Joint Locks

[Korpy]

I just wanted to say, I love joint locks. I've learned some and I think they're great. Does anyone wanna dicuss joint locks?

[Alexander]

Yes - I'm willing to discuss most things but I'm not sure what area of joint locking you would want to discuss. Application, perhaps? Types (if it is possible to classify them)? Or the history of these moves?

It's a pretty broad heading man...

[slipthejab]

Korpy,
You'd make one heck of a great date. :D

[Korpy]

I wouldn't mind talking about the history of them. Where do they come from?

[Alexander]

I wouldn't mind talking about the history of them. Where do they come from?
The oldest evidence for unarmed fighting techniques is on the walls of an ancient Egyptian tomb. Also the Ancient Greeks had a method of fighting known as Pankration (the Romans also adapted it to 'Greceo-Roman wrestling') and it is know that its practitionners used many of the same techniques today's Ju Jitsu and Hapkido people use. So one theory is that they came from Greece across to Asia.

Ancient Greek city states frequently fought one another, but they would always ally against a common enemy. Their Hoplites (troops armed with spear and shield, locked in a tight formation called a Phalanx) had defeated the Persian Empire's several invasions with these troops, but to the north the Greeks found they had a new neighbour: Macedon. Macedon adapted the Greek Phalanx, replacing the Hoplites with Phalanx-men (carrying a pike - a weapon as long as four men - in both hands with a smaller shield strapped to one arm; again, these men were lock in a Phalanx formation). The Macedonians, coming from he hilly plains north of Greece, also had experianced Horsemen - most notably the elite Companion Cavalry. As a result Philip I defeated the Greek City's alliance and became the de facto rular of the region. Greeks were now required to fight for the Macedonian armies.

When Philip's son, Alexander, begun his conquest of the known world it is though that the Greeks and Macedonians took the knowledge of Pankration to India (Alexander halted his conquest at India having established an alliance with the Indian King after being impressed by the man's bravery).

From India it is thought that Bodhidharma took the joint-locking techniques into China when he took Zen (or Ch'an) Buddhism into the country. And from China they supposedly spread to Korea, Japan and Okinawa. The Okinawans have all the techniques in their Karate - you just have to look for them in the Kata (and as a result I think the Koreans have got them in Tae Kwon-Do's patterns as well; but I doubt many TKD Masters would know of, or accept that there was, the Japanese influence in their system). Many of the techniques from China were adopted by the Samurai of Japan in their art of (what we call now) Ju Jitsu. Hapkido was descended from Daito-Ryu Ju-Jitsu so that is where the story ends.

So what is known is Hapkido's joint-locks definitely came from Japan, probably from Shaolin in China, perhaps from Bodhidharma in India and possibly with links to Ancient Greek Pankration. However it is also worth bearing in mind that every region these techniques passed through would have already had some sort of fighting style in it already and unless we invent a time machine it is very unlikely that we will ever know for sure which techniques came from where. Basically the older and less-well-documented the period in history, the more tenuous the links become. To say that the techniques came from ancient Egypt it really pushing it, but not totally outside the realms of possibility.

Hope that helps,
Alexander

[TheCount]

Just to clarify there is a journal to declare your love for things.

And yeh, joint locks are pretty nifty. I have a couple of main ones I aply to different situations, so much easier than knowing about 40 different ones

[wazzabi]

joint locks hurt like hell when they're done on you. that's about all i can say:o . i think they're pretty hard to pull off in a real fight, so it takes a lot of practice to make them applicable. but the practice would be worht the sweat when u see ur opponent screaming in pain for you to let go :D .

[Thomas]

On Wrist Locks in self defence

Sometimes in discussions, arts like Hapkido and Aikido and such get ribbed for teaching wrist locks in self defence situations.

1. Not all self defence is going to be used against an all-out attacker punching at you. Some of it will be in response to pulls/pushes/grabs/etc., some at a slow speed. A lock or breakaway can be better (especially legally) than knocking the guy out.

2. The level of engagement varies as does the "opponent". As a "Hapkido guy", if I am jumped on a street in the dark, I will use strikes and such to hurt him/her and then run away. But if a student at my public school, a drunk friend, a family member or such attacks me... my goal is to restrain and control until help arrives or until I can defuse the situation. In some situations, you don't have the option of delivering huge amounts of destruction to a person.

3. When learning joint locks... the actual joint locking technique is important, but there are other aspects which are just as important (if not more):

a. Your entry: setting up a joint lock requires you to manipulate an (unwilling) opponent. You will need to distract him/her with a strike/slap/kick/quick movement and use your footwork to set up for the lock itself.

b. The lock and contingency plans: you only have a short time to put the lock on and set it for a takedown or for an escort (or for a choke out). If they slip out of, or if the you miss, you must train for the next step (e.g. wrist lock into a center lock into a hammerlock)... or for an extraction.

c. extraction: This is the most important part in my mind. After you lock them up or take them down, DO NOT HELP THEM UP OR JUST "LET GO". You must "extract", either by using pressure to distance them from you as you release them (and exit) or by using strikes or breaks to incapacitate them. (Verbalization is important here as well).

Wrist locks and joint locks work. But you have to use them within the context of their strengths and weaknesses and be prepared to respond to them.
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/fo...rist+lock+entry

[JimH]

Joint locks are pain compliance techniques,they are done as a response to a grab,they are done when the opponent least expects or they are done after the opponent has been softened up by strikes.

Many people say that you cannot get these holds in real life,well you can, if you train getting inside the opponents kicking and punching range his limbs become available as they are right there to grab and he will give them to you as once you are within punching range he must grab you to do something.

Many try to employ counters and joint locks from too far,at the edge or near edge of a punch or kicking attack,learn to close the gap,and then they work Great.

This is why training must become dynamic,learn to flow, and stop being robotic or preset in a response.
.................................................. ......
One to two years ago we all saw the video over and over on the news of the Girl who was approached and the attacker grabbed her wrist and walked her off to her death.
Imagine had that poor girl just known a breakaway, or any resposne to a wrist grab, she could have run and saved her life.

[Hapkid0ist]

The problem is, is that the general macho attitude is that a punch or a kick is going to solve all your problems and is allways the answer.

[KenpoDavid]

Joint locks are pain compliance techniques

not always!!

[Hapkidoin P]

Hi All,

Some joint locks are pain compliance..when used as come-along or arresting techniques.

I think it would be safe to say the majority of us Hapkidoin train for the use of joint locks more in regards to a break than a come along. Given the nature of our art..it is more of a "last resort"..then I don't need to worry about whether I "have him" securely or not.

I train in joint locks from a "taking away the weapons" standpoint..if I'm going to use them,odds are I have run out of options and am fighting for my life,at that point I'm not concerned with escort holds and come-alongs or whether they hurt enough to contain the attacker's movement..I want that offending limb out of the fight..and hopefully the rest of the attacker will follow. :D

[Hapkid0ist]

I will not even fight until it is a last resort. If I resort to physical action then my belief is that I have no other option but to do what I have to do. Just like the self-defense tier. The moment it gets to a hands on action then it has gone to far. If someone I do not know approaches me and wants to hurt me then as far as I am concerned this person means me harm. The degree is based on their level of emotional anger, though not always exact. There would be no other reason for a stranger to attack me other than to harm me, and as far as I am concerned they could be intent on severe harm or worse. So When I defend myself my locks are less pain compliance and more agressive messures. And becouse I look at things this way I do my best to avoid physical situations, then I can tell authorities or a judge that I had no other recourse but to put them down. Pain compliance comes in when a female is involved, the person is drunk, but not hammered, or anytime the situation may call for less than agressive measures, whatever that may be.
But its like I said, if some stranger decides they want to hurt me then I have no choice but to assume they mean to do me harm, more than just a punch or two. This is something I would expect from a friend that is held back becouse of emotional connection. With some stranger there is no connection except them wanting to connect their fist with my face. This is when it goes from control to breaking.

[JimH]

Pain Compliance covers all ranges of pain from slight to increasing degrees all the way to breaks.

A break is an extreme level of pain,but a brake does not always fit the situation and the Break must fit the needs of self protection within the law.

A Break does not always allow for the end of the situation,as once we break the limb at the joint we are limited in what we can now do with it in regards to finishing the attacker,we must know how to use the broken limb,still inflict pain and control the attackers movements.

The break also ends much of the pain that we inflict because now the resistance we used ,from the stationary/fixed joint ,is now gone

Yes we want to remove the limb but there are many ways to do so without resorting to the final option of breaking the joint.
(this why we learn joint locks,as well as other techniques, because they are a versitile technique not ending in one result,this is also why we learn strikes and attacks and pressure points.

Breaking is compliance ,isn't it?

The majority of situations would/do require a much lesser degree of compliance and pain than a break.

All situations are not life and death,there are many in betweens.

Our job as Martial artists,hapkidoists and humans is to end the conflict with the minimum force required and the minimum damage to us and our
opponent(s)
(The law also says the same ,the only time is when we can articulate the need for more severe measures as based on our fear for our lives or a weapon is used that may terminate our lives)

[Hapkid0ist]

Breaking is compliance ,isn't it?

The majority of situations would/do require a much lesser degree of compliance and pain than a break.

Well, I guess this is what is based on individual interpritation. I think on one level yes and on another no. A pain compliance technique is a technique used to get a person to do certian desired actions, be it submit, put thim in a body position that offers less threat and submit, to remove a person from a local/situation. A break can do the same, but is usually implimented when comliance is not possible, be it the situation is at a point that makes it impossible or the person has a pain tollerance that may make the technique ineffective. This is when you are forced to go to the break. Where compliance is ment to control and subdue/end the situation with little damage, the break is ment to mainly just end it reguardless.

As for when to go from one to another, you must be able to read the assailant and the situation to see when it must esculate to the break over the compliance. This is where the practice and training truly come in handy. Not just to recognise but develop the level of control needed to not go overboard.

[JimH]

A break can do the same, but is usually implimented when comliance is not possible, be it the situation is at a point that makes it impossible or the person has a pain tollerance that may make the technique ineffective. This is when you are forced to go to the break. Where compliance is ment to control and subdue/end the situation with little damage, the break is ment to mainly just end it reguardless.

A Break is compliance of the ultimate level,the break is done in hopes to make the opponent stop what they are trying to do and comply with your wishes,doing what you want them to.

In Many people a break may not make them comply,they continue to attack,then you must use something else to control them,make them stop,make them comply,you may have to break something else or make them see that pain in the other arm or leg can result in a break.

A Break may not end anything.

Have you ever broken a Bone?

I have broken a few ,while there was some pain it did not stop me from doing things.
Examples:

I was hit by a van and broke my ankle,I went ice skating with my friends afterwards and went to the hospital the next day.
( I was told I should not have been able to do that,I was told I would never walk witout a limp, never run or jog,WRONG on all counts)

I was wrestling with a friend,I had him in a seated choke from the rear,his legs were wrapped and he grabbed my fingers and said he would break them if I did not let go,he broke two before he went unconscious.
( I was of sober mind and body,imagine a person who is not,will a break stop them?)

Again,a Break is a form of pain compliance,if the Break does not stop them,they did not comply,try,try again.

[Hapkid0ist]

I broke my ankle a long time agoe. I was not going anywere.
I agree with you, but in putting it this way anything can be a compliance technique as long as they comply. And if they don't then as you said, try again.

[Hapkidoin P]

I also don't fight unless I am absolutely forced to.

I do assume that since I am in this hypothetical fight,I have tried to avoid it by any means necessary and am now trying to survive.

Using pain compliance,to me,means that I have a hold or lock and am trying to control or submit or hold someone in a position by means of pressure...fine for people with jobs that call for justified force..LEO's,Bouncers,and such..or for use on drunken "tuff-guy" friends or people with attitude problems occasionally. :D

To me,breaking is a removal or reducer of that person's tool. If they can keep going after that..great,but the amount of damage they will be able to inflict after the fact has been reduced dramatically or ceased to be. One less weapon to contend with.

I have broken many bones...not a good feeling and I don't think I would be going after someone with a broken wrist,dislocated shoulder,fractured ankle,hyper-extended elbow..or any other extremity really. One can always go on,but like I said,the effeciency has been dramatically reduced.

[KenpoDavid]

Pain compliance is the threat of a break. If you twist somebody's wrist until it breaks, will twisting that wrist again involve more or less pain???

[Mtal]

Interesting post. I have a few questions on Joint Locks.

Can you rely on them as your main weapon in your arsenal when fighting?

Do different styles have different methods or strategys when locking someone or go for different targets, etc......? Now is a certain style of locks or lets say a particular martial arts style more effective than others?

Can you really used locks against a striker? Ok lets say you really like to use locks and practice them alot, now I know you really have to fake or do something to make your lock effective, like a kick or punch, etc... but if your fighting and expert in striking, I think that might be hard.

What styles rely on them mostly (would not mind trying something like that)?

[JimH]

Joint locks as in Hapkido can be applied off an attack or grab if the victim is aware enough and fast enough to react and make them happen as soon as grabbed or punched.

If there is a delay, a stand and think, about what is going on or the situation is dynamic and moving,(if one has not trained against those attacks one may hesitate),hesitation makes going into a joint attack slightly harder,one then must use distraction,(verbal and Physical) and then move to some sort of softening or what I call making the attacker compliant to allow one to get and pull off a joint lock.

Off a punch ,if one can take it,redirect it or move it so that the attacker is off balanced then you have a shot at moving into the joint lock,but again it must be fast or some form of softening must take place.

As far as various arts using various locks or joint attacks,the Aiki arts are formed from the same base art of jujitsu so they are similar be they Jujitsu,Hapkido or Aikido.

If one speaks of true implementation of their art on the street ,then they should train the art against various styled opponents in various scenarios to find what is truly doable by them on the street in the heat and pressure of battle.

Now if again we speak of a Boxer/Striker,one needs to know how that person ,Most likely,will act.

The attacking limb will come from a position of power,the rear,so one can move circular to the same side as the attacking limb to take them from a position of angle that negates that blow and from outside.
Or
The attacker can be left to move on us and we take him from the inside,by moving in,shortening his range to negate his strike and then strike?pary the limb while making a simulataneous vital strike to soften.

Most people tend to want to end a confrontation with the first large ,hard,power shot,they do not start with jabs,combos and stuff to work into the power shot,so if one understands that then the attack can be brought into a joint lock fairlly quickly by simultaneous move in,parry the strike (inside or outside),capture ,strike and joint lock.

If the strikes one makes to vital points on the attacker ,such as the side of the neck or the ribs or where ever ,do not soften and the opponent has fight left in them then continue to attack vital spots or joints(limb destructions) to gain compliance to make the joint lock or just end the confrontation.

Everything we do and learn is usable,but we must use our time to train it and make it work to fit our needs,be it for art,tradition,sport,Self Defense or health.

If one wants to make joint locks work for Real then get training partners who will act out scenarios using skills you want to train against.(boxers,grapplers,ground fighters or with weapons)

Training in an art such as Hapkido allows one to have options,like kicks and hand strikes as well as joint locks, and throws.the more tools one has in their bag of tricks the more options one has in response to various threats of attack.