Taking it to the grave . . .

[Utotin]

Hey all! I have occaisionally heard of Masters who admit they they will never teach their students "everything" they know, and will take some of their best techniques to the grave.

Obviously this is not an issue that is exclusive to Hapkido, but I was wondering what you guys think of a master taking his techniques to the grave. Is this something that is necessary for a master to always be one step ahead of his students and/or other Masters? Is this a selfish act that ultimately harms the art? Does it not really matter? Whatcha think?

[zac_duncan]

I think that some teachers just don't get a chance to share everything they know before they die. Don't forget that even though they're a "grandmaster" they too are still learning right up until they pass on. It's probably impossible then for them to transmit everything to their students, they can do their best, but they can't get everything.

Now, keeping something to yourself even though you could teach it and you have people who can learn it is selfishness and it's a shame.

[Jointlock]

Along the same lines, I beleive that there are things that a Grandmaster/Master cannot convey or teach. These things have to be learned through experience and practice. These amount more to concepts than physical techniques. The reason that these things would be taken to the grave is because it is impossible to convey it must be earned.

I experienced a great deal of this myself when I began teaching, I had to learn new ways to teach people how to do the techniques that I've done 1000 times myself. Everyone learns different and we've all had different prior experiences so you have to teach your information in a way that they can understand it. I could say and show someone all day to put your hips into a punch but until they try it and use some trial and error they're not going to figure it out.

[Utotin]

I understand there are things that we "forget" to teach for various legitimate reasons. I'm talking about intentionally holding back techniques.

[Jointlock]

Originally posted by Utotin

I understand there are things that we "forget" to teach for various legitimate reasons. I'm talking about intentionally holding back techniques.

For some reason they don't feel that any of there students are deserving of this information. Which coincides with what I said above. If the student hasn't shown mastery in things that the GM has taught then it would not be possible to pass on the information because they don't understand the theories leading up to it. For instance everyone knows the theory of relativity is E=MC^2. But, does everyone know the process that brings us to that conclusion? Just like anything else, you don't learn a Jump spin side kick without learning a side kick then a spin then a jump then putting them all together.

Other reasons could be lack of trust, but I find it hard to believe that a GM trying to pass on his art doesn't have any students that he trusted.

[JimH]

Maybe some masters just claim to have more to teach,but say they won't teach everything and will take certain things to the grave to just to keep and peak a followers interest and keep him/her around,waiting for a morsel of the ultimate knowledge?

I would agree with Zac,Someone who has been in the arts and has been training should be always one step ahead of their students,maybe not in actual knowledge of new techniques,but definately in terms of ability to make what is known work with minimum strength but full on technical ability.

Few masters,teachers or instructors are willing to tell a student "you have all the knowledge I can give you, it is time to leave",sorry but I have never met or seen one who does this.
(maybe in the TV show or Movie "KungFu" or maybe the movie "The Last Dragon",but not in reality)

An Art means a life time commitment to perfection,depending on you ,personally,that commitment may be all the way to the grave.

[American HKD]

Greetings

I heard from Ji Han Jae that Koreans are very bad at passing on Arts and keeping good records in general.

The Chinese are the best and Japanese are second but it's true the Koreans take things with them to the grave.

On purpose or not ???

[JimH]

"Taking things to the Grave " could also mean that there are things they learned that they do not like,that the feel are not of use,and just plain ole stuff they are not intersted in, but know.

I believe that years ago arts ,like Daito Ryu Aiki Jujitsu ,Tae Kyun(many reports say it was a full range street fighting system) and many other arts,were a more complete art (more or less resembling a fuller curriculum similar to MMA)

I know that today we in Hapkido do add ground work and that once you know how the body responds to Techniques,hits,grabs,holds and locks,it really does not matter where you fight from,but I also never did ,never trained or tried,actual ground work prior to the first UFC,now we do it,very basics,but we do it.

I believe that over the years Masters who did all these various ranges and knew more and did more in the various ranges,either felt some things were not advantageous for Real use or they did not,personally like certain ranges or areas of combat.

Even today I know instructors who have vast knowledge of Ground work but they teach the basics because they do not feel a full curriculum of Ground work is needed,nor wanted by many students,so in an instance like that the vast knowledge the instructor may have ,never will be seen by the students.

I am sure that if Choi, actually/directly, learned aiki Jutsu from Takeda for all those years that he knew alot more than was passed on to any of his students,as what was taught grew from the knowledge of Choi but from the needs of Suh,Bok Sup (who wanted to improve his knowledeg,but in relation to his Judo)

Again this is just my view and opinion what I have seen and read as the history of many arts,not meant as an actual depiction of what was/is taught and passed on.

[Slindsay]

I doubt that many masters will take stuff with them to the grave, if they kept on doing this eventually Hapkido wouldn't even know how to throw a punch!

Saying that I'm sure that people will not always be taught everything they need to know from their masters so they should look for things that they cvan add to an art, afterall theres really no point trying to freeze an art ata certain point in time.

[MaxG]

This is kinda like some traditional schools that I've run across that tell you that there are "secret" techniques. Or only teach certain moves to what they deam "dedicated" students. In my past experience a teacher didn't think a student was "dedicated" enough unless you earned the school a few trophies at tournaments...

Pretty lame.