Wing Chun

[Andy Murray]

Just to prove my cup can still be empty. After about fifteen years with Lau Gar Kung Fu, and acheiving Black Sash, I have started a new class as a beginner. I consider myself fortunate to have found an inspirational Sifu in Samuel Kwok. I would be interested in hearing from anyone who has any thoughts on the Wing Chun system.

[Cooler]

Hey Andy

Good luck with the Wing Chun lessons. Let me know how it goes.

Cooler.

[hongkongfuey]

I did around 6 months Wing Chun after Lau Gar, and found it to be a very different and interesting system from other Kung Fu styles. Very effective at close range. Does Samuel Kwok teach in Edinburgh?

[Andy Murray]

Not so far as I know HKP, but check out the 'Links' section for the Scottish connection. They are based in Glasgow I believe although I have never been there!

[Silver_no2]

Am in the flat on a Saturday night showing a couple of friends this forum (God, I used to have a life!!!). One of them (who will be registering with the site soon I'm sure!) is a Wing Chun girl who wants to write a few words, so - with no further delay let me introduce......FluffyDoc!!! (Loads of applause and cheering!)

There's a Wing Chun class in Edinburgh taught by one of Samuel Kwok's former students. Does Hongkongfuey want more info? Andy - how are you enjoying Wing Chun? Fluffydoc.

[Melanie]

Welcome Fluffydoc

Hope you enjoy the forum! Nice name by the way :D

Yeah Andy, how are you getting on?

Melanie

[Andy Murray]

Hi Fluffydoc....I have taken a temporary break on he Wing Chun thing.........Long Story, and boring even by my standards. Should be back in earnest in a couple of weeks.

I know Sifu Kwok has classes in Glasgow, though as yet I have not met the instructor who runs that club for him.

Also in Glasgow is Dennis Mulholland, who is running a nice trad Wing Chun Club off Dumbarton Road.

Any more info on Wing Chun in Edinburgh would be appreciated.

[fluffydoc]

Paul Smith does a class at Marco's Leisure Centre, Grove Street, Edinburgh at 6.30pm on Sundays. It turns Sunday into a really tiring day as I also do 2-3 hours aikido in the afternoon.

What do people like/ dislike about Wing Chun?

[Freeform]

No fluffy its your constantly drinking me and the rest of the Aikido club under the table after training that makes sunday tiring.

[fluffydoc]

Hey! Are you casting a slur on my name as a serious martial artist? I'm trying to create a good impression here!

[Andy Murray]

Fluffydoc, what I like about Wing Chun, is that the movements are all simple direct and effective. I don't need to be big, or strong, with legs six feet long to be effective. I can train it till I die, as age doesn't matter. I also learn something every time I train forms or Chi Sao.

[fluffydoc]

Andy, there's loads of things I like about Wing Chun. A major one is that you avoid whatever is thrown at you. As an average sized girlie, I'm not interested in absorbing damage so I can make my attack. Having said that, my forearms have been thoroughly conditioned over the last 2 years!
It's also very transparent - you can see the point of any part of the forms fairly readily. Even better, there's only 3 basic forms to learn!
There's nothing I really dislike. I'm probably biased because I've limited experience of other styles though have now done ~7 months aikido. Any particular weaknesses in the style apparent to you?

[Andy Murray]

. Any particular weaknesses in the style apparent to you?

Fluffydoc, it is much too early for me to analyse Wing Chun. At a guess I would say that; because the style deals in angles and pressures, it is important that people training Wing Chun practice application against people of other styles. You know when you train Chi Sau with a raw recruit, all the strange angles and energies they use? What looks/feels like one thing can sometimes be another. A lot of arts will tell you that! You can learn as much from a beginner as from an experienced student. I think some people can treat Chi Sau as a competitive sport, with a winner and loser. I also think this is probably just the men. It's the hormones you know!

I had a nice chat with an Aikido Master once. we swapped a lot of ideas. The sensitivity training in Wing Chun is something that the Aikido players really benefit from, in reading angles and pressures. The straight forward application of strikes in the style, to set up a lock or throw. Bong Sau in particular is an excellent entry.

I must get up and check out one of Pauls classes when I can.

[Andy Murray]

Hey guys,

Interested in Wing Chun?

Take a look at this site. It just doesn't get any clearer than this. the style and first form are explained and demonstrated. Hope you find it as useful as I did!

http://www.wingchuninteractive.com/site.html

Andy:D

[hongkongfuey]

All you Lau Gar guys/gals should recognise the first Wing Chun form (Jorn sau, for those having difficulty remembering!)

I used to train with Paul in Edinburgh, fluffydoc, and he is a very good instructor.

The only difficulty with Wing Chun in my opinion is the difficulty in bridging the gap at the beginning of a fight. Once you have arm on arm contact, Wing Chun is pretty unbeatable.

[Andy Murray]

Hi HKF,

The form 'Siu nim tao' in Wing Chun has some common points of reference to the form 'Jorn Sau' in Lau Gar, but they are not the same!

The second form in the Wing Chun system, 'Chum Kil' roughly translates as "search for the bridge" or "bridging the gap"

Through my own research I have found that; the commonly held belief amongst Wing Chun practitioners, is that it takes two to three years to really start to apply the system in combat. I maintain an open mind on this though!

Andy :)

http://www.wingchuninteractive.com/site.html

[Greyghost]

Andy,

visited the site that you had a link to...bit jealous..the cartoon is better than i am...


oh well....back to the drawing board

[LilBunnyRabbit]

To be honest a martial art which takes years to apply in combat is more art than martial, a student should be able to apply what they learn after the first lesson, albeit not necessarily very well.

[Andy Murray]

To be honest a martial art which takes years to apply in combat is more art than martial, a student should be able to apply what they learn after the first lesson, albeit not necessarily very well.

Put it this way..........anyone on this forum could go and take one lesson in Wing Chun, and leave with something that could be applied. I was talking about Wing Chun as a system!

Wing Chun is a complete system with techniques that are effective against striking, grappling and armed opponents. There is a clear and deliberate structure in the order concepts and principles are introduced in the syllabus.

If it answers CKD's question a little more clearly, I would say;

I get what you are saying, Soldiers get a few weeks training before being sent into the trenches, basics of survival etc. Organisations like the Marines, or the SAS take these basics further, and integrate them into a system to create the 'complete' adaptable fighting unit. This takes time, this takes repetition and it requires individuals who are suited to that type of training!

I mentioned three years to be effective in Wing Chun. I don't think that's a long time in MA, and I'd love to see a 40 y/o WC fighter against a 20 y/o kickboxer, who have both trained three years.

New thread anyone?

Andy;)

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Ahh, fair enough then. My misunderstanding. Sorry.

[Andy Murray]

Not at all CKD. Just as well I wasn't postulating a one-fingered block eh. LOL

[fluffydoc]

Wow, this thread took off while I wasn't looking!
Visited the site you put on Andy. Shame the 2nd and 3rd form aren't there too. And dummy form come to think of it. Nice illustration of 1st form though.
Where's Greyghost doing Wing Chun?

[Greyghost]

hey fluffydoc,

i'm just out of shot behind the cartoon telling him what to do....

you put your left tan sao in

you take your left tan sao out

in
out
in
out

you shake it all about......

[fluffydoc]

Bet you're a great dancer.....

[Andy Murray]

Hi Fluffydoc,

Thanks very much for getting me and GG the invite to your Wing Chun seminar. I look forward to meeting Paul. I hope you manage to make it yourself too.

Promise to take it easy on us!

Andy:)

[fluffydoc]

No problem. I'll see you tomorrow. I guess you'll be the 2 I don't recognise!
Fluffy

[Andy Murray]

Hey Fluffy doc,

you'll find us in the Photo Gallery!

Andy

p.s. I shaved!

[Andy Murray]

Just a quick note first of all to thank Lynne ( Fluffydoc ) in making it possible for myself and Fraser ( Grey ghost ) to attend the Wing Chun seminar in Edinburgh, hosted by Paul of Edinburgh Wing Chun, and starring Samuel Kwok and friends.

Kwok Sifu quickly established people into three varying levels of experience, and got us working on Chi Sao application, Simple Combinations, Speed drills, in fact just so much information that three hours passed like two!

A particularly fascinating interlude was where Kwok Sifu showed us a trick for leaping over tall buildings, in a single bound, without the aid of a wire. See the things you miss!;)

Nicer yet was when Lynne invited us down to meet her training ( drinking ) buddies. Nice to be able to meet the people behind the posts! So Tintin, Silver, Freeform and Fluffydoc, thanks for the hospitality!

I'm sure we will meet again!

AndyM:D

[Greyghost]

Just a short note to add my thanks to andy's.

I had a great day, the atmosphere was excellent (if subtropical in temperature), and the training truly inspiring.

And it was nice to meet floppyduck, tintin, freeform and silverno2, i hope the medication that you must surely be on is working.

I hope we can attend some of your classes over the summer, and of course the invitation to visit us is always open..(just remember to bring your passports.)

i shall finish with truly inspiring words from Tintin.....

"Where does Optimus Primes Trailer go when he transforms"

regards,




:D :D

[fluffydoc]

You're more than welcome to come and train with us again and I'd like to visit. I'm confused by this mention of passport though. I thought access to the west was governed by exchange of sheep?
Fluffydoc. Not floppy. Not a duck.

[Andy Murray]

I read a story ( probably completely fabricated ) about a young Bruce Lee turning up for training early with Yip Man, so he could tell everybody else that Yip Man was ill, and class was cancelled. This was all so he could get a class by himself with Yip Man.

I turned up for training on Monday to find myself in a fluke class. Normally my Wing Chun class has 30 to 40 students crammed into a very small room, all vyeing for Kwok Sifu's attention. I was delighted to find myself in a class with only three other people. I played hands with Kwok Sifu for a large part of the class, and learned a great deal in that time.

The fire that burned out three buildings just down the road was nothing to do with me.......honest!

[fluffydoc]

You lucky, lucky B*****d!
Where is that class anyway?

[Andy Murray]

Where is that class anyway?

It's Victoria Congressional Church in Blackpool. I believe Kwok Sifu lives in Blackpool in between his teaching hops all over the world.

Nice bunch of guys n gals down there, though it's a very competitive environment.

Andy

[fluffydoc]

You certainly get around Andy. I barely manage all my training up here.

[Red5angel]

I read a passage from a book the other day. Its about Taichi, but it is definitely as impotant to wingchun. It stated that a good sign that a taichi school was teaching good taichi was to look at the women in the class. The reasons were that , first, women tend to have a natural sensitivty and softness and so for them, that should be cultivated, for the good of the class.
Too often women are pushed out of these arts ebcause men who rely on strength and size to win a contest, in chi sau or pushhands for taichi. Unfortunately that is too ego based, these guys dont want to invest in loosing because they dont see that as learning.
Getting that softness and that sensitivity takes along time, and you will win a little and loose a lot but in the end you gain.
I walked into an EBMAS school the other day and had to shake my head. Here were these girls struggling to use what they were being taught against these guys, because it was all about muscle and strength. All the while the instructor kept swearing that wing chun is good for smaller people!

[fluffydoc]

After a quick smile at being described as sensitive and soft, I agreed with your post. I've been lucky in that I've been taught Wing Chun from an angle that suits me; by that I mean I've never been told to try it as a power style. If anything I've had to get that practised out of me as for some reason I always try to use power even though I'm clearly far weaker than my opponent (duh!).
P.S. What's an EBMAS school?

[Red5angel]

fluffydoc, EBMAS is the Emin Boztepe Martial Arts System. I dont want to sully this forum with the words I would use to describe it but suffice it to say they stray from the soft and sensitive approach.
The funny thing about it in my experience is even though people will stand in front of you and tell you its not about power, they will then touch your hands and use all the force they can get a hold of.
I think the use o fpower, even when small and 'weak' is naturaly for us, thats why we have to train so hard to not revert to it!

[Andy Murray]

I find it's one of the hardest things to learn in WC.
I'm naturally quite strong, and I find myself pulling back, and allowing myself to be hit, so I can work out how I should be dealing with something technically.

Then again, people with good technique and application can seem to be very strong, even though you just know you could take their Pizza from them on a Saturday night.

Talking of the fem side of WC. I often find the majority of strike openings are to the chest. I wondered if this is a problem for the lady practitioner?

Andy

[Side-kick]

Sil lim Tao: I visited http://www.wingchuninteractive.com/site.html
and looked at its instruction of the 1st form. Is this first form standardised across all Wing Chun. I ask because I saw an instructional video [Ho Wan wing chun - which I did like] and this has some differences between the form used on the video and that on this web site. Example the web site has hands pushing behind the body and also has arms outstretched into a 'T' shape. Conversly, the video had some unique moves that the web site didnt have.

I was curious.

[Red5angel]

Side-kick - There are man lineages of wingchun, and many teachers under those lineages. Variations in SLT are pretty common, although most are roughly the same with a few minor changes. Some of these changes are instituted as marketing schemes ie "The secret SLT of such and such a lineage!" but most are honest changes, whether for the best or not.

[Andy Murray]

Hi Side-kick,

yeah as Red5 said no two people are the same. I did a Google search on 'Ho Wan Wing Chun, and came up with the video you mentioned, and the name Master Wong.
Unfortunately there seem to be an awful lot of Master Wongs out there.

'You could Wing, but you might get a Wong number???' lol;)

http://www.cnvt.com/wingchun/history.htm#English%20Word

The majority of contemporary Wing Chun folks seem to trace back to Yip Man in some shape or form, but other styles list as.........

Yip Man Wing Chun
Yuen Kay-San Wing Chun Kuen
Gu Lao Wing Chun Kuen
Nanyang Wing Chun Kuen
Pan Nam Wing Chun Kuen
Pao Fa Lien Wing Chun Kuen
Hung Suen Wing Chun Kuen
Jee Shim Wing Chun Kuen
Fujian Wing Chun Kuen
hung Suen Hay Ban Wing Chun Kuen
Malaysian Wing Chun Kuen
Pien San Wing Chun Kuen
Vietnamese Wing Chun Kuen
Yiu Kai Wing Chun Kuen
etc.

Highly reccomend 'Complete Wing Chun' by Robert Chu, Rene Ritchie and Y.Wu, as a book with a definitive history of Wing Chuns history and traditions. It's published by 'Tuttle Martial Arts'.

Hope this help

Andy

[Red5angel]

Just wanted to bust in here Andy, I like 'Complete Wing chun' As well but it is still not a comprehensive study of wing chun from a lineages point of view. It is a good place to get a taste of where some of them come from but research would have to be done on your own to come up with a comprehensive list of lineages and origin.

[Andy Murray]

Not a problem Red5,
bust in anywhere you want.
Agree on the lineages thing, though I guess it's a hard tree to write and not leave somebody out.
Ip Ching and Ip Chun seem to missing from this book for example, but maybe I've missed something there.
Cetainly the lineage I have attached myself too is via Samuel Kwok who trains under Ip Chun and Ip Ching.

'Complete Wing Chun' is merely a great source of information, but if you have any ideas about where we should/can do further research, then please share them. The majority of people seem to be happy just 'parroting' the old Nun story.

Don't want to get too caught up in the whole lineage thing though.
You can either apply Wing Chun or you can't?

Regards

Andy

[Red5angel]

Exaclty, though I find the lineage thing interesting, most of it has been so damaged by subterfuge and misinformaiton that it really isnt worth bothering yourself too much on.

[NielStewart]

An interesting article on the origins of wing chun can be found HERE (http://www.cyberkwoon.com/html/article.php?sid=24)

Some of you may already have read it - but it starts...

"Put simply, the harsh truth is this: the myth of the Buddhist nun, Ng Mui and her disciple Yim Wing Chun, the supposed founders of the Wing Chun system, is just that - a myth. As the internet has brought information more readily to us, it has come to light that the story of Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun was merely a way to conceal the truth about the system's origins and the identities of the political rebels who actually developed it. "

It becomes apparant that there are a lot of "myths" and not much information with regard to many chinese martial arts - perhaps this is due to many of them apparantly having origins in revolutions/triads - which sounds better - my art decends from the famed shaolin temple in china a place of buddhist monks famous the world over

or...

my art descends from revolutionaries trying to overthrow the government and refined through triad gangs and criminal activity??

(PS that is not a dig at anyone, least of all wing chun practitioners so please dont take offence - it is merely an opinion with regard to Southern Chinese Kung Fu of any description)

[Red5angel]

It is true that the Chines like to have 'creation myths' for thier martial arts, most of those myths have some basis in fact. Most of it at the end of the day is unimportant except for making interesting reading.

[fluffydoc]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
Talking of the fem side of WC. I often find the majority of strike openings are to the chest. I wondered if this is a problem for the lady practitioner?



Generally it seems to be much more of a problem for the male practitioners who become flustered at any accidental contact! Seriously though, it is appreciated if strikes are kept reasonably high on the chest where I'm more muscle and less breast tissue. Strikes to the chest would only bother me if I thought I was being sleazed on.

I find the lineage thing interesting, most of it has been so damaged by subterfuge and misinformaiton that it really isnt worth bothering yourself too much on.

Couldn't agree more. I can enjoy WC fine without politics and squabbles over lineage.

Cheers, Fluffy. :D

[Red5angel]

Before my class started sparring, I had talked to a couple of the women in it about how they felt. They had only seen it a few times but the 'awkwardness' had been recognized, and I got a few different answers. My interest in teaching led me to talk to these girls about it for future reference. I came to the conclusion on my own that chest protectors will always be an option in my school.
One of the girls I talked to showed some trepidation, she wanted to spar but didnt know how she felt about most of the strikes we used going to the chest. Another said she didnt care, like fluffydoc, as long as she felt the other person wasnt trying to 'cop a feel' then it was ok. Another girl agreed with her as well but said if it got out of hand she may pick up her own chest protector.
Interestingly enough, while visiting another school in my lineage, one of the girls there was sparring with a younger student. On a break she talked excitedly to me about the fact that he was actually hitting her! We talked a little and decided that some of the men there were afraid or embarrassed to go all out with her, because of her smal size and because she was 'differently equipped'.
Its a subject that needs to be addressed with any student, both male and female in my view. Especially here in america where the propensity to sue is high. For me, when I become an instructor I believe that I will have to keep an eye on everyone but encourage female students to discuss this openly if they are ocmfortable so that both sexes can come to grips with a sensitive subject.

[Black and Blue]

so that both sexes can come to grips with a sensitive subject.

Coming to grips with a sensitive subject indeed! :)

At my club we train strikes to the chest, but more often than not use strikes to the head and neck. A fak sau to the side of the neck or a light palm/fist to the chin or cheek never hurt anyone... well, you know what I mean.

Having caught the odd kick to the nads (ouch), I can understand what this thread is saying.

A hard strike to the windpipe is obviously out of the question. We either pull these short or lower the hitting area to the very top of the chest just below the neck. Blokes and lasses can take a hit here.

[Red5angel]

B&B, along with that idea we also do a lot of throat grabbing and I have come to understand, somewhat painfully, that the throat is a durable target. Striking is pretty much out of the question but some of my sparring partners like to grab the tendon on the side of the neck! You dig your thumb into one side of the larynx and grab the tendon and you have a nice hand hold to lead your opponent around with. Its painful, and I believe on a target that is not used to it, enough so to cause them to pause at great length to ponder what got them into this situation in the first place.
The other thing is that this is easier accomplished then it may at first seem. After a bout a year of practice it should be almost second nature. I used it effectively on a wrestling feind of mine going of rthe clinch once and he was shocked!

[Melanie]

Originally posted by Black and Blue


Coming to grips with a sensitive subject indeed! :)

At my club we train strikes to the chest, but more often than not use strikes to the head and neck. A fak sau to the side of the neck or a light palm/fist to the chin or cheek never hurt anyone... well, you know what I mean.

Having caught the odd kick to the nads (ouch), I can understand what this thread is saying.

A hard strike to the windpipe is obviously out of the question. We either pull these short or lower the hitting area to the very top of the chest just below the neck. Blokes and lasses can take a hit here.

Welcome to the forum Black and Blue :)

Nice to see more locals on the forum..especially so local to me anyway...

Interesting occupation to, I see you're a journalist...hmmm...

(Mels' mind goes into overload :D )

I look forward to seeing more of your input on the forum :)

[TheRover]

As a beginning Karate student, I too felt awkward about the contact involved with sparring against a woman. Especially when we got into throws and grappling situations. Do you know how I got over it?

A woman named Michelle made it clear that she would kick my butt raw if I held back any. As she was head student at the time, and I was in my first month of training, I didn't doubt her a bit.

The end result, I got over it with surprising speed. And I feel sorry for the poor fool who tries to grope uninvited on that karateka.

I needed to get beyond the chivalrous but chauvenistic idea that I have to protect a woman's virtue and body. I had to accept that if a woman wanted to be treated in a certain way, she was fully capable of making that clear. Were I an instructor, I suppose it would have been different. I would then be more responsible for letting my students know they should speak up.

Thanks, Michelle, for the lesson wherever you are.

BF

[Andy Murray]

An Article regarding Wing Chun by Jesse Glover (one of Bruce Lee's original students)

Article (http://www.alphalink.com.au/~bundles/JesseGlover.htm)

What do you think?

[Side-kick]

Can anyone with Wing Chun dummy experience tell me if they think the design of the dummy at this link will be negetivly affected by the base, - will the bases's design affect flank movments around the dummy and stepping in close to it. What do they think?
http://www.immortal.co.uk/freestand.html

[YODA]

I've had that very model from immortal for the past 3 years or so and had no problems with it's design. In fact I'd say I have a greater range of movement around it than a traditional wall mounted mook.

Forum member "Light Ng", a Wing Chun Sifu, has one too and seems to like it.

[Side-kick]

In a review of the book on the UK site of amazon.co.uk the following extract was made of Wing chun v JKD a comparason:

[One important point to note, though, is that there is a lot about JKD trapping (larp sao, pak sao, etc.) in the book, but Ted Wong has, as far as I am aware, since stopped teaching trapping very willingly as he (and many others) says that trapping will not work in a real fight, or even in proper sparring. ]


Is this credible? What do people think?

[Andy Murray]

Trapping as a sole tactic will not work in a real/sportreal fight. It's a momentary thing that 'may' come up if your opponent makes a mistake. If you've trained for it, you'll use it and deliver a knockout, or move on to another range/strategy.

A lot of people think they know about trapping, but in playing hands with them, they're clueless!

[Aleem]

Andy I have been training in Lau Gar Kungfu for about 19 months and when I go uni this september I plan on studying wing chun can you give me a insight of what to expect from wing chun. anyone?

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by Aleem
Andy I have been training in Lau Gar Kungfu for about 19 months and when I go uni this september I plan on studying wing chun can you give me a insight of what to expect from wing chun. anyone?

Hi Aleem,

I think it really depends on who's going to be teaching th class you attend. Like every other MA there is more bad than good Wing Chun to be found.

You're most likely to come across a spin off of Yip Mans Wing Chun, though there are up to about 12 other systems which are very different.

What you are most likely to encounter, is a close range striking system with a scientific approach to it's defensive structure and use of deflections. The core system only has three forms, each of which contain masses of partner drills and potential applications.
Most Instructors do very little kicking, and any kicks they use tend to be below the waist. boring I know, but it's practical.

If you've done Jorn Sau, Lau's second form, you'll see some similarities there.

[PoetWarrior]

I think the video about Siu lung tao above by Side-Kick about Michael Wong is in the Pan Nam style of Wing Chun. It would help if this was said so on the teaching material in the first place.

Does anyone know of any books on the Pan Nam style? Videos are best backed up with books if no teacher is available.

Amazon.co.uk has Michael Wongs dvds and teaching materials - can anyone else verify if his variation is Pan Nams style because his siu lung tao is not the style I see in books e.g. O'Neals book Siu lung tao the Begging Or in Why Wing Chun Works vol 1 by ??? Gibson?

[PoetWarrior]

in Wing Chun we have tan sau block and biu sau - do you think its possible to use biu sau in all circumstances instead of tan sau or do they have specific applications?

Biu sau looks more natural [arm comming out to block with palm down - bit like a Heil Hitler salute but with bit of bend in arm and more centralsied]. This can chop too while blocking maybe bit of hip twist in too

Tan sau - 'asking hand' - palm faces up to sky and arm goes along centre line and out very slightly maybe with hip twist

I may train dummy with all tan sau replaced by biu sau - what problems and possibilities will emerege?

[CKava]

Allo poet-warrior, welcome to MAP :) If i follow you correctly what you call a Biu Sau I would refer to as a Man Sau (just mentioning it on the off chance a Man Sau is something else, but I doubt it from the description).

First of all I would have to say I dont think its possible to just replace Tan Sau with Biu Sau and not lose anything as they act (as with most things in Wing Chun) in a complimentary fashion. Also, they both apply in rather different situations/functions so i dont think its really a good idea or for that matter possible to just replace one with the other.

To deal with the Tan Sau first, it can act defensively: as a turning block and it can act offensively by being used to invade the other persons centerline, now this isnt an attack in itself but it can act as a launching pad for other attacks. I suppose theres also an argument that it could be used as a finger strike attack but personally thats not what I use it for. Now to compare this with the Biu Sau it too can act defensively as quite a forceful and deflecting block and it can act offensively either as a forearm/elbow strike or as a launching pad for other offensive techniques. Now immediately it may seem like the two act in a similar way except the Biu Sau can be a direct attack and the Tan Sau acts in a bit more of an invasive way. But this would be severely simplifying the differences...

A major difference between the two is the fact that the elbow is out for the Biu Sau where as its down for the Tan Sau. The Tan Sau position then also provides a guard to the ribs and side where as the biu sau leaves you more open (but it is more offensive). The positioning of the elbow also influences what techniques the two flow into easily for example the Tan Sau is in an ideal position for centerline punching where as the Biu Sau can quickly flow into an elbow-backfist.

However all that being said personally from my own experience I've found that the Biu Sau is a much more practical technique- especially if your at any sort of distance or the person is quite proficient in punching BUT from having seen people better than me I believe it might be the case that the Tan Sau is just as effective as the Biu Sau but requires more time to be able to use in a practical way.

I wouldnt advise that you train your dummy (or anything else)without Tan Sau because as i said above it is an essential part of the system, its one of the most useful techniques for helping you get a sense of the whole centerline business, its very good for developing interception along the center line and its an incredibly useful technique for controlling and keeping contact with arms at close range, to name just a few benefits. Wing Chun is already quite a trimmed down style so in my opinion removing an elementary structure would be more harmful than beneficial.

[PoetWarrior]

Thanks for the considered reply. I didnt think about the relative elbow positions of the 2 techniques.
(I thought man sau was the name for the front-hand in the guard from which can become a punch or what ever technique at players choice - pah those Chinease names are trickey). Your description of biu sau looked accurate so I understand you.

In Jeet Kune Do books / videos I dont see much use of Tan Sau and thought they stripped it away as its 'classical'. I wondered if they think its not worth the effort. I suspect this maybe due to their fencing-stance ?! Dont know though.

[CKava]

It sounds like your on the right lines with the JKD thing but like you I'd have to admit I dont really know (maybe Ill go ask the JKD people if/why they don't make use of a Tan Sau).

Also, I have to agree about those pesky Chinese terms; Ive also heard a Man Sau/Biu Sau being called a Fak Sau, I wonder how many other terms there are...

[wcrevdonner]

Hello there everyone

Just a couple of points I'd like to make. As far as I understand, there are meant to be different versions of WC; however, the basic principals are the same. Centreline theory/simultaneous attack and defence/economy of motion. In general, what I think are referred to as different versions of WC, are actually the same, but the sifu/master of one wing chun will pass down the idiosyncrasies of himself down to his student.

In the article that Andy links to by Jesse Glover, I agree a lot with what he says. However, when you become proficient at a martial art then you learn to have your own idiosyncrasies that you pick up depending on your own physical attributes, (ie hand speed, height, weight, etc) as well as the timing. This is what initially would be the differences (IMO) between different wing chun 'styles.'

This is one of the aspects I love about Wing Chun. NO two people I have ever touched hands (done chi sao) with have felt the same. To me, as well as being a very practical drill and complete link for everything else in Wing Chun, chi sao is one of the ultimate ways to express yourself since everyone has different attributes for all the complicated variables of Chi Sao, and so when you 'spar' with someone in Chi Sao, although you are using wing chun techniques, you are also using your own body mechanics sub consiously to get that free strike. Its superb...

I could digress for hours on other aspects mentioned here but would not want to bore anyone more than I have done!!

Good training

wcrevdonner

[blackenedwings]

I have personally found Wing Chun to be very effective even with just over a year of training. Wing Chun has been taught to me as an incredibly direct and brutal fighting style, that does not concern itself with flowery motions but efficiency instead. This matches my personality well, so that is one of the reasons I like it.

I can't really think of something I dislike about the mechanics or principles of it...but I do dislike the rivalries/confusion between various lineages of Wing Chun/Ving Tsun.

[mushmellow]

I've only studied wing chun for about 6 months and have found it to be very efficient and 'anatomically suited'. Not having studied any other MA, i'm not sure how good a system it is compared to others however from what ive seen and heard, it is one of the most efficient, direct and practical styles. These thoughts probably wont help much :D.

[El Tejon]

black, I'm with you. What's all the squabbling and whining about? Makes the art look like a bunch of cry babies.

Just accept that WCK, because of history, has different "lines", try to learn from each other and move on.

[PoetWarrior]

Chum Kil : does anyone here perform / get taught the second form of Wing Chun is the same way as Dougals Wongs display in his book 'The deceptive hands of wing chun' ?
In this form where are the lap saus? I cant see them in the form there. Alan GIbson (2003) in Why Wing Chun Works 3 referes to Lap Saus in the second form - I was curious - was it the pictures do show them but they are masked.
Also has anyone seen Pan Nam style chium kiu - am I right in saying this ommits double Lan saus [square hacking elbows that look like folded arms held out in Wongs book]
I know forms differ etc. etc with in WC - I am just curious - I am not saying one is better than another etc. etc.

Something I do find difficult to interpret in Pan Nam style forms of WC is the 'fish' swaying movments of the hands in their forms essp. Hsiu Lung tao, I cannot think what that application is - I wonder if its chi kung at times

[zumtream]

Heh. I used to do Lau Gar Kung Fu but i too dropped it for Wing Tsun. WT is a lot more realistic and useful when it comes to steet fighting and thats why i find it so enjoyable. I've been doing it for about a year now and i'm learning under Sifu Lol Sulavan and Ross Sargent

[Andy Murray]

Hi Zumtream, and welcome to the forums.

Easy on the Lau Gar though mate, as standards vary hugely up and down the country.

Same's true for all MA though. ;)

[zumtream]

Yeah. Our club was mainly focusing on compitition fighting for semi contact. In my two years of doing it i only really did one lesson on street figthing. However i'm sure different clubs do different things and maybe in other Lau Gar clubs realistic street combat in focused on much more.

[goatnipples2002]

I just started learning WC on monday and today was my 2nd day. I train 1 on 1 with a guy who I met on the net. He trained in the EBMAS system for 2.5 years. Has anyone heard of this system? I have the first 4 sections of the 1st form down. Joe says I'm a fast learner, but he also says that I will need this form and the 2nd as a study guide or a reference for future moves is this true? We usaually practice about 2-3 hours and by the end my damn forearms wrists are tender and red (well kinda, I'm black). Is this usual? I have never had any formal training except this I just want to check in with you guys to make sure "Joe" isn't leading me down the wrong path. He tells me we do alot of stuff in the past 2 days the most schools only do in 2 months. He told me he has enough info to teach me for a year but at my rate only 6 months then I will need a sifu. Does this sound like **** or should I keep going. Oh yeah does anybody know how to step from the stance. It seems real hard to me.

[Hot Sauce]

Originally posted by goatnipples2002
I just started learning WC on monday and today was my 2nd day. I train 1 on 1 with a guy who I met on the net. He trained in the EBMAS system for 2.5 years. Has anyone heard of this system? I have the first 4 sections of the 1st form down. Joe says I'm a fast learner, but he also says that I will need this form and the 2nd as a study guide or a reference for future moves is this true? We usaually practice about 2-3 hours and by the end my damn forearms wrists are tender and red (well kinda, I'm black). Is this usual? I have never had any formal training except this I just want to check in with you guys to make sure "Joe" isn't leading me down the wrong path. He tells me we do alot of stuff in the past 2 days the most schools only do in 2 months. He told me he has enough info to teach me for a year but at my rate only 6 months then I will need a sifu. Does this sound like **** or should I keep going. Oh yeah does anybody know how to step from the stance. It seems real hard to me.

Hi, I train the Leung Ting Wing Tsun so my answers might not be 100% correct.

Yes I have heard of the EBMAS system. It is a modified version of the Leung Ting Wing Tsun System. The founder of the EBMAS system, Emin Boztepe, got kicked out of the organization and founded his own and added some stuff like the Muay Thai low kick. I don't know why he got kicked out, but there are lots of rumors circuling around the net. Boztepe was very high ranked before he got kicked out so he must be very good and so must his system be. My teacher studied under him and he says he is one of the best teachers he had.

The first form, Siu Nim Tao, is very important and it's vital that you try to learn how and why each move is made. It teaches you to counter other Martial Arts/Sports. As you wrote, the first and the second form is supposed to work "library of moves". You should practise the first form a lot in the beginning before you learn the second.

It is very common for new practioners to get tender and red on the forearm wrists. It will go over eventually. I'm asian and I had a lot of thoose annoying stuff when I first began with Wing Tsun

It seems that Joe know what he doing so if you think it's fun then you should continue.

Your knees must be pressed inwards, so if you lift one foot you would automatically go fowards. To step from the stance: Lets say that you want to step forward with the right foot then you have to do a clockwise movement sp that your foot will be on the centerline and then put it in front of you. The right leg will then drag left leg forward. After the step your upperbody should be
pointed forward and both of your foots should be pointed 45 degrees to the left from you front and you weight should be on the rear foot, the left.

I hope you understand, my english isn't the best.
Feel free to ask more questions, if anything is unclear.

[CKava]

Hot Sauce gave a pretty thorough reply there so theres not really much Ill add. However, just for a second opinion Ill mention, that Ive heard of EBMAS too and as HS says its Emin Boztepe's system; from what Ive heard (and I must admit its second hand knowledge) they concentrate quite a lot on the 'hard' aspects of Wing Chun. But that being said Emin is an exceptional Wing Chun sifu and I think his system is probably very practical and again from what I hear attempts to address some of the things which may be lacking in traditional Wing Chun training (groundfighting, heavy contact sparring etc).

Oh and as HS previously mentioned bruising/tenderness of the arms is quite common when your starting Wing Chun especially if your doing any sort of conditoning drills, so I wouldnt worry about that. And yes learn the forms though Id recommend you spend a long time on the first one (Siu Nim Tao) before you move on to the second (Chum Kiu). Think of the first form as the foundations of your house, its no good adding on a second floor to your house if you have shoddy foundations because it will fall down :D

[blackenedwings]

Emin Boztepe is pretty (in)famous in the MA community for his attack on my Grandmaster, William Cheung in Cologne in 1986. Bitter history aside, I have seen some video demonstrations of Boztepe that were very impressive. Although I don't know a lot about the EBMAS system, I think you can probably pick up a great deal of good information.

In the end, I have been taught that Wing Chun consists of principles... any MA that uses those priciples is by definition Wing chun. If your current teacher is not a full instructor, I do recommend investigating a local Kwoon that could teach the full system. If you learn something in the fundementals incorrectly then it can effect the entire rest of your study.

[Hot Sauce]

A side note to the previous message,
William Cheung challenged everyone and he claimed that he was the best Wing Chun practioner, Emin Boztepe just accepted the challange and confronted him at one of Cheung's seminars.

[goatnipples2002]

Originally posted by Hot Sauce
A side note to the previous message,
William Cheung challenged everyone and he claimed that he was the best Wing Chun practioner, Emin Boztepe just accepted the challange and confronted him at one of Cheung's seminars.


William said he was the best WC master in the world and Boztepe bloodied his nose and threw him down. Boztepe was only 22 then. I think that was very chilish to say you are the best at anything because like I was taught "there is always somebody out there bigger and badder", I hope he is more humble these days.

And "Joe Smoe" was a direct student of Boztepe and asked him permission to teach me since he is not a Sifu, but he is my "Sifu". Boztepe got kicked out because of money and power.

[goatnipples2002]

Is there any site better than this?

http://www.edberger-wingchun.com/WingChun%20Multimedia.htm

"Joe" went to TX this week to meet up with some EBMAS people and I'm going to a Boztepe seminar with him in march. He also gave me the wing tsun kuen by lueng ting to read and help with my form. He has an 85 version is the one I see all over the net the same? B/C I can't seem to find the one he let me use. I'm talkin bout the one everybody says "is the WC bible"?

[Hot Sauce]

Originally posted by goatnipples2002
Is there any site better than this?

http://www.edberger-wingchun.com/WingChun%20Multimedia.htm

"Joe" went to TX this week to meet up with some EBMAS people and I'm going to a Boztepe seminar with him in march. He also gave me the wing tsun kuen by lueng ting to read and help with my form. He has an 85 version is the one I see all over the net the same? B/C I can't seem to find the one he let me use. I'm talkin bout the one everybody says "is the WC bible"?

http://www.wingtsunlinks.com/

Video Clips:
http://w1.131.comhem.se/~u13115935/video.htm

The book "Wing Tsun Kuen" by Leung Ting is the so called WT Bible. There are basically two versions of it, the chinese and the non-chinese. You probably have the later one.

[goatnipples2002]

Originally posted by Hot Sauce
[URL]The book "Wing Tsun Kuen" by Leung Ting is the so called WT Bible. There are basically two versions of it, the chinese and the non-chinese. You probably have the later one.

I have the old one, are the new one and the old the same?

[Hot Sauce]

Originally posted by goatnipples2002
I have the old one, are the new one and the old the same? Not exactly, The new one is probably a new edition so the content should be the same.

[blackenedwings]

I don't claim to know everything about what happened, but have read quite a bit about the incident with Boztepe.

As far as "confronting him at his seminar"... Boztepe interrupted a private WC seminar, pushed through the crowd, and jumped William Cheung while he was in the middle of teaching. As I recall Cheung wasn't even facing Boztepe when he attacked.

In the end I think Boztepe is a very talented martial artist, and there is a great deal that can be learned from his martial skill... but that incident was no formal response to a challenge. Despite the hype associated with the incident, I don't know too many people impressed with Boztepe for jumping someone from behind during a seminar. That is the last example I feel a martial artist should be trying to follow.

I also agree that nobody should claim to be the "best" at anything, because there is always someone better. Being proud of your progress is wonderful, but becoming cocky is foolish. My Sifu has always instructed me this way, and having met Grandmaster Cheung... he possessed a similar attitude when I met him. He impressed me vastly with both his skill and temperment.

[Hot Sauce]

There are a couple of versions of what happened. The video of the fight doesn't show how the fight begins so there is no ultimate truth here. Anyway here is another version of what happened:

William Cheung challenged everyone to duel him anytime anywhere. He also insulted a couple of dead people including the late Bruce Lee. When he insulted Leung Ting, Boztepe decided to visit Cheung when he was in Germany to hold a seminar. Boztepe went there with a few other WT practicioners and said something like " ....I accept you challenge" to Cheung and then started to fight.

[goatnipples2002]

Originally posted by Hot Sauce
William Cheung challenged everyone to duel him anytime anywhere. He also insulted a couple of dead people including the late Bruce Lee. When he insulted Leung Ting, Boztepe decided to visit Cheung when he was in Germany to hold a seminar. Boztepe went there with a few other WT practicioners and said something like " ....I accept you challenge" to Cheung and then started to fight.


That sounds more like the truth. However it went down it really has no bearing on my training. I keep reading that this wing chun thing is the easiest art to pick up and the most effective. I just keep getting discouraged with this weird as foot work. I like the kali footwork much better. I'll learn it this way then adapt it to me, kinda like a Kali Wing Chun fusion on the footwork. I guess it takes hard work and dedication. I wish someone around here taught Jeet Kune Do, I'd enjoy that more

[blackenedwings]

WC footwork is actually very simplistic, very few types of movements... but it feels very awkward for quite a while until you become used to the stances. The side neutral stance for example left me feeling -very- exposed and vulnerable for a long time. I would even have difficulty with the front lead stance, gradually shifting my rear foot behind my lead foot into a traditional Kenpo side stance. When you get used to turning your hips forwards, and bending your knees inwards the footward itself will feel much more natural.

[goatnipples2002]

Originally posted by blackenedwings
WC footwork is actually very simplistic, very few types of movements... but it feels very awkward for quite a while until you become used to the stances. The side neutral stance for example left me feeling -very- exposed and vulnerable for a long time. I would even have difficulty with the front lead stance, gradually shifting my rear foot behind my lead foot into a traditional Kenpo side stance. When you get used to turning your hips forwards, and bending your knees inwards the footward itself will feel much more natural.

Would standing in the "two " stance for an hour a day help. I lift weights and I'm about to stop squating because that stance is enough of a work out. I can squat 315 for 5sets/10reps but I stand in the stance for 20 minutes and thats more of a workout. I'm not going to give up. What should I do?

[blackenedwings]

The stance won't begin to feel natural until you get your muscle memory to accept it, so I have learned a few ways to help with this.

If you watch tv, or play guitar or any other activity that doesn't require moving from one place, do that activity while in stance. For example when I started WC, I would watch an hour of tv after work while standing in a front neutral position.

Your feet should be slightly apart from your shoulders, then bend your knees in firmly. For training the inwards bend to the knees should be exaggerated. Your pelvis should be thrust forward with your back straight. Pull your arms back with your closed fists at your side without touching your body. Standing like this for an hour is extremely uncomfortable at first but will train your muscles very well.

Doing footwork drills without worrying about hand movements helps build the basic footwork/stances also.

[goatnipples2002]

kinda thought thats what I would have to do. Thanks. I've been lazy the last 3 days, just letting my body heal and trying to come up with a work out that revovles around my WC. I also hit my iron palm bag with my one knuckle punch every morning. When I learn to chain punch with my one knuckle punch that's when I will love WC. :eek: :D ;)

[white_sash]

i quit it becuase i was annoyed of all the lineage wars and politics

[goatnipples2002]

Originally posted by white_sash
i quit it becuase i was annoyed of all the lineage wars and politics

i learn from a non biased source. But you are right though. bunch of men acting like girls.

[white_sash]

Originally posted by goatnipples2002
i learn from a non biased source. But you are right though. bunch of men acting like girls.

yes,
i thought the style was great, it gave me a boost while i did it.
3 hours of pure hard work , but i could see my self using the system. then when ever anyone asked me why i did it with a certain lineage i would just sigh. it always happens on the interent too
so i decided to just become a judo wrestler so they would all leave me alone!!:D

[goatnipples2002]

i've been at it STRONG for 2 days:D . No really I just started this past monday. What tips do you have for me. None of that stick with it or train hard type stuff. Details and insights you wouldn't know unless you were in WC.

[white_sash]

well, from my own experince, i think it is important you listen to what your instructor is saying.
what i mean is that one of the great things about WC is that most of the form movements have a purpose(maybe all of them)
my instructor uesd to hammer me about why we were doing things, but sometimes i didnt listen, and i would regret it cause i would lose the gyst of wing chun(about the angling and the positioning)
cause after all it is a very scientific art
also when you are outside the dojo, make sure you do some press ups on your own. about 60 every 2 days is good.
also i would ecoomened weight training, cause i think if you are physically stronger, you will be able to hurt someone more.

another thing you might wanna do after a few years of practise, is cross training. depeneding on your oreintation( i dont know whether your a traditionalist " stick to one martial art" or not) but i think that we are in the 21st century so the way we train should be to get the best from everything
for example i think that judo is an excellent complement to wing chun cause it covers ground work extensivly
i recomoned you get a good base in wing chun first before you cross train though.

[blackenedwings]

white_sash is right... WC is a very scientific art, and even though you might not understand the why of things, start by the doing, and then ask questions and try absorb the knowledge from your teacher.

The biggest piece of advice I can offer for WC is do -not- practice specific techniques. Even if you go to class and your Sifu has you doing Tan sao/Chum choi against an opponent who is throwing a straight punch... the purpose of the exercise is not to drill a technique you should remember, but to express certain principles. So going home and practicing Tan sao/chum choi against a straight punch isn't what you are meant to pick up from the exercise. Think in broad concepts like:

What is my weight distribution like?

Can I simultaneously use both of my hands in this position?

Does my opponent have to change his position to effectively attack me?

Am I protecting my centerline?


Eventually you will master the basics of how to do execute the basic strikes and blocks... then you will automatically put them in place to protect certain gates and strike. You will never have to try to remember a technique in combat... just principles.

[goatnipples2002]

thank you, oh yeah.....why the hell don't they have a WC section in the styles part of this forum. Is it not important?

[Andy Murray]

Would sir like me to make him a cold drink, while he peruses the forum this evening? :D

[mushmellow]

i would like a cold drink...... :P

[mushmellow]

i apologise for my stupid post above, but i do think a wing chun section would be a good idea seeing as it seems to be a very popular martial art.

as for wing chun lineage, IMHO it does have some notable differences for example william cheungs approach may seem very different and, how shall i put it, *questionable* to some practitioners. The instructor will probably teach you most of what wing chun you know so it is important to understand what difference lineages offer is it not?

i am very unexperienced in the martial arts world so if anything i have said is stupid or just wrong, please tell me! :D

[Andy Murray]

Wing Chun is just one of many styles of Kung Fu.

Were this site purely for CMA this might be possible, but it has always been the idea to keep this site as multi-martial as possible.

If you've got time to get involved in Martial Politics, Talk Fu, you ain't training hard enough. ;)

[CKava]

Originally posted by white_sash
i quit it becuase i was annoyed of all the lineage wars and politics White Sash thats unfortunate to hear you gave up on Wing Chun if I remember your previous posts you seemed quite taken with it. Politics and all that jazz exist in every style that has humans practicing it but I think its an entirely your own choice how caught up you get in the whole thing. Even if your club isnt particularly open/friendly with other lineages it doesnt mean you cant be...
:originally posted by blackened wings
The biggest piece of advice I can offer for WC is do -not- practice specific techniques. I dont think I would agree with this, I think ideally (and eventually) it will be the principles and not the techniques that govern your Wing Chun but a very, very necessary step, especially in the beginning, is to repeatedly practice techniques. Otherwise you would not develop a very strong structure and without a good structure you dont have much... Someone who has practiced and can realistically use one technique and doesnt yet know the principles is in a better position than someone who knows all the principles but cannot perform any technique realistically.

[white_sash]

Its not the world, its the people in it ;)

[goatnipples2002]

trained with "Joe" again, I am startin to really like WT. I see what I was blind to. The pak sao/punch/elbow that is very effective. He also gave another book to read. called "On Single Defense" or something like that but I think that's wrong. I am at school right now so I'll find out the actual name when I go home. The only thing I can say bad about WT is that there realy isn't any lethal attacks.

I feel that WT+One knuckle punch+Qin Na+some form of ground fighting= A complete UNARMED combat system (or style).

And why hit with the whole surface of your fist. I hit with my knuckles because when you punch at the center line with a vertical punch it's only natural to make contact with the knuckle only.

I still have a love for this system it just needs a Goat's touch, because I adapt it to the streets.

[CKava]

And why hit with the whole surface of your fist. I hit with my knuckles because when you punch at the center line with a vertical punch it's only natural to make contact with the knuckle only.Any Wing Chun punch Ive ever seen hits majoritively with the bottom two or three knuckles, not the whole surface of your fist. This is also the way the punches are taught in WT- or at least at any WT school Ive ever seen (WT being what EBMAS comes from), so personally Id suggest you question 'joe' why he chooses to hit with his whole fist because it isn't something common to Wing Chun.

As for the comment on lethal attacks, if thats your thing there is a form completely choc a block full of finger strikes and the like; Bil Jee, the third form. You just dont typically learn it straight away. But personally I dont put much faith in single knuckle/finger death strikes; its too hollywood Kung Fu for my liking but each to their own.

I feel that WT+One knuckle punch+Qin Na+some form of ground fighting= A complete UNARMED combat system (or style).Wing Chun is a complete unarmed combat system. Cross training is always useful but if you take Emin as an example he has experience in boxing, wrestling, muay thai and so on (if i remember correctly) but he still advocates learning specifically Wing Tsun. He doesnt believe it is necessary to train in these styles to be able to deal with them. I suppose the best way to put it is theres a danger of being a 'Jack of all trades and master of none'. BUT while I believe Wing Chun is a complete fighting system as I said I think corsstraining is indeed useful so good luck to ya :)

[Disciple]

I don't practice wing chun, but from every thing I have ever read or talked to anyone about the punch only consists of 3 knuckles... but I think that is what he means by whole fist.... I mean, physically, if you can make a good solid fist, you can't hit with all four knuckles... You can get some pressure on them, but not as focus points merely b/c of how your midle knuckle protrudes, lol.

[CKava]

Hmmm maybe Disciple but a "one knuckle punch" to me suggests using one knuckle...

For anyone interested there was quite a lot of discussion on which knuckles/part of the hand it is best to hit with in this thread http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5915

[zumtream]

One knuckle? As in moving your top finger slightly forward so it hits first? If this is what you mean then don't do it. It is very easy to break your finger doing it. All your knuckles should be equal and able to morph around your opponents face. This is done by keeping it slightly loose.

[goatnipples2002]

let me clasify my self please.....

I don't practice under Emin Boztepe and I don't claim to, I practice with a guy I call "Joe", who is a student of Emin Boztepe for 2 years. I have only practiced wing chun for 3 3 hour sessions with Joe. I take what is useful and adapt it to my arsenal of SELF DEFENSE. I studied a lot of arts and the philosophy, startegies and the basis for the unique and individual techniques of each art. EVERY art has some good as well as some bads. Some are more contemporary others more traditional. Of all these I picked up what would be life safe saving as well as what would work if being attacked in a multiple attatcker situation. No sport, any art that derived as a sport was discredited to a certain degree because they seem not to teach lethal techniques. I would believe because these arts were not derived out of the need for survival.

The one knuckle punch can be a very damaging in the VERY LEAST! Just like ANY other weapon without proper conditioning you will cause more damage to yourself than you attacker. BUT with proper conditioning you can deliver a fatal hit with just HALF the force of a vertical punch. I got this from Kare-te, 1 hit 1 kill. From what I read "You haven't learned proper Kara-te if you have to hit your attacker more than once". The one knuckle punch is like a higher level of Kara-te. It was once only taught to the older masters that entered the age of like 45+. It was once called "Old man's" Kara-te. As they got older they no longer could fight with muscle so they had to fight with their minds. Through conditioning they learned to hit a person in such a way to leave no external bruising yet cause major internal damage. That is one "old school" tech that I will never part with. If I practice now then I won't hace to practice later:D . I have a personal program if you have Q's. I hit with my Botom 3 knuckles during vertical punches.


Yeah there are finger strikes in wing chun but I personally don't like finger strikes, there is very little support of the fingers and you can break it very easily without conditioning and I use my conditioning time to train my one knuckle punch. I'm not saying you have to do this just explaining myself. I don't call this wing chun, I call it "Save my ass one day'.


About the striking surface of the fist I see a lot of people on the net and in magazines and I went to a ving tsun school and they hit that way. That was the first and last time I went there! If you vertical punch at the center line it is damn near impossible to hit with the whole front surface of your hands unless you bend your wrist instead of keeping it straight with your forearm.

I won't EVER claim to master an art but I will master how to keep me safe on these crazy streets. I don't hang out in the best of places so I have to adapt to my situation. Crosstraining stops ME from being a 1 dimesional fighter. You can't dictate a fight so be prepared so you don't have to get prepared. Meaning You don't know if you might slip on some ice and go to the ground or you might be fighting 5 guys. If your fights are predictable than you're in hollywood!


Why learn non-lethal or non-bone/joint breaking techs, That's not self defense that's sport. Non-lethal or non-bone/joint breaking techs only take up space and waste memory cells. That's just my thinking. I often ask people "yeah that might work against Joe shmoe but what about against a Meth addict or a person who doesn't feel pain?" My answer, "You start breaking bones and joints".


Each warrior has there own paths. Some paths may blend like the wind. Others will seperate like earth and sky- Goatman

[zumtream]

The one knuckle punch can be a very damaging in the VERY LEAST! Just like ANY other weapon without proper conditioning you will cause more damage to yourself than you attacker. BUT with proper conditioning you can deliver a fatal hit with just HALF the force of a vertical punch. I got this from Kare-te, 1 hit 1 kill. From what I read "You haven't learned proper Kara-te if you have to hit your attacker more than once".

Why would you want to use a fatal strike? Killing someone in a street fight is possibly the worst thing you can do. I learn martial arts to defend myself but also i want to do it with causing the least amount of damage to my opponent. I would much prefer to talk my way out of a confrontation than fight my way out. This way no one getsa hurt. I will only use force when nessasary and ussally then i will only use palm strikes which A: Get me in less trouble with the law and B: Wont do as much damage to my opponent but will ussally make him fall to the floor or bakc of.

It was once only taught to the older masters that entered the age of like 45+. It was once called "Old man's" Kara-te. As they got older they no longer could fight with muscle so they had to fight with their minds. Through conditioning they learned to hit a person in such a way to leave no external bruising yet cause major internal damage. That is one "old school" tech that I will never part with.

I'm still interested in this one knuckle punch. Are you putting your top knuckle forward a little? And surely it is better to use your more knuckles because then you have a much larger projectile that will damage more of the oppoent.

About the striking surface of the fist I see a lot of people on the net and in magazines and I went to a ving tsun school and they hit that way. That was the first and last time I went there! If you vertical punch at the center line it is damn near impossible to hit with the whole front surface of your hands unless you bend your wrist instead of keeping it straight with your forearm.

Surface? Do you mean backfist? If you do then i agree. I hate back fist strikes. They don't attack along the centre line and are reativly slow. Also the back fist isn't as tough as the knuckles so getting a broken hand is much easier.

Why learn non-lethal or non-bone/joint breaking techs, That's not self defense that's sport. Non-lethal or non-bone/joint breaking techs only take up space and waste memory cells. That's just my thinking. I often ask people "yeah that might work against Joe shmoe but what about against a Meth addict or a person who doesn't feel pain?" My answer, "You start breaking bones and joints"

No. Breaking joints and leathal technquies are a stupid thing to learn if your are just learning for basic self defence. There is nothing worse than some kid who learns a MA for a few months and is taugh how to break and arm then uses it against a bully at school or something. Then the Law gets involved and the club could be shut down. Stuff like this should only be taught at very high levels or taught to special forces/army etc.
Even if you do come across someone high on drugs then you don't have an excuse to break there arm or kill them. Even if they don't feel pain they are still going to go down after a good few punchs/kicks/palm strikes. There body just wouldn't let them stand up. Sure it may take a little more than your average joe but eventually they will go down.

[goatnipples2002]

Originally posted by zumtream
Why would you want to use a fatal strike? Killing someone in a street fight is possibly the worst thing you can do. I learn martial arts to defend myself but also i want to do it with causing the least amount of damage to my opponent. I would much prefer to talk my way out of a confrontation than fight my way out. This way no one getsa hurt. I will only use force when nessasary and ussally then i will only use palm strikes which A: Get me in less trouble with the law and B: Wont do as much damage to my opponent but will ussally make him fall to the floor or bakc of.

This is YOUR point of view. I respect that, but I will never agree. You use the word opponent, I don't train for opponents I train for attackers. You can say they are the same but in all reality they cause two different thoughts in peoples heads. Like this "3 opponents raped that girl" See what I mean? If someone is to attack me I am going to hurt them. I DON'T CARE ABOUT THEM IF THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT ME. I don't car about a court case in that type of situation. I might not use deadly force, but I will try to break/dislocate something. I grew up in the city were there are rapes, murders and robberies all the time, that's why I moved to NE. I 've also been to prison where people don't talk it out. Try to talk it out in my old neighborhood or with somebody that has a prison mentality see how far that gets you. Not to pass judgement but you sound like you come from a peaceful environment, I don't. I've lived in the projects and in other "low income areas". So basically you should take up track instead of MA. Not to be an a$$hole, but I will. What will you do when somebody's trying to kill you with their bare hands.....TALK?


Originally posted by zumtream
I'm still interested in this one knuckle punch. Are you putting your top knuckle forward a little? And surely it is better to use your more knuckles because then you have a much larger projectile that will damage more of the oppoent.
I thought everybody knows that putting 15psi through a dime sized weapon will inflict more damage than 15psi through a softball sized weapon. Less nerves taking on the same amount of force, we can talk about that if you don't understand, I;ve done my homework and yours. Come on your a martial artist you should know this. Use the search and type my name you'll find answers about the 1 knuckle punch, search the web too. Phoenix eye conditioning, it's VERY informative.

Originally posted by zumtream
Surface? Do you mean backfist? If you do then i agree. I hate back fist strikes. They don't attack along the centre line and are reativly slow. Also the back fist isn't as tough as the knuckles so getting a broken hand is much easier.
I meant something totaly different and I don't feel like explaining.


Originally posted by zumtream
No. Breaking joints and leathal technquies are a stupid thing to learn if your are just learning for basic self defence. There is nothing worse than some kid who learns a MA for a few months and is taugh how to break and arm then uses it against a bully at school or something. Then the Law gets involved and the club could be shut down. Stuff like this should only be taught at very high levels or taught to special forces/army etc.
Even if you do come across someone high on drugs then you don't have an excuse to break there arm or kill them. Even if they don't feel pain they are still going to go down after a good few punchs/kicks/palm strikes. There body just wouldn't let them stand up. Sure it may take a little more than your average joe but eventually they will go down.
All I can say about this is that I'm no kid. BASIC SELF DEFENSE IS USELESS AGAINST REAL LIFE THREATENING SITUATIUONS. Tell this to my friend who got raped when she was walking her dog. Or my friend who got robbbed my a crank head. Wake up the world ain't peaches and cream. Maybe where you live but no where I've been. I'm a realist, I train for REAL siuations.


Botton line.....
I have insulted you a few times and I apologize, but when I hear some of things you say I think of my friends who said the samething. I feel that you are too nice. That's just my opinion. I'm just screwed in the head. If you attack me I WILL hurt you, the only thought that goes through my head is, HOW BAD WILL I HURT YOU. I don't care about a COURT case for excessive force because in NE. if I feel MY PHYSICAL WELL BEING IS IN JEOPARDY I HAVE THE RIGHT TO DEFEND MYSELF! I accept that right.


MY SIG IS FOR YOU.....

Each warrior has their own path.... Some paths may join like the wind.... Others will seperate like earth and sky - Goatman

I think violence is the answer and you think talking in out will help. Neither is the answer the middle area is the answer but I won't change. Can we put this past us and talk about training. Maybe even how to condition your Phoenix eye (kung fu) or Ippon ken or tiger's tooth (kara-te)

[YODA]

Oh my - what an angry young man! :rolleyes:

I can almost smell the testosterone from here.

[goatnipples2002]

Originally posted by YODA
Oh my - what an angry young man! :rolleyes:

I can almost smell the testosterone from here.

yes I am but I understand how rough the streets can be and how far people will go to get some money....rape you...rob you...or even kill you. Come on YODA you know this.

really though not angry or mad just misunderstood. Going to the honda forum now, it's less blood bubbling.

Just though of a new piece for my sig.....

Your mental training is the product of your environments and experiences,
Your physical training is the sum of your environments and experiences -- Goatman

[fluffydoc]

I think violence is the answer and you think talking in out will help. Neither is the answer the middle area is the answer but I won't change.

All confrontations are different. Sometimes there is scope for talking your way out a situation. Sometimes it's totally obvious that nothing you say is going to make any difference and a fight's going to kick off.

If you are being attacked you need options for dealing with different folk. OK, if you think your attacker poses a serious threat to you then do what it takes to get out of there. But do you really want to break that confused little old lady's arm when she starts hitting you because she thinks you're going to harm her?


Also zumtream, you can use a backfist as a centreline attack - after a bong and lap to clear their punch.

[goatnipples2002]

Originally posted by fluffydoc
All confrontations are different. Sometimes there is scope for talking your way out a situation. Sometimes it's totally obvious that nothing you say is going to make any difference and a fight's going to kick off.
You are totally right, but I don't get into yelling matches. When people (usually it's plural) confront me it's time for business. I don't get involved in "debates". If they attempt to get within arms/legs reach I WILL attack. Anything outside of that is just trying to look tough. I don't argue I let them know I'm on the same page then It's their move. In order to walk away you have to turn your back to a potential attacker and I NEVER try to turn my back to any attack. And in order for someone to talk to you they gotta be within arm/leg distance, with me that's me "bubble". Break my "bubble" and I will attempt to break your ass in half.


Originally posted by fluffydoc
If you are being attacked you need options for dealing with different folk. OK, if you think your attacker poses a serious threat to you then do what it takes to get out of there. But do you really want to break that confused little old lady's arm when she starts hitting you because she thinks you're going to harm her?
WHAT are you talking about some old lady? I would have to do something for some old lady to wanna hit me, all I do to old ladies is hold the door and complement there perfume or hair.


I don't have an anger problem. I'm usually preoccupied talking to girls. I know when to get tough and when to be humble. I just have no remorse for ANYBODY trying to harm me in any way. They should have thought about the consequences before they tried to attack me. I don't discriminate, I'm an equal opportunity type of guy :D .

[Kenshin Himura]

Use your powers to defend not to destroy.
Don't look for an excuse to use your anger.
I DON'T SAY YOU DO...
But think about it.

;) :)

DO NOT BECOME LIKE YOUR ATTACKERS YOU ARE MORE THAN THAT!!!


Yoda: Multiple posts combined. Please use the edit button if you've forgotten to add something

[Adam]

yeah, fear leads to anger, anger leads to suffering, that is the way of the dark side!

[Kenshin Himura]

You could say that also. :)

[zumtream]

I thought everybody knows that putting 15psi through a dime sized weapon will inflict more damage than 15psi through a softball sized weapon. Less nerves taking on the same amount of force, we can talk about that if you don't understand, I;ve done my homework and yours. Come on your a martial artist you should know this. Use the search and type my name you'll find answers about the 1 knuckle punch, search the web too. Phoenix eye conditioning, it's VERY informative.

http://home.earthlink.net/~mikekirk/1knuckle.jpg

This you mean? I still think these punchs are risky. The weight/area advantage that this sort of punch is hardly going to matter to much in a fight but it is also very risky in a fight. Your finger could easily be broken.

And i don't come from the toughest background like you say you have. My area isn't full of crack heads and murders. However it's not what you would call "tranquile".
I do care about what happens to me if i break someone arm. I don't want to go to jail or get sued. I will only use pysical defence if there is deffinatly no other way around it. And i advise you think more carefully about your approach to defence. Not an insult. Just some advice.

[goatnipples2002]

Originally posted by zumtream
[B
This you mean? I still think these punchs are risky. The weight/area advantage that this sort of punch is hardly going to matter to much in a fight but it is also very risky in a fight. Your finger could easily be broken.
[/B]

That is the wrong fist structure. Think what you want that fist will drop even the biggest attacker. Yes, you are right it is weak and can break easily IF UNCONDITIONED........IF UNCONDITIONED! I didn't mean to be judemental, but I only meant that if you ever face some real attackers trying to take your life you better take there's first and BASIC self defense won't be very effective.

Here is that thread- http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1844&perpage=15&pagenumber=5

Read the whole thing it's kinda long but good. Imperial guardz has somethings to say on there that you should read.

I am not an angry person, but from everything I've read in most arts you are to be humble but when you attack you attack like a mother tiger protecting her cubs. I unleash everything. Doesn't mean I let emotions take over just training takes over.

I don't care who you are, if you try to attack me then I will try to attack you first and with all my might (well except my friends and when I'm playing around). Even little old ladies and toddlers :D LOL J/J. I'm a very cool person I just don't put up with people going around attacking innocent people. I HOPE they come pick on this "innocent" person. Then I get to see the tiger's tooth in action.

[fluffydoc]

Originally posted by goatnipples2002
1.You are totally right, but I don't get into yelling matches. When people (usually it's plural) confront me it's time for business. I don't get involved in "debates".


2.WHAT are you talking about some old lady? I would have to do something for some old lady to wanna hit me, all I do to old ladies is hold the door and complement there perfume or hair.


1. Yelling matches and debates don't defuse situations, I'd never suggest either. Sometimes remaining calm, keeping your voice normal, relaxed posture etc. will help stop a situation kicking off while in the early stages was my point.

2. I did say a confused little old lady - she'd have to be to want to attack a charmer like you;)
I was trying to think of the most obvious example of someone you wouldn't want to hurt if they attacked you.

Cheers.

[5150]

I never thought I would say this phrase but "I agree w/ goatnipples". Sometimes talking is just not an option. Try telling that to someone who was beat because somebody wanted to get into a gang, and was their initiation was to go kick the hell out of some innocent person. Tell that victim that they should have been more diplomatic. It’s only one example that I can think of right now, and I’m not saying that all fights are started that way. However I think it’s ignorant to not arm yourself with the ability to handle all situations because no matter how nice of an area or how well you can articulate your positive intentions some people just don’t care and are looking for fights. Is not the point of MA to protect yourself? Just my opinion I’m not making any personal attacks on anyone, just trying to show a different point of view.

[white_sash]

well guys, im gonna go back to wing chun cause i miss it, and im gonna shut my ears when ever people tell me about politics
now to remember them san saus :rolleyes:

[goatnipples2002]

Originally posted by 5150
I never thought I would say this phrase but "I agree w/ goatnipples".

Who are you I've never heard your name before, so how can you say this? (refering to quote)


Most people don't agree with me on this forum, but people with my mentaltity understand me completely.

I used to hustle in the streets, so the streets is what I prepare. I've also went to prison (from 18-21) and I don't brag about this. I give these examples so people will understand what my mentality is, but I keep forgeting that they weren't there so they wouldn't understand that mentality. I didn't start in some dojo I started in the streets.

I feel that if "Person A" and "Person B" both trained, but A was from the streets or faced some form of personal unarmed combat, "A" will be 10 steps ahead of "B" because A understands what is called of him/her in actual combat. It's not about the physical training it's about the psychological factors of fighting.

The 1st time is scary, but by your 100th time you feel at home. Training with pads is not even a close comparison. I'm not discrediting anyone, but you build a false sense of security in your skills when you claim to master something yet it has never saved your life or defended you in a non-dojo setting! My perfect example of this is that kid in school who was supposed to be a "whatever" belt in "whatever", yet he got his ass whooped in a real fight. He MIGHT have had the skills but his mind was not psychologically ready.

(This is just a question for ANYBODY to think about!)
All I want to know is why do you give yourself a false sense of reality by thinking basic and non lethal techs will save your ass?

[goatnipples2002]

Started back at my tiger's tooth aka phoenix eye training. It's going Grrrrrrrreat!

[fluffydoc]

Originally posted by goatnipples2002
(This is just a question for ANYBODY to think about!)
All I want to know is why do you give yourself a false sense of reality by thinking basic and non lethal techs will save your ass?

I don't. If my ass needed saving I'd use whatever was necessary. Unless, of course, I totally froze up. I've only had a few experiences of being attacked for real.
I like to know other techniques for situations where my ass is OK. That's maybe not relevant for how you live but it's something I need for my work.

[CKava]

I dont see that being capable and prepared to defend yourself requires having the attitude "If anyone dares mess with me Im gonna show them that Im the baddest **** they ever crossed". Personally, Ive found that having that sort of attitude has very little to do with being a dangerous person and alot to do with trying to convince people (and yourself) that you are. In my own experience, the most capable and dangerous people I've met dont spend half their time talking about how they can break bones in a second or take on 7 attackers at once, in fact they generally dont talk about how great they are at all... I think its called quietly confident :) So it seems to me that people that know are quietly confident and people that think they know want to tell everyone....

Oh and Whitesash good to hear your returning to the light side :D Good luck!

[blackenedwings]

goatnipples2002 I agree with much of what you said... I think that if I had to pick between two guys to have my back in a fight on the street, one with a black belt and years of training but no real life experience, and another guy with no training, but he has been scrapping on the street since he was a kid... it wouldn't even be a contest. I would pick the scrapper without a second thought.

The mental toughness, the ability to move smoothly when your body is flooded with adrenaline, the ability to take a hit and keep moving... those are worth a great deal of training.

On the flip side however, I think that a trained MA who has learned that same mental toughness will be much more effective than the scrapper, even if said scrapper has had more street fights. Training and skill shouldn't be underestimated either. That mental toughness is just required before a MA can really exercise that skill in a fight successfully I think.

[white_sash]

Oh and Whitesash good to hear your returning to the light side :D Good luck! [/B][/QUOTE]
cheers :D

[goatnipples2002]

Originally posted by CKava
I dont see that being capable and prepared to defend yourself requires having the attitude "If anyone dares mess with me Im gonna show them that Im the baddest **** they ever crossed". Personally, Ive found that having that sort of attitude has very little to do with being a dangerous person and alot to do with trying to convince people (and yourself) that you are. In my own experience, the most capable and dangerous people I've met dont spend half their time talking about how they can break bones in a second or take on 7 attackers at once, in fact they generally dont talk about how great they are at all... I think its called quietly confident :) So it seems to me that people that know are quietly confident and people that think they know

I am not talking about boasting how good one is because i am very humble towards that issue. I was trying to say that you may train for a lifetime but it will have no meaning because your mind will not be able to handle the adrenaline overload or "shock" of personal unarmed combat. It takes conditioing of the mind to defend yourself properly when an aggressive attacker is in your personal (3ft - 18in)/intamate (18in - 0in) space. Where the MIND goes the BODY will FOLLOW....not lead...but FOLLOW. I tried to emphasize the psychological factors of fighting, I said nothing about beating people up just to make one's self feel better. That's a self-esteem and self-efficacy problem, I have neither. Please don't twist my words, you totally misread what I was trying to say. I'll explain it bettter so you may undestand my clearly. If someone attempted to attack me or tried to harm my physical well being in some form of intentional violence, I will defend myself with god ugly fury. I will not hold back, when it comes to defending my self I will not stop until the threat is eliminated and I am completely safe. Which I'm sure others would share the same belief. My "hard work" is not your "hard work". Our kung fu is not the same, so our theories and beliefs may differ. I have a different view than you, so ask before you assume. I never want to prove I am the baddest. I never try to prove my toughness I train purely for self defense, not to beat people up for fun or money.

and blackenedwings....
I was trying to also say that people with actual unarmed hand to hand combat experience that trained (group A)and people who train with no actual experience (group B)will be in two different classes. "A" will have the MENTAL prepardedness to attack with proper technique and form because their mind will not be as "shocked". There are a million variables to this theory but for the most part it's true. It's kinda like when someone throws a punch 2 inches from your face and you blink. If you are in an altercation and you are not prepared your mind will "blink".

Originally posted by blackenedwings
On the flip side however, I think that a trained MA who has learned that same mental toughness will be much more effective than the scrapper, even if said scrapper has had more street fights. Training and skill shouldn't be underestimated either. That mental toughness is just required before a MA can really exercise that skill in a fight successfully I think. [/B]

I was trying to say the samething except if a scrapper learned the the way of a MA. If that mental toughness is already there then the hard part is over, now on to the forms and techniques. We basically said the samething we just had different perspectives of it.

[goatnipples2002]

Phoenix Eye
This single-knuckle strike executed with the middle knuckle of the index finger is also used to accurately hit acupoint targets. Being a linear strike and driven forward by the elbow, it is a blindingly fast, efficient weapon. The Phoenix Eye is also a characteristic strike of other Southern Chinese kung fu systems such as Tong Long Kuen. Quoted from the Wing Chun Combat Centre http://www.wckfo.com.au/article_05.html towards the bottom of the page

[CKava]

Emmm... goatnipples I wasnt actually referring to you. Though maybe you should think about why you felt that it was directed at you? I was actualy making a general point because it seemed that some of the posts were hinting that defending yourself was in someway linked with having a macho attitude- which its not.

Some of your other points though I think are quite interesting...
I was trying to say that you may train for a lifetime but it will have no meaning because your mind will not be able to handle the adrenaline overload or "shock" of personal unarmed combat. I agree, the effects of a real encounter on the body, such as adrenaline and shock, is an area often overlooked in martial arts training. This is why many martial arts today have started to incorporate rbsd (or reality based self defence) training and why there are martial arts that 'only' use such methods to train. However Im not so sure I would agree with what you said about someone who had a lifetime of training, if someone had a lifetime of real training I think they would be more than mentally prepared to deal with a real life situation. If your talking about someone who had a lifetime of attending 3 classes a week for an hour of some martial art that is different and then I might agree...
If someone attempted to attack me or tried to harm my physical well being in some form of intentional violence, I will defend myself with god ugly fury. I will not hold back, when it comes to defending my self I will not stop until the threat is eliminated and I am completely safe.Good for you, I would share a similar belief. Though I would add that if your just acting in self defence then its really the other person who should dictate the amount of force you need to use. If you've already decided to be as brutal as possible when the opportunity arises is it really self defence?
I said nothing about beating people up just to make one's self feel better.Neither did I. I said that people who like to tell you how tough they are aren't necessarily the capable/dangerous/tough people they want you to think they are...
Please don't twist my words, you totally misread what I was trying to say.I didnt use ANY of your words let alone twist them.

[sen]

Ah...

Thanks for posting that article Goat...Brain Fodder.

[sen]

The Link to the WC Combat Centre that is

[goatnipples2002]

Hey CKava...my bad thought you were talking to me. I only thought that because it seems like everyone talks stuff to me. WC must really be my calling because people in this thread actually listen. Thanxs ya'll.

Sen...you like that strike? I love it.....I going to marry it one day. :D :eek: :confused: :D

[goatnipples2002]

is everybody sleep, where yall at?

[white_sash]

im training in the dojo...

[CKava]

My university is occupying me at the minute. :(

[goatnipples2002]

I hear you on that one. It snowed like 2ft in 3 days last week and another 2ft this week. I have a honda with bald tires so I don't go anywhere except to the school. I should be practicing my form but I'm slackin.

[goatnipples2002]

when did the website change?

[YODA]

when did the website change?
Bwaaaaaaaaahahahahahahaaa....

Ahem....

Last week :D



http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10233

[goatnipples2002]

kinda looks like that other site.

[YODA]

kinda looks like that other site.
THAT other site? I can think of 5 off the top of my head using the same VB3 template.