Personal Space

[ladyhawk]

You know that uncomfortable feeling you get when some people enter your personal space? That feeling that causes you to bring your hands up in front of you. Do you think that it is a disruption of your own ki/energy and that triggers a possible flight or fight response? Thoughts anyone?

[Greyghost]

Possibly....but i think after years of training i just don't like letting people inside my range...too many bad things happen when elbows get involved ..so i tend to create space ..pisses the wife off something rotten.

Its not so much that i can detect a presence within my space ..but rather my brain had been told on thousands of occassions that letting people get that close to you is BAD!!!..it just becomes instinct after that.

[alienladd]

I think 'personal space' is firstly determined by your cultural background and then secondly by your own adopted attitude depending on your observations of other peoples habits and also academic education can affect your 'personal space' needs.

Generally speaking, and also from experience, you will find the African folk here in South Africa will just about stand on your toes and think nothing of it, whereas folk of European descent will take exception to this physical closeness.

But now, as more Africans are being educated, and also due to the increase in the intermingling of the races and the increased economic as well as cultural exchanges between our country and the western countries this 'personal space' need seems to have grown.

But that's dealing only with the physical space.
Then there is still the psychological and spiritual space need.

But now it's someone elses turn. I'm going to my sleeping space! :)

[ladyhawk]

Instinct is a good point. I think our training has sharpened our senses and fine tuned our basic survival instinct. Our individual culture,
environment and lifestyle conditions us to pick up on specific warning signals.

Once bitten, twice shy.

Is our keen awareness to close contact a sensitivity to the disruption of our ki/energy or is it just that our instinct is picking up a signal? Perhaps our ki and instinct are closely related.

[Silver_no2]

Agree with Alienladd that personal space is dependent on your culture. I have read about how the Japanese will think nothing of having someone standing close to the point of almost being able to wear your clothes while most of my friends here in God's country (aka Scotland) would feel uncomfortable with that.

I suppose it also depends, as MAs, on the art that you have learnt. I would assume, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong (Freeform), that a Judoka would not feel as threatened as, for example someone who practices TKD as the Judoka would feel that they would be able to handle themselves if anything started from that range.

You've also got to look at the question of when, where and how they are invading your personal space. If you happen to be on the tube in London every day at rush hour I would assume that you would soon find your idea on the "right size" of your personal space becoming smaller as you became more used to being crushed.

On a completely separate point - Alienladd, I saw that you were in Jo'berg. I'm going to be in Jo'berg for three/four days in August. Can you recommend a good backpackers hostel and a couple of interesting places to go?

[ladyhawk]

I agree that culture is one of the determining factors defining personal space but how close is too close and what triggers the defensive response
when you feel threatened?

[waya]

With me it is just reflex, I don't like anyone being within 5 feet of me for any reason. If someone gets in that close, they usually start wondering if I think they are steak from the way I look at them lol. For the most part I avoid crowds and busy public places because they make me extremely defensive and a bit edgy.

Rob

[Silver_no2]

Five feet is one hell of a personal space bubble, Waya! Where do you live? The Gobi Desert? With the exception of when I'm in my room on the computer (ie now) I can't think of many times when I've got a five feet personal space bubble, and even that's on the condition that nobody is watching the TV or using the weights bench. I'm guessing that you don't live in a city!

[Saz]

Most people are meant to have a four feet exclusion zone that they feel uncomfortable allowing strangers into. I feel uncomfortable letting people much closer than say three feet; any closer and I start to wonder why they are standing that close.

[Freeform]

Radius or diameter (sorry the engineer in me is coming out).

Silver, I'd let anyone get within five feet of me UNLESS IT WAS YOU! ;) .

Personal space depends on the environment, on a crowded train, lets say the 17.15 from glasgow to the bid Ed, it would be considerably smaller than in the pub (could you please stop rubbing yourself against me...)

Thanx

[Andy Murray]

Or as I think Ozebob called it, a 'Snip Pithy Cliche'

I look at personal space like a Magnetic field. People of the right polarity can come real close, but when I start to feel 'repelled' by the wrong type of energy my 'safety goes off. The distance involved, depends on the strength of the field.

Personal Space is a good habit to practice.

Not bathing for a couple of months helps!

Andy:D

[Cooler]

Taking all the above points into account I feel it is a good training method to have people in your personal space and defend yourself from there. If you are not used to people being in your personal space then the first thing you will do when someone gets that close is try to back away and create space for yourself. If on the other hand your have trained for this then you will be able to take the other person out in a blink of an eye, 'elbow to the side of the temple or jaw works really well' :D

As a martial artist you should train to be comfortable at all ranges.

Cooler

[waya]

lol actually I do live in a city. I have found it fairly easy to keep people 5 ft or more from me except in restaraunts or somplace of that sort, which are places I am always uncomfortable and sit against a wall.

Where do you live? The Gobi Desert?
I did grow up in the Southwestern US in the desert, closest neighbor was a cow, but he never bothered me lol.

I know the way I am in this respect sounds a bit off, but there are alot of reasons that it came to be, and it is very hard to adjust to society as a whole, and goes right with my training driving everyone insane.

Rob

[newbielives]

Its all on a personal level.

If you are standing beside a wall you probably would never care how close it is to you, but if it was a object that could some how hurt you then you probably dont want to be that close. Same thing as if someone is right in your face. It just does not feel right because that is believed to be a fighting or confrontation posture, however if someone like your girl friend is goin to kiss you, you probably dont feel that uncomfortable unless its your first time (WHEEEEE)

[Darzeka]

hmm

I think my clubbing habit may have conditioned me a bit.

If I can see the person then I will fell alright with them out of arms reach (my arms are nearly always longer than theirs so if I can touch them th nthey are too close). Once they come in that range I try to keep an eye on them to make sure they don't make contact with me (by accident, with intent or through drunkeness).

I have made a habit of almost constantly scanning the room to see if anyone is going to walk through me in the near future and move out of the way. If they are just standing there I try to hover somewhere between all the people around me.

I severly dislike people walking backwards into me ( Why do drunk people never think there's anyone behind them?? Or that their elbows won't hit anyone when they are swinging them round?) so I try to be watchful of the person directly in front of me more so than those on my shoulders.

Another pub/club habit is to scratch at my nose/upperlip/mouth/general face area with my first knuckle and fingers out. My hand is almost always on a trip to or from that area so I have a pretty good guard for most of the night.

[waya]

I have one general rule for going to clubs..... No....
I have been to several, and worked protection jobs in them, but personally I am too on edge in that type of environment and feel like I am working.

Visually scanning is a good habit to get into anywhere. I have made it something like breathing, I just do it without thinking now. Sometimes you may look strange but I find it worth it.

Rob

[khafra]

I look at people, pretty much constantly. I have that hand inconspicuously (I hope) raised club habit. I feel uncomfortable witting with my back to a door. But I'm generally not uncomfortable with people being close to me, assuming they've showered some time in recorded history. Dunno why, but I'll just submit that as a case study for any amateur psychologists here.

[Thomas Vince]

I had to reply to something Silver said about personal space before reading the entire thread, sorry!
I beleive that there are definately four ranges of combat they are:
out of range
within range
contact penetration
contact manipulation
Each of these ranges are specific and have their related principles and concepts.
The statement that a Judoka may feel more comforatable in close may be true as well as the comparison of the TKD practictioner. However here is the point,
your art should and beleive it or not most do deal with al four ranges. If your art does not deal with all four ranges of combat than you are lacking in self defense knowledge. We should be able to defend from any of the four ranges. Anyone who has trained in the Martial Arts will be more aware of his or her personal space after becoming aware of the realities of an attack.

[Thomas Vince]

Comment on Newbelives:
I would consider the wall as part of the "out of contact" range of combat and keep in mind that if I am attacked or someone walks into range I must be aware that I may not be able to back up and so i must make them back up. This changes your whole defense.

[LilBunnyRabbit]

We generally describe it as traffic lights. Green is no threat. Yellow is when they're just about close enough to touch. Red is when they're too close and you want to do something about it.

[Thomas Vince]

Oh yes,
but consider this.
Ancient saying: The true warrior wins without fighting.
Modern Application: I step behind a chair he stumbles and falls over it in his anger, I quickly exit the room!

Out of contact manipulation IS the first stage of a self defense situation. Being aware of how your environment can work for you or against you is very important. I like analogies, but if i see a Green light and someone is running the Red light opposed to my traversing I have to decide whether to brake or gun it to avoid the collision.The decision to use the brake or the gas to escape is still based on my awareness of the out of contact range. By the way this is where a lot of the "siking" comes into play, DOH!

[Freeform]

I'd agree that there's four ranges of combat.

Grappling: Closest, body on body contact.
Close Striking: Medium, Punching, knees, elbows.
Distance Striking: Long, Kicking, lunge punch, battons.
Out of Reach: Out of range, projectiles.(Throw a chair/ashtray at 'im and run!!!)

Thanx

[ladyhawk]

Would the 4 ranges of combat make make up the distance of an individual's personal space?

[fluffydoc]

I'd like to think that my personal space is smaller than the distance I can lob an ashtray!!

[Thomas Vince]

LadyHawk,

Depends on your idea of personal space, if the energy of the individual tells me that they are aggressive they could be ten feet from me and I will still be considering them in my personal space. My personal also has to with my energy and staying calm. But I do think I should further elaborate on the four ranges as i understand them.

Out of Contact: Obviously this is the stage where the distance places you out of reach of your attacker or opponent. But the environment needs to be recognized immediately and anything that can be used to your advantage, like loose gravel, a car door, a table or chair needs to be used.

Within Contact: Obviously iss the point where you can reach your opponent and he can reach you but it is the point where the attacker can be reached with say a poke to the eyes, it is your most extended reach and you cannot yet penetrate the targets with a major action. you are limited to minor action.

Contact Penetration: Is the point where you can now punch or kick the attacker and effectively penetrate into your targets on the attacker.

Contact Manipulation: This is the range where you can now execute wrist locks, arm bars, takedowns etc and manipulate the attacker.

So again I apologize for the long winded answer, and for me all four ranges are considered to be my personal space.

[Thomas Vince]

FreeForm,
I guess you could identify with
"put them IN the ground, not ON it."
But just to clarify, I did not mean to kill them if anyone is thinking about this! I meant to say the harder the better!
Freeform you are such a bruiser!
Thomas

[Freeform]

The thought never crossed my mind.......