Some Thoughts on Religion

[Joe_GA]

In one sense, religion can be seen as an art. It is the art of reverence for the divine. The divine may be defined in many ways, but it is generally understood to be that which is sacred and grounds all of life.

As social animals, we do not live in privately constructed worlds, but we organize and create institutions and traditions through which our arts are handed down. Religion is a social institution through which bodies of people, who have a shared understanding of the sacred, hand down the traditions concerning the practice of their art. In a sense, this is analogous to the martial arts, and to other arts for that matter.

There are those who make their art their life's calling. They study and train for years in order to become the bearers of the tradition and the teachers of others. The Sifu is the bearer of his art for a new generation of students. It is the responsibility of the teacher to hand down the authentic art and not corrupt it.

In religion, as in all of the arts, there are those teachers who are humble, virtuous, and dedicated. They lead their students into greater knowledge and excellence. They form communities of people who learn to love their art and to love one another as comrades. There are also bad teachers. Such teachers are not interested in the true good of the art or their students. They may not teach much of anything that is useful and may even do much harm. The bad priest or minister will use his congregation for money, sexual abuse, or other corrupt activities. The martial arts teacher, the university professor, or the trained violinist may do the same. Those who are absorbed in their own egos will use their art for their own gain to the harm of everyone else.

If one enters a martial arts school where such a corrupt teacher is practicing, one may become disillusioned and even tempted to write off the art altogether. If one joins a religious community and the priest abuses his power and causes scandal, then one may become disillusioned and write off religion altogether. On the other hand, one may begin in a bad place, become disillusioned, and then move on to a better place. One may find a new school and one's faith in the art may be renewed. One may find a new congregation and one's faith in the sacred is renewed.

In any case, whatever we devote ourselves to, we do so socially, otherwise we cannot succeed. We cannot learn a martial art in private. We must have an experienced teacher and comrades to guide us. The same is true for religion. Concepts and practices of "private spiritualities" are really just borrowed from the religious traditions that have preserved them. In seeing things this way, I think its possible for some people, and certainly its possible for me, to get beyond the scandals and the corruption of religion, to see what it is and should be in its true essence; the social art of reverencing the divine. Peace.

[Topher]

Tip: Might get responses if you use grammar in your post ;)

[Joe_GA]

Tip: Might get responses if you use grammar in your post ;)

Thanks, I must have been tired when I posted it. Problem is fixed :).

[Jarkovitch]

The bad priest or minister will use his congregation for money, sexual abuse, or other corrupt activities. The martial arts teacher, the university professor, or the trained violinist may do the same. (By Joe GA)

First off, as a trained violinist I'd like to feel slightly offended becase I would like to feel that my music would be meaningless if used in a corrupt manner. But befor I say any more, I agree there are thoes who would use anything pure and beautiful to their own gain and that sickens me. I see music like religon. It can been seen as a thechonly persise art, but there is somthing pure and spiritule about the whole thing.

The sad part is, that in the case where your young in your art, your impressionable. And if thoes who are corrupt getto you first you either A) wash out and see only evil, or B) become just as corrupt as you teacher.

I'm not sure wich is worse.

[tekkengod]

this will surprise everyone, but for the most part, i totally agree. Although i will say that if your going to compare MA to religion, i think we can agree that organized religion would have more mcdojos and corrupt teachers than TKD and Tai-chi combined! {lol!} i think that organized religion has gone an entierly diffrent route with their indocternation meathods and political rhetoric, which drives alot of people away. But i think anything can be an art because when viewed from the right prespective anything can be beautiful, and there is an innate beauty in all passions/hobbies/ideas.

[Jesh]

But i think anything can be an art because when viewed from the right prespective anything can be beautiful, and there is an innate beauty in all passions/hobbies/ideas.

Wow Tekken, a moderate answer from you... very nice and you're absolutely right.

[Joe_GA]

this will surprise everyone, but for the most part, i totally agree. Although i will say that if your going to compare MA to religion, i think we can agree that organized religion would have more mcdojos and corrupt teachers than TKD and Tai-chi combined! {lol!} i think that organized religion has gone an entierly diffrent route with their indocternation meathods and political rhetoric, which drives alot of people away. But i think anything can be an art because when viewed from the right prespective anything can be beautiful, and there is an innate beauty in all passions/hobbies/ideas.

You know, based on my experience, I would have to agree. One of the great scandals of religion is that there is so much corruption. I suspect that because religion is organized around things that believers see as fundamental to life, it is an easy place for the corrupt to gain control over others.

[Joe_GA]

The bad priest or minister will use his congregation for money, sexual abuse, or other corrupt activities. The martial arts teacher, the university professor, or the trained violinist may do the same. (By Joe GA)

First off, as a trained violinist I'd like to feel slightly offended becase I would like to feel that my music would be meaningless if used in a corrupt manner. But befor I say any more, I agree there are thoes who would use anything pure and beautiful to their own gain and that sickens me. I see music like religon. It can been seen as a thechonly persise art, but there is somthing pure and spiritule about the whole thing.

The sad part is, that in the case where your young in your art, your impressionable. And if thoes who are corrupt getto you first you either A) wash out and see only evil, or B) become just as corrupt as you teacher.

I'm not sure wich is worse.

Sorry, didn't mean to produce an offensive example. And I doubt seriously that there are many, if any, violin masters out there corrupting people. It was only meant to reinforce the idea that any art can be corrupted.

[cloudz]

"To know that what is impenetrable to us really exists, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their primitive forms, this knowledge, this feeling, is at the centre of true religiousness." - Einstein

[Strafio]

Good topic and replies. I've nothing to argue, nothing to add. Keep it up. :)

[tekkengod]

Wow Tekken, a moderate answer from you... very nice and you're absolutely right.

:D


Joe, i think thats exactly right. when you're appealing to a set of beliefs which you yourself can dictate at whim, its very easy to manipulate.

you know what i just realized. My problem is with organized religion, not with the concept of god. :eek:

[Strafio]

you know what i just realized. My problem is with organized religion, not with the concept of god. :eek:
Wehey!
Out of interest, what sort of made you come to the conclusion that there's a God? After our arguments in the "Do you believe in God thread" it must be quite a story. :)

[tekkengod]

Wehey!
Out of interest, what sort of made you come to the conclusion that there's a God? After our arguments in the "Do you believe in God thread" it must be quite a story. :)

its quite a sacry story! i'll send it to you later. :)

[Topher]

its quite a sacry story! i'll send it to you later. :)
Wow thats quite a turn around. So what happened? ;)

[tekkengod]

Don't get me wrong homer. i still hate organized religion, buti believe in....something.

[Jesh]

Could this be a case of "divine intervention" ??? :D

[Joe_GA]

:D


Joe, i think thats exactly right. when you're appealing to a set of beliefs which you yourself can dictate at whim, its very easy to manipulate.

you know what i just realized. My problem is with organized religion, not with the concept of god. :eek:

Tekken,

Sometimes I hate organized religion too. In fact, I often find that my biggest source of doubts about the reality of God comes from my observation of my fellow religionists (and observations about myself). It is the immorality and hypocrisy of religious people that is the greatest scandal I think. And when one knows atheists and agnostics who are intelligent, virtuous people then one realizes that no religious person has a lock on virtue. My tentative view is that most people believe what they do blindly, based on how they were raised. Those are the people who are most likely to be oppressed and abused by corrupt leaders. Those who come to a point where they intelligently question their beliefs and strive to find out how well they are justified, are more likely to not tolerate such abuse. As a teacher and as a church member, my concern is that not enough laity are getting the proper kind of religious education that emphasizes the use of the mind to search for truth. An intelligent and self-respecting laity can hold a corrupt leadership accountable. They can also hold each other accountable. But, my experience has been that the the emotional need for certitude trumps serious intellectual investigation. Now, before I get flamed by someone, let me say that these are just general observations based on my experience as a Christian layman from a religious family who has experience of several different religious denominations and a good bit of contact with Muslims and followers of pagan religions (and eastern religions) as well.

[tekkengod]

Tekken,

Sometimes I hate organized religion too. In fact, I often find that my biggest source of doubts about the reality of God comes from my observation of my fellow religionists

And when one knows atheists and agnostics who are intelligent, virtuous people then one realizes that no religious person has a lock on virtue.

My tentative view is that most people believe what they do blindly, based on how they were raised.

But, my experience has been that the the emotional need for certitude trumps serious intellectual investigation.

then we are in agreement.
i think this demonstrates my point "believe what they do blindly based on how they were raised" EXACTLY! thats what i've been saying the whole time!
and the last line shows my thoughts on how religion acts as a crutch, and actually i don't' think i could have said it better myself.
The atheists i know are often much better people than those who are overly religious, so that kills the notion that religion teaches morality or ect.

[Topher]

then we are in agreement.
i think this demonstrates my point "believe what they do blindly based on how they were raised" EXACTLY! thats what i've been saying the whole time!
and the last line shows my thoughts on how religion acts as a crutch, and actually i don't' think i could have said it better myself.
The atheists i know are often much better people than those who are overly religious, so that kills the notion that religion teaches morality or ect.
I agree. If a non-religious person is just as, if not more virtuous, open-minded, moral, intelligent than a religious person then what has the religion actually given the religious person, seeing as the non-religious person has the same, if not more. ;)

[Jarkovitch]

Sorry, didn't mean to produce an offensive example. And I doubt seriously that there are many, if any, violin masters out there corrupting people. It was only meant to reinforce the idea that any art can be corrupted.

Hey .no offence taken. Its just a sad sickening, yet very true point you bring up and it really amused me that you would choose the term trained voilinist as that is what I do above all other things, my voilin.

[Strafio]

I agree. If a non-religious person is just as, if not more virtuous, open-minded, moral, intelligent than a religious person then what has the religion actually given the religious person, seeing as the non-religious person has the same, if not more. ;)
And vice versa. :)
Some people find their "beliefs" give them meaning and purpose in life, no matter what else happens to them, be they atheist, theist, whatever. I think it's all good so long as you're open minded enough to respect differing beliefs.

Organised religion is alright depending on how "organised" it is.
The ideal organised religion is where people who believe in the same thing come together to worship/practice together, just like footballers might organise going to the park to play football together. But if these footballers started dragging non-footballers onto the pitch and hassling/forcing them to play, that would be very wrong. It's when the organisers go too far and push organising "get togethers" into organising "lives"... that it gets a little iffy...