knive fighting

[krys]

Hello,

How do you guys work your knive fighting?
Let's talk about it!

[thiaboxr2]

I have very limited skills with the knife right now. I can discuss what I have done so far.

The obvious would be the angles of attack. Self explanotory there.
Started defending against the angles, one strike at a time. Example would be; opponent attacks with angle one, you defend by striking his wrist while using your free hand to either check his or pass his hand to the inside. Using the required footwork. As the drill progresses other strikes with the knife are used from stabs to slices or 'x' pattern slices. This is one of the free form exercises we do.
I dabbled a little with knife tapping, just the basics here. Have not done the more advanced drills yet.
We would also put on one bag glove, on your knife hand. And would try to strike the opponents knife hand. Checking hand not used for this. just knife to knife. Another free form. Quick hand movements in this, alot of footwork involved and hand and eye cordination. One of the more realistic drills without actually maiming your partner.
And the ' give and take ' drill. Known also as attack and defend.

This is where I stand right now.

[Joe karate]

Give the attacker a marker(preferably washable). Wear white clothing. Then have him try and stab/slash at you for a while as you try to dodge and parry. Then you will see if your skills work and they will also improve.

After you get good enough at evading his knife, have the attacker wear some kind of sparring/boxing glove on his free hand. Now he has the option of punching and stabbing. It should be interesting. Very realistic too.

[KennyMcC]

That's great training!

[Dan Anderson]

I currently work with the CSSD SC (Common Sense Self Defense/Street Combat) method devised by Bram Frank. He has taken Modern Arnis and has coupled it with the Presas family blade art and has come up with no nonsense method of knife work. It is simple and very effective and I recommend it to anyone.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

[juramentado]

I'm studying knife fighting as part of Pekiti Tirsia Kali.

It's really quite an eye opener, and can be unsettling if you aren't prepared for the mindset that it requires. I've seen some students shudder when our instructor gets into the finer details..

Basically involves movement training, parrying, thrusting, slashing, "defanging the snake", and various knife drills to teach sensitivity. Body movement is very essential and the "alive" hand also plays a huge part of getting the knife to the target.

[DeeTee]

We identitfy different environments first and then determine which one it is we're working in. It may sound obvious but certain drills and techniques are only applicable to certain settings. There's basically knife vs knife, which by nature is going to be a non committed environment and knife vs empty hand which can be both committed and non committed environments. We work defence against concealed weapons, range awareness, methods of controlling the weapon arm at elbow etc etc. In a non committed environment, we have the feeder put on a shin guard and goggles and just come in with forehand and backhand slashes whilst the defender tries to keep him off with kicks and eye jabs. When they get comfortable with this we then look for the controll on the arm. Then we work in resticted spaces which could simulate a corridor, the upper deck of a bus etc.

[shootodog]

brother juramentado,

we had a reflex training during the dungeon's anniversary. haaaayyyyoooppp!!! let's just say that disarming techniques were what the grand tuhon told us to expect. disarm? dis arm is mine!

[johndoch]

So what about grips?? Whats your favourite grip?

[YODA]

Originally posted by johndoch
So what about grips?? Whats your favourite grip?

Favourite grip? ----- TIGHT!

Ahem.....

Up / hammer / heaven / langit / sak-sak - pick a name :D

[johndoch]

when we train with knives we tend to go with the upwards and downwards grips. Upwards is when the knifes blade is at the thumb end (picture standard mid-level straight stab) and downwards is when the blade comes from the opposite side of the fist (picture overhead stab). Personally I prefer downwards for shorter blades.

Does anyone have any advantages/disadvantages of these grips?

Yoda heaven / langit / sak-sak never heard of these could you please describe.

[bite]

Hi Doc,

Langit is heaven

Sak-sak is thrusting the knife.

Bite

[johndoch]

cheers bite

langit is heaven???

sorry still dont have a clue.:confused:

[YODA]

The names I gave are all diferent terms for the same grip.

"Upwards" by your definition.

[johndoch]

doh

so obvious yet am oblivious
:D

Cheers Yoda:)

[bite]

You got me on that Yoda! LOL

[shootodog]

hehehe

is it you bite_rice?

lemme just get this off my chest.

yoda is right. what matters in a grip is the fact that you could weild your weapon. some of the standard variations of the grip came about because of how the balisong opened in your hand. it became purely incidental the way the held it because that's the way the knife opened. sometimes the handler changed grip because of the opening that was presented to him.

the grip follows the basics of fma. opening, angle of attack, angle of incidence.

sayoc kali has the most number of grip variations i've seen.

mostly it comes down to this: ice pick, standard blade down, standard blade up. all the rest are variations on it.

sorry for the limited knowledge on this guys. i promise to work harder on this. brother teacher? brother manong?

[Cudgel]

so what the difference between ice pick and standard blade down?

[YODA]

Originally posted by Cudgel
so what the difference between ice pick and standard blade down?

Nothing.

[Cudgel]

then why did shoot dog list them as two different techniques?
OR maybe I just misread him and thought he listed them separetly. *shrugs*

Just as well thanks Yoda

[shootodog]

shoot! would really want to post pics but i don't have time. icepick is when you have your thumb on the pommel and the point facing the ground. the blade is facing outward towards the opponent.

a standard grip is where your thumb is on the guard. point facing the opponent.

the variations of the standard are that the edge faces the ground or the edge faces upward. really. simple that way.

[Floorismyfriend]

Can somone here refer me to a good knfie fighting site?

[Jacques_Strappe]

I study Kadina de mano as part of the Inayan system of Escrima(www.inayan.com). We do partner drills that develop timing and touch sensitivity. Like: parry-parry-check, backfist, sweep, elbow,press, backfist.

[shootodog]

I study Kadina de mano as part of the Inayan system of Escrima(www.inayan.com). We do partner drills that develop timing and touch sensitivity. Like: parry-parry-check, backfist, sweep, elbow,press, backfist.

kadena de mano (chains of hands) of max sarmiento? actually kadena de mano is a form of panununtukan (filipino boxing). really effective hand system. some people call it pinoy dirty boxing.

i didn't know it had knife techniques though. anybody from stockton, c.a. here that can verify this?

[Jacques_Strappe]

If you go to the link I provided above (www.inayan.com) you can click on 'Inayan System of Escrima' and they have all the info you need.

[Goju]

krys , were you asking about knife combat as in both opponents have knives or knife defense where you are attacked by someone with a knife?

[shootodog]

Originally posted by Jacques_Strappe
If you go to the link I provided above (www.inayan.com) you can click on 'Inayan System of Escrima' and they have all the info you need.

yeah i did. nice to know that the beloved art is doing well there.

the knife techniques (i'm guessing) are more a part of the escrima than the kadena de mano. brother teacher re-affirmed this during our session. "ang kadena'y mano mano" he said in halting taggalog.

mabuhay ang sining ng mandirigmang pilipino

[krys]

I was actually asking for knive to knive....
We also have a silat subsystem that teaches us how to attack unarmed opponents with knives, ie haw to draw him in the right distance, feints-change of hands against empty hand defenses....

It really makes you feel the heat if you are the unarmed player...

One of our methods to train disarms is to have the defender go twice as slow as te attacker, this is really good because it teaches you how to fight against a faster opponent...

We don't practice much drills, more fighting at different speeds...Actually we fight at a slow pace at the begining, triying to play with the techniques our GM taught us in order to see what works for us....Then we increase the speed...hidden weapons are added and the attacker of course uses also his empty hands to strike, take down...
The session ends with full speed fights...

In the Philippines we practice cutting on banana trees and abroad on tires....

Actually I carry a weapon whenever I can, going empty handed against a knive is like triying to catch a poisonous snake barehanded..... chances of succes are very low if the opponent has a little skill....

[Tyrkon Lawson]

Torke Blaise Loong has two excellent DVDs just out on a filipino short knife fighting system called Silat Sabungin. You can see a clip from the first dvd on his web site www.boneheadllc.com. The second dvd should be listed this week. Just thought I'd throw that in as another good resource. Thanks.

[sercuerdasfight]

shootodog,
the knife is from kdm. max was very good with a blade, the empty hands come from the blade.

[shootodog]

yes, i found out from brother teacher that kdm has knife. actually.

[Goju]

someone plz answer

how come in escrima training a 2 1/2 to 3 foot stick is used for training, but a hunting sized knife can be used too?
How would the moves apply to the two sizes.

Reason Im asking is sometimes I buy a Budo international magazine, In the video catalogue section where you order videos there is an escrima section... in the section there is one video that shows training and everyone is training with a stick, a pretty big one, like a tanbo or kali stick. Anyway in another video it says comes with two training knives and they are only about 6 inches long. Does the size of the knife matter? or does it change between styles of escrima. I was told that escrima is training for something like a ris or a short sword.

[YODA]

Eskrima/Escrima is the name of the art- not the weapon. Many styles of Eskrima train in namy shapes & sizes of weapon. The main ones that I teach are...

Single stick 28-31"
Double stick - two of the above
Knife - small pocket folder size up to what would be classes as a short sword
Sword / machette - same length as single stick but bladed
Staff - anywhere between 36" and 6' - basically anything that is easier to wield 2 handed than 1 handed.

[Matt_Bernius]

Originally posted by d_rza
how come in escrima training a 2 1/2 to 3 foot stick is used for training, but a hunting sized knife can be used too?
How would the moves apply to the two sizes.

Reason Im asking is sometimes I buy a Budo international magazine, In the video catalogue section where you order videos there is an escrima section... in the section there is one video that shows training and everyone is training with a stick, a pretty big one, like a tanbo or kali stick. Anyway in another video it says comes with two training knives and they are only about 6 inches long. Does the size of the knife matter? or does it change between styles of escrima. I was told that escrima is training for something like a ris or a short sword.

Yes size does matter. And you've touched on a common misconception about the Filipino arts. All techniques don't work the same on weapons of different lenghts (see Yoda's post for a good breakdown of weapons lengths). A six inch tactical folder is much shorter in many cases than the Filipino "knife" that the technique was meant for. There is a difference in cutting ability and penetration power.

Tuhon Bill McGrath (of Pekiti Tirsia International) wrote a great article on this that's archived over at the Inside Kung Fu site (unfotunately the pictures are currently broken). You can find it by scrolling down this page:
http://www.cfw2.com/article.asp?s=cfw&content_id=3077

I think it's a must read for those who are interested in the basics of knife fighting and knife self defense.

Hope this helps,

- Matt

[Goju]

good, I started escrima last night at the dojo, I recently ordered two escrima sticks, but I have a six inch folding knife and when I do tanbo katas I use a machete from my basement because the moves can also be applied to short sword.

[YODA]

Who's your Eskrima instructor? What style?

[Gravity]

Hi guys! Ever heard of the Tres Cantos? Now, this is one sneaky, treacherous and quite deadly home made knife that is now a favorite in Cebu - specially the tough areas downtown.

Basically, it is a three sided blade with a really sharp point. Actually, we use a triangular filing tool and we sharpen all the three sides and taper the tip to a sharp point.

We found out that among the knives that we train (including the olisi blade or kris), the Tres Cantos is the most difficult to defend against.

Advantages of this sneaky knife are:

1) You can slash and within the same movement change to stab - all with a very imperceptible flick of your wrist or the angle of your slash/stab. The three sided blade already gives you plenty of opportunities to vary your angles of attack without changing your grip, your wrist angle / rotation or even your arm movement.

2) Sheathed, the knife would look just like an ordinary tool (a sandfiler perhaps). Very sneaky... huh?

3) Its narrow blade (like a stilletto) gives it a stealthy profile giving the defender much difficulty in tracking its movement using peripheral vision - as what knife defense teaches. But even if your break your training and focus on the knife itself, you will still have difficulty tracking it because of its slim profile. Well, the defender must have a better than average eye - hand coordination to successfully defend against the Tres Cantos.





:woo:

[juramentado]

I've heard of that Gravity. But from what I understand, it's more of a modified icepick, with more metal in the body of the "blade" to give it more strength, making it less likely to bend on impact. The cross section is triangular, so you actual 3 edges. That would be a bit tricky to deal with but anyone with well developed knife skills from FMA will should be able to figure i out...
parang icepick na rin..(it's a bit like an icepick)

[Rich Parsons]

Do you have a picture?

[surgingshark]

I learn something new about Arnis/Escrima/Kali everyday ^_^

...man, am I glad I speak Tagalog.

"Langit" literal translation - "HEAVEN"
"Sak-Sak" literal translation - "STAB"

And yes, icepicks are quite a popular weapon in the bad areas of the Philippines.

[Gravity]

Nice reading your reply / confirmation Juramentado. Most likely the Tres Cantos idea sprang up from the desperate creativity of hardened inmates in one of our country's prisons.

I came to know about that knife when our office messenger got stabbed in Dec. 2002. The police caught up with the suspect and that's how I saw for the first time the Tres Cantos. I couldn't help but admire the ingenuity of whoever made up this kind of knife.

Mr. Parsons, I would try to post a picture of a Tres Cantos as soon as I can borrow my friend's. He's got one and he's a night watchman. But understand that the Tres Cantos is not a full production knife - being as what Juramentado said, a highly modified ice pick. Besides, its reputation (as a favorite weapon of underworld characters) is well, bad enough.

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by Gravity
Mr. Parsons, I would try to post a picture of a Tres Cantos as soon as I can borrow my friend's. He's got one and he's a night watchman. But understand that the Tres Cantos is not a full production knife - being as what Juramentado said, a highly modified ice pick. Besides, its reputation (as a favorite weapon of underworld characters) is well, bad enough.

Gravity,

Please call me Rich.

I am just curious is all. Not going to judge or critique, I am only trying to picture, and ice-pick egts me a better image, yet I would still like to see one.

Thank You

[shoto-kali]

when i was growing-up in manila during the 70's and 80's, ice pick, tres cantos, pana and sumpak are the favorite weapons used by the 'underworld character'. ice pick and tres cantos are the favorite weapon they want to carry around, its cheap to build and easy to conceal. i've seen one ice pick that looks like a 'bic' ballpen, he remove the inside led/ink of the pen leaving only the ballpen head and replace the inside with a metal pick/blade.

in the early-90's batangeno modified this, instead using the bic ball pen, they start using a 'parker pen', this time its a full functional bussiness type pen, you can even put it through a xray machine and it will only come out as a regular metalic pen, but inside it is a single bladed knife, during those time i bought one of this for only P80 (less than US$3)

why ice pick/tres cantos is the favorite side arm they use ? beside the info i've stated also earlier, they say if you stub somebody with this (one fast blow), blood dont usually comes out of your body and person who got stub thinks that he just got pinch and in just a few minute the person will faint and die for internal blood cluth.

[juramentado]

Originally posted by shoto-kali


why ice pick/tres cantos is the favorite side arm they use ? beside the info i've stated also earlier, they say if you stub somebody with this (one fast blow), blood dont usually comes out of your body and person who got stub thinks that he just got pinch and in just a few minute the person will faint and die for internal blood cluth.

yup. Icepicks cause massive internal bleeding when it's used to pierce organs like the liver and kidneys. unlike a conventional knife wound, an icepick hit will not bleed a lot but the damage is done. The disadvantage is that the icepick does not allow the user to slash.

one method of mugging being used in Manila is ideal for icepicks. The victim is approached from behind and the mugger gets his arm around the victim and starts to walks beside him, smiling and appearing to onlookers as a friend of the victim. The mugger already stabs the victim a little, make 1/2 inch or more, just to make sure that the victim is sufficiently scared and will not try to resist. Goods are take and the mugger walks away.

[Goju]

Hey Yoda, to answer your question, a few posts back. Because I train at a japanese ma school (dojo) We practise mainly karate and japanese kobudo, but we also learn other ma. WHen it comes to eskrima, sensei and some of the other black belts teach it, I have no idea what style it is or who sensei + other black belts learned it from. Also, sensei is a qualified instructer in so many things, so lots of our training combines with other things too. We practise karate but we add in jujutsu, tai chi etc, when we do escrima, some of our drills and technques come straight from escrima, some from unarmed vs knife attacks, some from tanbo jutsu (short stick, same size as escrima sticks), and other styles too. So, I doubt it is a very traditional style, but i still find it very interesting, all I know from "real escrima" is the basic techniques, the 12 strike drill, and foot work.

[Gryphon Hall]

The victim is approached from behind and the mugger gets his arm around the victim and starts to walks beside him, smiling and appearing to onlookers as a friend of the victim. The mugger already stabs the victim a little, make 1/2 inch or more, just to make sure that the victim is sufficiently scared and will not try to resist. Goods are take and the mugger walks away.
Yes, this is probably the only real effective way to use such a sneaky and treacherous weapon, that is, unfairly. However, it is quite unreliable in duels, really. I am not very fond of it.

Honor would seem to dictate that Martial Artists avoid using such a "sucker punch" sort of weapon, but it makes sense to train with it to know how it works and make understanding how to defend against it possible. I must admit that I myself never went up agains that weapon, but two highschool classmates did (I am 28, so that was a long time ago). One didn't know he was stabbed, but it didn't matter because it entered him improperly, though it nearly skewered one of his kidneys; the other knew he was going to be stabbed, and was stabbed, but moved his body in such a way as to minimize the damage inside. Both were lucky to be alive, but it does demonstrate that it is not as deadly as a real knife.

That would be a bit tricky to deal with but anyone with well developed knife skills from FMA will should be able to figure i out.
Actually, hindi rin; the way that a person trained in the classical arts would wield the tres cantos is very different from the way a coward sneaking up behind you to stab you would, and that can sometimes be a very unfortunate and fatal blind spot.

The best swordsman in the world doesn't need to fear the second best swordsman in the world; no, the person for him to be afraid of is some ignorant antagonist who has never had a sword in his hand before; he doesn't do the thing he ought to do, and so the expert isn't prepared for him; he does the thing he ought not to do; and often it catches the expert out and ends him on the spot. -- Mark Twain
Nakakahiya man sabihin, but I am not formally trained. But sometimes I would spar with formally trained fellows and I would do well, then some bloke who never trained at all comes at me with a ball pen and embarasses me by poking me in a way that leaves no doubt that if it was an icepick, heck! if he had the cap off and he really shoved, I would have had a third hole down below, if you knew what I mean.

That's the dilemma, I guess. We need to train to defend against it, but how?

Pax.

[shootodog]

imho, as what brother teacher showed me, pakal grip for this weapon. if you know how to use a knife in pakal grip then you can easily work it.

a friend of mine who lives in tondo says: "anong pakialam ko diyan sa fma na iyan! kung patay, patay!" (what do i care for the filipino martial arts! dead is dead). that is why you'd better choose your teachers wisely. make sure that the technique is firmly rooted in reality and not some fantasy.

note: i met him when i served as a namfrel volunteer at thier polling center. later, he was involved in on of the "my way" stabbings.

[Chase]

imho, as what brother teacher showed me, pakal grip for this weapon. if you know how to use a knife in pakal grip then you can easily work it.

a friend of mine who lives in tondo says: "anong pakialam ko diyan sa fma na iyan! kung patay, patay!" (what do i care for the filipino martial arts! dead is dead). that is why you'd better choose your teachers wisely. make sure that the technique is firmly rooted in reality and not some fantasy.

note: i met him when i served as a namfrel volunteer at thier polling center. later, he was involved in on of the "my way" stabbings.

Hi S, Defending yourself with a knife can be fast & bloody, but from practice with the knife I've learned a lot more about timing & speed as well as not to fear getting cut, while at the same time respecting it, & it only grows after you get a few stitches.
Ingat ka, ;)

[shootodog]

Hi S, Defending yourself with a knife can be fast & bloody, but from practice with the knife I've learned a lot more about timing & speed as well as not to fear getting cut, while at the same time respecting it, & it only grows after you get a few stitches.
Ingat ka, ;)

yup! i know that part! :D :D :D

[Chase]

yup! i know that part! :D :D :D

Ah, well, the best lessons are the hardest more often than not. ;)

Ingat ka,