about 90% to about 20%. And I've done the literature review to show that. You can get significant improvements in a short time for that purpose. The hard part is figuring out what will best serve your students, not your own ego, in the limited time you have to work with them.

I would contend that (grappling), while not perfect, it is a better form of training than the vast majority of "reality based" programs.
On what do you base that other than you like submission wrestling so it must be best? It's one of a number of useful skills. The reality-based programs include ground work. They include a certain amount of grappling. But they have to deal with the whole situation, so they don't get tunnel vision. Saying "Do half a million escapes from the guard, mount and side control and you'll have great self defense skills" simply isn't true. It will give you an answer to one specific set of situations. It won't necessarily develop the attributes and skills that are most important for preventing the completion of a crime.

This reveals either a signifigant misunderstanding of what grappling is all about or possibly deliberate obtuseness on your part.

The first thing a BJJ student learns is "position before submission", that is working your way out of a bad position and into a good position.

Nope. I don't grapple much any more. But I wrestled, did Judo and spent some time at a very good grappling gym. The goal of "position before submission" is still submission. Position is a means to that end. And the result you are looking for is pain compliance, making the other guy be reasonable and give up. That makes perfect sense in a match or certain sorts of fight. It is dead wrong for the situations we're talking about.

Let's suppose the defender gets superior groundfighting position and applies a hold or lock. You still haven't answered the question what does she do next. She can't sit there forever. She can't let him up if he taps. If you're going to use your favorite style of submission wrestling you will have to do some serious revision to adapt it to the reality she will likely find herself in.

I'm not nearly as good a wrestler as you are. But I'm not unfamiliar with it. Can you say the same thing about the RBSD people and what they do?

This is infinitely superior to a program that relies on guessing at how an opponent's reactions from inside a space suit (and after speaking with IMPACT suit guys, that is exactly what they do) or even worse, choreographed routines or even aikido style "randori" where you do the same thing but in the center of a circle of people.
Straw man, straw man, straw man. And you should know better.

Were we talking about Aikido cooperative "randori"? No.

Were we talking about IMPACT? No. IMPACT was one of the first programs, but it didn't change, and the state of the art did. Look at what Blauer, Thompson or Messina teach and more importantly how they teach. The padded suit in its incarnations really is important. Until we have a supply of condemned convicts to work on the students will need someone to hit who will be capable of coming back for the next class. I've had concussions, broken ribs, torn muscles, broken fingers and toes and a badly bruised trachea from inside one of the better suits. If you want to have a scared angry woman do her best to hurt you with just your gi, then be my guest. I'll send flowers to the hospital.

This doesn't seem like a huge leap to make. Once you've tapped people out many times, I doubt that it will be a huge transition to crank that extra few inches and break the arm...This, however, is still beside the point.
What you still don't understand is that it's not really about technique. It's about changing the way the student reacts. Effective technique helps, but it's secondary. The will to fight and the ability to hurt someone really badly when it's needed are the essential parts. That few extra pounds of force isn't much in physics. It's an enormous psychological barrier. That's why judicious use of some of the nasty stuff without over-reliance on it as a panacea (which I believe I said several times) is a useful training aid.

I am questioning the idea of short term self defense courses being useful.
And I am saying that they are, especially if you are talking about women who aren't going to spend years pursuing an obscure hobby in a testosterone-heavy environment. Fighting back works. Short term courses increase the chances that you will fight back. The willingness to hurt someone is a rare thing among normal sane human beings. The better courses help the student flip that switch and give them decent high-percentage tools. If that's all they have that's what they'll use.

Yet a headbutt proved pretty innefective for this woman!
Give me a break, and I don't mean arm, leg or neck. One apocryphal story about someone who may have used a back headbutt at the same time as a pain technique isn't even close to a statistical universe. Look at your beloved MMA competitions. The reason the head butt is forbidden in all of them is that it has a very good chance of hurting someone pretty badly when it's done correctly. As I say, I've personally seen knockouts and what I'm pretty sure was a hairline skull fracture from a well-executed one. Look at Holyfield vs. Tyson #1. They were both chugging along until Iron Mike ran into Holyfield's forehead. It really took the starch out of him. Most experienced boxers I've read or talked to say that is where it went irretrievably wrong for him.

Nothing is guaranteed to work. Nothing at all. But some things shade the odds better than others.

They are illegal in SOME MMA competitions, but not all or even the majority.
They do have their uses (striking from neck clinch or under guard) but again, that relies on having superior positioning. They are, for instance, useless for defending a takedown.

I'll say it again and again if necessary. I practice a position-based martial art. Position is a means, not an end. I never said anything about strikes to the spine being ways of defending against a takedown. But any doctor, paramedic or person with half a brain can tell you that strong strikes to the cervical spine and the back of the head are deadly force. Nobody can take more than a few of them without the risk of death or permanent crippling injury. They aren't "lame". It's just reality. And it's an example of how one might fine tune competitive sports for application in a different arena.

Matt_Bernius

18-May-2006, 02:14 PM

I would contend that, while not perfect, it is a better form of training than the vast majority of "reality based" programs.

This is infinitely superior to a program that relies on guessing at how an opponent's reactions from inside a space suit (and after speaking with IMPACT suit guys, that is exactly what they do)Telner's addressed most of this. But I want to explore this one as well. Tell us about your experience with "reality based" training. And please don't bring up one P. Elmore. What reality based programs have you evaluated?

Further, even the famous IMPACT suits have gone through a pretty rapid evolution in recent years to help faciliate better feedback. If that isn't enough for you, there a Blauer High Gear suits that are specifically designed for the highest level of feedback. As Tellner noted the technology and training methods that reality based training programs use have gone through a lot of evolution over the last two decades.

- Matt

BocaDeCalca

20-May-2006, 05:54 AM

Nope. Wrong. Not even. Use your search function. We've gone over this. The most important single part of effective self defense is earnest resistance. Those who fight back, even without any training, reduce the rate of completed crimes from about 90% to about 20%. And I've done the literature review to show that. You can get significant improvements in a short time for that purpose. The hard part is figuring out what will best serve your students, not your own ego, in the limited time you have to work with them.

While that may be true, it seems like a diversion, a way to sidetrack discussion. Even if any type of resistance greatly increases your odds (and I find something instinctually...not right about this idea), it's still not an excuse to teach non functional techniques.

I'm not saying you're completely wrong, i'm simply saying the idea deserves scrutiny/a second look, with applied critical thinking.

On what do you base that other than you like submission wrestling so it must be best? It's one of a number of useful skills. The reality-based programs include ground work.

Experience with the two most important women in my life, my mom and my best friend. I have seen BJJ up their fighting skills many times over in just a few months.

They include a certain amount of grappling. But they have to deal with the whole situation, so they don't get tunnel vision. Saying "Do half a million escapes from the guard, mount and side control and you'll have great self defense skills" simply isn't true.

First of all, that's a straw man. However, as long as you're making a bizzaro-arguement, make sure it works in your non-euclidean alternate universe, because spending hours and hours escaping the mount of a big man who's really trying to hold you down is a wonderful way to learn to defend yourserlf.

It will give you an answer to one specific set of situations. It won't necessarily develop the attributes and skills that are most important for preventing the completion of a crime.

Yeah, because there's absolutely no rape defense applicability to escaping a pin or breaking the arm of a man between your legs.

Nope. I don't grapple much any more. But I wrestled, did Judo and spent some time at a very good grappling gym. The goal of "position before submission" is still submission. Position is a means to that end.

You're still missing the point. The finish, applied from a superior position, is much less important than the act of getting to that position in the first place.

And the result you are looking for is pain compliance, making the other guy be reasonable and give up. That makes perfect sense in a match or certain sorts of fight. It is dead wrong for the situations we're talking about.

Ok, let's go over this one more time:

Q: Submissions are just for sport. In real life no one taps out so how can you use grappling in a fight?

A: Submissions are generally not pain based. Many submissions will seriously injure, cripple, or even kill the opponent if actually finished. Chokes and strangles will render them first unconscious and then dead. This is the reason why people tap out.

Please, let me know if you still don't understand this, and someone will be by to staple a sign that says "please do not give this little boy sweets" to your sweater.

Let's suppose the defender gets superior groundfighting position and applies a hold or lock. You still haven't answered the question what does she do next. She can't sit there forever. She can't let him up if he taps. If you're going to use your favorite style of submission wrestling you will have to do some serious revision to adapt it to the reality she will likely find herself in.

Again, this is a straw man arguement, since i'm not advocating that. However, in this situation, I suggest she crank another few inches and dislocate his shoulder. This isn't complicated, and your lack of understanding makes me wonder where you learned to grapple.

I'm not nearly as good a wrestler as you are. But I'm not unfamiliar with it. Can you say the same thing about the RBSD people and what they do?

Yes.

Were we talking about Aikido cooperative "randori"? No.

I was reffering to "self defense" excercizes where you stand in the middle of a circle and people attack you with "random" attacks and you try to rack up a high score by showing your amazing wrist lock/groin kick abilities while the smug black belts in the background say things like "Oooh! That's gotta hurt!" and "He'll feel that tommorow!".

Were we talking about IMPACT? No. IMPACT was one of the first programs, but it didn't change, and the state of the art did. Look at what Blauer, Thompson or Messina teach and more importantly how they teach.

I have. Do you have a point?

The padded suit in its incarnations really is important. Until we have a supply of condemned convicts to work on the students will need someone to hit who will be capable of coming back for the next class.

While the technical innovations of improved safety gear are wonderful, it IS possible to go close to full force with just cups, mma gloves and a mouthpiece. It's not something you'd want to do every day but it can be done.
There are downsides to lots of gear though. The size of many models, even the newer ones, restrict movement so the "attacker"'s movements are abnormally clumsy.
Also, often the suits are paired with a "role playing" element where the person in the suit attacks in the way they think a rapist, mugger, etc. would (i'm reffering to the physical attack here). I believe this LARPing is the equivalent to _ing _un antigrappling videos where a _unner plays the role of a "grappler".

I've had concussions, broken ribs, torn muscles, broken fingers and toes and a badly bruised trachea from inside one of the better suits. If you want to have a scared angry woman do her best to hurt you with just your gi, then be my guest. I'll send flowers to the hospital.

I volunteer for this. I am 100% serious.

What you still don't understand is that it's not really about technique. It's about changing the way the student reacts. Effective technique helps, but it's secondary. The will to fight and the ability to hurt someone really badly when it's needed are the essential parts.

While this is essentially true, it lacks context. Noone disputes that will to fight is neccesary but that begs two questions:

1: What use is will to fight when technique and athleticism are inadequate (again, as in the second story of this thread)?
2: How is this killer instinct developed? I believe actually hitting a noncompliant partner, trying to throw them down and prevent them doing the same to you, working your way out of a bad position and into a good one and trying to choke them unconscious are good methods.

That few extra pounds of force isn't much in physics. It's an enormous psychological barrier. That's why judicious use of some of the nasty stuff without over-reliance on it as a panacea (which I believe I said several times) is a useful training aid.

And yet none of these women are actually bursting eyeballs either. The methodology is applying it to the point of submission, which is just like sub. grappling except less practical.
And no, putting your thumbs in fruit while your dummy does his best stage scream is NOT an advantage.

And I am saying that they are, especially if you are talking about women who aren't going to spend years pursuing an obscure hobby in a testosterone-heavy environment.

Fighting (self defense if you prefer) is hard. It requires many hours of practice, sparring and conditioning. There are no quick answers.

Fighting back works. Short term courses increase the chances that you will fight back. The willingness to hurt someone is a rare thing among normal sane human beings. The better courses help the student flip that switch and give them decent high-percentage tools. If that's all they have that's what they'll use.

Again, i'm saying "dirty tricks" are LOW percentage tools.

Give me a break, and I don't mean arm, leg or neck. One apocryphal story about someone who may have used a back headbutt at the same time as a pain technique isn't even close to a statistical universe. Look at your beloved MMA competitions. The reason the head butt is forbidden in all of them is that it has a very good chance of hurting someone pretty badly when it's done correctly.

If you'd actually bothered to research MMA history you would know that was due to senator mcaine, and no wish of rorion or anyone else involved in the early UFCs.

As I say, I've personally seen knockouts and what I'm pretty sure was a hairline skull fracture from a well-executed one. Look at Holyfield vs. Tyson #1. They were both chugging along until Iron Mike ran into Holyfield's forehead. It really took the starch out of him. Most experienced boxers I've read or talked to say that is where it went irretrievably wrong for him.

Interesting...and yet it's not actually apoint.

Nothing is guaranteed to work. Nothing at all. But some things shade the odds better than others.

Yes. Those things are not "dirty tricks", they are solid, athletic, FUNCTIONAL abilities at all ranges.

I'll say it again and again if necessary. I practice a position-based martial art.

What is it?

Position is a means, not an end. I never said anything about strikes to the spine being ways of defending against a takedown. But any doctor, paramedic or person with half a brain can tell you that strong strikes to the cervical spine and the back of the head are deadly force. Nobody can take more than a few of them without the risk of death or permanent crippling injury. They aren't "lame". It's just reality. And it's an example of how one might fine tune competitive sports for application in a different arena.

Medical evidence of lethality proves nothing about effectiveness in fighting, especially since that exact technique has been applied many times in vale tudo and thai boxing, with results that are, at best, mixed.

eviechu

20-May-2006, 06:41 AM

Okay I am a white belt in BJJ, who trains with Bocadecalc. I am also a girl. I have also taken self-defense classes offered by university police officers. The SD stuff was useful to me at the time. However, BJJ has much more to offer than any SD course can effectively offer to a woman.

If an attacker comes from behind.. I know how to defend against taking of the back. Especially since I am trained in the art, any doofus smart enough to try me is not going to have the techniques I have. I will be able to escape their very bad mount, side mount, or guard with ease.

Now when you think of BJJ techniques you need to think beyond the training you get on the mats. You need to think of what the BJJ guys do, in lets say UFC or Pride. They throw punches from guard, etc. What do you do if you have mount or guard lets say? Punch him, make him hurt, make him defend, make him expose his arms to an armbar or move into a triangle position. What if he has your back? Then you will know how to escape the back with BJJ, pull a reversal, escape from his guard

Unlike what Tellner suggests, if the two of you are rolling around and you are trying to escape, you get him in to a submission position then by all means dislocated an arm, leg, what-have-you, or put him in to a sleeper choke, then run. When your being attacked its not a training or sparring sessions. It's a matter of life and death. So therefore, you don’t tap him out and let him back up. The law is going to be own your side, plus your a woman, it is automatically your word against his (political correctness argument for this can be saved for another day). Frankly, the sucker who tries to rape/kill whatever me is going to be mighty sorry because the first ride he is going to get afterwards is one to the hospital.

Size matter much less in BJJ than it does in other arts. Unlike other SD techniques, in BJJ size does not really play a factor, nor does weight. Hell, I have tapped out guys who weigh 50 lbs heavier then me and was about a foot taller than me. If you know your techniques and you should if your smart and you train BJJ not some wussy TKD, then you will be quite fine.

What women should take from a SD class? Carrying around sharp objects? Yes, carrying your keys in a certain way so that they are nice scratching and stabbing thingies may be a good defense. However, blood is not going to scare away the more intense attackers. Kicking in the groin sure is going to hurt, but hey sometimes the pain doesn't last that long or some guys can suck it up. Physical pain won't deter the really sick weirdoes out there. Think about it, does chemical castration really work? Sure it kills off their gonads, but not the urge. That is mental. The really mental guys are really going to suffer through the pain to get what is going to get them off. Hell the pain might even get them off. The thrill of a lively fight might be just the thing to get a sicko at the peak of his excitement other than getting to your nether regions or what have you. Even pepper spray may not deter an attacker. You won’t know until it happens, god forbid.

Therefore, there lays the reason to properly know how to choke people out, knowing armbars enough so you know how much pressure it takes to take their arm out of their sockets or break them so they can't chase you. Think about it. Who is still going to be able to chase you more efficiently? A guy who is recovering, at any pace, from a kick in the groin, head butt, superficial starch with keys ore a ring – basically the guy who is bearing through the pain but is still awake and has usable ligaments? Or the guy who had his arm dislocated, leg dislocated, or put in a sleeper choke? Also what is the deal with the head butt? Sure, if you manage to pull it off correctly it wont hurt AS MUCH, but why risk giving yourself a sever headache, possibly causing tunnel vision when you need to get away. Really. That is just RETARDED. So, yeah, how I see it BJJ training is invaluable to a women’s arsenal when it comes to surviving an attacker.

BocaDeCalca

20-May-2006, 06:47 AM

What reality based programs have you evaluated?

IMPACT (twice) and a sample lesson of the Blauer program, plus extensive reading on the subject and laughing at the shreedder.

Matt_Bernius

20-May-2006, 03:28 PM

Ok, after reading your posts I think I've zeroed in on something...

One point that needs to be made clear is that we're not denying that people can make great progress towards self defense in BJJ or any other resistance training program. In fact, resistance training is a cornerstone of RBSD programs like Blauers.

What Tellner and I take issue with is a suggestion that BJJ is the best or only method to learn self defense. Nor does it necessarily cover all the aspects of self defense.

I definitely think that BJJ can be a more more rewarding and deep practice over the long term. And I think Thorton's points about the fitness improvements are well taken.

IMPACT (twice) and a sample lesson of the Blauer program, plus extensive reading on the subject and laughing at the shreedder.Which Blauer coach did you work with? Did you get a chance to work with high gear? Did you do any scenario work?

- Matt

tellner

21-May-2006, 04:17 PM

I really don't know how to get the point through to you. Your preconceptions about what Matt and I are saying are just too thick for facts, logic or plain words to get through. I'll try one more time:

1) Wrestling (which includes BJJ) is good stuff for self defense.
2) It is only a part of a good self defense program. If it is constituted as sport, even a very good sport, it will need to be modified to be optimal in a different environment.
3) More training is always good. If you don't have a lot of time you teach what will give the highest-percentage results in ths shortest time.
4) Position is important. It is still only a means to an end. Knee-to-abdomen is nice. If that's your goal you will come up short if your goal should have been "survive this attack".
5) The most important thing, and we have thirty years of real research, not "My BJJ teacher told me that our martial art is the best thing since crunchy peanut butter and nobody ever raped Rickson", but real, controlled, multi-study, peer-reviewed, cross-discipline research, has shown that the single most important thing is to fight like hell when it's time to fight. Technique is at best tertiary. Unless it's with a gun or a knife, but that's a different thing.
6) A lot of the BJJ finishing holds can be very good. If your orientation is "get a submission" you will come up short again. Or worse, they will submit, you let them go, and they come after you. If you want to teach any martial art as a self defense program you have to change your training methods and your student's reactions to apply to self defense rather than submission in a contest. You fight the way you train.
7) The UFC, Pride and K-1 have the square root of nothing to do with women's self defense. The situation is different. The possible outcomes are different. The conditions for success are different. Most of all, the UFC is a contest between two large, matched-for-weight body-nazis who have studied each other's fights and who plan to go home friends at the end of the day. That is not the model for someone who has decided he wants to shove his penis into your rectum without permission, preferably by betraying your trust in him. Even if your technique is good your chances of prevailing will be much higher if you've had training that prepares you for that dynamic.
8) No matter how many times you say otherwise, size matters in a fight. It isn't insurmountable, which is why good training (and lots of it) is important, but the mantra mumbled by so many BJJ players (though not by the Gracie family) that BJJ negates size is hogwash. Pass the guard by stacking? Not when you're 110 pounds and he's 210. You have to change what you train to accomodate reality.
9) Most of the technique I've seen in submission wrestling including BJJ has been designed for male bodies. Even if we granted that BJJ was the supreme ultimate nothing could possibly be better that would have to be addressed. For instance, the standard bridge doesn't work nearly as well for women. But there is a way of modifying it that takes advantage of their greater hip rotation.
10) IMPACT and Model Mugging haven't changed much since the early days. The world really has passed them by.

So look, I'm not trying to say "BJJ sucks!" I'm saying that martial arts may be useful for self defense. But it is not self defense. To be useful for self defense a program has to be designed for the sorts of situations and dynamics the student is likely to encounter. Will a good wrestling program help all by itself? Of course. Will it be a complete answer? Of course not. In the real world it is only one tool out of many, and completely worthless if it doesn't come with the right mindset. The thing that started this whole interchange (I hesitate to call it a conversation) was "dirty tricks". They are more than anything a way of developing that mindset.

And that is close to everything I have to say on the subject.

Atharel

21-May-2006, 10:30 PM

If your orientation is "get a submission" you will come up short again. Or worse, they will submit, you let them go, and they come after you

Why would you let them go? An armbar isn't a way to make someone tap your leg to say "okay let's get up now!" It's an armbar. It breaks an arm. It works regardless of the size of the attacker and defender.

The whole point of a "submission" isn't pain compliance. It's one fighter recognizing that the one who has him in the hold could destroy him by arching his back just a little more or just keeping the choke on for thirty more seconds. You submit out of recognition that the other person has an insurmountable advantage and you have no chance to defeat them - if you continued to fight, you would either die or be crippled.

I think "going for a submission" is marvellously effective for self-defense, especially women. You don't need to have a punching match for five minutes against someone that can shrug off your blows while hitting much, much harder; you don't need to rely on a magic knockout roundhouse; you don't need to rely on teh magic groinshot; you certainly don't need to rely on mad flailing that just gives them openings to take you down and gain the advantage. You break the arm or choke them unconscious, both of which work very well even against those much stronger than you, and you suddenly have all the advantages.

Moosey

21-May-2006, 10:36 PM

It works regardless of the size of the attacker and defender.
I'm not sure that's the case. A small woman trying to bar a big fella is just gonna get muscled out of it.

Atharel

21-May-2006, 10:39 PM

I get frequently armbarred by the peppy little 1st kyu in the club, and I have sixty pounds of mostly muscle on her.

Regarding submissions in general, skill >> strength. For evidence, see UFC 1-6.

Oversoul

23-May-2006, 01:10 AM

I'm not sure that's the case. A small woman trying to bar a big fella is just gonna get muscled out of it.

The best armbars isolate the arm very effectively and if the opponent can muscle out of it once you're already in position and applying the lock, he's too big for any other move in your arsenal.

Moosey

23-May-2006, 10:41 AM

The best armbars isolate the arm very effectively
But surely a large male rapist is likely to have more arm strength than his victim and won't allow the lock to begin being applied?

and if the opponent can muscle out of it once you're already in position and applying the lock, he's too big for any other move in your arsenal.
I was thinking more along the lines of him muscling out before you've fully applied the lock. Plus it may indeed be the case that he's too big for any move in your arsenal. Very few female self-defence courses recommend grappling with your opponent. It's all about sticking your keys in his eye, scraping your shoes on his shin, twisting his cojones etc etc

Rebel Wado

23-May-2006, 05:17 PM

First of all, there is a self-defense aspect of training BJJ that I have trained in. This aspect includes stand-up grappling, punching, elbows, kicks, etc. If you are only training BJJ in the shoot and ground grappling, I cannot say that is anything but sport because it isn't well rounded enough to be considered self-defense. IMHO.

Why would you let them go? An armbar isn't a way to make someone tap your leg to say "okay let's get up now!" It's an armbar. It breaks an arm. It works regardless of the size of the attacker and defender.

Gracie wouldn't let go, he would break it definitely. However, some people don't have the experience in breaking arms that they think they do. Some get a submission but they are already near their own full range of motion. You need to develop submissions that work at less than maybe a third your range of motion, therefore you have plenty (triple) the distance left to finish the break.

Yes this is a training issue that some can get the submission but are unable to follow through to the break because their technique is not good.

The whole point of a "submission" isn't pain compliance.

No, some submissions are pain compliance, some are blood or breathing chokes, some are tendon breaks, some ligament breaks, there are many kinds.

It's one fighter recognizing that the one who has him in the hold could destroy him by arching his back just a little more or just keeping the choke on for thirty more seconds. You submit out of recognition that the other person has an insurmountable advantage and you have no chance to defeat them - if you continued to fight, you would either die or be crippled.

The reason one taps out is a conscious decision based on what you say (self-preservation). Just because someone taps out, that doesn't mean they give up the fight in a real situation.

Real situations you can get the person that gives up which is great on the up and up, but I know from personal experience that you also can get the person that won't give up. Even if they tap out, and even if you break their arm, they will keep fighting.

Only way someone really gives up is they decide to give up, that means dialogue or talking them down... negotiation skills. You just have a lot of clout negotiating with an armbar put on them or your thumb pressing in their eye ball.

I think "going for a submission" is marvellously effective for self-defense, especially women. You don't need to have a punching match for five minutes against someone that can shrug off your blows while hitting much, much harder; you don't need to rely on a magic knockout roundhouse; you don't need to rely on teh magic groinshot; you certainly don't need to rely on mad flailing that just gives them openings to take you down and gain the advantage. You break the arm or choke them unconscious, both of which work very well even against those much stronger than you, and you suddenly have all the advantages.

Oh boy.... you are entitled to your opinion.

Let's set this up with some realism... take an attacker that has maybe fifty or more pounds advantage on the defender, allow that attacker to punch the defender in the face, eyes, throat full power while the defender is only allowed to go for the submission. How much training does the defender need to pull the submission off? One week, one month, one year, ten years? Now how long and many classes do you actually have to train this defender to defend themselves?

Matt_Bernius

23-May-2006, 07:36 PM

take an attacker that has maybe fifty or more pounds advantage on the defender, allow that attacker to punch the defender in the face, eyes, throat full power while the defender is only allowed to go for the submission. How much training does the defender need to pull the submission off? One week, one month, one year, ten years? Now how long and many classes do you actually have to train this defender to defend themselves?This is a critical point. There is no question that BJJ is one of the most effective methods of unarmed ground combat. But, if self defense starts only when you are in the fight, on the ground, with the person on top of you, then it's already way too late.

The critical thing about a good RBSD program is that it addresses everything that happens BEFORE punches get thrown.

- Matt

Rebel Wado

23-May-2006, 09:09 PM

I agree with what you said Matt, but just to clarify, my example did not assume the attacker and defender were on the ground.

Oversoul

23-May-2006, 11:51 PM

I was thinking more along the lines of him muscling out before you've fully applied the lock. Plus it may indeed be the case that he's too big for any move in your arsenal. Very few female self-defence courses recommend grappling with your opponent. It's all about sticking your keys in his eye, scraping your shoes on his shin, twisting his cojones etc etc

Well, muscling out of an armbar before it's locked on is a lot easier, but that's where skill in setting up and transitioning into armbars comes into play. Isn't that the same as anything else in martial arts?

I can't pretend to know about female self-defense courses and grappling is something that takes time and effort to learn (and be proficient in, of course). So that makes sense.

A key in the eye sounds effective, although if your opponent it oh so much bigger and stronger, you'd better get it right on the first shot. But scraping his shin? What's that supposed to do?

tellner

24-May-2006, 01:29 AM

Another thing to consider is that self defense isn't fighting. It may include fighting, but there's a lot more to it. Part of this is, once again, stopping things as soon as you can. The earlier you can finish it, the less the attacker has invested in the attack unless he has some reason to want to kill you personally.

If prevention, avoidance and deterrence don't work, then we're onto resistance. A defender who doesn't really get into the good stuff until she's already on the ground and ground-grappling may well have passed up good opportunities to stop things earlier. Once she's there, BJJ all the way! or Sambo, the way to go!

Moosey

24-May-2006, 11:07 AM

Well, muscling out of an armbar before it's locked on is a lot easier, but that's where skill in setting up and transitioning into armbars comes into play. Isn't that the same as anything else in martial arts?

I can't pretend to know about female self-defense courses and grappling is something that takes time and effort to learn (and be proficient in, of course). So that makes sense.

A key in the eye sounds effective, although if your opponent it oh so much bigger and stronger, you'd better get it right on the first shot. But scraping his shin? What's that supposed to do?
Hurt like heck! Hopefully enough for him to loosed his grip and you can do a runner to somewhere a bit more open and safe.

Most courses in self defence teach techniques that require very little strength or technique as they've got to be pulled off under very very stressful circumstances usually against a larger person. This pretty much consists of what we'd consider "dirty" fighting - but if some scumweasel is trying to assault you, then your safety is more important that being a gentlewoman.

As you said, a lady who'd trained for years in BJJ would certainly have an advantage should she end up on the ground, but whether that advantage would extent to being able to arm bar a large, adrenaline fueled male attacker I'm not so sure of.

Oversoul

24-May-2006, 09:00 PM

Hurt like heck! Hopefully enough for him to loosed his grip and you can do a runner to somewhere a bit more open and safe.

Most courses in self defence teach techniques that require very little strength or technique as they've got to be pulled off under very very stressful circumstances usually against a larger person. This pretty much consists of what we'd consider "dirty" fighting - but if some scumweasel is trying to assault you, then your safety is more important that being a gentlewoman.

As you said, a lady who'd trained for years in BJJ would certainly have an advantage should she end up on the ground, but whether that advantage would extent to being able to arm bar a large, adrenaline fueled male attacker I'm not so sure of.

I don't disagree that training in BJJ for years would give you an edge on the ground (against the vast majority of opponents, at least), but I'm not sure where you're getting that out of what I said...

Anyway, I don't believe scraping the shin would be effective, especially against some big, strong guy. I'm a normal-sized guy and scraping my shins with your shoes wouldn't do anything (unless your shoes have razor blades on them or something). I doubt that big guys have more fragile shins.

Agutrot-

24-May-2006, 09:14 PM

bcullen

24-May-2006, 09:32 PM

I disagree with going for the eyes or balls theory. That just makes people mad. I was wrestling around with a friend and when I got him in an armbar he punched me in the nuts, and all he accomplished with it was me breaking his jaw. Eyes hurt but it takes more force then you'd think to actually blind someone. I think you'd have to break one of your attacker's bones. You can easily snap someones forearm by kneeing it while pulling it down at the same time(like MT clinch). Or do a police style armbar and stomping on their elbow. If the attacker is determined you have to incapacite them, not just cause pain.

How could he punch you in the nuts if you had him in an armbar?

This is a friend and you broke his jaw? From in an armbar?

Easily break a forearm?

Groin shots and eye gouges are not some magical panacea removing the need for training but never underestimate the effect of a so called "cheap" shot. There's more to it then just pain.

MAnewbie

24-May-2006, 09:48 PM

Oversoul

25-May-2006, 02:44 AM

The point of an eye gouge or a kick between the legs isn't to disable your opponent. It is to buy time for you to get out of the hold he may have you in and to get away. I'm sorry, but I'd have to take a moment to recover no matter how much pain tolerance I had if a woman kicked me between the legs or scraped my eyes with a key.

I agree about driving a key into an eye, because that's some serious damage. Sure, attacking the eye in general might not pay off, but a key in the eye will blind that eye and might send the opponent right into shock.

The thing about kicking the groin is that it's not very reliable. If you're desperate, anything is better than nothing, but otherwise I'd go for something more reliable.

adouglasmhor

25-May-2006, 09:50 AM

Rebel Wado

25-May-2006, 05:52 PM

I have been kicked in the balls quite a few times, attempted more, it's easy to avoid, easy to minimise the effect (just try tilting your head forward or closing your legs) and vastly overrated as a technique, saying that if you get a clear shot go for it, what do you have to lose.

Which type of groin kick(s) are you referring to?

1. A rising shin or top of foot between the legs from the front
or
2. A front snap/thrust kick to the small intestines
or
3. A rising snap kick striking the inside of the leg with the blade of the foot as the ball of the foot strikes up into the scrotum, toes grab the skin and rip
or
4. a rising shin between the legs from behind, using the foot to attack the groin and the shin to attack the tail bone

Just wondering

Lucy O'Malley

26-May-2006, 10:23 AM

O.k BJJ may have improved someones fighting ability, but any time spent in any martial art is going to help with confidence and any good instructor is going to bring out your fighting ability, if that is what you yourself are looking for in your training.

But some people do not want to know how to become a fighter in a class or even in competitions. They only want to increase their opportunity of escaping an attack on the street. No more no less.

I believe for self defence you need to know varying escapes from different holds and pins, but not a lesson in grappling. The last place you want to be if you can help it on the street is on the floor rolling about searching for possible locks. Escapes, yes but a lock or break is not going to end your ordeal.

Weapons need to be considered, what if he has a knife or any impliment really? Also what if there is more than one attacker? What if he is 5 time bigger than you? And I am sorry if you do break someone's arm from a follow through on a lock, with the addenaline pumping round the guys system, you will more than likely just piss him off big time and what started out as an attack will probably end up in murder instead. These have all got to be taken into account on the street. The last place you want to be if you can help it, is on the floor grappling.

Even if the guy has you in a hold initially, you have to consider the risks of continuing a grapple with him.

We had one of our 18 year old white belts fight no rules against a very high profile, famous BJJ guy with a stick each and a headguard (nothing else). The BJJ guy who's name I will not mention thought his grappling seriously outweighed any other art on the planet, so much so he agreed to fight no rules anything goes, just there is a weapon in play too. It took him 2 and a half minutes to finally submit our white belt who had no experience atall in BJJ or any type of grappling and also had very limited knowledge of the stick and/or kicking and punching. He had only been doing martial arts for 3 months. He did have alot of confidence and spirit though which is why we allowed him to fight.

The first minute and a half, the white belt pretty much controlled the whole fight and our BJJ guy will admit he got that many hits to the head that he probably would not have survived even a minute without the headgear and his body was briused seriously all over, in paticular his back from leaning in to shoot. Approaching nearly two minutes the BJJ guy decided to forget the stick that was hitting him and rush in to grapple regardless (he had tried shooting in throughout the fight, but was at that point taking into account the stick), only problem was the white belt got at least 5 very good clean hard shots to his head and then even once on the floor grappling it took him nearly a minute to submit our white belt who had no grappling skills but still had his stick pounding at the BJJ guy on the floor. It was only that our white belt began to tire with the weight of the guy (much bigger) on top of him that a submission was eventually won. The BJJ guy with untold experience could not get a hold, lock or an attempt at a break with someone hitting him with a weapon.

The BJJ guy said. I am good at my sport but I would have been knocked out or even killed in under a minute. He even knew that our guy was not very skilled, he just had a weapon and alot of heart.

Now imagine if that is someone that genuinely wants to hurt you for gain and alot to loose him he does not do it properly.

Don't get me wrong, I like BJJ and I even have a british MMA title of my own, which I won back in 2001. I would quite like my son and daughter to do something like BJJ. But remember it is just a sport, it is in no way fit for the street as a be all and end all result to all our problems on the street, as there are far to many scenarios not taken into account for street defense in the BJJ systems.

I think all women should train in a martial art and yes if you do regularly train you will have the confidence to do things you would once of only imagined and yes you will probably increase your chances of escape too if attacked

I think what several are saying is that you cannot be taught a well rounded martial art in the 20 or 40 hours that most people will attend for for self protection, but you can teach what has been statistically proven to work from previous records of attacks and they are talking about very large statistics worldwide and I these courses they have been proven to save lives.

In my opinion though, I would not put my life into the hands of a short self protection course.

And the balls thing....do not kick them. You kick them, they just pull up into the protective pelvic area, that is what they are designed to do as the bodies natural line of defence on contact with the balls. O.k it does hurt sometimes but will not have the effect you expect. If you are going to hit them you need to hit down from the top, this hurts far more and if you get the chance grab pull and twist. Now this hurts and has an effect.

I call this bladdereyes. Pull the bladder and give it to the eyes. Show him you have got them, give him a close up view. And while you are there, give his eyes a good gauge. No-one has strong eyes.

When I used to go running I had a fear that someone may jump out towards the end of my run when it was dark and I was tired so I always used to carry a kubatan (SP) keyring with my keys on. Incase you do not know what it is, it is a metal cylinder strip with a point on. You can use the bar for striking pressure points or hold the bar and swing your keys as a weapon. It used to fit nicely in my hand and seeing as I had to carry my keys anyway it made sense.

I will go now, but it is nice to see people talking in the womens self defense thread.

Lots of love :love:

Lucy

Sankaku-jime

26-May-2006, 10:41 AM

But remember it is just a sport, it is in no way fit for the street as a be all and end all result to all our problems on the street, as there are far to many scenarios not taken into account for street defense in the BJJ systems.

go tell that to Helios or Rickson

Lucy O'Malley

26-May-2006, 10:53 AM

I am going by experience.

Most BJJ experts that I have met, do not take weapons into account at any stage of a confrontation. It just is not drilled into them.

They cannot grapple a knife and that is that. You would be stupid to do so. And on the street, you have to take weapons into account at every stage of the confrontation. Just because you don't see it initially, does not mean it does not come into play.

Lots of love :love:

Lucy

Sankaku-jime

26-May-2006, 11:00 AM

what i meant was go tell this to Rickson or Helios

But remember it is just a sport, it is in no way fit for the street

Lucy O'Malley

26-May-2006, 11:45 AM

I am pretty sure they cannot fight for the whole BJJ worldwide community.

Unfortunately, there are others who teach the art all over the world too and the reputation they are giving and getting it, is as a sport.

There will always be individuals in arts that can show more dimension to the art. But they are few and far between and even these people often look outside their own four walls and test their skills or even get lessons in other arts, in order to improve their own already attained skills in order to improve them and show them other aspects. This is a real martial artist regardless of art or style.

But your average BJJ'er is just going to attend the class once or twice a week at their local centre and will only walk away with what they are given in those four walls and will often walk round blinkered for years, thinking they are indestructable because they have some new found confidence on the mat in class amongst friends. This will get you killed, you have to accept you are somewhat doing it for fun, unless adapted for the street, it will not save you on the street.

Lots of love :love:

Lucy

Sankaku-jime

26-May-2006, 11:53 AM

But your average BJJ'er is just going to attend the class once or twice a week at their local centre and will only walk away with what they are given in those four walls and will often walk round blinkered for years, thinking they are indestructable because they have some new found confidence on the mat in class amongst friends. This will get you killed, you have to accept you are somewhat doing it for fun, unless adapted for the street, it will not save you on the street.

Lucy

your statement could be applied to all Martial Artists of any discipline.

Martial Arts Training has to be fun else people would get pretty bored quickly,

i agree to a certain extent that BJJ is mostly taught for sport, but i think people who train BJJ for sport Jujutsu realise this and dont walk around thinking they are indestructable,

Lucy O'Malley

26-May-2006, 12:13 PM

go tell that to Helios or Rickson

So are you saying they would go and grapple someone that may have a knife?

I always highly regarded them as individuals, in the martial arts.

Baring in mind that someone is not going to atack you without some kind of back up plan.

Lots of love :love:

Lucy

Sankaku-jime

26-May-2006, 12:59 PM

So are you saying they would go and grapple someone that may have a knife?
Lucy

i dont know, you'd have to ask them,

BJJ is an exellent art, escapes, locks, jokes, throws, all honed against resisting opponents, and certainly usefull in a real situation.

does it have all the answers, personally i dont think so, but it does have an exelllent arsenal of techniques

Lucy O'Malley

26-May-2006, 01:09 PM

Grappling is fine empty handed one on one up against someone who does not know about grappling, assuming you know for sure that they are empty handed, but..........

This is a trained policeman that thought he could grapple a guy with a knife as opposed to shooting him with his gun.

Please feel free to remove the picture if it is offensive to anyone.

So maybe you can understand why I say avoid grappling on the street at all costs.

Lots of love :love:

Lucy

KickChick

26-May-2006, 01:27 PM

I cannot argue with Lucy there after seeing that pic (as brutal as it is, it does drive the point ;) ) Taking into consideration that most street attacks are multiple and armed, should not grappling be used only as an unavoidable option?

Good read here
Street Grappling, A Recipe for Disaster (http://www.ironlife.com/mag/issue8/grappling.shtml)

Sankaku-jime

26-May-2006, 01:54 PM

Taking into consideration that most street attacks are multiple and armed, should not grappling be used only as an unavoidable option?

i'm not sure that most street attacks are armed, multiple, but armed i suppose that the depends where you live,

as for grappling being the last resort, i would have to agree, grappling would usualy be the last resort, but chances are you wont choose to grapple, it will just happen, then you will have to

Pat OMalley

26-May-2006, 01:57 PM

what i meant was go tell this to Rickson or HeliosI think if you asked them yourself you would find that they too would have a very similar answer. Rickson and Helios as well as many of the other Gracies and Machado's are exception martial artists who have done exception things to make the Martial Arts world sit up and listen to the merits of the art of Ju Jitsu, but am pretty sure they too would not feel comfortable grappling someone to the ground who had intent of cutting them to peices, and if they had the oppertunity they would more than likely shoot them.
Grappling has it place as does all other Martial Arts and I am a firm beleiver that you have to learn those skills, epsecially women. Because all too often when a women is attacked it is usually only for a couple of reasons.

1. Take her money, which in most cases does not involve the attacker teking her to the ground, but does in most cases involve a weapon to presuade her to give up her purse, that weapon 9 times out of 10 will be a knife.

2. To cause Domestic Viloence which can involve the husband or boyfreind sitting on her and punching her, so yes grappling to escape can come in as an advantage, but the best line of defence for this is to leave the relationship.

3. To rape or cause sexual abuse to her, again all to often this will involve the assailant grappling her to the floor in order to carry out her crime, but he too will know that not all women take it lying down (no pun intended) they all too often struggle, so yes some grappling skills are in order, but he knows this and most of the time he will bring along an item that will convince her not to struggle, Yes you guessed it, 9 times out of 10 it is a knife.

4. To kill her, very few murders are carried out without the use of a weapon even if it is to gain control of the victim and most of those used are with knives.

The best place an attacker with a knife can have you is, wait for it........ Grappling range, it is the most effective range for the knife.

Yes you need to learn grappling so you can escape, you need to learn how to kick and punch, lock and joint break to give you a fighting chance, but you also need to know and have a good basic understanding of how weapons are used and how to avoid and or counter them in a realistic manner.

No one art has all the answers but I feel the one that comes the closest if you need one is FMA, they train in all the areas I have mentioned and they train with resisting partners.

Too many people underestimate the humble knife and think that it can just be placed to one side, but in reality it is the humble knife that is involved in most violent attacks.

Best regards

Pat

NewLearner

26-May-2006, 02:17 PM

your statement could be applied to all Martial Artists of any discipline.

Martial Arts Training has to be fun else people would get pretty bored quickly,

i agree to a certain extent that BJJ is mostly taught for sport, but i think people who train BJJ for sport Jujutsu realise this and dont walk around thinking they are indestructable,

I would have to disagree. Most do think they are indestructable. Just like most 15-22 year olds do. And most jocks. Ad nauseum. The reality is that no one is indestructable and any of us can die today. No matter how good you are and how bad your opponent is, they can still win due to dumb luck. I just prefer to minimize the chances of falling due to dumb luck.

NewLearner

26-May-2006, 02:21 PM

I have been kicked in the balls quite a few times, attempted more, it's easy to avoid, easy to minimise the effect (just try tilting your head forward or closing your legs) and vastly overrated as a technique, saying that if you get a clear shot go for it, what do you have to lose.

To some extent you are right. It is used far too often and guys instinctively protect it. I tell my wife that it is not the place to go for. Instead, go for the knee. Most don't protect it.

I wouldn't tilt my head forward though. That would be a good way to get knocked out.

BocaDeCalca

26-May-2006, 09:50 PM

Which Blauer coach did you work with?

Since he and my instructor have shared space, i'd rather not post it publicly here, to avoid drama. I can PM it to you, if you want.

Did you get a chance to work with high gear?

No.

Did you do any scenario work?

- Matt

We did a scenario where someone tries to stomp you while you're on your back. To their credit, I was told to really try to stomp. Still, when it was my turn to defend, I was told not to try to go to open guard, sweep the guy, etc.
It wasn't horrible, like most self defense, but there wasn't very much resistance, except for the abovementioned work (the rest of the class was dead drilling and hitting the bags).

BocaDeCalca

26-May-2006, 09:59 PM

Hurt like heck! Hopefully enough for him to loosed his grip and you can do a runner to somewhere a bit more open and safe.

Hopefully isn't good enough.

Most courses in self defence teach techniques that require very little strength or technique as they've got to be pulled off under very very stressful circumstances usually against a larger person. This pretty much consists of what we'd consider "dirty" fighting - but if some scumweasel is trying to assault you, then your safety is more important that being a gentlewoman.

Again, the story on the beggining of the thread this one was split from shows exactly this mentality not working. The woman was attacked with the classic "rear bear hug" for which umpty bajillion defenses are taught in your average SD class, two of which she attempted, and failed entirely.

Or, in other words, there are no shortcuts. Self defense is not easy, and requires the investment of many hours of work in an athletic, competitive environment.

As you said, a lady who'd trained for years in BJJ would certainly have an advantage should she end up on the ground, but whether that advantage would extent to being able to arm bar a large, adrenaline fueled male attacker I'm not so sure of.

Well, have you ever done BJJ or been in a jiujitsu match? There's a LOT of adrenaline going through your system, especially for a begginer.

BocaDeCalca

26-May-2006, 10:13 PM

ryanTKD

26-May-2006, 10:57 PM

abovementioned

PLEASE, tell me you mean aforementioned.

Rebel Wado

27-May-2006, 12:18 AM

:bang:

If someone pulled out a razor/knife in a public place and challenged a Gracie, would they fight? NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Does this have any relevance to the effectiveness of GJJ or their "manhood"... Again NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How do I know? It probably has happened already, at least some would say it has been done, that is someone pulling a knife in a training facility on a Gracie... if they had accepted that challenge, you know you would have heard about it.

;)

Rebel Wado

27-May-2006, 12:32 AM

Okay, so why is BJJ NOT good for women's self-defense training? Got me. In fact BJJ is exactly what many women probably need :eek:

BJJ on the bad side is limited, very limited when it comes down to NHB fighting and weapons. However, unless one sticks their head in the sand and never does anything but BJJ for self-defense, I think there are good ways to add to BJJ to become more rounded, prepared, and less limited.

Indeed, the limitations of BJJ are also its strength. BJJ is very specialized and by being specialized it can really work the details of techniques to work against resisting opponents. This is EXACTLY what most women need for self-defense fighting technique.

Taking the situation that the women that really need self-defense the most are going to be on average smaller and not as strong as those that attack them, they cannot get by with watered down or generic techniques. Instead they need detailed technique designed to compensate for and subjugate a bigger and stronger enemy.

I know I am not alone in this thinking. A very good instructor of over forty years experience in striking arts as well as over thirty years in Tai Chi, told me this many years ago.

The details in technique are what allow it to work against someone resisting that is bigger and stronger than you are. To learn these details, you have to be able to use them against a resisting opponent in training, the bigger they are compared to you, the better. Many people can never learn these details because they are never taught to them, however, BJJ is one of the few places where these details are taught in the techniques against resisting opponents.

I will say it again, BJJ is a great choice for a women or smaller person to learn self-defense fighting skills, just so long as it isn't the only thing that is learned. Specialized, effective, but also limited.

Oversoul

27-May-2006, 04:35 AM

This is a trained policeman that thought he could grapple a guy with a knife as opposed to shooting him with his gun.

Probably not: http://www.snopes.com/photos/gruesome/kunsan.asp

NewLearner

27-May-2006, 04:40 AM

I don't see why the hell not. Who keeps on fighting with a dislocated elbow or shoulder joint?

I don't know. I won a wrestling tournament with a dislocated shoulder. And I wasn't high on drugs like some attackers are. In another thread there was a list of three different fighters that won with pretty significant injuries and they kept going. Is it not likely that a person high on drugs and not feeling pain or is irrational due to anger might continue?

Matt_Bernius

27-May-2006, 12:50 PM

We did a scenario where someone tries to stomp you while you're on your back. To their credit, I was told to really try to stomp. Still, when it was my turn to defend, I was told not to try to go to open guard, sweep the guy, etc.So what was the response they were advocating?

It wasn't horrible, like most self defense, but there wasn't very much resistance, except for the abovementioned work (the rest of the class was dead drilling and hitting the bags).So you didn't work any escalation/de-escalation stuff? Did you do any SPEAR work? What about pain managment? Pre-contact cue work?

As far as the drilling, was it pad work?

- Matt

Matt_Bernius

27-May-2006, 01:36 PM

This I frankly disbelieve. It reeks of unverifiable anecdote. In fact, I think you're lying, especially in light of the dog brothers (www.dogbrothers.com) style of stickfighting tournament/throwdown, where grappling predominates, despite a full contact approach with rattan sticks.Actually grappling only tends to dominate amoung the lower level practioners. If you watch the upper talents such as Top Dog (Eric Knaus), they very rarely go to the ground (unless they choose to). They're footwork and striking is such that they can, and actively do, avoid the take down. Now note, that like any martial arts, Gatherings have been in a state of evolution. The heaviest grappling approach in them was in '98/'99 (just as it was in most arts). And, as with every other case, the good folks modified their approach to intergrate a stick grappling game (which is different than BJJ) and also a grappling neutralization game. Heck even Denny (who I'm pretty sure has a Black Belt under the Machados) doesn't go to the ground every time. It's typically the bash-and-crashers who wade through the stick strikes and try to go to the takedown. (Oh and note - I say this as someone who has both competed in full contact and worked with Dog Brothers and people who've trained DB's).

Further, it's important to note that the ability to evenb grapple is in part based on a safety concession - the helmet. If you watch the bash-and-crashers they often wade through a number of headshots in accomplishing the shoot. Ditto the hand shots.

Further as to Lucy's story, I tend to believe her. In part it's because of the quality of their school. Also there is the fish out of water thing. Drop a BJJer into a new surrounding, place them behind a mask, and give them a stick and it's going to take some time for them to get ready. And even at three months of training, an aggressive person with a weapon is tough to get in on. I speak from experience on this. As long as that person can start a condfident "cave man sinawalli" and has basic footwork, it's going to be intimidating for any first timer to shoot. And note that FMA tends to have a more mobile base from the beginning than most other arts.

Now if Lucy has said that the BJJ failed to tap out the white belt, I'd consider that to be dubious. But that it took a fish-out-of water time to adjust and enter. That makes perfect sense (and I've seen things like it a number of times).

- Matt

Lucy O'Malley

27-May-2006, 01:39 PM

But some people do not want to know how to become a fighter in a class or even in competitions. They only want to increase their opportunity of escaping an attack on the street. No more no less.

This is weak reasoning and can easily be adressed with an answer from the FAQ.

How is it weak reasoning? I was explaining why some women do not want to take up martial arts and why they simply go to a self defence course......I am sorry, but I thought this was part of the conversation.

I believe for self defence you need to know varying escapes from different holds and pins, but not a lesson in grappling. The last place you want to be if you can help it on the street is on the floor rolling about searching for possible locks.

Since we're talking specifically about women's self defense, I don't see how this is relevant.

When somebody says all that women need to suvive an attack on the street is BJJ or other grappling arts.....it is most certainly relevant.

Again we are talking about women learning self defence, not taking up a lifetime hobby of martial arts, but at the same time I do not think a grappling art on it's own is going to give you the relevant skills for street self defence and if you believe this, it could get you killed, even if by accident in the struggle of grappling with your assailant.

Before you commit your-self to throwing someone that has you in a hold or a choke, you need to be sure they have not got a knife in their hand (which invariably you will not sense or feel initially). Imagine feeling someone grab you and instantly throwing them because that is what you have been taught in class, to only find the knife had ripped all the way round your throat during the maneouvre. Ouch. :woo:

Escapes, yes but a lock or break is not going to end your ordeal.

I don't see why the hell not. Who keeps on fighting with a dislocated elbow or shoulder joint?

I have had a broken jaw, broken fingers, broken toes and cracked ribs, just during a grading (on two different occassion, not all at once).....and still kept going until the end.

I also know of and have trained with people who have had broken bones and dislocations of various joints and parts during confrontations in the ring and on the doors and even on the street and have kept going.

It is amazing how much pain adrennaline (SP) can numb. O.k they were in agony later but the point is they did not stop for it until it was over.

Weapons need to be considered, what if he has a knife or any impliment really? Also what if there is more than one attacker? What if he is 5 time bigger than you?

What if indeed? We could play the what if game for hours, or we could get in the gym and get some functional training, which is exactly where i'm headed when this post is done.

What exactly are you saying to me....I don't train functionally? What makes you think I just sit at home all day. My titles and grades must have been sent to me in the post eh.

I am basing my answers on my experience and functional training with some of the leading figures in Britain and the World. If you are doing any kind of functional training, you would know that the first consideration in any street encounter is....are there any weapons in play, or is there a likely hood for them to come into play? Most violent attacks against women, such as rape, do involve weapons and or multiple attackers.

So why do you keep dismissing the possibility? If you are dismissing the possibility of a weapon then you are on another planet and in for shock if you ever get attacked with someone holding a knife. We are now in a knife culture, open your eyes and watch the news.

Even if the guy has you in a hold initially, you have to consider the risks of continuing a grapple with him.

Again, a fallacy. If you start out with him holding you, you are ALREADY GRAPPLING. You do not have any choice in the matter.

That's what I said, you have to consider the risks of CONTINUING a grapple with him. Like I said earlier, he is holding you and you cannot see if he is holding a knife against you either.

I am afraid there is always choices. I seriously hope you are not teaching self defence.

This I frankly disbelieve. It reeks of unverifiable anecdote. In fact, I think you're lying, especially in light of the dog brothers (www.dogbrothers.com) style of stickfighting tournament/throwdown, where grappling predominates, despite a full contact approach with rattan sticks.
Who is this "high profile, famous BJJ guy"? I know several gracies and can easily verify any claim you make.

So, because it does not fit in your world and what you believe to be the truth, it must mean it is not true. Ha ha :rolleyes: .

It was a Black Eagle Society meeting, not a competition or proof of who is the best. It is purely a test of skills in a friendly non egotistical environment. So I do not feel it is fair to name, names. I have it on video, I know it happened, I was there, and so was he and all of us went away happy. But as you know so many Gracies and I did not realise they were the only high ranking BJJ guys, but I am sure they know of the occassion...so maybe you should just go and ask them and if they do not know, I am sure they can ask around and find out for you, because like I said...the event did occur and not just in my head either.

I have no reason to lie....I have never used it for any publicity as this was not the reason for the event. We were all there to learn and if you need a rough date...it was September 1999.

Don't get me wrong, I like BJJ and I even have a british MMA title of my own, which I won back in 2001.

Name and promotion please.

Why do you think I am lying about this too. Would I really put myself in that position.

If you ask your so many contacts they also should be able to varify this.

Talk to people like Lee Hasdall, Andy Jardine and Peter McQueen.

Myself and my husband used to train and supply fighters for all 3 gentlemen and were frequently seen at the tournaments such as rings network events and millenium brawl. Have a look at the millenium brawl 2 video footage where Ian Freeman fought for his qualifier to the UFC against a former UFC Champion. A couple of fights before that....I am the pregnant one cornering Louis Beale. You will also see me cornering in the Night of the Samurai II,The Ring of truth footage. I was a few months pregnant there too.

After a couple of years of pestering Lee and Andy for a fight, which they were unable to get me during 1997 to 2000 I had a baby and got ill for a while but was still on the scene cornering, coaching and training but had given up asking for fights at this point.

It was now that we had Peter McQueen (Ian Freemans coach at the time)
was bringing fighters to our shows (yorkshire submission fighting championships) and we were taking fighters to his shows (full contact mixed martial arts english fighting championships). And it was then that an MMA event was being held in Newcastle by the B.I.S.K.A in November 2001 which Peter McQueen's guys were fighting for British MMA titles and we also had a guy fighting too. Now the promoter had a British title fight in the Womens division and 2 days before the event the challenger pulled out and I got a phone call and they asked if I would step in as they could not find anybody else from any other promoters already mentioned, but they all put my name forward knowing I had a good background in MMA. Although it was still called Vale Tudo at the time (this was before the government cracked down). So I took up the challenge and won the fight in under a minute in typical MMA fashion.

It was soon after this that Lee Hasdall asked me to be on his Vale Tudo team as their only woman, when they were auditioning for a TV show. Why don't you ask about that while you are checking my background.

I have not even began my Thai boxing background, my FMA background and my background working on the doors of clubs and pubs, so lets just assume I have a little experience when I answer questions on womens self defence and just maybe I know what I am talking about as a woman (although it might be hard for you to believe)....yes this species too can talk about their experiences with regards to WOMENS self defence and women in martial arts.

Anything else you think I am lying about.....by all means just ask. I have nothing to hide.

Lots of love :love:

Lucy

Lucy O'Malley

27-May-2006, 01:48 PM

Probably not:

When my husband was sent this picture, He was sent it as they knew he was writing a book on edged weapons....and it was sent as a police training set of photographs by a legitimate source who told him it was in fact a police officer.

And if you look at the end of your link that you supplied it also says they think it originated from a police training programme.

If somehow you think I am misleading and that this is not the type of damage done by a knife on the street, then I am sorry.

But if you get the chance to see the Police training video, 'Surviving Edged Weapons' this will deffinately open your eyes and show you in far more graphic detail.

Look you are not just going to get scratched....you do realise this don't you?

Knives kill and you need to be aware of them, what other point do I need to make. Now whether it be a Policeman, an Airman or a prison inmate. This is still what happens when you grapple a knife. The knife does not take your position in society into account, or your unbeatable martial arts skills, regardless of style.

A knife shows no prejudice against anyone....remember that.

So please do not discount it in self defence training.

Lots of love :love:

Lucy

Matt_Bernius

27-May-2006, 01:59 PM

But if you get the chance to see the Police training video, 'Surviving Edged Weapons' this will deffinately open your eyes and show you in far more graphic detail.A great video that is sadly out of circulation right now (or at least the last time I checked).

- Matt

Lucy O'Malley

27-May-2006, 02:03 PM

Well I am glad I have got a copy...because I am probably one of the only ones that will even respect a spoon then.

If a women starts coming towards you with a spoon and looks even slightly unhappy....take my advice....

RRRRRRRUUUUuuuuuuuuuuuuuuunnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn. :D :D

Lots of love :love:

Lucy

bassai

27-May-2006, 03:06 PM

i'm not sure that most street attacks are armed, multiple, but armed i suppose that the depends where you live,

as for grappling being the last resort, i would have to agree, grappling would usualy be the last resort, but chances are you wont choose to grapple, it will just happen, then you will have to

Sankaku you're in the uk according to your profile , i'm not sure about the multiple attacker scenario , although we seem to see more stories involving more than one aggressor every day , but to say that not many street attacks involve weapons , especialy knives , is wrong.
Britain at the moment seems to have quite a big problem with kids carrying knives , i know one teenager that has actualy shown me the knife he carries , also over the last few lessons i've taught i've asked the teenagers present if they know somone who carries a knife and every one of them said yes , so i think knives cannot be discounted anymore.

Pat OMalley

27-May-2006, 03:09 PM

This I frankly disbelieve. It reeks of unverifiable anecdote. In fact, I think you're lying, especially in light of the dog brothers (http://www.dogbrothers.com/) style of stickfighting tournament/throwdown, where grappling predominates, despite a full contact approach with rattan sticks.
Who is this "high profile, famous BJJ guy"? I know several gracies and can easily verify any claim you make.

I think you are misreading what Lucy posted, she was in no way trying to bellitle BJJ, as she said earlier she love training in MMA and trust me she is at a very good standard, but she also realises like everything it has it's limitations and to rely on this soley for street defence is quite frankly Stupid.

Now to go on to your disbeleif of the event she was talking about, I too was there, being the head of the Black Eagel Soceity I suppose it was expected for me to be there.

What is the Black Eagle Society? well much akin to the dog brothers you mention. And even the Dog Brothers will tell you, that if you are any good with your weapon it will not go to the floor unless you really want it to. That is fact.

Now lets go on to the BJJ guy, he actually turned up out of the blue to this event and because he had no expeariance with a weapon I felt it only right to place him against a begginer first regardless of his expeariance in BJJ, because brining weapons in to the equasion will make a big difference to any encounter, just ask the Army. We were not there to make him look stupid, as a matter of fact it was the opposite, We were there to let him learn from the expeariance of playing in a pressure testing enviroment that he was not used to and to give any advise based on his expeariance on how we could improve our game and approach too. Now had he had expeariance with weapons then he would have played with the more senior members of the Society. No doubt if I would have decided to roll on the mat's with him BJJ style then he would have quite easily rip me a new ...... Well you know what I am saying.

Now what would be better way for me to promote my club way back in 1999 than to plaster this guys face all over the magizines telling everyone just how his BJJ does not work against weapons. Now why did I not think of doing that? Because I have seen others doing this and it quite frankly it disgusts me, We can all make fools of people who have no expeariance in other specialised areas of the arts can't we. The other reason no names were mentioned is because this was first and formost a session were people from different styles pitted their wits up against each other in a painful game of chess, not in order to beat the hell out of each other, not to build their egos or promotion of their style, club or group, but to test their skills up against others in a freindly enviroment just to see where their strengths and weaknesses lay.

Now as Lucy said, it took the guy a bit of time to close the white belt off and he finally with his expeariance he eventually gained the upperhand, he took his time and once the other guy was tired he took the advantage? Mmmmm Typical BJJ aproach is it not? He did admit afterwards that if it were not for the helmet he would have been seriously damaged and time is not a luxury you are allowed to have when facing a weapon.

Now is this so hard to beleive that someone (regardless of who they are) who has never played in the type of pressure testing environment that we use would have difficulty in the first instance then have to adjust his game plan and then adapt to the situation and finally get the better of the opponent? No of course not, it happens all the time in a pressure environment. He admited his weakness and seen the relevance an merits of what we were doing and I am pretty sure he has adjusted his out look to his training for outside the gym, taking into account the pitfalls of comming up against a weapon and would if on the street now treat a weapons encounter with a little more respect.

Thank god he took time to adjust in an environment where he could learn from his mistakes, what if the same thing would have happened to him out on the street and there was no protective gears and no fear from the opponent about going all the way and making maximum damage? would he have had time to adjust his game then and learn from it? Doubtfull. And at best would have been a very painfull and eye opening expeariance.

Did he learn valuable lessons? More than likely.

Did it make him an any worse BJJ player? No of course not, even top players in any MA make mistakes, errors and very often have to readjust their thinking once they see people who specialise like they do in a certain area.

So before calling someone a lier, engage the brain and think. Not everyone lies in order to make themselves look good, espeically using their real name (unlike some) on a public forum, that is just asking for trouble. Some people actually base their responces on personaly expeariances, and have gained good reputations all by themsleves without having to name drop and say they know this guy and the next guy really well. We can all play the name dropping game. The fact that Lucy chose not to does not mean she is lying, it just means she has the confidence to speak from expeariance without having to name drop and has respect for other peoples reputations.

Now in her responce she has given you a breif outline of just her MMA background, trust me when I say her background and expeariance goes far far deeper than that and she is in fact being very modest and I personally see no reason why she has to explain herself to you just because you think she is lying.

All I will say is this, you know what thay say about people who throw stones in glass houses?

Regards

Pat

Lucy O'Malley

27-May-2006, 03:16 PM

Britain at the moment seems to have quite a big problem with kids carrying knives , i know one teenager that has actualy shown me the knife he carries , also over the last few lessons i've taught i've asked the teenagers present if they know somone who carries a knife and every one of them said yes , so i think knives cannot be discounted anymore.

Thank-you for you post. I am glad there are others that can see what I am seeing.

I think people in the UK are just closing there eyes and hoping it goes away.

I am afraid people, it is not all cricket and scones anymore.

Why else did the UK announce a knife amnesty only this week on Thursday and yet another child has been stabbed outside his school yesturday (Friday).

So when people say, it depends where you live. I am afraid I can only answer that I live in the real world. Where else is there? I do not think a murderer or rapist is going to take into account where you live either.

Lots of love :love:

Lucy

Sankaku-jime

27-May-2006, 06:31 PM

So when people say, it depends where you live. I am afraid I can only answer that I live in the real world. Where else is there? I do not think a murderer or rapist is going to take into account where you live either.

believe it or not, many people spend there whole lives without living in fear, i waked through town today and got some shopping, i was neither mugged nor was i stabbed, at no time was i even threatened.

i train martial arts because i enjoy it, i cant account for every situation, and i cant seriously expect to beat the crap out of multiple armed opponents.
unless i am in a armed gang myself or carrying a machine gun

your best weapon in self defense is your mind, if you think there is a real chance of you or your family being knifed to death, then dont go out simple. of course you cant always avoid trouble, sometimes it just seems to find you,

during my 34 years i have been threatened with a knife twice, but only once was a knife visible. apart from that i have not been involved in a fight for 5 years or so.

there is a place for paranoia but it does not rule my life, nor even my training.

Rebel Wado

27-May-2006, 06:39 PM

...But if you get the chance to see the Police training video, 'Surviving Edged Weapons' this will deffinately open your eyes and show you in far more graphic detail...

Great video, even at how old it is now, it still applies.

Just to point out, the video does get into some strategies against edged weapons and to a very large degree I can say that it promotes the training in grappling skills when in close quarters with a knife. Such statements were in the video such as "you can't punch your way out of a knife fight" or something like that quote (I need to watch the video again to get the quote exactly right). Not entirely true, but for most people and situations, true enough to be of great concern if you are ever in a situation against an edged weapon.

The video does feature Dan Inosanto with a knife and frankly, it doesn't matter what you do, you are probably dead if he has a knife, you don't have a weapon, and I'll leave the rest for your imagination. However, some real life police statistics that are old now but relevant at the time of the video (and probably are still relevant) showed that most of those that survived a real attack got a hold of the weapon arm and never let go (somehow kept control of it).

Now just based on the premise that you have more of a fighting chance of survival if you do gain control of the weapon arm and the weapon with it, for many martial artists, I would think that they really haven't been training for that situation.

I'm not saying grappling is the answer, but I will say that it is a hell of a good place to start when it comes to learning how to control an arm and a weapon in that arm. Defending against other weapons (such as a second knife) is a step up from there, but you have to have some place to start.

Just a really big note here... Gracie fought in UFC when they did not have weight classes. I really don't care how simplified people try to put it, but I don't buy that things work just because someone pulled it off, I've got to know why, when, and how it works. I've got to know it is going to work with NO WEIGHT CLASSES at least enough to give a fighting chance of survival.

This is why I really believe in many of the things taught in grappling, especially BJJ/GJJ because it can work with no weight classes, against people twice your size.

This is also why I believe in striking to many vital areas such as to the eyes and throat because it can work with no weight classes, against people twice your size.

This is just my opinion, take it or leave it.

Lucy O'Malley

27-May-2006, 06:52 PM

there is a place for paranoia but it does not rule my life, nor even my training.

I am not living in paranoia either as I assume that is what you are getting at.

How about getting back on track. The subject we are all talking about is womens self defence and someone brought up the fact that grappling is all you need.

Do you have an opinion or are you just trolling?

It is not paranoia to consider the fact that a weapon may be brought into the situation. And it is not paranoia training for athat situation either, even if it is never to happen. Soldiers train for war, does not mean they will end up in one. The Government are always paranoid though, I mean why bother with an army.

I too, agree that people do martial arts for fun....I have already mentioned this earlier. I also enjoy martial arts.

But that is not what we are talking about. We are talking about self defence if you are attacked, which is different from the martial arts you are talking about. It is a whole different ball game mate.

Is it so paranoid to train realisticly for self defence even though there is a high chance you may not need it. The majority of the population never get attacked, but those that do wish they had the knowledge and how to deal with it realisticly. Not marching up and down a hall or rolling around the floor making funny noises.

'It is better to know it and not need it, than need it and not know it.' Wouldn't you agree? Or am I just being paranoid.

So unless you have a point to your citicism and perhaps an input of your own, you are in the wrong place.....you most certainly will not save lives with that attitude.

"it is alright girls, today we will learn how not to be paranoid"..."Don't bother training for self defence, what's the chances of something happening anyway and you are just being paranoid turning up today, so go home look after the babies, do the washing up and all the housework like you know you should be doing and anyway who gave you permission to come today".

"It is alll safe now girls we have been given the go ahead"

"It is official, Sankaku-jime told us it is all o.k outside".

Is this a womens self defence column or not? Maybe I need advice not criticism. So maybe you can tell us what we should be doing to prepare ourselves for a self defence situation should it accidentally occur as obviously it is not likely eh.

Lots of love :love:

Lucy

Lucy O'Malley

27-May-2006, 07:04 PM

Rebel Wado....I agree with you.

The way you talk about the grappling from your point of view is completly acceptable.

I think the method you were talking about in the video is the GUN method, grip, untie and neutralize...if I remember rightly. It was many years ago that I watched it too.

However, I do not consider that grappling.

I think I will watch it again now as I only really remember the graphics.

It just scares me to think people would automatically start struggling and throwing without weighing up the situation and allow people to believe they are going to pull off locks and breaks with promise of a good result.

Lots of love :love:

Lucy

Sankaku-jime

27-May-2006, 07:38 PM

I am not living in paranoia either as I assume that is what you are getting at.

i not sure about that you seem to be seeing knives and armed attacks around every corner.

How about getting back on track. The subject we are all talking about is womens self defence and someone brought up the fact that grappling is all you need.

grappling is not all you need, grappling alone is not enough

discusions have a a way of meanersing, its called a dialogue, so stop trying to dictate the progression of this thread

Do you have an opinion or are you just trolling?

yes lots, read my posts, i dont troll but i do enjoy troll baiting at times,

It is not paranoia to consider the fact that a weapon may be brought into the situation. And it is not paranoia training for athat situation either, even if it is never to happen. Soldiers train for war, does not mean they will end up in one. The Government are always paranoid though, I mean why bother with an army.

you cant spend your whole life training for that streetfight of armed attack that may never happen. that sort of mindset is just no sustainable,

if that is the only reason why you Martial Arts you will soon get bored, there has to be more to it than that.

I too, agree that people do martial arts for fun....I have already mentioned this earlier. I also enjoy martial arts.

well at least we agree on something.

So unless you have a point to your citicism and perhaps an input of your own, you are in the wrong place.....you most certainly will not save lives with that attitude.

this is a dialogue a discusion, not a monologue. we discuss we debate if you cant deal with that them maybe its you who is in the wrong place.

"it is alright girls, today we will learn how not to be paranoid"..."Don't bother training for self defence, what's the chances of something happening anyway and you are just being paranoid turning up today, so go home look after the babies, do the washing up and all the housework like you know you should be doing and anyway who gave you permission to come today".

paranoia has its place, but too much is just unhealthy,

"It is alll safe now girls we have been given the go ahead"

"It is official, Sankaku-jime told us it is all o.k outside".

humour its place too.

adouglasmhor

27-May-2006, 08:14 PM

To some extent you are right. It is used far too often and guys instinctively protect it. I tell my wife that it is not the place to go for. Instead, go for the knee. Most don't protect it.

I wouldn't tilt my head forward though. That would be a good way to get knocked out.

Sorry just realised I typed head but meant Hips, tilting your head forward will have no effect on your groin :o

bcullen

27-May-2006, 08:25 PM

Sorry just realised I typed head but meant Hips, tilting your head forward will have no effect on your groin :o

Could someone tilt their head forward on my groin and prove this? :p :D

BocaDeCalca

27-May-2006, 09:24 PM

It was a Black Eagle Society meetingt....

Disregarding the dorkiness of that name in itself, you've pretty much proved now that...

Anything else you think I am lying about.....by all means just ask. I have nothing to hide.

..You're unable to backup your above claim, or your claim of 2 MMA championships. Sherdog and Fcfighter list no "lucy o'malley" in their databases, and a google search for Lucy O'malley AND MMA OR Vale Tudo turns up nothing.

Lucy O'Malley

27-May-2006, 09:49 PM

i not sure about that you seem to be seeing knives and armed attacks around every corner.

So by advising people to consider the possibility of a knife in an attack is somehow seeing them around every corner....get a grip.

you cant spend your whole life training for that streetfight of armed attack that may never happen. that sort of mindset is just no sustainable,

if that is the only reason why you Martial Arts you will soon get bored, there has to be more to it than that.

And at what stage did I say that was what I done?

I have been doing martial arts for 12 years now and I am not bored yet. How could I get bored when so many entertaining people like yourself pass by so often. :D

I get the feeling you are just trying to pick arguments wherever you go...now that needs some serious looking into.

Read what you see, do not try to evaluate further and deeper into it and make character assumptions.

What you see is what you get with me.

Lots of love :love:

Lucy

Lucy O'Malley

27-May-2006, 10:03 PM

Disregarding the dorkiness of that name in itself, you've pretty much proved now that...

Proved what exactly. And somehow you think Dog Brothers sounds much better. Don't diss what you know nothing about. Perhaps you should speak to Marc Denny first before throwing insults at me.

..You're unable to backup your above claim, or your claim of 2 MMA championships. Sherdog and Fcfighter list no "lucy o'malley" in their databases, and a google search for Lucy O'malley AND MMA OR Vale Tudo turns up nothing.

When did I say 2 MMA titles? :confused:

So if it is not listed in Sherdog and FcFighter it obviously did not happen then.
Why don't you just ask Peter McQueen, he was there with some of his fighters, fighting for British Titles too....so tell him their titles don't exist too.

And anyway, I am sure you know him personally, so just pick up the phone and ask...it will solve all this petty BS. It is not nice trying to take away a hard earnt achievement from someone.

I fought my heart out to have you tell me I was not there. I don't think so.

I hope once it is confirmed to you.....you come back and apologise, because if you are any kind of MMA fighter, you know it is not easy fighting in the ring with limited rules under pressure and then to be told you are lying and it never could of happened.

So who the hell are you and what authority do you have to say I did not gain the title I was presented.

Easy sitting behind a pseudo name on a keyboard spouting out BS and insults and attempting to strip people of titles because it does not suit you or your point of view.

Perhaps you should stop for a sec and consider the fact you could actually be wrong.

I look forward to the apology.

Lots of love :love:

Lucy

Matt_Bernius

27-May-2006, 11:07 PM

Disregarding the dorkiness of that name in itself, you've pretty much proved now that...Wow. So nice ad homium. Especially considering you've already mentioned the Dog Brothers. Let's see there are also the Manilla Pitbulls. Do me a favor and talk crap about the dorkiness of their names. I can recommend a few people. Start with Poidog (make sure to point out how dorky dog brothers handles are).

The Black Eagles are an internationally known group.

..You're unable to backup your above claim, or your claim of 2 MMA championships. Sherdog and Fcfighter list no "lucy o'malley" in their databases, and a google search for Lucy O'malley AND MMA OR Vale Tudo turns up nothing.She's no more able to than you're particularly able to back up that you've ever attended a Blauer class.

Look Lucy said she won a title in what I'm willing to bet was a small UK promotion in 2001. Ok Sherdog isn't the be all and end all. Considering that I've been to small promotion events here in the states as late as '02 that didn't register on anyones radar, it's not difficult to believe that what ever event Lucy fought at didn't make it to the net.

Lucy and Pat have a heck of a lot to lose by lying here. Both are well known and well regarded martial artists in the UK (so much so that I've heard about Pat from totally unrelated sources here in the US).

So basically you don't both to refute arguements that violate your closely held views and instead take this route. Don't say much for your arguement.

- Matt

oosh

27-May-2006, 11:30 PM

"Originally Posted by Lucy O'Malley

It was a Black Eagle Society meeting....

'Boca'
Disregarding the dorkiness of that name in itself"

lol that comment pretty much somes up the sort of person you're dealing with Lucy, absolutely priceless :D Ignorant on so many levels.

NewLearner

28-May-2006, 12:31 AM

i not sure about that you seem to be seeing knives and armed attacks around every corner.

In case you missed it, this is a martial arts website, a self defense forum, and a thread about women's self defense. It is not paranoid to assume that a person should be prepared for knives or weapons in such a discussion. It is reality. According to various sources, weapons such as knives are used in up to 25% of attacks in schools and in over 5% of all school fights. Those are places that are supposed to be weapon free. Or how about that 53% of victims of assaults with injuries had a knife used against them? http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/admin/books/chapterfiles/Jun05ffmauser.pdf Although you may not be living in the land of paranoria, it doesn't seem like you are living in the land of reality either.

discusions have a a way of meanersing, its called a dialogue, so stop trying to dictate the progression of this thread

But you on the other hand should dictate the progression of a thread?

yes lots, read my posts, i dont troll but i do enjoy troll baiting at times,

Troll baiting is basically trolling. Which is against the rules here.

I get the feeling you are just trying to pick arguments wherever you go...now that needs some serious looking into.

I agree with Lucy's statement.

TigerDude

28-May-2006, 05:39 AM

You people have positively killed this thread.

BocaDeCalca

28-May-2006, 06:13 AM

The Black Eagles are an internationally known group.

I don't care. You could do hours of knockdown karate in your back yard every day, "The Black Eagle Society" would still sound like the syndicate that puts on the secret fighting tournament some 3D Beat-um-up on PS2 is based on.

She's no more able to than you're particularly able to back up that you've ever attended a Blauer class.

I offered to PM you relevant details, and it's not an extraordinary claim to have attended a sample class.
Winning 2 MMA titles and one of your students beating up a "high profile" BJJ guy is.
And that's really all that needs saying about this, and from this point on, anyone who reads can tell that neither O'Malley can provide any evidence of their claims.

Alansmurf

28-May-2006, 06:21 AM

http://www.wimp.com/girlsboxing/
:D

BocaDeCalca

28-May-2006, 06:24 AM

So what was the response they were advocating?
Something involving grabbing the bottom of the foot and tipping them back that way. It was a long time ago, so my memory may not be accurate.

So you didn't work any escalation/de-escalation stuff?

No.

Did you do any SPEAR work?

A tiny bit, with the pads.

What about pain managment?

No.

Pre-contact cue work?

There was a drill where the instructor swung a pad at you from your peripheral vision.

As far as the drilling, was it pad work?

Some of it.

Let me make this clear, I have a generally positive opinion of blauer. The high gear suit is great and he advocates aliveness.
It's probable that this class, they were just waiting until the students were "ready" for noncompliance, which I personally have no patience to wait around for.

BocaDeCalca

28-May-2006, 06:27 AM

Actually grappling only tends to dominate amoung the lower level practioners. If you watch the upper talents such as Top Dog (Eric Knaus), they very rarely go to the ground (unless they choose to).

Salty, Lonely and Crafty Dog's highlights say otherwise.

BocaDeCalca

28-May-2006, 06:39 AM

Now, back to the original topic.

The reality of fighting ("physical self defense" if you prefer) is that there is thrashing, grappling, struggling for position and use of...wait for it...STRENGTH. It is an athletic activity that often leaves you winded, and I say this as someone considered as having good endurance.

The point of training is NOT to learn how to win "without using strength". Such an idea, if not in itself a non-concept (like "antigrappling"), is at least very impractical.

The point of training is to learn to use your strength more efficiently.

An athletic delivery system is essential for escaping bad positions (which is in turn, essential for women's self defense).

Questions about knives and pre-conflict escalation, while technically true, are irrelevant to my point, which concerns PHYSICAL ability.

Sankaku-jime

28-May-2006, 09:43 AM

OK enough squabling,

Martial Arts styles that are better for women for Self Defense?

Women come in many different sizes and tempraments, as do men,

what style's are best for Women, it depends on the woman, personaly some good ground skill ie BJJ everyone woman should be taught some of these.

apart from that a lot comes down to your personality and what type of training you enjoy,

Lucy O'Malley

28-May-2006, 10:56 AM

BJJ is a good martial art for women and I also believe FMA to be a great martial art for women also. These are both arts where size does not matter and you can have as much effect as the next man, if your technique is correct.

However, which attributes would you consider important and how would you teach them in a short self defence course for general public to learn and take away with them?

Lots of love :love:

Lucy

Lucy O'Malley

28-May-2006, 11:07 AM

http://www.wimp.com/girlsboxing/
:D

I love that first punch.

I think you should put it in the natural movement thread :D .

One because it is natural for women to swing handbags in such fashion and two, because it requires no training whatsoever. :D

The natural movement of a windmill. :D

Lots of love :love:

Lucy

Lucy O'Malley

28-May-2006, 01:21 PM

If you get a chance go to www.dogbrothers.com and view the clip for knife rumination.

Not to watch the knife part unless you want to, but if you go straight to the end of the clip there is a head butt.

Earlier in this thread there was mention that the head butt did not work for that lady, but if you see how effective even an almost accidental head butt is, you can see why they teach it as an option. When it does land it can be very effective. :bang: :cry:

Like all good techniques though, sometimes they fail you for different reasons so you need back up techniques too. :eek:

Lots of love :love:

Lucy

Matt_Bernius

28-May-2006, 01:36 PM

I offered to PM you relevant details, and it's not an extraordinary claim to have attended a sample class.She provided contact names for her title. And I'm sure that she would give you the BJJer's name if you PM'd her. She just didn't want to make it public. Just like you.

Winning 2 MMA titles and one of your students beating up a "high profile" BJJ guy is. And that's really all that needs saying about this, and from this point on, anyone who reads can tell that neither O'Malley can provide any evidence of their claims.Sigh. Again she said one title, not two. And she never said that the student "beat up" a high profile BJJ guy. In fact they said the BJJ tapped the student. It just took him a bit and he got hit in the process. So clearly your not reading carefully enough.

As far as grappling in the DB clips, note that in most cases (at least with Denny) he rarely was the person who shot in. Usually it was his opponent, crashing-and-bashing through a number of head shots (again something not possible if the helment and gloves were not in place) and then Denny would roll. But even when Denny rolled he was typically stick grappling (ie using the stick to submit and hit on the ground).

Boca, you're predisposed to see from one perspective and I really question your willingness to step outside your current lens to look at other perspectives. I'm not saying this to be cruel. Rather, it just seems like your so entrenched in one view that we're all just yelling back and forth rather than having a conversation about these subjects.

- Matt

Oversoul

28-May-2006, 07:07 PM

When my husband was sent this picture, He was sent it as they knew he was writing a book on edged weapons....and it was sent as a police training set of photographs by a legitimate source who told him it was in fact a police officer.

And if you look at the end of your link that you supplied it also says they think it originated from a police training programme.

Yes, but they only speculated that it might be the aftermath of a fight between inmates, nothing about the man being a police officer himself. The people at Snopes tend to be pretty good at finding things, but I am willing to accept the possibility that they failed to acquire the information from your legitimate source. They've been wrong before, just not very often...

If somehow you think I am misleading and that this is not the type of damage done by a knife on the street, then I am sorry.

I didn't say that.

But if you get the chance to see the Police training video, 'Surviving Edged Weapons' this will deffinately open your eyes and show you in far more graphic detail.

Look you are not just going to get scratched....you do realise this don't you?

I didn't say that either.

Knives kill and you need to be aware of them, what other point do I need to make. Now whether it be a Policeman, an Airman or a prison inmate.

I thought you just said you were sure that this was a policeman.

This is still what happens when you grapple a knife. The knife does not take your position in society into account, or your unbeatable martial arts skills, regardless of style.

It looks like it COULD have been someone that tried to fight barehanded when his opponent had a knife. But it could also be someone that was attacked from behind with a knife. Or it could be one of two guys in a knife fight, who actually had a knife himself. The picture alone is not enough to say exactly what happened. And the Snopes article didn't confirm that it was a police officer who had tried to tangle with a knife-wielding miscreant. They didn't claim it couldn't have been either. If you insist that a legitimate source confirms it, I'm perfectly willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

But that was my only reason for posting "probably not." I made no statements as to whether those wounds were caused by a knife (sure looks like it to me, but I'm not an expert) or whether knives are effective.

Pat OMalley

09-Aug-2006, 11:28 PM

i not sure about that you seem to be seeing knives and armed attacks around every corner. To ignore knife defence is just plain stupidity.

you cant spend your whole life training for that streetfight of armed attack that may never happen. that sort of mindset is just no sustainable,Or would it be more senisble to know it and not need it, as opposed to not know it and need it?

Just thought I would pop this on this thread for you as you seem to think that attacks on the street with a knife is a rare thing and only the stuff for other people get paranoid about.

Have a read and see what you think.

KNIFE TOLL IS SOARING

KNIFE attacks by strangers have soared dramatically in a year, a report reveals today.

Blades were used in 51,780 violent assualts where victims did not know their attacker - up from 33,400 the year before.

Muggings at knife-point leaped 17,730 to 42,020 from 2005 to 2006, according to crime experts.

Roberies using knives rose from 25,500 to 40,430. The study also found that a "significant minority" of schoolkids carried knives.

And the trend may be growing, specialists from the Centre for Crime and Justice Studies found.

Their research also suggested that knife amnesties do not work.
The report said: "There is insufficient evidence than an amnesty or increase in sentence length will help cut knife crime. The Governement's strategy to takle the problem is haphazard,"

Researchers found a lack of "high quality" and "reliable" data on the nature and number of offences.

Shadow Home Secretary David Davis said: "Soaring violent crime is a scourge on society. This shows the Goverment's failure to tackle violent crime. The public is paying the price."

Recent high-profile knife attacks include the murder of Special Constable Nisha Patel-Nasri and 15 year old schoolboy Kiyan Prince.

Now tell me again about not worring about a knife being used in a street situation?

Just a little something to re-evaluate when it comes to being attacked on the street.

Best regards

Pat