siking tactics are dumb [Archive]

Darzeka

31-May-2002, 04:24 AM

Ki-Aing (screaming like a manic) significantly increases your striking force when hitting and helps to regulate your breathing.

When you ki-ai properly you are yelling at the instant you strike or just before, not before you start the attack to throw off your oppenent. Granted it can be used like this but most people will laugh at you.

The best example of increased power through ki-ai's is Bruce Lee. Much of his power came from his ki-ai's when he hit. That is why he makes all the screaming noises in his movies. For most people you can generate an extra 30% power in your strikes. I heard somewhere that Bruce Lee generated an extra 90% but he is an exception and he could concentrate chi and other things like that. It can also be used to put power into a block. Ki-ai when you block a strike and you not only block fatser you also hurt the attackers forearm.

If you can breathe without making the noise and generating some power thats good but you can generate more with a ki-ai. When you train your ki-ais enough you can actually cause all the muscles in your forearms to tense up by themselves when you are standing still go into horse stance, hold your arms out in front of you then ki-ai and there should be some movement in your arms. When you can see all the muscles in your forearms you know your ki-ai's are good).

It is also a mind set. If you punch and scream at the same time it is setting your mind to punching as hard as you can rather than just punching.

The exhale motion will also relax your entire upper body, allow for a faster, more fluid motion.

One of the grading situations where I train is our timed throws. At white belt you are taught 11 throws. In grading you are required to do two of each in a minute twenty to a minute forty. If you go through with Ki-ai's when blocking, striking and finishing off you quickly begin to breathe raggedly and loose time. If you use ki-ai's properly then they help you maintain an even breath, allowing for all your throws to be well performed, not sloppily done due to lack of oxygen in the blood (tiredness).

The same principals apply to our rolls and strikes. rolling in excess of 17 times in a minute thirty is enough to make you knackered but add the strikes and ki-ai's and it becomes easier because the ki-ai's make breathing easier and makes sure it is a full breath.

Practicing your ki-ai's also helps you to breathe better in normal life. Most people's everyday breathing is shallow and uneven. If you breathe slowly, evenly and deeply it keeps you calm and relaxed, so that if you happen to be suprised by anything - a loud noise, someone pushing you or having a knife throw at your head - it will allow for a faster response.

Don't doubt the power of the primal scream. Just try on a bag and notice the difference when you ki-ai at it.

Also "siking out" as you put it is an invaluable tool in a fight. If you can convince someone you are going to do something you aren't, it will make an opening for you to exploit. Baulking, feints and trash talking will make the fight much shorter as you can open a hole in their defence by striking three inches either side of their head then go with a follow in attack.

Anything that makes the path to victory shorter should be embraced.

newbielives

31-May-2002, 08:24 AM

Great response and i believe in everything you say. Generating power from a ki-ai is logical if your purpose is to create energy but if it was meant to some how distract or intimidate your opponent, i think that is pathetic. I've seen in competitions where participants do ki-ai's when they are not even striking. It may be to sike them selves up and get there adrinaline goin or to intimidate their opponent but that is one moment they were left open for any attack. The most vulnerable point in a fight is when you commit to anything. I will admit it probably does intimidate when a ki-ai's yelled in some ordinary martial artist's face. But i must STRESS, THIS POST IS ABOUT FIGHTING THE BEST. A scream to some one who is experience (BEING THE BEST) will only mean he has commited or he is just wasting energy. By looking at his body the way its position and using your martial artist intuition(LIKE sixth sense) you can tell its just a fake or its a commited strike. Im not saying all fakes are bad but ones done not in mid motion of a commited strike are a waste of energy. An example of this is pretending like you are goin to hit to back someone off because you are overwhelmed.

If i was training a womans self defense class or for those who learn the martial arts just to protect them selves, i will totally stress yelling and intimidation as a tactic of self defense . I guess my goal is different because i want to be the best of martial artist and the siking tactics that will win you probably every fight you will ever encounter in your life, I think is a weakness when you are fighting the absolute best.

CyCloNe

31-May-2002, 08:40 AM

Hi,

Only just registered so I thought I would make this my first posting, not sure if new members make any kind of hey, this is me type postings, so I'll just dive straight in.

I just wanted to give my ten pence worth of your statement around

When i think of someone who is experience i think of someone who does not hesitate, who has the biggest ego in the world when it comes to confidence of his techniques. Yelling at him will do nothing because how can he be scared for even a moment when he knows without a doubt in his mind he will win. Fear only comes when you are not sure of your self.

Not wanting to completely agree or disagree with the principal you are putting forward, I would simply like to comment on your statement.

...he knows without a doubt in his mind he will win...

I have never entered a bout *knowing* I will win and to be honest, someone who claims they have is probably just reflecting on a good victory. Without quoting the man himself, I think its fair to say that when you do worry about the outcome, or even worse 'expect' a victory, then you have usually already lost.

Melanie

31-May-2002, 08:59 AM

Welcome Cyclone,

Not a bad start I must say. I have heard similar remarks before too. I have found in the past it's the more cocky and over confident people that are more likely to be hiding a more insecure side to them...it's true what they say about the quiet ones...

I was told to use this 'force' (No Greyghost - not that type of force) from my hara or centre (belly area) and when exhaling push this 'force' from there through to the technique with a kiai to be completed at impact of the technique. I hope I have explained that clearly enough. However explained, I have found this technique reasonably successful so far. I think having SOME confidence in your abilities is important but belief in technique more than strength is more important for me.

CyCloNe

31-May-2002, 09:06 AM

I dont think there is a wrong and a right way to project ones self.

I have seen fights ranging from the loud shouting types overpowering an oponent, to the quite humble types dominating competitions.

I think the underlying issue is to use what you feel comfortable with.

Personally, I tend to favour just the sharp exhales (almost sounds like a hiss) when attacking as this seems not only to have the desired effect from a striking and power perspective, but also (and this is more important in my eyes) it REALLY helps breathing and can be the difference in lasting the duration still able to walk out of the ring, or being carried out.

waya

31-May-2002, 09:58 AM

What would you consider the "best"? Are we talking strictly martial artists, or should we look at all fighters and include military special operatives etc? I don't necessarily mean yelling as an intimidation, but to someone who doesn't have a few years of experience fighting, silently breathing to generate power is simply not an option, as they have not learned enough to develope such an ability. The competitors you see yelling without purpose in tournaments are probably fairly new. Once they achieve some experience beyond that they will learn when it is and is not effective. In the same manner as a smile during a fight can be hugely intimidating to an opponent.

For a feint I generally prefer something that blinds or completely causes distraction, or move to fencing techniques such as last second aiming point changes. Make the strike appear to be for the sternum, body, etc and right before impact change it to a facial strike. The best deceptive motions are generally very subtle and not obvious such as a punch that pulls back too early.

Rob

newbielives

31-May-2002, 12:39 PM

to malanie
what you say is probably true but im talking about confidence that is not a lie. Im not talking about acting confident i am talking about someone who is confident. When i talk about confidence i dont mean i will be confident and go into a fight with a good mind set on the outcome. I am referring to those times that you probably have had as well. When you are fighting perfectly, you know your opponents distance so well you know when exactly you are in striking distance and where you are open. Im talking about grown confidence that you create yourself because you are sure of your self.

Its kinda funny i created this post because i really hated ppl using scare tatics over true skill but the more you ppl reply i have come to realize that for general combat it does work and i shouldn't try to make a point of telling ppl to stop learning them.

For my self however, i will never sink that low to do scare tactics instead of beating someone by pure skill.

LilBunnyRabbit

31-May-2002, 12:48 PM

If you're fighting the best then you're going to lose anyway, because simply by definition you will not be as good as them, so make noise as much as you want. Newbielives, scare tactics are not sinking low, they are simply another weapon. Apparently you don't want a full arsenal, and that's your choice, but I will quite happily sink to any depths in order to not lose a fight.

waya

31-May-2002, 01:12 PM

Murphy's first law of warfare: If your enemy is in range, so are you!!! This also applies to striking. You may be fighting perfectly, but the first time you think about it your opponent will dot your eye for ya.

And, if you were fighting perfectly, wouldn't you not be fighting at all? Just a thought.
Rob

Melanie

31-May-2002, 01:22 PM

Hi

Just a few things...

I think a lot of this debate depends on what scenario you are in at the time. If you're in a dojo, training, sparring you know there is a good chance that your opponent will know the same moves as yourself (more or less). Confidence here I don't think plays as much of an issue - as does repetitive training, co-ordination and familiarisation with the people in your dojo and the way they fight.

Out on the street though, that's another matter. You have no way of predicting what the possible next move will be. I'm not sure what grade/Dan you are newbielives (what is your name btw?) but I can imagine it's like fighting a white belt (never been in a fight before). I remember as a white belt I was so erratic and off balance that I used basically my passion for defending myself at all costs to actually make any contact with my opponent. That didn't mean I actually hurt them (I invariably hurt myself more than them). What I am actually trying to get at (eventually) is that most fights that occur happen spontaneously, no warning. A sign of someone behaving VERY aggressive, kiai-ing, before they attack can upset/frighten some people away before they even attack (in multiple attackers).

I don't think 'scare tactics' really matter when you're trying to defend yourself, friends or familly. As long as the end result means that you are all safely away from the situation and they ain't following!

I don't have that confidence you talk about yet or quite frankly the ability to know that I can defend myself in every situation. One thing I do know, is that just before they kill me - I would have every concievable bit of evidence on me to catch them...I'd bite, claw, tear, and generally take as much of them as possible with me.

newbielives

01-Jun-2002, 10:29 AM

Sorry but some of the post here seem to be pretty dumb
Malanie yours is not but the other two above yours is. Waya probably has never experience a moment of perfection since he can't understand knowing your distance (as a reflex) not a concious thought (its like breathing). For ckd, no comment, its too dumb to reply too.

reply to waya
the best situation would be to not fight at all but i wouldnt consider that a fight or a perfect fight since fighting did not exist in that situation.

reply to malanie I guess its really tiresome to read through all the post but im sure i said somewhere here that if i were to teach womans self defence i would totally recommend and train them to use ki-ai for both gaining more power and siking. However again im talking about fighting someone who is at top level where every useless extent of breath or movement can cost you the fight. I am totally on the side of using ki-ai to gain energy but i am totally against using it as a siking technique. (meaning no intent to strike). This is just my belief on being the best. Most of you should learn ki-ai as a siking techique and other siking techniques because its intimidating to most ppl but as a IRONY I feel that it is a weakness when fighting the best.

Thomas Vince

01-Jun-2002, 12:42 PM

Welcome Newbielives it is great to hear from people on this site and I find more interesting stuff here than most sites i am on.
You said:
"For my self however, i will never sink that low to do scare tactics instead of beating someone by pure skill."

Pardon me for my frankness newbielives but I think you still have much to learn.
It is often hard for martial artists and people in general to grow up, but most martial artists use ma's to mature and become a better person. I don't care who we are everyone will have a fear of some kind or another, if you do not, then something is not right. A healthy fear can keep you alive. Also not to butt heads (wordplay) but I think it innapropriate to say that what someone has said is dumb or ignorant, ckd and waya happen to have very intelligent conversing in this format and I enjoy other opinions. Your mind seems to be closed.
Thomas

The term you are trying to use is actually known as slang: " psych'ing" but I get it.

Andy Murray

01-Jun-2002, 02:31 PM

Which is to be feared more, the dog that Barks before it bites, or the dog that wags it's tail?

Some interesting points being made here.

I was never taught to yell or Ki Ora when striking, but I was taught to exhale. The reason being that while in extended body postures ( namely striking ) you are more prone to being winded, so exhaling is reccomended. The noise is a by product, not the intended effect!

On the subject of confidence and pre-knowledge I would say;

I have fought in Tournaments, and known exactly what was going to happen, and how I would win. This was largely due to visualisation techniques.
If you are an advocate of PMA ( Nice read in the Articles section of this site ), then you will visualise every eventuality and deal with it in a thoroughly positive manner. Thus you can predict the end result.
In reverse! How can you possibly start a technique, if you are not sure that it will lead to a successful conclusion???

A complete Martial Artist, or Street fighter or Soldier, will use every weapon at their disposal. That includes psyching people out!

Just my 4.235 Euro's worth!

Andy

newbielives

01-Jun-2002, 09:47 PM

to thomas murray

You are right i have many fears. If i was fighting someone one to one with just hands i must say my fear is at a minimal and after the first hit when i know how good he is i may become more scared or less. If a gang is after me with knives and i have no weapon, i am scared because i do not believe i am good enough to fight that. However lets say i am the greatest martial arts ever, i would not fear them because for every situation i would know of a way in beating them. My fear comes from my limited ability as i am not the best there is. However i want to train to fight that guy who has no fear not the average martial artist like me.

To andy murray. Its good that you want siking in your arsenal and it will probably be a good tactic against everyone you will ever have to use it against. However all i am saying is when you are fighting someone who is at top level using that strategy will become a weakness.

Sticky

01-Jun-2002, 10:28 PM

Hmmmm...............

I have followed this post and resisted thus far.

When I am the greatest Martial Artist, I will know only when someone tells me. For humility will make me so.

Hmm.

Melanie

01-Jun-2002, 11:08 PM

"reply to malanie I guess its really tiresome to read through all the post but im sure i said somewhere here that if i were to teach womans self defence i would totally recommend and train them to use ki-ai for both gaining more power and siking."

My apologies, I found that and completely forgot!

"However again im talking about fighting someone who is at top level where every useless extent of breath or movement can cost you the fight. I am totally on the side of using ki-ai to gain energy but i am totally against using it as a siking technique. (meaning no intent to strike)."

Would it not be better to avoid a fight altogether than not?

"This is just my belief on being the best. Most of you should learn ki-ai as a siking techique and other siking techniques because its intimidating to most ppl but as a IRONY I feel that it is a weakness when fighting the best."

Why? It's an interesting opinion, but as yet I have not seen any valid reason for it other than you consider it a weakness. Perhaps I have missed your explaination, or misunderstood you. Would you please clarify why you consider this a weakness and why most of 'us' should learn it?

M_e_lanie

Andy Murray

01-Jun-2002, 11:43 PM

To andy murray. Its good that you want siking in your arsenal and it will probably be a good tactic against everyone you will ever have to use it against.

Are you making a presumption on my field of experience here Newbie?. No one on this forum knows what that is!

However all i am saying is when you are fighting someone who is at top level, using that strategy will become a weakness.

Again you seem to assume that I have not!

Psyching people out is a little more than making a face and saying boo!

As Melanie says;
Would you please clarify why you consider this a weakness and why most of 'us' should learn it?

If we have missunderstood the point you are trying to make, then please re-state it!

When I am the greatest Martial Artist, I will know only when someone tells me. For humility will make me so.

Sticky, you are the greatest Martial artist, for I have told you. Now go and get some humble!:D

Andy

Thomas Vince

02-Jun-2002, 12:23 AM

I seem to recall that Ki-ai was not the thread but siking out your opponent. I feel that the Kiai is important depending on how you as an individual want to use it or learn from it. In the case of not using it, the idea of the breath in fighting or "siking" out the opponent is not just an ancient one but also one that is part of a very modern sport called boxing. Boxers use the breath to maintain energy and increase power and focus. They use body motion, facial expressions, hand gestures and vocal tones to overcome the confidence and determination of the opponent. Even our world leaders and military forces throughtout the world use this as a vital tactic to thier strategy. You speak of fighting "the best", or top fighters, yet does what you say come from experience? What do you know about this?
Until you speak more clearly about this "siking" being dumb I cannot relate to your logic.

ladyhawk

02-Jun-2002, 01:16 AM

I intend to use all my resources whether they be mental or physical to gain an advantage and win a battle.

"To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill."
-Ginchin Funakoshi

Darzeka

02-Jun-2002, 01:55 AM

Picture the greatsest Martial artist.

He is of all styles and none.

He is a giant who is knows intimatly how his body works and every place where it i possible to cause damage to it.

He knows his strengths and has no weaknesses.

Hold this image in your head.

He turns his gaze to you and the complete and utter knoweledge that if you attack he won't have to move more one arm to stop you is apparant on his face.

He is just standing there.

Would you feel scared of him?
Would you attack him if he had just commited the worst crime imaginable against your family and got off?
Is his just standing there a psyche out?

Many of the people I would least like to fight act like this. They are in no way "perfect" (no one is perfect) MA's but they carry themselves with the felling that if they cop a baseball bat in the head it wouldn't matter - they will either be dead or alive, nothing would have changed in the grand scheme of things. These people have no malice and don't go around starting fights.

I would consider this to be a psyche out. Inadvertantly scaring someone just by standing, walking, talking or anything will lessen the chance of them wanting to fight you and if they do they will have many second thoughts about doing this.

Knoweledge of techniques will not be enough to win a fight. A completely untutored person can beat a highly trained MA. It is the person who is looking for things like pysche outs and other "low" techniques who is going to win.

waya

02-Jun-2002, 10:34 AM

Waya probably has never experience a moment of perfection since he can't understand knowing your distance (as a reflex) not a concious thought (its like breathing).

The only reply I have to this, is come train with me. True perfection in anything is impossible, there is always room for learning and improvement. If you speak to anyone who has a lifetime of experience in training, ask them how often they still practice basic techniques. The best of them will tell you that they always work on the basics, without them you're technique is nothing.

I have a very firm grasp of knowing my distance in a fight, concious thought is something I spend 80% of my training time ridding myself of because it takes too long to execute an effective technique. But again, the only way you can make any assumption as to how effective I am, is to find out for yourself.

reply to waya
the best situation would be to not fight at all but i wouldnt consider that a fight or a perfect fight since fighting did not exist in that situation.

Really? Have you ever been in a situation where you had to face the inner turmoil of whether to strike, or to leave it alone? If not, then you should because you will find the hardest fight to be with yourself. Hitting someone is extremely simple, walking away from them and not losing control is not.

However lets say i am the greatest martial arts ever, i would not fear them because for every situation i would know of a way in beating them. My fear comes from my limited ability as i am not the best there is. However i want to train to fight that guy who has no fear not the average martial artist like me.

Fear is a weapon as well.
I also do not believe anyone who tells me they do not, or will not feel fear. It is a natural reaction to any dangerous situation, it is what you do with the fear that makes the difference between being a warrior and not being one.

And lastly, the "Greatest" does not exist, and never will. Fighting someone with higher training and more effective skills is a different situation than fighting the average person on the street, however, even those who train the hardest can still be beaten by their weakest opponent.

Rob

newbielives

02-Jun-2002, 11:43 AM

to andy murray i was replaying to your statement "A complete Martial Artist, or Street fighter or Soldier, will use every weapon at their disposal. That includes psyching people out! " I dont know why you got offended so easily by my presumption but my apologies.

Good point though by malanie, i will clarify why i said siking was a weakness against someone at top level.

I will start with my NUMBER 1 philosophy in fighting for me:
Be as efficient as possible meaning no moves should be wasted without a purpose. Every ounce of energy you use in a fight should have a purpose.

By definition of purpose, i mean every motion should either defend yourself or be your offence. If the move is not successful its it still serves a purpose because he had to use energy to either block, deflect or move away.

Eg.)
If you punch and he moves away then the punch had purpose because it made him react.

Now i can explain why i think siking is dumb.

Pretend i fight efficiently against someone who uses siking as one of his tactics.

Pretend my opponent tries too look tough(he is actually trying to look tough without it being natural for that situation) Mental clarity is not at 100 percent, it may take very little mental effort to look tough but some mental resources will be loss while trying looking tough.

My reaction to that will be nothing because it is not something a have to defend therefore there is no loss of mental or physical resources on my part.

Pretend my opponent now tries to fake me out dancing around me doing fake punches and head sways. His purpose for doing that is to make me nervous about where he will be striking. However this will use much or little of his physical resources depending on how healthy he is and maybe open him for strikes while being off balance in movement transition.

My reaction to that will be an examination of his body position, his distance and a martial artist's intuition on telling if a punch is being committed or not.(There probably is a logical explanation for this intuition, as to how the mind examines body posture, but it sure does feel like intuition). This examination becomes a reflex with training and loss of mental clarity is at a minimum if none at all. My loss of physical resources will be zero or be very minimal rotating to keep him in front as he move around me. This is only if I even choose to rotate and I may not have to at all.

Pretend my opponent ki-ai’s (hehe LOTS OF PPL talking about this situation) with no intent to attack. He does this to intimidate me to show he is healthy and strong. By doing the ki-ai, he may gain adrenaline that uses up the blood from his brain putting it into his body increasing his physical ability but lowing his mental resources. Because ki-ai tense the stomach muscles for a moment it also takes up physical resources.

My reaction will be nothing because it is not something I have to defend against. Because its something I don’t have to defend against I will not think about it. This means I don’t lose any mental or physical resources.

In each of those situations I could have chosen to give a offensive move to him if it risk his strategic position or a loss of mental concentration performing a sike out.

If he did the siking well then I would not been able to pull of a offensive move therefore my advantage would come in the long run as I would have won the game of physical resources if both of us were of same physical ability.

WOW THAT WAS LONG

My reply to Darzeka

That is true that someone who just stands can be very intimidating but I am talking about a person who did not intend it to be intimidating. If he is that confident in his techniques that he may seem very relax then so be it.

I don’t agree with “Knoweledge of techniques will not be enough to win a fight. A completely untutored person can beat a highly trained MA. It is the person who is looking for things like pysche outs and other "low" techniques who is going to win.”

I think the man who may have fought over a hundred fights and knew all the tricks and was aware of his own body for defense giving him the confidence that he can walk calmly into a fight, will win the fight.

newbielives

02-Jun-2002, 11:59 AM

Wow its 5am and i need to really get a life:)

Two replies in a roll i really do find this interesting

My reply to waya

My use of words were probably wrong. When i meant perfect i meant (high level). That is true it will probably be impossible to be perfect but it sure is nice to get as close as you can .

It also seems like you want to challange me hehe with your statment "But again, the only way you can make any assumption as to how effective I am, is to find out for yourself. "

I would gladly go train with you(you probably win hahaha). I live in canada BC, if it is possilbe to meet then post it in your next reply and i will post my email address.

Its hard pulling a punch and its a fight against one's self but that is not the kind of fight i am talking about. i could explain the kind of fight i am talking about but then i think most of you know what i mean when i say fight.

if you read my post before this one, my reply to Darzeka
is why is disagree with your last statement

waya

02-Jun-2002, 12:07 PM

I understand High Level performance, in my former line of work it wasn't an option to perform in any other manner. If I had performed at less than my best I most likely would not be posting on this board to put it simply lol.

Challenge isn't really the phrase I would use, that would suggest a fight and that's precisely what I try to avoid, but in truth the only way to gauge anyone's level of performance is to see it firsthand. B.C. isn't all that far in reality, I am looking at spending some time in different parts of Canada next summer, or if you get to the US anytime I am opening a school within the next year on the coast.

My last statement applies to underestimating the person you are fighting because of their training, or lack of. Fear and panic can do amazing things to an average, untrained person in a fight that result in you basically fighting someone who seems to be possessed. I would rather fight an army of old time samurai than make one person completely lose their senses on me.

Rob

Andy Murray

02-Jun-2002, 01:53 PM

" I dont know why you got offended so easily by my presumption but my apologies.

My being offended is yet more presumption on your part Newbie. No offence has been taken!

You need to be able to post your question in a manner that people of all levels of experience can understand though.

ladyhawk

02-Jun-2002, 02:50 PM

It doesn't matter how confident a person is about his own skills and abilities, it is never wise to underestimate your opponent.

Thomas Vince

02-Jun-2002, 03:07 PM

Newbie,
I like Andy Murray am a big fan of Bruce Lee and believe in "economy of motion", but the discription you gave me of your opponent looking tough and throwing fake punches and hooking punches to the head to sike you head reminds of the pimple face overloaded testosterone teens I went to school with. I still do not understand your point "siking is dumb"?
Now maybe It's just me, maybe I am for some reason not able to get a moment of clarity in regards to your posts.
The fact that you do not react to a yell or a fake punch I question. i have been doing this for 20 years and I still sometimes can't tell the difference a punch or fast grab or a fake. Martial Artists are trained that in order "to beat action one must meet it." Which means that if you opponent throws a punch and you do not feint out of the way or block it you get it. How can tell from the point of origin that the punch is going to be a fake punch and not a real punch?

Thomas Vince

02-Jun-2002, 03:13 PM

newbie said:
"I think all this is just crap. Siking ppl out does work if your opponent is a newbie but if he isnt then your just wasting energy. I think when you train to fight you should be training to fight the best not what you think is average among the public."

Again I ask how do you know how much the attacker knows in the street, or are you referring to more organized fights that take place in the ring?

Thomas Vince

02-Jun-2002, 03:16 PM

newbie,
you said in your post:

"It seems that in many martial arts, one of the tactics used in combat is yelling or pretending like you are goin to hit in order scare your opponent and fake them out."

If you are studying martial arts in a studio there is more to this "idea" then your instructor has pointed out. If you are self taught then there is more research that needs to be done.

Thomas Vince

02-Jun-2002, 03:24 PM

another post by newbie,
--------------
"Im sorry but this just bugs me to see ppl jumping around wasting all there energy trying to sike their opponents out only to have someone who is skillful and efficient beat them as if they were nothing ( what a waste of training and talent)."
-------------
Where exactly did you see these monkeys in gi's?
If this was an interpretation of a trial class were you misunderstanding something? If not I would definately say that this is a school you should think twice about. Finding an art that meets your specific needs and truly educates should be a primary goal. If learning how to fight is the object then find a fight club that does a lot of fighting, they do exist. Even more so get yourself into something like the Ultimate Fighting Challenge where you can really test your skills without having to hire someone to try to beat you up out of a local bar. Enjoy!

newbielives

02-Jun-2002, 09:57 PM

Please give me your definition of siking thomas so i can better show my point on your terms

for the comment "The fact that you do not react to a yell or a fake punch I question. i have been doing this for 20 years and I still sometimes can't tell the difference a punch or fast grab or a fake. Martial Artists are trained that in order "to beat action one must meet it." You must train differently because i can tell the difference. I dont know what else to say other then that.

to andy murray, Instead of correcting my grammer please ask questions of what part you dont get so i can answer you. I dont care if you agree but i would like you to understand my point and maybe you can even change my mind.

Andy Murray

02-Jun-2002, 10:33 PM

to andy murray, Instead of correcting my grammer please ask questions of what part you dont get so i can answer you. I dont care if you agree but i would like you to understand my point and maybe you can even change my mind.

It seems that you are possibly the one who is getting offended Newbie. This was not my intention. If you wanted correction on your grammar or spelling, then I'd respectfully suggest that you looked somewhere other than a Martial Arts Forum.

I have spent quite some time trying to extrapolate the issues you are trying to raise in your posts.

I was suggesting that there are people here on Martial Arts Planet of Vast experience, and people who are just getting started. That is what we all like about the site, because we all learn from each other.

When you post assuming knowledge that other people don't have you alienate them. When you post assuming that other people have knowledge, and go on to make a point based on this, then you alienate another group.

It's not easy, I have made this mistake many times myself. Best to assume that everyone has good intentions, and wishes to get on together.

There is a lot of information in the replies you have already received. Nobody likes to repeat themselves, so read other peoples posts carefully.

:) Andy:)

Burple

03-Jun-2002, 12:06 AM

Iffn shumwun wos sikking on me, oi wood be vewwy vewwy miffed offs oi can tell yoush!

LilBunnyRabbit

03-Jun-2002, 07:30 AM

Originally posted by newbielives
Pretend i fight efficiently against someone who uses siking as one of his tactics.

Incidentally I think you mean psyching.

Pretend my opponent tries too look tough(he is actually trying to look tough without it being natural for that situation) Mental clarity is not at 100 percent, it may take very little mental effort to look tough but some mental resources will be loss while trying looking tough.

Who said that looking tough was a psychological tactic? Unless you're facing someone who's never really fought before its not worth the effort, most people know that appearances mean nothing. Best thing to do is try to look afraid and harmless.

Pretend my opponent now tries to fake me out dancing around me doing fake punches and head sways. His purpose for doing that is to make me nervous about where he will be striking. However this will use much or little of his physical resources depending on how healthy he is and maybe open him for strikes while being off balance in movement transition.

Apparently you've never had someone throw a feint then instantly follow up with another technique, or had someone throw them as a dual technique. Feinting is incredibly useful so long as its not overused.

My reaction to that will be an examination of his body position, his distance and a martial artist's intuition on telling if a punch is being committed or not.(There probably is a logical explanation for this intuition, as to how the mind examines body posture, but it sure does feel like intuition). This examination becomes a reflex with training and loss of mental clarity is at a minimum if none at all. My loss of physical resources will be zero or be very minimal rotating to keep him in front as he move around me. This is only if I even choose to rotate and I may not have to at all.

But how can you tell if a punch is committed in a street fight when on average someone is approximately half a foot or so away from you? Just because they're close to you doesn't mean it's going to be intended to hit you, its easy to throw a feint punch and then kick to the knee, but apparently you don't want this ability in your arsenal either.

Pretend my opponent ki-ai’s (hehe LOTS OF PPL talking about this situation) with no intent to attack. He does this to intimidate me to show he is healthy and strong. By doing the ki-ai, he may gain adrenaline that uses up the blood from his brain putting it into his body increasing his physical ability but lowing his mental resources. Because ki-ai tense the stomach muscles for a moment it also takes up physical resources.

As I said before , apparently you've never had someone perform a full-volume kiyap directly into your face. Try it sometime.

If he did the siking well then I would not been able to pull of a offensive move therefore my advantage would come in the long run as I would have won the game of physical resources if both of us were of same physical ability.

Actually if he did the psyching well you'd already have lost through trying to block feints and getting caught by the followups, through the fact that you'll have been thrown by his kiyap. And through the fact that he'll have been willing to use every weapon in his arsenal to end the fight, whereas you'll have been effecient.

newbielives

03-Jun-2002, 10:16 AM

to ckd

If it was my good day i would have to say feints would not work on me. That is about i can say and any bodies who says do this then do this or do this then do that, I dont know exactly how to counter any of those remarks beside saying they dont work on me because they dont (of course on my good day). Everyone practices differently and if you think it will work then go ahead but with my practice i believe it will not work on me from training experiences.

At the same time u also say stuff like "you can follow up with a this motion and that motion". I was assuming that you would know i am also accessing the situation to fight him as well and will not just standing there waiting. Each motion is separate in my mind and i if he does through a real strike after his fake then so be it and i will judge it in my terms.

YOu can skipp this part and move down to the next paragraph if you dont want to read my thinking process in a fight when someone does a fake on me.

One example would be, pretend he does a fake punch( i wish i could show you this in person because i will probably be bad at explaining this). If i see that its a fake punch then I assess his body posture by the way his body is position. He only a few imediate moves that can reach me before i can even notice them. These are the ones that i have to worry most about. I can put my body posture in many ways to eliminate a most of his immediate movements. i do this by narrowing down his immediate movements by either backing off or put my gaurd where it can get in the way of his immediate strikes till he has one strike left. since he has only one strike left i know exactly where he will be hitting which could 1 or 2 targets. its usually 1 target that is left unless he some how trapped you. These kind of strikes may seem very random to a newbie but are very predictable with some training experience. Of course this thought process is almost reflex and is done about 15 - 30 times faster then a blink.

by the way how did he get so close to pulling off the ki yap in your face?
if that happens and i didnt knock him down then he must have already been in range to beat me meaning his kiyap was useful in increasing his striking power. This, i would not consider a siking technique.

Andy murray
yes i was offended because everyone of your lines ended in "!"
it is really hard to post your opionions with out offending others but if i had to be nice to everyone then i might as well keep my opinions to myself. I understand what you are trying to say on my assumptions but i cant say it any other way.

Maybe i should write the targeted audience and what credentials they should have before reading my post hahahaha.

Andy Murray

03-Jun-2002, 10:26 AM

yes i was offended because everyone of your lines ended in "!"

Ah.

In that case I will try and resist the temptation to use exclamation marks in future correspondence with you!!!

:D

Thomas Vince

03-Jun-2002, 11:43 AM

I shall also refrain!!!!!
Your knowledge of a fight and kinesiology is at a super human level. Good luck in your quest.

LilBunnyRabbit

03-Jun-2002, 12:17 PM

Just a few more things I want to say then. You must have a very big guard to be able to prevent someone from doing any more than one strike. Also thinking about a fight in terms of seperate movements can be a severe mistake, its easier to think of it in terms of a continuous flow of movements on both sides.

Incidentally I've been training for around ten years now and can assure you that if you're fighting someone even half-way good then the difference between a feint and an actual technique is only that the feint is pulled short so that it doesn't hit you.

Most street fights take place with the participants at less than a foot distance, usually because one of the people involved has stepped in to try and intimidate the other. If you're telling me that you knock down anyone who comes within a foot of you then I'm amazed you haven't been arrested, and I pity anyone who tries to give you a hug.

newbielives

03-Jun-2002, 11:22 PM

To thomas vince i take your comment as sarcasm but the truth is it can be done. Do you think of how every muscles in your body works just to walk? This ballacing act called walking is quite difficult to simulate on a computer but still we are able to do it with out really thinking about it. If you have train enough the way i have been taught then understanding how someone will react by just their posture is very real. When i say posture i am talking about very subtle things(this does not only mean big swinging punches that are telegraphed a mile away but also, the not so obvious strikes.)

the truth is this is really hard for me to explain because i do it naturally and never really thought about how i did it until my recent post.

ckdStudent You have been training ten years probably very differently then i have. I can assure you it will not work on me when im having a good day. Taking andy murray's advice i will say my post are for a selected audience and if you can't phantom someone being able to see a fient of any sort then you should not bother reading this forum. Not because i dont want you reading it, but because you cant get pass the point of me seeing a fient. so everything else i say is basically useless to you.

by the way with your comment :

"Most street fights take place with the participants at less than a foot distance, usually because one of the people involved has stepped in to try and intimidate the other. If you're telling me that you knock down anyone who comes within a foot of you then I'm amazed you haven't been arrested, and I pity anyone who tries to give you a hug."

Are you saying you cant tell the difference if someone is going to give you a hug?( i also dont hug guys off the street that are strangers to me and look like they want to bash me in. So its ok if some wierdo really wants to hug me and i dont let them, i wouldnt want to hug him anyways:P)

I dont bother doing staring contest with ppl who want to fight me because its pointless to me. If they try i will just move out of distance.

This could be a whole new topic to itself but my rule for my self is never to strike first(of course unless you are saving someone) so in other terms i dont beat ppl up because they are in front of me.

LilBunnyRabbit

03-Jun-2002, 11:36 PM

Apparently you've managed to miss the point of my comments. I assure you that if I throw a feint you will be taken in by it. There, now we've both assured each other of our abilities. The irresistable force meets the immovable object. Actually if I throw a feint then I know that you cannot guarantee to see that it is a feint coming. When I throw a feint I throw it as a technique, as though it would connect, and I can choose to throw a full technique if I wish. Usually though I don't, instead following the feint with another technique.

The hug thing was mere sarcasm, an example to suggest that people who come that close to you might not be planning to fight you, and then you break their nose.

Oh, and I see what you mean by very select audience. The audience of telepaths and superhumans would seem to be the most likely.

CyCloNe

04-Jun-2002, 09:19 AM

Wanna see my left hook feint followed by a right cross?

Wanna see it again? :D

Newbie, without being rude I think you underestimate virtually every fighter out there other than yourself. I know pro fighters that still after years in the circuits dont know the difference between a feint and an actual strike until of course it either connects or doesnt.

The bottom line is you should not disclude anything, every move your oponent makes is a threat. So you simply keep reacting and acting, its just one fluent dance. In my opinion you dont get time to decide, 'Oh theres a feint, right, I'll ignore that one, and hey, theres another fient, oh hang on this ones real, right ok, let me just parry this and then...' Erm, no.

Anyhow, just out of curiosity, when did the subject of feints get tangled with "siking" ? Are we talking before the confilict ? or are you atually talking about during the fight ?

/me throws a few more logs on the fire :rolleyes:

Freeform

04-Jun-2002, 09:23 AM

Well, if you think that psyching tactics are a waste of energy against high level opponents I'd personally have to disagree. I in no way pretend to be a high level combatant (I'm just too nice ;) ) but in my experience they work.

In my mind their are three types of psyching and thats the pre-fight, in-fight and post-fight, we seem to be just talking about the first two. Pre-fight tactics like trying to look big (peacock stance) make big 'manly noises' work well against the uninitiated but not so much against the seasoned pro. At this point 'the pre-fight' you have to be able to read your opponent and how calm he is. At this point of the confrontation only a complete nutjob wouldn't have some form of reaction as you should now (in knowledge/fear of confrontation) be getting a pre-fight adrenaline 'dump'. This shouldn't be confused with fear although at this point your on a knifes edge of fight or flight. How you control this is normally termed the swan/duck response (you look calm and smooth on the surface but underneath your got this major adrenaline rush that you need to do something with), and that is a brief synopsis of the pre-fight.
Newbielives is quite right in saying that the to the more experienced pre-fight psyches don't work. They should still get an adrenaline dump (or they're wrong in the head) but after a few scraps this is more controlable, hence the pre-fight doesn't work.

In-fight tactics: newbielives terms the use of a ki-ah as a psyche, well it is and it isn't. As has already been mentioned it helps generate power and resistance to injury (winding). If you don't wanna use it, then don't. Newbielives could you clarify a point for me, what in your views the difference between a feint and a psyche? Cause if you don't believe you can pull off an effective feint against someone then all I'll say is train harder.

Oh, and heres something I strongly believe in. There is no 'low techiques'. If your 'the best' then I will kick, bite, grab/tear testicles, call your mother names, steal your cat, pee on you whatever it takes. All I know is that I'm walking away.

Thanx for reading my ramble.

waya

04-Jun-2002, 09:37 AM

OK, this is all getting a bit egotistical lol. But since Newbielives has brought up his specific training, can we get a detailed background of this please?

Rob

newbielives

04-Jun-2002, 11:17 AM

all great replies

freeform it's my turn to ramble :)

to Cyclone
I probably get hit too hahaha because i have to say my concentration is not perfect, there are times when my mind wonders. Maybe thinking how nice the clouds look etc. This is why i always say "on my good day" i cant be beaten by a fient.

Your comment
"The bottom line is you should not disclude anything, every move your oponent makes is a threat. So you simply keep reacting and acting, its just one fluent dance. In my opinion you dont get time to decide, 'Oh theres a feint, right, I'll ignore that one, and hey, theres another fient, oh hang on this ones real, right ok, let me just parry this and then...' Erm, no. "

I totally agree with you saying a fight is a fluent dance where you keep reacting and acting. when i see a fient i simply ignore it as a threat so i dont waste energy moving back or blocking. I am not actually thinkiing about ignoring it, i am just staying in the same mental state since his fient didnt change the current situation in a defensive perspective( the situation can change lots in a offensive perspective). A better example would be : Pretend i am a blind man and i keep on walking straight. Only if i hit something do i stop and walk around it. A fient to me would be like car that passes by the side of me. the car did not touch me or effect me in any way so i walk straight. A punch to me would be when my foot hits a poll. My walking around the poll will be my defense.

I simply dont see the fient in my mind because I am only seeing threats. There really is not a lot of concious thought in this process if you train enough.

My point is its smooth like a dance because its not a think react, think react. its just reacting because everything is very natural.

We also might be thinking the same thing about combinations because i do think in combination but i consider examining the next move of the predicted combination as its own process.

THIS MIGHT BE QUITE FUNNY BUT I MAY HAVE THE DEFINITION OF FIENT WRONG LOL
i consider a fient like a fake punch that is in combination with a real strike eg. a fake left hook followed by a quick right hook
I also consider a fient to be a fake strike to back the opponent off.

If i am correct on what the definition of a fient is. Early in my training i use to use fients and they worked well in fact. It was in my later years did i stop using fients. This was the time i started training using traps. I notice in my progression as all the senior students including my self sparred with a very high level of awearness. When we started gettting this awearness it was really hard to fight each other without using traps. it would be like i was gonna punch but then i could tell you knew i was goin to punch so i didnt because i didnt want to waste energy. This would be done with us not even having to move or change posture. This was the time i knew fients were not goin to fool anyone who was good.

Something that you can do to feel your martial arts intuition is have a friend try to tap your chess as fast as possible. all you have to do is block it. you can have your hand right beside your chess. Do this with someone who punches fast so you know your not just seeing his slow motions. Every time you think he is goin to strike, block. you will start to notice that you can predict when he is goin to strike by instinct. He may only think about striking and you would have already moved to block, while his hand has not even flintched. When this gets really comfortable and you can start to sense what your intution feels like then close your eyes and do this. You will be wowed to find that you can block with your eyes closed by intuition alone.

My training of origin comes from the moutains of CHINA
just a joke

I trained in a martial arts club where they taught the five animal styles of southern shoalin. (ITS NOT KICKBOXING )

i have retired after five years due to disagreements with the new instructor. Currently i am doing kenjitsu (sword fighting) its so fun because i can really feel the pressure of being as perfect as i can. However it really is messing up my leg stances for hand to hand fighting hahahaha.

Oh yeah how did fients get caught up with siking? It's because i thought of it as also a movement i could ignore ( not see as a threat. ) Also by my definition(i could be wrong) i thought of fients as fakes use to back ppl off sort of like a sike.

newbielives

04-Jun-2002, 11:32 AM

hey ckdstudent i hope you still read this forum and please try the intuition excersise posted in my previous post. If it didnt work for you then you have probably done the practice wrong due to my bad descriptions of steps. This is a small example of how you can use your mind as a telepath in combat.

Thomas Vince

04-Jun-2002, 01:03 PM

Waya and Freeform I told you, i told you he is a Jedi! He is a Jedi!

LilBunnyRabbit

04-Jun-2002, 01:24 PM

The people trying to tap you thing? We train that anyway, but what if someone moves as though to punch, and then kicks instead. That's what I'd consider a feint, all the outward appearance of a genuine technique which somehow never materialises, used to get your opponent to block unnecessarily so that they are open. But since you're telepathic I guess you can 'sense' whether its genuine or not without waiting for it to hit you. Usually when we train with this people will deliberately shift slightly as though they are going to tap, and let you block, then tap you. That's a feint.

Incidentally the blind man thing may be a bad analogy, I can't help but get the feeling that if you wait until you've actually walked into something then its too late.

Traps aren't as powerful as many people think, I've had people trap one of my arms in sparring only to have me reverse the trap, or use my other arm to counter, or even a leg.

Another feint that I've used, successfully, is to flick your fingers towards someone's eyes. Instinct forces them to blink and that gives you a split second to throw a technique which they can't see coming.

khafra

04-Jun-2002, 02:57 PM

Your definition of a feint isn't too far off in my opinion, newbielives, just the spelling. And here's my unsolicited opinion on siking [sic] with feints or ki-ai's: If you're fighting a top-level fighter, and you're several levels below, none of your techniques are going to work unless you get really lucky. If you're both truly well-rounded, top level fighters, then your ability to make a feint look convincing has risen along with your other abilities. Therefore, it'll have about the same chance of working as a feint in a schoolyard scrap, it'll just look/sound different.

LilBunnyRabbit

04-Jun-2002, 03:32 PM

That only applies though khafra if you actually practice feints, if you stop practicing them because 'they're useless' then its fairly evident that they simply won't work when you do try them.

waya

04-Jun-2002, 04:53 PM

There is alot more to feinting than a fake punch. In swordplay, a feint is seeming to aim the blade at one point, then at the last second changing aiming points to strike elsewhere. I use the same techniques with both punches and kicks, such as beginning a kick as a front kick and at the last second throwing a round kick, or aiming a punch at the sternum or heart and striking the face. I am suprised you say Kenjutsu has a negative effect on your hand to hand fighting. Many systems use the footwork and postures from Kenjutsu in hand to hand fighting. Judo and Aikido are two major systems that do this.

Rob

newbielives

05-Jun-2002, 12:42 AM

to ckd if someone fakes a punch then kicks then i only see the kick as i am only seeing threats like i explained in the earlier post. I really dont care though if you underestimate me because you dont think it is possible to feel if its a fient or not. Maybe, NOT seeing the fake strike of shift is a better term.

I guess you could trick me with a fient if you REALLY DID want to strike me with your first punch but then decided not to in mid motion and changed to a different strike because then i would have precieve the first strike as a threat.

However i dont really consider that a fient, more of a change in strategy because it wasnt planned to be a fient but ended up looking like one.

Im no sword master so yeah fients work great. I use them in sword play but i hope i get good enough to start using traps which are more difficult. (by the way ppl may think traps are locking someone hand or sword but i consider it as a move that you do that takes the gaurd of your opponent because he is in a body posture that does not allow him to defend in time. )

newbielives

05-Jun-2002, 12:48 AM

Oh yeah my foot work for sword play is much differernt then my hand to hand style. When i did lots of hand to hand, one of my feet would usually be un grounded for a quick kick or change of stance. however in sword fighting i like beeing more grounded on both feet. This allows me to jab in with my entire body further(not faster just further) then if my back foot was lifted. I do however see lots of kendo practitioners keeping there back foot always lifted.

STASH

05-Jun-2002, 02:42 AM

Well, I'm glad to see that things are starting to calm down here...I was worried, everyone was gaining up on newbielives, I started feeling sorry for him.

LilBunnyRabbit

05-Jun-2002, 07:07 AM

Okay, last time I'm going to try and explain. If you don't see the feint, if you ignore it and discount it as not a threat, what happens if its not a feint? You cannot discount any movement an opponent makes, you have to react to every move they make and ignoring moves because you don't consider them a threat is a sure way to get hit.

waya

05-Jun-2002, 09:54 AM

Which Ryu of Kenjutsu are you studying? I change my footwork up alot, sometimes keeping them more stable, and other times using a flowing almost floating motion. Kendo is another planet to Kenjutsu. That is the sport side of swordplay, whereas Kenjutsu Ryu's are the actual older combat schools of the sword.

Rob

Freeform

05-Jun-2002, 04:04 PM

The idea of a feint is that it should look/feel like a 'true' technique, and at that moment of clarity (you know that the guys going to do it), he does something else. Thats my idea of a feint, practiced by 'the best' you won't know the difference (unless your better then you ain't fighting the best, are you?)

Thanx

newbielives

05-Jun-2002, 11:16 PM

Hahaha i didnt think many ppl were going to agree with me and im right, probably not even one person here agrees with me but i will keep fighting for my philosophy because i think it may help some.

to your comment freeform
"The idea of a feint is that it should look/feel like a 'true' technique"

When you say "feel" do you mean you were thinking of striking or do you mean tensing up your mucsles like you would if it were a real strike?

To me if intent was not there i would know on a good day.
And as i said in earlier post if it were a change of strategy in mid flight of your strike then you probably would hit me but i dont consider that a true fient.

I am studying Yagyu Shinkagae ryu and i do know that about kendo, but it is the most common reference that i can encounter outside of my school on sword fighting so its a good studie on some aspects.

LilBunnyRabbit

05-Jun-2002, 11:49 PM

Nice argument. If its a feint, you know, and if it hits you its not a feint. Well, have to say I can't argue with that one.

newbielives

06-Jun-2002, 06:56 AM

ckdstudent so is a fient two strikes or one strike?

Do you plan a fient or is it something you do in mid motion of a strike because of a change in decision.

So if a fient is a change in strategy then how do you train for a fient?

You basically cant because its inconsistant, its not something you can train for. Strategy however you can train for in a fight IE making decisions to do what is need next.

The reason i consider a fient (a fake then a real strike) is because that is something ppl do train for in the mirror.

i have always consider fients, something you can do without thinking. You can decide how you will do your fient then do it but its a plan not a change in decision.

LilBunnyRabbit

06-Jun-2002, 09:48 AM

A feint is any technique intended to distract rather than to directly cause damage. Two strikes can work, so can one. Its not a change of strategy because most people preplan a feint.

Freeform

06-Jun-2002, 03:53 PM

If I may continue ckdstudents line of thought...

A lot of Kendo base practices include feints. AIming at one body part and then striking at another is an integral part of the system. I too have an 'apparent' sixth sense when it comes to scrapping/sparring. I can sometimes tell when somebody is feinting. This 'sixth sense' is really my subconcious analysing information from my other senses and combining it with experience and intuition to give a 'probable' outcome. It isn't 100% accurate (Hell its probably barely 50% accurate) and if I were to fight 'the best' probably wouldn't work because they would be able to feint a damn site better than I could.

Unless you can mind-read then a feint (as executed by 'the best') will look and feel (or rather won't cause it won't touch you) like a real technique.

Thanx.

p.s I don't tense up my muscles before I strike cause thats just silly.

newbielives

09-Jun-2002, 11:01 AM

Thank you ckdstudent. You said it for me its pre plan meaning its not two real strikes. Your definition is also what i also consider a fient and that is why i dont think it will work on me because its pre planned meaning no intent is given on the fake(strike, shift etc).

The 6th sense is part of your sub conciousness but what explains you being able to do it with your eyes closed? I think its a bit of both.

Freeform you are right about kendo or sword play, fients are commonly used but some fients are better then others and some have similar philosophy to hand to hand and some have totally different philosophy to hand to hand. The ones that are similar to that of hand to hand i would also consider useless against someone good.

LilBunnyRabbit

09-Jun-2002, 12:33 PM

If by good you mean 'amazing telepath with supressed instincts' then yes, fighting somene good would make feints useless. Unfortunately telepathy doesn't exist, or if it does certainly not to that degree. My guess is that because you, nor anyone you've sparred wiht, has a decent feinting ability you've never seen them really used.

newbielives

10-Jun-2002, 04:51 AM

ckdstudent you must really think you are the best martial artist in the world or close to it because you can't imagine someone maybe having an advantage over you.

"Its all tricks I tell you" something it sounds like you might say if you saw something beyond you.

Darzeka

10-Jun-2002, 05:34 AM

*begins ducking for cover*

I have a mental image coming to me. A pot, no a kettle , ... ahhh its a pot and a kettle, wait they're talking, oh **** I lost it.

If you never use a feint and every movement you make is meant to be toward winning the fight then you will never attack, only counter attack. Therefore two people fighting like this will just stare at each other, knowing that if they attack then the other will block, therefore bein wasted energy.

If I attack with intent to make you block so that I can do something else that will hit, is that a feint? The strike was intended to hit you but with with intent to let it be blocked, changing the position of the fight.

Why are you talking about fighting the best? You will loose no matter what you do - by definition you can't win.

Everyone is susceptable to feints and psyching out, if you don't react to my feint I will make it a real strike and if I am good at fighting I won't be thinking about what I am doing only what you are doing and what I want you to do, letting my movments flow. This is how you decrease you reaction time and increase spontanaeity. A distraction from what you are doing helps - music, concentrating on your opponent whatever - if you aren't thinking, "this is what I'm doing", then you are moving naturally.
Thoughts will flow directly into movement, without the time consuming step where you think "do this technique now".

Then you can start getting into real mindgames, where you get your opponent so confused as to what you are going to do that they can't prepare any defense of counter. Try it. Let a simple strike go, then next time do it at a different speed, stop it short then from a different body position. If you only counter attack then you loose any control over the fight whatsoever. Accept the fact that not every strike will be a fight finisher, set your opponent up, get them thinking you are tryig to get him to leave an opening for a favourite shot. Let one fly but miss intentionally then act dissapointed. Set up another opportunity for another one then do something different.
This is all how you psyche someone out. Get them thinking about what you are intending to do, not what you are doing. You shouldn't know waht you are going to do because a fight is a dynamic situation and you should be able to react to the situation then act upon what would work best.
You should only move to make a strike that will end the fight once. If you are fighting a good opponent then you will have to make the opening, they will make it for you, if they do they aren't good. Practise it because nothing will work very well at first and if you help your training partners become better at it you will improve more because they will pose a bigger challenge.

Don't dissmiss it out of hand because every movement you make is affect the mind of everyone around you. The most of all is someone you are fighting. If they see you stumble they will more than likely attack, this is a psyche out if you are prepared for it. If your opponent leaves a hole in his guard is he merely incompetant or is a sinister plot to lure you into some move that he knows.
All these things will occur faster than thought (well conscious thought anyway) this is what people call instinct. I think it is merely a lower level of our mind that we have become so comfortable with that it is like breathing (because breathing is one of these most base levels). These instincts can be fooled by careful manipulation during a fight. Falling into patterns can be a deadly mistake but knowing the pattern you are falling into will be advantageous as when you break out of the pattern you will suprise your opponent. In turn make the pattern and break out obvious, make a pattern out of that then break that one.
You need to out think your opponent. Techniques can only be superior if they work so you will more than likely need to make them work. If you aprring partner is anything more than a punching bag you will have been using these techniques of "psyching" your opponent without realising it. Analyse your next sparring session and if you win see if it was through his mistake or yoursuperior technique.
If he made a mistake then you did not win - he lost.
If you won through good technique then he is crap or you made it work by "psyching him out".

Sorry about the tangetial nature of this post but thats just the way my mind works. If anything is unclear (i.e. the whole thing) by tomorrow I will have forgotten it and will probably have a whole new take on the idea that may prove less muddy.

Try to find one thing you did today with out thinking. Then see how and why you did not think about it (I do this with my driving. I drive lots and if distracted by music and talk then its all smooth with my gear changes but if I concentrate on it then it looses some of its polish).
Then apply this to your martial arts. Action with out thoughts will probably just be you removing all the unecessary IRQ's your mind puts on most things. Alcohol will do this but also with the annoying part of also removing most of your motor skills along with them.

newbielives

10-Jun-2002, 07:47 AM

Good post Darzeka but i never said anything about only countering. I totally understand the punch that is meant to get something going so someone can start making mistakes but i dont consider that a fient.

You say you can change your fient into a real strike if i dont do anything but i seriously think i can pick that up and im pretty sure it wont be the smoothest of transitions either.

I give up fighting ppl on here because its pointless
There is always something that someone can say to counter because everything you are trying to get across can't just be explained in words. The only real test is to sparr or fight in real life to prove a point or atleast demonstrate it in person.

LilBunnyRabbit

10-Jun-2002, 08:48 AM

The best? Why thank you very much.

I'm not bad, but I know that there are people who could walk on me without even breaking a sweat, I've sparred with some of them. What I don't try to say though is that I've got a perfect defense against feints, which apparently you have. I can understand things being beyond me, I've been kicked across the room by a 6 stone girl before, I know my limits. You don't.

Besides, you're the one claiming to be telepathic, yet somehow saying that no one is infallible makes me arrogant?

Freeform

10-Jun-2002, 12:45 PM

Darzeka, kinda what I've been saying, but in more words ;)

I know something I did what out thinking today... sleep! (will this help improve my martial skills?)

Thanx

Darzeka

10-Jun-2002, 12:53 PM

Newbie I think you miss the point about the feint changing into a strike.

If I purposefully make the feint obvious I still have my hand, foot, elbow whatever that much closer to you that even though the transition may not be smooth it can still hit you. The feint will then have worked.

A feint is defined as 1) a false apperance; pretense. 2) A movement made with the purpose of deceiving.

You could feasibly start using solely one or two types of punches to convince your opponent that they are the only ones you will throw. Then kick him, throw a different punch or go for a grapple. That is a larger scale feint - using patterns (see above post).

Check your scope on what you mean by feint. It is not just a fake punch but anything that will try to deceive or trick. this is also called stratagems.

newbielives

10-Jun-2002, 11:44 PM

If your body is in a postiton that has the threat of striking me before i can block then i will change my gaurd to acommondate that or i could do a hundred other things but that is one of them.

This is the reason i think posting here is pointless because you have underestimated me and counter with that comment. Unless i had said everything i would possibly have done in the last post you can always say" well i could do this then".

waya

10-Jun-2002, 11:46 PM

newbielives, I believe you have done the same in underestimating the rest of us lol

But debating the could have done or could do points is one of the best ways to learn is it not?

Rob

STASH

11-Jun-2002, 02:53 AM

I'm having a lot of fun reading this, I have my own biased opinion on this matter which I will reveal later. But before this goes any further I want to congratulate you newbielives, you've managed to hold your ground for six pages! All these people speaking against you, yet you stick to your opinion, good job.

Darzeka

11-Jun-2002, 03:11 AM

Freeform try to fight after not sleeping for three days.

It will improve your martial arts in that if you rest you will feel better the next day adn be revitalised, etc, etc.

And besides you know you are thinking when you sleep don't you? You only remeber dreams that make sense, a random collection of thoughts will not register as a dream so if you say you don't dream all you are saying is that there was no structure to your thoughts while you were sleeping.

And newbielives what I was saying is that if you don't react to my feint ( i.e just stand there ) then I will use the position I'm in to try something. If you change your stance, guard whatever then the feint has worked. You can't protect everything at once. It isn't humanly possibly without a full suit of body armour.

So you see my feint may not be designed to actually do anything other than get a reaction from you adn if you see a spot that I have made vulnerable and move to cover that you make another hole somewhere else. Its like chess. It will be the spot that you least expected to be hit and by the last technique you thought of having to defend against. Otherwise you would have expected for that to happen, covered against it leaving another hole open.
If you know your opponent you will roughly know what they are good at but with a random opponent they may do something you have never thought of and there is no way you can know every possible way they can attack you.

You need to be aware that the avenues for attack are infinite. Our minds are finite so we cannot understand the infinite - only be aware of it and plan accordingly.

newbielives

11-Jun-2002, 06:24 AM

nice, I C what you are saying but there is always a balance. Either you are leading or i am. If you are the one leading then sure when you move to that fient position that leaves me open. However it also makes you open and if i was the perfect fighter(i am not haha), i would have enough awearness to strike you at your oppening when you do a fient because you also opened your self. The only difference is i would have struck with out hesitation while you decide on changing it into a real strike.

IE i am not open when you go into that fient.

If you are strictly talking about giving me a opening so you can trap me then sure, but you can do that a number of ways so i dont think learning fients for that purpose is worth while.

If you were doing a fient just to get the chess pieces moving then i must say the chess pieces will move with two novice players. However, I can only see the pieces moving for good players is if fient were not fients at all but instead real strikes that posed real threat.

If you are thinking about leting go of the strike when you see the block coming to conserve energy since it would be futile to spend so much energy on a punch that will be blocked anyway, then i think you have a real strike mistaken for a fient.

Darzeka

11-Jun-2002, 07:09 AM

You are assuming again that all your "instinct" actions are happening faster than your opponent's.

Your strike at my opening will in turn be blocked/trapped/evaded or something. This is where the fight dynamics will come into play. When you strike you also become open. You can't say for sure that the person will be phased by being smacked in the face. He may let you do this so he can hit you in turn - a sacrifice blow if you will.

And we know that many fights will finish very quickly - or at least they should - unless it is a sparring match / tournament arrangement where you will fight for a specified time. You should be able to fight like this and recover energy while still fighting. Here is a fitness problem for many people. Many Muay Thai fights and boxing matches are like this and by the third round both participants are breathing heavily and their techniques become sloppy. I think many of these people don't concentrate on their fitness enough.

Practise can make anything good. If you practise your feints enough then they will become like breathing where they will happen without thought. This is where a fighter who can feint well will be at an advantage. In a fight you should be concentrating on what your opponent is doing. Then when an opportunity presents itself you should act without thought - through practise and thought the most appropriate technique (in your mind) will happen.

If you intend to not use feints then every strike/attack you make will be intended to connect thus when someone is fighting you then all they will need to do is block or evade, not try to see if the move is setting them up for anything.

I know that is an extremist argument and probably not what you will do but I was just saying it to show my thoughts on the complete dissing of feints.

As for psyche outs again I feel that ignoring them completely would be a mistake. As much of how you fight will come down to how your mind is working at the time (having good days and bad days). If you are completely relaxed and have nothing on your mind then you stand a good chance of reading the feints and how your opponent is fighting. On the same token your opponent may be having a good day. Will you just give up and say you couldn't have won? If you could do something to shake their thought patterns, get them thinking would it not improve your chances of beating them?
There will always be exceptions. I know I am one. I is very hard to get a reaction from me ( I got teased in high school lots so started ignoring everything ) now there is nothing that will insult me or make me angry.
But you can still throw people off by your body language, confidence in your voice, etc.

Don't dismiss something until you have explored all the possibilties

newbielives

11-Jun-2002, 08:32 AM

another great post

I got to reply :) because you do pose interesting points

My question may counter your points if you find the answer.

When do you strike someone? i strike them when they have a loss of consciousness. You probably experienced this yourself. To see someone lose consciousness is sort of easy but still there is some training and experience required. The hard part is learning to act on it when you see it, and to do it in time before they regain consciousness. This would be the only time i throw a strike without trapping to make sure my strike cannot be counter by a anothers strike. IE trading blows for blows.

I try to punch only when it is truly the perfect time that is why i dont waste too much energy. Not everything you do has to be a strike in a fight and you probably know that. Just because i dont do fients doesnt mean i cant put my gaurd right into yours and start trapping. Another big thing i do to save energy is to know when to cancel my strike if i learn that it is futile because its going to be blocked. In other words thai boxing is not the best example of the way i fight.

Its kinda funny because i think a big loss of their energy comes from trying to sike or fient using legs body and so forth. You are right though they do lose there energy because of what you said too but that is not what i called fighting with out fients for me.

About shaking ppls thought patterns

Like i said many times before, i am talking about fighting the absolute best where their thought patterns cant be so easily shaken.

Also i would like to say like a said many times before

If i were to teach a womans self defense course where you are learning to fight the average mugger, then I would totally recommend siking tactics.

LilBunnyRabbit

11-Jun-2002, 08:39 AM

Isn't striking someone when they've lost consciousness illegal?

Here's another way to look at it, going back to the whole 'efficiency' thing. A feint takes much less time and energy than a full strike, yet it can produce the same reaction. Now surely this means that not only are you set to follow up, but you have also saved energy which you can use later in the fight if it lasts that long.

newbielives

11-Jun-2002, 08:54 AM

ckd, do you seriously not know what i mean when i say a loss of consciousness?

Please read my last post ckd to answer your comment about efficiency

LilBunnyRabbit

11-Jun-2002, 08:59 AM

I know what you mean by loss of consciousness, but it was badly phrased. Technically a loss of consciousness is unconsciousness i.e. sleep or knocked out. What I think you meant was a loss of focus.

Incidently if you put your guard close to mine and try to trap, I'm gonna dislocate your kneecap with a kick.

Now, as for fighting the absolute best I have just one point. Its never going to happen. You are never going to fight 'the best' fighter because there's always someone better. If psyching tactics work against someone on the street then why are you so against them, so unwilling to use them or admit that they even have a use? If your feints don't work against someone then that person is almost certainly going to be better than you anyway, so you've lost nothing by trying.

newbielives

11-Jun-2002, 10:49 AM

PEOPLE PLEASE DONT WASTE YOUR TIME READING THIS POST MEANT FOR CKD

post like these

"Incidently if you put your guard close to mine and try to trap, I'm gonna dislocate your kneecap with a kick. " are so pointless

if you read my last post again hahaha you will find that i dont think fients are worthless

Thomas Vince

11-Jun-2002, 10:57 AM

I think you made your own point.
You feel that there is always something else that can be done and so it is wise not to generalize with such a broad topic.
When ever we have an opinion on something it is always in opposition to someone else's. It is rare when people like I have met on this forum can interact together and still remain e-friends. You can become a part of that two, but a certain respect level has to follow you along. People will build respect for you with the words you say because here it is all you have. Even this topic of siking could not proved in a physical scenario, because of the variables. I had mentioned the fact that there are two many variables to what you talk about and that is why, the variables that is, that you find yourself frustrated.
Dumb is a strong word but it does not mean the same thing as ignorant. Someone can be ignorant and still speak the truth.
Have you learned anything from this thread newbielives?

newbielives

11-Jun-2002, 12:25 PM

This post wasnt meant for me to learn anything. It was an opinion i wanted to share. I knew when i started this post that probably no one would agree with me and that is why i wanted to share my opinion. I could make a thread that everybody agreed with, but why? its like telling ppl something they already know.

I guess it would be nice to make friends on the net but its not my main objective.

Do i think this is a broad topic?
NO not at all.

when there is a misunderstanding its due to definitions not being clear, but i dont mind defining.

However when someone like ckd makes a comment like "Incidently if you put your guard close to mine and try to trap, I'm gonna dislocate your kneecap with a kick. " i find this pointless because he has not even taken into consideration of what i might have done. When i said" i could put my gaurd against your gaurd and start trapping" i am talking about one of the many things that you can do as an example of what you can do instead of striking. PPL like CKD who can not think pass examples annoy me because they totally underestimate ppl.

The variables you talk about are none for me because i am saying siking is dumb when you fight someone who is of great skill( i usually call them the best in other post lol). I get disprove a lot by ppl who think im talking about beating average martial artist so it may seem like there are lots of variables but there are not.
Which ever way you choose to fight someone of great skill, siking will always fail. That is my opinion.

LilBunnyRabbit

11-Jun-2002, 01:13 PM

So, because I used an example of what I might do to counter your example I can't think past them? Offhand I can think of twenty different ways to counter trapping, I simply used the first one that came to mind as an example, its not the only thing that I would do.

The reason that I disagree with you is because you keep using absolutes, saying that things will always fail, or are always useless. There are never any absolutes.

Melanie

11-Jun-2002, 02:13 PM

Well newbielives, you may not have learnt anything new from this thread but I certainly have!

This weekend I am attending a groundfighting and grappling seminar with a few people from this very forum. As I do Shotokan (traditional) there isn't much call for groundfighting within the techniques that I have been trained in so far, however, in a hope to open my eyes to the wider aspect of martial arts I hope that it might improve my current understanding of my own martial art by attending this.

Its great that you have stuck to your guns about this particular thread and have been able to back yourself up on every occassion. Everyone has to base their own opinions on their own experience. Talking about things that you would like to do in a dojo isn't the same as doing it in a dojo. I guess what I'm trying to say (very abysmally) is that live and let live - everyone is entitled to their opinion and people can only formulate their opinions on what they experience.

Did that make any sense at all???

Darzeka

11-Jun-2002, 04:01 PM

I think that was a call to end this now.

Oh well, Newbielives just try to read some previous posts. Compare what you and CKD have said. They are very similar in the example lines. Obviously because it is text you can't see expressions, tone etc. Now when you read something you need to read it like you are reading an opponent.
Every sentance can have many connotations to it. Many aren't very good at turning thoughts into words( I'm really bad at it ) we just think to fast. Just like how your opponent in sparring may be inept or is excedingly clever in leaving that hole in his guard, the author of the post may have many reasons for putting the respose as they did. Before coming to the first, obvious conclusion and becoming defensive and superior try arguing the other side of the argument.

I think you also miss the point of the whole "pysching" thing anyway. You can create that loss of focus/consciousness through psyching. Even the best (talking high level of training and experience) MA's are human and will have lapses. Granted they will be small but anything that will help you win right?

And if you have learned nothing through this post then I'm suprised you are still into martial arts. Everything you do should help you learn something. Even if it is just that you realise something about yourself, your thought patterns and other things. You should be selfish in that you should look to learn whatever you can about anything that will benefit your MA from these forums. Even if you tear the other persons arguments to shreds you should still have analysed your arguments carefully and will have undoubtedly found a weakpoint somewhere.
That is what you should have learned from this thread.