The Great Divide...

[Spookey]

Dear All,

Does anyone here have any new information on Mr. Marlin Simms and his group.

I had the honor of competing this weekend against some of SBN Bill Page's students with Mr. Simms in attendance as the Chief Judge. I do beileve he has some students in attendance also!

Regardless, those guys were a great pleasure to compete with and against. SBN Bill has a stong stable of young fighters!

TAEKWON!
SpooKeY

[Wolf]

We've actually discussed this in a different thread. Master Sims is an amazing martial artist. He has some great students too (Bill Page was one of them as I understand it). Right now, there isn't much info available on his organization though. We don't even know what happened to make him split from the WKSA.

[Spookey]

Thank You!

[SBNBILL]

Hi Spookey

We had a great time with you guys at the tournament. Thanks for the compliments.
Come by the school some time.

Bill Page - SBN
The Martial Arts Center

[KSW_123]

SBN Bill.
Please stick around and give your advice once in a whiile. I would love to hear it. I beleive in open and free exchange of ideas.

[SBNBILL]

I dont get here often but I'll try to check in from time to time.

Be well and train hard
Bill - SBN

[baubin2]

AirNick is going to be SO disappointed, we thought HE was the highest-ranked guy here. Hey, SBN, give Nick a few pushups for us, wouldya? Haha, just kidding.

[AirNick]

Oh man! That didn't last long eh?

[Spookey]

Dear Sir,

I would love to come and train with your group! I will call sometimes in the near future and allow you to determine the best time!

Your guys are awesome, truly a pleasure to be around. Courteous and skilled a hard combination to find nowadays!

Also, I would really love to see Mr. Dalinger preform that up and over break...looked like an awesome technique! It was really an honor to compete with him. Great idea Mr. Sims had for our final break also!

TAEKWON!
SpooKeY

[Tkojiro]

Wow- I had KJN Simm's as an instructor when I attended Westpoint from 1992-1993. He was a great instructor and mentor. Through my military career I remembered some of his great lesson- not only was he an exceptional practicioner he educated his students to have a deeper perspective so they could own their own Martial Arts development.

It is a suprise to here he is no longer part of the KSW organization. Huge loss for them.

Rah,

TM

[Choiyoungwoo]

We don't even know what happened to make him split from the WKSA.

Well we know it wasn't due to a quality issue among his students, as they tend to follow his lead on skill and competentcy.

I am not the least bit surprised that he left nor do I think there was an individual thing that made him leave. I think it was an accumulation of things over time and there was a breaking point event that tipped the scale for him. Now there is no one at the top of WKSA in the US that is not related to KSN anymore. (Master Byung In Lees wife is SMN's sister, YKJN Harmon's sister is married to KSN's brother (In Sun Seo) and then of course KSN's Sons.)

I think the real questions are why should he have stayed? and what could have been done to keep him if anything? Can any one answer ?

[davefly76]

I think the real questions are why should he have stayed? and what could have been done to keep him if anything? Can any one answer ?

only one man knows the answer, master simms.

i don't know the reasons or the background behind his descision to quit the wksa but i'm sure it wasn't taken lightly. maybe he's always had a deep desire to create his own "style" of martial arts and it was a case of when the time is right. it would be sad that after so many years of dedicated training and friendship he would leave the wksa and the suh family on bad terms but sometimes a mans gotta do what a mans gotta do and nothing will stop him. :)

[Riff Raff]

Master Byung In Lees wife is SMN's sister

Huh. I'm at Master Lee's school, and didn't realize Tina was related in that way. :cool:

At any rate, wasn't Master Sims' DVD series released fairly soon after he left the WKSA? I imagine that could easily have been an issue, if Master Sims was wanting to do his own DVD series (or similar projects that are potentially in the works) and Kuk Sa Nim didn't want anything supplanting/competing with the official DVDs.

[KoreanWarrior]

Agreed!
He left and then started selling DVD's. It’s rather clear his motivation was and is money.

[JKN-Scott]

I doubt his reasons were purely financial for leaving. From what I've heard of master simms he is more about the art then the business side of things.

Its probably more a case that he sold the dvds to make his school more professional etc and to offer additional products and services to his students.

[musool]

Why would he need to leave the association to make his school "more professional?"

[Choiyoungwoo]

Agreed!
He left and then started selling DVD's. It’s rather clear his motivation was and is money.

I'm sure your are right. KW


From career perspective he probably had little choice. How do you make a living in KSW other than having a reasonably large school (which, to some, is selling out). In WKSA, You can't make dvd's , teach seminars, write books, host tourmnaments or test your own black belts or anything else for revenue. Is there anyone who can think of an alternative?

[KoreanWarrior]

Why does the main reason for joining KSW have to be about making a living?
Make a living doing other things and enjoy KSW. Once you make KSW your job you begin slowly squeezing the pleasure right out of it.

[Choiyoungwoo]

Why does the main reason for joining KSW have to be about making a living?
Well it certainly doesn't have to be. Nor should it have to be. But it seems to be the direction wksa is pushing as sschool ownership is a requirement for 5th dan.


Make a living doing other things and enjoy KSW. Once you make KSW your job you begin slowly squeezing the pleasure right out of it. If you do not enjoy teaching, and only enjoy practicing and training, then you are absolutely correct. If you love teaching, then it's a fun job that you love and you can make your passion your livelihood. ??

[Riff Raff]

It’s rather clear his motivation was and is money.

I certainly don't think that's a given. It's entirely possible that he just felt that he could produce a better DVD series than the official ones, and the only way he'd be allowed to do this would be to leave the WKSA. I personally think he succeeded, and have recommended his DVDs to several white belts at my school that were asking about training materials and such. It'd be nice though to see the official DVDs re-done to be something other than basic dumps of older video tapes.

[Choiyoungwoo]

Why would he need to leave the association to make his school "more professional?"

Why would he need to stay the association to make his school "more professional?" At his level, what does he need them for? Is his affiliation a benefit that outweighs the costs? Obviously it is not to him anymore. This same thing has happend over and over for decades. This is just the latest and widely known occurence.

It'd be nice though to see the official DVDs re-done to be something other than basic dumps of older video tapes
Nice, yes. Probable, no. There is nothing on the dvd's that threatens anyones position in wksa, all of the current leadership is there. There is no reason to upgrade that is worth the costs. They sell just fine as they are, and by the time one would complain, it doesn't matter.

[psbn matt]

you should all be thinking about the benifits off master sims leaving the wksa. with a highly skilled and ambitious kuk sool master like master sims out on his own, producing all sorts of teaching materials like dvd's and proberbly books as well, we can all now benifit form his vast knowlege in a way we never could before, and also in a way that no other kuk sool master that has split has ever done.
i for one (when i can afford it. lol) will buy anything master sims puts out, and greatly look forward to haveing a bigger liberary of kuk sool training aids.
this can only benifit us in the long run.

[Haidong Dave]

You probably can't be executed for what you buy and read or watch in the privacy of your home, but would you, as a WKSA dan grade, take the risk of training with Master Simms?

[Mung Kee]

damm right I would!!!! :D :D

[Choiyoungwoo]

You probably can't be executed for what you buy and read or watch in the privacy of your home, but would you, as a WKSA dan grade, take the risk of training with Master Simms?

in a heartbeat!
The only "risk" is the training itself. or do you think there are other risks?

[Silentmonk]

You probably can't be executed for what you buy and read or watch in the privacy of your home, but would you, as a WKSA dan grade, take the risk of training with Master Simms?

Guess that makes 3 :)

[Haidong Dave]

in a heartbeat!
The only "risk" is the training itself. or do you think there are other risks?
I gather you could well be risking your health in training with Master Simms, but what I meant was the risk to your standing within the WKSA if you were found to be training with someone who had walked away from it.

[Choiyoungwoo]

I gather you could well be risking your health in training with Master Simms, but what I meant was the risk to your standing within the WKSA if you were found to be training with someone who had walked away from it.


well ,,, i guess that would be the case if you allowed it to.
What you do privately is your business. Org's only have the power that you give them.

[SBNBILL]

Originally Posted by Haidong Dave
You probably can't be executed for what you buy and read or watch in the privacy of your home, but would you, as a WKSA dan grade, take the risk of training with Master Simms?

Master Sims and I both still have numerous KSW people triaining with us all the time. What's sad is that most of them don't want the WKSA to know it. They truly want to learn and don't feel that they can learn what we have to teach where they are at so they spend great amounts of time and energy to secretly travel and train with us.
The only problem I have with that is it is sad that in this country they have forgotten that we as citizens have the right and freedom to choose what we want to do with our own lives. Any organization or person that says differently does not have your best interest in mind.

All that doesn't really matter much though. The United Martial Science Federation is growing everyday. We are now teaching things that we know our students what to learn and everyday that passes I know that leaving the WKSA was the best thing that I could have ever done for myself and for my students.

Many of you here speak with great respect toward KJN Sims and even myself and for that I thank you. If your ever in Alabama please know that you are welcome to come and train at my school at anytime.

Bill - SBN

[psbn matt]

thanks bill, thats very nice to know.

[karma]

korean warrior stated that master sim's leaving the organization and making dvd's was monetary fullfillment ? and then goes on to ask why he does not have a job and just teach for fun ? number one, those dvds were origionally made for his students only, and were made long before master sims ever left the association. secondly, do you not think that after 40+ yrs. of training and training and teaching that one should not make a living at the craft he so loves? to a man like master sims, the martial arts is his job. do you stop to think of the time,blood,sweat,finacial hardships, time away from his family etc. etc. etc that he has forfeited to learn his craft ? i personally know that he has thousands of dollars wrapped up in anatomy books alone,not to mention physics books, biomechanic books,etc etc. and other methods of research, and to who's expense but his own? no, martial arts are not just a part of his life, they are his life. this man is the epitome of a martial artist. of course, anyone that has seen master sims in action knows this just from his movement and precision. i have seen him teach a workshop with a torn achilles tendon . it was a 2 day workshop for the meager price of 69 dollars. find me a workshop taught by a master sims caliber martial artist for 2 days for that price and i''ll attend. anyways, the workshop was supposed to last 3 hrs. each day, as many of master sims students know, his love of teaching mixed with his wanting you to learn something carried well beyond three hours each day. i watched as master sims taught the final hours on the second day flat on his back with an icepack on his ankle because it was so swollen, but still he taught. and i watched the people so eager to learn ,learn things they would have never gotten anywhere else. then later, i actually heard some people whine that 69 dollars was too much to pay for a martial arts workshop. i couldnt believe what i heard. let's get past the martial artist part of the man and look at the man that i know,because as far as training goes, i have seen him train all day and all night. when most people are sleeping, out about town, etc., this man is still training.
when i first moved to atlanta, i was married,had no money,but wanted to train with master sim's. this man took me in housed me and fed me,all he asked in return is that i train( needless to say that at times when lifes little troubles sidetracked me, i fell short on that simple task). i have called him at 4:00 in the morning to tell him my car was broke down and that i needed a ride to work( no complaints or oh brothers), he was right there to help me out. when my car needed towing 200 miles to my mechanic( i knew noone in atlanta), he said not one word, but hooked it to his truck and said lets go. as far as his students training goes i am not saying master sims is an easy taskmaster, as i am sure sabumnim bill can attest to. one of his favorite sayings is, practice does not make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect. master sims is not the type of man thats going to come to you and say, great job. my biggest compliment goes probably like, ok next technique. but he is the type of man that will always be honest with you and if you ever need someone to have your back in anything, it is him. i cannot count the times he has waited patiently on me and helped me overcome personal problems not even affiliated with martial arts. he has helped me to get home monetarily to see my family when he didnt have it to give. when i told him i didnt know when i could repay him, he simply said, i didnt give it expecting it back,you had a need. i am not trying to show master sims "sainthood" either, but it infuriates me when someone claims he is about the money. my one hope is that one day i can make him as proud of me as a student as i am of him being my teacher.
i apologize at my lengthy response and my lack of writing eloquence as i dont often have the time to write , but something like what korean warrior wrote is without any depth of thought or understanding of the personal costs and sacrifices that have been made by someone with master sims skill and knowledge. at his own costs, he has developed great instructors like master cheryl , sabumnim lisa and sabumnim bill to only name a few. these people have been with him for many many years. when master sims left the wksa, he never tried to persuade anyone to follow him. he let us know what he was going to do and let us make our own minds up. he even let us know, if we went our own way, he would still be there for us if we needed him. hes always told me, i cant fault you for making your own decisions, your life is different than mine. anyways, people can draw teir own conclusions about why he left, but let me tell you that it " ain't "never been just about the money.
good luck and keep training

[Choiyoungwoo]

korean warrior stated that master sim's leaving the organization and making dvd's was monetary fullfillment?

I think he meant that it's about time KJN Sims made some money off of his expertise, he certainly deserves to, don't you agree? I mean, if you think about it, he saw a void in the market, since quality videos are few. His attributes put him in a position to try to fill that void.
and then goes on to ask why he does not have a job and just teach for fun?
It's obvious he's never been in MA for the $, but I bet he wouldn't mind making a good living from it rather than working elsewhere, as any real master would?

those dvds were origionally made for his students only, and were made long before master sims ever left the association.

There is no reason why he or any other school owner shouldn't be able to do that type of thing.

do you not think that after 40+ yrs. of training and training and teaching that one should not make a living at the craft he so loves?

Absolutely he should, with no infringements!

to a man like master sims, the martial arts is his job. do you stop to think of the time,blood,sweat,finacial hardships, time away from his family etc. etc. etc that he has forfeited to learn his craft?

It seems he has certainly sacrificed much!

practice does not make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect I think that came from Rev J.S. Park. RIP.

[karma]

never said he coined the phrase about perfect practice,said it was one of his favorite sayings

[KSW_123]

If your ever in Alabama please know that you are welcome to come and train at my school at anytime.

Bill - SBN
If I ever get a chance to visit my friend out there, I'll drop by. In fact we'll come together because he is one of your students.