A co-worker said to me that all Asian MA's come from Kung-fu, is this true?

[crovax612]

I argued against him saying that Muay Thai is belived to stretch back 2,0000 years and doesn't seem very related to kung-fu, it came mostly from Unarmed military combat. He said "yeah, maybe it's been around for that long, but Chinise culture/fighting has been around longer..."


I figured it was useless to argue with him until I had gotten some facts from people who are more knowledgable than him(who btw does study a fighting style-Kendo). So yeah, help a brotha out:D !

[Brad Ellin]

According to my mother in law, there is evidence to support the idea that India is the birthplace of most, not all, asian martial arts. I'll have her send me the references. India's culture/civilization has dates back 5000 years. Also, China, while the influence is large, still did not travel to every Asian country. You're right in saying that Muay Thai is not based on Kung Fu. It is it's own unique art.

[SoKKlab]

Hmm,
This old chestnut. About Chinese Boxing styles and History.
Okay China has been for a long long time, a huge cultural and military influence in the Far East (And Central Asia as well for that matter).

There are distinct written records amongst the Chinese people of armed and unarmed combat going back to the Chou dynasty (1122-255 BC), including many references in written works such as The 'Book of Rites' and the 'Spring and Autumn Annals' (722-481 BC).

There's no doubt that Chinese Martial Arts were heavily absorbed by Chinas near neighbours, including Okinawa, Korea, Japan, Vietnam etc and spread further afield by relentless trade and settlement to other places in Asia (IE: Kuntao to the Phillipines, Malaysia and Indonesia).

But as Kurohana mentions, Indian systems like Kalaripayarit, claim a lineage going back at least four thousand years and it is a possibility that a certain amount of Martial knowledge was transfered to China by Indian Buddhist monks (like the Damo/ Bodh. tale).

This does not mean that all existing Chinese Martial knowledge was transfered to China from India, just that some did and that may be the foundation of the Shaolin forms of Chinese boxing, but not any other Chinese Martial Arts.

Regarding Muay Thai. The majority of the Thai people came from Central China and began their move South along the Mekong and Salween River Valleys approx. 1050 AD. There was no country (as in official territory) called Siam (As well as Lanna etc) until the 1200s AD. But the idea of a Siamese nation may well of existed in Tribal Thai society long before the establishment of a country.

Whether Muay Thai existed as a seperate system before this period is for History to know. Certainly the entire Pahuyuth (Thai Multi-Faceted Fighting Art) system has a recorded history of at least Five Hundred years, which is a hell of alot longer than most Martial Arts today.

The root of the Muay (Boran) Thai system is from Pahuyuth via the Ling Lom system (Flying Monkey-the Other Thai Classical Unarmed Martial Art) and there is Potential evidence that this system is linked to the Chinese Monkey styles and other Chinese systems.

Professor Leung Ting of Ving Tsun (Wing Chun) in one of his books did a compare and contrast between Ving Tsun forms and those of Ling Lom and they are alot of similarities between the two. So who's to know?

Finally Many cultures have a had a strong and distinct Martial Culture and Arts throughout history. The wrestling cultures of the Celts at Halstatt (800 BC onwards), the Nubians at Beni Hasan (2000 BC) and the Greeks with their distinct forms of Boxing, Wrestling and Pankration at the Olympics (Approx 850 BC onwards, Pankration introduced in 648 BC).

There's as much evidence to suggest that a large amount of Martial knowledge in the Orient transfered from the Greeks via Afghanistan and India.

So in answer to yr question, maybe, perhaps, who knows, probably....(?)

[aikiMac]

The influence of Chinese martial arts on the rest of Asia cannot be ignored, but underneath that influence there is a circle of shared information. The Chinese taught their neigbors, and their neigbors taught them, and round and round it has gone for thousands of years. Everybody learned from everybody else.

Consider that combat goes back to the murder of Abel by his brother Cain, and it hasn't stopped since. No country today can claim ownership rights to the martial arts. For example, the Apaches in the American southwest knew about the rear leg sweep, yet they didn't learn it from a Japanese jujitsu master, or a Shaolin master. Similarly, the European knights knew about joint locks and pressure points, yet they didn't learn chin na from China, nor kempo from China, nor jujitsu from Japan. They figured out how to fight by fighting Europeans, yet what they came up with is remarkably similar to Asian martial arts.

Hmm. I wonder if that's because Asians and Europeans and everyone else all have EXACTLY THE SAME BODIES. Could that explain the similarities between all the many martial arts? Could it be that all the martial arts have overlap somewhere because we all have the same bodies?

It's just a thought, but I don't suppose it's a very good thought.

[SoKKlab]

Er,
Yeah, isn't that what I said???? :(

[Greg-VT]

Yeah, but your post may have been too long him o_O ;)

It was good SoKKlab, very interesting... I wish there was more. Where did you learn that?

I might need to start looking for a course or something....

By the way, Welcome to the forum Aikimac. :D

[SoKKlab]

Yeah probably was a bit long Ving,

Ho-hum. Learn it?-Mis-spent youth....

Any half decent book will give you some of this info.
Try 'Comprehensive Asian Fighting Arts' by Donn F. Draeger and Robert W. Smith (Kodansha Books).

As a starting point, it's a good read and covers alot of this sort of territory.

The Field of Hoplology-The Histories and Practices of Martial Cultures across Humanity and Time.

[Kwajman]

Most people say India, but it depends on who you ask....not an easily answered question....