Bong Soo Han

[beretta92_fs200]

I was just wondering what you all thought about the man and his style .I bought all his dvds because the the closet dojang is 3 hours away,I have taken hapkido before but it was under grandmaster kwan sik myung, and i have a green belt in tkd.Do you all think its possable to learn from a dvd instead of it being a referance?

[JimH]

Hi,
I believe you can learn from videos and DVD's,if you truly find a training partner or two and get on the floor and truly work the materials.

That said,Hapkido is a fine motor skill and the placement of the hands ,the way the grip,the twist,the pain,the lock,the takedown are done all require a specific method that most times does not come across on the videos.

Hapkido is not just kick and punch,it should not just be any grab that we get ( I see it in classes with beginners),people may grab the forearm or lower wrist,they do not grab the hand,these are the finer points that require a zoom in on the videos,that require explanation and are not seen because you would have to do it so frequently the videos would be 2-3 times as long.
( if you train wrong for long periods without correction the errors become the habit which become the technique and may take a long time to correct)

Videos are good to review and to get ideas from,if a person has had enough training to know the proper application of the new techniques seen ,then they are worth while as learning tools.

Bong Soo Han's video series is good,basic and a series which provides steps to learning and building.
(you asked about the man:GM Bong Soo Han is a very nice man and very knowledgable,a True legend that knows he is a legend but is approachable,like Norris,Lewis,Wallace and the many other Legends.What is on the video series are basics of his teachings that do not represent his true skills and abilities,the series is the first step his knowledge is vast)

If you are dedicated , have training partners who are dedicated and you spend the proper amount of time you can learn from videos and DVDs.

The end product of true dedication may well work and just need tweeking to be truely effective, it takes time , effort and the end result depends on what you start with and how you build to that end product.

I would say that even video trainers need to work with live instructors,even if only periodically,to fix the problems.

Proper training in the Aiki arts requires strct attention to detail,so live training is best,(I would make that three hor drive once in a while to perfect my art)but if live training is hard to come by then we must find training where we can.
(We are lucky today to have options such as videos and DVDs)

Good Luck
(be sure you find dedicated partners with the same desires as yourself)

[Utotin]

Bong soo Han teaches good "basic" HKD. I have not seen any of his videos, but have had the opportunity to check out some of his students.

I personally don't care for the way they do some of their kicks though. Very stiff and "karate" looking to me.

[JimH]

Bong soo Han teaches good "basic" HKD. I have not seen any of his videos, but have had the opportunity to check out some of his students.

I personally don't care for the way they do some of their kicks though. Very stiff and "karate" looking to me.

Utotin,
I fully agree with your assesment and have posted as such before,and took flack for it,their material is very Basic and Tae Kwon Do based,on video and in person,they get more into the Hapkido portion as they progress in the art.
(The few men who have been with him for over 30 years are really very good practioners)

GM Bong Soo Han is not the only GM that uses TKD as the basics before entry into hapkido,this is where many learn the kicks of TKD and keep them rather than employing the more typical kicks seen in Hapkido schools that offer traditional methods and skip the Tae kwon Do cycle.(this point was talked about by myself,American HKD and others on another thread)

This problem of Kicks and its use by Tae Kwon Do as the entry art to Hapkido is another reason for Variations of the art,as many Tae Kwon do people just use portions of Hapkido to supplement the TKD.
They employ Hapkido soley as the few self defense techniques they throw in the mix with TKD.
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The Bong Soo Han video series,would be a Great start,especially for someone with a TKD background as Beretta claims to have,as he goes from a known to unknown.

[Utotin]

Did you, by chance, ever see that Martial Arts documentary that A&E put out a few years back? He was the featured HKD guy on there & I feel that I got the same impression there as well. The basics were technically sound but not with the same dynamics that are, to me at least, characteristic of HKD. Again, his HKD looks fundamentally sound & his black belts are pretty good, but I would not say it was the best commercial for HKD I have seen. And again with the stiff kicks!

[MJR]

We all concur here on the subject of the stiff, rigidly chambered kicks which we do not normally associate with classic hapkido in evidence on this video but I think that it is important to note that Han Bong Soo is not stiff at all when he is in action (and not teaching in a regimented way).

You'll also notice he teaches quite strong chambering on the tapes but occasionally, when he is kicking faster and not thinking about the "teaching method" he kicks very fluidly with only the minimum chambering necessary to perform the kick.

My own teacher trained alongside Master Han, who was his senior and older than him, and he said that Han believes that there has to be a simplified teaching method for beginners. (And scolded my teacher for not employing the same. He felt that it was not good for business as it was too hard for beginners to work on the more advanced manner of performing these techniques thus they would get frustrated and leave. And in many cases I have to say Master Han seemed to be right!)

We should bear in mind that in hapkido circles Master Han was always considered an extremely accomplished kicker. When asked in the 1980s to put together a dream team of the greatest fighters he knew, kickboxer Benny the Jet put Han Bong Soo in that line due to his fantastic kicking ability.

[ELBOHEMIO]

Hey, I will send you a links of Hapkido videos to your PM.



P.S. Jim if you are intresting in Master Rdz. CQDT and Huk Ju Sool Hapkido videos send me a PM. Maybe we can trade if you like.

[doshim]

Panther Productions and Grand Master Bong Soo Han produced the video series. The series is meant for the general populace. Therefore, the basics are stressed. Without a strong foundation in the basics, one can never achieve the true grace, fluidity, and power of Hapkido kicks. Indeed, if you have seen old footage of Grand Master Han kicking, he is the epitome of all of those characteristics.

GM Han’s kicks are not Tae Kwon Do. He studied the ancient kicking art of Tae Kyon. Tae Kwon Do came later. In fact, according to GM Han, Tae Kwon Do copied the spin Heel kicks of Hapkido. The big difference in the two is that in Tae Kwon Do, they hook the kicking leg. In Hapkido the leg stays straight.

Did you, by chance, ever see that Martial Arts documentary that A&E put out a few years back? He was the featured HKD guy on there & I feel that I got the same impression there as well. The basics were technically sound but not with the same dynamics that are, to me at least, characteristic of HKD. Again, his HKD looks fundamentally sound & his black belts are pretty good, but I would not say it was the best commercial for HKD I have seen. And again with the stiff kicks!

Mr Leyva,

One of the basic rules in GM Han’s IHF is to never criticize another martial art. That includes anyone in a martial art. A person who criticizes is only trying to make themselves feel good. A good argument is one thing, but unfounded criticism is just unnecessary. I have been studying Hapkido for 12 years and would never dream of criticizing a 9th Dan Grand Master. This includes anyone be it GM Ji, GM Pelligrini, GM Myung, GM Chang, et al. Those Masters made it to where they are today and how could I have anything negative to say about anything they have done or continue to do. It’s simply not my place.

These message boards are so amazing because they have brought the martial arts world together. Unfortunately, with the casual and anonymous nature, the breaches in respect are astounding! A Martial Artist should strive for positivity and live by a code of values and ethics. It’s unfortunate to see the potential of these boards often digress into disaster.

Getting back to the video series. It’s impossible to understand the depth of an art by watching a video. It’s like reading a book and then going to see the movie that was made of the book. The book is always better. It’s impossible to distill 60+ years of experience on 10 videotapes. The tapes are simply a broad stroke overview, easily digestible by your average Joe.

[Jointlock]

...One of the basic rules in GM Han’s IHF is to never criticize another martial art. That includes anyone in a martial art. A person who criticizes is only trying to make themselves feel good. A good argument is one thing, but unfounded criticism is just unnecessary. I have been studying Hapkido for 12 years and would never dream of criticizing a 9th Dan Grand Master. This includes anyone be it GM Ji, GM Pelligrini, GM Myung, GM Chang, et al. Those Masters made it to where they are today and how could I have anything negative to say about anything they have done or continue to do. It’s simply not my place.

These message boards are so amazing because they have brought the martial arts world together. Unfortunately, with the casual and anonymous nature, the breaches in respect are astounding! A Martial Artist should strive for positivity and live by a code of values and ethics. It’s unfortunate to see the potential of these boards often digress into disaster.

Getting back to the video series. It’s impossible to understand the depth of an art by watching a video. It’s like reading a book and then going to see the movie that was made of the book. The book is always better. It’s impossible to distill 60+ years of experience on 10 videotapes. The tapes are simply a broad stroke overview, easily digestible by your average Joe.

Although, I do agree with you that some respect is lost on these forums, I think criticism is perfectly fine. Why shouldn't we be able to question something that someone else does, especially someone of a higher rank. Now, I'm not specifically talking about GM Han, because I don't know that much about him, but there have been many so called Grandmasters that have done unethical and non-positive things. Just because they are Grandmasters does not mean that they are infallible.

I know a TKD instructor that was at one time doing long distance training with GM Han's video series. I'm not sure if he ever got promoted in this program, but if as some of you say his videos are just the basics, why would he promote someone that had been only learning from them. I think I heard somewhere that GM Han had stopped doing this. Maybe it wasn't working out as well as he had hoped.

I borrowed one of the videos from this instructor I believe it was red belt. I wasn't really that impressed with the video. Just a lot of kicking combinations, and a few basic locks. If I remember right GM Han didn't do any of the kicking, he had his 5th and 3rd dans do everything.

[Utotin]

So I can't have an opinion on the hapkido portion of this documentary? I am not criticizing GM Han, I am commenting on the way his HKD was represented on this documentary. This is likely the fault of the producers of the documentary and the way editors pieced together the footage. My Kendo teacher was in this video as well and he will tell you himself that they made him alter some of the techniques to look better for the camera, which resulted in some of the Kendo looking wierd.

I would like to have seen hapkido represented a little more dynamic then it was on the documentary. No biggie.

GM Han's kicking looks a little stiff to me and I don't particularly care for it. That doesn't mean it doesn't work, its just not the style of kicking I care for.

[Thomas]

I was just wondering what you all thought about the man and his style .
I love GM Bong-soo Han... while everyone was watching Kung Fu movies and getting into that, I was watching Billy Jack. His Hapkido was one of the big things that motivated towards the martial arts and Korean arts specifically. Granted, that led me to TKD first. My interest in Hapkido is one of the things that motivated me to go to Korea.



I bought all his dvds because the the closet dojang is 3 hours away,I have taken hapkido before but it was under grandmaster kwan sik myung, and i have a green belt in tkd

I have purchased one of his DVDS (Red Belt) and find it pretty good (7 kicking combos and 14 defences vs chokes). It makes a nice reference to the basic curriculum I imagine.

.Do you all think its possable to learn from a dvd instead of it being a referance?
No. The underlying concepts of Hapkido are the most important elements of the art and must be learned in person and practiced under a qualified instructor. There are a lot of things in Hapkido which must be learned and practiced with the aid of an instructor. The likelihood of (1) injury and (2) failure for it to work are very high.

I recommend that you sign up at a school and train. 3 hours away? Maybe you can hit it once a week or something.

[Utotin]

Besides, the guy who started this thread asked our opinions of the man & his style. Maybe you should get mad at him to for asking such a question silly question. He's a GM so he must be great, right? Or maybe we should have just ignored his question.

Who says that we cannot have neggative opinions about other martial arts and martial artists? I never got that memo.

[doshim]

there have been many so called Grandmasters that have done unethical and non-positive things. Just because they are Grandmasters does not mean that they are infallible.
That may be true. But, with respect to criticism, the old adage, "Silence is golden", speaks volumes. My golden rule on forums such as this is to not write anything that I would not say to someone face to face.


Thomas,

Thank you for always being a beacon of positivity and always adept at the art of bringing a thread back around to topic.

My hat is off to you, sir.

[doshim]

Who says that we cannot have neggative opinions about other martial arts and martial artists? I never got that memo.
O.K. I'm putting that memo out as of now. Is anyone up to the challenge?

Believe me, there are ways of discussing things without criticizing. It just takes some thought and discipline. Watch Thomas. He's a master of diplomacy. He can get involved in the most heated of arguments, but always manages to take the high road. Remember, the written word is very powerful.

[Jointlock]

O.K. I'm putting that memo out as of now. Is anyone up to the challenge?

Believe me, there are ways of discussing things without criticizing. It just takes some thought and discipline. Watch Thomas. He's a master of diplomacy. He can get involved in the mosted heated of arguments, but always manages to take the high road. Remember, the written word is very powerful.

You're critisizing us right now. If there is a question on the forum asking for my opinion I'm going to give it. Take it or leave it.

[doshim]

You're critisizing us right now. If there is a question on the forum asking for my opinion I'm going to give it. Take it or leave it.
Please do give your opinion. I just think there is a way to state your opinion without bashing. It's easy to bash. It's much more challenging to structure your posts in a positive manner....just my opinion.

[JimH]

Elbohemio,
Thank you for the offer of Master Rods Materials,but I have his full series.
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The references to GM Bong Soo Han's all speak of one video,well I have the whole series,the manual and the guest pass to free training with GM Bong Soo Han.

The series was intended for long distance learning and promotions under GM Bong Soo Han.(white to black Belt)

I understand the long distance video promotions are no longer done,but the series is still out there to be the review series for the actual classes.

The series is basic in its entirety.

The kicks on the video can be said to be Tae Kyun kicks,( Tae Kyun was not just a kicking form of combat ,Tae Kyun was street fighting,the pictures,the drawings and the written depictions tell us this as do prctioners)but they,the kicks on the video, are no different than the kicks taught in Ji Do Kwan,or other styles of Tae Kwon Do ( they are the same kicks as taught by S H Cho in his Korean Karate ,which he says is Shotokan Karate)

As I have said the Video series we are talking about is a Great Basic entry into Hapkido,but it is set up as a true depiction of the full art (white to black belt) under GM bong Soo Han.
(as said on another post,GM Han was upset that other Masters did not make it as basic in their entry levels for new students of the art,so the basic aspect show on the video are and were intentional)

As I have also said this video series does not truely show the Greatness of GM Bong Soo Han ,or of his senior students.

I have met GM Bong Soo Han and he is a very nice man and to be able to pick his brain for even a short time was and is an honor.

I have met and seen his senior students doing their thing with Hapkido and they are not stiff,robotic and they are well beyond basic.

GM Bong Soo Han is older so what he was able to do 30-40 years ago may not be so easy to do today,but if you look at his senior students you see the true art he passed down.

The Video series,is not a Good reflection of this Man,his art or of his students,but if you want a good entry level series this would be it.

[Utotin]

The Video series,is not a Good reflection of this Man,his art or of his students,but if you want a good entry level series this would be it.

Exactly. BSH hapkido is good quality HKD but I don't feel it was represented very well on the A&E documentary either.

[American HKD]

Greetings,

Bong Soo Han is beyond 99.9999% of anyone’s criticism he is a pioneer.

Respectfully asking him questions is Ok IMO, but there;s a limit as well.

He has done more for HKD single handedly then almost anyone in the world.

He can teach anyway he feels is correct.

I also totally respect the fact he stayed true to HKD and never sold out IMHO.

He is well respected by the KHF as a special master and HKD senior.

I wish him, his family, students, and friends all the best and a complete recovery to Master Han.

[Utotin]

I don't think anyone is being critical of GM Han, only of the way his style has come across on various videos and that has nothing to do with the quality of him or his students. I have seen his students and they are very good, and I am certain GM Han would be able to teach all of us here a thing or two about HKD. It just has not come across well on videotape is all that I think is being said.

[hapkidofighter]

I am a student at Grand Master Hans dojang and I have only watched the black belt video tape. It seems to me that lots of people might buy martial arts video tapes expecting to see lots of flashy moves and big techniques, which GM Han could have easily shown but that didn't seem to be the purpose of the video tapes. To me the video tapes seemed to be put out to show people the basic techniques of hapkido and to give students of GM Hans have a reference of the basic techniques.
I can't speak to much on the issue of kicking because I haven't trained in any other Korean Martial arts, but I do have a friend who has a first dan in Taekwando and his kicks seem pretty different from what I have been taught.
GM Han himself is a man of strong integrity and one of the nicest people you'll meet! He has a real presence about him and is very approachable. He will talk to you weather your a white belt or black belt. There are many great places to train in LA but I choose GM Hans dojang. One of the reasons I love training there is because of the vast wealth of knowledge. Many of the people there have been training longer than I have been alive!
I was lucky enough to have some private lessons with GM Han and during them he didn't teach me any advanced techniques or anything like that- he just drilled me over and over again on the basics making sure I had a solid foundation. And really taught me how to train for the future. Its like that quote "Give a man a fish and he'll have dinner for a night- teach a man to fish and he'll have dinner for an entire lifetime" I feel like GM Han did that for me by showing me how to think and train. So I really understand why he would only show the very basics on his video series.

respectfully,
Anton Summers

[Utotin]

Great response. Definitly give some insight into his philosphy as a teacher, and makes alot of sense! Thanks!

[JimH]

The original question,by baretta, was about the use of GM Bong Soo Hans videos and thoughts on the videos use as a distant learning product.

The dialogue has been about the materials contained on the videos,not about the qualifications or the skill level of GM Bong Soo Han.

Many seem to take a critique of the products as an attack against a great Grand Master ,which it is not.

The product was Basic,even a student of GM Bong Soo Han says the black belt tape was basic,this is what has been said all along.

The tape is a reference materials video series at present, but it was originally intended as a distant learning and promotional (Rank earning) video series,so Baretta if you have the full series you have the complete white to black belt materials that are and were used in GM Bong Soo Hans system,so you have a Great Materials product that is basic and doable.
(again as I and others have said,the videos along with actual hands on training ,when doable ,are a better way to go forward)

[JimH]

Hapkidofighter,
to quote you
"I am a student at Grand Master Hans dojang and I have only watched the black belt video tape. It seems to me that lots of people might buy martial arts video tapes expecting to see lots of flashy moves and big techniques, which GM Han could have easily shown but that didn't seem to be the purpose of the video tapes. To me the video tapes seemed to be put out to show people the basic techniques of hapkido and to give students of GM Hans have a reference of the basic techniques.
I can't speak to much on the issue of kicking because I haven't trained in any other Korean Martial arts, but I do have a friend who has a first dan in Taekwando and his kicks seem pretty different from what I have been taught."

I went back and quickly reviewed the Video series,tape 9 and 10,(since you mentioned the black Belt tape 10)
The demonstrator of all the kicks on these two videos was Master Gannon.
tape 9.
running jumping side kick
double front kick
jump front kick to side kick,combo
jump front kick to roundhouse
jump front kick to spinning side kick
front kick to spinning back kick
basic side kick to spinning back kick
riund house kick to spinning back kick
spinning heel kick
jump spinning heel kick
jump spinning heel kick in place

through out the video the narrator talks of the use of these licks in competitions.
( what competitions? Tae Kwon Do?)

Tape 10
Drop low roundhouse kick
drop low spin heel kick
front kick to low drop spinning heel kick
side kick to low drop spinning heel kick
roundhouse to low drop spin heel kick

Now I do not know what type of Tae Kwon do your friend takes that the kicks are not similar,but I have seen and done these kicks ,all of them ,since starting my training in 1970 in Tae Kwon Do,even master Gannons execution was pure Tae Kwon Do.

Some will say that the low drop spinning kicks are Hapkido signature kicks,but this is not so,Tae Kwon do and other arts also have them.

I do agree with your point that GM Bong Soo Han feels that the Basics are the most important points,I agree 100 percent,without mastery of the basics we have nothing to build upon,this is why I believe these videos are a great starting point for Baretta.
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The point of the discussion and the question asked by Baretta can only be answered by those who have ,or have seen ,the videos,to just defend the videos without seeing them because they are done by GM Bong Soo Han is an error in regard to the question.
Again this discussion is on the product,not a Great Grand Master.

[dngrruss]

Criticism and disrespectr are 2 different things.

I have met and genuinely like GM Han. He is a very nice man and his contribution to HKD in the US is well documented. I think that all American HKD practitioners owe him some debt of gratitude for bringing HKD into the lime-light.

Now that having been said, I too have some disagreements with the way some techniques are taught. Does that make him wrong? No. Does that make me right? No. My interpretation of application and training of techniques come from 2 things- my GM- Yi Jong Hak, and my own experiences on the training floor and fighting in the real world.

I have nothing but respect for most GMs. If I think that a GM, any Master, Instructor, or student are being disingenous or passing bad info- I will speak out against them. If I simply don't see eye to eye with them, then I will respect their opinion and move on.

I want my students to value open-mindedness. If you don't like someone's criticism, then do not listen to them or find a proper argument against them. Don't tell us we can't express our opinion, even if it's not always polite.

Just my 2 cents...

[hapkidofighter]

Jim H- Like I stated earlier- I don't know enough about taekwan do to really comment on the differences between the kicks. the difference I notice while sparring my friend who is a student of GM Bong Si Kim is that he doesn't chamber his kicks as much as I have been taught to, and just the way he fights and delivers his kicks seems to be alot different that what I know. He bounces around alot more and does alot more spins. It seems like he never fully extends his leg either, which is also different from I have been taught. mayby the kicks are simular- and I'm sure we share alot of the same kicks with Taekwando (theres only so many ways one can move their body)- but the way they are deliverd and the way we fight with them seems different to me. But in order for me to form a more solid opinion, I'd have to go spar alot more taekwando people

[shadow warrior]

Most students of HKD would be happy if they could demostrate ALL the techniques seen on the GM Han tapes. After all, most HKD and martial art students are HOBBIESTS'! Far less than 10 hours per week training.

For example: If you want to learn the more application oriented 'release' kicking (refer to threads on HKD kicking) mechanics known to some 2nd generation HKD GM's, you'll have to get much more serious about your training goals in order to get close enough to them for them to show it to you. These mechanics CAN NOT be learned from a tape!

During the 1990's I visited GM Han at his school a number of times with some of my students. He is a very distinguished and generous man who helped me a great deal with his insights, support and advice. One of the instructors who had been with GM Han for a very long time (appears in tapes), was a reflection of the GM himself and could kick in a way much different then the mechanics on the tapes when asked.

If you want to learn HKD, it is very difficult to learn it from ANY tape. The GM Han tapes are at least good on the basic concepts.


Keith Stewart
Head Instructor
East West Hapkido

[beretta92_fs200]

Thanks for the feedback guys, I Respect all of your thought on the subject.
And by no means did I mean to start a war on the suject.

[Martial One]

Don't like bong soo han eh? Books and videos are a good side tool for learning martial arts, they are well thought out and planned unlike your average class. Concepts can easily be written, the thing you need from an instructor is the proper nourishment and honing.