Two person technique hyung?

[JSun]

A friend of mine and I are learning the Eagle Claw 108 posture two man chin na form. We got about 20 postures into the form when we realized there are a tremendous amount of Kuk Sool techniques inside the kung fu form. I posted a previous thread regarding counters and escapes from techniques, but I thought I'd start a new one regarding this subject. One posture is an arm bar over the shoulder, similar to the one in Sohn Mahk Soo #7. Well, in this particular form, the escape is to slide over the opponent's shoulder, counter grab his wrist and put him in a small hand wrap, similar to Ahn Sohn Mahk Soo #6. It's a countinuously flowing form that has one opponent apply a lock, then the other opponent escape and apply a counter lock, over and over again. We thought it was a much more practical way to learn realistic joint locking techniques against a moving person. Is there a 2 person hyung in KSW? When we get the details of the Chin Na form worked out, I'll post a video of it. I think it will amaze some people how many KS locking techniques were jacked from CMA and then trademarked.

[KSWarrior]

I'm not sure that any Chinese Martial Arts has "Jacked" anything from Kuk Sool. If you look at alot of the higher level Kuk Sool hyungs alot of the movements resemble Chinese Wu Shu/ Kung Fu forms. All of these martial arts pre-date Kuk Sool. Remember Kuk Sool is just a big melting pot of all of the traditional Korean Martial Arts. Who know where those martial arts got their techniques from. We would have to do some very extensive research to truely discover where these techniques orginated!

As for your technique question, my instructor has created several drills for us to develope, counter and react to joint locking. I'm not sure if there are any set kuk sool techniques that deal with this matter. I think it is up to your instructor to provide you with the information/technical skill for joint locking. However alot of the higher level hyungs addresses mulitiple attacks, joint locks, redirection and counters. I think that is the beauty of the art!

[KSW_123]

First of all I'd like to say that the previous thread you started was a great question and I wish more people had commented on it.
My opinion is that the techniques are hard enough at first without your partner moving. You should be able to have a gorilla grab you on Sohn Mohk Soo #7 be able to do it without him countering, just as long as doesn't move his feet. Three possible counters that fit this criteria are dropping the body, bending your elbow and hitting the collarbone, and finally a rear naked choke. To do these counters requires a "mistake" on the part of the technician, but I think it takes a long time to weed out all of these mistakes.

[JSun]

I'm not sure that any Chinese Martial Arts has "Jacked" anything from Kuk Sool. If you look at alot of the higher level Kuk Sool hyungs alot of the movements resemble Chinese Wu Shu/ Kung Fu forms. All of these martial arts pre-date Kuk Sool. Remember Kuk Sool is just a big melting pot of all of the traditional Korean Martial Arts. Who know where those martial arts got their techniques from. We would have to do some very extensive research to truely discover where these techniques orginated!

That's the point I was trying to make, actually. These particular chin na techniques have to date back centuries before the KSW curriculum was compiled. I can see the inevitable CMA influence as well as the Japanese influence on Korean traditional MA considering the history of these powers invading the peninsula.

As for your technique question, my instructor has created several drills for us to develope, counter and react to joint locking. I'm not sure if there are any set kuk sool techniques that deal with this matter. I think it is up to your instructor to provide you with the information/technical skill for joint locking. However alot of the higher level hyungs addresses mulitiple attacks, joint locks, redirection and counters. I think that is the beauty of the art!

I'm bringing some distancing drills to class this week I picked up from Long Fist. I hope the instructor's willing to try them out. He's pretty good about listening to our ideas. I'm anxious to learn the higher level hyungs and see what all they offer.

You should be able to have a gorilla grab you on Sohn Mohk Soo #7, be able to do it without him countering, just as long as doesn't move his feet.

That's exactly the issue I have with KS techniques at this point. The setups for the technique execution are "a bit" less than realistic. I get that the finer aspects of the techniques take mucho time to iron out, but why not train ways to execute techniques from realistic scenerios, such as a clinch? I try to work things like this out on my own with friends, but I believe it should be included in the training we do at the dojang as well.

[JSun]

You are right on this one, but realistic means different things to different people. Is it for self defense, grappling, technique sparring, fun ... So I think you are finally the one who is responsible to take your practice to the level or place you want to go.

On a random note, have you ever tried Eue Bohk Soo #3 without the use of the left hand? Not as effective but you'll have more chances to use it.

Good point. I tend to think of the techniques aspect of KS in self defense applications. I think it's fun to practice them, but ultimately I'd like to be able to use them effectively in a practical defense situation.

No, I haven't tried EBS#3 without using the left hand. I can see how the mechanics of the lock would work that way, though. Just out of curiousity, what's your take on KSW starting righthanded on all techniques? You've been dealing with the art much longer than I have so I figured you'd have an educated opinion on that aspect. Why not teach each technique R and L handed?

[JKN-Taylor]

"Why not teach each technique R and L handed?"

They do... at fifth Degree ^^

probably for the same reason they don't teach both directions of Ki Cho Hyung to a whitebelt... There is SO much precision required, you could literally focus on the precise (practical) application of one underbelt technique, on your familiar hand, for an entire day and still have a KJN point out flaws in your posture, footing, points, locks, follow-ups(big one for me :()...ect.

I used to think the same thing, though... until I realised how much more precision I would need if I ever intended to use any of my techniques IRL.

It's hard for me somtimes... I'm left handed and always thinking (man, I'd be so much better with this sword form if I could only use my left hand)

[davefly76]

Just out of curiousity, what's your take on KSW starting righthanded on all techniques? You've been dealing with the art much longer than I have so I figured you'd have an educated opinion on that aspect. Why not teach each technique R and L handed?

thats a good question. i have done techniques left handed and i do teach them if the student is left handed but the basic wrist and arm locks come naturally when you've done them right handed enough times.

have you done hyungs starting in bang eo ja se?

:)

[KSW_123]

Just out of curiousity, what's your take on KSW starting righthanded on all techniques? You've been dealing with the art much longer than I have so I figured you'd have an educated opinion on that aspect. Why not teach each technique R and L handed?

We start with the right hand because of probability, 90% of people are right handed. Therefore if you are an attacker, your big punches are more likely to be right handed. This is why all kick punch techniques use the right side kick punch combo as the canonical form. With grabs the bad guy will want to dominate your right hand with his left and pound you with his right.

Think of this, you are wrestling around with some guy and you notice he has knife in a sheath. You have 1/2 second to pick which hand to dominate so he won't be able to get to the knife. What hand would you pick?

I have found it to be surprisingly easy to transfer a technique I know WELL to the left side, and conversely incredibly difficult to transfer techniques I am not good at. I have noticed this pattern in others, so I know I am not alone on this. Some day, we all need to practice with the opposite side, when that day is different for everyone.

One trick on learning techniques to make it easier to change sides is never use the terms "right" or "left" when you talk to yourself mentally through the technique. Instead subsitute words like "inside", "outside", "through" or "around". If you mentally tell yourself these things while performing the technique you will not have to flip all your rights and lefts in your mind when you switch sides. You just think the same stuff you have been on the other side. You will be surpised how huge of a difference this makes in your ability to easily transfer techniques to the other side.

I hope this is helpful.

[JKN-Taylor]

One trick on learning techniques to make it easier to change sides is never use the terms "right" or "left" when you talk to yourself mentally through the technique. Instead subsitute words like "inside", "outside", "through" or "around". If you mentally tell yourself these things while performing the technique you will not have to flip all your rights and lefts in your mind when you switch sides. You just think the same stuff you have been on the other side. You will be surpised how huge of a difference this makes in your ability to easily transfer techniques to the other side.

I hope this is helpful.

so true ^^ I always think of my opposite side Hyung and the few techniques I've tried, as "Mirrored" it seems to help my brain process it more smoothly

[JSun]

have you done hyungs starting in bang eo ja se?

Yes, sir, I have. I practice all my forms from both the offensive and defensive stance. I was told that once one reaches JKN hyungs are performed from bang eo jah se, so I figured I'd get a head start on it. I find it easier to think of the form as mirrored from the offensive stance when working throught it as well.

It's hard for me somtimes... I'm left handed and always thinking (man, I'd be so much better with this sword form if I could only use my left hand)

Man, working right handed that much you must be close to ambidextrous at this point :D

We start with the right hand because of probability, 90% of people are right handed. Therefore if you are an attacker, your big punches are more likely to be right handed. This is why all kick punch techniques use the right side kick punch combo as the canonical form. With grabs the bad guy will want to dominate your right hand with his left and pound you with his right.

Valid point, but have you ever boxed a southpaw? Talk about setting yourself up for mean left cross. I'll try the different terminology when practicing mentally. It's a great suggestion. Thanks.

[KSW_123]

Valid point, but have you ever boxed a southpaw? Talk about setting yourself up for mean left cross. I'll try the different terminology when practicing mentally. It's a great suggestion. Thanks.


That's the problem with probabliity, nasty surprises happen when you take it as certainty.

Yeah, luckily I've been able to train with quite a few lefties.

[Chuin]

ALL

The reason we learn the techniques in a static posture is this is the simplest form. Like all things you have to start at the beginning.
About being able to do the techniques on someone big or strong. We learn kicking and punching too. It’s easy to add the punch and kick to son mok soo.
He will either let go or be distracted long enough to do a technique.

I would guess that if your kicking and punching are good the attacker may never need the son mok soo technique?

I think KSW trains each group separate in the beginning. kicking punching falling techniques so that you can focus entirely on the understanding the concepts and principles involved.
I've seen some styles that teach kick 4 punches and grab trip to a takedown.
But usually their kicks and punches are all poorly executed, possibly if suppose they never focus on each group to develop some proficiency in each grouping. That's my guess. I've heard it takes 15 years to develop a good straight punch. Maybe it takes that long or maybe not. What do you think?

[baubin2]

I am pretty good with my forms on both sides. Of course, some of the stuff like tornado kicks and spin kicks are not as good on my left as my right, but at least I never have trouble with knowing what to do next or which arm/leg to use. I want to try my techniques on my left side, but I never seem to get the chance, mostly because nobody else seems to be interested or even seems to have considered the matter.

And yes, changing the mental terminology helps greatly. I use "front" and "back", "inside" and "outside", "near" and "far" all the time. Well, what I usually do is use "left" and "right" initially, and then switch up the terminology when I'm trying to learn it on my other side. "left" and "right" tend to be pretty instinctive distinguishers.

[davefly76]

I am pretty good with my forms on both sides.


he he. just wait till you try guhm moo hyung :p

[JSun]

I've heard it takes 15 years to develop a good straight punch. Maybe it takes that long or maybe not. What do you think?

Personally, I think KS teaches straight punches completely wrong. Western boxing has taken the most scientific method to training punching. Try executing a straight punch without chambering the shoulder up to guard the head and see how many times you catch a hook to the melon. I understand the concept of training to punch towards the solar plexus, but that's about as technical as I've seen the training in class.

[KSW_123]

The reason we learn the techniques in a static posture is this is the simplest form. Like all things you have to start at the beginning.


This is very true, but with two important caveats. First is the element of fun and interest. Everyone is different in the way that is most fun to learn and the things that keep them motivated to practice more. Second is the trust in the path you are taking. If there are ten steps to attain perfection in something then you could argue that you should do them in order, i.e. 1,2,3,...10. But what if step 1 takes a year and the person gets bored and quits? That is no good. So jumping to step 2 makes sense to keep the person's interest up. Jumping too far ahead could be a problem because the person might be lost, but on the other hand it can help to insure that you are on the right path. I personally like to use a feedback cycle where I go a little bit ahead and then feed that info back into a previous step. In reality I think we need to go through this feedback cycle many times before we can get IT right, whatever IT is.

[JSun]

I personally like to use a feedback cycle where I go a little bit ahead and then feed that info back into a previous step. In reality I think we need to go through this feedback cycle many times before we can get IT right, whatever IT is.

Man, me too. I think that method of training maintains the interest as well as reiterates what's been previously learned. The art is comprehensive. It's like doing math homework. If you don't have the basics down, you can't do the more difficult aspects of the subject. However, when you work on the more difficult aspects of the subject, you learn the finer elements of the basics.

[KSW_123]

Personally, I think KS teaches straight punches completely wrong. Western boxing has taken the most scientific method to training punching.

Think about bias. This statement is correct when biased toward fighting. Now think about the first punch in a possible self defense situation. Then punching from the hip doesn't seem so stupid. I read a book by Peyton Quinn that talked about this. (this guy runs a reality fighting camp in Colorodo) In there he said that the first response punch by you has advantages from coming low. It is unexpected for one. As well as below the field of vision of the pissed off guy in front of your face. It is also very difficult to punch from where we are taught in the forms. Therefore it takes a lot of practice to make it strong. When it comes to punching in the horse stance. That is dissasociation training so that your arm is seperate from your body. Which is exactly what boxers don't want, right? On the good side though, it teaches how to hit if we can't get our body behind it, say if you are on your back on the ground, held by someone, etc...

In the forms, we punch the way we do for many reasons, but one you may not of thought of is proprioception, i.e. the ability to tell where all your body parts are without having to look. Furthermore your teacher can easily see if you are correct or not since there is an agreed upon placement for everthing in the form.

One more thing. Punch the heavy bag as hard as can twenty times in a row with your most powerful punch (hands not wrapped). Then try the same thing with it coming from your waist. You should notice that there is no fear of damaging your own hand in one of these two cases.

I am not saying don't practice punching the boxing way or any other way, but I hope I helped you appreciate why you are doing what you do in KS.

[JSun]

Well, it gives me some insight that I hadn't considered before. I practice punching both ways, actually. With and without the bag. Can't hurt to try and cover it all, can it?

[baubin2]

One thing I've noticed is that when you chamber your punches (when they come from the hip), although they will be more powerful, you are also tipping off your opponent as to what you are doing. Getting off a good powerful punch is not very useful if your opponent is not there because they saw it coming. However, if you don't chamber, although you are more likely to hit your opponent, you are also less likely to actually hurt them. Might make a good distraction technique though, jab at their face, and then come at them from the other side with a good, powerful, chambered punch. Advantages and disadvantages to both ways I guess.

[Wolf]

You actually get plenty of power without chambering. A right cross isn't chambered it it's a knockout punch. If you watch professional fighters, they don't chamber at all because it does as you say. It takes time, and telegraphs what's coming.

[JSun]

You know, I used chambered in the wrong context. My mistake. I was actually refering to rolling the shoulder up, not chambering the punch inside. :o :o
I don't remember what the technical term is for the mechanics of that portion of the punch. It's really more of a defensive aspect inside the punch, as opposed to focusing on where the power of the punch eminates from.

[KSW_123]

You know, I used chambered in the wrong context. My mistake. I was actually refering to rolling the shoulder up, not chambering the punch inside. :o :o

Don't feel bad, it is a pain to describe motions with words. Funny enough, I would consider a boxer's cross as a chambered punch. Not in the sense of the elbow being so far back, but the shoulder is already back and makes a forward movement that you don't get in a jab.

[ember]

I'm still getting turned around on that one. But of course, I'm just beginning :).

he he. just wait till you try guhm moo hyung :p

[Chuin]

This is very true, but with two important caveats. First is the element of fun and interest. Everyone is different in the way that is most fun to learn and the things that keep them motivated to practice more. Second is the trust in the path you are taking. If there are ten steps to attain perfection in something then you could argue that you should do them in order, i.e. 1,2,3,...10. But what if step 1 takes a year and the person gets bored and quits? That is no good. So jumping to step 2 makes sense to keep the person's interest up. Jumping too far ahead could be a problem because the person might be lost, but on the other hand it can help to insure that you are on the right path. I personally like to use a feedback cycle where I go a little bit ahead and then feed that info back into a previous step. In reality I think we need to go through this feedback cycle many times before we can get IT right, whatever IT is.

I think that while I'm working on something, say techniques 1,2,3 that when I move on to tech. 4,5,6,7, that usually 1,2,3 get better, as I have time to reflect and the increased repetitions make 1,2,3, better; but I get to learn 4,5,6,7 to keep the boredom factor down.

[You Won Hwa]

Why not teach each technique R and L handed?
Some instructors do teach techniques R & L handed when teaching the techniques at the level at which they are taught. Not at MY school, but one I visited while traveling. I think it gives one a new perspective on the technique, rather like forms from opposite stance.

[Wolf]

At my previous school, it was a requirement to learn both sides. We just did it at the next belt up. For example:
Testing for Yellow: Ki Bohn Soo from Kong Kyuk Jah Se
Testing for Blue: Sohn Mohk Soo, Eue Bohk Soo from Kong Kyuk Jah Se, and then Ki Bohn Soo from both sides.

[ember]

Brian mentions elsewhere that for his DBN test, the PSBN calling the test had him do Ki Bohn Soo and Sohn Mok Soo left-side. But we usually aren't taught and don't practice them that way in class.

I had one test around brown belt where completely by accident, I asked my partner to grab my left hand for Sohn Pae Gi. It felt completely natural, but then I am also left-handed. It wasn't until we were moving on to Ki Bohn Soo that I realized what I'd done.

The same PSBN recommended to us a long time back that we should practice left-side up to the second-to-last form. In other words, a blue belt should start practicing Ki Cho Hyung left-side. A red belt should add Cho Geup Hyung. But somewhere around DBN, I don't think that guideline works anymore.

So I've got the forms up through Dae Geup Hyung. Left-side is not as good, especially the kicks Baubin mentions. I've also worked left-side weapons at home, but I haven't tried the techniques. That's something to try next chance I get.

At my previous school, it was a requirement to learn both sides. We just did it at the next belt up. For example:
Testing for Yellow: Ki Bohn Soo from Kong Kyuk Jah Se
Testing for Blue: Sohn Mohk Soo, Eue Bohk Soo from Kong Kyuk Jah Se, and then Ki Bohn Soo from both sides.

[psbn matt]

Beak pal ki hyung is impossible on the left side!

[You Won Hwa]

Beak pal ki hyung is impossible on the left side!

And if your instructor were to hear you say that, would you then be spending your next training session working on that? We CAN do more than we think we can, especially after enough practice! ;)

[Choiyoungwoo]

Doing hyung or tech on the opposite side is challenging no doubt. But I have enough to do just getting it correct on one side. I think it is a great way to keep people busy, but I would rather teach/train to the point of understanding and acquiring what the skills are designed for. baek pahl ki hyung is a hyung that is deeply connected to breathing pattern and meditation on the 108 torments so as to purify the practioners spirit. Full study of this hyung will require much ki training, and learning to apply the right breathing to the movement( as are all of the ksw forms) and it seems that without these things, left or right doesn't really matter. if you are going to spend all the effort to learn it on the left. why not do it completely on the right first, so you actually "know" the hyung.

[You Won Hwa]

... but I would rather teach/train to the point of understanding and acquiring what the skills are designed for.... if you are going to spend all the effort to learn it on the left. why not do it completely on the right first, so you actually "know" the hyung.
There are lots of ways to learn something. Different techniques work for different people. Not only are there visual, auditory, and kenisthetic learners, but sometimes, different ways of presenting information will just click with different student. I never suggested learning a form opposite stance before learning it all the way through on the regular stance, but that would be a method of learning that might work better for some.

I've heard that the way forms used to be taught was by drilling "mini forms" right and left sided, then just putting them together into a form. The student would already know both sides.

[Choiyoungwoo]

There are lots of ways to learn something. Different techniques work for different people. Not only are there visual, auditory, and kenisthetic learners, but sometimes, different ways of presenting information will just click with different student. I never suggested learning a form opposite stance before learning it all the way through on the regular stance, but that would be a method of learning that might work better for some.

I don't disagree.... but is that an effort to teach from a different perspective, add variety,or just a way to keep you busy? Of course the teacher will point out all the benefits , I do it also, as we do both sides from time to time. But, I think there is enough in ksw and doing everything opposite side just doubles the amount of busy work without learning deeper. I think most Black belts have enough to do. Think about it,,,,just about the time you have the hyung memorized, then you train it hard to the point that the movements are accurate to the best of your understanding, and you begin to be able preform it so it flows well w/o thought, you are to the point where it is time to apply breath application, internal aspects, etc(higher level stuff),,,but wait we need to start over from the other side....?!?!?!?!?!!? come on!!! now you have a bunch of people who can do huyng left and right but still know very little about what they are supposed to be doing... great exercise/experience ? yes. added insight to the purpose of hyung? i'm not so sure,mabye a little..... worth the time considerining all the other things we need to do in ksw? ????????? Thats up to you to decide???

The easiest way to teach somebody nothing, try to teach them everything ......

[psbn matt]

does anyone one know what the 108 torments of budhisum we are ment to be exercising in beak pal ki are?

[ember]

The most important application we've seen so far for opposite-side hyung has been for teaching, especially teaching small children. Like last night, I was working with two young boys on cho geup hyung. Up to a point, doing it beside or in front of them helps. But eventually, you need to see them and they need to see you.

So turn around. Except that if I'm doing the form right-side, they're going to think they should be following along left-side. So I switched when I turned around.

Maybe it doesn't benefit me (yet), but it benefited them.

I don't disagree.... but is that an effort to teach from a different perspective, add variety,or just a way to keep you busy? Of course the teacher will point out all the benefits , I do it also, as we do both sides from time to time. But, I think there is enough in ksw and doing everything opposite side just doubles the amount of busy work without learning deeper. I think most Black belts have enough to do. Think about it,,,,just about the time you have the hyung memorized, then you train it hard to the point that the movements are accurate to the best of your understanding, and you begin to be able preform it so it flows well w/o thought, you are to the point where it is time to apply breath application, internal aspects, etc(higher level stuff),,,but wait we need to start over from the other side....?!?!?!?!?!!? come on!!! now you have a bunch of people who can do huyng left and right but still know very little about what they are supposed to be doing... great exercise/experience ? yes. added insight to the purpose of hyung? i'm not so sure,mabye a little..... worth the time considerining all the other things we need to do in ksw? ????????? Thats up to you to decide???

The easiest way to teach somebody nothing, try to teach them everything ......

[You Won Hwa]

But, I think there is enough in ksw and doing everything opposite side just doubles the amount of busy work without learning deeper.
Yes, I think that is a wonderful thing about Kuk Sool Won, there is so much to learn. That is also what some people don't like about it. I've heard some say they would rather learn only some techniques better, some would like to learn forms not at all.

Opposite stance forms practice may not add dimension to your understanding, but who are you to say that it adds to no ones?

I'll admit, it isn't my favorite activity. I imagine I'll get better at it, though, and start to enjoy it more.


The easiest way to teach somebody nothing, try to teach them everything ......
I've certainly had the experience of feeling overwhelmed by the sheer amount of material, and I'm not just talking about Kuk Sool Won. But there comes a time when the mind gets organized, and things fall in to place. (Hopefully. :-) )

There is a difference between a student complaining about a class activity, and an instructor deciding what and how to teach. In class, it isn't up to students to decide if something is useful. When an instructor says to do something, it is for students to do the best they can. (Keeping in mind that everything REALLY is optional. As students, we don't HAVE to do what the instructors say. We are paying for the priviledge of being there, learning from people with more knowledge, perspective, and experience.)

You DO practice outside of class? There, you don't have to do activities you don't enjoy, or you can get a better handle on stuff that was hard.

[Unknown Entity]

KJN Sung Jin once said that he studied Ki Cho Hyung for 6 months solid and still didn't understand it completely! And this was him saying it recently!

I've spent close to a year practicing and refining Ki cho hyung myself and only now do I feel that i'm am starting to get to grips with it. By no means do I understand it yet, all I'm saying is I believe it takes regular dedicated practice of a single form to fully appreciate it and not just running through all your forms every week.

[PopeCoyote]

They do... at fifth Degree ^^

probably for the same reason they don't teach both directions of Ki Cho Hyung to a whitebelt... There is SO much precision required, you could literally focus on the precise (practical) application of one underbelt technique, on your familiar hand, for an entire day and still have a KJN point out flaws in your posture, footing, points, locks, follow-ups(big one for me :()...ect.



Actually, ever since I figured out the secret to doing the forms opposite side, when I help teach the white belt classes, I teach it in a way where I'm teaching both side simultaneously. My thought is that if I teach it this way now, when the time eventually comes that they have to reverse it, they can do so with minimal effort. Point in fact, I find that both sides are easy now.
(I haven't tried Gum Moo Hyung yet-but that's more from the fact that I'm still working on memorizing it-afterwords, maybe.)

[Silentmonk]

Ok throwing a question into the mix. What is everyones stand point on the purpose of studying forms, because i think this reflects the relevance of studying both sides. I don't see it as being able to teach me anything more than learning to do it properly on the "real" side. However,I can see the relevance of being able to do techniques on both sides. Discuss. :)

[Choiyoungwoo]

The most important application we've seen so far for opposite-side hyung has been for teaching, especially teaching small children. For teaching purposes, doing hyung and tech on both sides is very useful.

KJN Sung Jin once said that he studied Ki Cho Hyung for 6 months solid and still didn't understand it completely! And this was him saying it recently!

I am not trying to be insulting, but.. does this mean that he incapable of understanding it, or is it so complex that even a high ranking master can't get it after 25+ years....If so then how can anyone understand it? Or are the mysteries of hyung so great that you will never understand it? I don't believe that's the case. But if it is true then I would rather spend time on skills that I have some hope of eventually understanding. When you pour the foundation for your home you do it carefully and correctly the first time, some time passes...once it is "set" you build the rest of the home, over time the foundation requires ocassional inspection as maintainence, but no real changes(including flipping it over) unless it cracks. Unlike the rest of the home which requires constant maint and ocassional upgrades. I think hyung is very similar to this. Going back and re-pouring the foundation of the home over and over is not a good way to maintain a home. Of course the analogy is not perfect. But serve the purpose.

Opposite stance forms practice may not add dimension to your understanding, but who are you to say that it adds to no ones?

Not what I implied.. If you can't figure it out on one side why would you want to be equally ignorant on the other side. Why would you pour one bad foundation on top of another?

Opposite stance forms practice may add dimension to your understanding, but who are you to say that it adds to everyones?
..
But what is the purpose of KS hyung? Do practicing opp side help achieve that purpose? if so, How? I have seen little evidence that it contributes to the understanding of hyung. It does seem to challenge most people, so thats good, i guess. I have seen much evidence that it helps as a teacher, and for general exercise, fitness, coordination, etc... I have practiced all of the hyung left side many times, and it adds a "variety " to the training , which is nice.


You DO practice outside of class? There, you don't have to do activities you don't enjoy, or you can get a better handle on stuff that was hard.

I rarely practice outside of the dojang or outside of KSW/dojang related activites. Which I think is the same for the average student. If KSW skill acquisition requires that in abundance then the avg student has little hope of skill mastery. Except for the privileged few who have nothing else to do.

[kswgreenman]

Going back and re-pouring the foundation of the home over and over is not a good way to maintain a home. Of course the analogy is not perfect. But serve the purpose.


I don't agree that forms (or anything else we do) are necessarily architectonic as you describe - could there not be a case for the process being more like getting good at a musical instrument, for instance, where as the relationship develops so you are in a continuing state of realising new things about the purportedly very basics, no matter how practiced you are?

[ember]

As near as I can tell, the reason for studying forms is multi-layered. Certainly performing several of them in a row is a significant cardio workout. I'm also told that the low stances are intended to strengthen the legs.

But on another level, done with concentration, the form becomes a moving meditation, that helps bring you into the present moment. And, perhaps incidentally, helps to reprogram the body's reactions to various stresses.

I noticed with my TKD forms that each had a certain flavor to them which I could pick up on after practicing for a while. But I didn't work stances in the TKD forms, and I was learning a new form about every 6 weeks.

Kuk Sool forms are different. Memorization doesn't take me that long, but that "flavor" aspect seems to take longer to get. The pacing is a little different.

Learning opposite-side makes me think about the normal side a little more. Get a better feel for which direction I'm going, those sorts of things. I've already mentioned the usefulness of opposite-side in instructing.

I don't know if learning both sides is important to the more esoteric benefits of hyung, the breathing and ki aspects. I know that since our bodies are symmetrical, it helps to try and develop both sides about equally, and that is difficult to do without opposite-side forms.

And from what I've seen of the two-sword form, it seems like learning the sword forms opposite-side would be an important preparatory step.

It also looks really cool in demo, if you can get the synchronization of two people doing forms, one right-side and the other left-side.

Ok throwing a question into the mix. What is everyones stand point on the purpose of studying forms, because i think this reflects the relevance of studying both sides. I don't see it as being able to teach me anything more than learning to do it properly on the "real" side. However,I can see the relevance of being able to do techniques on both sides. Discuss. :)

[Choiyoungwoo]

I don't agree that forms (or anything else we do) are necessarily architectonic as you describe - could there not be a case for the process being more like getting good at a musical instrument, for instance, where as the relationship develops so you are in a continuing state of realising new things about the purportedly very basics, no matter how practiced you are?

I admit the analogy is flawed, and I do agree with your post, but as a Guitarist why would you need to start playing left handed ? Certainly it would deepen your appreciation of playing. and you may pick up a some additional insight here and there , but it seems an awfully arduous endeavor for so little gain. and how would that deepen your knowledge of the instrument/music/skill? Do you become better at playing right handed? Are you a better technician?. I don't see this idea applied in music or athletic training. Yo Yo Ma, Joe Montana, Tiger Woods, Wayne Gretsky, Eddie Van Halen, Andres Sergovia, Venus/Serena Williams, don't switch between left and right. Some Baseball players do, but certainly not all, and the transfer is relatively simple, and done for the sake of game strategy. Most Boxers Don't , those that do probably do it in a limited capacity. And with only a handful of skills. But functional training and Formal training are fundamentally different. For Functional training it is a must. For Formal training it is a time consuming luxury. Most of us don't have the luxury of "plenty of extra training time".. if you do .. you are truly fortunate..

[Silentmonk]

But on another level, done with concentration, the form becomes a moving meditation, that helps bring you into the present moment. And, perhaps incidentally, helps to reprogram the body's reactions to various stresses.

Learning opposite-side makes me think about the normal side a little more. Get a better feel for which direction I'm going, those sorts of things. I've already mentioned the usefulness of opposite-side in instructing.

I don't know if learning both sides is important to the more esoteric benefits of hyung, the breathing and ki aspects. I know that since our bodies are symmetrical, it helps to try and develop both sides about equally, and that is difficult to do without opposite-side forms.

And from what I've seen of the two-sword form, it seems like learning the sword forms opposite-side would be an important preparatory step.

It also looks really cool in demo, if you can get the synchronization of two people doing forms, one right-side and the other left-side.

Sorry have chopped and cheated a bit with this quote and this isn't a disagreement again just another discussion opener lol. :)

Moving meditation would not be affected by which side you are on, so maybe both sides aren't needed.
I only find that i can do a form on the opposite side when i totally forget about the movement of the normal side(by the way i didn't say i didn't do it opposite side was just looking for peoples comments).
Oh and the idea about teaching may well work i like it. However, i always found it more beneficial teaching kids their lefts from their rights, its really handy when they learn to drive (joke) seriously i'm gonna try that with the ones who just don't get it. You may have saved whats left of my hair :)
The symmetry of your body argument would depend on the amount of time spent in stances i guess. However if you take into account kicking from squats, and general stance work we do in class we have that covered without the need for left hand forms.
Learning sword form both sides i don't think will help with double sword form. Learning the cutting drill both sides does!!!! and there are more advanced ones of those too to help with that.
I would agree that it does look cool in a demo, however i think that forms should be taught dependant on your own stronger side afterall a left handed persons defence stance is actually naturally different to that of a right handed persons so why make them change. Then you would need to be able to teach the form on both sides so it would become neccessary. Again actually i agree with a lot of your points i'm just trying to fuel discussion this site has been a little quiet. And your discussions are always polite and considered. :)

[Unknown Entity]

I train forms for a variety of reasons. Fitness is the obvious one but I also practice them as they help me with my balance and co-ordination which you need when sparring or executing a technique.

Please don't interpret this as saying that I use forms to train for sparring. I don't.

As for KJn Sung Jin I think the point he was making was that you should never feel that its perfect and that it doesn't need any extra work. There is always some aspect that you can improve on!

[KSW_123]

I personally do not practice forms on both sides. I do lots and lots of squats, lunges, and now burpees (thanks to you guys), to keep my strength balanced. If I like a particular part of a form and think it would be a cool application, then I usually work it on both sides. I just don't have the time to practice on both sides. I have too much stuff to practice as it is. I have one exception. I practice Jung Gum and Yuhk Gum on both sides. I make the time for this because I want the workout on the opposite arm and I like the way the sword makes my arms feel.

Techniques I practice on both sides though. I have found that after I believed that the right side was really good, doing the left revealed some nugget of information.

If you have the time, practicing in as many different ways as you can think of is a good thing.

[Unknown Entity]

Variety is the spice of life!

[kswgreenman]

I admit the analogy is flawed, and I do agree with your post, but as a Guitarist why would you need to start playing left handed ? Certainly it would deepen your appreciation of playing. and you may pick up a some additional insight here and there , but it seems an awfully arduous endeavor for so little gain. and how would that deepen your knowledge of the instrument/music/skill? Do you become better at playing right handed? Are you a better technician?.


Well, for openers, the left-right thing is a fairly specific case, but lets run with it. Part of gaining a fuller relationship with a musical instrument is to experiment with all the different ways you can imagine getting sound out of it - like any part of practise its only arduous if you make it so.

Gain-wise, I wouldn't agree that there should be little; beyond the high probability that it will make you a better technician
in some respects, by dint of making your respective hands move in different ways, there's one's growth as an artist to consider in this context (and, arguably, with respect to refining one's ability to control one's body, also) - you'll discover things you find harder, get ideas for things to try, new ways of playing, and it will make you think about music as a thing in itself, as an act of listening and awareness, rather than a prescribed set of relations with your instrument.

John Stevens of The Sponteaneous Music Ensemble - an improvisation collective that started in the late 60s - had some incredibly fruitful improvisation exercises along these lines, like everyone having to proceed making only the quietest possible sounds that they could contrive to get from their instrument. Hugely rewarding and not the least bit arduous - give it a try :)


I don't see this idea applied in music or athletic training. Yo Yo Ma, Joe Montana, Tiger Woods, Wayne Gretsky, Eddie Van Halen, Andres Sergovia, Venus/Serena Williams, don't switch between left and right. Some Baseball players do, but certainly not all


Ronnie O'Sullivan, a obscenely talented Snooker player does (and in match play); he does so because he disocovered he could, and at no real detriment to his game, because he has that knack.

The point being partly about finding out whether you do have the knack, or not - finding one's own limiting factors (of which we all have some, obviously) - and deciding what to do about it. If I find a movement difficult on one side and not another it could be for different reasons - one leg may be weaker, my balance could be off because I tend to tilt, or there may some factor that is beyond my means to improve. If I'm able to build awareness of what my weaknesses are, and whether they're soluable or not, I'll be able to make rational choices about what to work on improving, and what I have to work around - part of deepening my awareness of the instrument in question (physical body or musical body).


But functional training and Formal training are fundamentally different. For Functional training it is a must. For Formal training it is a time consuming luxury. Most of us don't have the luxury of "plenty of extra training time".. if you do .. you are truly fortunate..

And I guess KSW, like any other MA today, has to divide itself between the functional and the formal, if nothing else to reflect the varied interets of its members (I certainaly have no intention whatsoever of road-testing my moves before I die old and happy, if I can possibly avoid it). That said, I'm still not convinced that there'd be no additional functional benefit from practicing moving in as wide a variety of ways as possible.

As for time, I have the 'luxury' of spending that sort of time on my musical practice because it's what I do, and I have no choice in the matter of hyung :)

[Choiyoungwoo]

I just don't have the time to practice on both sides. I have too much stuff to practice as it is. I have one exception. I practice Jung Gum and Yuhk Gum on both sides. I make the time for this because I want the workout on the opposite arm and I like the way the sword makes my arms feel.

Techniques I practice on both sides though. I have found that after I believed that the right side was really good, doing the left revealed some nugget of information.

If you have the time, practicing in as many different ways as you can think of is a good thing.
In the case of sword it is very useful as you will need it for double sword skills and I agree abouit balancing the strength of both arms/wrists.

I don't have time for both sides either. certainly not in abundance.

[ember]

Sorry have chopped and cheated a bit with this quote and this isn't a disagreement again just another discussion opener lol. :)

No prob :)


I would agree that it does look cool in a demo, however i think that forms should be taught dependant on your own stronger side afterall a left handed persons defence stance is actually naturally different to that of a right handed persons so why make them change. Then you would need to be able to teach the form on both sides so it would become neccessary.

One of the juniors asked PSBN that question Monday, saying he was left-handed. PSBN said that there needed to be a standard, and for most people starting right-side was easier.

Having been in class where the black belts are doing left-side while the brown belts are doing right-side, there's a lot more opportunity for collisions. You mention kids having trouble enough keeping right and left straight, imagine adding this confusion to the mix! :)

Being a lefty myself, knowing the left-side form is pretty important to me... on a personal level. No lefty ends up "pure", we always end up making some compromises to this right-hand world. So I can do the forms right-side, no problem... but I think... if I had the choice? I probably would focus on left-side.


Again actually i agree with a lot of your points i'm just trying to fuel discussion this site has been a little quiet.

Quiet, really? I feel like I've made more posts in the last week than I used to make in a month...


And your discussions are always polite and considered. :)

Why... Thank you! :) I do try...

[PopeCoyote]

Personally, I find that doing a form left-side helps my right-side form become better. Sometimes i miss a specific detail when originally taught a form, but when trying to puzzle out the left-side, I will encounter a movement that I don't quite get. This tells me that this a movement I need to look at when doing it right-side.

So not only does doing forms left-side help my right-side form, but it also helps with attitude. there seems to be an innate fear of new things in most (but not all) people. By doing it left-side it helps overcome that fear.

Next step-by being able to overcome the fear of doing hyuing, it removes the fear of doing other parts of training like standing nak bub ( Note I started practicing forms left-side around blue belt)

Basically, when all is said and done, I find that left-side forms improve my training in general. That's what caused me not to flinch when PSBN asked me to do KBS and SMS left-side on my DBN Test.

[You Won Hwa]

Opposite stance forms practice may add dimension to your understanding, but who are you to say that it adds to everyones?


I didn't say that it did. I didn't say that I enjoyed opposite stance forms. I said it was a teaching tool, that everyone learns differetntly, and different techniques help different students.

I apologise if anything in my tone was anything but respectfull.

[JKN-Taylor]

It's nice to see you made it to the boards "You Won Hwa" ^_^!

How many post and you're already in a flame war? lol jk XD

Welcome to MAP!

[You Won Hwa]

I admit the analogy is flawed, and I do agree with your post, but as a Guitarist why would you need to start playing left handed ?

In playing a guitar, the hands are doing different things, have different functions. Fretting and plucking or stumming are very different. But in forms, we are doing the same kinds of things with our bodies, just at different times.

If one were only doing forms to keep in shape, then to a great extent, one would only be practicing kicks and punches one sided. There all all those "one two three" punches, a few L-hand sudos, so there are a few left hand techniques, <trying to recall ALL the kicks in ALL the forms....> Aside from just plain stance training, one might become one-sided!

[You Won Hwa]

does anyone one know what the 108 torments of budhisum we are ment to be exercising in beak pal ki are?

I thought the torments were the movements themselves?

There are 108 beads in prayer beads, most everywhere, yes? maybe some sort of metaphor for "All the things we experience in life."

A list *would* be fun.

birth
hunger
thirst
desire
exhaustion
worry
...

[JKN-Taylor]

Funny thing for me is, I'm left handed. Training on my right side has made me somewhat ambidextrous, but I look forward to reverse Hyung, ect.

Being a martial artist is about optimizing your survivability (well at least originally). If you are right handed, you train with nothing other than your right hand, and someone disables that arm in a fight, you're really going to wish that your off hand was more useful.

In sparring/fighting, picking a favorite side is also one of the biggest disadvantages you could give yourself.

[Silentmonk]

Personally i think the argument of becoming one sided is flawed. Is forms all anyone does to learn how to kick or punch or move in kuk sool outside of our school (yeah that is a bit of sarcasm hehe) no of course its not. Therefore since we actually perform more kicks and punches outside of form training than in it i just don't see this. Also forms are about low stances aren't they, hands up if thats how you spar/fight???? therefore non transferable??? hehe another discussion brews :)

[kswgreenman]

does anyone one know what the 108 torments of budhisum we are ment to be exercising in beak pal ki are?

There doesn't seem to be a definitive list, as such. 108 crops up a lot in Indian religion apparently, pehraps because it's one of those interesting numbers (1x2x2x3x3x3).

One explanation I've seen [1] is that suffering is due to craving (the Second Noble Truth) of which there are three varieties - craving for pleasure, craving for being and craving for non-being.

These three are applied six sensory organs - eyes, nose, ears, tongue, body and mind - and across six "external objects" - form, sound, smell, taste, contact and concepts, giving you twelve distinct possibilities for three distinct cravings, so thirty six in all.

Finally, these cravings are applicable over three states of time - past, present, future, which gives you 3x36 = 108.

In any case, as I understand it, the 108 torments, or defilements, are the oppurtunities for elighenment one passes through to acheive, um, enlightenment.

That said, I've also seen some 108 item lists. I think there's a proud tradition in Buddhism of having a plurality of interpretations kicking around, so one certainly can't be too dogmatic about one explanation vs. another (but I quite like the neatness of this one :) )

[1] Ven. Pategama Gnanarama, "Essentials of Buddhism" - http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/essentialsof.pdf.

[ember]

Ye beat me to it! :) But then, you seem to have a fuller explanation, all I knew was that 108 is a sacred number, in both Hinduism and Buddhism IIRC.

There doesn't seem to be a definitive list, as such. 108 crops up a lot in Indian religion apparently, pehraps because it's one of those interesting numbers (1x2x2x3x3x3).

[QUOTE=kswgreenman]One explanation I've seen [1] is that suffering is due to craving (the Second Noble Truth) of which there are three varieties - craving for pleasure, craving for being and craving for non-being.

Craving is a new term for me, I usually hear "attachment". But you're right...

"In his meditation, the Buddha had a vision of the endless cycle of birth and death that is the lot of humankind. It was revealed to him that people were bound to this cycle because of tanha ('desire,' 'thirst,' 'craving'). It is desire that causes karma and thus fetters people. The Buddha had desired enlightenment and had sought it through asceticism and knowledge, but it had eluded him. When he had ceased to desire it, he found enlightenment."
-- Hopfe, Lewis M. and Mark R. Woodward. Religions of the World. Prenice-Hall, London, 1998.

That said, I've also seen some 108 item lists. I think there's a proud tradition in Buddhism of having a plurality of interpretations kicking around, so one certainly can't be too dogmatic about one explanation vs. another (but I quite like the neatness of this one :) )

That wouldn't surprise me. One of the other things about Hyung that I was going to bring up is that I think they are, on another level, puzzles. Koans, if you would, stemming from the Zen / Ch'an / Son Buddhist tradition.

It's this puzzle aspect, I think, that is why one can study the same form for six months or six years and still not quite consider it grasped. The mechanics of the body motion are relatively easy, it's the philosophies that take longer.


[1] Ven. Pategama Gnanarama, "Essentials of Buddhism" - http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/essentialsof.pdf.

[kswgreenman]

That wouldn't surprise me. One of the other things about Hyung that I was going to bring up is that I think they are, on another level, puzzles. Koans, if you would, stemming from the Zen / Ch'an / Son Buddhist tradition.

It's this puzzle aspect, I think, that is why one can study the same form for six months or six years and still not quite consider it grasped. The mechanics of the body motion are relatively easy, it's the philosophies that take longer.

Yes, one likely aspect being (again in common with getting good at any other precise physical activity, like a musical instrument) if I strive at getting a form right, or good, then it will elude me because my concentration isn't entirely focused on the present moment, or I'm trying to concentrate (a self-defeating task), and so forth.

I was flicking through The Book of Five Rings the other day and noticed a passage saying something about this, IIRC that one point of practise was to let the 'normal' mind get on with the job of directing your body without interference from the 'concious' mind.

Now, to do actually do this...<sigh>

[You Won Hwa]

Now, to do actually do this...<sigh>
Like affirmations, like emptying the mind during meditation, one tries, and never gets there.

Progress, not perfection. When we have no where to go, the journey is ended.

I'm afraid you have to not WANT it, though:

As a tree with strong uninjured roots, though cut down, grows up again, so, when deep craving is not rooted out, suffering arises again and again.

-Dhammapada

[ember]

Mmmffff... Kyo Sa Nim is *always* telling me to relax. Then again, when I started practicing, I was *always* tense. :)

Mind clear. We *can* get there, it just takes learning / practice and a willingness to let go.

Yes, one likely aspect being (again in common with getting good at any other precise physical activity, like a musical instrument) if I strive at getting a form right, or good, then it will elude me because my concentration isn't entirely focused on the present moment, or I'm trying to concentrate (a self-defeating task), and so forth.

I was flicking through The Book of Five Rings the other day and noticed a passage saying something about this, IIRC that one point of practise was to let the 'normal' mind get on with the job of directing your body without interference from the 'concious' mind.

Now, to do actually do this...<sigh>

[kswgreenman]

Mmmffff... Kyo Sa Nim is *always* telling me to relax. Then again, when I started practicing, I was *always* tense. :)

Mind clear. We *can* get there, it just takes learning / practice and a willingness to let go.

Ack - that <sigh> wasn't entirely mournful - it is, however, a constant suprise to me that I range from moderately fluid to moving like a drunk camel merely depending on my mood :rolleyes:

As you say, practice...

[ember]

I was reminding myself :)

Ack - that <sigh> wasn't entirely mournful - it is, however, a constant suprise to me that I range from moderately fluid to moving like a drunk camel merely depending on my mood :rolleyes:

As you say, practice...

[ember]

Yes, one likely aspect being (again in common with getting good at any other precise physical activity, like a musical instrument) if I strive at getting a form right, or good, then it will elude me because my concentration isn't entirely focused on the present moment, or I'm trying to concentrate (a self-defeating task), and so forth.

I was flicking through The Book of Five Rings the other day and noticed a passage saying something about this, IIRC that one point of practise was to let the 'normal' mind get on with the job of directing your body without interference from the 'concious' mind.


I wanted to pull on this a bit more. IIRC, Ch'an Buddhism arose in China from the Taoist influence. In some respects, Taoism is one of the ultimate laissez faire philosophies. (Pardon my French, that's one language I haven't studied.)

I'm reminded of a story of a man who commissioned a sketch of a tiger from a calligrapher. Years went by with no product, until finally the man confronted the calligrapher and demanded his sketch. The calligrapher immediately pulled out paper and brush, and instantly the tiger sketch was there. When the man complained about why it took so long, the calligrapher opened his desk to reveal thousands of "practice sketches".

I think one of the things we are supposed to work towards in our hyung is this sort of effortlessness. As you say, letting the body do the work without direction from the 'conscious' mind.

I also want to clarify something I wrote earlier:

It's this puzzle aspect, I think, that is why one can study the same form for six months or six years and still not quite consider it grasped. The mechanics of the body motion are relatively easy, it's the philosophies that take longer.

Here we've just spent some time discussing the philosophies, "talking the talk." Learning to live the philosophies, to apply them in our forms and our lives, to "walk the walk," is more like what I meant.

Another Zen principle that I've tried to apply to my Kuk Sool training is "beginner's mind." I would rather not be in a situation where my "cup overfloweth," and I assume that I know what the instructors are talking about.

So... I'd really like to thank you for the opportunity to discuss some of my studies in relationship to my training. I haven't done a lot of that yet, so this is really cool.

[kswgreenman]

I wanted to pull on this a bit more. IIRC, Ch'an Buddhism arose in China from the Taoist influence. In some respects, Taoism is one of the ultimate laissez faire philosophies. (Pardon my French, that's one language I haven't studied.)


I know about as little about the Tao as I know about Buddihsm - by way of an opening disclaimer :) - but AKFAIK the (purportedly) Zen ideas of non-intervention (your french was fine) do seem to be grounded in that tradition. Taoism is also interesting (to me) because it's bound up in dialectical ideas, which are still (mysteriously) absent from a lot of mainstream western thinking (despite having been in the western philosophical canon for some time).


Another Zen principle that I've tried to apply to my Kuk Sool training is "beginner's mind." I would rather not be in a situation where my "cup overfloweth," and I assume that I know what the instructors are talking about.


I've heard this as 'emptying your cup' - learning to try things with a completely open mind, whatever your misgivings / scepticism.


So... I'd really like to thank you for the opportunity to discuss some of my studies in relationship to my training. I haven't done a lot of that yet, so this is really cool.

Likewise - a lot of my work at the moment involves burrowing around some 20c Europoean and US philosophy, which serves to make me ever more curious about the theoretical contexts of KSW, particularly things like Hyung, so I, too, have really enjoyed finding someone else interested, and beginning to chew over the ideas - so, thanks also ...

[ember]

I took Continental (European) Philosophy in grad school about a year back, and I've got an undergraduate minor in Religious Studies. I'd have to pull out my books, but we did some reading on Hegel and Heidegger, and a bit of Sartre and Nietzsche.

I could definitely see the Eastern influence in several of these. I may have to dig through some of my old texts to follow you, but that can be fun.

Likewise - a lot of my work at the moment involves burrowing around some 20c Europoean and US philosophy, which serves to make me ever more curious about the theoretical contexts of KSW, particularly things like Hyung, so I, too, have really enjoyed finding someone else interested, and beginning to chew over the ideas - so, thanks also ...

[kswgreenman]

I took Continental (European) Philosophy in grad school about a year back, and I've got an undergraduate minor in Religious Studies. I'd have to pull out my books, but we did some reading on Hegel and Heidegger, and a bit of Sartre and Nietzsche.

I could definitely see the Eastern influence in several of these. I may have to dig through some of my old texts to follow you, but that can be fun.

I'd be following you, I think; I've never done a class in this stuff, rather just wandered around as I please for my research degree. Consequently I know almost nothing, yet, about Hegel (for instance) (other than something about dialectics) :D

I'm just about to start nosing around phenomenology, so I'll be grappling with some Satre and more relavent (for these purposes) Heidegger pretty soon.

Anyway, if you're up for it, I'd be delighted to periodically resurrect this conversation as my (and your) reading continues in various directions.

[ember]

I've heard this as 'emptying your cup' - learning to try things with a completely open mind, whatever your misgivings / scepticism.


I was referencing a story I'd read, about a professor who had done a lot of book reading about Zen and Buddhism, and who went to Asia for the chance to hear about some of it first-hand. They were at dinner, and the professor went on and on about what he had read. The monk he was visiting picked up the teapot and began filling the professor's cup. He continued pouring until the tea spilled onto the professor, at which point the professor asked "what are you doing?" The monk explained that the full cup couldn't hold any more tea, and that for the professor to learn more on the visit, he would have to set aside his book knowledge.

So as I've already said, I have a pretty good book-knowledge of philosophy, both Western and Eastern. It's cool to relate some of it to Kuk Sool. But I try to keep in mind the difference between reading and doing, theory and practice.

One thing we hadn't talked yet here was the Confucian influence. I know Choi referenced it in another thread some time back...

My studies indicate Confucius and Lao Tzu (of the Tao Te Ching) were very close to contemporaries, and the Taoist and Confucian philosophies have grown up in a sort of polarity with each other.

One of the reasons I've pointed up the Taoist influence was because what I've read of later Taoist works get a lot into breath control to extend one's life. Gee, we haven't heard that anywhere before now, have we? But I seem to recall that the "life" the Taoists were striving for was more like a trance state, having to be cared for by other people. Didn't sound much like living to me.

But while Taoism sort of emphasizes natural order and laissez faire, Confucianism IIRC revolves around a structured and hierarchical order of responsibilities. My "Religions of the World" text referenced earlier mentions a Confucian emphasis on proper rites and ceremonies, people knowing their place, and above all, ettiquette. (Another familiar concept for Kuk Soolin...)

That's a lot for tonight, and the cats want their dinner.

[ember]

Considering that Hwarang is the person who gave Coyote & I guidelines for when to start practicing each of our opposite-side hyung, I'm curious if he has more to add to the discussion on why they're useful.