Kenpo Seminar a Success!!

[KenpoDavid]

Our seminar with Professor Ron Chapel (http://maxpages.com/edparkerskenpo) was mind-blowing! My style is not American Kenpo, but we have already started the process of examining how we do our techniques to find where to build in these structural enhancements. I think we might have to work a bit harder at that than you guys who already do AK (will we continue to do C-steps?), since your techniques came from Mr. Parker and so did the SL4 material and so it should really sortof be close already, yes? But I think we will have a good time looking for them anyway.

On Day 2 Doc taught us the SL4 "Stance Set" their first and most basic form, which teaches the transitions between stances and changing directions and much more I am sure... He did authorize us to make available to participants a copy of the video we recorded on Day 2 so that you can have it as a reference for practicing that set. After 1.5 hours of that my legs were jelly.

On Day 1 Doc taught us some principles of body mechanics - upper and lower platforms, associated and disassociated movement, muscle reassignment, "shields up/shields down", indexing and muscle recruitment, "everything matters", startle reflex and the visual cortex. I had a guy who was well over 200 lbs ("candygram for Mongo!!") trying to pull down my upward block, or to push me out of my bow stance and he could not do it. I wasn't even exerting myself, relaxed, "unbendable arm". If it wasn't my own arm doing it I would not have believed it. But it was, so I do.

On friday before the seminar Doc visited our schools, and spent some time with our Founder Prof. Christopher Geary. For me this was one of the most interesting parts of the entire weekend, as Doc analyzed some of our techniques, offering suggestions and analyses on the techniques' origin and efficacy ("oh yeah that one is all Nick Cerio. He loved that kind of stuff... but it's junk, try it like this...") Watching the interaction between Professors Geary and Chapel was like an injection of martial arts information directly into the center of my brain... so much information to digest...

I can say without a doubt Doc Chapel is one of the nicest people I have ever met, a gentleman and a scholar, and an excellent teacher. Yes we paid him to come but the personal sacrifices he made & challenges he faced to get here and teach us are a testament to the size and quality of his character. He's a big guy but his heart is even bigger We all really enjoyed the stories about Mr Parker, Bruce Lee, Mitose and Chow, Samoan picnics, Hawaiian "second breakfast", and all the other Kenpo and Martial arts legends you've known over the last few decades. You've got to find a way to preserve that stuff for future generations, the material in your head and under your bed! You sould treat those films and memorabilia like criminal evidence, take care of it, preserve it, track it. Please?

And don't let me forget Ryan "Bob" Angell! Ryan, you showed every bit as much class as Mr. Chapel and it was a pleasure to have you out as well. Having you there really helped to multiply the amount of detailed instruction we were all able to get individually as you worked with us. And how did you eat a double cheesburger and large tots at midnight (on the way home from the chinese restaurant!!)... ??? You guys are nuts!

Thanks to everyone who came out (let me apologize in advance if I forget anyone, I am working from memory here):
Mr Walter Justice of Ta-Dow! Kenpo and his very sweet wife whose name I have no idea how to spell "E.C." is that close? I look forward to seeing you both again; Duke Whittaker, a pleasure to meet you finally face to face, sir Tad and Ray from Creston, Iowa; Dave Mondo from Des Moines Tiger And Dragon Kenpo; Thomas Howard and the crew from the Nebraska Hapkido Federation; Gary Boaz from Professional Martial Arts in Topeka, Ks; and all the students from our schools in Omaha. It would have been less of a success without each and every one of you!

I don't know what else to say except - Doc Chapel delivered! Everything you read about SL-4, as crazy as it might sound, as hard as it might be to hear... try it and you will be a believer. Drink the Kool-aid. It's yummy! You kenpo people who live down there near him and don't at least go see for yourself are making a big mistake. Don't be an ostrich. Don't let politics, history, and bad blood that has nothing to do with you and your Kenpo prevent you from being your best. What he has to say about what you've been taught might be hard to hear, it might challenge your ego... but approach it with an open mind and no ego and you might just change your (kenpo) life. What do you have to lose? If I am wrong, if SL-4 is not what it claims... what have you lost? A few hours and a few dollars. But if it's true - if SL-4 is all it claims to be... well then what you have lost is the blinders from your eyes. But I warn you, you cannot put the genie back on the bottle. You may not be able to go back where you were.

Mr Kevin Mills and Mr. Rose - It is clear that Prof. Chapel thinks the world of you guys and is proud to have you as his representatives. I was digging SL-4 before the seminar, now I am thoroughly hooked! Doc was absolutely correct when he told me "I GUARANTEE that what I will teach you will improve what you do no matter what style you practice."

If you do any stand-up striking art that is NOT sport oriented, you really should look up a SL-4 teacher and get a taste of it. They say the secrets of Kung Fu were lost in time? They are not.

-David

[KenpoDavid]

Doc Chapel was kind enough to provide a letter of recommendation describing the qualifications of our Profesor Geary. You can read it here:

http://www.christophergeary.com/winter10.htm

thanks

-D

[KGS BBS]

Isn't it nice for a senior to call another senior's technique(s) 'junk' at an open seminar especially when the senior being attacked is deceased. It would have never been said to Mr. Cerio's face and besides, one man's trash is another man's treasure. Perhaps, Professor Cerio felt the same same way about Doc's techniques but never said it publically out of respect. Much of Cerio's style was rooted in the Karazenpo Go Shinjtutsu of senior Grandmasters' Victor 'Sonny' Gascon (Kajukenbo) and S. George Pesare and modified through Cerio's studies under Professor William Kwai Sun Chow. Junk? I think not. Take it up individually with these men if you wish. Respect, yes, respect, something that is slowly but surley disintergrating in the arts of today. Too bad.

Personally, if I was in that position and I have been on several occasions over the years, I simply tell the student(s) yes, that technique is fine from Master John Smith but here is my personal perspective or interpretation of the movement. What we have here are simply acceptable levels of variations and that we all have individual stylistic differences. Take what you like and learn it. I would never put down another teacher in front of an audience with the mindset of 'my style is better than your style'. I have also been trained and certified to teach and make instructors in police defensive tactics as I know Doc has also been. In our training in Massachusetts it is stressed to NEVER EVER put down another D.T. instructor in front of other officers if your technique differs from his/hers and we were told to explain it as an 'acceptable level of variation'. At the F.B.I. academy in Virginia they tell you that when you go for a promotional interview never put down your competition of why he/she shouldn't get the job BUT instead give reasons why YOU should be chosen for the position. Great advice, I think.

In defense of Doc and let me make this perfectly clear, I have the utmost respect for him, I mean that, and have defended him on forums when others in EPAK have come down on him. I am very surprised that he said something like that but since I did not hear him say it directly, I will give him the benefit of the doubt of heresay. If Doc did 'slip', it happens, we're all human, and did say something like that, I'm sure he wouldn't want it repeated on a public forum, not the Doc I have come to know over the years through correspondence. Respectfully submitted, Professor Joe Shuras

*Edited for grammar correction

[kmguy8]

why is this not in the Kenpo section?
that is why it exists right?

[Bil Gee]

Then the rest of us would miss out on a good old fashioned lineage war.:D

[kenpoguy]

Sorry KenpoDavid. I was unable to get off work to attend that weekend, but i'm glad it went well. :)

[KenpoDavid]

Isn't it nice for a senior to call another senior's technique(s) 'junk' at an open seminar

I don't think anybody who was there (4 or 5 of us) thought twice about any insult to the memory of Nick Cerio :/ But, read more carefuly, please


On friday before the seminar Doc visited our schools, and spent some time with our Founder Prof. Christopher Geary...offering suggestions and analyses on the techniques' origin and efficacy ("oh yeah that one is all Nick Cerio. He loved that kind of stuff... but it's junk, try it like this...")

it wasn't during the seminar, it was the day before. And one thing I've learned about Doc Chapel, if he thinks something is not effective, he is not shy about saying so, no matter the source.

[KenpoDavid]

Sorry KenpoDavid. I was unable to get off work to attend that weekend, but i'm glad it went well. :)

You might get another chance this Spring.... stay tuned

[KGS BBS]

David, we have always had a cordial relationship on the many forums we have participated in so don't take this personally. Professor Cerio isn't around anymore to defend himself and it seems like when that happens, as in Mr. Parker's case, people take cheap shots. Doc is entitled to his opinion and you answered my question as I did say I gave him the benefit of the doubt of Doc saying that at a public seminar. What I also stated is if Doc did say that then I'm sure he wouldn't want to be quoted as such on an open forum. You are telling me this was a private get together with Doc, so therefore you should have thought twice about posting what someone says to you in private. Furthermoire, your instructor never studied under Professor Cerio so any technique he may have gotten most likely came from a book or a video, not exactly the best way to comprehend someone's system, a great supplement to those already there but hardly a replacement for someone who doesn't know Nick Cerio's Kenpo from Tae Kwon Do. Maybe Sub Level Four is great for someone who is merely teaching the surface arts (I have seen your instructor's techniques on his web page) so I can understand your enthusiasm but for those who have been around, well, it's still good stuff but so is what the Nick Cerio's Kenpo people do also. I think the problem is some teach commerical or theatrical type of Kempo/Kenpo to market it but don't lump us all together because as a law enforcement officer still very active going on 30 years, I use my art to get my butt home safe after every tour of duty. I'm not retired and I don't sit behind a desk, I am not a dojo warrior or arm chair sifu either. Respectfully, Professor Joe

[KGS BBS]

Sorry David but I just have to address this also.
You posted:

Doc Chapel was kind enough to provide a letter of recommendation describing the qualifications of our Profesor Geary. You can read it here:

http://www.christophergeary.com/winter10.htm

thanks

-D
__________________


Gimme a break! David, I've been in the arts since 1973 and if I wanted to be a name dropper and drop names of martial artists whom I've considered friends, whom I've trained with, visited and/or conducted seminars at my school, attended their seminars, socialized with, who've stayed at my home, I've stayed at some of their homes, your instructor would have an orgasm over it! My point being I have NEVER asked or even hinted for a letter of evaluation of skill or any other self serving b.s. from any of them PERIOD! Please don't tell me it was Doc's idea either, man, he was being paid to come over and do a seminar, talk about putting the guy on the spot! Geez!!!!!!!!!

[DEATHskull]

That website makes me laugh.

[KGS BBS]

Deathskull, please don't think ill of Professor Cerio and Gm. Gascon for I know they are mentioned on his website. There is also a reason for the negative remark about Prof. Cerio posted here. I have just been told by a kempo brother to go to this website: http://www.bullshido.net/, do search under the name "Geary" and look for "The man, the myth, the DEMI-GOD, lol and check it out. In the last several posts by 'Chinese Kenpo' has some solid info. He is not a member of the KGS BBS of Gm. Gascon or of Nick Cerio's Kenpo but this guy seems to have some good contacts in both systems. In the meantime, the Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu Black Belt Society (KGS BBS) has posted that they will be releasing a special message soon about this situation. I would like to state that I am affiliated with the KGS BBS, holding the office of state director of Massachusetts. I am also affiliated with Nick Cerio's Kenpo, Inc. I would also like to state that I have had several phone conversations with Mr. Geary prior to the problems with the KGS BBS. Our talks have always been very cordial although I may not agree with him on his current views and opinions, so I wasn't out to hang the guy but enough is enough. Respectfully, Professor Joe

[DEATHskull]

Hahah, the very first post of that thread explains precisely why I think that website is funny.

[KGS BBS]

David, you stated:

Don't be an ostrich. Don't let politics, history, and bad blood that has nothing to do with you and your Kenpo prevent you from being your best. What he has to say about what you've been taught might be hard to hear, it might challenge your ego... but approach it with an open mind and no ego and you might just change your (kenpo) life.

First, who's an ostrich? From what I understand to be fact, your instructor doesn't let his students go to any tournaments outside his own schools! Hello? A little controlling, ya think? Maybe, insecure? Lack of true self confidence, self doubt?
Also, you mention to approach it with an open mind and no ego? David, no student from your school should lecture anyone about EGO for his websites speak for themselves in anyone's language. Please, any talk of egos should be directed toward your 'founder' as you call him. You mention at the bottom of your post about the 'secrets' of Kung Fu. The only 'magic' or secrets in the martial arts is within YOU and how hard and dilligently you wish to work at self development. You also state, I'm paraphrasing, about politics and bad blood interfering with you progress, I totally agree with you there but it wasn't Gm. Gascon or Professor Cerio who drew first blood. I'm sure you and Chris would like to see this all go away, anyone would, well, I for one am always looking for the diplomatic and peaceful solution to these situations but Chris has done nothing to promote an atmosphere for peace. I know he believes in a saying that he has linked Gm. Gascon to and that's about 'negative publicity' in that 'any publicity is good publicity', well, that is not quite what Grandmaster mean't. There is a limit. There are martial arts instructors who have been arrested on drug trafficking charges, child molestation, rape, murder and one guy I knew from my area was on the 11 o'clock news one night as the serial mugger in Boston, attacking women by punching them out and taking their handbags! He got a lot of publicity, do you think it helped him in the arts? lol. Then the Marco Island, Florida publicity your instructors received all over the newspapers and the internet, do you really believe any publicity is good publicity? I don't. David, you appear to be a serious martial artsit who's heart is in the right place so follow your own path and let no one sway you (and that's including me) because that is the only way you will find the truth you are seeking. You told everyone to keep an open mind, David, you keep an open mind also. Take care & be safe, Professor Joe

[KGS BBS]

I saw this posted on Bullshido today. It was taken from our website of the Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu Black Belt Society. I felt it appropiate to post here. I think it says it all. I understand that Nick Cerio's Kenpo, Inc. has taken measures also to prevent similiar situations in the future. Thank you, Prof. Joe Shuras, Massachusetts president, KGS BBS


NOTICE TO ALL KGS BBS STATE REPRESENTATIVES

Effective immediately the KGS BBS will submit membership applications to you for approval. Great Grandmaster Gascon will have the final say. Any KGS BBS State Representative that can show good cause to deny membership to applicants will have the chance to do so before acceptance. Members from said states or other states must submit in writing your concerns about applicants to the KGS BBS State Reprentative.

The KGS BBS State Representative along with the Executive Board will review applicantations and approve or deny. All members under each State should be given notice to review applicant names. We will post an application pending page so all members can see and report to the State Rep. any information they have on applicants good or bad.

There have been some regrettable mistakes made by the executive board in the past; we are working at making the enrollment process a shared process between members and the Executive Board. We are only human, and always try to look at each individual in a positive light. However we feel keeping the State Rep's and members involved will help the organization maintain our standards.

[KenpoDavid]

The "ostrich" comment was meant for anyone who was afraid to go to a seminar where they might get told that what they are doing is not as effective as something else that they might learn to do. Mostly, as far as SL-4 is concerend, that means people that study EPAK. For example, there is a chain of EPAk school in Kansas City, 100s of students, and they didn't see fit to send even one person. Not even one inquiry about it from any student or instructor. That is who I meant. I have been told that out of the thousands of EPAK students within driving distance of the SL-4 shcool in LA, very very few bother to come and just meet SGM Parker's closest student and friend. That's an ostrich with it's head in the sand.

I don't think calling a technique "junk" or "ineffectve" or even "crap" is a "cheap shot". He didn't say "Cerio was a jerk" or even "The people who run NCK today are liars and frauds". Either one of those might be considered "cheap shots", even if they might be true or not. What he said was his opinion about the effectiveness of [B]that technique[B]. One thing Doc shared with us is his perception of martal art vs martial science. In "science", you test theories to determine what works and what does not. In art, eveything is OK, value judgements are rare. So, since Doc frames his material as "martial science" he evaluates techniques and ideas, and classifies them as effective or ineffective.

I don't think Prof. Geary ever claimed to have studied under Prof. Cerio, just that he received a black belt from him, the certificate says "American Kenpo" not NCK. Where did he learn that particular technique that Doc was referring to? I have no idea - honestly I couldn't even tell you what technique it was, now, 4 months later. It may not even have been a technique that was taught by Prof. Cerio. It was something that reminded Doc of the techniques from NCK, and it looked ineffective to him, and so he said so. Is you position here, Prof. Shuras, that everything that Nick Cerio did is now above critique and should not be judged??? Does a founder's death magically perfect a system?

You have much more experince than me so maybe from your vantage point you can lump together SL-4, American Kenpo, Shaolin Kempo, KGS, KJK etc and minimize the differences but to me the differences are still intersting and informative. Doc CHapel showed us some things, deeper levels of basics, that looked like magic to me. For example even the most minor alteration of a hand or foot position will magnify the strength/balance of a stance. When I can reist, without effrot, the force of a 300lb man; and then move my foot 15 degrees or less, and he pushes me over with ease... that's deep.

re: name dropping. Prof. Geary asked Doc Chapel to sign that, and Prof. Geary asked m to post the link here. It has whatever value any reader attaches to it and no more. Doc was very generous to sign it.

As a New England Liberal LOL I'm sure you are blind to media bias (just kidding with you), so let me say this: Have you ever seen a newspaper publish a story "Dog does not bite man" or "No tragedy to report today"? Of course not. So I will tell you what the Naples News will not: Most if not all of the charges were later dropped. The equipment that was destroyed in Marcos Island belonged to Prof. Geary himself. The man running the school for Prof. Geary and the investigating officer in the case appear to have gone into business teaching martial arts in that same location, but sadly for them they had to buy their own carpet and mirrors and training equipment because the stuff owned by Prof. Geary was not there for them to use. I am not defending what he did there, I am jsut adding some facts that were left out of the original news story. Is it you usual habit to base your understanding of something from exactly ONE newspaper report?

Prof. Geary often does things that don't make sense to me or that I would have done differently. My job is not to dfend him or explain his actions. I understand why you would re-open a thread that was idle for 4 months in order to smear a little mud on Prof. Geary - he has openly aired some dirty laundry about your organization, and turn about is fair play, right? So go ahead get your hands dirty too, it's your right to do so.

hey, Deathskull, please point me to some better MA school websites, maybe we can learn some things to improve www.kempokarate.com. Do me a favor and when you find one please tell me what is better about it, OK?

-D

[KGS BBS]

Hi David, No, I don't put Professor Cerio or Mr. Parker up on a pedestal and say everything they did is above reproach and criticism. Everyone is subject to 'mistakes' for it is the human condition. Prof. Cerio made a mistake with Chris Geary. There is a proper and respectful way to 'sell' someone on what you are teaching without putting someone else down as I explained to you (in a previous post) as I was taught in my police defensive tactics training and my example with the F.B.I. academy. There is a right way and wrong way to get your point across. Why offend anyone if you don't have to and I disagree with you about the cheap shot. All our seniors both past and present were very proud of their systems and what they taught so when you call someone's material 'junk', well, that's a slap in the face in anyone's book. If you don't believe me just go to some senior's seminar, step up on the mat and say to him: Sorry, sir, but I think your technique is junk but don't take offense it's just constructive criticism, lol, and have the paramedics on stand by. Since you also mentioned Parker's Kenpo then next time Mr. Larry Tatum has a seminar have your founder go up to his face and tell him he's teaching 'junk'. Better still, Doc would never go to someone's seminar and say that and you know it. My point is, if you're going to say it at all in that tone be sure you have the same bravado to say it to a man's face as you would behind his back. You see, David, I'm not a back stabber, I'm a chest stabber, you'll see me coming! In this case, guys like Nick Cerio and Ed Parker are incapable of rebutting such statements. They're dead. It's up to their students to defend them now. No one and I mean no one ever went up to their faces and said these things when they were alive and that's a fact! Gm. Sonny Gascon is a prime example, for a few and just a few have some things to say about Gm. Gascon but I'm willing to bet not one of them and this includes your 'founder' who appears to have a mouthful lately will ever say it to his face. As a matter of fact, I know they won't. The KGS BBS will be on tour for visits and seminars for 2006, the 'founder' is invited to attend any of them if he wishes.

I know what you mean't by the 'ostrich' comment but it just reminded me how your instructor has his head in the sand when it comes to letting his students compete outside his schools! I also understand what you're saying about Doc and Sub Level Four for Doc and I have had many correspondence in the past which brings this to mind. Yes, Doc, told me a lot of things, many things, and do you know what? He also asked me to keep it in confidence and I have and will. Again, I think what he said in your presence the night before at a private get together was not mean't to be published in an open forum, know what I mean? I think it's pretty pathetic that your instructor WROTE THE ACTUAL LETTER ATTESTING TO HIS ABIITIES HIMSELF AND ASKED DOC TO SIGN IT!!! I won't get into it here, but I know for a fact your instructor has done that before on his website, writing quotes for others and asking for their approval. Sometimes you put good people on the spot and they don't want to offend you so they reluctently go along with it, others are more forthcoming. Lastly David, don't forget I've been in law enforcement since 1977 and have built many, many contacts over the years, that was not a spin, a slant or mis-reporting by the newspapers on what transpired on Marco Island, Florida, it was the truth and there was more to it than that and it wasn't favorable either. Stop by a state or federal prison, David, and ask around, I think you'll find there's not a guilty man there. So, I think it's best to drop that one.

Dave, you stated:

For example even the most minor alteration of a hand or foot position will magnify the strength/balance of a stance. When I can reist, without effrot, the force of a 300lb man; and then move my foot 15 degrees or less, and he pushes me over with ease... that's deep.

David, the only thing I'll say is this. If you're ever in my area I'll arrange for you to go on some ride-alongs during busy times and I will take you to a local gin mill where they have had so many problems that they hired a highly respected U.F.C fighter to work the door now backed up by two uniformed police officers. By the way, two Friday nights ago a 21 year old was stabbed to death outside his home, overflow from the inner- city gangs, two were arrested. This is the reality where one sees what works and doesn't work, not the dojo and you have no second chance. You can't tell your opponent, 'could you please go back and punch in again, I really wasn't ready that time', lol. David, I thank you and respect you for answering my posts and I do listen to your points, some I agree with and some I don't just like you. We should both always keep an open mind. I promise I will too. Take care, my brother, Prof. Joe

[DEATHskull]

hey, Deathskull, please point me to some better MA school websites, maybe we can learn some things to improve www.kempokarate.com. Do me a favor and when you find one please tell me what is better about it, OK?-D I wasn't referring to www.kempokarate.com with that post, everything on that site is pretty standard for a martial arts school's website. I was talking about http://www.christophergeary.com/

[KGS BBS]

Prof. Shuras,
I was forwarded this guestbook entry on Geary's web site.
Dear Professor Geary,

I too was a member of the KGSBBS and became very disappointed. Not only were
they self serving, Mr Rash was very disrespectful and lacked any
knowledge at all. I am sure that SIJO Gascon doesn't know what Rash is
doing or he wouldn't allow it. When you leave the oganization, then he
threatens you. Although, I doubt he would carry out his threats. My advice
is stay away.

BP

As you know I have never threatened anyone.
In the past that when threats were directed at me they were answered. I never
initiated them.
I do find it quite humorous that this so called ex member BP is using a fake
name.
I must have terrified BP he is using a fake name.
Must be in the witness protection program?
" I doubt that he would follow through" REALLY?
Why the fake name? (Remember this happened once before?)
Geary follows through! Ask the GIRL in Florida.
Prof. Shuras feel free to share this E mail. I am getting ready to leave for
Hawaii this afternoon. I'll call you from GM Gascon's house. Will be back home
Monday the 23rd
Today I will post some information about Geary on our site.
Originally I know I told you we would not respond to Geary.
In the interest of fairness, I need to address his crap.
Then his anonymous friend needs to be dealt with.
Talk to you Friday afternoon
Prof. Rash

[KenpoDavid]

Hi David, No, I don't put Professor Cerio or Mr. Parker up on a pedestal and say everything they did is above reproach and criticism. Everyone is subject to 'mistakes' for it is the human condition. Prof. Cerio made a mistake with Chris Geary. There is a proper and respectful way to 'sell' someone on what you are teaching without putting someone else down as I explained to you (in a previous post) as I was taught in my police defensive tactics training and my example with the F.B.I. academy. There is a right way and wrong way to get your point across. Why offend anyone if you don't have to and I disagree with you about the cheap shot. All our seniors both past and present were very proud of their systems and what they taught so when you call someone's material 'junk', well, that's a slap in the face in anyone's book. If you don't believe me just go to some senior's seminar, step up on the mat and say to him: Sorry, sir, but I think your technique is junk but don't take offense it's just constructive criticism, lol, and have the paramedics on stand by{these kind of self-control and anger issues are far too common in the martial arts community don't you think}. Since you also mentioned Parker's Kenpo then next time Mr. Larry Tatum has a seminar have your founder go up to his face and tell him he's teaching 'junk'. Better still, Doc would never go to someone's seminar and say that and you know it {Prof. Geary never called it junk, it was Doc's seminar, and he was criticizing Prof. Geary's material. how rude of him OMG!! LOL}. My point is, if you're going to say it at all in that tone be sure you have the same bravado to say it to a man's face as you would behind his back. You see, David, I'm not a back stabber, I'm a chest stabber, you'll see me coming! In this case, guys like Nick Cerio and Ed Parker are incapable of rebutting such statements. They're dead. It's up to their students to defend them now. No one and I mean no one ever went up to their faces and said these things when they were alive and that's a fact! {I've heard lots of hilarious stories of guys coming in to Ed Parker's school and telling him just that.} Gm. Sonny Gascon is a prime example, for a few and just a few have some things to say about Gm. Gascon but I'm willing to bet not one of them and this includes your 'founder' who appears to have a mouthful lately will ever say it to his face{difficult to arrange I bet... you know, Prof. Geary tried to get a few minutes of Sijo's time when they were in Hawaii, to treat him to lunch and pay respects, but Sijo Gascon was too busy to acknowldge that he had travelled all the way from Nebraska to his neighborhood}. As a matter of fact, I know they won't. The KGS BBS will be on tour for visits and seminars for 2006, the 'founder' is invited to attend any of them if he wishes.

Did you see the technique that Doc was commenting on? Do you know if it was a technique that was developed and taught by Nick Cerio? Can you say for sure that those 3 seconds of movement by Prof. Geary were not junk??? Then why are you are blowing this one comment about one technique so far out of context that it is almost funny?? And, none of this was said BY Prof. Geary. Prof. Geary was demonstating some techniques that represent our style, and Doc Chapel told him what he thought about it. Maybe to you that would have been a slap in the face for Doc Chapel to tell you what you are doing is not as good as it could be, but Prof. Geary's response (not hypothetical, his actual response to the comment you are obsessing about) was to discuss ways to make it better.

I know what you mean't by the 'ostrich' comment but it just reminded me how your instructor has his head in the sand when it comes to letting his students compete outside his schools

Some of us have taken part in some tournaments, and found them to be a pointless waste of time. I can play tag with my little nephews any time I like. We find tournament style sparring to be uselss in helping us develop in how we want to fight. I don't think this is a unique position...

[KenpoDavid]

Prof. Shuras,
I was forwarded this guestbook entry on Geary's web site.
Dear Professor Geary,

I too was a member of the KGSBBS and became very disappointed. Not only were
they self serving, Mr Rash was very disrespectful and lacked any
knowledge at all. I am sure that SIJO Gascon doesn't know what Rash is
doing or he wouldn't allow it. When you leave the oganization, then he
threatens you. Although, I doubt he would carry out his threats. My advice
is stay away.

BP

As you know I have never threatened anyone.
In the past that when threats were directed at me they were answered. I never
initiated them.
I do find it quite humorous that this so called ex member BP is using a fake
name.
I must have terrified BP he is using a fake name.
Must be in the witness protection program?
" I doubt that he would follow through" REALLY?
Why the fake name? (Remember this happened once before?)
Geary follows through! Ask the GIRL in Florida.
Prof. Shuras feel free to share this E mail. I am getting ready to leave for
Hawaii this afternoon. I'll call you from GM Gascon's house. Will be back home
Monday the 23rd
Today I will post some information about Geary on our site.
Originally I know I told you we would not respond to Geary.
In the interest of fairness, I need to address his crap.
Then his anonymous friend needs to be dealt with.
Talk to you Friday afternoon
Prof. Rash

So Prof. Geary is not the first to feel as he does about the KGS, that is re-assuring.

[KGS BBS]

David stated: {these kind of self-control and anger issues are far too common in the martial arts community don't you think}.

I say: David, the 'paramedic' thing was mean't as a joke, it's joke, David, nothing more, lol.

David stated: {Prof. Geary never called it junk, it was Doc's seminar, and he was criticizing Prof. Geary's material. how rude of him OMG!! LOL}.

I say: No kidd'n, David, I said that in my first post and let's not spin it. You know what you posted and what you quoted Doc as saying about Nick Cerio. That was the brunt of my post. Go back and read it. It was about RESPECT AND SENIORS.

David stated: {I've heard lots of hilarious stories of guys coming in to Ed Parker's school and telling him just that.}

I say: Yes, David, "STORIES", as you wrote. Anyone can tell a good 'story' just ask your 'Founder'. Imagine if the general public and the majority of martial artists believed him, lol. I'm not an authority on Ed Parker and I didn't study under him so I suggest you go to Kenponet and bash him there where many of his people are and when you do, don't forget to tell them where you study. They have a right to know where the b.s. is coming from.

David stated: {difficult to arrange I bet... you know, Prof. Geary tried to get a few minutes of Sijo's time when they were in Hawaii, to treat him to lunch and pay respects, but Sijo Gascon was too busy to acknowldge that he had travelled all the way from Nebraska to his neighborhood}.

I say: I was expecting you to say this. I was going to answer it in my last post but I decided to wait for you to bring it up. Okay, remember my comment on how pathetic it was to put Doc on the spot? You know, when 'the founder' actually typed out a letter attesting to his extraordinary martial arts ability and asking him to sign it? Remember I said it was awful to put Doc in that position, after all, your instructor was paying him and hosting his seminar? I said some people would sign it reluctently because they don't want to embarrass their host and others are more straight forward? Well, please remember, your instructor was bugging Sijo Gascon for a 7th dan, even asking him if he would promote him and send it in the mail. Bugging to the point of informing Sijo he was going to Hawaii and would get in touch with Sijo so he could promote him. At the time, Geary was being respectful to Sijo Gascon BECAUSE HE WANTED SOMETHING FROM HIM. In other words he was 'kiss'n his butt'. Sijo Gascon had his number by then and knew Geary was simply a 'paper tiger', in one forum someone referred to Geary as a 'paper chaser' but other than that had nothing personal against him. Sijo simply blew him off, it's done everyday. Did a girl ever blow you off? No, David, I didn't mean that way, LOL. Most people simply get the hint and go away as Geary did and resigned from the KGS BBS. Let Geary look him up now because NOW, IT'S PERSONAL! He won't have to fly 12 hours to Hawaii, Gm. Gascon will be in the U.S. this year and very easy to find since his schedule will be posted on the KGS BBS website. Do I wish it comes to that, of course not, but don't ever give the inclination to anyone Gm. Gascon is hiding!

David stated to me: Then why are you are blowing this one comment about one technique so far out of context that it is almost funny??

I say" Yes, David, it is funny because your 'founder is being laughed at by true martial arts professionals everywhere and no, don't say their jealous, lol. Some even smile in his face and pat him on the back but after the check clears they laugh all the way to the bank and you know exactly what I'm referring to. David, your the one who blew my comment out of proportion because I only brought it up in my initial post BUT you keep throwing it back at me keeping it alive. By the way, you asked if I knew what technique it was? I really don't give a rat's ass what technique it was. I said it once, I mean't what I said and that's it. You seem to be very sensitve over it. Yes, I was too but I've been trying to move on from it but you won't let me. Let it go.

David stated: Some of us have taken part in some tournaments, and found them to be a pointless waste of time. I can play tag with my little nephews any time I like. We find tournament style sparring to be uselss in helping us develop in how we want to fight. I don't think this is a unique position...

I say: Yes, David, I agree with you. Self defense is what the martial arts are all about-the 'war arts'. 'Some' tournaments can suck but let students find this out on their own. It's a good learning experience. However, David, no instructor should be against their students competing just as no instructor should force students to compete. Ask your 'founder' if he ever heard of 'free will'?

Now David for your second post.


David stated: So Prof. Geary is not the first to feel as he does about the KGS, that is re-assuring.

I say: David, remember, I have no lump on the back of my head where I fell off the turnip truck coming over. I have many, many investigations under my belt in 30 years in law enforcement. The name displayed on that guestbook is very similiar to a name displayed on another forum of whom Prof. Rash has identified. He had two suspects at first but something happened which brought it to definitely one individual. I've probably said too much already but who gives a ....right now! The method of writing and the pyschology behind it is identical to someone Prof. Rash uncovered before, proved it, the individual admitted it and apologies were made. I know what's going on, David, I'm not saying you do or have any part of it but my mother didn't raise any fools, I KNOW AND I DON'T LIKE IT ONE BIT.

David, in all seriousness. This is not my style, to get into public mudslinging and having to comeback at you at every corner. I don't enjoy it at all. Believe it or not, I don't like knocking Chris either but he is giving us no choice. I know Chris is your instructor and you feel obligated to defend him, I understand that, I'm the same way but this has gone far enough. Trust me David, sometimes to catch a rat, you have to jump in the gutter. I'm approaching that right now and I really don't want to sink to that level, it's not me. HOWEVER, if my back's to the wall and I have to, then I will defend those whom I'm loyal to no matter how muddy it gets. If you want to pm me again, that's fine and if you want a land line, that's fine too, I'll give you my number. Respectfully, Prof Joe

[KGS BBS]

The Executive Board of the Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu Black Belt Society (KGS BBS) has officially responded in detail to specific allegations directed at them by one, Christopher Geary, on their website at: http://www.karazenpogoshinjutsu.com/exec-message.html, and have taken the neccessary appropriate action. If you have any more questions please go through their website. Thank you.

[KenpoDavid]

I know Chris is your instructor

Actually, he is NOT my instructor. I am studying under Shawn Steiner, at his school. I've probaly had less than 10 lessons with Prof. Geary in the 3.5 years I've been with the schools.

And who was bashing Ed Parker??? I only mentioend him because you said "nobody ever told these guys to their faces..." when in fact there are many well-known stories of exactly that happening. They pretty much all end with Parker laughing the poor sap out of his school...

as for the post on KGS site... it's an interesting interpretation for sure, but maybe a bit shrill. You were careful to attribute all of Prof. Geary's stuff, but not so careful when speaking for Prof. Cerio. More than once he is quoted without attribution. So you might add "according to John James, Prof. Cerio said..." or whatever your source was for Cerio's words. Hopefully a more reliable source than James...

[KGS BBS]

David stated: {I've heard lots of hilarious stories of guys coming in to Ed Parker's school and telling him just that.}

I say; David, that is a 'dig' in my book toward Mr. Parker because now you say this:'They pretty much all end with Parker laughing the poor sap out of his school...' If you posted that with your original statement in the first place that would be different instead of doing it now as an afterthought..... for damage control so the Parker people don't jump on it.

David stated: as for the post on KGS site... it's an interesting interpretation for sure, but maybe a bit shrill. You were careful to attribute all of Prof. Geary's stuff, but not so careful when speaking for Prof. Cerio. More than once he is quoted without attribution. So you might add "according to John James, Prof. Cerio said..." or whatever your source was for Cerio's words. Hopefully a more reliable source than James..

I say: David, I can speak in an official capacity for the KGS BBS as their Massachusetts state president. If Nick Cerio's Kenpo, Inc. wishes to make an official statement they are welcome but it's up to them, not me. As far as quoting sources, let me say this and please listen closely. My source for the record came from three people and you are correct about one. He has already publically stated his opninion on Chris in the past. As in police work and in the media some sources ask not to be named and for good reason. They may not want the repercussions. Hello? like paint thinner poured all over their car or worse! Like it didn't happen before, right? When that young girl spoke out, gave a statement and took out a restraining order, right? We all know what happened to her car, don't we? David, I don't give a rat's ass whether you or anyone else believes Nick Cerio said that or not, I believe it, I know other reputable people believe it. You don't want to believe it, fine, we don't care.

David stated:
Actually, he is NOT my instructor. I am studying under Shawn Steiner, at his school. I've probaly had less than 10 lessons with Prof. Geary in the 3.5 years I've been with the schools.

I say: Six of one, half dozen of another. So you say Mr. Geary, your 'Founder' whom you took 10 lessons from is not your instructor, fine, a Mr. Stiener is. Name sounds familiar. Oh ya, that's the guy who was charged along with Chris in the Marco Island papers on the felony warrants. That's different then, lol.


David, I asked you before, let is go here because it's not going anywhere. If you have any questions or you want to discuss it you can pm me or call me.

Sincerely, Joe

[Joe V.]

I went on to Geary's site and read his entire auto biography. It was very difficult to NOT TO THROW MY MONITOR THROUGH THE WALL when I was done.
I believe every school owner has the right to teach whatever they choose... Geary can name it whatever he wants!
Call it "Geary's Supreme Ultimate Self Defense System of the god's" Passed down to him in a dream from the hands of Boddiharma himself!

I could have a better chance of believing that than anything your "Founder" has posted on his website.
You know what would happen in the "Good Ole Days"? Your Founder would be visited by some people who had actually EARNED the title of Professor and a short dance would ensue. Your founder would no longer call himself "professor" and probably spend several weeks healing.

BUT, the True Martial Artist don't do that anymore. Your founder will be ignored and his students will continue to be led by an unworthy.

If your group only went to more open tournaments...

David, please, I implore you! Go to some seminars and tournaments "OUTSIDE OF YOUR GROUP", if you do not want to participate you don't have to. Just go and observe. I guarantee you will be impressed with what you see.
Your founder is a fake, sorry to be so blunt but that is the truth.
Anyone can go out and get paper certificates to justify any rank. You can't tell me nor can I believe he is sooooo good that in ten years, he has mastered 4 different Martial Arts.

Also, we Martial Artists honor and revere the Great Grand Masters and Grand Masters we have learned from. Have you noticed that your founder only feels that way about whomever is giving him rank at the time???? As soon as they promote him AND find out he is a fake and refuse to deal with him anymore. Instantly, they were not worth his loyalty. That fact above all others, should send you running for the hills!

Don't defend your founder, if you like him fine. The True Martial Artists know he is a fool and has no loyalty or respect for anyone but himself....

I wish you nothing but the best in your study of the Martial Arts. If you stick with it long enough, you will see what I said is true.

[KenpoDavid]

David stated: {I've heard lots of hilarious stories of guys coming in to Ed Parker's school and telling him just that.}

I say; David, that is a 'dig' in my book toward Mr. Parker because now you say this:'They pretty much all end with Parker laughing the poor sap out of his school...' If you posted that with your original statement in the first place that would be different instead of doing it now as an afterthought..... for damage control so the Parker people don't jump on it.

David stated: as for the post on KGS site... it's an interesting interpretation for sure, but maybe a bit shrill. You were careful to attribute all of Prof. Geary's stuff, but not so careful when speaking for Prof. Cerio. More than once he is quoted without attribution. So you might add "according to John James, Prof. Cerio said..." or whatever your source was for Cerio's words. Hopefully a more reliable source than James..

I say: David, I can speak in an official capacity for the KGS BBS as their Massachusetts state president. If Nick Cerio's Kenpo, Inc. wishes to make an official statement they are welcome but it's up to them, not me. As far as quoting sources, let me say this and please listen closely. My source for the record came from three people and you are correct about one. He has already publically stated his opninion on Chris in the past. As in police work and in the media some sources ask not to be named and for good reason. They may not want the repercussions. Hello? like paint thinner poured all over their car or worse! Like it didn't happen before, right? When that young girl spoke out, gave a statement and took out a restraining order, right? We all know what happened to her car, don't we? David, I don't give a rat's ass whether you or anyone else believes Nick Cerio said that or not, I believe it, I know other reputable people believe it. You don't want to believe it, fine, we don't care.

David stated:
Actually, he is NOT my instructor. I am studying under Shawn Steiner, at his school. I've probaly had less than 10 lessons with Prof. Geary in the 3.5 years I've been with the schools.

I say: Six of one, half dozen of another. So you say Mr. Geary, your 'Founder' whom you took 10 lessons from is not your instructor, fine, a Mr. Stiener is. Name sounds familiar. Oh ya, that's the guy who was charged along with Chris in the Marco Island papers on the felony warrants. That's different then, lol.


David, I asked you before, let is go here because it's not going anywhere. If you have any questions or you want to discuss it you can pm me or call me.

Sincerely, Joe

What is there to discuss? How you twisted my words? Or how much you all hate Prof. Geary? not interested in either really... And are the Cerio people _really_ afraid of repercussions from Prof. Geary LOL very powerful rhetoric you've got there but really nonsense.

[KGS BBS]

Okay, David, looks like you gone through a personality change, with me anyway. Maybe you're being coerced to answer like that but you sure don't sound like the David in the pm's or the David I corresponded with before on the forums. So here goes.

Ya, David, it doesn't matter how tough someone is or what their martial arts ability may be BUT your heroes have shown cowardice in the way they handle situations. Anyone can do a 'ninja' attack, get it? Maybe these tough guys of Cerio's as you put it, have daughters, you ever stop to think about that? Maybe a wife or girlfriend, and according to what we know as FACT , your heroes love to harrass and intimidate and threaten women, don't they? Do they beat on them too, David? Just asking but how would you know, you're still drinking the Kool Aid. After all, it's public record, isn't it? A full confession, wasn't it? or did the police beat your heroes with a rubber hose? lol. Did you see the post by a Joe V., believe me, I had nothing to do with that, I saw it probably when you saw it but my point is, that's what the martial arts world thinks of your heroes! With the exceptions of those laughing all the way to the bank when Chris writes them those big fat checks! I don't hate people, I hate the things people do. Well, there's some people that have done things that shock the conscience that I would say I hate but Chris isn't one of them by any means. He just has to grow up a little (an understatement) if he wishes to truly succeed in the arts because as JoeV. says and I'll elaborate on it a little more; Time either makes you or breaks you or in JoeV's words exposes you. Here end of the lesson. David, if you're going to have that attitude toward me, fine, your perrogative but I appreciate it if you don't correspond with me again in any way, shape or form. I think you're going to have your hands full anyway with JoeV., lol. You told me you were an intelligent guy and you usually make sure you don't get involved with 'Professor' Geary's dirty laundry! Why the change? I do think you're being coerced, grow some balls and stand up to him, will you! You'll look back someday and see..............

[KGS BBS]

One of David's pm's: 'Doc told me lots of things about lots of guys in private that I can't repeat. Including his real opinion of Prof. Geary and Nick Cerio and Larry Tatum etc etc.'

Does it look like I twisted things now! David, I wouldn't do this but you drew first blood by calling me a liar so go head and post what I wrote if you want. I'll make it easier, I stated I didn't agree with everything Nick Cerio did, I didn't, especially the promotion to Geary to shodan in which he later recinded. I stated I have my own feeling toward Larry Tatum, I do, nothing personal, but things like the Black Belt Video program and so forth. I don't agree with that no matter who does it! I've already expressed myself on that a while ago on Kenponet and MartialTalk but wait, David, I'll be back with another twist as you put it, direct from your keyboard!

[KGS BBS]

Hey David, did I twist this one from my hotmail:

From : David Carnley <david.carnley@gmail.com>
Sent : Thursday, January 19, 2006 3:58 PM
To : jshuras@hotmail.com
Subject : hey there

| | | Inbox


Being a little bit smart I almost always stay out of Prof. Geary's dirty laundry fights, I'm not sure how you sucked me into this one LOL!!!!

Take Care

david

[KGS BBS]

Private Message: other stuff
18-Jan-2006, 07:44 PM
KenpoDavid
Working Title Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Bellevue, Nebraska, USA
Posts: 1,629

other stuff

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Doc told me lots of things about lots of guys in private that I can't repeat. Including his real opinion of Prof. Geary and Nick Cerio and Larry Tatum etc etc.

-D
__________________
How long have you been training? Do you even know your THAC0?


I'm a good guy David but when someone crosses the line with me...................

[KGS BBS]

There you go David, don't see Geary's name under the G's , do we? Be right back have to check something else!













Welcome to the Nick Cerio's Kenpo family tree of Black Belts. This list includes all known people who received their black belts directly from Professor Cerio. This means that Professor Cerio was there primary instructor. If you had Professor Cerio present at your test but you were a student of another NCK instructor then your name does not appear on this list. It should be included on your Instructor's Family Tree. All students who obtained their Black Belt from a person listed on this page should be listed on that Instructors Family Tree in their school or on their website.

Family Tree Key


(*) = Black Belts certified and authorized to teach Nick Cerio's Kenpo
(as listed by Professor Cerio in the Master's Text - ©1997)
(**) = Original Executive Board Members appointed by Professor Nick Cerio in 1996
(@) = Black Belts ranked in American Kenpo
(not to be confused with Ed Parker's American Kenpo (EPAK)
Click on the letter below for the desired names.

A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z



G

Gaccione, Louis (@)
Gaul, Ed
Gelosmino, Joe
Gerongio, Steve (@)
Gianferante, Allan
Gilman, Debra L. (@)
Gilman, Michael (@)
Gladstone, Jeffery S.
Glendenning, John
Gois, Paul
Golden, Mark
Gomes, Jack
Gomes, Dennis (*)
Gordill, Phil (@)
Gordill, Robert (@)
Greenless, Jay
Gregory, Bill
Gremour, Ed
Grenier, Robald
Griffin, John E.

[KGS BBS]

Here we go David, right off the KGS BBS website. Unfortunately, Professor Nick Cerio is dead. God bless him, but Great Grandmaster Victor 'Sonny' Gascon is very much alive and kicking, God bless him, so if you have a problem with what is written below please take it to his face! I'll be sure to send you our 2006 schedule on the mainland as soon as its put together.

Late 2005
Geary resigns and now condemns the KGS BBS.
Geary, however tried unsuccessfully to get us to return dozens of times over the course of the year. After I read Geary's website, I decided to read his autobiography closely.
We, like some, did not find him to be an Adonis of a man. Some guy actually calls him an Adonis of a man. Apparently he survived Jonestown and is looking for another leader.
We have all the original content on file. Many of you got copies before this posting or read his site already. After researching Geary and using his autobiography as a resource we find his original rank was obtained by fraudulent means.
GM Victor "Sonny" Gascon officially strips Christopher N. Geary of his Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu rank and teaching certificate.
With over 50 years in the martial arts, GM Victor "Sonny" Gascon has never taken rank back from anyone. There have been arguments in the past and GM Gascon said to these people if you condemn me, send back the rank from me. None of them did. To date, no one has had a disagreement with GM Gascon has ever talked to him face to face. No one. For the record, those few that called themselves direct students and broke away from him, NEVER took a single lesson from him. Todd Monis, who signed Geary's guestbook supporting him and condemning the KGS BBS, still calls himself a direct student of Sonny Gascon on his website and that he was inducted into the KGS BBS. Prof. Rash has an e-mail from Monis asking to be able to come back into the KGS BBS months after he resigned. Guess he forgot that he sent it.
As far as the stripping of rank:
Christopher N. Geary is the first and only person ever to be dishonored in this manner. Christopher N. Geary also has the dubious distinction of being the only person to be stripped of rank by Professor Cerio.

[KGS BBS]

Gee, guys, do we see a pattern here with Professor Geary? Nawwwww....just my imagination, lol.

David, you're not going to play two ends against the middle with me, I've been around too long for that B.S. Try someone else. Maybe you can pull the wool over Geary and Steiner's eyes but not mine.

[floridawarrant]

Prof. Shuras,
you are obviously a real up front guy.
The KGS BBS guys always post where they will be. I noticed Geary does not.
I suggest that perhaps Geary post his itinerary.
Reading the 2 web sites I noticed that the KGS BBS has several Karate/ Kick boxing world champions in their stable.
Paula Pucino, Dennis Passereti, John Levesque, Mike Luster, Larry Martin.And probably more that I do not recognize their names yet. All members of your group.
Also that you guys have done seminars all around the United States.
Perhaps Geary could get together with the KGS BBS members and show them the light?
That would be real entertaining. I'd pay to see it.
Prof. Shuras I will e mail you, I met you in Mass. about a year ago.

[Joe V.]

David,
Please don't misunderstand me, I do not hate Geary. I PITY Geary. He obviously needs the approval of others to maintain his self worth. Look at the record. He is constantly searching for others approval in order to find gratification. If Geary is such a great Martial Artist let him do what every other LEGITIMATE Martial Artist did... Teach for 25 or 30 years. Produce students that eventually become better than their Master... Produce students that create their own systems... Produce students that become champions at the National or Regional level... Last but not least, pass on the tradition of humility towards your fellow man and respect for your elders in the Martial Arts... THEN he can call himself "Professor" and I don't think anyone on this or any future forum would have anything to say except "congratulations" There are no short cuts in the Martial Arts. Time makes you or exposes you in the Martial Arts. There are no cheat-codes, no fast forwarding, no get out of jail free cards. Geary hasn't learned any of this yet. I don't hate him I pity him. He has just blown any chance of becoming a respected Senior in the Martial Arts. He has cut off his nose to spite his face! Time will show him up.
I am sorry I didn't understand the part about "reprecussion from Geary"
JoeV.

[Doc C.]

Isn't it nice for a senior to call another senior's technique(s) 'junk' at an open seminar especially when the senior being attacked is deceased. It would have never been said to Mr. Cerio's face and besides, one man's trash is another man's treasure. Perhaps, Professor Cerio felt the same same way about Doc's techniques but never said it publically out of respect. Much of Cerio's style was rooted in the Karazenpo Go Shinjtutsu of senior Grandmasters' Victor 'Sonny' Gascon (Kajukenbo) and S. George Pesare and modified through Cerio's studies under Professor William Kwai Sun Chow. Junk? I think not. Take it up individually with these men if you wish. Respect, yes, respect, something that is slowly but surley disintergrating in the arts of today. Too bad.

Personally, if I was in that position and I have been on several occasions over the years, I simply tell the student(s) yes, that technique is fine from Master John Smith but here is my personal perspective or interpretation of the movement. What we have here are simply acceptable levels of variations and that we all have individual stylistic differences. Take what you like and learn it. I would never put down another teacher in front of an audience with the mindset of 'my style is better than your style'. I have also been trained and certified to teach and make instructors in police defensive tactics as I know Doc has also been. In our training in Massachusetts it is stressed to NEVER EVER put down another D.T. instructor in front of other officers if your technique differs from his/hers and we were told to explain it as an 'acceptable level of variation'. At the F.B.I. academy in Virginia they tell you that when you go for a promotional interview never put down your competition of why he/she shouldn't get the job BUT instead give reasons why YOU should be chosen for the position. Great advice, I think.

In defense of Doc and let me make this perfectly clear, I have the utmost respect for him, I mean that, and have defended him on forums when others in EPAK have come down on him. I am very surprised that he said something like that but since I did not hear him say it directly, I will give him the benefit of the doubt of heresay. If Doc did 'slip', it happens, we're all human, and did say something like that, I'm sure he wouldn't want it repeated on a public forum, not the Doc I have come to know over the years through correspondence. Respectfully submitted, Professor Joe Shuras

*Edited for grammar correction
Man I wish I knew who you were. Is that you Joe? Anyway you're correct. I didn't say anything negative about GM Cerio. What I said was Geary was trying to do what Cerio would have done, but he (Geary) was doing it badly (junk), and I stand by the statement.

As for the "letter," it was written by Mr. Angell and signed by me. Read it carefully. I'm an old cop as you know, and I'm very careful about what I sign and endorse. :)

I would never get in front of a group and disparage another instructor even if I thought what he was doing is "junk." I was giving Geary a hint in a private session, but apparently, he didn't hear it which doesn't surprise me.

Don't be too hard on David. He's good people and could have said things a tad better, but I know he meant know harm. I met some really great people up there, and he and Shawn are the best. Good martial artist with open minds to learn new things, and humble as they come.

If there is anything else, email me. I haven't read anything else, and I don't get over here very often. I can only write as much as I do on one forum.

Thanks for listening and I apologize for any misunderstanding.

[KGS BBS]

Hi Doc, ya, that's me, Doc! lol. I am upset as you can tell and it takes a lot for me to blow up like this. As you can see from my posts, I found it hard to believe that you had said any disparaging remarks about a fellow senior and I have made that perfectly clear to everyone or at least I hope I did. I'm sure you read David's post and he did not explain it like you just clarified and your clarification is the Doc I know! He made it sound very negative in anyone's viewpoint and I feel he mean't it to come out that way due to his instructors' problem with Prof. Nick Cerio and another seperate issue regarding NCK. I don't know if you are aware but there is a Nick Cerio Kenpo school in Omaha. It is run by a helluva nice guy and skilled martial artist from what I have been told by someone I totally trust. Hanshi Craig Seavey, co-head of NCK and the instructor who groomed to Black Belt and beyond. Craig and I have been friends for over 30 years. This NCK instructor in Omaha was allegedly burned by Mr. Geary in a business deal to run one of Geary's schools and NCK took him in. Chris told me his side in a phone converstation and I also heard the other side. I am not passing judgement either way on a public forum because as far as I'm concerned it's really none of my business. I'm bringing this much of it up just to clarify to you why I believe that remark by David about Cerio was purposely worded that way. These two schools are obviously arch rivals.

I have never said anything against the abilities of Geary or Steiner soley because I have never seen them do anything. Even if I did and it were negative, I would not comment on a public forum, I stay away from that b.s. The only thing I stated on this forum was that by looking at the techniques he posted and explained on his website, it was my opinion he was essentially teaching the 'surface arts'. Many in the past started out teaching the surface arts and then took MANY YEARS to evolve to higher levels of understanding and techniques. This is not a reach by me. He has not been studying the arts that long and when you take into account how long he has studied under a qualified instructor, it's even less, much less. The term 'self taught' rings a bell. This was deduced from his own autobiography. I am not even going to pass judgement on that BUT here's where everyone is up and arms about. For his time in grade he has propelled himself to martial arts superstar status if you read his websites. I have to agree with JoeV., humility is not in his vocabulary. You know though, that is just something we'd laugh about behind closed doors but here's the problem. Now, anyone can have a blowout with an instructor, you hear about it all the time and it's usually over personal politics but Geary has taken those blowouts to a whole new level by disparaging remarks about their character and making allegations that have no merit, not to mention he waited until one man, Cerio, passed away before he started in on him. Geary's blowouts do not occur over politics, they occur when he doesn't get what he wants from an instructor and that's rank. At least, that's what the timing of these events show beyond any reasonable doubt by a reasonable person. This is very obvious with both Nick Cerio and Sonny Gascon. If you think about it, it started originally with United Studios of Self Defense. Geary has to learn that rank is something you wear, RESPECT is something you EARN and that comes with time. Respect is also a two way street.

Doc, you stated: As for the "letter," it was written by Mr. Angell and signed by me. Read it carefully. I'm an old cop as you know, and I'm very careful about what I sign and endorse.

Okay, I'll reread it again but it still makes people suspicious of Geary because the letter was written by Angel. David wrote in a post that the letter was written by Geary but regardless, if I were to do that (which I wouldn't, let me make that clear,lol) I would have had asked you to write the whole thing out. Know what I mean? I wouldn't have another nstructor whom I know endorses me write it and give it to you to sign. It's 'misleading' to say the least on Geary's part.

Lastly, my correspondence with David has always been cordial until of late and I have told him I thought he was good people. However, he seemed to make a turnaround and stated that I twisted what he said as if to call me a liar. His responses appeared cocky and arrogant and that's when he crossed the line with me. In my opinion, he drew first blood. David has to realize that if his 'founder' is going to go and publically slander the older respected seniors who have 'made their bones' then this is the fallout he should expect. Remember, slander is only when something has not been proved or can't be proved. Any negative things said about Geary and Steiner have come from public record and Geary's own signed confession.

Doc, Take care & be Safe, with Respect, Joe

[KGS BBS]

Thank you very much, "FloridaWarrant" (love that one!,lol) Your comments are deeply appreciated. I will check my private e-mail. Thanks again, my Brother. Sincerely, Joe

[KenpoDavid]

Wow, you had a busy day, Joe! Where do you find the time... But let me correct a few things you've said.

I never called you a liar. I did say you were twisting my words and I still feel like you have.

I explained that Chapel was describing Geary's performance of a technique that reminded Chapel of how Cerio did things. Which is exaclty what Chapel just said.

Your feelings about how or why I word something are just that - your feelings. I have nothing against Tom Scott, never met him (I almost did but he stood me up one morning). I could not care any less what he or his school is doing. But logically answer this: Tom got his shodan from Prof. Geary. He's had mostly video instruction and seminars since then. How good could he really be, given your opinion of Geary's ability and the efficacy of distance learning???

"Allegedly burned by" - is that synonmous with "broke his contract and got sued by"?? That must be cop-talk or something :)

PLEASE read my posts carefully. I've never posted anything, anywhere, ever where Prof. Geary said ANYTHING about Nick Cerio!!! See how you twist it up??? I also have not "defended" Prof. Geary's history or writings on his web site, I've never claimed he was my "hero", I've never made any claim that he was any kind of martial artist, good or bad (much to his annoyance I assure you). All I've tried to do in this resurrection of this old thread is to correct the mis-statements you are making about ME and what I write.

I NEVER said that Geary wrote that letter. I said he "asked Doc to sign it". YOU assumed that Geary wrote it becasue it served your agenda to do so.

My personality has not changed, but my patience with and desire to be understood by and liked by Prof. Joe Shuras has. Nobody coerced me to write any of this. Except you, Joe, by intentionally trying to make me look bad, by twisting my words and playing loose with the truth.

Is it really true that the KGS has never taken rank back? I think that is not true. Is Bruce Corrigan still ranked by KGS? I'm not calling you a liar, I'm just aksing if what was posted is accurate. It seems like the truth was embellsihed a bit. Oh yeah, Geary did not give himself the title of Professor. that came from the guys at HMAIS - Jamie Abregana (sp?) and John Pagdilao.

If Geary's technique is as bad as they now say, then how did Gascon and Rash look at a video tape of him and decide to promote him to 6th??? Can they tell good from bad? There's really only 3 ways to explain it: (1) Geary is not as bad as they now say and in fact performed at 6th dan ability; (2) Gascon and Rash cannot discern between a proper 6th and a "fraud"; (3) they did not care if he was any good or not and they promoted him anyway for their own reasons that I will not guess at. Is there any other way to reconcile it??????????????? What am I missing???


"tough guys of Cerio's as you put it" where did I write that??? Is this twisting my words or putting words in my mouth? And do you REALLY think that Prof. Geary would fly to new england to harass somebody's wife or daughter??? That is really low-class mud-slinging at its worst. I should be just as afraid that you would use your back-channel cop connections (the ones that make you privvy to secret facts not in the public records in Florida) to make trouble for me with my local PD.

For the record, can you guys tell me exactly how a progression to 9th or higher SHOULD be done? Perhaps you could use Mike Rash as an example. Let's start with him being 2nd degree in the early 90s - how did it go from there - 7 stripes in 10 years, I thought that was too fast??? Or George Pesare... how did his rank progression go again, I'm a bit fuzzy on the details between his purple and 9th dan... In Hawaiin Kempo do kyu ranked guys often hand out advanced dans (Pesare->Cerio)??

It boils down to this for me: Geary posted some things about the KGS that the KGS didn't like. He said it was run poorly and disorganized, mis-managed and unresponsive, and that the KGS didn't really provide any value to the students (I know, I am one... I got a cool patch and certificate for my $24 and that's all I ever heard from you guys. $24 is a godo price for a cert and patch I thought). That's about it. Here is the link for anyone who wants to see what started this feud

http://www.christophergeary.com/autobiography-14.php

In response the KGS has decided that they want to completely discredit Prof. Geary. And so across the internet you and other KGS cronies have pursued me and him, posting shrill, hateful, exaggerated and embellished personal attacks against us both. I'm just a student at one of his schools LOL! but, I am just about the only CNG's student that you can get at on the internet, so I guess I make a convenient target of opportunity.

Finally, I think it is disgustingly hypocritical of YOU to criticize me for repeating one line from a session with Doc Chapel, and then to come here and post 2 or 3 private e-mails between you and me. Justify it how you like, it was hypocritical and low-class and I expected better from you.

[KGS BBS]

David, it is you that talks through both sides of your mouth. No one else involved in this correspondence seems to misunderstand what I write and the only twist or what I would rather call 'spin' is what you put on it. I was e-mailed and asked if you were Geary's 'spin doctor'. You have a helluva future in politics if you choose that route. Talk about having a busy day, careful you don't get a stroke over that last volley you wrote in defense of the undefenseable.(hmmm, I think I created a new word, lol). Very busy day for you too, huh David? I guess you found the time the same way I did do don't be a hypocrit.

So David, I could continue to be manipulated by you and play your silly game and give responses to all your allegations and/or questions that have been repeated and answered so many times before on this forum and many others but why bore everyone. It is getting pretty old you know! Just ask around.
You can continue to play with someone else if you want, because David, guess what? I'm through playing.....Yep, I'm picking up my toys and going home, lol. You're a lost cause!

So best of luck in your studies and all that I ask is one favor of you, if of course you don't mind granting it and if you do mind, who cares? No one here. If you ever come to your senses some day and as they say, 'see the light', drop me an e-mail and I promise I won't bust your balls about it. At this point, I have nothing else to say to you that hasn't been already said by me and others. Again, good luck and take care. Joe


PS: Explain this one to Professor Geary, you better spin this one too!

Private Message: other stuff
18-Jan-2006, 07:44 PM
KenpoDavid
Working Title Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Bellevue, Nebraska, USA
Posts: 1,629

other stuff

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Doc told me lots of things about lots of guys in private that I can't repeat. Including his real opinion of Prof. Geary and Nick Cerio and Larry Tatum etc etc.

-D
__________________
How long have you been training? Do you even know your THAC0?

[KenpoDavid]

OK just to be clear (for my own clarity, sicne you are not reading this anymore)

You don't care to :

compare Rash's rise form 6th to 9th in less than 3 years (2001-2004) to Geary rise form 1st to 7th in 10 years? why not? (I see a pic of Rash on the KGS site from 2001, he is wearing a 6th. He came to Omaha in 2004 sporting a 9th. What's up with that???)

Or to explain how the KGS promoted someone with such horrible technique in the first place? was that ego, greed, or stupidity? or was the technique not as bad as you want everyone to believe?

or to explain why the KGS has said "this is the first time we have done this" when I know of a handful of others who have gone through this same course with the KGS?

or to explain how you can reconcile your criticism of me for quoting private remarks (which were made in a room full of people) with your posting of private emails?

yeah, that's ok, those questiosn can go unanswered. I think the answers are self-evident anyway.

Do you hope that re-posting that private e-mail I sent you would cause trouble for me with Prof. Geary? That's just conniving, mean-spirited, immature and hypocritical of you. Not to mention ineffective. I think you have (again) let your emotions get the better of you, Joe. I am reasonably sure that you are capable of better.

I am as much Geary's "spin doctor" as you are Rash's.

-D

[KGS BBS]

See, David, you got me again. I'm stooping so low as to anwser you after I said I was done, shame on me!, lol.



David's quote: I am as much Geary's "spin doctor" as you are Rash's.

First of all, I told someone you would say that (I am as much Geary's "spin doctor" as you are Rash's.) simply because you're not original enough to come up with something on your own, like your "Flounder", hate to tell you, but Hanshi Craig Seavey took NCK, Shaolin Kempo and Goju ryu, started blending it 1998 and teaches it THE RIGHT WAY probably because he's got almost three and half decades of experience and is extremely talented. Your "Flounder" is a little too late for his re-invention of the wheel just like you. Next, all you questions will be answered AGAIN directly from Professor Michael Rash as soon as his registration here goes through. OKAY, STRAIGHT FROM THE HORSE'S MOUTH. Prof. Mike, not that I think of you as a horse, ofcourse, bad pun.

Oh, you also stated: or to explain how you can reconcile your criticism of me for quoting private remarks (which were made in a room full of people) with your posting of private emails?

I say: What's wrong with that, David? DO YOU REMEMBER WHEN I TOLD YOU TO LET IT GO BECAUSE I HAD MUCH MORE TO SAY AND THAT I DIDN'T WANT TO GET DIRTY BECAUSE SOMETIMES TO CATCH A RAT, YES, DAVID, A RAT, YOU HAVE TO JUMP IN THE GUTTER? Remember that David? if not, review the posts here, you'll find it. You were warned so don't bicth to me.

David stated: Do you hope that re-posting that private e-mail I sent you would cause trouble for me with Prof. Geary? That's just conniving, mean-spirited, immature and hypocritical of you. Not to mention ineffective. I think you have (again) let your emotions get the better of you, Joe. I am reasonably sure that you are capable of better.

I say: Again, Conniving, mean-spirited and hypocritcal of me? Hell David, that shouldn't offend you, it sounds like someone you know very well, doesn't it? lol. You are right David, my emotions did get a little carried away because guys like you would never have what it takes to talk to people like that to their faces but don't worry, I won't fly down to Omaha and pour paint thinner on your car and put your signifant other in fear. You're right again, I am TOO GOOD FOR THAT!

Last but not least, if Geary doesn't believe that you were withholding something from him, talkng behind his back and playing both ends against the middle with that e-mail, then David, CONGRATULATIONS BECAUSE YOU OUT-CONNED THE CON MAN, you have made it through the final door of the Geary Priviledge Temple in Omaha, you have made it to the Big Time! OR Geary's pretty stupid and I don't believe he's stupid. Does the name Judas Iscariot ring a bell, Chris? Next, Professor Rash will post when he's cleared. If you have anything to say to me more I would appreciate it someday if you tell me in person to my face rather on the net. No threat but the keyboards aren't really the appropiate way to do this, it's too cyber-warriorish, lol. Take care & be safe, Joe

[Pacificshore]

Alright...this has just got to END!!! This is MAP, not a hamper for dirty laundry for pete sakes :p :bang:

[Joe V.]

David,
You ask what the difference between Prof. Rash getting his ranking and Geary.
I think you missed the part that he never got his Shodan honorably. You see David, that is the whole point. Geary lied to Prof. Cerio... He admits this, in living color, on his website. Can you agree with that?
You cannot compare someone who has EARNED his Shodan with blood, sweat and tears and someone who LIED to get a certificate for Shodan. Can you agree with that?
David, how long have you been in the Arts? How would you feel if a new beginner walked in to your class and was given a belt the same as yours one week later? Maybe the person was a super star, and managed to learn all the techniques you did. Do you think he would be able to pull them off as well as you can? Probably not, do you agree?
Why? Because you have worked on your techniques. You have probably done those moves 100's if not 1000's of times. Do you see my point?
As to how the dan ranking in the Martial Arts are determined and by whom. I can give the same explanation I recieved from my first Instructor in 1968, "The first five dan ranks are given based on what you have learned from the system... The next five are based on what you have brought into the system."

As to the question why was Geary promoted by several respected Masters...

I am not privy to that information, however I can offer a little insight. Most Grand Masters are very humble and honorable people. If they a see an individual that is in need of training, they will take him or her on in the hopes of "bringing them up to rank" properly. Often times these "lost sheep" become excellent Martial Artists after they have been honed by a Master...
The rub with Geary is:
HE LIED TO GET HIS RANK IN THE FIRST PLACE.
HE DISRESPECTS ALL OF HIS FORMER INSTRUCTORS.
HE WHINES LIKE A LITTLE GIRL WHEN HE DOES NOT GET PROMOTED ACCORDING TO HIS SCHEDULE.

David, as one of Geary's affiliates are you familiar with his dojo rules??? The one about "never ask your instructor when your next rank test will be"... Hello, can you say Geary does not follow his own rules??? I am not making any of this up David. Read his bio.... He states it over and over again, and promptly starts bad mouthing his former Master because he was not promoted according to his(Gearys)schedule.

Please David do not compare Geary with the likes of Professor Rash. There is NO comparison to be made there.

I wish you the best in your training!
Joe V.

[kempojosh]

i see both sides of the argument about geary, it seems that some of you are forgetting something. Prof. Nick Ceiro thought that Christopher Geary was good enough to earn his shodan.

yes geary admits to lying to ceiro about his time in the martial arts, and he should not have lied to him. but geary is open about this fact and has not hid it.

a shodan ranking, or anyother ranking, should not based on how long you've been in the martial arts. this isn't the a union job where you reveive promotions based on time with the company. it's a martial art/science where people are promoted based on ability. the only time that "time" should play a role in a promotion is when it's a senior rank, above 5th dan.

the bottom line is ceiro saw what he liked when he reviewed geary....i read that ceiro and and gascon both stripped geary of his rank. how can they do this? they can't do this. these wise grandmasters, grandmasters that have trained in the martial arts for longer than i've been alive (25 years) said that geary is worthy enough of the promotions that they (ceiro and gascon) bestowed upon him.

i find it hard to beleive that after all this time in the martial arts, that ceiro or gascon would slip up and not be able to determine if someone deserves a promotion.

ron chapel seems to side with geary. chapel is what, a 9th dan? does he have the wisdom to stamp his approval on someone?

[kempojosh]

i can understand that prof. rash wants to respond to geary. but did you (prof rash) ever try to call geary? geary said that he tried to call you several times? maybe you should call him to talk this out. if you two can't settle it via phone (instead of via websites) then at least you tried.

[Joe V.]

Kempojosh,
The definition of Martial is: "1.Of, or pertaining to war. 2.Pertaining to or connected with the armed forces or the military profession."
To answer your question as to how Grand Masters can "strip" rank. It goes back to the Martial in the Art. The Grand Masters in any system represent the Commander and Chief of the organization.
In the Military, Officers, Non-Comissioned Officers and Enlisted ranks if judged to have shown conduct unbecoming to that rank can and do have their rank and the priviledges associated with that rank "striped" (demoted) and may be dismissed from the services under dishonorable conditions.
The Chiefs gave you that rank. It is their signatures on the certificates. They can take it back whenever they choose.
The REAL bottom line is that in the end, both Professor Cerio and Sijo Gascon DID NOT like what they saw and admitted they had made a mistake in promoting Geary in the first place and effectively gave him a "dishonorable discharge" from their ranks.
Kempojosh, I think you should re-read Dr. Chappel statement. The part where (paraphrasing)"Geary was doing it like junk and I'll stand by that statement" might have missed your eye.
Keep up your studies in the Arts! One day you will recognize the truth in my words.
JoeV.

[kempojosh]

Kempojosh,
Kempojosh, I think you should re-read Dr. Chappel statement. The part where (paraphrasing)"Geary was doing it like junk and I'll stand by that statement" might have missed your eye.
JoeV.


i was under the impression that one particular techinuque was performing bad. if eveything was bad, then why did dr. chappel sign a certificate stating that prof. geary was good. regardless of who wrote it dr. chappel read and signed it.

[Joe V.]

That is not the impression I received from reading Dr. Chapel's post. You can e-mail Dr. Chapel directly. I will not speak for him.
Take care!
JoeV.

[KGSBBS-MSR]

Kempojosh,
Geary quit the KGSBBS
Geary wrote an e mail quitting which we accepted.
Geary then decided to degrade us like everyone else in his past. Remember when we took him under our wing we were being told by everyone that he was bad news. We still took him in. There was absolutley no need for Geary to slam all the people he has.

Now hes posting crap on his guestbook. Remember only he can post it. ALL designed to take the heat off himself. He can post anything he wants about me I could care less. The KGSBBS is about Sonny Gas not Mike Rash. There is not a single person that ever joined because of me. Do I need to speak to Geary no.
His autobiography still speaks for itself.
They are his words not mine. His NCIS investigater buddy has some skeletons in his closet to.

[Joe V.]

Kempojosh,
My son was looking through Geary's site and found some short clips of him(Geary) in motion. Please go check them out! Especially the one where he is doing 3 Combination "Real Time"...
Let me know what you think.
I found his Introduction sequence to be very... interesting... Check them out and lets talk after...
Welcome Professor Rash!

[KenpoDavid]

Kempojosh,

Now hes posting crap on his guestbook. Remember only he can post it. ALL designed to take the heat off himself. He can post anything he wants about me I could care less.

Anyone can post in a guestbook, that is the point of it.

Your website seems to indicates that you do care quite a bit about what Prof. Geary has to say about the KGS. If nobody cared then why the vehement response???

I think it is weird that Prof. Geary has been able to trick multiple Grandmasters into thinking he looked like he deserved some rank. What are the odds?!?!?!?!111

In the interest of honesty, Josh is also a student at one of Prof. Geary's schools.

[KGSBBS-MSR]

Anyone can post on a guestbook. But not Gearys you have to e mail him first and he posts what he likes. Its not a guest book at all. I'd love to see all the posts.
The KGS yes I do care what he says about the group.

I see we agree that Geary tricked people. Now that we have agreed on that. Why is it that Geary has no one from his past that supports him? I'll be happy to post the tape of Geary that he sent me in its entirety if you would like ,then we can have an open forum to grade it. Hell in the intersest of fairness I'd give him a jr. purple ranking based off his real time LOL movements.

[KenpoDavid]

i was under the impression that one particular techinuque was performing bad. if eveything was bad, then why did dr. chappel sign a certificate stating that prof. geary was good. regardless of who wrote it dr. chappel read and signed it.

Hey Josh I was there I will tell you exactly how it all went down :) None of what is posted here really captures what went on. It was a very interesting insight into some of the strengths and weaknesses of Shaolin kempo (at least as compared to Sublevel 4 kenpo).

[KenpoDavid]

Anyone can post on a guestbook. But not Gearys you have to e mail him first and he posts what he likes. Its not a guest book at all. I'd love to see all the posts.
The KGS yes I do care what he says about the group.

I see we agree that Geary tricked people. Now that we have agreed on that. Why is it that Geary has no one from his past that supports him? I'll be happy to post the tape of Geary that he sent me in its entirety if you would like ,then we can have an open forum to grade it. Hell in the intersest of fairness I'd give him a jr. purple ranking based off his real time LOL movements.

The screening is new, I think it coincided with some KGS people posting attacks in there.

so the first time you watched it you thought he might be a 6th dan, now that you review the tape again, you think maybe 5th kyu. :confused: How did he trick you?

Please do post that tape, I want to see it. "In the interest of fairness", post a video of what a 6th should look like, please. Speaking of video, there is also some new video posted at Some video to make the point (http://www.christophergeary.com/autobiography-14.php) , stuff that was edited out of the version of the seminar video that is sold.. edited out to prevent everyoen seeing that Michael Rash forgot the basic forms of his style. I know you had a bad back and you can see the stiffness in the video. I was there that day and you looked ok to me but now when I watch it again the effects of your injury do show. I'm glad you are better now. But that doesn't explain why you were forgetting the form.

[KGSBBS-MSR]

David,
I did not forget the form.
I had no intention of doing anything that day other than doing some basics. Like I said I taught the class at 30 percent. Then did the form the best I could do
I told Sijo I did not want to do another form. My words were I could do it but I would look retarded. The first form did do me in. Look at the video Geary posted Sigung Namahoe came over and started rubbing my leg and back after I was done.
Ask anyone from the East Coast when I went through the forms with them at Jim Speights school did I forget them no. But we did not work on the Villari or USSD forms as was what Stiener did. I said I could show the monkey dance version that Stiener did
I went though several of our forms with video rolling.
Did I do them full blast no. Heres the kicker David I did not review his tape. I sent it to Sijo Gascon, and he did not view it either. We did not promote him to 6th he was already 6th. Geary was being degraded by everyone at the time and Sijo Gascon decided to take him in under his wing. This based on his certificate from Prof. Cerio and his 6th from Hanshi Angel. He left us then degraded us. I let his stuff sit up on his sites for a month before I answered back. I used his words. If there is something that I twisted let me know. I took what he wrote and put it down in the order he wrote it.
Also the tape Geary sent me Geary says KADA not Kata and Sajoh instead of Sijo big deal ,but in the interest of fairness I'll play that also. I'll get his tape transfered and posted asap.

[KGSBBS-MSR]

let me clarify i went through several forms with video rolling in the East Coast not at Gearys.

[KenpoDavid]

David,
I did not forget the form.... Heres the kicker David I did not review his tape. I sent it to Sijo Gascon, and he did not view it either. We did not promote him to 6th he was already 6th.... Also the tape Geary sent me Geary says KADA not Kata and Sajoh instead of Sijo big deal...I'll get his tape transfered and posted asap.

OK, fair enough, I do remember you doing a couple of forms and we all really enjoyed the comparisons and talked about them for weeks.

I think it is odd that you would give somebody a 6th in your system having never seen him perform, not even on video. I think you are trying to hide behind some semantic tricks saying he was already a 6th... You guys decided to make him a 6th in your system, the latest story is that you did not even review the tape. You've published strict new procedures for selecting new state representatives, I think one of those steps should be to actually watch their video. Or OMG what a great idea... test them live yourself!

I've resisted the temptation to go point-by-point through the diatribe on KGS site and I will continue to not do that. 98% of people who are reading this don't care and the rest have already made up their mind.

"t" sound vs "d' sound... I've got a cold right now all my t's sound like d's and vice versa. and v's and b's too... what's the point???

-Tabit Carbley (with a stopped-up nose)



PS - will you be able to show us what it should have looked like for 6th?

[KGSBBS-MSR]

David like I said. Sijo Gascon took him in under his wing.
Geary was looking for a group to come under, he approached us not vice versa.
He did this as Geary was the underdog, and at the time we did not know alot about him other than he presented us with 2 certificates. 1 from Professor Cerio 1. from Hanshi Angel it says 6th degree Shaolin Kempo So does ours. The same as if someone from Parkers system joined Tatums organization. He would not be a 6th in Parkers and a 6th in Tatums. Hes a 6th in American Kenpo same as we were doing for Geary.
Regarding your PS I dont answer to people of your rank you want me to show you something ask me face to face, (same with your founder) At the next gathering of Eagles (Its a function where all the Kenpo/Kempo systems and Seniors get together, you and Geary are more than welcome to show up its open to all.
We have been to both and will certainly be there the next time.
Be warned if you get an attitude with the seniors there you'll probably end up wearing your teeth for a necklace as a souvenier. Thats not a threat its something that people with little time in the Arts should realize. Its easy to get wise in front of a keyboard but I have been respectful you you and I expect the same from you.

[kempojosh]

in all fairness, it seems that these grandmasters do make alot of mistakes. why would any master of a system invite somone into an asscoistion and not review any material. it doesn't make any sense. so exactly what happened here? did rash and gascon assume that the other reviewed the tape then 2 or 3 years later realize that neither had reviewed the tape of geary. if a master/grandmaster can not tell is someone deserves to be ranked 6th dan, or any other rank, then is the person really a master.

if the karenzenpo group really heard alot of bad stories about geary, then why did you guys accept him and his rank without reviewing it.

on the karenenzempo site they respond to geary. they do not mention that the reason he was in hawaii was to receive his professorship from the hawaiian international martial arts asscoiation/society.

there are a few things missing from the story on the karenzenpo website.

[Joe V.]

in all fairness, it seems that these grandmasters do make alot of mistakes. why would any master of a system invite somone into an asscoistion and not review any material. it doesn't make any sense. so exactly what happened here? .

I would say this happened... Honorable men of their word, who speak very softly, but hit like a ton of bricks. Actually took someone's, who called himself a Shodan and Master "at his word". After all, these men, (Professor Cerio and Sijo Gascon) would never dream of calling themselves something they were not in the Martial Arts community.

If Geary joined the KGS BBS with any intent other than to support Sijo Gascon and honor his lineage... Then he had an ulterior motive from the begining... More Stripes!

Come on Josh, even you and David both have to see that.

Speaking of seeing... I saw the videos of Geary on his site... I have been teaching Kempo Karate as a Dan rank for almost seven years, have been in the Arts for over 30 years. I was not impressed at all... I will give him the benefit of the dought though. Does he move like that all the time? Was he ill when he filmed that?lol!
JoeV.

[Joe V.]

David,
Man, you have no respect for your Seniors in the Arts...
I can tell you have never met any of the guys who are "The Real Deal" face to face. You would be much more humble in your approach.
You can go to masterscenters.com... Look under the photos link... There is a link to Professor James Bryant walking through 2 Kata. Professor Bryant is a Hachidan. I remember him at Rokkudan... He still moved the same.
Compare that to anything you have of Geary...
I would love to hear the comparissons from any one viewing this as well!

[kempojosh]

i couldn't find any videos of geary (other than the one where he is doing pinan 1 in the field and then he looks into the sunset). where can i find these videos? and where can i find videos of these other masters performing their techniques?

the point that i was trying to make about rash and gascon was that it seems to be a very rookie mistake to not review someone before accepting their rank or giving rank to someone. the same thing applies to ceiro. i don't understand how someone will watch a video of someone and say "you're good enough to be a black belt" and then change his mind down the road. i understand that people aren't perfect, but come on.

[Joe V.]

KempoJosh, The vidoes of Geary are on his website... If you saw the intro, scroll down, he has a gun technique and does 3 combination.
I cannot and will not speak for Professor Cerio and Sijo Gascon. I gave you my opinion on what I think happened. Professor Cerio and Sijo Gascon took him at his word, period. They made a mistake. They corrected their mistake. Geary has some distinction! To be demoted and from stripped from the family by two of the most honored and respected men in the Grand Master Mitose family tree!
Just calling it like I see it.
JoeV.

[kempojosh]

joe v.
i understand that you can not and will not speak for those 2 men, so you gave your opinion. and i can't speak for geary...but here's my opinion. with all due respect to ceiro and gascon, it appears that they liked geary until geary called them out on the way they ran their house.

[KenpoDavid]

David like I said. Sijo Gascon took him in under his wing.
Geary was looking for a group to come under, he approached us not vice versa.
He did this as Geary was the underdog, and at the time we did not know alot about him other than he presented us with 2 certificates. 1 from Professor Cerio 1. from Hanshi Angel it says 6th degree Shaolin Kempo So does ours. The same as if someone from Parkers system joined Tatums organization. He would not be a 6th in Parkers and a 6th in Tatums. Hes a 6th in American Kenpo same as we were doing for Geary.
Regarding your PS I dont answer to people of your rank you want me to show you something ask me face to face, (same with your founder) At the next gathering of Eagles (Its a function where all the Kenpo/Kempo systems and Seniors get together, you and Geary are more than welcome to show up its open to all.
We have been to both and will certainly be there the next time.
Be warned if you get an attitude with the seniors there you'll probably end up wearing your teeth for a necklace as a souvenier. Thats not a threat its something that people with little time in the Arts should realize. Its easy to get wise in front of a keyboard but I have been respectful you you and I expect the same from you.


I'm not trying to be disrespectful but I will be direct. I respect what you have done for our style in your 16 years or so as a black belt. But you guys have shown few limits in your responses to Prof. Geary's article about his impressions of your organization, and in bringing those issues here, to me, and using them to tear me down in a thread that was about an important event in my training as a Martial Artist. I didn't ask to be part of your disagreement with Prof. Geary and I prefer to stay out of these types of campaigns - Prof. Shuras (KGS BBS) came here looking for me. So I think I have the right to say what I mean.

You can read my request for comparitive video as some sort of challenge, or you can look beyond your emotional defensive response and see it as an opportunity to make your point very dramatically, if it can be so made. It doesn't have to be you yourself, that's not what I was saying... I'm not challenging you to prove you are better than Prof. Geary, I want to look at the videos side by side and see the difference between what you call "purple" now (6th dan a year ago) and what you call 6th today.

I believe you took his approach in good faith but I also believe that Prof. Geary had high hopes as well, and did not set out to find an organization to resign from. Rather I believe he really did hope to find something important and valuable at the KGS. Unfortunately, you did not live up to his expectations, and he did not live up to yours. You are all human beings, it happens. He wrote candidly about his experiences and resigned from your group. In response, you have set out to discredit him, and it's gotten dirty and dirtier.

And as for "wearing my teeth for a necklace", :woo: you may try to discredit our schools, but one of the reasons I study martial arts, one of the things I have learned from Professor Geary and Shihan Steiner, is the principle that I should not have to yield my safety, rights, and dignity to violence from the thugs who would try to take them.

"Threat", "Warning" or "Advice" whatever you want to call it... if I earn a (attempted) beating then so be it but I'm going to say what I mean, sir. I may have 3 years experience in MA but I'm a grown man just like you, and will stand up to a fight not cower and cry. My father taught me as a child that violence is the refuge of a small mind made desperate; and that thugs should be stood up to. So please leave that kind of rhetoric aside, I will be polite and respectful because you are a man like me, not because I'm afraid that you (or anyone else) might attack me one day. :rolleyes:

-D

PS
Joe V, I've met a few guys with experience that exceed Mr. Rash's 15 years as a black belt; I am humble, and have made nothing but friends (until now).

But these guys brought this fight to me: a student at one of Professor Geary's schools who has a visibility on some internet forums - an easy target. What am I supposed to do, roll over and hide my tail between my legs because Joe and Mike got some fancy certificates on their walls???? Let them bully me because they've been training longer than I have??? Is that what you would do in my shoes?

[KGS BBS]

David, I'm back to address and clear up two things then I'll leave. First:Prof. Shuras (KGS BBS) came here looking for me.

Please get this straight. I never came here looking for you. I stumbled upon your post about the seminar and took offense to comments made about Nick Cerio which has been cleared up to my satisfaction by Doc Chapel. It was purely accidental. I'm a straight shooter, if I came here looking for you, I would tell you, David.

Secondly: What am I supposed to do, roll over and hide my tail between my legs because Joe and Mike got some fancy certificates on their walls????

I agree, you don't run and hide, there's need for sarcasim ('fancy certificates') either, BUT know this. You have never been to my school. So I know you are just making a generalization because all schools have and should have credentials displayed for the public to check out (I'm sure Chris and Shawn have them) but I am not a 'paper tiger' and I am not a 'paper chaser' and have never been called one. I can and have backed up those 'fancy' certificates on the wall. I am quite comfortable in my own skin and have demonstrated my art in front of many, many students, the public, my peers and my seniors over the decades. Ask anyone that knows me in the arts. I've been training for 33 years and am still closely involved with my first kenpo instructor who got me to black belt and beyond, Hanshi Craig Seavey. That's a long time so I guess loyalty and respect are two of my better qualities.

As a matter of fact, Chris knows someone that knows me quite well and I've been to his school at an event. A very important event. He's a 'solid' martial artist, tough s.o.b.(and I say that affectionately,lol), he's the real deal. Years ago my wife was burned pretty badly in an industrial accident and I was practically living at U-Mass Medical Center in Worcester, Ma. At the time, her and I did the bulk of the instructing at my school. This man found out about it, I think, through Prof. Cerio and he called and offerred to send someone out from his Virginia school, all the way from Virginia to Mass. mind you, just to keep MY school going. I will never forget that. Never! Feel free to ask him anything about me you would like BUT just one thing. I don't want to get him involved in this battle here, it wouldn't be right. So, I only ask that you keep his name out of it and just check into it privately with no fanfare if you have any doubts about me. Thank you.

In closing, I have always prided my self in an effort, hey, we're all human, lol, to live up to Kempo's School Rules, every Kenpo/Kempo school I've ever been to has them. Effort, Etiquette, Sincerity, Character, Self Control with that I would like to add a little humility, a very important asset not only in the arts but in life in general. I'm proud of my accomplishments but have the humility knowing it was others who believed in me, stuck by me, worked with me and helped me get here. No one does this martial arts thing alone, you have to be with the right people, in that, I feel I was blessed.

Okay, sorry to interrupt, you guys can continue your discussion but like I said before, I've said enough and am simply an observer here now. My name didn't come up again until this last post and I just wanted to clear up these two statements. David, no hard feelings. Gentlemen, carry on..............and everyone take a deep breath and try to keep it as civil as possible, I know it's difficult, been there,lol, but Pacificshore was right in his post. This really isn't the place to do it.

Respectfully, Prof. Joe Shuras

[Joe V.]

PS
Joe V, I've met a few guys with experience that exceed Mr. Rash's 15 years as a black belt; I am humble, and have made nothing but friends (until now).

But these guys brought this fight to me: a student at one of Professor Geary's schools who has a visibility on some internet forums - an easy target. What am I supposed to do, roll over and hide my tail between my legs because Joe and Mike got some fancy certificates on their walls???? Let them bully me because they've been training longer than I have??? Is that what you would do in my shoes?

David,
We all have rights to speak our minds. I just think you show a lack of respect while you do it. I think this is where your Martial Arts Training is lacking a bit. This is what I tell my students..."If anyone is of a higher rank, you show that person respect for their rank. It is respect for the hard work and dedication they have gone through to achieve the rank you aspire to.
I can assure you if you had come off as cocky and disrespectful in front of any Senior... You would have learned this lesson very clearly. So I can tell you were humble while you were in their presence.

However, I have noticed in both your and KempoJosh's posts how you both lightly throw around the names of Professor Cerio and Sijo Gascon. How about you abbreviate their titles? I noticed this on your founders website as well... It seems there is a lack of tradition in your dojo... Please, I am not trying to flame you here. I just base this on what I have read and am reading.

Did you get a chance to look at the 2 Kata Video of Professor Bryant? Your style should have a version of this form. I teach it for Green Belt. I want to hear your feed back.

JoeV.

[Joe V.]

KempoJosh,
I understand your point and I can say this. What did Geary expect from these men? Did he feel honored by having them accept him to their families? Or, was he just looking for a piece of paper from them? You see, that is my point. It seems that Geary's intent was always to receive gratification and endorsement through less than honorable means. This goes against everything we as Martial Artists stand for.
Notice how Geary seems to trash his Masters as soon as they stop promoting him? Do you see this? Is it coincidence? Or, is this his M.O.?
I know you are one of his students, maybe you have some insight as to his motivation to seek out these men in the beginning?
PS. Did you check out the 2 Kata on masterscenters.com? I want to know if you have that form in your system.
JoeV.

[KenpoDavid]

but I am not a 'paper tiger' and I am not a 'paper chaser' and have never been called one.

That was not my meaning, sorry if it sounded that way. I meant that having rank or title was not in itself sufficient qualification for respect. If that makes me a bad MA, so be it, I am bad haha

[KenpoDavid]

David,

Did you get a chance to look at the 2 Kata Video of Professor Bryant? Your style should have a version of this form. I teach it for Green Belt. I want to hear your feed back.

JoeV.

I will try to get to that today... I love collecting all the variations of the pinan series, very educational. Do you know where I can get videos of the NCK versions??

[KGS BBS]

David's quote:That was not my meaning, sorry if it sounded that way. I meant that having rank or title was not in itself sufficient qualification for respect. If that makes me a bad MA, so be it, I am bad haha
Today 03:54 PM

Okay, David, no problem, just a simple miscommunication. It happens a lot on the net where you don't hear the other person's tone when they say something. I do agree with you. If you check back at one of my earlier posts on this thread I did state: "Rank is something you wear, Respect is something you earn." Take care, Joe

[KGS BBS]

It's hard to stay away from a good debate! I will attempt to handle this sensitive matter as professionally as possible.

I think somewhere along the line with emotions on both sides running a little high, we got off track of what actually transpired. Let's try to be as objective as possible on a rather subjective matter. Since we are not representing NCK, let's stick with KGS BBS to be fair to everyone. Let's back track. I was under the direct impression that Mr. Geary's rank was recinded for ethical and disciplinary reasons by Gm. Gascon. Nothing had been discussed about performance or abilities in regards to the revoking of his rank.

Mr. Geary felt he wasn't getting want he expected of the organization but as far as I can see he has not listed particularly what he expected. They (the KGS BBS entourage) came to his school, paid their own way and put on a seminar for only $20 a head and recognized his 6th dan rank with a ceremony for no fee (as we all know, many ask high fees for such recognition and/or promotion). By the same token, the organization, in time, believed Mr. Geary had a hidden agenda and was using the KGS BBS to advance in rank prematurely. They became a little cynical when around a year after a 6th dan, Mr. Geary, according to the KGS BBS records, requested a promotion to 7th dan. Mr. Geary persisted, according to both Mr. Rash and Mr. Gascon who then decided to distance themselves from Mr. Geary in the hopes he would withdraw his request, one that that they could not and would not grant. Yes, maybe they should have been more direct (but insensitive) and just told him outright but it appears they just attempted to let him down easy. Mr. Geary respectfully resigns from the KGS BBS. He was very respectful in his letter to Gm. Gascon, I read it.

Time goes by, Mr. Geary's rank is not recinded from the KGS BBS, for there was no reason too. Everyone went their seperate ways which is the way it shoud be. After some time, Mr. Rash, Mr. Gascon and yours truly start to get bombarded with e-mails from all over the country of people complaining about Mr. Geary's Chapter 14 of his autobiography in regards to the negativity and slamming of Prof. Nick Cerio, Gm. Sonny Gascon and Prof. Mike Rash. Remember, in several very cordial phone converstions I previously had with Mr. Geary, when the names Gascon, Cerio and Rash came up, he spoke of them in a respectful manner, despite the problem he had with Mr. Cerio over the bounced check incident which was described to me as a misunderstanding. I know Mr. Geary believes that any publicity is good publicity, he told me this himself from a conversation he had with Gm. Gascon, but I tend to disagree. There is a limit to what one means by bad publicity, a line I'm sure no one would want to cross over into. Over the last decade or so, the Catholic Church (my denomination) has received a lot of bad publicity that I would never consider good publicity. I'll rest my case on that one.

Martial arts rank, as much as ALL of us try to defend as having some type of objective criteria is still subjective, yes, subject of the human being or beings' who make the judgement call, their OPINION. Therefore, it is not flawless. Objectives can be a guide and should be but the end result is still the opinion of one or more seniors. Now, sometimes these opinions are made and can stand on their own merit. In other words, there was no outside influence, gain, compassion or other motive for rewarding such rank, other times there are questions. It is not up to me to question why a senior decides to recognize or promote someone. It would be disrespectful to question their decision if they are your direct senior, instructor, founder or head of your system and/or organization. As far as anyone else goes, Hanshi Lou Angel has a response for that one, it's "You mind your store and I'll mind mine." They also have the right to change their opinion, yes, change their minds, we are not an oppressed society here. I guess they have the right not even to give a reason why BUT I would prefer for the sake of of the arts that they do give a valid reason and yes, as long as that reason is valid to them it's okay and why? Simple, it's all subjective. Their OPINION. You don't have to personally agree with it because it's a conclusion someone(s) has drawn when given a set of facts and circumstances, no different than a jury. Some information is factual, other information is circumstantial, then the jury gives their OPINION. In the end the decision is still subject of the jury or SUBJECTIVE.

So, from what I can see, Gm. Gascon's decision was made soley on character. Remember Kempo's 5 school rules: Effort, Etiquette, Sincerity, Character, Self Control. Everyone has an ego, we are all proud of our accomplishments BUT we also have to learn to control and harness that ego. Someone once told me that EGO is how we see ourselves and CHARACTER is how others see us.

Now, there is talk of videos here. Everyone's curisosity has risen. I stated above, rank promotions in the end are subjective, the opinion of the appointing authority. Okay, then if everyone still wants to debate this, it's simple. Link up the video, it's, from what I understand, I have never seen it, Mr. Geary's best showing of his martial arts techniques for his 6th dan promotion. Let the people decide, not Professor Mike Rash, not Gm. Victor 'Sonny' Gascon BUT THE PEOPLE. Does not Mr. Geary state on his website over and over again about his tremendous abilities in the arts and the record time he climbed the ladder? Don't others, like Mr. Angel who promoted him to 7th dan attest to this on his sites. Hey, I know this sounds sarcastic BUT I HONESTLY can't say it any other way for this is essentially what he says on his websites. I think I even played it down a little. This way it takes any bias out of it and will settle this matter once and for all. No mysteries. Let the cameras roll. Respectfully submitted, Prof. Joe

[KenpoDavid]

Prof. Joe, I'm sure you've seen by now the email from Prof. Geary where he let you guys know that he does not release any rights for anyone to put that video on the web or anywhere else (including me). So no video judgement will be passed by the masses I'm afraid.

I think somewhere along the line with emotions on both sides running a little high, we got off track of what actually transpired. Let's try to be as objective as possible on a rather subjective matter. Since we are not representing NCK, let's stick with KGS BBS to be fair to everyone. Let's back track. I was under the direct impression that Mr. Geary's rank was recinded for ethical and disciplinary reasons by Gm. Gascon. Nothing had been discussed about performance or abilities in regards to the revoking of his rank.

I think I agree with that, at least as far as "disciplinary" goes: he wrote some thing that Sijo Gascon and Prof. Rash didn't like and refused to comply with their wishes, they strip him of rank. Ethical? I understand the ethical concerns stemming from the Florida incident, but I don't see how they have anyhting to do with this matter. The KGS was fully aware of all of the details before they accepted Prof. Geary.


...They (the KGS BBS entourage) came to his school, paid their own way and put on a seminar for only $20 a head and recognized his 6th dan rank with a ceremony for no fee (as we all know, many ask high fees for such recognition and/or promotion).


They did NOT pay their own way. Prof. Geary tells me he spent thousands of dollars for plane tickets, meals, and hotel expenes. The lack of a fee for the promotion is honorable and one of the things that the KGS BBS can be proud of. The seminar was about 2 hours long, $20 is a fair price for that. I would have enjoyed longer and more in depth instruction, personally.

They became a little cynical when around a year after a 6th dan, Mr. Geary, according to the KGS BBS records, requested a promotion to 7th dan.... Yes, maybe they should have been more direct (but insensitive) and just told him outright ...

Fair enough. I interpreted the emails that I have seen from Prof. Geary to the KGS BBS not so much as "I want my 7th" but more like "what are the requirements for 7th". I agree, a mesasge saying "It's too early, work towards these kind of goals, we'll talk later" would have been effective. I guess that's the difference between a retired Hawaiian guy and a middle-aged ex-Marine :)


Martial arts rank, as much as ALL of us try to defend as having some type of objective criteria is still subjective, yes, subject of the human being or beings' who make the judgement call, their OPINION. ... It is not up to me to question why a senior decides to recognize or promote someone...

This is often my response to people who question Professor Geary's rank.


Now, there is talk of videos here. Everyone's curisosity has risen. I stated above, rank promotions in the end are subjective, the opinion of the appointing authority.

I think the video is a red herring, a distraction from the real issues which I think we have just addressed. Prof. Rash says that neither he nor Sijo Gascon even reviewed the video before awarding the rank, so it is irrelevant to the discussion. The only reason it came up is becasue Prof. Rash said disparaging things about Prof. Geary's techniqe on the video. I for one will get to see it, and I'm sure if he wants to Prof. Rash can show it to you privately.

ok I feel that I don't know what else needs to be said. <bow>

[KGS BBS]

Yes, David you have made some points that I agree with also but there's a few here we can discuss. Okay we agree on disciplinary but not ethical. Like I said, to be fair I can't speak for NCK officially of why Prof. Cerio did the things he did, so I'm not, but I can and did refer to Chapter 14 which created this problem in the first place and in Chapter 14 Mr. Geary states he wasn't sincere with Prof. Cerio, he lied to him and SINCERITY is one of the rules we all preach to our students. I know none of us are perfect and we all mess up some time but you inquired as to why the issue of ethics and I answered. It's not neccessarily a bad thing to mess up (of course unless it's something really bad) and in admitting it, that's a good thing but one should not relish in it. The impression I got from others was 'ha, ha, I lied to Cerio and got him', more or less. I agree that the KGS BBS already knew of Florida so that could not be a factor in the revocation. Totally agree there.

As far as the correspondance goes on 7th dan, we'll have Prof. Rash comment on that one because he's the one who got the e-mails. What you stated though sounds like what Mr. Geary stated he said to Mr. Cerio right after he received his shodan about going fo nidan. Right? Do you have the two confused? I don't know, I'm just asking. David, thousands of dollars paid out to Rash and Gascon for the trip to Nebraska???? I'm sure Prof. Rash will also answer that one.

The videos, yes, by now, after that last post, I'm now aware of of what you stated about the videos not happening (but I don't know about that) and I have deep reservations and suspicions due to Mr. Geary's reluctance of his true motives of why not.... who wouldn't? I don't think it's a red herring per se because it was you, I believe, David and I'm going to guess Chris behind the scenes because he posted it on his site, that made an issue of videos to Prof. Rash and Mike said go ahead and post it. I would have to say what is good for the goose is good for the gander. Mr. Geary states his superior abilities then he should be proud to have them displayed for all to see. Great advertizing if it is indeed true and if not........well.....and if he is uncooperative, I will not believe his reasons, that's my perrogative and I honestly think any other independant observer of this thread will not believe it either. I won't keep those in suspense so I'll post this e-mail Prof. Mike got and sent to me next. Thank you for your response. Later, Joe

[KGS BBS]

From: "Christopher N. Geary" <kempodragon0@yahoo.com>
Date: 2006/01/30 Mon PM 09:07:25 EST
To: Michael Rash <karazenpo@cox.net>, Sijo Gascon <fgas@hawaii.rr.com>
CC: Angela Burmeister <aburmeister@berkshire-law.com>
Subject: Video...

Dear Mr. Gascon & Mr. Rash,
I am writing to you in reference to my testing tape (see below link). Please
understand that if you display any part of that tape (that I sent to you in good
faith) on the internet, I will have no other recourse than to file a legal suit.
You do not have my permission to display any part of the tape. All techniques
shown in the tape belong to Christopher N. Geary's Kempo Karate Inc. In
addition, there are techniques on the video (Tenshi Goju) that Hanshi Angel does
not want to be made public. My attorney will be notified the very same day it
goes up or if it appears on any site or internet page.

On March 13, 2004, Sijo Gascon relinquished all rights to the video and audio
captured on the same date at the corporate office of Christopher N. Geary's
Shaolin Kempo Karate Inc. Therefore, I have the right to display the video and
audio. A copy of the relinquishment is attached below.

In reference to -
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?p=760663#post760663

I am courtesy copying my attorney, Ms. Angela Burmeister.



Professor Christopher N. Geary Shichidan (7th Degree Black Belt) Hall
of Fame Inductee WHFSC & HMAIS www.kempokarate.com www.christophergeary.com
Email: kempodragon0@yahoo.com

[Saz]

I think this thread has more than run its course now.