Sex and Kuk Sool

[JSun]

I've got a friend who regularly practices Qi-Gong. He told me that a practitioner should abstain from any sexual activity 24-48 hours before training because of how sex affects Qi flow through the body. I was wondering what other KSW artists thought of this theory and how it applies to traditional Korean Ki beliefs taught in Kuk Sool. Has anyone had any experience, adverse or otherwise, of sex affecting their training regiment? I also thought it made a great thread title and would get a little attention :D

[Kwajman]

Yea yea, we've heard all this before. I don't think its ever been documented. I know a number of athletes have done the no-sex thing and then done sex right before a comp, Usually it makes no difference.

[Silentmonk]

Damn was hoping this was a contacts page. LOL ;o)

[shotokanwarrior]

If that man's head was any further up his own arse it would probably come morphing out of his mouth.

Also, it's none of his business if people 'do it' before training.

[baubin2]

Well I suppose if it got you pregnant, it would certainly affect your training regimen :D

[JSun]

Damn was hoping this was a contacts page. LOL ;o)

The thread would probably get a better response if it was :D

Yea, I know, this topic has been worn out, I just haven't seen a discussion from a Korean philosophical stand point. I try to get "it" as much as possible, regardless of if I'm training or not ;)

If that man's head was any further up his own arse it would probably come morphing out of his mouth.

Also, it's none of his business if people 'do it' before training.

He really wasn't delving into my or anyone else's personal life, we were just having a discussion on Qi and he brought that particular train of thought in Qi-Gong to my attention. I don't know about everyone else, but when I'm done rubbing nasties, I generally want to sleep. It makes it pretty obvious to me that it must have some impact on a person's energy. How long that impact lasts is another subject altogether.

[Yohan]

Often boxers are told not to do the nasty the night before a fight as it makes them sluggish on their feet. I have found the same to be true for me if I do it like a rabid rabbit the day before or the day of. I generally feel pretty drained and sluggish.

Oh I do kung fu, which has some focus on qi and qigong, but I don't practice qigong regularly.

However, I haven't found that having a normal and healthy sex life affects my training one way or the other.

Although without it I tend to be a bit more frustrated (surprise surprise)

[Chuin]

ALL
I guess you need to read some Chi Gong books and you will see there is a connection. If any of the acupuncture students are online they can explain it better than me. I know everyone likes to dismiss the connection since its very integral part of many people’s lives.

Let's just say whether its true or not is not really the point.

People just don't want it to be true.

[Yohan]

I will agree that it affects your qi, and also affects your qigong-type exercises, but I haven't found that a healthy sex life affects my performance in sparring or drills.

[onyomi]

From a TCM perspective, sexual energy is a type of energy given to you by your parents known as "jing." Since it is given to you at birth, it would follow logically that it is finite and that the more you have sex the shorter your lifespan. I personally don't believe in this. I think sexual energy is not so different from the rest of the qi/bodily energy, it just comes from a different area.

The goal of certain types of qigong is to take the jing or original essence/sexual energy, and convert it into qi, which can be used for enhancing health and martial arts (this is then supposed to be converted into shen/spirit, which is converted into nothingness. The nothingness is then "crushed" and enlightenment is achieved). I have little understanding and experience of the process past the jing to qi point, so I'll only comment on my experiences with that.

The idea is not so much to avoid sexual activity, but rather to harness sexual energy, which is awakened by sexual activity, be it with a partner or by yourself. The Daoists would generally use one of the above two, while the celibate Buddhists were allowed to stimulate themselves mentally, but not physically :rolleyes: . Anyway, when the sexual energy is "awakened," i.e. you feel stimulated, you then use breathing techniques to try to guide that energy upward and into the zhen-dantian, between the xia-dantian and mingmen. It can then enter the dantian and circulate or, theoretically, go up the chong-mai (thrusting vessel) to the brain where it can become shen and help you achieve enlightenment.

Basically, I just try to guide it to the dantian and let it circulate. If you then practice your qigong as usual you will find not only that the sexual energy mostly dissipates, but also that the qigong feels much more powerful. If you had stimulated yourself to "completion" however, this energy would have dissipated. Of course, this practice still leaves you feeling somewhat dissatisfied, so I only do it sometimes. There are also supposed to be Daoist techniques for absorbing energy from your partner, but I personally don't feel like bringing qigong into my personal life to THAT degree.

So, in summary, sexual energy definitely can be harnessed for use in the martial and health realm, but the degree you feel like doing so is up to you. You can still have very successful qigong practice without doing any of this and just having normal sex, though doing it right before class or a match might leave you feeling a bit "drained"... ;)

[ImperialDragon]

I've got a friend who regularly practices Qi-Gong. He told me that a practitioner should abstain from any sexual activity 24-48 hours before training because of how sex affects Qi flow through the body. I was wondering what other KSW artists thought of this theory and how it applies to traditional Korean Ki beliefs taught in Kuk Sool. Has anyone had any experience, adverse or otherwise, of sex affecting their training regiment? I also thought it made a great thread title and would get a little attention :D

That's true, but don't get hung up on it. Sex is fun.

[JSun]

That's true, but don't get hung up on it. Sex is fun.
Right on, man. Right on.

[AirNick]

Well, my mate got laid the night before this years European tournament and won 3rd dan grand champion. 2 things for me to be envious of him about!

[ember]

Yep. No jumping, no falling, no sparring, and no being partner for techniques. (Nobody gets to mess with the pressure points.) That's what KJN says. (YKJN says to ask him.)

Well I suppose if it got you pregnant, it would certainly affect your training regimen :D

[KSW_Martley]

Well, my mate got laid the night before this years European tournament and won 3rd dan grand champion. 2 things for me to be envious of him about!

lol, yeah I bet all of our club was hoping to get laid aswell the night before the tourny in that big Chinese restaurant place in Norwich town centre and other places there which we went to that night... lol, KJN Philip Holmes was there aswell :D

[Thomas]

I believe that the Sin Moo Kwan (Hapkido) contains a similar philosphical element. Might be a place to look....

[Meat Grinder]

There are also supposed to be Daoist techniques for absorbing energy from your partner, but I personally don't feel like bringing qigong into my personal life to THAT degree.

Hey lads there is finally a GOOD reason for why we fall asleep straight after sex with a bird "hey love you drained my energy at that last bit. Personally I think its your fault...Goon Night" :D

[lachupacabra]

Hmmm let's just lie and say it improves performance, then we can make it a testing requirement. 1000 push up...check, 5 min horse stance...check. Now, go home and get it on w/ur husband/wife...check...check...check

[unknown-KJN]

Getting the discussion "out of the gutter" and back on track, I think onyomi gave quite a detailed and accurate account. His stance on Taoist vs. Buddhist methods is correct AFAIK and everything I've learned in regards to the KSW version of Ki Gong seems to follow the Taoist view.

Abstention from sex (actually climax - and then only for males) is only advocated until becoming successful with a technique that allows you to achieve a female-type orgasm (where you get all the "tingles" but retain your JING essence -- in fact, this makes the orgasm more intense and longer lasting). As for the nasty act detracting from one's physical performance in any subsequent contest where peak strength and endurance is needed, the ability to control your "sexual outburst" actually improves your performance since your Ki has been energized, not depleted.

But most KSW practitioners are not taught this aspect of KI training (shh-- it's part of the "secret" stuff ;) )

[AZeitung]

Abstention from sex (actually climax - and then only for males) is only advocated until becoming successful with a technique that allows you to achieve a female-type orgasm (where you get all the "tingles" but retain your JING essence -- in fact, this makes the orgasm more intense and longer lasting). As for the nasty act detracting from one's physical performance in any subsequent contest where peak strength and endurance is needed, the ability to control your "sexual outburst" actually improves your performance since your Ki has been energized, not depleted.

Evidence?

[unknown-KJN]

Evidence?Personal experience. But I doubt that's "good enough" for you, so I suggest you look into any books about taoist/yogic sexual practices as many allude to this if not actually discuss it openly.

You also might consider as partial proof, an anecdote of mine in this post on another thread:
Knocked Out (http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1477228#post1477228)

[Moi]

What happens if you practice everyday?

[Bruce W Sims]

Seems like a lot of these sorts of subjects are just fated to come up time and again. Since there is plenty of published material on the matter under discussion the person who started this thread could have easily found an answer without starting a new thread. Further, we had just had a thread on the same subject in another part of the forum. So, my guess is that rather than wanting an actual answer on the subject, this is only a rather transparent use of a highly-charged subject (sex) to draw attention. Similarly charged subjects are the matter of women who train during their period, men who become aroused rubbing against other men on the mat, the role of traditional MA in real-life confrontations and the matter of Christian belief systems in a Buddhist or Taoist practice.

My own thought is that all of these topics and many others have been done to death and are only of interest when serving the more purient interests of the younger folks among us. Can we move on?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[AZeitung]

So, my guess is that rather than wanting an actual answer on the subject, this is only a rather transparent use of a highly-charged subject (sex) to draw attention.

You do realize that this thread was started 3 years ago, right? Check the date on the first post. I remember when it was first posted here. I was still in Kuk Sool Won at the time, I think. I don't even know if JSun is active on this forum anymore.

[JSun]

As a matter of fact, Bruce, I wanted a sincere answer to the original post. I was still a fresh white belt when I posted the original question and wanted an honest perspective from more advanced practitioners:
I was wondering what other KSW artists thought of this theory and how it applies to traditional Korean Ki beliefs taught in Kuk Sool.

Can we move on?
Please do, Bruce. Your post didn't contribute anything to the topic at hand.

AZeitung, glad to see you're back. We can always use a bit of skepticism on this forum to keep the sheep in check.

[Bruce W Sims]

As a matter of fact, Bruce, I wanted a sincere answer to the original post. I was still a fresh white belt when I posted the original question and wanted an honest perspective from more advanced practitioners:



Please do, Bruce. Your post didn't contribute anything to the topic at hand.

AZeitung, glad to see you're back. We can always use a bit of skepticism on this forum to keep the sheep in check.


Excuse me, Jsun, but I don't think you know when you have been given intelligent information to begin with.

Do you have a library card? If you are on the INTERNET have you accessed the Library of Congress? What reading have you done as far as Traditional Chinese Medicine or even Sports Medicine? If you were actually interested in the subject, you would have done research and brought the results back here to be discussed. According to your post you are 33 y/o. Why not deal with this subject as an adult instead as a teenager? Have you sat down face-to-face with a KSW master and asked him about the role of orgasm versus retention in terms of Ki development? Have you discussed masturbation? What about diet?

No, I DON'T think you are serious about the subject as there are a great many resources you could have used and brought the INFORMATION back here. Mantek Chia has written extensively on the subject of sex and Ki development. Have you read any of his books? How about attending any of his seminars?

If it sounds like I am more than a little annoyed, your "internal voice" is right on the money. I, for one, get just a little tired of visiting forums where the subject matter is constantly underfire from youthful stupidity, hormones and lack of information. How about you do this old man a favor and start acting your age.

Regards.

[fightinchance]

I think this thread was bumped back up by a new member to the forum who wanted to give a light-hearted answer and found humor in it. Come on Mate's let's not let some light humor escape our forum.

Besides if a topic IS brought up several times, could just mean people REALLY are interested in it. :)

[AZeitung]

If it sounds like I am more than a little annoyed, your "internal voice" is right on the money. I, for one, get just a little tired of visiting forums where the subject matter is constantly underfire from youthful stupidity, hormones and lack of information.

Youthful hormones? Dude, he's 33. JSun has never come across as anything but intellegent and sincere on this forum. You're relatively new here, so you might want to take some time getting to know people's posting habits before you try to call established members out as trolls.

And thanks, JSun, it's good to be back. I took a year off from MA all together, which ended about a year ago when I resumed BJJ. I was doing a lot of dancing (tango/swing) at the time, and MA just didn't hold much appeal. I've been busy in grad school, so I haven't been posting much, but I have a bit of down time, and it's always interesting to look around and see what people are talking about.

[Bruce W Sims]

I think this thread was bumped back up by a new member to the forum who wanted to give a light-hearted answer and found humor in it. Come on Mate's let's not let some light humor escape our forum.

Besides if a topic IS brought up several times, could just mean people REALLY are interested in it. :)

Point well taken. Thanks for the Reality Check. Much appreciated.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[KSW_123]

Getting the discussion "out of the gutter" and back on track, I think onyomi gave quite a detailed and accurate account. His stance on Taoist vs. Buddhist methods is correct AFAIK and everything I've learned in regards to the KSW version of Ki Gong seems to follow the Taoist view.

Abstention from sex (actually climax - and then only for males) is only advocated until becoming successful with a technique that allows you to achieve a female-type orgasm (where you get all the "tingles" but retain your JING essence -- in fact, this makes the orgasm more intense and longer lasting). As for the nasty act detracting from one's physical performance in any subsequent contest where peak strength and endurance is needed, the ability to control your "sexual outburst" actually improves your performance since your Ki has been energized, not depleted.

But most KSW practitioners are not taught this aspect of KI training (shh-- it's part of the "secret" stuff ;) )

I don't much about all this stuff, but I found this link quite interesting. Look near the bottom, in benifits for men. http://www.answers.com/topic/kegel-exercise

Isn't part of Ki Cho Cha Ki just doing one of these exercises?

[Bruce W Sims]

In Microcosmic Breathing, there is a point where the incoming breath has completed its course in through the nose, over the top of the head and down the length of the spine. From the base of the spine to the pubic bone, the "perineum" is a transitional area at which point a "kegel-like" contraction is performed said to induce the flow of KI up the front of the body with the exhale and out through the mouth. Though not stressed much in the sort of breathing that one finds in many MA, it is not uncommon to find this practice incorprated into contemplative practices including meditation, Yoga, CHI KUNG and PAL DAN KUM. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

[unknown-KJN]

the "perineum" is a transitional area at which point a "kegel-like" contraction is performedI have to admit, I've never heard of Arnold Kegel or Joshua Davies until now. But I think it's rather ridiculous that just because some guy designed a make-shift device using a balloon and a tire-gauge that he gets some exercise named after him when it's been done for centuries in the orient by those adept in Ki Gong. :dunno:

And come on Bruce, from everything I've just read about kegels, it appears to be EXACTLY like what's admonished in Ki Gong (at least what I've been taught anyway). I learned in the traditional manner (meaning from an instructor) but since you mentioned Mantak Chia a few posts back, I have to agree with you that what he explains in his first two books [1 (http://www.amazon.com/Awaken-Healing-Energy-Through-Tao/dp/0943358078),2 (http://www.amazon.com/Taoist-Secrets-Love-Cultivating-Sexual/dp/0943358191/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b)], is strikingly similar to the practices that I was taught (most books by M. Chia are worthy of note and should appear at the bottom of the links provided).



Isn't part of Ki Cho Cha Ki just doing one of these exercises?AFAIK, both the upper and lower diaphragm need to be flexed in order to "pack" the Ki into the Dahn Juhn. Ki-Cho-Jja-Ki - 기초짜기 (hereafter, KCJK) by definition is a "basic" exercise, and while it's not wrong when performing these exercises to do muscular contractions associated with more advanced Ki training methods, it's rarely taught that way. While I'm presently unable to consult a WKSA Textbook, I believe it simply says to "hold your breath" when doing the KCJK movements. But I will concede that it's the *first step* toward moving down the path that few choose to follow.

Look near the bottom, in benifits for men.If you look closely, you'll see that the bottom portion of that Answers.com article is actually taken from Wikipedia (always my first choice to look, but hey, that's me). I do have to admit that the Answers.com article mentioned Dr. Davies and Wikipedia didn't.

And if you thought the article you linked to was great, you should follow the one at the very bottom (which is the same regardless of which web host you link from - again it also is a Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoist_sexual_practices) article contained inside an Answers.com (http://www.answers.com/topic/taoist-sexual-practices) web page) Taoist sexual practices (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoist_sexual_practices)

[KSW_123]

Bruce, I coming at it from a different angle. Hopefully this post will help.

unknown-KJN, What I can't understand is why this is considered advanced Ki training. I will give a couple of examples and then attempt to tie it back into KCJK

I have lifted things on many occasions that I had no business moving on my own. I typically go through a ritual, not planned at all, of breathing deeply, psyching myself up, etc... I don't even know if my ritual is the same everytime. The one thing though is that I always tense those muscles like crazy in these situations. If I don't then I feel like I am going to blow an exhaust valve. So in extreme power motions for me at least it is natural to squeeze there as a protective mechanism.

The second example is archery. According to my instructor, it is common in Korea for a doctor to suggest that women with problem births, i.e. pelvic floor has been weakened, take up archery. Every time you shoot, you tense these muscles. If you do not then your consistency and accuracy will suffer. I have experimented with this myself. Although I am not great, I am good enough that leaving out that portion of the motion negatively affects my shooting. So this kegel exercise helps support the lower back against the jerk of the arrow release.

If we look at KCJK as a way to understand basic movement with a neutral spine, important in MA because power transfer across a non-neutral spine is very lossy, then I see at least that you have to squeeze those muscles as well. Funny enough, #4 feels like archery example and #5 feels like the big weight example.

Back on topic for the thread, I really have a hard time reading about some of the older practices. As a student in Math I studied alot about necessary and sufficient conditions. I find it tedious to wade through all the unnecessary stuff to find all good stuff.

[Dan Bian]

Sure, have sex. Just don't ejaculate every time.
I have practiced seamen-retention techniques before, with interesting results. Generally, the day after practicing, I am a lot more alert and active early on than I am if I "complete".

But, really, it's up to you. Sex is good, don't give up on it.

[unknown-KJN]

What I can't understand is why this is considered advanced Ki training.Well, either you're a "natural" or possibly unconsciously influenced by your instructor, but most practitioners of KSW rarely do more than the basic description in the KSW Textbook when performing KCJK. This is why I referred to the tightening of these muscles when breathing as advanced. Actually, it IS a fairly basic concept when it comes down to Ki Gong training. :D

I find it tedious to wade through all the unnecessary stuff to find all good stuff.I'm sorry if you find me too verbose, as I really try to be concise and not over-analyze when discussing these things. I'll work harder at it, though, as I'm sure there's always room for improvement. :cool:

[KSW_123]

I'm sorry if you find me too verbose, as I really try to be concise and not over-analyze when discussing these things. I'll work harder at it, though, as I'm sure there's always room for improvement. :cool:

I wasn't refering to you. More like the taoist wikipedia page, and most of the books on Ki and related subjects that I have looked through.

[Out-to-Lunch]

I'm sorry if you find me too verbose, :

I read this forum every day, and post on occasion...I can say with ease that you are my favorite contributor to the Kuk Sool forum, with Choi Young Woo as a close 2nd... Keep It Up!!!

take care,
--josh

[DoJe]

Is that 48 hours or days?

[KIWEST]

Well...before a tournament, it might just give you a more relaxed state of mind, which could help with nerves. But before a grading might not be so wize...suppose it depends how energetic you are!!! LOL

[KIWEST]

Thing is..if you are supposed to abstain for 48 hours BEFORE training, and you train 3 or 4 times a week.....doesn't leave much scope does it!

[KIWEST]

[QUOTE=Taiji Student;1479055]Sure, have sex. Just don't ejaculate every time.
I have practiced seamen-retention techniques before, with interesting results. QUOTE]

Seamen retention techniques. hmmm. Are they in the 4th dahn syllabus? And do you need a partner?

Sorry. I know this was a serious question but I am in a funny mood today!! Think I will look at another thread! Ho Hum...

[unknown-KJN]

Sure, you can post every couple of minutes if something else comes to mind (I'm talking about you, KIWEST), or maybe you could experiment with the EDIT button?

I'm not saying that the way you did it looks bad or anything, just offering another way that would also work, that's all.

Cheers!

[inthespirit]

Did not look through this whole thread, so someone may have mentioned something similar already.

Instead of looking for written proof as to whether sex has an effect on your practice or not, would it not be much easier and realistic to test the idea out yourselves.

Try this: have sex everyday for 5 days before training and after training take notes about your performance, specifically addressing stamina, accuracy, speed, etc.. Then abstain from sex and do another 5 days training and take notes. Check the results of your experiment and you have a personal and experiential answer to your question. Much more useful than hearsay, some other guys experience, med study, etc, etc..

[KSstudent]

the 1st half of the study sound great!

[dbt4581]

I think I'll just take my chances.... :evil:

[KIWEST]

Sure, you can post every couple of minutes if something else comes to mind (I'm talking about you, KIWEST), or maybe you could experiment with the EDIT button?

I'm not saying that the way you did it looks bad or anything, just offering another way that would also work, that's all.

Cheers!

Point taken unknown! Can I use the excuse that I am new here?

[MasterDunchok]

lol I come back a year later and NOW everyone's talking about qigong like it's normal, whereas last year it was all "explained away" by science and posture, etc.

Having sex doesn't affect your physical athletic performance too much, but it does affect your qi and thus, your willpower.

[unknown-KJN]

Having sex doesn't affect your physical athletic performance too much, but it does affect your qi and thus, your willpower.Well, MasterDunchok, I only have two words for you:

DUAL CULTIVATION

??? :dunno: ???

[MasterDunchok]

I should correct. It's not the having sex, it's the ejaculating. You're right. ;-) Actually, having sex and circulating backward can give you MORE qi.

[scotlfs]

From the male perspective, let me share my experience as it relates to Sex and XYZ.

Sex, specifically satisfaction from sex, makes you tired. It released endorphines in your body, which make it MUCH MUCH easier to fall asleep. Further if you are already tired, it makes it difficult to stay awake if you aren't physically active. There is a real reason why men have a bad reputation for passing out after sex, it's because they usually do from a general point of view.

How does this affect practice 24 hours or 48 hours later? Probably not very much is my guess. Honestly though, if I were in a tournement I probably wouldn't want to have sex on my way out the door to go. Having that extra chemical in your brain trying to drag you down, probably isn't something I would want when I need total awareness. I mean, you guys generally don't advocate drinking alcohol or smoke marijuana (hopefully not at all) before hand do you? Why would you think sexually induced sleepiness is any different from a performance point of view than these other chemicals?

Anyway, that's my opinion. I hope its a productive interjection.

Scot

[MadMonk108]

I've got a friend who regularly practices Qi-Gong. He told me that a practitioner should abstain from any sexual activity 24-48 hours before training because of how sex affects Qi flow through the body. I was wondering what other KSW artists thought of this theory and how it applies to traditional Korean Ki beliefs taught in Kuk Sool. Has anyone had any experience, adverse or otherwise, of sex affecting their training regiment? I also thought it made a great thread title and would get a little attention :D

It's not an issue for us, as we don't ascribe to the majority of "ki theory", especially when there is little scientific evidence for claims.

That being said...I live in a Buddhist temple...

It's not like I can go to the pub with pick up lines like "Hey baby, wanna come back to my place & rub my Buddha?"

[MadMonk108]

lol I come back a year later and NOW everyone's talking about qigong like it's normal, whereas last year it was all "explained away" by science and posture, etc.

That's because I was gone.

[Out-to-Lunch]

That being said...I live in a Buddhist temple...

It's not like I can go to the pub with pick up lines like "Hey baby, wanna come back to my place & rub my Buddha?"

That's great...I laughed a good 5 minutes over that lol That being said I have no life :-P

That's because I was gone.

So does that mean your back?

[MadMonk108]

For now;P

[djrakun]

Well, my mate got laid the night before this years European tournament and won 3rd dan grand champion. 2 things for me to be envious of him about!

trade-off between losing qi and gaining confidence I'll bet. Nothing like a romp to relax your nerves.

[scotlfs]

The night before I would suspect is fine. I am just saying that when I have sex or have an orgasm by any means, I just want to go to sleep afterwards. That's it...nothing scientific or spiritual in that statement. Just keeping that in mind, I don't think I'd want to have sex right before I needed to perform in the ring.