Hapkido Sparring Taekwondo

[Korpy]

Ok, I'm in a possibly interesting situation.

My friend who is a black belt, and is an assistant instructor for Taekwondo has been pleading with me to buy sparring gear so we can fight before my class, after his.

I talked to my instructors and they said Taekwondo and Hapkido students can spar. Now besides me only being an orange belt and him being a black belt, what do you think of it?

I have going to have my first sparring match in a week or two.

What strategy should I use? Where should I strike? As he is a very good kicker, should I try going for more punching then kicking?

[JimH]

Is your friend going to allow you to try to close the gap,get inside his kicks,grab his limbs and take him to the ground?

If not then he wants a sparring partner (moving dummy)to help him in his art,it does nothing for your art.

If you want to just get up ,put on the gear and go into a kicking contest against a person who knows how to spar then I expect you will be getting a good beating/kicking.
(you just got your orange belt 4 days ago)

For your instructors to let you go at it,without proper training is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

You are to go to your first sparring match in a few weeks,how many matches has the Black belt been in?
(Your hapkido school goes to sparring matches?)

I would stay clear of this activity until you have time under your belt.
(My opinion)

[Sahbunim]

Once I was at a seminar with Dojunim Ji Han Jae and someone asked him about sparing his reply was.

"I teach you how to defend against grab,Yes?"
everyone replied "Yes"

He then asked "I teach you how to defend against punch?"
once again everyone replied "Yes" (obviously with a Dojunim added)

His next question was "I teach you how to defend against kick?"
"Yes"

His last statement was "Well what is sparing then?"

Have a think about it for a bit and it will give you the answer. My suggestion is that if you have to spar, do it but apply what you have been taught and learn as you apply it. Thats easily said by me but its my suggestion. I usually see that when HKD people spar against other styles their prev style comes out or they modify what they have been taught and it looks similar to the style that they are sparring against.

John

[Utotin]

If you are just gonna do stand up sparring I think you will likely do well, but I don't know there will be a huge difference in styles. You will likely punch more (if he is WTF style) and HKD has a more diverse arsenal of kicks. Back in the early 90's quite a few of our guys, including black belts, used to enter some of the big Olympic Style TKD tounaments in the LA area and did extremely well all the while sticking to HKD style kicking.

If you spar and he lets you use some throws and takedowns that will be very fun. Keep your hands up and don't just sit there and wait for the chance to execute throws/takedowns. You'll probably have to mix it up and make things happen as he'll likely be expecting you to wait for a chance to take him down.

Have fun!

[Korpy]

Is your friend going to allow you to try to close the gap,get inside his kicks,grab his limbs and take him to the ground?

If not then he wants a sparring partner (moving dummy)to help him in his art,it does nothing for your art.

If you want to just get up ,put on the gear and go into a kicking contest against a person who knows how to spar then I expect you will be getting a good beating/kicking.
(you just got your orange belt 4 days ago)

For your instructors to let you go at it,without proper training is a lawsuit waiting to happen.

You are to go to your first sparring match in a few weeks,how many matches has the Black belt been in?
(Your hapkido school goes to sparring matches?)

I would stay clear of this activity until you have time under your belt.
(My opinion)


No, it's gonna be supervised. They wont just let him beat on me like a dummy. It's gonna be point sparring I think.

For him it's practice, and for me it's just fun, and for me to improve my kicks.

[Utotin]

Hmm, more advice. Watch out for spinning kicks. Try to stay outside his kicking range until you're ready to move inside where you can throw punches or take him down a little easier and you'll either have to slip in between his kicks our fight your way inside to a clinch to get a throw/takedown. As you're a beginner you'll probably have trouble trying to catch his kicks/punches so moving in close will be the best way.

Once you are in close watch out for axe kicks and hook kicks.

Also once you decide to use a takedown/throw make sure you fully commit to executing it and don't hesitate. If you half ass the technique it will turn into a wrestling match and you will likely not be able to execute the technique at all.

Hope that helps.

[Korpy]

If you are just gonna do stand up sparring I think you will likely do well, but I don't know there will be a huge difference in styles. You will likely punch more (if he is WTF style) and HKD has a more diverse arsenal of kicks. Back in the early 90's quite a few of our guys, including black belts, used to enter some of the big Olympic Style TKD tounaments in the LA area and did extremely well all the while sticking to HKD style kicking.

If you spar and he lets you use some throws and takedowns that will be very fun. Keep your hands up and don't just sit there and wait for the chance to execute throws/takedowns. You'll probably have to mix it up and make things happen as he'll likely be expecting you to wait for a chance to take him down.

Have fun!

I'll remember to keep my hands up. I'm gonna ask the instructor if I can use and can't use.

[Korpy]

Hmm, more advice. Watch out for spinning kicks. Try to stay outside his kicking range until you're ready to move inside where you can throw punches or take him down a little easier and you'll either have to slip in between his kicks our fight your way inside to a clinch to get a throw/takedown. As you're a beginner you'll probably have trouble trying to catch his kicks/punches so moving in close will be the best way.

Once you are in close watch out for axe kicks and hook kicks.

Also once you dice to use a takedown/throw make sure you fully commit to executing it and don't hesitate. If you half ass the technique it will turn into a wrestling match and you will likely not be able to execute the technique at all.

Hope that helps.

It helps.

So I should stay in close so he can't use the majority of his kicks. He's an excellent kicker. I haven't see him punching, so that's a mystery if he's a good puncher or not. I'm a good puncher.

[Dave Boy]

Hey Korpy - at the end of the day, whose benefit is it for - and what rules are being applied?

If you're good friends, then go in there and practice your stuff - but learn from the experience. TKD sparring will certainly improve your footwork, kicking speed, combinations etc....although if you 'play' by their rules, its extremely unlikely you'll be able to use any low kicks, take downs etc...or be able to make use of your hands/elbows etc 'up close' (other than to the body).

Your friend may be looking at it from the view that as a HKDist (and a newbie at that), your kicks won't be coming from the expected angles he's used to from other TKD blackbelts with greater sparring experience....so giving him something else to think about.

I've personally done quite a bit of TKD and sparred in a number of classes and enjoyed every minute of it.

So go ahead - but be careful....AND KEEP YOUR HANDS UP!!!! :D

[American HKD]

Once I was at a seminar with Dojunim Ji Han Jae and someone asked him about sparing his reply was.

"I teach you how to defend against grab,Yes?"
everyone replied "Yes"

He then asked "I teach you how to defend against punch?"
once again everyone replied "Yes" (obviously with a Dojunim added)

His next question was "I teach you how to defend against kick?"
"Yes"

His last statement was "Well what is sparing then?"

Have a think about it for a bit and it will give you the answer. My suggestion is that if you have to spar, do it but apply what you have been taught and learn as you apply it. Thats easily said by me but its my suggestion. I usually see that when HKD people spar against other styles their prev style comes out or they modify what they have been taught and it looks similar to the style that they are sparring against.

John

Greetings,

I think this is correct!

When you practice the HKD techniques correctly and for a long enough time they become truely useable, they work in sparring or self defense it makes no difference at all.

We did a fair amount of sparring in my school, but not as much as TKD, however when a very good buy cocky Ni-Dan in TKD joined our school once he wanted to sparr everyone to show off his great kicks (and they were very good) I was one of the first ones to spar him I was a red belt at the time.

I would easily catch his leg and throw him etc. etc., this guy was totaly dumbfounded.

My point is I learned these skills from normal HKD training NOT sparring per se.

Sparring has it's time and place but were not training in olympic TKD or Karate.

[wild_pitch]

Sparring has it's time and place but were not training in olympic TKD or Karate.

and that time and place is as often you can so that you can learn to effectivly use what you learn in the open field.

[Kwajman]

We had several hapkido students in our TKD class and the sparring worked out really well, I think they blend in quite well in a TKD setting.

[Thomas]

In my opinion, practicing your Hapkido skills against a TKD guy in an environment where it is (1) supervised by the instructors, (2) follows clearly set rules, and (3) is intenbded as a learning tool, not a compeition match is excellent

You wil gain insights on how to deal with a live, moving opponent who wants to hit you. The learning possibilites are endless for both of you. Here's some rules I recommend:
Round 1: Let's allow kciks and strikes above the waist (like WTF TKD)
Round 2: Let's allow all kicks and strikes (low, mid, high)
Round 3: Let's allow controlled sweeps and grabs
Rounds 4-6: repeat 1-3
Round 7: Let's open it up with control to allow everything.

Most Hapkido schools don't do a lot of sparring or free fighting, but there are lots of benefits to be gained from doing some, especially under the direction of an instructor. Have fun and learn!

[American HKD]

and that time and place is as often you can so that you can learn to effectivly use what you learn in the open field.


Greetings,

The trouble is a street fight is not a sparring match and is most cases never resembles one, sparring tournament sytle is how most schools train that won't help much in my opinion.

HKD sparring with takedowns, throws, etc. is a little more realistic because of the grappling aspect, but it's still not a street fight.

I don't think we can really train for a street fight the UFC comes closer but still not a street fight.

Timing and distancing can be good lessons taken from sparring, they can also be aquired standard HKD training if done correctly.

So I believe sparring as some limted value because of the limitations we need to put on it for safety sake.

[Shrfu_Eric]

What kind of sparring .. is the first question.
We all know that TKD can kick like the wind.
How do you fight? Don't change your way just adjust.

Have fun and do it somewhere where no one will get sued or upset if there's an injury.
You're both MA'ists you should have some control and respect ...especially if you're friends.

It's great fighting against others from different systems. It helps you see what you need to work on.

Good luck ... Be well

Eric

[wild_pitch]

hmmm well lets not derail this thread we have been through this discussion before and we disagree.

i would just like to say that the kind of *free fighting* we do has very limited rules. imho you quickly realize applying something in the open field against someone who is also trying to hurt you is a whole different game, and it is not something you can get better at without practice.

Greetings,

The trouble is a street fight is not a sparring match and is most cases never resembles one, sparring tournament sytle is how most schools train that won't help much in my opinion.

HKD sparring with takedowns, throws, etc. is a little more realistic because of the grappling aspect, but it's still not a street fight.

I don't think we can really train for a street fight the UFC comes closer but still not a street fight.

Timing and distancing can be good lessons taken from sparring, they can also be aquired standard HKD training if done correctly.

So I believe sparring as some limted value because of the limitations we need to put on it for safety sake.

[Shrfu_Eric]

free fighting ... is one of the best ways to practice.

Or maybe it's a crazy canuck thing eh?
lol

Awesome !!!

eric

[TheGnome]

I have only done some limited stand up sparring mostly because I would get my butt kicked...bad. In Judo and Jujitsu I have done a ton of randori. I've even done some Mixed Martial Arts sparring where we wore various amounts of safety gear. When going against a TKD or other striking artist I would close the distance and go for a clinch. If I could get in a throw great, if not then an "ugly takedown" would be OK. TKD guys seem to rely on high kicks which makes them fairly vulnarable to leg throws such as morrote gari. Thomas could tell me if I am wrong. From there it would depend on where we wound up, and weather we were allowing striking while on the ground. As a Hapkido student you learn some pinning techniques as well as joint locks/chokes. Most guys that train soley in the striking arts seem to be pretty limited in that area (although there are always exceptions, so never make assumptions). Have fun with the sparring, just make sure the rules aren't stacked in his favor.

[JimH]

The point of sparring and the sport habit it creates over street encounters aside.

Korpy has what 3 months in HKD ?and he will be sparring a black Belt,seems a bit unfair to me.

Why isn't this sparring against a person of similar time in Hapkido?

the rules of the sparring will be to the benefit of the TKD guy so who does this sparring match benefit?

It seems to me that a person who has just learned a few kicks, a few parries or blocks and a few methods of striking ,what chance does he have to do a good showing?

Yes spar if you must, or if you want, but do so against a person of the same or slightly higher rank,not go against a person with a minimum of ten times the training time you have put in and has sparring experience.

How long will the match last,for 3 points?
(If so it will end quickly)

What is allowed or not?

If Korpy's opponent goes head hunting will Korpy remember to keep his hands up?

Korpy what kicks do you know and how well can you deliver them?

Do you know how to move off line or out of his range and then get back in to score for yourself?

This is a one sided event and I see no point in it,unless the Black belt was going to go slow and easy as a training tool but apparently that is not what this sparring session is about.

[Shrfu_Eric]

They seem to be friends ... so why not spar... make the rules fair to both and don't go full out yet. Have some fun. Try his point style then try sparring with throw and takedowns with grappling or whatever you're use to !!!

[TheGnome]

Eric you must be right. I live just a few miles from the Canadian border, so the crazy canuck vibe must make it across the St. Lawrence. Maybe its all the snow.

[Shrfu_Eric]

Oh yeah !!! quick tip ... keep your stick on the ice and don't eat yellow snow !! Or if you're in the industrial area ... green,black,grey,multicolored toxic snow !!!

[shadow warrior]

Korpy:

I don't know how much free fighting you have done, but I would ask these questions.

Why would a TKD black belt in your school want to spar with someone with very limited HKD experience?

If he wants to learn the pain of HKD in application why is he after you instead of your instructor??

I have retreaded many TKD black belts (ITF, WTF up to 3rd degree) who after a few minutes engaged with a middle level HKD student lemented techniques they thought 'unfair' (leg and arm striking with hands and feet, sweeping, throwing, choking, not to mention the dreaded twisting of any limb presented).

If your TKD BB friend wants some experience free fighting HKD ask him to ask your teacher to show you how it is done.

It is also a great opportunity to watch your buddy get taken apart and see the effectiveness of the HKD style.

TKD is primarily a sport as we know. Canting before kicking is an open door to kick defenses of all kinds!

I think you should wait until your instructor sets the stage for inter style sparring by demonstrating HKD in action within the rules he defines.
If he doesn't seem interested, find a new school! Leading by example is the true way of instruction!

IMHO

[Shrfu_Eric]

Sparring between friend / systems is a good thing. If you woop him ... good stuff. if not learn from the experience.

It's all good unless your friend has a hidden agenda. Like he's going in trying to kick your butt. Have someone who is a higher belt/level than you watch, get their opinion and if your friend does have a hidden agenda or is simply being too rough for you. Ask you peer to show how it's done. Let him wipe the floor with your friend.

good luck again.

[firecoins]

Doesn't Hapkido include kicks and strikes similiar to TKD? If so than this if fine.

Keep your hands up.

[Blade3]

Korpy, as long as he's not trying to hurt you then there's nothing wrong with sparring with him. Also remember this: When he moves you move & do your best to never retreat backwards in a straight line. Have you been taught how to catch kicks yet? Or how about sweeping a guy off of his feet (these are HKD stand up specailties) As long as he's not trying to hurt you then I think it'll be a good learning experience and by the time your getting your blue belt you'll be seasond in your skills against others.

BTW, What's up Danny it's Darrell that used to train with you guys over at Song's HKD in Culver City and when it was on Overland in W. LA. How's it been? I still have the video that I shot for the school 3years ago for my final project of film school (LAUGH)
I look at that thing now & shrug,my camera skills have grown by leaps & bounds since then and I'm currently working on a MA Documentary that I'm 100% sure is gonna stir some things up.
Take care man.

[TheGnome]

Ya I agree. The first statement made was "my friend". It doesn't really sound like some type of art vs art fight ala the old UFC's. My only question is about the owner/instructor. Sometimes two buddies going at it can get pretty disruptive to the rest of class. (Yes, I have at times been guilty of that so I am a big hypocrite by making that statement.) Maybe I missed it in the thread but what does your instuctor think?

I remember when we first asked our instructor about having a "fight night" outside of the school (in addition to frequent Judo randori), he didn't exactly encourage us, but didn't tell us no either. He just reminded us to focus on techniques and not just being brutal. I learned alot during those nights, especially when we started bringing in people from outside our program.

[Utotin]

What up Darrell! I read your thing in the check in and was wondering who you were. I remember when we filmed that- it was fun! I'm not with Song's anymore but I am still teaching. I'm glad to here you're still training!

[Korpy]

Damn, some of you take it too seriously. "Oh your instructor is letting you spar a black belt" blah, blah, blah, blah.

It's just for fun. He's one of my best friends.

My friend is not taking it seriously, and niether am I. It's just for kicks. (bad punch line)

And thank some of you for the advice. I'm thinking of getting in close and punching.

[Shrfu_Eric]

True enough, if you know takedown, sweeps and throws ... apply those and do some grappling and trapping to joint locks if at all possible. And of course let your hands fly.

Have a good time

[Ikken Hisatsu]

yeah im not sure why some people are making a deal out of the experience difference. 3 months into kickboxing i was sparring with guys who were at a pro level and had been doing it for 10+ years, you learn a lot faster that way and unless korpy has made som bad friends he isnt going to try and take his head off :D

best advice i could give is to stay inside, clinch, grapple with him, throw leg kicks, all the things he wont be used to from tkd sparring

[Korpy]

yeah im not sure why some people are making a deal out of the experience difference. 3 months into kickboxing i was sparring with guys who were at a pro level and had been doing it for 10+ years, you learn a lot faster that way and unless korpy has made som bad friends he isnt going to try and take his head off :D

best advice i could give is to stay inside, clinch, grapple with him, throw leg kicks, all the things he wont be used to from tkd sparring

That's cool Ikken, that you were sparring 3 months into kickboxing. lol my friend is nice, hopefully he wont kill me. :D

Thank you for the advice too, you always give good advice. I'm been practicing my shin kicks alot, I can clinch/grapple pretty good.

Ikken what do you think about getting close and throwing alot of punches?

[wild_pitch]

you DO remember the korpy and friends threads.. right? =)

you learn a lot faster that way and unless korpy has made som bad friends he isnt going to try and take his head off :D

[Korpy]

you DO remember the korpy and friends threads.. right? =)

Hahaha, wild pitch you're so funny. :rolleyes:

No he wasen't one of those friends. Also this will have real protective gear and supervision.

[Kombat]

You're obviously committed to doing this Korpy, so don't forget to let us know how it turns out when you take the plunge!! Have fun, take care, and good luck!!

Kombat

[JimH]

Korpy,
Did your friend ever want to practise on you before you started your 3 months of martial arts?

I am curious as you have developed some skills over 3 months,but not enough to fight your friend in and put up a good showing,so why didn't you two just do it before?

You have posted that you are going to get inside and try to punch him,you could have had that strategy 3 months, or more ,ago.
(He is your friend,surely you did not just decide to do it now because there will be instructors there watching and controlling it,he wouldn't get carried away,he's your friend)

Ikken posted after 3 months of Kickboxing he fought fighters with 10+ years,but he knew the same skills as they did,they just had time,you do not know this guys art,you do not know his skills and you do not know Hapkido skills,so you might has well have no training going into this fight.

When will this be taking place?

I hope you let us know the result,(I am sure you will),then afterwards let us know if what you desired from the art is still burning as bright.

Good Luck

[Korpy]

He did not fight before, before I started Hapkido. This will be our first sparing session. I never really thought of sparring him, but it recently came up, so I wanted to.

It should take place next week or the week after.

[hux]

Ikken what do you think about getting close and throwing alot of punches?


I'm not Ikken, but that's where'd I'd start based on your comment that you've never seen him punch. He's likely not used to somone getting inside and firing up the punch-o-matic. Try it and see how he reacts, but be ready to change the game plan if he starts slipping your jabs and hooking to yer liver;)

I don't see any problem with doing it as long as it's supervised. You're friends and he's got enough experience to control/pull the techniques to prevent injury. I'd love to have a similar situation.

[zac_duncan]

Go get him man, you'll get a feel for the strategy, worse thing that happens is that you get beat. It might be the first time, but it probably won't be the last and it's always good practice.

[Kwan Jang]

Korpy, have fun and learn from both what you do right and learn from what you could have done better. Far too many Hapkido students fall for the line of "we don't need to spar" IMO (before the war begins, keep in mind that I DO hold a master's ranking in hapkido, but am not limited to just the hapkido perspective/company line). There are limitations to sparring, of course, but it is a very valuable tool that far too many combative martial artists (hapkido, taijitsu/ninpo, ect) underplay.

By all means, if you have a good friend who is willing to be your guide in sparring and help you along, make the most of it. Make this a normal part of your out-of-class practice. When you learn the live application of set point control, timing, distancing, and making your training more "alive", it will be of enormous advantage to you. IMO, it will give an extra element to your hapkido training that many lack.

[JimH]

Kwan Jang,
I understand your point

Yes a degree of sparring is good but the reality is sparring sets up a mind set that does not equate or work in a real confrontation on the street,(maybe a prearranged ,agreed to fight that may emerge in a bar,but thats it)

it will not work or have anything to do with how to get through an instantanious in your face aggressor who wants you money or your life.

Sparring creates a give and take ,a set up and distancing which is not wanted nor doable ,especially for a hapkidoist.

Also I did not read where this black Belt offered to Mentor Korpy ,he wants to spar with gear on and has wanted to for a while,does that sound like mentoring?

Maybe I missed something,but these are my views on this.

[Korpy]

Thanks for all of your advice, it's all great.

I think I've got my strategy.

I will get in close, using mainly punches. Try to wear him down, maybe throw some shic kicks. I think if I get him tired, I'll start kicking alot. Also if he tries to punch, and I can catch it, I'll try a wrist lock.

[Korpy]

Kwan Jang,
I understand your point

Yes a degree of sparring is good but the reality is sparring sets up a mind set that does not equate or work in a real confrontation on the street,(maybe a prearranged ,agreed to fight that may emerge in a bar,but thats it)

it will not work or have anything to do with how to get through an instantanious in your face aggressor who wants you money or your life.

Sparring creates a give and take ,a set up and distancing which is not wanted nor doable ,especially for a hapkidoist.

Also I did not read where this black Belt offered to Mentor Korpy ,he wants to spar with gear on and has wanted to for a while,does that sound like mentoring?

Maybe I missed something,but these are my views on this.


I told you already, he doesn't just want to destroy me, he's my freaking friend. We want to have some fun, and wants me to get good at sparring.

[Shrfu_Eric]

Just go do your thang !!! Have some fun and enjoy yourselves. Punch, trap, clinch, take down (with sweeps or throws), grapple and submit him. If he throw high kicks .. which he probably will ... kick his standing leg from beneath him.

Keep us posted on how you did.

Be well.

Eric

[Korpy]

Just go do your thang !!! Have some fun and enjoy yourselves. Punch, trap, clinch, take down (with sweeps or throws), grapple and submit him. If he throw high kicks .. which he probably will ... kick his standing leg from beneath him.

Keep us posted on how you did.

Be well.

Eric

Thank you, and don't I will. I can't wait/

[TheCount]

As for the Belts belts don't always mean that much but probably he has much more experience and knowledge of techniques etc. than you so you may want to decline. Otherwise your other option is go for him, hope he doesn't kick you to death along the way and take him to the deck and use join locks etc.

[Korpy]

As for the Belts belts don't always mean that much but probably he has much more experience and knowledge of techniques etc. than you so you may want to decline. Otherwise your other option is go for him, hope he doesn't kick you to death along the way and take him to the deck and use join locks etc.

I'll do my best. I want to go for joint locks, punches, and shin kicks.

[Shrfu_Eric]

give him some cutting roundhouses with your shin right on his thigh / common peronial or a front ball to the thigh on top of his knee (lateral phemorial)*spelling may be off... sorry..

[Korpy]

That is part of my plan. I don't think he's ever felt the pain of a shin roundhouse.

[DCombatives]

It's always good to train with someone outside your art. Other styles approach the world with a different view. When I first started in TSD, I was convinced that everyone must fight like a TSD stylist. Then on a summer break I worked out with a friend who was learning BJJ. What an eye-opener that was; I think my elbow has never really been the same.

Another practical part of sparring someone not in your style is they will not just let you do your techniques. Too often in self-defense oriented arts practioners who have been conditioned they don't need to spar are also conditioned to "go" with a technique and be "a good training partner". After years of training, "going" with a technique becomes habit. Working with someone who will be uncooperative and throw techniques you may not be familiar with can be very beneficial to your training.

[hux]

so did this happen yet?

[Korpy]

Nope, not yet.

[Utotin]

Korpy, did this happen yet?