Belt/Ranking System

[pgm316]

Do you think its better to have a belt ranking system or not?

[pgm316]

Argh, I clicked on the wrong one, again! :eek:

[Adam]

As a student and not a teacher, I feel the belt system is rather useless as it seems to ME that it doesn't so much reflect the ability of the martial artist as the length of time he has studied in a particular style. The best fighters rarely seem to be the ones with the highest grade. If there is to be a belt system at all, I would like the grading system to be changed into a situation in which my sensei came over to me after class and said "Adam, you've improved your fighting skills, I will now award you with a yellow belt" Instead of all the hype around the gradings. Like at an exam, people can perfor well at a grading and still lack concentration in the dojo.
Just my thoughts.

[Tosh]

This is a double barrelled question here

1) The belt system is usefull IF implemented correctly

i.e. Belts for time served = McDojo, sorry my personel opinion

2) If given the oppurtunity the belt system is not neccessary.

Belt levels DO NOT equal fighting ability. Belt levels show what techniques you have been shown and you can demonstrate them in a controlled environment.

Fighting and knowledge of technique can be two seperate things. Since when was fighting the be all and end all of Martial Arts?


Belt systems have their place as long as they are used in the right place and for the right reasons......instead of trying to make a quick buck out of students!

[Andy Murray]

Here's a question for you!

Let's say you go to a class, and are offered the choice of what belt to wear, White,Red or Black, which would you choose?

[Tosh]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
Here's a question for you!

Let's say you go to a class, and are offered the choice of what belt to wear, White,Red or Black, which would you choose?

Stigma means most people would choose Black.

Doesn't matter wot colour cos I get to choose the belt. :D

P.s. Admiral Ackbar says Andy's post is a Trap!

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by tosh_spice
Andy's post is a Trap!

A leading question? Moi? :D

I understand the point some make about it being easier for Instructors to see who's who and who should be doing what, but this mainly applies to big classes of say twenty or more, i.e TKD or similar.

In classes of ten or less, an Instructor worth his salt should be able to identify people and their needs without belts.

I went to a seminar with about 50 people there, and the person taking it, got us to split into three groups; Beginner, Intermediate and Advanced. He left it up to us which group we chose.

[pgm316]

Originally posted by Andy Murray

I went to a seminar with about 50 people there, and the person taking it, got us to split into three groups; Beginner, Intermediate and Advanced. He left it up to us which group we chose.

Sounds a debatable idea.

I can imagine loads of beginners that think they know it in the advanced ground and advanced people in the intermediate group, just wanting to fit in low key ;)

I'd probably pick red in that case, intermediate.

Obviously not an expert in their system, but not wanting to be stuck with a pure beginner either.

[Cain]

Don't care - If training is your goal I don't see why they should bother you so much as complaining about them....

|Cain|

[pgm316]

Originally posted by cain_charlie
Don't care - If training is your goal I don't see why they should bother you so much as complaining about them....

|Cain|


But thats why I do complain, training is my goal, not following a syllabus to achieve the next level in a ranking system.

[firesprite]

It is useful though, in that some people, like kids need something to aim for in order to continue to improve, and the belt system is useful for that, its alot eaiser for a beginner or child to aim for a belt than to keep putting everything in with no difinite reasonably attainable goal

[Andrew Green]

It also depends on WHAT you are teaching.

It is less necessary for sport-based styles like wrestling, kickboxing, Judo, MMA, etc.

But for "traditional" styles which are based on forms and patterns it will be necessary to motivate and retain many students.

[WhiteWizard]

I think they have a use for showing people's achievments if used correctly i.e. you've been here for 5 minutes have a orange belt is not very useful but if belts are gained over time by properly performing techniques then they can give the student confidence in their own ability. I don't think thy should ever be the focus of martial arts training just a guide a long the way

[waya]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
Here's a question for you!

Let's say you go to a class, and are offered the choice of what belt to wear, White,Red or Black, which would you choose?

White, I can always move higher in the group if needed.

[Fergie Boy]

Black shows up stains less and will be easier to clean.

[WhiteWizard]

yes but black is more difficult to change with white you have a blank canvas to work on.

[booksie_girl]

White, since I know little, and know that I know little.

[sys-x]

I'd be interested to know how people who've already reached black belt vote on this one versus those who haven't.

Just wondering if it's the case that once you've "been there, done that" it doesn't seem as important as it did when it was still something to work towards.

[Andy Murray]

Originally posted by sys-x
Just wondering if it's the case that once you've "been there, done that" it doesn't seem as important as it did when it was still something to work towards.

I'd guess that varies from person to person Sys-x.

Some people see the belt as an inevitable posession but don't cherish it.

Some people seek the posession, but then realise it wasn't all that important after all.

Some people hang on to it to defend their past motives?

For some people it marks the end of Martial Arts, and they lose the capacity to learn.

[Tosh]

Originally posted by Andy Murray
I'd guess that varies from person to person Sys-x.

For some people it marks the end of Martial Arts, and they lose the capacity to learn.

Ahem,

Some people see it as an money making scam.

Some people see it as an administration tool like passing exams you take at school.

[KenpoDavid]

I think that, barring abuse, a ranking system is useful. It gives intermediate goals that can be achieved, giving a sense of accomplishment periodically as we train. If the promotions are consistent (that is, applied objectively) then it works well, that's what I've seen in my limited experience.

I'm proud of how hard I have trained to achieve my rank, sure it's still pretty junior rank but I worked hard to get it.

It also can build camaraderie betwen students - for exmaple, the 3 other purple belts and I tend to congrgate together on breaks in class etc mainly becasue we are all trying to learn many of the same things, trying to overcome similar challenges at the same time... also the rankings stimulate a competitive thing between us - I am determined to be the next among us to be promoted, so I make sure I practice more and better than the other purples do...

On the other hand, My 16yr old daughter, whi has had 2 lessons now, has declared that she wouldn't mind staying a white belt forever since the "white belts are the cutest". Sensei advised her that at higher ranks she can match her hair-ties and toe-nails to her belt, so maybe that will motivate her... LOL

David C

[Andy Murray]

How opinions may change with time?

[pgm316]

Originally posted by Andy Murray

Some people hang on to it to defend their past motives?

For some people it marks the end of Martial Arts, and they lose the capacity to learn.

The belt system seems like a life cycle to me, I've seen people start at white, train really hard, very motivated (usually annoyingly so), motivation will often drop off after a couple/few years training (if they make it that far). Then as they reach brown/black belt motivation will pick up as they feel years of training has paid off, their fighting ability is getting to a good standard and their getting to blackbelt! After that they hit that plateau, no goals to go for, motivation takes a big fall......

At blackbelt you really find out who a martial artist is.
They'll either
1, quit soon after unmotivated.
2, get caught up in politics and avoid much training
3, become a good martial artist

Is it caused by the belt system getting their thought process into that way of thinking?

sort of a repeat of Andy's post there! :D

[karatekid]

erm.............
i cant vote on this one cos i think...
the belt ranking system shows your *personal* achievement.

[inosanto1]

I would start a session wearing white and leave wearing white, learning never stops, your instructor knows how good you are, if he is any cop then he will tell you then you are ready, not just make quick money!!

They are not martial artists.

[cal_JJJ]

_____________________________
"Here's a question for you!

Let's say you go to a class, and are offered the choice of what belt to wear, White,Red or Black, which would you choose?"
_____________________________
"I'd be interested to know how people who've already reached black belt vote on this one versus those who haven't. "
_____________________________

I follow the same practice as my teacher does. When visiting a school for the first time always wear a white belt & let the head instructor place you according to your abillities, & be thankfull for the opportunity to train not the opportunity to show off your rank.

[jonestown9]

White, I'm just not that good, and in a class i'm not familiar with, I'd rather not look like an ass.

[David]

There was a tense moment when GM's son came to my town. He gave everyone sashes to wear but I refused (I was scared) becasue I wasn't in it for that. After a week of soul searching i wore a sash but I was not happy with it.

-David

[tai-gip]

I was told that all belts started white and then as the student trained more got all sweaty and dirty this ran into the belt making it eventualy turn black and then to show that both master and student do the same technique with only the attitude and thinking behind the movement being different the student sweats more which washes out the dirt making it white again and so on and so on

I dont believe in belts they just make people think they no more.... when i was a junior instructor in wing chun i wore a level 2 (out of 10) sash like a yellow belt for three years and i trained everday people i taught who then got a higher sash actualy started to act like they where better and knew more (i also always played down what i could do but not that much)

so i dont think a lot of gradings but if people want to make a living it seems to help.. and it puts smiles on a lot of kids faces when they pass the grading,,,,

[LilBunnyRabbit]

Belts can be useful, if someone's just switched to a different school and is having trouble with their technique, then they want to be able to find an AI who knows the technique. It also helps when you have different drills taught at different levels, since you can split the class quickly, and of course as people have mentioned, it does help to stop people trying to do drills that are beyond them, even if the only reason is that they don't know the appropriate techniques yet.

[Jingersnap]

I'd choose a white belt...so I could dye it whatever colour I like...possibly a nice pastel pink! :D

On a more serious note, I think the grading system is just a means to an end...ultimately, your rank only tells people what you know *in theory* and not how well you can apply them in compromising situations! Still, it is a useful gauge and a visualisable goal for the students.

[daftyman]

For: Useful in that you would be able to find the more advanced students to ask questions.
Against: The person may have the belt, but not really deserve it.

I can see how some people need to know how good they are, and that some people like to know that the advice is being given from a 'skilled' person. But I also feel that the actions of the person should say more about his ability than the clothes he/she wears.

I'd choose the black belt, cos that coordinates with my wardrobe better! I have a number of black belts and a brown belt and my trousers have not fallen down yet!

[cybermonk]

Personally I dont like belts and dont use belts or have any respect for them. As long as I have been training we have always used black sashes because it is customary of the system I train in to do so. Everyone wears them and they are there for a reason--to protect the internal organs from the damage that the snapping of the waist for power is known to do over time(to keep the organs in place so they dont shake around inside you). You want to ask questions in class? Look at the people standing in the first row, they will have the answers. You want to know how good I am? Frankly, there is only one way to find out, what color my belt is will have no effect on how good I fight.

[Xcentric]

Whatever man i don't care..i just like to train .
the belts like rewards for your hard work..thats just the way i see it .

[Stingrae789]

To andy i would wear the belt that held up my trousers the best:D

[dfilson]

The belt ranking system serves a purpose for younger students for the mere fact that they need something to focus on. I really don't see much sense in it for adults though assuming they are training for themselves and not to have a rank to brag about. Just in my own house I see it. If it weren't for regular gradings my kids would never want to go to class ( as if it isn't hard enough to get them there anyway with everything else they are involved in ), but on the other hand my wife doesn't care if she ever advances in rank as long as she is still learning and enjoying the class.

[chungmoomonkey]

i like it

[Hiroshi Takami]

My cousin does Karate and I agree with him that originally that warriors and parctiioners of MA's wore a Whit belt and it would get dirty showing they ahve trained long time and it shows greatness, so it was teh balck belt, colours are a bit arguable.