A random question.... to liven the board

[Zamfoo]

There have to be atleast a few black belts on here. my question is how much training did it take to get there?

[darlph]

There is no one answer. It depends on style, person, health, dedication, master, lifestyle, ecetera.

[KickChick]

... considering you posted this in "ninjutsu" section ... am I to assume you are referrring solely to "ninjitsu ... (?) ... if that is not the case then I can move this over to "general" and have all styles have a 'go' at it :D

[Zamfoo]

that wasn't my question tho. i didn't want "it takes 3 years to reach that level." I was just looking for how long it took that person. cuz i have no clue

[Zamfoo]

yeah just ninjutsu

[moromoro]

i have known of a few people who have gotten 10th dans after only a few years training...(bujinkan)

[Sonshu]

or very experienced in other arts!!!!

It took my instructor 11 years to get his 1st dan. It took me 6.

[xplasma]

Originally posted by moromoro
i have known of a few people who have gotten 10th dans after only a few years training...(bujinkan)

Ummm.... then I lost respect I had for Bujinkan. No wonder Tanemura left. I am glad to be in Genbukan where the ranks still mean something. My rank is Go(5th) Kyu and I have been training in Genbukan for 2 years. I can't wait till another 5 years of training for my Shodan rank. However, when I reach Shodan in 5 years, I will have earned it.

[Zamfoo]

how much do you guys train?

[Sonshu]

I train at the moment 2-3 nights a week and a 4-5 hour session on Saturday + Seminars etc.

Swim monday - tursday morning
Gym cardio / weights Monday - Thursday

[xplasma]

Originally posted by Zamfoo
how much do you guys train?

Its depends
Our classes are 1 hour - 2.5 hours depending was dojo I am in. Last Friday my class was 2.5 hours but normally they are 1 or 1.5 hours.

Most people train mininium 2 times a week, and to the max at 10 times (going to both day and night classes).

I normally do 7 times a week (3 Shinobi-jutsu,Taijutsu and Weapons training, 3 Straight Taijutsu specialization in jujutsu (my BJJ training),1 Bo-jutsu).

[Raizan]

Interesting, I've been training for almost 5 years. I'll be able to take my 1st degree test in December.

[SilentNightfall]

Interesting that the issue of rank now arises on this board as well. Seems that is the popular topic as of late for a great number of people. Okay, the fact of the matter is this... Yes, there are indeed a number of unskilled individuals still claiming to be affiliated with the Bujinkan that have received rankings of 10th Dan. Now you can boo and hiss about that all you want, but the fact of the matter is that Hatsumi-sensei is a very gracious and giving individual. He wants to see no one go away without getting what they want. Many people go to him for training and they walk away more than happy. Some wish to receive a high rank and care more about that and how they can make money through it than the training they receive. So...they get what they desire. A man once demanded a promotion from Hatsumi-sensei and was pacified by receiving it. But of course people want to then complain about quality control. In my opinion, it is not Soke Hatsumi's job to regulate the quality of individuals in this art. He was kind enough to open his doors to Americans several years ago and now people want to go around pointing fingers. The fact is, Americans can do the regulating by themselves. Use your intuition or do some research to sort out the bad instructors. It's simple and easy to tell the ones that are in it for the money. Usually charge high rates and advertise at every chance they get. If individuals stop paying them money, they go out of "business" so to speak. That or they only attract those just like themselves. Either way, I've ranted long enough. Just wanted to assure you all that at a vast majority of Bujinkan dojos, it still takes 3-5 years on average to reach shodan.

Oh, and for the record, Tanemura did not leave the Bujinkan because of the issue of rank. He was more along the lines of thrown out after an argument with Hatsumi-sensei that occurred because of a comment Tanemura made at a funeral, I believe. I'd have to look up the story to be certain, however.

[Sonshu]

I do in my style and I think most do as it ends up as a monty hall style.

This was not the issue I had while training but there are people who have never trained with Hatsumi and earnt evey que and dan grade they have got.

There should be controls in place to stop crap students getting grades.

[Brad Ellin]

Another point about rank in the Bujinkan... there are times that Hatsumi will promote a person before they are ready in the hopes that the person will strive to be worthy of that rank. Hatsumi believes that someone who is truly dedicated, if promoted, will take that as incentive to improve themselves and then actually be deserving of it. That's how he felt when Takamatsu passed on the scrolls to him. He says it took almost 20 years before he felt he was worthy of the title "Soke".

[Sonshu]

But from a 10th dan you expect somthing special and I think the whole MA community would from any style. I know I would as its a long way off from where I am.

Giving it as encoragement for say a 6th que to move upto 4th is good encoragement but from a 1st dan to say 5th is a different thing all toghter.

[xplasma]

That explains a lot.

Every time I walk into a Bujinkan Dojo I would be about 2-3 white belts, 1-2 green belts, then about 10 or more black belts.
I always wonder why.
Considering in most genbukan Dojos, if more then 1 Black Belt is on the floor it is a semi-rare event and if more then 2 its a special occasion.

So from what I understand getting the rank of Shodan or higher it not something you earn but rather something you demand then strive for.

I see Genbukan is different, we prove ourselves then receive the rank if we are successful.

Bujinkan gives rank in hopes the person will strive for it.

I really don't like that. I am glad America's armed forces don't act that way or we would have thousands of generals.

[Sonshu]

Only messing.

I agree it becomes a farce giving em out all the time.

[Brad Ellin]

"So from what I understand getting the rank of Shodan or higher it not something you earn but rather something you demand then strive for.

I see Genbukan is different, we prove ourselves then receive the rank if we are successful.

Bujinkan gives rank in hopes the person will strive for it."

Not quite, I said "There are times" meaning, sometime it happens. Not all the time. Heck, if that were the case, I'd have made Shodan a long time ago. That hasn't happened.

[Sonshu]

Who are not of sufficient level to have the grade they have got?

[SilentNightfall]

Brad is definitely right when he speaks of Hatsumi-sensei giving out rank in hopes that a person will strive to deserve it. This is a popular concept in most martial arts in Japan for those of you who do not know. Hatsumi-sensei did not create such a concept. Also, American instructors usually stick to the concept of having their students prove themselves before elevating their rank. This is how it is done in my dojo and many others. For the record, there is, besides Papa-san, one other member of the dojo that is usually always there followed by regular visits from other ranked black belts, all of whom have exceptional skill. Why should this be a problem? Also for the record, I have never had the unfortunate experience to train with someone undeserving of their rank. The quality is actually really good in these parts I'm proud to say.

Now then, as far as Hatsumi-sensei caring about quality control, my question to you is, "Why?" Why should he care about the quality of instructors outside of Japan? He can't be here to regulate it himself. That should be and is our job. When the 1000th person passed their Godan, I believe, Hatsumi-sensei was quoted as saying, "500 good, 500 bad." But those 500 bad will fade away eventually when they no longer receive the training required to improve. I know of quite a few people who no longer frequently visit Sensei and have an elevated rank. There is also plenty of bad news and comments about him on the net. Thus, if people do their homework, they can certainly sort out the bad instructors. You just can't be lazy and pick any random dojo and stick with it.

[Solane]

I got my 1st Dan after about 8 years I could have got it sooner but was never to bothered about my gradings, My instructor said I was good enough for my 2nd Dan but would need to attend more gradings. I am still at the moment officially graded to 1st Dan will work on my 2nd.
I have also heard of student being given gradings but it is an uncommon even. Most people I Know, have to prove they are capable before they get the grade.

[Sonshu]

And have trained with crap Taijitsu people much higher than I was. To much higher for it to be a "I hope he will aspire to it".

He should care as it should be down to regional heads of countries in Taijitsu to ensure the instructors under him are grading right.

It is after all a reflection on his art and therefore I would care alot!

People walking around saying I have a 4th dan in Ninjitsu but stopped training 4 years ago when in actual respect they are about 4th que is a big problem and hence why the effectivness of the art amongst general Martial Artists is often questioned.

[SilentNightfall]

You make the Bujinkan sound more like a business than a martial art. You're also looking at things with a very western perspective. I know of no other art, however, that has the kind of quality control you all want to place on the Bujinkan. TKD springs to mind... I say just forget the Dan and the Kyu grades and just find a qualified instructor. If it doesn't affect you then why bother? I, for one, could care less what people say about our ranking system and the effectiveness of our art. I know I have a phenomenal teacher and am learning something that truly works. I am also not about to try and rationalize Sensei's reasons for what he does. I don't believe anyone really can. So what it really boils down to is, why do you care if other martial artists question the effectiveness of our art?

[Sonshu]

Bujinkan is more of a business as there is a huge level on un needed politics in it that get in the way of the training we all want to do.

It should be monitored as I care about what people think in my art and its a pride thing. We all know there are school in TKD that are after the money but it affects the good schools. I consider myself from a good Taijitsu background and I dont approve of the crap that is out there.

It affects people views on the art I did. Because of the politics and in fighting / naff level of high grade students this is why I left the art.

[SilentNightfall]

See, I have pride in my art because, first and foremost, I know it is a highly intricate and effective art. Secondly, I take pride in being part of a family that includes so many wonderful members. You need to come to the realization that there are the same kind of politics in every other art out there. The Bujinkan is just pointed out mainly because it is something that all sport arts claim to be and that is a true combat art. Thus, any negative aspect about it, no matter how irrelevant, will be pointed out by people just to try and undermine the organization. If you can't take pride in an art because people out there say bad things about it, then I would consider leaving all martial arts behind. Every art has gotten slammed at one point or another for various things. Ninjutsu is no different.

[Sonshu]

to give a few that I have not heard slammed.

I left Taijitsu as I started to find it boring and also large parts of it fairly in effective and also the last of sparing was a critical flaw at the three schools I have trained at.

I created my own style that has a Taijitsu base and that way removed the politics and addressed the missing parts IMO.

[moromoro]

i think it is good that you left. because of something you felt wasnt right.. what is laughfable is that you CREATED YOUR OWN ART!!!

cmon man, get real......

[SilentNightfall]

Muay Thai has never been slammed? Heh heh heh. Do a tad bit more research on this. There's also quite a number of videos that show it's many flaws.

And you say you found Taijutsu to be boring? Wow... That's a first. I've never actually heard of anyone finding the art boring. I've loved every class and every moment of my training. Maybe it's just me though, eh? Also, I've never found anything to be ineffective, only my own movement making things ineffective at the present moment in which it was used. Remember, these techniques come from an era where the things that worked on the battlefield came back to be added to someone's repertoire. As for a lack of sparring, I'm not even going to go there, unless by sparring you mean randori, which should still only cover about 10% or less of your training.

All the same, good luck with your own style.

[Sonshu]

It is a collection of all the years I have been cross training - I have spend 4 years getting it in order and adding to it - what is that so odd - plenty of people do it.

I teach it and it adds to my skill set all the time.

Cos you are not able to see past the box - aint my problem!

[Sonshu]

No one really ever says MT is in effective???????????????

It is a great stand up art - also do you do 10% sparing?

I decided the Yokoruki (SP) is of little use in the ways I was doing it and hence dropped it. There was for me too much time spent doing the same old bloody locks - outside, inside, stright arm lock.
And as for the Fudoken.

Yes any move is possible if someone attacks you with an unrealistic punch! There needs to be more contact in the art (sparing and pressure testing) and then it will stand up better in the street.

I enjoyed doing it but for me there was a lot of politics and things that were not right and a little to unrealistic. There are great points to it but I prefer what I do and use it for the basis of Sonshu and have added lots to it and dropped lots!

[xplasma]

Originally posted by Sonshu
to give a few that I have not heard slammed.

I left Taijitsu as I started to find it boring and also large parts of it fairly in effective and also the last of sparing was a critical flaw at the three schools I have trained at.

I created my own style that has a Taijitsu base and that way removed the politics and addressed the missing parts IMO.

Lack of sparring?

I spar at my ninjtusu dojo every Friday. We do 1 on 1 and 2 on 1 situation. Anything is allowed (striking, locks, ground fighting). However, becuase we don't use pads we try to stay away from hard strikes to the face. But this genbukan. As SilentNightfall said we are more aggressive in our training. The few months I was at Bujinkan we didn't spar once.

[Sonshu]

As this is the only style I have done and BBD (Brian McCarthy).

Not done Genbukan, would like to but Bujinkan does have a tendancy for a softer contact side - hence why people stay longer in the art as there is no pressure testing.

DONT GET ME WRONG GUYS I DEFEND THE ART BUT SEE ITS FLAWS AND UNDERSTAND THEM, HOWEVER WHAT IS GOOD IS GREAT.

[SilentNightfall]

Well, first of all, I do not call it sparring. I call it randori as "sparring" makes me think of pads, points for any strike landed, etc. There are many Bujinkan dojos, however, that do not do randori. The Japanese, for instance, do not partake in sparring/randori from what I have been told. And I mean this strictly for Ninjutsu in Japan. As far as Muay Thai goes, I've seen more than one video of someone just having to come down on the leg of a M.T. practitioner as they kicked and the leg was turned into jello. Not a pretty sight. And once again, M.T. is a ring art, not a combat one so I do doubt its overall effectiveness on the street.

[SilentNightfall]

Oh, and I completely forgot the topic of the unrealistic punch... Heh. It's obvious that you don't grasp the fundamentals and principles of our art enough to understand why so many techniques are done off of an exaggerated, straight-line punch. In my dojo, however, we also work with crosses, low punches, haymakers, etc. But anyway, perhaps some of my other fellow Bujinkan friends can explain the whole "ninja" punch thing. I actually don't have the time as of now to keep on posting. I have work that needs to be done before I go out later on. Heh heh.

[Sonshu]

I think you are somewhat misguided on what works in a fight and what does not!

MT is an excellent art and works bloods well on the street. As I said I did Taijitsu for about 7 years so I have a pretty good idea of the flaws in it as its not the case I had 2 lessons or somthing.

Sparing or the japanese name "Randori" is critical for combat effectiveness. Have you ever been in a real fight outside of school?

Also I would like to hear your interpretation of the Fudoken punch as I know its uses and all but would be keen to hear your version. If somthing works in the ring it will work out of the ring. Its when stuff only works in the Dojo that it often does not cross over to the outside world.

Please explain as I am keen to hear and willing to wait as you seem so sure of its validity?

[Brad Ellin]

I for one, can vouch for the validity of Budo Taijutsu as taught in the Bujinkan. Yes, it is street effective. If you feel that it isn't, it isn't the art but rather the way you were taught. No, I've never fought in a ring, but I have worked as a bouncer and done security for parties and concerts and have had to "calm" down a few rowdy patrons. And yes, I have been in a fight. More than a few times. My Taijutsu training is what enabled me to walk away each time, instead of crawling or being carried away.
Oh, and we don't "spar" in class. Never have. Hmm... still, I seem to come out on top in all my encounters...
Flaws? Haven't found one yet. But then again, maybe I understand that its PRINCIPLE and not TECHNIQUE that is being taught. And I have had instructors that were/are skilled enough in getting that point across.

Enough for today. If I'm lucky I'll get to follow this thread this afternoon. Otherwise, see you Saturday night.

[Sonshu]

I agee I have used Taijitsu in fights and got the first hit in stunned the person and walked all over them

Also I agree Taijitsu is the thoughts and methods behind the art rather than the fighting and there are good lessons in the style as I say I am a fan of it.

However the sparing is critical!!!!!!!!!!!! and this should not be ignored. I think that you must have this to have a full level of combat effectiveness. Working as security I have done as well on the odd bash but dealing with pissed people when I am sober is different to a level pegging fight in a bar.

The Fudoken punch has power no doubt but is of little use and is trained to much at the expense of other more realistic punches. Flaws there are sadly a few I feel but it is a great style and will teach many things others done - this is what I appectiate it for.

[stump]

<<<M.T. is a ring art, not a combat one so I do doubt its overall effectiveness on the street.>>>

Be serious. How often do you get to practise against someone who's trying to hit you properly? In Muay thai you face that from an early stage in sparring.

I'm not knocking nin/tai/whatever jutsu at all. How often do you pressure test the stuff? That's one advantage Muay thai has over most arts...full contact pressure testing. A MT elbow will work better than most other techniques in a fight to stop someone.

You seem to think that because there are sporting elements to certain arts they are useless in a real go. Boxing, Kick/Thai boxing and MMA may not be complete self defence arts but they're a hell of a lot beter than most stuff out there passing for self defence

[Sonshu]

Still Silentnight will get the picture in time.

[SilentNightfall]

Guess I have to make a few points as to why I doubt the overall effectiveness of what are catehorized under the "sport art" category of martial arts, and yes, M.T. is designated as such because of it being done in a ring. First of all, in M.T., you are assuming that you will see the attack coming. Never in M.T. training have I seen guys work with getting out of chokes or working with ground fighting. I think a good self-defense art teaches from every angle and every situation. But I don't doubt its credibility when dealing with frontal attacks. It does have good strikes. Not ones that I would choose to throw as far as its kicks, mind you, but the elbows are pretty effective. Again, those videos leave a bad taste in my mouth when all a guy had to do was come down with his foot on the leg of a Muay Thai practitioner and his leg was just...not lookin' pretty.

Now then...the Fudoken punch... Was never really talking about using it for its power in an actual fight. I was talking about why it is used in the dojo for training. Like Brad said, it is all about priciples, not techniques, though my dojo does utilize a variety of different punches. If yours did not I'm sorry to say that you definitely missed out. I don't see where you see these flaws coming in as I surely have not found them. Perhaps you would like to state specifics outside of the Fudoken because that isn't really an issue if you understand why we use it a lot when demonstrating. The Japanese use it in their training as do people all over the world in Ninjutsu and these techniques have been practiced as such for hundreds of years. If they weren't effective you would think they would be dropped by now. Ninjutsu is a combat art. What doesn't work is thrown out so what is left has been tested by those with more skills than any of us could ever hope to have. Understand?

[stump]

Contrary to popular opinion I don't think the fact that it's a sport is a bad thing. A thai boxer has as much chance of dealing with a surprise attack as anyone else has...one definite advantage they have over the average ninjutsuka is they are tougher and better conditioned and as a rule fitter. These are factors that will help you survive a fight, irrespective of where it is.

It has the most powerful kicks of any martial art.

<<<I think a good self-defense art teaches from every angle and every situation.>>>

I agree. If I wanted pure self defence I'd look at a group like the BCA or the SDF. A self defence group, not a martial art.

<<<Again, those videos leave a bad taste in my mouth when all a guy had to do was come down with his foot on the leg of a Muay Thai practitioner and his leg was just...not lookin' pretty.>>>

I'm not sure what you're getting at with this

[moromoro]

quote
""""""Cos you are not able to see past the box - aint my problem!
"""""""


sorry GRANDMASTER SONSHU



you started your own art for the ego your the grandmaster now man!!!!

the main man

i guess you could kick hatsumis and tanemura ass couldnt you your in the same league now boy!!

[Sonshu]

Ok I will go through some other things that did not sit well with me.

1) The Sanshin Kata. The techniques are far to old, the standing on one leg hicho stance is POO!!!!! and I have dropped it.

2) The distraction technique in Ku does not work to well but the Zempo Geri is great.

3) The Fudoken is not just done for showing techniques it is a tradional move that is used in the SD and the most defended against punch in the Bujinkan. Yes it can deliver power but is too slow and obvious.

4) Some of the weapons defences and drills are a bit shaky. The Bo Staff overhead strike is a dodge one and the idea of doing a forward roll under a Katana to hold the handle up is just poor.

5) No sparing? and next to no ground fighting as a rule!

6) To many 10th dans who are appalling at fighting and technique?

PLEASE REMEMBER I LIKE AND APPROVE OF MANY THINGS IN IT AND I HAVE KEPT THESE.

Here are a few and I did use a lot of punches but that was because of my MT/Kickboxing before Taijitsu. Remember I did this style of a fair while, and because there is no sparring it means there is less pressure so you dont often see how good you are and effective. Hence (Sweeping generalisation I know) but many people cant fight in the style and that I saw as a huge problem. This was brought to light in the MMA tournaments. Taijitsu was rated the least effective style in UFC, this is just a statement but to me its an indication of the lack of ground fighting in the style as you mentioned it did this earlier.

[Sonshu]

Right as you have not bothered to ask I will explain.

I am not the Grandmaster or any of that crap I dont use titles or sensei or any tradional stuff like that. - I teach a small class of people due to work constraints and I train with people of other arts every week where I go to learn from them.

Chances of me ever meeting let along fighting or beating them is slim so try to keep in the real world.

Why is what I have done so odd? What I do works and works pretty well getting quick results and marked significant improvement from my students and I have got a lot out of what I do and been able to analyse what I have done.

You obviously have nothing to add to the thread so dont post on it man, its easy to gob off on the internet and as far away as you are but at least try to add to the forum hey.

[moromoro]

muay thai is awesome. it is a striking art so silent they dont learn escapes from locks... but you try to fight a skilled MT guy that knows the ground game!!! your in trouble..... look at silva vs sakuraba.......

i come from a backgroud in both muay thai since 94 i train with danny blake a close friend of mine he is the assistant trainer of 2001 k1 champ Mark Hunt........ i also have trained in taijutsu since 94.. and submision wrestling fr japan (SAW) for 5 years... (as well as eskrima since 1986)

so i can say that muay thai is an excellent supplement for training... if its one thing that makes these guys hard to stop its their conditioning their use to taking a battering........


its a good art....

[stump]

<<<you started your own art for the ego your the grandmaster now man!!!!

the main man

i guess you could kick hatsumis and tanemura ass couldnt you your in the same league now boy!!>>>

what a **** :rolleyes:

[moromoro]

why do people start there own arts...today

psychologically it must be an ego thing.....

[Sonshu]

I came from a Boxing then Wado Karate background then into MT/Kickboxing and onto Taijitsu for a fair while. I stopped this as I was put off by the points I have mentioned above and my Taijistu was good and used it in fights etc.......... but.

I then moved due to work and tried out Karate Jitsu, Judo, Jujitsu, Aikido, Kuk Sool Wan, TKD, MMA and I hope Silat soon list goes on.

Because I go to a lot of seminars - one last weekend for the whole weekend - (All CAMA guys hi it was good) I pick up lots of stuff from all over the place and styles, bits of escrima etc.

At these seminars I see stuff that I think is practical and I like and things that I dont trust - I take the good and leave the bad, by creating my own style it is not for marketing as I dont charge my students, its not for big ups for me as I am only known for doing it in my local area.

I do this to remember and catalog what I know and to share my experience with the decent people who invite me to train. This is why not for an attitude but I have such an open aproach to things because of the number of influences I am exposed to. I just take what works and leave the rest.

[Zamfoo]

i just wanted to know an estimate of how much trainng it takes to reach shodan in ninjutsu. How did it turn into this fight?

[stump]

Well you wanted to liven up the board :)

[xplasma]

I been on the board for about 2 months and I found great discussion in many of the styles board. However, ninjutsu isn't one of them. Besides Kurohana and I, it doesn't seen anyone else care to talk about ninpo techniques and even knows anything about ninpo. I know I been very unimpressed by SilentNightFall and I serious question if you have any practial ninpo knowledge to add. With the except of how much to hate Tanemura Sensei. I tried to switch the conversion from the x-kan debates and bashing Muay Thai, again SilentNightFall, in my opinion Mauy Thai isn't perfect but a GREAT art. I introduced threads about the element-kata, and shuriken-jutsu. I even posted begging anyone to talk about any style contained in ninpo. The only response I got was Yoda. Yoda who isn't even a ninjutsu practioner, thank you Yoda.

Kurohana, I ask you to support me in this because I feel you know a lot and can contribute a lot to ninpo training questions.

Will any one else join me?

[Zamfoo]

xplasma is right we should use this board as a way to help and learn. Once i start to train i plan to dicuss techiniques and other training aspects not fight about what is best or flawed.

[Kinjiro Tsukasa]

I am too new to have much knowledge to share, but I do want to learn more about ninjutsu (not interested in bashing any style).

[SilentNightfall]

Plasma, first of all you have to understand that no one is here on this board to impress you. In fact, I am not here to impress anyone. My time online spent posting is very much divided between a number of forums. Unfortunately I post more on other ninjutsu-specific boards more than on MAP. When I am on this forum I tend to devote my time to those threads in which I have already begun participating before beginning others. As long as I keep having to address things in this thread, I won't move on to any other thread unless it requires a simple, one-post answer. Perhaps once the topic gets interesting I will add any knowledge on the subject, but as of right now, I haven't seen anything except the names of various shuriken and a discussion as to how well a fantasy weapon handles. Not exactly something that needs my input.

Back to the discussion prior, I'd like to remind everyone that I never said M.T. wasn't a good art, just that from what I've seen occur on the streets, I don't think training in M.T. would be enough. There needs to be additions to the average M.T. fighter's skills. This is why cross-training exists.

On to Mr. Sonshu... The more responses you give the more I begin to doubt the length of your training in ninjutsu. You first slam the Sanshin No Kata because it is old, yet Hatsumi-sensei constantly tells us to train the Sanshin and Kihon Happo because they contain all the basic fundamentals. The Sanshin are a training tool, my friend. They teach you how to move. You think too much about technique and not enough about principle. You also say the distraction technique in Ku No Kata is not effective? Heh. I've experienced otherwise when Papa-san demonstrated it on me personally to show the class. Then you downplay Hicho No Kata when it is meant to simply teach one how to fight on one leg and utilize your weight, especially with one of its variations. On to weapons... Have you ever seen the Japanese do the technique where they roll beneath the blade of the sword? No? Because I've watched it and its frightening to see. Not going to address the Fudoken again so you keep thinking what you want on that one. I have seen it where the Fudoken was not obvious at all because it was hidden from view. Again, it's all about how you use it. Last point to make... You say there is little or no ground fighting? Again, stop generalizing. You should be saying that where you trained rarely covered these things in all your time there. That does not represent all Bujinkan dojos. I have covered ground fighting various times. It all depends on what topics the instructor is teaching. There are nine schools to cover. You get to ground fighting eventually. You just need to search out someone to teach you if you are so impatient. Well, that's it for now. Later, all.

[thiaboxr2]

This is a forum! Quit bickering amongst each other. everyone is only expressing their OPINION. Not FACTS.

We are here to learn about arts, not dissect them. There is no need to retaliate everytime someone says " this art " is not good. Just leave it at that and continue with the MAIN TOPIC. Which is about Ninjitsu. Not Muey Thia. Not Karate.

Opinions are not facts, just personel beliefs of individuals expressed freely.

[Sonshu]

Why do you doubt my training in Taijitsu yet I can name when given examples of stuff I did not like.

Funny that.

Right first off remember I have said plenty of times I like the style and it did teach me the fundamentals for my now training.

2nd I did say it was old because they are only training from traditional stances and there were a few I did not think that applicable. It is IMO wrong to train standing on one leg to defend against a knife or bottle attack as that is generally what that technique was used for. No one else would try a lower abdoman/waist height thrusting attack otherwise.

Also please explain to me your ground fighting as such and what techniques you learnt from Taijitsu?

Kihon Happo is a great Drill and there are many good things in this I like so I will not critisie this one as it is the 8 fundamental basics not Sanshin - As I learnt it.

So please answer the above with credible answers to show your experience before you critisise mine.

Also for the katana rolling if you class Thai Kai's as watching Japanese people doing it then yes. But the risk far out weights the chances of it coming off for us mortals....... Wake up!

[Airyu]

Hello Everyone,

As an answer to the original question: within many of the various schools in the Bujinkan Dojo network, the time to acheive Shodan varies. Usually it is between 2 - 5 years. There have been many people promoted within the Bujinkan Dojo by Soke Hatsumi, to high ranks. Once asked why he does this, his reply was, "he expects them to live up to their rank or they will fall away from the art". I have many high ranks who didn't know very basic material, as well as very proficient high rank as well. Since there is no standardized curriculum within the Bujinkan Dojo(under Hatsumi) it is difficult for a student to compare one school to another. Soke Hatsumi has spoken of at least 10 years of practice before testing for Godan, but this is not always true even now. This was in 1996, when I tested for Godan, I was # 598 0r 99. Today there are over 1800 Godan! As well as two hundred Judan!!

As an answer to "Why people start there own arts", Ego can be a part of the puzzle but not always. Bruce Lee, was fed up with the half truths and myths from various masters he trained with and also wanted to present an art that allowed practitioners freedom.
Freedom to be themself, train realistically, and experience various arts to help augment their own skill level. At one point or another all arts were created by a person who felt they had an alternative way of doing things, maybe better, maybe not. Time is the best judge to weed out various arts.

I hope this helps offer some more insight to this thread.

Train Hard it is the way!

Steven Lefebvre
Manager, Bujinkan Dojo,LLC.
www.Bujinkandojo.net

[Sonshu]

Thank you for the post you have put. Does it not bother you about people getting high grades when they are not at a suitable level to perform at that rank?

As you say you have high grades who are not good with the basics but to me this is why often Taijitsu is sadly not seen as that good a martial art inside MA circles.

To me I wanted it to be as good as the potential it had - just my thoughts?

[Airyu]

Hello Sonshu,

Honestly, I have thought about this question many times, and my answer is Yes. Quality is much better than quantity. Many of the European schools have a much higher quality based student, than many of the schools I have seen crop up in the USA. They practice the kata contained in the training outline, Tenchijin no maki, and have set high standards for their students. I have tried very hard over the years to establish the same in my students. It means sticking to a curriculum that allows a student to progress in a manner where they can understand the basics (kihon happo, sanshin no kata, ukemi , ryuha kata etc) and then learn to express these principles and tactics in henka. Too many people want to be and train like Soke Hatsumi as he is today! Yet, they have not put enough time into serious hardcore fundamental practice to grasp those effortless fluid moves he demonstrates. Almost every famous martial arts legend practiced as if their life depended on it. Takamatsu, Musashi, Bruce Lee, Parker, Inosanto, Sayoc, Yagyu, Ueshiba this list goes on and on. Each of them forged themselves in serious hardcore and sometimes dangerous training and conflict to become what they were. Why now is it any different?

Great thread.

Train Hard it is the Way!

Steve Lefebvre

www.Bujinkandojo.net

[Sonshu]

I wish there was more pride in belts that you earn. I have earnt every belt I have ever got. I worked hard for them and I have to say I have not advanced a belt in the past 4 years or so because of my cross training but I value all I have got.

This is a real flaw with Taijitsu and really should be addressed. If someone is a 7th dan I would expect them to be able to fight darn well - age depending. Also that they were comparable to a 7th dan in another style - not much worse.

It is such a shame that schools and people let standards slip and its the same that its not put right.

[Brad Ellin]

Wow. It's going to take me a little time to read thru thoroughly and catch up on what has been said.

Tai Kai (at tleast the day and a half I participated in) was FANTASTIC!!! Sensei is looking good, moving good and as amazing as ever.

One secret... don't let someone else take pictures with you camera. Most of the time Sensei was moving to much to take a clear picture (no flash allowed) and then only good posed shot was the one I took. THe one taken of me with Sensei didn't come out well.

I'll get back to the thread this afternoon.

[Brad Ellin]

"1) The Sanshin Kata. The techniques are far to old, the standing on one leg hicho stance is POO!!!!! and I have dropped it."

Correct me if I have misinterpreted this... but I feel the reason you think this is "POO" is like most people you have taken the static representation of Kamae to be a stance. Kamae are not static. They are fluid moving attitudes broken down into moments in time. The kamae labeled "Hicho no kamae" is a good example. You do not stand on one leg waiting for your opponent to strike (a la Karate Kid). This leg is raised when your opponent strikes or sweeps at you leading leg, and you want to remain in a safe yet effective striking distance. The picture of someone standing with one leg raised is misleading. That position is only held for a fraction of a second, enough time to avoid being hit, and voila`, you're ready to kick, strike whatever.

2) The distraction technique in Ku does not work to well but the Zempo Geri is great.

Turn the distraction into a scrape, eye jab, thumb to the throat, pinch (Thank's Bud) and then you'll see how effective it is. Again, I feel, you have lost sight of the "feeling" of the technique. The Sanshin no kata and Kihon Happo are the building blocks or foundation of Taijutsu. They have been culled from the Nine schools that make up the Bujinkan. They are NOT engraved in stone. Rather the idea is to understand (on a level beyond the physical) the principle or feeling of each technique, and forget the technique. Hey, I have a bum knee, do you think I'm going to do my techniques the same way as you? Ed Martin's hips have been "structurally" enhanced :) yet I had an opportunity to watch him in action the past weekend. He does not move like I do. His interpretation of the the Kihon is different that mine. Doesn't make mine wrong and his right. Just makes them different.

3) The Fudoken is not just done for showing techniques it is a tradional move that is used in the SD and the most defended against punch in the Bujinkan. Yes it can deliver power but is too slow and obvious"

Too slow? Too obvious? Umm,,, I have to disagree there. In demonstration, maybe. But there are many times you don't realize that it has been used until too late and you are laying on the ground rubbing you head in wonderment. In an actual combat situation punches are going to come from anywhere at any distance.

My feeling (and please remember that this is only my opinion, based on what I have read here, I may change my mind if we ever get a chance to train or talk over a few beers) is that your instructor passed along partial knowledge to you. He took his interpretation and passed it as gospel. He may have been a good or even great martial artist, but, unable to transmit this same knowledge. Or he may have been fed bad information himself, and in turn is teaching it. Don't know. But, please don't stop disagreeing or posting you ideas or opinions, they are very valuable to all of us. Even those who may not agree. Evertime one of us posts here it causes some to research in order to refute or confirm. It's a great big learning process for us all.

[Sonshu]

I have always liked what you have posted etc.

1) The points you have reaised are ones I have covered a lot and do fully (I think) understand the representations people have on them and I also agree that Taijitsu is an art for experimentation at its best. However the purpose of that technique is as such in stance to stand and defend these type of attacks at any point of being one legged and this is a stance that needs to be adopted for the technique. You are surely just better doing a side kick rather than being full on. This is just my practical SD view on it, I just think its a very bad idea IMO.

2) I read this technique as a solid one and love the kick as I have said, however the stance you are in is again as solid stance and if you are in this stance the kick is a great technique. However if you are able to do this eye jab etc then you are too close to do the kick, its just my view and the kick is great but I dislike the traditional version of this in the kata - but as said love and really do use the kick in sparing.

3) Not 100% convinced on this and I have used the technique but it is the one that is drilled and trained off mostly. I know there is a great amount of power in it but there should be more emphasis training on other more effective strikes. Also basic boxing skills as all the locks etc are easy to apply to the OTT Fudoken. :D

[havoc123]

at my school u must be in that school for 5 years before u are even eligable for black belt, (genbukan)

[Bouk Teef]

Eight years.

[Bouk Teef]

Correct me if I have misinterpreted this... but I feel the reason you think this is "POO" is like most people you have taken the static representation of Kamae to be a stance. Kamae are not static. They are fluid moving attitudes broken down into moments in time. The kamae labeled "Hicho no kamae" is a good example. You do not stand on one leg waiting for your opponent to strike (a la Karate Kid). This leg is raised when your opponent strikes or sweeps at you leading leg, and you want to remain in a safe yet effective striking distance. The picture of someone standing with one leg raised is misleading. That position is only held for a fraction of a second, enough time to avoid being hit, and voila`, you're ready to kick, strike whatever.
[/B]

I agree.
I prefer to think of the stances as "snap shots". Although a movie looks seemless it is made up of many single frames. People often misinterpret the stances as seperate entities. The kata should be performed in one movement. It is split into stances in order to teach the movement to students.

[Shinden]

I have been training since March 2001 and are now nikyu

In the beginning of Jinenkan there were only ranks from sankyu up to godan.
Today there are from 9 kyu up to 9 dan(5 dan up to 9 dan are given from sensei to the pupil, when he thinks that the student is ready for it).

A guess how many years before you become shodan.....I would say around...5-6 years.....but remember that shodan in Jinenkan only describes that you now have decided to bee "a serious student"

[Aquadra0n]

It is funny to read different opinions of ranking. I have been training for about 7 months now. I wear a white belt and know that green is next, but don't know when. Honestly don't even know what rank my sensei is. But i do know this, he is teaching me what he knows and gives me more when he feels i am ready. I respect him, because i "see" his actions and the way that he moves, i can feel his intent when he shows me something.

I think this art is a way of being, or method of learning how to be. In that view a ranking means little to me. I know that i am learning a foundation to build upon, that is what is important to me.

I am wondering if this importance of rank comes into play more when a student seperates from their original teacher, and is left to find a new one with enough new knowledge to share.

I plan to stay with my sensei as long as i can, hopefully untill the day he can turn to me and say, their is no more i can teach you. That is where i would venture out to find more. I don't really see that day coming to soon though, because he is continually learning, and i am learning from him. If i left and came back, he would teach me what he learned, and i would share with him what i had learned. That i think is the way of the ninja.

thanks to all that post "meaningful content" i am sure you know who you are. I have read some good stuff on these forums.

=- Ryan -=

[Sonshu]

However I doubt he will ever say "I can teach u no more", just stick at it and you should be fine - also I think the avarage time for gradings in the Bujinkan is about every 4 months for up until Dan grade.

Still I had to wait much longer as well!

[ns_oni]

I run about a k, 30 pushups and 40 situps every night ( roughly ) ( im still teenage years ) Im in bujinkan at the moment, but i do take alot from other styles of ninjutsu when i train at home.

Who do you think will be the next grand master ?

[ninja4u2hire]

took me six years to achieve shodan

[sshh]

[CAUTION - Very Long Post (you may want to go grab a snack first)]


I've lost track of the original discussion (thread topic says "...random...to liven the board" - responses seem pretty random as well!)

My best guess is we are to share our personal experiences with gaining rank. I'm not a blackbelt yet, might be close to it by now <shrug> but I hope my input is welcome anyway.

To the question, "How long to get black belt in ninjutsu?" - there have been a few answers from students of different arts to give a rough estimate. I've seen the 2-5 year average in my observations as well. It depends on so many factors, so I expect there to be wide variance.

Predictably, when someone puts the words "bujinkan" and "rank" in the same paragraph, it opens the can-of-worms that we have gotten a taste of here. Some of us have seen this discussion ebb and flow like the tide over many years. I may add some opinions on that, but first . . .

To add my data to the sampling, I've been training in the bujinkan since '98 / '99, and in nishio-ryu aikido since '01. I am not a blackbelt in either.

Training in both styles simultaneously gives me first-hand experience into the "different strokes for different folks" variety of colored-belt ranking schemes in MA (I had also taken a karate/kung fu/taekwondo art in the past, and am familiar with getting a different color of the rainbow every month because I was able to memorize some dance steps).

My experience in the buj' is that ranking is a pretty casual affair. Serious students don't take ranking very seriously - they have lost the critical mass of ego required to really care about such things, I suppose. You start out with a white belt for a while - this lets "the big kids" know not to play too rough with ya'. Then when you are less of a danger to yourself and others, you wear a green belt - why? Because green is a pretty color (could be another reason, but who cares, I like the color green). Really all this means is you train in the art, but aren't a serious enough student and don't know enough basics to wear a blackbelt. The blackbelt lets other people know that at least some level of above-average effort was put into learning the art, and all the dan beyond are steps on the path.

One cannot compare the ranking structure between separate MA's. In the bujinkan, it seems hard to compare ranking between dojo, but it's fine overall. If there are any disparities, get together and talk it out, or train it out, but please stop complaining because you don't understand.

I got my first promotion in a bujinkan dojo after a few months to a year; can't remember exactly when (will have to check the date on the certificate, which I'm sure is buried around here somewhere). Sensei came to me after class one night and told me to start wearing a green belt, so I did. Wasn't any formal testing, not much ado concerning the matter at all. Soon after (later in the week, or so), I was presented with a 7th kyu rank certificate - again, casually, like "oh by the way, you can have this."

What happened to 9th kyu and 8th kyu? - Who cares? Quality control? An individual's rank is between his sensei and himself, and functions as an internal (within the dojo) guide to measure training experience. Each shidoshi has their own curriculum (or lack of same), and feelings about rank.

I trained for about another year at that particular dojo, then moved upstate to go to college. I joined a local aikido club, and later found a nearby bujinkan training group, and have been doing a little of both ever since. I don't know what rank I am in ninpo, I demonstrated the kihon happo blindfolded once, and was told that earned me 6th kyu, but no piece of paper from Japan yet. I have also been hinted to by some instructors and blackbelt-level students that wearing my green belt might cause people to underestimate me, and I guess I can take that as a compliment. I have trained with blackbelts that obviously had less skill and experience than myself, but until my shidoshi tells me otherwise, I'll stick with the pretty green sash.

Does this confuse people and make it hard to know which rank means what? Definitely! But the people that get confused by it are unaffected by it in reality, and have no business to question it, unless they are in the same organization - in which case they can ask about such-and-such; get an answer, and if they're satisfied, great. If not, maybe they'll leave the organization and make room for someone who cares more about training than the number of pieces-of-paper-with-kanji-drawn-on-them that they can own (and when they'll get them).

This has been my experience in the bujinkan. The training is life-and-death serious - the costumes, the protocol, the certificates, the politics, etc. is a bit more casual than in many modern arts (I can contrast this directly with aikido, and may do so in a later paragraph). It's like, "Hey glad to see you're getting better, I appreciate you sticking with the training. It's been a while since your last promotion - here's a gold star to make you feel better. Now run along, and have fun playing with your friends."


Ok, just a little contrasting statements about aikido. In the style I practice, you are a white belt until you are a black belt. There is a formal test every 3-8 months to earn kyu ranks from 5th-1st, then a blackbelt test when student and teacher are ready. It's as simple as that, and I like it 'cause it's simple. Does the formal ranking structure, strict dress code, honorable Japanese protocol, and "study this, as this is what will be on the test" training method make me better able to defend myself? I don't think it does. Compared to my buj' training, I actually find it to be a hindrance as it takes time and focus away from the art itself. On the other hand '-do' type martial arts are known to be more about discipline, manners, and spiritual (character) development than combat-effectiveness.


As if that wasn't enough to read through (congratulations if you made it this far - ninja are known for endurance that borders on stubbornness!) - I'm going to touch on a few more points that have found there way into this thread:

1) Moromoro: “i have known of a few people who have gotten 10th dans after only a few years training...(bujinkan)”

And I have known a few cats who aren’t very good at catching mice. A few here, and a few there are called “statistical outliers” and do not represent accurately the population as a whole.

I saw this posted elsewhere, and will try to find who wrote it, but I like it so much, I have to repeat it here: “If you’re going to troll, at least use fresh bait.”

Ok, covers that.

2) xplasma: “Ummm.... then I lost respect I had for Bujinkan. No wonder Tanemura left. I am glad to be in Genbukan where the ranks still mean something.”

For whatever reason Tanemura sensei and yourself have for training in the Gembukan, and not in the Bujinkan, that is because of your personal preferences. If rank is important enough to you that you want something more structured and easier to understand, then I’m so glad that you found something that provides what you’re looking for. If the differences make you lose respect for the Bujinkan, then it is for the best that you are not with us. From what I’ve seen, Gembukan training is really good stuff, hope that and knowing exactly when you’re getting a black belt motivates you to continue training.

3) Zamfoo: “how much do you guys train?”

An important factor in determining time-to-promotion. For myself, I try to average at least 2 classes per week, and a seminar once a month. Some people who earn blackbelts in 2 years, do so because they train over 20 hours per week, and can afford to travel to the best seminars), others like myself who has almost six years in the art, yet isn’t likely to be more than halfway to shodan is often a product of inconsistent training, coupled with a lack of desire to have to buy a new belt of a different color when the faded, tattered strip of cloth I’m using now works just fine at strapping my swords to my body. In other words, I’m a poor college student and can’t afford to train as often as I like.”

4) Silentnightfall: “Interesting that the issue of rank now arises on this board as well. . . . “

You covered most of the party-line bases. That’s just the way it is in the bujinkan. Some people like it, some people don’t. For the sake of the individual in training, I hope you have a good instructor, and are getting what you want from your efforts.

5) Sonshu:

I respect your opinions, and admire your enterprising spirit to create your own style. I have no problem with doing that, and I don’t think anyone else should either, unless there is any sort of dishonesty going on (e.g. claiming to teach ninjutsu when you really don’t, etc.)
I am also of the opinion that your feelings about bujinkan training are a result of incomplete instruction. In which case, it was in your best interest to find something else. Bufu Ikkan!

“But from a 10th dan you expect somthing special and I think the whole MA community would from any style.”

I agree with this, and it is unfortunate when you meet someone with high credentials, but not much to back it up. These people act as an example of what goes wrong when people respect rank more than skill. The word will eventually spread that there are better teachers out there (with lower ranks even), and Mr. still-trying-to-grow-into-these-big-fancy-pants will miss out on good students that possess a discerning eye.

I have heard that the recommended way to handle the politics of misplaced rank in the bujinkan is to confront the person, talk with them, train with them, maybe even fight them in a dual if you are so inclined, and then make up your own mind of what rank they should have. If more people did this, then more people would know who is better to train with and who to avoid. Name-calling, speculation, back-biting, complaining, disparaging the bujinkan name on account of a few rogue mega-dan will not further the betterment of society.

6) xplasma: “Every time I walk into a Bujinkan Dojo I would be about 2-3 white belts, 1-2 green belts, then about 10 or more black belts.
I always wonder why.”

I haven’t noticed a trend like that in the dojo I have been to (except for advanced seminars of course). But I have a hypothesis that might explain how that happens.
Given 15-20 students (not quite enough for viable statistics, but whatever…) having two-thirds of a class made up of blackbelts tells me that those who are dedicated enough to earn them stick around and make up the bulk of the regular training group. Some beginners give up after only a couple years, so the number of white and green belted students stays at a relatively low and constant level. Most bujinkan dojo don’t advertise very much and don’t bring in a lot of new students, so the majority of class (which is likely small in number – 15 students seems like a lot to me!) have been around a while. Now, if you were to ask all the blackbelts in that class how long they have been training, and nearly everybody says, “a few months” then it’s time to find out what kind of curriculum and ranking structure the instructor is using and why.

I think I’ve covered everything that came to mind. I must apologize for my verbose style of writing. I’m so used to writing term papers for school. It’s habitual. Hope you enjoyed it anyway, and if it spurns further discussion/debate – groovy.

[Zamfoo]

Wow this thread is still here??? I only wanted to get people talking on the board it was REALLY slow so i posted this. Very nice book eerr i mean post :P i truly will never grasp the whole xkan wars thingy. We're all training in Ninpo get over the fact that you have a different sensei or whatever. If we trained together how much more could we learn?

[ninja4u2hire]

very nice sshh...but very long. I agree with you, I've studied sho-in-ryu karate, and capoeira along with ninjutsu, and I even though I'm now 2nd dan in bujinkan I still don't believe that the color of belt, rope, or sash means squat. If you know it, you know it, and if you're good, even better. But...I have to admitt, it did feel good, like the hard work and long years paid off when I recieved my black belt.
Thanks for the post. :)

[Tudoggz]

wows! longest post i think ive read hehehe but awesom. i agree with you totally. i think our dojo's are alike, and our sensei's in the way they grade and feel!. with the whole black belt issue, its different with every dojo. look at the person's flow, foot work, technique, feeling ect ect! then decide wat the person is like! not just hes got a black belt he must be awesom! :P thats just my opinion ehheeh :D

peace

[SilentNightfall]

Many of you who have the attitude that, "I'm going to train with whomever I want and no one is going to stop me," I feel it necessary to shed some light on areas where you may not be looking. First of all, if you train in an art and the head of that art requests that his students do not train with a certain person or group of people, then you either respect that wish or you leave the organization. It is about respect. Hatsumi-sensei has his reasons for what he has requested. It is not a rule in the Bujinkan laws to not train with the Genbukan or the Jinenkan; however, it is very well known that Sensei has requested this of his students and it is my belief that if Hatsumi-sensei was respected by his students, then all would honor this request. Many say they can't see the difference or why it really matters, but since when has everyone been able to grasp how and why Sensei does what he does. Perhaps there are differences, feelings, and other such things in the training that differ and Hatsumi-sensei does not wish those in the Bujinkan to pick up. If Manaka or Tanemura one day decreed that his students should not train in the Bujinkan or any other Ninjutsu organizations, practitioners of their respective schools should honor this request and only train in that one organization. No one asked anyone to understand the reasoning behind it. The choice, again, is to simply comply and respect Hatsumi-sensei's request, or don't. Now, this doesn't mean that you can't allow GBK or JNK members to join your classes and that you can't train in the park with a GBK member (at least in my eyes). I simply believe that if you seek active instruction from the Genbukan and Jinenkan as a Bujinkan member, it may be time to ship out of the organization. This rant brought to you by an enlightening thread discussion on E-budo about giri, respect, and other suuch topics pertaining to this exact conversation.

[honest_john]

There is no one answer. It depends on style, person, health, dedication, master, lifestyle, ecetera.

Amen to that, those who winge about different schools etc, should think about this a little more...

[cloudgodd]

Zamfoo : To tell you the truth it dose depend on how much you train, but I can guarantee you, you will not receive one rank you have not earn from Lyle, he is a vary good teacher. By the way ask him to call me or write sometime...

SONSHU: I think it is great you created your own style, good for you, keep up the good work, because in 2000 yrs people will be on there holograms arguing if your MA is the best, every art started somewhere why do we have to be ancients to be right?
On kamae it is a posture, not really sure what the "kans" use them for, but in kurai kotori it was a defensive move to save your leg, that is hicho no kamae.....Taijutsu is natural body movement the waza should be taught or taught of a half technique, the rest or finishing move id added by the student to allow them to "MOVE NATURALLY" to complete the technique, but unfortunately most Sensei’s are into to much power to teach it this way.....as far as this board is concerned most of the posters believe if you did not learn from a "kan" you are not right, but I did not and have seen a lot of wrong input on this board from a lot of people who trained in the "kans" the "kans" only came from the KOGA and IGA regions of Japan, guess what Japan is a whole bigger island than just those regions, oh or were the ninja just allowed in that area? hmmmm I doubt it, most "KANS" should understand that there is a lot of different ideas out there, they aren’t even ninjutsu they are NINPO which is a totally different belief system.....

Sinent, kurhana, and any one else out there that pay dues....you teacher is about the money if he/she was not they would not charge you, they live in America, and in America nothing is free, we all have to work, it's just in ninjutsu or sorry in your case ninpo, is there trade, and that is what they do for a living, quit make you instructor out to be a god, they are just a man/woman doing what they do best to earn a living, welcome to reality....respect for you instructor, I agree that no bujinkan should disrespect his or her teacher regardless of what hatsumi sensei says, that lowly white belt dose not train under hatsumi therefore they should ask there sensei, "bob sensei can I take a genkuban class?" if the instructor says no then quit, no insturctor should hinder your training, out of a war between masters, what you do outside the dojo is you choice not hatsumi, and has no bearing on respect to him, or your instructor, if you where living and training with hatsumi sensei then that would be different....

SSHH, I just had to add great post, I said something along those lines when I first came here, but soon realized because I am not "kans" trained my opinion is not welcome here, so I just ask questions mostly

OH AND BY THE WAY WHAT DOES "SD" mean I don’t know so I thought I would ask?

thanx for reading......Cloud

[Togakure]

Sonshu, perhaps Ninjutsu was not the art for you, if you did not find it effective then maybe you was just not build for it or your mind was not in tune with it. I believe everyone has a MA that is 'right' for them.

Im glad to see you are training in somthing that is making you happy, and progressing you in your training.

To adress you point about grappling/ground fighting in Ninjutsu, I am a little confused, as there is alot of grappling and ground fighting taught at the Dojo I train at.

We do not train in just 1 Ryu at a time, but our sensai flows from one to another in a fluid motion, fighting with a katana, or a staff or stick, then throwing some one to the ground and puting them into locks or holds, and then moving on to losing his weapon, or balance to show how to grapple on the ground and get out of locks and holds.

I do not know how good your teacher was, but perhaps he was not good enough to give you the training that you needed to keep you interested.

Anyhow good luck in you new art :)

[SilentNightfall]

Cloud, I'm sorry to inform you, but the X-kans are very much authentic Ninjutsu. Ninpo is a term given to the philosophy and high-levels of Ninjutsu; however, Hatsumi-sensei frequently uses the terms interchangeably. There is absolutely no reason that anyone can give us for the X-kans not being Ninjutsu. There are densho that show the lineages that trace back as far as Iga ryu, in the case of Togakure ryu, I believe. Eight out of the nine ryu in the Bujinkan all have roots in Ninjutsu and three to four of these are fully Ninjutsu ryu. Please do not come off as one of the believers who thinks that unless we make poisons, go through boot-camp like training or worse, and live off of a strict natural diet that we are not Ninjutsu practitioners if that was where you were going with this. We, in the X-kans, are all learning the fighting style that fits under the umbrella of Ninjutsu. The only reason that the Bujinkan ever changed it's name was because of "Ninjutsu" attracting a bad crowd. It is still very much Ninjutsu.

As far as your other comments, not all instructors are in it for money. My instructor charges a minimal fee a month and tells everyone to come train even if you can't pay. He sells uniforms, training weapons, etc. for the same price he buys them for. Definitely not a man who is making this his profession. If this were the Great Depression, we'd all still be learning from him without paying.

About the white belt comment, this is the exact attitude that stirs this whole mess time and time again. As a white belt, you have still joined a Bujinkan dojo. You are, therefore, a member of the whole organization and should do your best to follow Hatsumi-sensei's wishes if they are known to you. Also, if you ask your own instructor and disregard Hatsumi-sensei, the instructor should be following Sensei's wishes and not allowing his students to go to classes of other X-kans. Just as simple as that. I'm off for now. Have to get to Nihongo no kurasu a.k.a. Japanese class. Ja!

[takaharu]

6.5 years to shodan Genbukan Ninpo Taijutsu with a background of 1st dan Judo and 1st kyu modern ju jutsu.

Now after 17 years : (last 10 years as a personal student of Tanemura Sensei and many trips to the honbu dojo in Japan)

Shoden Menkyo Asayama Ichiden Ryu
Shodan Kirigami Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu

Preparing for Rokudan Taijutsu test in April this Year
Preparing for Shodan Kukishin Ryu Bojutsu (hanbo/Bo) in april this year

Preparing for Rokudan traditional Ju Jutsu in September this Year

Going back to Japan in november

[Brad Ellin]

Sinent, kurhana, and any one else out there that pay dues....you teacher is about the money if he/she was not they would not charge you, they live in America, and in America nothing is free, we all have to work, it's just in ninjutsu or sorry in your case ninpo, is there trade, and that is what they do for a living, quit make you instructor out to be a god, they are just a man/woman doing what they do best to earn a living, welcome to reality....respect for you instructor, I agree that no bujinkan should disrespect his or her teacher regardless of what hatsumi sensei says, that lowly white belt dose not train under hatsumi therefore they should ask there sensei, "bob sensei can I take a genkuban class?" if the instructor says no then quit, no insturctor should hinder your training, out of a war between masters, what you do outside the dojo is you choice not hatsumi, and has no bearing on respect to him, or your instructor, if you where living and training with hatsumi sensei then that would be different


Only dues my instructor charges are the Hanbu dues (yearly) and $50 a year Dojo dues. Have to pay for the elec and mats and t-shirts and occasional barbecue somehow. Otherwise, he teaches for the love of the art. I've seen many a student unable to pay, and he would pay out of his pocket. Matter of fact, both of my instructors pitched in to pay for my Shodan certificate. Nope, they're not in it for the money. Seen too much evidence against that.

And Ssh, great post! Hope to see you around more often.

[cloudgodd]

Silent:"As far as your other comments, not all instructors are in it for money. My instructor charges a minimal fee a month and tells everyone to come train even if you can't pay. He sells uniforms, training weapons, etc. for the same price he buys them for. Definitely not a man who is making this his profession. If this were the Great Depression, we'd all still be learning from him without paying."
Kurohana :"Only dues my instructor charges are the Hanbu dues (yearly) and $50 a year Dojo dues. Have to pay for the elec and mats and t-shirts and occasional barbecue somehow. Otherwise, he teaches for the love of the art. I've seen many a student unable to pay, and he would pay out of his pocket. Matter of fact, both of my instructors pitched in to pay for my Shodan certificate. Nope, they're not in it for the money. Seen too much evidence against that."

-- your instructors are far and few and are to be comended....I am sorry if I offended you, but not all ninpo is taught that way.

Silent:"Cloud, I'm sorry to inform you, but the X-kans are very much authentic Ninjutsu. Ninpo is a term given to the philosophy and high-levels of Ninjutsu; however, Hatsumi-sensei frequently uses the terms interchangeably. There is absolutely no reason that anyone can give us for the X-kans not being Ninjutsu. There are densho that show the lineages that trace back as far as Iga ryu, in the case of Togakure ryu, I believe. Eight out of the nine ryu in the Bujinkan all have roots in Ninjutsu and three to four of these are fully Ninjutsu ryu. Please do not come off as one of the believers who thinks that unless we make poisons, go through boot-camp like training or worse, and live off of a strict natural diet that we are not Ninjutsu practitioners if that was where you were going with this. We, in the X-kans, are all learning the fighting style that fits under the umbrella of Ninjutsu. The only reason that the Bujinkan ever changed it's name was because of "Ninjutsu" attracting a bad crowd. It is still very much Ninjutsu."

-- if you change the philosophy of ninjutsu it is no longer ninjutsu the reason it is now called ninpo.....

silent:"About the white belt comment, this is the exact attitude that stirs this whole mess time and time again. As a white belt, you have still joined a Bujinkan dojo. You are, therefore, a member of the whole organization and should do your best to follow Hatsumi-sensei's wishes if they are known to you. Also, if you ask your own instructor and disregard Hatsumi-sensei, the instructor should be following Sensei's wishes and not allowing his students to go to classes of other X-kans. Just as simple as that. I'm off for now. Have to get to Nihongo no kurasu a.k.a. Japanese class. Ja!"

-- I still beleave no instructor should hinder a students training because he is at war with the other instructor it wrong...

I think that is it....Cloud
=

[sshh]

Kurohana: "And Ssh, great post! Hope to see you around more often."

Ask, and you shall receive!

I'll try my best to be a little more brief. Writing too much is just another one of my bad habits, like my weak hira kamae, and my tendency to over-kill my uke.

Ok, a few more responses:

1) Sonshu: "Hatsumi should care about quality!"

He does, and those that go to train with him receive quality instruction. Those that leave training after begging for - and receiving - a judan grade and don't have quality skills . . . that's their problem! It's their life. I really doubt Hatsumi-soke is worried about some people that have rank but no skill. He knows who his good students are. If someone has a high rank, and you don't think they deserve it, go pick a fight with them!

2) Xplasma: "I am glad America's armed forces don't act that way or we would have thousands of generals."

Martial arts ranks are not the same as military ranks, and neither are comparable to college degrees. If I earned a blackbelt the same way as I got my associate's degree, I would be proud of the accomplishment, but wouldn't consider myself good at self-defense, just good at attendance and test-taking.

On the subject of America's armed forces, The USMC (Marines) now teaches its soldiers martial arts based in part on bujinkan training.

Here's a lengthy interview with Jack Hoban on the subject: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26437


3) Moromoro: "i guess you could kick hatsumis and tanemura ass couldnt you your in the same league now boy!!"

What does this have to do with starting your own style?

4) Zamfoo: "i just wanted to know an estimate of how much trainng it takes to reach shodan in ninjutsu. How did it turn into this fight?"

Freedom of speech is a powerful thing. Let people talk, and they'll say whatever they want.

At first, I considered the arguing back and forth about other styles being a form of "thread drift" / going off-topic, but then cross-training is an aspect of training in ninjutsu for some people. I'm all for it, if that's what you want.

5) xplasma: "I been on the board for about 2 months and I found great discussion in many of the styles board. However, ninjutsu isn't one of them..."

We're such a secretive bunch aren't we? Always spreading misinformation, and clouding the distinction between fantasy and reality. What would make us want to do that? Oh yeah, ninpo philosophy.

6) Zamfoo: "xplasma is right we should use this board as a way to help and learn. Once i start to train i plan to dicuss techiniques and other training aspects not fight about what is best or flawed."

That is very admirable. When do you plan on starting training, and if you don't mind telling, how old are you? What other styles have you looked into?
Sometimes, fighting (or better yet, a civilized debate) about what is "best or flawed" is a way to help and learn.

Sometimes, it is hard to glean any benefit from the occasional rants, and insults, and heated discussions, but even those seemingly worthless posts offer us an insight into human psychology. With that said, let's try to keep it clean, and do our best to be helpful. If you don't want to answer a question, don't.

If you'd rather bicker and argue and go off-topic . . . fine with me - I have a scroll wheel on my mouse and it's quite easy to skip past the stuff I don't like.

7) Sonshu (Taken out of context): "I wish there was more pride in belts that you earn." / "This is a real flaw with Taijitsu and really should be addressed."

So, from my understanding, taijutsu is flawed because there is more emphasis on practical self defense and personal development, and not enough pride (ego-stroking) in the accumulation of certificates and accolades?

Oh well, that's a flaw I can live with.

My aikido renshi is a third dan black belt, and has black belts in other styles. I think I could beat him in a fight. Does this mean that he doesn't deserve his rank? Is this an indication of the weakness of his style? Am I better than my rank indicates? The answer to all those questions is no. I'll leave it to anyone who is interested to reason out why that is so. Okay, my taijutsu training helps a lot, but there are other reasons.

8) Zamfoo: "Very nice book eerr i mean post"

Thank you. I hope you are enjoying the sequel - available in paperback edition soon!

"i truly will never grasp the whole xkan wars thingy."

I don't think I will either. It all seems like "my school is better than your school because I belong to my school and you don't, nya nya nyah" I personally think anyone should be allowed to train with whomever / whereever they want. I would love to train with some gembukan students sometime. I wouldn't want to appear disrespectful though, so I'll abstain for now. I think if you haven't earned your black belt yet, then you aren't even considered a real student yet, so what's wrong with "shopping around?"

9) Ninja4u2hire: "But...I have to admitt, it did feel good"

And that's really what it's all about, right? Having a particular rank is mostly, in my opinion, just a way to remind your instructor about where you're at in your training. Beyond that, it's all motivation - keep the kids feeling good about coming back to school. "You did good, here's a prize."

10) Tudoggz: "not just hes got a black belt he must be awesom!"

Exactly, it's along the same lines as, "Ooh, he's got a big, expensive car - he must have a big d***"

Well, there should be some stronger correlation in the matter of martial artists with high grades, but it's still a case of prejudice-in-action. Come on, fellow ninja, stealthily gather information like you're supposed to, and then you'll come to know the truth.

11) Cloudgodd:

Many good points; thank you. However, the thing about non-"x-kan" schools teaching ninpo/ninjutsu, is that according to the verifiable information available, only those arts taught by Hatsumi sensei, and his current or former students, can be proven to represent the only surviving schools of ninjutsu left in the world.

Yes, Japan is bigger than just Iga and Koka, but only a handful of authentic schools of ninjutsu have survived to this day in the form of continually transmitted knowledge. They just happened to be from Iga. And soke Hatsumi is the final authority on how they are to be taught. And before any gembukansha start in with "Tanemura sensei is an authority..." - he learned ninpo from Hatsumi sensei - point moot.

"...you teacher is about the money if he/she was not they would not charge you, they live in America, and in America nothing is free, we all have to work, it's just in ninjutsu or sorry in your case ninpo, is there trade..."

This is rarely this case. Kurohana and Silentnightfall gave good examples of the norm in bujinkan training. Most shidoshi have "day jobs" - ninjutsu is a hobby, they teach because they like it. Many train outdoors, and thus have low overhead (lit. no overhead) costs to worry about and can teach for practically nothing.

There is nothing wrong with someone here in America to want to make a profit from teaching MA, and many do. Most club dues goes toward training gear, dojo rental fees, mats, upkeep, etc. I'm happy to help my teacher get more money - you know what they do with that money? They buy plane tickets to Japan, train with Hatsumi sensei and then return to share the knowledge with us!

One more thing about paying for training - it is a measure of commitment. The dues are small, but it's something, it's symbolic of the student's willingness to make a sacrifice in order to receive something in return.

Again, I apologize for the length. But hey this one is only 3/4ths as long as my previous one! I have way too much free time! (and I know you’re all jealous of that :D )

Bufu ikkan to gambatte kudasai!

[Conquistador]

It is good to support your dojo with your cash.Airplane tickets, housing, etc. is not free.My sensei has spent lots of money and time over the decades.It is only fair to pay the man.A good Ninpo teacher is worth $50 a hour, so I think we are getting a good deal, he charges me about $2 a hour.As far as how fast it takes to rank in Ninpo.It takes me at least 6 months per Kyu.I could do it faster but I like to get a good score on the test.

[sshh]

Missed this latest post by Cloud as I was typing:

"your instructors are far and few and are to be comended...." but not all ninpo is taught that way."

MA instructors like this are far and few in general, but in the bujinkan - in my experience - there aren't a lot of teachers in it for the money. It's just too hard to make it profitable.

"...but not all ninpo is taught that way."

No, but in the bujinkan, it is the norm. Many fake ninja schools use the words ninja and ninpo as a way to attract students and increase profits. The bujinkan has done the opposite. We say budo taijutsu more often than ninjutsu; classes are usually small; there is very little (if any) advertising for bujinkan schools - many gain students through word-of-mouth-type advertising; even Hatsumi sensei himself has said that he doesn't want any new students / that the bujinkan is large enough, . . . but we keep coming in and the organization keeps growing. That is because the art is worthwhile and for the most part very inexpensive to learn.

"if you change the philosophy of ninjutsu it is no longer ninjutsu the reason it is now called ninpo....."

<sigh> This is just wrong. I recommend some nihongo no kurasu for you too.

If you need help with the above, I can do a little translating for you, if you ask nicely.

[SilentNightfall]

Not exactly sure what you mean by the philosophy changing, Cloud. To my knowledge, the philosophy always revolved around surviving and that is exactly what it taught in the X-kans. It's all about surviving any confrontation. The reason we don't train the way the Ninja of old did, is because we do not liove in a period of constant warfare. Nevertheless, we still train in Ninjutsu and learn the same combat art that was tested on the battlefield for hundreds of years.

As far as the white belt incident, Hatsumi-sensei's request is not all about a personal warfare. He simply wants his students to train with the flavor that he offers and feels is best for his students. He may not want his students developing a certain flavor to their taijutsu that may come about from training in the Genbukan. But you must remember, no matter what the reason is, as students of Hatsumi-sensei we are meant to abide by his wishes. If one does not like his wishes, then leave. It's that simple. No one should feel hindered in the Bujinkan when you have Hatsumi-sensei and all the Japanese shihan as sources of learning. If you feel hindered and do not wish to obey the doctrine, then either live with the fact that you are disrespecting Hatsumi-sensei or quit the organization. This is not an elitist comment nor meant to sound harsh. It is simply the two obvious choices one has in a matter such as this. Have a good one and take care. Ja!

[ninja4u2hire]

Beyond that, it's all motivation - keep the kids feeling good about coming back to school. "You did good, here's a prize."[/I]


Maybe that's how it feels in your dojo...not at mine. It's a right of passage where I train. I was tested, and I know, being that it took me 6 years to achieve, that if I hadn't been ready, my instructor would not have promoted me. Like I say in my sig...

[sshh]

Bumping this oldie but goodie.

It has a lot of common Q and A. Good to review once in a while, also for the newbies to see an example of what this forum has to offer (the good and the bad).

I feel compelled to condense some of that Q&A into a FAQ posting, but I think I'll call mine FQA - Friendly Questions & Answers.

[Twimyo Jirugi]

Just read through the whole thread. Pretty good, the lil heated debate/argument over styles with Sonshu was a bit tiresome, seen it all before. But after that, pure quality, with most of it.

sshh, all your posts are absolutely brilliant and a joy to read. Keep up the good postin', mate :D

[snake_plisskin]

Four years in the Bujinkan for me to reach shodan, training two to three times a week, usually for 3+ hours, with a long pause in early '96 when I was doing student teaching, and with the inevitable tidal effect of "real life" intervening.

Of course, I went completely unranked during that whole four years, and didn't even learn to tie my obi until I earned the shodan. Never put much faith in rank, anyway...just taijutsu, just taijutsu.

All the debates here were very, very lively, indeed.
Um, as far as mixing other arts into any of the -kans, as seems to be the norm on this board for calling them, my good friend spoke incredibly highly of Muay Thai and fu jow pai, and apparently those two flavors were added to much of the training to some of the Michigan dojo in the early to mid '90s. If it was good enough for them...

As far as "Hicho" being bad, I submit that, if you look at it from the perspective of just standing there on one leg and fighting, I suppose you could say, "Uh....riiiiiight. Okay, Daniel-san, you enter tournament now!"
But if you ever actually find yourself in a packed high school full of angry youth, and you find yourself CLIMBING STAIRS, um... exactly what do you look like? Let's see: One hand is up ahead of you grasping the railing, and your lead leg is the same leg as grasps the railing. If you're an educator like me (I now teach college), the other hand is actually in the middle of your chest, pulling at the strap of your briefcase/bookbag...thus, a variation of hicho no kamae.

Also, consider hicho used as you simply... get out of a car: left leg on the ground, right leg passing the door sill/rocker panel area (and thus bent and slightly "up" compared to the other leg) as your other arm is holding the door open, as you twist to exit the car. If you drive a low-slung sports car you get the idea of having to "rise out of" a car much more clearly. If you're short and have to CLIMB up into your huge Stampeder 4x4 Urban Assault Vehicle, you also might be able to grasp the concept of being in "hicho" as you put one leg up onto the door sill and the other is on the ground, and one hand is pulling yourself into your behemoth. Again... a variation or adaption of hicho.

And please, no comments of, "I'm 265 pounds of raging muscle, why'd I have to use that?" You might be, but maybe your daughter isn't, and when she's out on a date and that scumbag guy's trying to drag her into his 4x4 Pussy Wagon, she might find it of use to know how to move her body from that "stepping up" position to get away from the dirtbag.

The ku no kata bit with the heel stamp might not work from a distance (when's the last time I had a mirror in my pocket?) but it sure does work if someone's getting too close and you just want to grab their face, shove them back a little, and then offer them your foot's regards. Again, it's just adaption... and, it's all good!

If the essence of ninjutsu, er, budo taijutsu, is to adapt the taijutsu to your body type/feeling, then dropping certain techniques that don't feel right to you is fine, I suppose. Just try to see how someone else might find even the techniques that don't work for you (or me) might work for them. ;)

[Krazy5051]

I have refused every grade offered as an award to me. I despise them and don't believe in them or believe in having any personally.

Yours in martial arts,

Kid

[eddiehizo]

Hey I finally got my shodan after training in ninjitsu for 10 years. I like this teacher because he doesn't promote people very quickly. My sensi wanted good quality students coming from him. My sensi saw many shidoshi that are very bad and probably in a 5th dan that are pretty bad. SO getting a shodan from him is a deserving honour :rolleyes:

[Kikaku]

I have refused every grade offered as an award to me. I despise them and don't believe in them or believe in having any personally.

Yours in martial arts,

Kid

I thought you claimed that you would never have a Sensei/Shidoshi, so how can one have offered you a grade ? :rolleyes:

[Keikai]

I thought you claimed that you would never have a Sensei/Shidoshi, so how can one have offered you a grade ? :rolleyes:

AHH BUGGER,

I thought it was John again, cheers Neil.

See below post for absurd posting style. i got mixed up, you know what its like, its friday.........

[Neil-o-Mac]

Actually Greg, it was eddiehizo that performed the Lazarus-like thread resurrection for no apparent reason.

[SilentNightfall]

Congrats on the promotion, Eddie. Which teacher are you studying with, if you don't mind me asking?