On Tittles, The Kris as weapon and understanding!

[Silat Ger]

Hello,
My name is Ger Giesen and I like to comment on several letters I read the last few weeks. I wanted to write about this earlier but my computer got infected so I’m a little late.
The message of my letter is : please be al little bit more like brothers and not like enemies.
I’m not in the habit of writing to forums and wouldn’t have done it if it was not for giving some more understanding to some mistakes I read.
First of all have to say I’m a student of Pendekar Sanders and proud of it. Although I’m a Pendekar Taruna in S.M.I. Pencak Silat and a guru in Kuda Kuningan Pencak silat I stopped doing this altogether in favor of Pukulan cimande Pusaka. This also brings me to my first topic: that of Grades.

There are a lot of different Silat styles in existence, no one is doubting that. So it is easy to understand there are a lot of different grading systems too. To be unfamiliar with one system does not mean that it is invalid, nor does it give excuse to put doubts in other ones minds about the rightfulness of using a grade or name.
In SMI silat there are only nine grades: Pratama taruna, Pratama madya, Pratama utama, Satria taruna, Satria madya, Satria utama and Pendekar taruna, Pendekar madya and Pendekar Utama. No guru whatsoever. Does this mean the title does not exist? Off course not.
In Setia Hati Terate these are the grades: Calon, Murid muda, Murid regu muda, Regu madya, Wakil kepala regu, Kepala regu, Calon pelath, assisten pelatih, Pelatih muda, Pelatih madya, Kepala pelatih, Guru (pelatih) muda, Guru (pelatih), Kepala guru, Maha guru muda, and Maha guru. No Pendekar whatsoever. Does this mean the title does not exist? Off course not!
So please be a little more tolerate towards one another if you see something you do not know or comprehend. Start by asking questions to the persons involved and do not start spreading doubts.

Next topic is about krisses. I’m a lifelong lover of krisses and even wrote a book about it that will be out somewhere in December. Read in the forum there are some who claim certain terms are not used in relation to the Kris. For example TANGGUH. Well I have several Indonesian (Javanese) books that say otherwise. In “Keris daya magic etc by Ki Hudoyo Doyodipuro” it says on page 2 as transcription of a picture of a kris: Kyai Sempono Bungkem. Dibuat th. 1300 Oleh Mpu Bekeljati – Tangguh Tuban/Majapahit Jaman.
In the “Ensiklopedi Budaya Nasional”on page 152. It says that when you buy a Kris you should know three things: Tangguh, Sepuh and Wutuh. Wch means were it came from, how old it is and if it’s not broken.
In the “Ensiklopedi Keris by Bambang Harsrinuksmo” there are 4 pages about the term TANGGUH. With examples etc.
Need I say more on the subject? I do not think so.

The next topic is about showing your Kris. It is true that in the far past it was not vry often done that you showed your kris in public. But times change and for myself even have taken pictures of the krisses of the Kraton guardians of Yogya. Who showed me their krisses with a lot of pride and were happy to see someone who was interested in them. These people live according to Adat but they showed me their Pusaka just the same. Just like every other Javanese met!

Next and last topic, and maybe the most important one. The Kris as a weapon. As I said earlier I wrote a book about the kris and half the book is about the kris as a weapon and the other half about how to use the magick involved in a Kris. The intro of the book I will print here, just as a part of one chapter which shows the kris is a real weapon. Not only in Sumatra, Malay or the Philippines but in JAVA as well, for sure.

Here Is the part out of my book:

What I miss in all these writings is a closer look at the Kris as a weapon. Only some writers go into this aspect of the Kris and then they only say that the Kris is a weapon made for stabbing and trusting. And then most of the time they write that it is not even a very good weapon for that either. David van Duuren writes in “DE KRIS een aardse benadering van een kosmisch symbool” (Dutch for “THE KRIS an earthly approach for a cosmic symbol”):
“Indonesië is het land van de blanke wapens, en vele kleine lijfdolken, sabels en hakmessen laten de kris in dodelijke effectiviteit ver achter zich.” (Indonesia is the country of bladed weapons, and a lot of small daggers, sabers and chopping knifes leave the Kris far behind in deadly efficiency.)
Even among practitioners of the various styles of Pencak Silat, the Indonesian art of self defense, there are a lot who think the same. They train with all kinds of different weapons but hardly ever with the Kris. To say the least this is rather strange if you take into account that the Kris was the weapon that the Royal Javanese men carried in their sash almost always or at least very often. Isn’t it illogical that in a country such as Indonesia where a multitude of different seizes and shapes of bladed weapons were and still are made, such an ineffective weapon would get a paramount place in traditional clothing, folklore and rituals?
Or is there more than meets the eye here? Is the Kris really as unimportant as a weapon or is this just the idea of people who don’t know anything of it’s true meaning? Because technically they only see the Kris as a variation of the simple dagger or knife? Or is it due to the supposed magickal power, apart from the fact if this really exist or not, that the Kris never gets his deserved place as a weapon?
From personal experience I know that a lot of people who believe in the power of the Kris don’t know how to handle a Kris and for that reason they prefer to stay away from it. A lot of heirlooms are neglected for this reason or even thrown away! It is also a fact that people are often so precarious with this holy object that they cannot see an effective weapon in it or to train with it. What I want to achieve with this book is to give people who are interested enough information, about not only the Kris as a weapon but also as a magickal charm, so they will know what they can and cannot do with their Kris.
I believe that this practical oriented knowledge will ad something to the already existing books and articles. In this way I hope to give the Kris his rightful place as a weapon (particularly in the Pencak Silat community) and in conjunction to this as the magickal talisman that it is also.


1. The Kris as a weapon in literature.

As I wrote in the introduction; in the existing (especially European) works there is hardly a mention about the Kris as a weapon. They do write that the Kris is a trusting type of weapon that was used in close quarter combat or during ambushes and for sneaky murders in times before firearms got in vogue. It had the reputation to be a weapon for sudden assault and much less for a fair fight. After the introduction of firearms this function was said to be replaced by the one of symbol of status and Pusaka (heirloom to which magickal powers are often attributed). Even in Indonesia itself there is not much written about the Kris as a weapon. But there are stories and books in which the Kris plays an important role. In the Babad Tanah Djawi (history of the land Java) we can read examples of the use of the Kris. In these writings we can find the afore mentioned functions. A few illustrations:

(On the road they were attacked by two robbers. Both where killed by Raden Bondang-Kedjawan, because they were stabbed by the Kris Malela)

(The pen with which he was writing, he threw down and he prayed to God. The thrown away pen changed into a Kris, that attacked by itself)

(On which he send one of the guardians of his Harem, Rangkoed by name, to kill soenan Prawata. Rangkoed went on his way. Arriving in Prawata he found the soenan in his palace. Soenan Prawata was Ill at the time and leaned against his wife. When he saw Rangkoed soenan Prawata asked: ‘Who are you?’ Rangkoed answered: ‘I am a messenger from arja Panangsang and have the order to murder you.’ Soenan Prawata spoke: ‘Go ahead, but let me be the only one, who you will kill, don’t let someone else share in it.’ Upon this Rangkoed trusted with all his might. The breast of soenan Prawata was stabbed trough until his back and the weapon also stabbed the breast of his wife. When soenan Prawata saw that his wife was wounded he quickly drew his Kris, named kjai Betok, and threw it at Rangkoed. Rangkoed was scratched by the kembang katjang of the Kris, fell on the ground, and died. Soenan Prawata and his wife also died.)

(Sultan Padjang quickly drew his second Kris)

(Ki Botjor was thinking: ‘I am not prepared to put me under Senopati, as long as I did not yet test his magickal powers. In the night Ki Botjor prepared himself to kill Senopati. He tried the sharpness of his Kris: on the cutting edge he laid some cotton, on which he blew, and the Kris went right through it.
Upon this ki Botjor entered the palace. Senopati was just eating and sat with his back turned towards the palace gate. Ki Botjor attacked him at once and stabbed at him. Senopati was not harmed and did not look back, he quietly kept on eating. The point of Ki Botjor’s Kris was dulled. Ki Botjor was tired, and he fell on his knees on the ground, his Kris stood in the earth. He was totally exhausted.)

( When he arrived in front of the king they threw the heads of Pasingan and Agra-joeda in his direction. Pangerang Alit quickly drew his Kris and stabbed in both heads with it.)

(Pangeran Alit was furious and stabbed the dipati of Sampang his Kris in the neck, so he died. The kris of the pangeran was called Setan-kober. When the people of Sampang saw their lord lying dead in the aloen-aloen, they all attacked pangeran Alit. They stabbed at him with a lot of weapons, but he did not have any hindrance from it. A lot of people from Sampang were killed by the pangeran. Because pangeran Alit got tired, he touched himself with his own Kris and got a scratch on his thigh, as big as a lice. Pangeran Alit died.)

From these examples one can deduct that the Kris is indeed a stabbing weapon and that the Indonesian people attribute magickal powers to it. Even the use as a weapon for ambush is clear. But furthermore you can see that in Indonesia they do consider the Kris as a weapon that can be used in a fair fight and even against multiple opponents. It also seems possible to draw the Kris very fast in case of an emergency, and to thrust hard enough to go right through someone. That is about all that can be found in all the examples of the use of the Kris in a confrontation as written down in the Babad Tanah Djawi.
So to find more about the Kris as a weapon one should not search in the existing kris-liturature or in classical Indonesian writings. Maybe in books about martial arts? Donn F. Draeger attributed a relatively large number of pages of his book “The weapons and fighting arts of Indonesia” to this dagger. Some quotes.
In Indonesia, by reputation, there is no sanguinary a bladed weapon than the Kris, that strangely shaped, double-edged dagger designed primarily for thrusting. The Kris is at once a weapon, an ornament, and an object of cult.
He goes on…The Kris is a very real weapon. It can be said to be the national weapon of Java.
…The Kris is used in thrusting fashion, straight- line jabs from close to the body with the elbow kept bent; if the arm is fully extended on the thrust, the Kris cannot be delivered with it’s best efficiency. It is thus a highly suitable weapon for quick stab-and-thrust actions in close combat in confined places.
Mr. Dreager was an authority in the field of oriental martial arts and was highly graded in a lot of them. The fact the he describes the Kris as a very real weapon is to be taken serious.

Here the part out of my book stops.

Another angle to look at this topic is by looking at classical Javanese dancing. Although I realize that in dancing they usually use lacquered leather krisses they fight a lot with them. There are even wods and names of movements in classical Surakarta dance that are directly related to the Kris. One example is the stance of: ANGKRING. The arms are held stretched forward in front of the chest, the right hand holding the kris above the dhadhap shield.
I could go on with this but the letter is already long enough I think.

I just wanted to show some errors in the letters I have read and to shed some light on various themes that were not really worked out right according to me. By doing it in such a long letter I hope to show that I am interested in seeing the whole picture. I hope everybody will try to do that next time they don’t know something for certain or have questions. Please don’t put someone down because you think you know it all. That simply impossible. And yes I don’t know it all either. I guess I will get a lot of mail from this letter but please keep in mind that I only wanted to get people to read, talk and otherwise COMMUNICATE by exchanging
meanings and knowledge without putting other people down.

Ger Giesen. The Netherlands.

[smiff]

WOW thats a hell of a long post.
gd read

Luke

[Kiai Carita]

Read in the forum there are some who claim certain terms are not used in relation to the Kris. For example TANGGUH. [QUOTE]

Salam persilatan Ger, welcome to the forum.

Dear all,

I don't recall anyone saying that TANGGUH was not used in relation to the keris. Where did you read that Ger?

[QUOTE]The next topic is about showing your Kris. It is true that in the far past it was not vry often done that you showed your kris in public. But times change and for myself even have taken pictures of the krisses of the Kraton guardians of Yogya. Who showed me their krisses with a lot of pride and were happy to see someone who was interested in them. These people live according to Adat but they showed me their Pusaka just the same. Just like every other Javanese met![QUOTE]

The guardians of the kraton who are on duty to look after the tourists in the kraton are trained in customer service. Ger, you must know the difference between keris ageman which you wear daily or to receptions and keris tayuhan which you keep.

[QUOTE=Silat Ger]Next and last topic, and maybe the most important one. The Kris as a weapon. As I said earlier I wrote a book about the kris and half the book is about the kris as a weapon and the other half about how to use the magick involved in a Kris.[QUOTE]

Thank you for giving many examples why the keris is not used as a weapon through the excerpts from Babad Tanah Jawi showing where and when it was used. The word Babad is not really translateable to History though, it means the clearing of the jungle, the story of the civilizing of Jawa. Have you read Dutch records of the debate whether or not to let the Jawa man wear his keris in court? But if you want to say that the keris is primarily a weapon rather than a sipat kandhel you can also find a rather recent report in the Jawa papers about a man killing several while amock with his keris, somewhere near Sragen, I think it was.

[QUOTE=Silat Ger]I just wanted to show some errors in the letters I have read and to shed some light on various themes that were not really worked out right according to me. By doing it in such a long letter I hope to show that I am interested in seeing the whole picture. I hope everybody will try to do that next time they don’t know something for certain or have questions. Please don’t put someone down because you think you know it all. That simply impossible. And yes I don’t know it all either. I guess I will get a lot of mail from this letter but please keep in mind that I only wanted to get people to read, talk and otherwise COMMUNICATE by exchanging meanings and knowledge without putting other people down.Ger Giesen. The Netherlands.

Your knowledge and good intentions are well recieved by me Ger and I look forward to reading your book explaining how to use the magick (with a k) of the keris. From the physical poin of view if you haven't already thought about it let me suggest: if you must discuss the use of the keris as a weapon don't say that a keris is primarily a stabbing or slashing weapon without describing the dhapur (shape / profile) or the warangan and pamor for all these details should contribute to determine the way the way the keris is used.

Sumangga.
Warm Ramadhan salaams to all,

Kiai Carita.

[Sgt_Major]

Welcome Ger..... good read there.

[Silat Ger]

Hello again,
It is good to see that my post was well recieved by the few who read it. I would like to say a litle more.
Kiai Carita, thank you for pointing me on my mistake about the meaning of Babad. I used a 64 year old dutch translation that obvious is not too accurate. Although I do speak a litle Behasa Indonesia my Kawi is zero. Also I wrote Magick and you pionted out it is magic. I'm awhere of that but wrote it this way to keep apart stage magic and real magick. I explain this in my book.
You indeed never wrote about tangguh but you did about tangu. If you understood my meaning concerning magick and babad, then how could you misinterpret the word tangu as meaning tangguh when one is speaking of the Keris?
About the Kraton guardians I have to say you could be right too but the families I visisted really showed me their pusaka and told me all of their tales. Even so, who is to say if the Kris Pendekar Sanders is showing isn't ageman?
And just a thought: You say that the Javanese kris is never used as a weapon, maybe the distinction between Keris Ageman and Keris Tayuhan is the same as between a Keris used for fighting and one not used for fighting?
In my book I indeed explain the dhapur and pamor of a kris and it's realation to the meaning and use of the Keris. I never wrote the Keris is a trusting and slashing weapon. Just a trusting weapon. Never slashing except the big Moro krisses which to me are not real Keris. But you have a point again. The dhapur and the pamor together show you the way the kris should be used and here there are a lot of styles that are for fighting.
The Keris comes from Java, that is for sure to me. An old dhapur is Jalak Budha wich often has a squere peksi. This is because it was used in grapling and this way the ukiran could not turn. When the Keris evolved the peksi became round because the kris became a trusting weapon and the powerline in the action stayed straight. I have a picture of a 14th century incence burner wich shows a warrior in a fighting stance ready to stab with his weapon, clearly a Keris. The burner is Javanese. So at that time the Kris was a weapon! And t stayed to be one although only for the initiated until Prince Diponegoro gave Kerisses to the common people to get them to fight for him against the dutch. And they fought for him with their Krisses. I have personal account of that.
I hope you all liked what I wrote and that it will give you someting to think about. The sharing of meanings is a way to learn I think.
Stay healthy, Ger

[RedBagani]

...except the big Moro krisses which to me are not real Keris.

Hello Ger, I commend you for your very informative post. May I ask you to clarify what you meant by the statement above? In the Philippines, we spell the weapon as Kris, not Keris. It is used for both slashing and thrusting and is considered more as a kind of sword rather than a dagger.
Hormat,
Red Bagani

[Kiai Carita]

In my book I indeed explain the dhapur and pamor of a kris and it's realation to the meaning and use of the Keris. I never wrote the Keris is a trusting and slashing weapon. Just a trusting weapon. Never slashing except the big Moro krisses which to me are not real Keris. But you have a point again. The dhapur and the pamor together show you the way the kris should be used and here there are a lot of styles that are for fighting.
The Keris comes from Java, that is for sure to me. An old dhapur is Jalak Budha wich often has a squere peksi. This is because it was used in grapling and this way the ukiran could not turn. When the Keris evolved the peksi became round because the kris became a trusting weapon and the powerline in the action stayed straight. I have a picture of a 14th century incence burner wich shows a warrior in a fighting stance ready to stab with his weapon, clearly a Keris. The burner is Javanese. So at that time the Kris was a weapon! And t stayed to be one although only for the initiated until Prince Diponegoro gave Kerisses to the common people to get them to fight for him against the dutch. And they fought for him with their Krisses. I have personal account of that.
I hope you all liked what I wrote and that it will give you someting to think about. The sharing of meanings is a way to learn I think.
Stay healthy, Ger

Salaams to all in this discussion,

Seems to be an interesting book you have there Ger. I still believe that primarily the Java keris was never meant to be a weapon. In emergency it can be used somewhat like a short sword. The dhapur of keris in Jawa are associated with symbols rather than function as a weapon. That is one reason why there are hundreds of dhapur in Jawa and there was not a process of natural selection in which a certain more reliable form of dhapur became most wide spread. The shapes of the Moro sundang or kris are much more simple because they are primarily weapons of battle. The shapes of the Malay keris are also much more simple and they also use them to fight and that is why they have different hilts and put the hilt a different angle than the Jawa keris.

The reality is that most of Jawa keris are of the Tilam Upih dhapur (meaning the bed of the spittle; the tounge) which is straight and without the strengthening ada-ada often very thin that they do not have the structural integrity to be used as a thrusting weapon. They are not primarily thrusting weapons and neither are they slashing weapons rather the Jawa Tilam Upih keris is a prayer that the tounge of the bearer be protected and inspired by God.

In Jawa it is often said that one keris has five sharp parts: the tip of the blade, the two edges, and the two pamor flat sides (damascene fold pattern). As such you can harm someone even with slashing using not the sharp edges of the keris but the flat of the blade where sharp bits of pamor are.

Ger your deduction about the evolution of the square pesi is interesting, however there seems to be one flaw in that having a square pesi is not (in my knowledge) a character (ricikan) of Jalak Budho, Bethok Budha or Brojol Budha (the three oldest shapes of Jawa keris, all short and stubby compared to later blades).

If you look at old Bali drawings there are also many battle scenes involving the keris. This however does not mean that the keris was always primarily a prayer and not a weapon rather it means that the artist chose to depict the height of the battle where warriors met existentialy. The keris were used by all classes of Jawa men long before Dipanegara. The Dipanegara war was fought mainly with pedhang and tombak and bedhil (muskets), again the keris were used only in emergency. They were worn in war but only used in emergency. What the Dipanegara war did do was end the Tangguh Madiun keris because the Madiun kraton was razed to the ground and the royal family dispersed into the population.

If you look at the old martial traditions in Jawa, Bali, Madura and Sunda they also do not use the keris (or the kujang) as a weapon although they will wear keris to weddings. However in Jawa it would not be normal to prance about with your keris whether it be a keris ageman or a keris tayuhan, it would be called ora ilok (taboo, not pretty).

Warm salaams to all,
KC

[Silat Ger]

Hello REdbagani,
in Holland were I live they also cal Keris, Kris. I use the tem Keris because in America and sometimes in Indonesia it is written as such. But also often as KRIS. So it's the same. A moro kris is not a real kris to me because it does not have a soul and no magical content that I know of. If I'm wrong please correct me on this, I wouldlike to know. Also as you state the sundang is more a trusting and slashing weapon. It's construction is much different from a Javanese Kris although on first sight they apear similar. I hope to answer your question like this.

I write more soon when I have a litle more time. I like to adress the possibilities written down by kiai Carita in more detail.
Ger

[RedBagani]

Hello REdbagani,
A moro kris is not a real kris to me because it does not have a soul and no magical content that I know of. If I'm wrong please correct me on this, I wouldlike to know.
Ger
Hello Ger,
Thank you for your reply. As far as having no magical quality, you are probably right although I am not sure if the weapon is considered to be without a soul. Maybe not in a profound way like the Indonesian keris. I will defer making any further comment because I do not consider myself an expert. I will ask around and will post what I have heard from the other guys.

[Crucible]

Hello Silat Ger,
I am not of the opinion that Moro Kris has no magical properties, though I would say it varies from kris to kris. The kris(though just as often the kampilan) is used in Maranao and Maguindanao rituals to enter trance like states, exorcise spirits and bless an occasion or building. There are inherent measurements to the weapon that will tell you if it will bring blessings or misfortune, both in daily life and in battle. A kriss that may bring me misfortune may bring brother RedBagani blessings. There are ways to know if its ever been used to kill another person. And I've seen Moro sundang covered in zikr, talismans and blessings that quite honestly made some us sick and have to leave the room it was stored in due to the potency of its pressence.

[Crucible]

Hello Ger, I commend you for your very informative post. May I ask you to clarify what you meant by the statement above? In the Philippines, we spell the weapon as Kris, not Keris. It is used for both slashing and thrusting and is considered more as a kind of sword rather than a dagger.
Hormat,
Red Bagani
Red, are you refering to Moro Kris or a Bisaya Kris? I've seen very few Moro krisses that I would use for thrusting, but almost every single Bisayan kriss I've seen looks designed for it.

Of course we have kriss daggers in the Philippines as well, both Bisayan and Moro, as well as swords.

[RedBagani]

I am, naturally, refering to the Moro kris. I have felt the soul in some of the blades I have encountered but have not actually seen any "magick". That explains my previous statement. The Visayan kris lacks a history and cultural setting. No specialized Visayan techniques have been developed around the use of the so-called Visayan kris, unlike in Moro martial arts. To me, the Visayan kris is just an imitation of the Mindanao kris. Of course, I may be wrong.

[themorningstar]

hello all,
i will speak briefly... please take with a grain of salt...
in older sulu times, the kalis/keris/kris, was imbued with a soul and magical properties... however in its more modern incarnations, these ways are almost non-existent both by maker and user... one interesting fact i will mention is the receivng of the kris. till this day, there are rituals observed and performed in procuring a kris, which if not done-result in not accepting the sword for many reasons.
please take this for what it is.. if you believe, you believe.. you don't, then you don't...



p.s. i too have been around certain kris that have done odd things to me....

[Kiai Carita]

In Setia Hati Terate these are the grades: Calon, Murid muda, Murid regu muda, Regu madya, Wakil kepala regu, Kepala regu, Calon pelath, assisten pelatih, Pelatih muda, Pelatih madya, Kepala pelatih, Guru (pelatih) muda, Guru (pelatih), Kepala guru, Maha guru muda, and Maha guru. No Pendekar whatsoever. Does this mean the title does not exist? Off course not!
So please be a little more tolerate towards one another if you see something you do not know or comprehend. Start by asking questions to the persons involved and do not start spreading doubts.


Dear Pendekars,

I happen to come from near the birthplace of SH Terate and have never ever heard of a Maha Guru or Maha Guru Muda in SH Terate. In fact knowing the connection with Sarekat Islam I imagine that it would be 'blasphemy' for a a SH Teacher to call himself Maha Guru. SH Terate people seem to call each other 'kadhang' meaning brother or sister. Which SH Terate are you describing Ger?

As for the title Pendekar traditionally it is not given by the silat school but by society in recognition of the pesilat's services to his or her community.

Hormat,
KC

[RedBagani]

hello all,
i will speak briefly... please take with a grain of salt...
in older sulu times, the kalis/keris/kris, was imbued with a soul and magical properties... however in its more modern incarnations, these ways are almost non-existent both by maker and user... one interesting fact i will mention is the receivng of the kris. till this day, there are rituals observed and performed in procuring a kris, which if not done-result in not accepting the sword for many reasons.
please take this for what it is.. if you believe, you believe.. you don't, then you don't...



p.s. i too have been around certain kris that have done odd things to me....
Yes, I can believe that. It is just that good swords are so rare it is almost impossible for most people to feel such experiences. I have not been so lucky yet.

[Silat Ger]

Hello Red Bagani, crucible and others, thank you for your information andsharing your knowledge. I was not aware of these things and will never make the mistake again to say a Moro kris is not a real kris to me. It abvious is. Sorry for the mistake.

Kiai Carita. I promised to answer more fully, so here it is.

About the grading in Setia hati terate you seem to be right. I had my info from a page I printed years back from an internet site. Now I asked a friend who does Persaudaraan Setia Hati and he told me there were three different brances of Setia Hati Terate nowadays. I did not know this previously. It is true that the founder of Setia Hati in principle did not use gradings because it was based on equality. But the PERSILAT agreed with the grading system I wrote of and it is widely used here in Holland. As it was with my original style.
But anyhow this is beside the point I was trying to make. The point of honouring other ones even if you are not sure about something or think they are wrong. And then first ask them. Like I did on the matter of the moro.


Off course the war against the Dutch under Pangeran Diponegoro was a modern war (in those days) and it was fought with guns and the like. Even so Krisses were given to the common people so they would fight with him and they were used as weapons as diaries from Dutch soldier who fought there can testify. And not only for emergencies but for attacking also. And even if it was in emergency this shows i was right in explaining this was the weapon they alsways carried.

About the five sharp sides on a keris. This is used to "proove" the kris is made with meteorite pamor. Then it has five sharp sides, otherwise it is more smood. And why mention slashing if it is not used as a weapon?

Tilam upih is usually thin yes. But a lot of krisses are not. they are more than sturdy enough for trusting yet not for slashing.

About the Kris berdapur Jalak Buda. You wrote you were not aware of it that one of their characteristics were a square peksi. It is not for all of them. But a lot of Jalak Buda do have square peksi, and these are considered the oldest ones. I have one with a round peksi but that does not mean all have round ones. In fact I think this peksi shows that the Kris Jalak Buda was a weapon. Although some think it even was a knife to kill animals for offerings. They think so because suddenly these kind of kris were not made anymore and even not revered such as the newer krisses are. For as far as I know all Jalak Buda are found on archaeological sites. None was given as a pusaka in a certain family from the old time on. They think the religon changed and that is why these krisses were not used anymore. This is not right I think. I have another opinion altogether.
The krisses like Jalak buda were weapons used in a underhand grip to slash and stab. They had a hilt with a disc like pommel that helps in this use. Proof of this can be found in the only jalak buda known to have it’s original hilt. It was found in lava and had its original hilt made out of wood and antler. This hilt looks like the hilts on reliefs of Prambanan and other temples. These show men fighting with jalak buda krisses in a underhand fashion. These reliefs date from around the beginning of the 10th century. They can be found on Candi Shiva and Candi Canataran. The squere peksi assures that the hilt with not turn on the peksi wich would likely happen in this way of fighting. Later reliefs show a slightly longer blade without the pommel and these are used from the hip in a trusting manner. (Candi Panataran and for example the incense burner I wrote about earlier.). Any anthropologist and archaeologist would see these examples as proof that the kris was at that time a weapon. The change to round peksi and the disappearance of Jalak buda was related to this change in the way of fighting. This was a time of lots of wars and small empires competing with each other. There would be lots of fighting and it is unlikely they would depict weapons they did not use!!!!! This was the weapon they carried all the time, as I wrote earlier. It stayed like this during the development of the longer kris as we know it know. And the use became more and more on the magic part but it stayed a weapon for those initiated.
About the hilts this developement was the same. The peksi got more of an angle in relation to the blade and guess what. The hilt shape and angle are really very ergonomical if you hold the kris at your hip, point towards your opponent. The perfect trusting weapon, try it!

Greetings, Ger

[Kiai Carita]

Assalamu'alaikum Pendekars,

Silat Ger wrote:

Off course the war against the Dutch under Pangeran Diponegoro was a modern war (in those days) and it was fought with guns and the like. Even so Krisses were given to the common people so they would fight with him and they were used as weapons as diaries from Dutch soldier who fought there can testify. And not only for emergencies but for attacking also. And even if it was in emergency this shows i was right in explaining this was the weapon they alsways carried.

Kiai Carita: You seem to know alot about the history of my country and family, Ger, but you are wrong when you say Diponegoro gave keris to the common people to fight for him. You might know of Mpu Kraton and Mpu nDesa? Mpu Ndesa made keris for the common people since long before the Islamic Mataram, long before the Giyanti treaty. The common people were eager to find a leader to fight the Dutch and Diponegoro filled that role. Keris were also used in the Indpendence Revolution not as a weapon but as a sipat kandhel. Sudirman used a keris to escape Dutch airplanes in Wonosari.

Silat Ger wrote:

About the five sharp sides on a keris. This is used to "proove" the kris is made with meteorite pamor. Then it has five sharp sides, otherwise it is more smood. And why mention slashing if it is not used as a weapon?

Kiai Carita: I am afraid you are wrong here Ger. The five sharp parts of a keris has nothing to do with meteorite or not meteorite rather they have symbolic meaning which I invite you to reveal. However, in emergency, it means any part of the keris (with warangan poison) can kill an enemy.

Silat Ger writes:
Tilam upih is usually thin yes. But a lot of krisses are not. they are more than sturdy enough for trusting yet not for slashing.

Kiai Carita: Tilam Upih is the most common keris of all tangguh after Kabudan. If the keris was primarily a weapon (for stabbing) then the most common dhapur should be one with an ada-ada, should it not? The way keris simplified in Malaysia and the Philippines show the development towards becoming primarily a physical weapon but in Jawa it never was.

Silat Ger:
About the Kris berdapur Jalak Buda. You wrote you were not aware of it that one of their characteristics were a square peksi. It is not for all of them. But a lot of Jalak Buda do have square peksi, and these are considered the oldest ones. I have one with a round peksi but that does not mean all have round ones. In fact I think this peksi shows that the Kris Jalak Buda was a weapon. Although some think it even was a knife to kill animals for offerings. They think so because suddenly these kind of kris were not made anymore and even not revered such as the newer krisses are. For as far as I know all Jalak Buda are found on archaeological sites. None was given as a pusaka in a certain family from the old time on. They think the religon changed and that is why these krisses were not used anymore. This is not right I think. I have another opinion altogether. The krisses like Jalak buda were weapons used in a underhand grip to slash and stab. They had a hilt with a disc like pommel that helps in this use. Proof of this can be found in the only jalak buda known to have it’s original hilt. It was found in lava and had its original hilt made out of wood and antler. This hilt looks like the hilts on reliefs of Prambanan and other temples. These show men fighting with jalak buda krisses in a underhand fashion. These reliefs date from around the beginning of the 10th century. They can be found on Candi Shiva and Candi Canataran. The squere peksi assures that the hilt with not turn on the peksi wich would likely happen in this way of fighting. Later reliefs show a slightly longer blade without the pommel and these are used from the hip in a trusting manner. (Candi Panataran and for example the incense burner I wrote about earlier.). Any anthropologist and archaeologist would see these examples as proof that the kris was at that time a weapon.

Kiai Carita: Are you talking about Knaud's Keris? I am aware of the jalak Buddha like reliefs on Prambanan, Candi Sari, Panataran, and also you should be aware of the dhapur Lar Bango on Prambanan, which is a longer keris. The reliefs do not show the peksi so you can't say whether they are square or round. Any anthtopologist or archaeologist would wait for more evidence and also listen to the people of the culture he was studying before he makes conclusions contrary to the knowledge of the people who support the keris culture. Unless he is a Colonial Orientalist who thins the inlanders are stupid.

Silat Ger:

The change to round peksi and the disappearance of Jalak buda was related to this change in the way of fighting. This was a time of lots of wars and small empires competing with each other. There would be lots of fighting and it is unlikely they would depict weapons they did not use!!!!! This was the weapon they carried all the time, as I wrote earlier. It stayed like this during the development of the longer kris as we know it know. And the use became more and more on the magic part but it stayed a weapon for those initiated.

Kiai Carita: Ger, there was no chronological change in the shape of the peksi from square to round and although the Jalak Buddha in Dutch hands mught be only from archaeological sites there are many in the hands of Javanese people, used as keris tindih, rarely or not ever shown to others. I suppose you consider yourself initiated but what I see is you imposing your definition of a holy aspect of Jawa culture even though it goes contrary to common sense and to what the Jawa people themselves say. The Dutch have always done this but I am a son of Jawa and I think that it is not right that Dutch unilateraly define our spirituality and culture. By the way you have not addressed the question why there are so many ricikan in so many dhapur of keris if it is primarily a stabbing (physical) weapon?

Silat Ger:

About the hilts this developement was the same. The peksi got more of an angle in relation to the blade and guess what. The hilt shape and angle are really very ergonomical if you hold the kris at your hip, point towards your opponent.

Kiai Carita:

Are you talking about the hilts of Java from Yogya or Solo or Madiun or Banyumas or Madura or Cirebon or what? If you look at pictures made by Raffles or pictures of Diponegoro and Alibasyah Sentot you will see that the hilts are different from what they are now. The peksi is on an angle for a symbolic reason.

Silat Ger:

The perfect trusting weapon, try it!


Kiai Carita: No! Don't prance about with your keris or kujang if you are trying to live Jawa culture. It is ORA ILOK, not pretty, taboo. An Mpu does not make a keris to be played with like a toy.

Please do what you will with your theories about keris as after waiting for your posts I realize I have no time to discuss keris in this way. I think that this discussion is going nowhere and because you want to publish a book on keris you have your preconcieved ideas. Lastly, still I would suggest that if you want to study keris fighting you study Gayong and not Cimande as it would be more appropriate.

Wassalamu'alaikum Warrohmatullahi Wabarakatuh,

Kiai Carita.

[silatliam]

Hi Kiai

You quoted in your last email

No! Don't prance about with your keris or kujang if you are trying to live Jawa culture. It is ORA ILOK, not pretty, taboo. An Mpu does not make a keris to be played with like a toy.

Please do what you will with your theories about keris as after waiting for your posts I realize I have no time to discuss keris in this way. I think that this discussion is going nowhere and because you want to publish a book on keris you have your preconcieved ideas. Lastly, still I would suggest that if you want to study keris fighting you study Gayong and not Cimande as it would be more appropriate.

Wassalamu'alaikum Warrohmatullahi Wabarakatuh,

I was amazed at the remarks and your comments in your last email . I know silat Ger personally and he did not come onto this forum to promote his book. Instead he came onto this forum to discuss the Keris as you started off attacking another teacher. I've have found Silat Ger emails to be very enlighting and has clear up a number of question I had on the keris.
It seems lately you have a view on every subject in these silat forums, thats fair enough, but just because someone else has a different view doesnt maen you have to get all huffy. I thought you practise a form of humility. We all have a right to believe who we want to believe and since we living in the free world we can choose who we want to believe in.

As one of thoes silly western people (who you very willing to live among to make your living) who prance around with my keris and kunjang pretending to know how to fight with it. Im very amazed why, then that I get ask in Ireland by many Indonesian, Malay, Indians and Fililipino's to teach then how to use the Keris. I dont look apon the Keris as a toy, but as a weapon. Every weapon I wear on my body in class I can use as a weapon. Thats the rule my Malay teacher told me, do not wear what you cannot used, as this is disrespect for the past warriors.

Also your statement about Guyong better than Cimande for Keris. As a student of both systems Ive learnt far more from my Cimande Teacher that I ever did from my Guyong Teacher. on a final note. Ive just completed a combat keris workshop in Ireland where students of all different styles of martials arts could come along and train how to use the keris in combat, no one at the end of the workshop could say what you keep saying "keris cant be use in combat". If you want to sart using mumbo jumbo words like taboo, thats your culture. I didnt take up silat to become like a javanese. Ive no interest instead Im a pround Celt from a long line of Celts. Does that mean I can or cant do silat??? I leave that to the students I teach to decide.


well done Ger thanks for sticking for the little men on this site ... keep up the good work


..power to us the silly westerners who dont know anything.. but can we defend our love ones... our land.. our beliefs.... our honour aahh thats the question we must work out .. as we say in Ireland (the land of the fairies) "go on your good thing" time some irish got put on this forum that would freak out some people, wouldnt know what we were saying

[Garuda]

First of all I would like to say that I think that everyone has the right to do the things he does the way he likes/wants it. And I respect that even if the way of another person is not my way.

I however agree with Kiai, that in Java a Keris is not used as a weapon. Kiai is as I understood of Royal Javanese lineage and I assume that he has learned from his family the Javanese traditions, adat and the history of his family so if he states that the keris is not used as a weapon then it is my opinion that this is historically true within his family and the region he comes from. Furthermore my teacher who is also of Javanese Royal lineage also told me that the keris is not used as a weapon, but that it is a pusaka. Furthermore I do not know any Javanese member that claimed to me that the keris is used as a weapon (but I have to admit that many peeople in Java do not know a lot anymore about these things). Next to that I know that in Malaysia the keris is used as a weapon. So what I would like to say is that we should respect people like Kiai who have a lot of cultural knowledge which they attained not as an outsider, but as a person who lived it from the inside and whose knowledge was passed on within his family.

Furthermore I agree that you can use everything as a weapon. It is my opinion that in the hands of a well trained pesilat everything is a weapon. I can use a chair or a bicycle wheel as a weapon if I want, but that does not mean they were meant to be used as weapons. So if an emergency arises I can also use a pusaka like the keris as a weapon, but that does not mean that the keris is meant to be a weapon within a Javanese context.

I hope that we can respect the different views everyone has. We should accept and respect that there are people for whom the keris is a pusaka and is therefore not used as a weapon and on the other hand we should accept and respect that there are people who use the keris as a weapon. This is everyones right and freedom.

Garuda...

[rizal]

I guess Kiai Carita forget about the folk stories (should I dare say historical?) in Java concerning keris. For example: The Kris made by Mpu Gandring, the Ra Tanca episode, etc.
Keris are weapons, period. Yes there are kerises that are used primarily as Talisman or Jimat for enhancement reasons (e.g. making the wearer more charismatic, invulnerable, etc.), it doesn't make that Keris ARE MEANT to be talismans only. The designs are developed for killing.
Keris ARE NOT signs of royalty. Hell, the records of Zheng Ho even shows that he is terrified that in Java, many people carried 'dagger-like' weapons and a simple act of touching someone forehead without permission can caused bloodletting.
But there are differences about Kerises that was owned by a peasant and a King's Keris. Some pamor are only used for Kings, some for nobility. There are even pamors for mercenary, merchant, and farmer.
I must criticize Kiai Carita in his arguments. Just because someone is a foreigner it does not mean that he is unqualified to make observation of other people culture. In fact, it will broaden our own view of our culture since we can see ours in another's eye.
E.g. I always enjoyed the performance of two spanish pesilats during the International Silat Meet a long time ago. Their 'play' is most gratifying, not mention funny as well!

[Silat Ger]

Hello again Kiai Carita,
I'm really sorry you choose to stop with our disqusion. I rather enjoyed our "talk". It was never meant to put you or your culture down in any way. Sorry if I was rude to you. You are right in the fact that I'm dutch. This is a serious problem in studyiing the Kris, which I love very much. I never claimed to know everything and a lot that I know or think to know comes from second hand and from books. But a lot comes from meditating with various krisses and from speaking to Javanese people, including Harrie Koster who you should know since he is well known in the yogya and Solo Kraton.
So I'm more or less blind to some knowledge and this is why I liked our discussion. It was a way to veryfy my knowledge. Please see my mail and see that I did listen and if i was convinced I took new info for fact. Sometimes i was not convinced or had more to say on the object. Isn't that discussion? You are stopping because you think it's a waste of time but isn't it a way to teach someone too? Like about the five sharps, I do not know their symbolic meaning.
On the other hand while you say to stop you put in more questions.
No i was not refering to the Knaud kris. I referred to a kris found in lava with it's original hilt. The wood of the hilt is proven to be from 14th century and the antler from 13th century.
By the way, as you know the Knaud kris was givven to a DUTCH dokter that cured a prince. This as a reward for doing so. So not all Dutch were bad or thought Javanese stupid. My ancestors weren't!! And I'm not. But looking from far away also gives me the oppertunity to see beyond the symbolism to the practical. What came first, the chicken or the egg? I do not try to kill the mytical part, on the contrary. I think both are equally true. The kris is never primarily a weapon, I never wrote this. It is both a weapon and magikal instrument (I think). This is why there are so many ricikan. They are all symbolical meanings for it's magik.
By the way any kind of kris hilt is very ergonamical.
Antropologist also know that folklore changes in time!
And last but not least. I never wrote were my book could be obtained to keep the discussion clear. It was not my intention of trying to make advertisement this way.
And putting the bad Dutch behaviour from the past in the discussion was to me a sign of anger which was not invoked.
I hope you stay well, Ger

[Kiai Carita]

I must criticize Kiai Carita in his arguments. Just because someone is a foreigner it does not mean that he is unqualified to make observation of other people culture. In fact, it will broaden our own view of our culture since we can see ours in another's eye.

Rizal, have you read back on your Diponegoro history? Last time you said Diponegoro was exiled to Ambon and that was wrong. Now you are putting words into my text: In fact to understand the Javanese I would higly recomend reading the works of foriegners such as Zoetmulder, Pemberton, Seigel, Anderson, Geertz, Kahin, Feith, Lucas, and many more.

To you who want to discuss more about the keris I would suggest to go to a keris forum not a silat forum. Vikingsword have a very knowledgeable group of posters in the ethnographic blade forum, There are experts on the keris of the Javanese, Malay, Riau, Bugis, Madura, Bali, Sunda and Moro there and I also post there. In that forum we can discuss all aspects of keris without boring people with the mumble jumble of kerisology.

Warm salaams to all,
KC

[Crucible]

In fact to understand the Javanese I would higly recomend reading the works of foriegners such as Zoetmulder, Pemberton, Seigel, Anderson, Geertz, Kahin, Feith, Lucas, and many more.


Hi Kiai,
Are those books in Dutch? English? Thanks.

[Playful Giant]

What a load of tripe!! Your teachings seem valid enough, but to come onto a forum and start telling people what to do is just plain rude.

If a person receives you as an enemy than that is his choice.

Also, you seem to be using the forum as free advertising.

[Kiai Carita]

Hi Kiai,
Are those books in Dutch? English? Thanks.

Hi Crucible, most are in English, Seigel: Solo in The New Order is a thesis written in the city Solo. Ben Anderson has written alot about the Javanese (Language and Power, Pemuda), as so has Clifford Geertz (The Religion of Java) and he was a student of George Kahin (forgot the name of the book) who was a young student who befriended all the Indonesian revolutionaries in the revolution years before 1950. Herb Feith's masterpeice The Downfall Of Constitutional Democracy in Indonesia tells about how dictatorship took over in 1959, John Pemberton ...wrote about the modern day Javanese ...I forgot the tittle. P.J Zoetmulder was a Dutch Javanophile and a Jesuit priest, and his book Kalangwan is the best book on traditional Javanese poetry, I am not sure if there is an English translation but pretty sure there is a Dutch one.

Warm salaams to all,
KC

[Crucible]

Thanks Kiai,

Warm Salaams!

[rizal]

ah, the "you have given a false info in the past, so you must be wrong here" attack. so Kiai Carita, some questions

1) Those history shows that Keris Mpu Gandring is not a weapon?
2) Does the final episode after the Winehsuka/Ra Kuti Coup, the Jayanegara Assasination by Ra Tanca, what kind of weapon Gajah Mada used? A spear? a sword?

In fact, your insistence of not classifying Keris as a weapon is humourous. Baring the blade (pulling Keris outside its sheath) is taboo, because it is considered a threatening gesture, something that is still illegal by law today (not limited to Keris)
I concede the Diponegoro episode to you :bang: Although I must check with my family in Ambon since the burial ground is there (perhaps it meant Diponegoro's followers?).
But please, grow up. Using the above attack is considered 'nekulturny' and childish in a debate. :)

[Sgt_Major]

time some irish got put on this forum that would freak out some people, wouldnt know what we were saying

To be sure! 'tis a good thang to see thee sai takin such a route. Of course I tend to slip into the belfast drawl very easy these days which is even harder to understand! :D


I didnt take up silat to become like a javanese. Ive no interest instead Im a pround Celt from a long line of Celts. Does that mean I can or cant do silat??? I leave that to the students I teach to decide.

As a student of Liams, I am annoyed at the fact his abilities are being questioned by someone who has never seen him move. Im not going to heap praises on his skills, as to do so would be demaning to him I feel. Liam has no need of my praises, yet he knows he has my utmost respect and dedication to him as a teacher, and more importantly as a friend with whom I can talk about issues not related to Martial Arts.

Guru Liam:

You sir, are one of the gentlest Silat warriors I have ever seen, or trained with, your touch is deceptively soft, and hides the true strength until it is too late, even when you have had me trussed up on the floor in Kilrea sports hall, oft times I'm laying there thinking "How the hell did I end up here, He hardly more than touched me!" and yet that does little to allieviate the fact Im still trussed up on the floor like the goose at christmas! This is something I feel you taught very well to Guru Robert, Guru Denny, and Guru Richard, who are all also light of touch, but most times I know fine well how Im going to end up in those training encounters :D :D :D


At the end of the day, I live in a free world of gluttony, lies, deception, ignorance, and a million other vices of man. We can only do as we see best to discern who is telling us what will benefit us and not cause us harm. I have no hesitation in believing what Guru Liam tells me, as I believe there is no ill will in him. Even to hear him talk of those who disrespect him in ways that if it were directed to me would enrage me, he STILL talks with a tone of respect towards a fellow human, and can see that there are obviously other aspects in these peoples live that make them do what they do. Maybe they get a lot of hassle from the wife, or lack financial stabilty, or a multitude of reasons that can slowly eat away at a mans honor and resolve until he says or does things that are not becoming of a true Martial Artist.