Hand shake defenses

[Jointlock]

You may have read in another thread that I recently visited another Hapkido school. I wanted to ask another question about a technique set that they did there. The handshake defense.

As I was getting up from one of the techniques I asked the student that I was working with why would you take someone down that you were shaking hands with. The instructor responded by saying that there have been times when he has met the father's of some of his younger students and they have given him a death grip. If that was the case the situation could escalate after you do your technique to take them down. I was going to ask the instructor to elaborate but decided not to get into an arguement during his class. What makes it worse is that these are black belt techniques.

Does anyone practice defenses from a hand shake? If so what is the purpose? I suppose someone could shake your hand and then sucker punch you. But, for the most part I only shake hands with people that I am happy to see/meet.

[Slindsay]

I was taught a thumblock for use in against a deadly handshake.

Christ alone knows what I was meant to use it for, supposedly it was for in case they pulled you in to a headbut or sucker punch, personally I suspect my nose would be broke long before I could put the thumb lock on.

Allegedly it was to deal with that common problem of people petending to shake your hand after getting uppity but then suckering you when you least expect it. Nowadays I just use it on people who bore me in conversation.

[zac_duncan]

Nothing more dangerous than letting someone shake your hand... I think these are taught primarily to demonstrate locks that are hard to teach from ther angles.

I seriously don't understand the idea of handshake "defense". But, whatever.

[klaasb]

The thumblock can be pretty painfull though.
Try to apply the same lock with your other hand to the pink while you do the thumblock :)

[Utotin]

I think its the kind of thing a GM will demonstrate for a few laughs from the crowd at testing, or that you can use to impress your friends. =)

Seriously though, its just another tool to have in your arsenal. Maybe you'll be in a situation where you'll have to do something from that grip or angle (not neccasarily a handshake) and you'll be glad to have that particular technique down. I think that there is a reason for everything taught in Hapkido.

[Jointlock]

I'm coming up with new defenses against a high five, or maybe a kiss on the cheek, or possibly even kiss blowing. Hand shake defenses to me are just as ridiculous.

[JimH]

Why would a Master have to even het to the point of taking down a students father who tries to show his strength?
What happened to extending the focus finger(the index finger) that prevents the hand from being squeezed hard and prevents any pain or discomfort.

There is also no need to take down someone,when you can do a simple break away,a strike by the knife edge of your free hand,it can be done to look like a brush off(the same strike abd reason the secret service ,bodyguards and personal protection people use it).

To the people who say that handshakes lead to a follow up attack:
well why are we shaking hands with people who may mean us harm?
(most people only shake hands with people they know)

We have a handful of handshake techniques,the Breakaway as described above,the thumblock takedown,the hit and release(using the middle finger punch to the back of the opponents hand to open it)then you have your centerlocks on and on.
Also the techniques from a cross wrist grab are all applicable.
( I am surprised that these are Black Belt techniques as they are fairly basic and ussually taught to kids or new students.(the kids would do a hand shake to a punch more than an adult,in my opinion)

The reason we do them is, in New York, you may get a panhandler and you give him some money and wants to shake hands and he may sucker punch you,the same with a drunk or intox person.

[shadow warrior]

Many restraint, take down, control - arrest techniques can be applied from a simple handshake initiated by one's self.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, many cross hand wrist root techniques can be employed to great effectiveness on a person who is either unaware of the implications or have their own less applicable ideas in mind.

Many team people I have trained in certain areas of tresspass enforcement used aspects of this theory to great effect. Particularly in public high profile social settings. Just don't project them onto the salad bar.

K. Stewart

[klaasb]

or maybe a kiss on the cheek

Please teach me that one. I was being kissed by other men on the cheek all the time when I was in Greece. :D


And please don't forget that shaking hands was not a normal way of greeting in Korea. Seeing a defense against a bow, that would be strange.
My guess would be that we in the west started teaching it as a defense against handshake.

[Jointlock]

Originally posted by Shadow Warrior

Many restraint, take down, control - arrest techniques can be applied from a simple handshake initiated by one's self.

I hadn't considered that the person initiating the shake such as security and body guards would be the ones doing the take down. That makes a little more sense. I just wish the instructor teaching them could give a reason for why.

[Thomas]

In our Combat Hapkido curriculum we have a few up to black belt (about 6) and we get a few new ones at 2nd and 3rd dan.

As for the why:
(1) As an actual self defence technique there is a possibility of people who shake your hand and don't let go and/or use it as a set up for another attack. On one hand (good pun, huh?) if the handshake is a setup for a punch, we will probably use a higher level-of-force response. If it is someone (maybe a drunk friend) who doesn't want to let go or wants to show off (Mr. Karate guy, huh?) they are good techniques to break the hold and/or restrain a person without having to hurt them too much.

(2) It another way of helping students apply their basic techniques from another entry (cross hand grab, handshake, same side wrist). You can train these from just a handshake, or with a squeeze, or with a push or pull... and with the threat of a punch.

[nj_howard]

...(2) It another way of helping students apply their basic techniques from another entry (cross hand grab, handshake, same side wrist). You can train these from just a handshake, or with a squeeze, or with a push or pull... and with the threat of a punch.
Good points, Thomas.

Does anybody train offensive techniques from the handshake grip? In other words, techniques which you initiate by grabbing your enemy's hand in the handshake grip?

[JimH]

NJHoward,
We train the offensive applications,not as much as the defensive but we train them.

We have police officers,former Police officers,Security Officers,Bouncers and we even train Personal Protection scenarios at times and all have an element where you could use handshakes and other assorted techniques in an offensive manner to move,subdue,or restrain an individual or group.

Our instructor was a NYPD Training Sergeant and he has had a large sampling of techniques from various world wide units and arts that came to train with the NYPD so we have hapkido uses for offensive approaches and grabs to locks and takedowns of potential terrorists ,suicide bombers and interdiction/3rd party intervention in confrontations.

[BackFistMonkey]

ok ... we have a "highfive" and a "hand shake" defense ( haha its about useless as a defense .... )we learn very early on to get the mechanics and general concepts of joint manipulation down .My instructor said its also taught becouse the motions are familiar if your used to playing around rough with friends as a kid . I found when ever I shook someones hand I would think about the tech .. reinforcing my understanding and eventualy I end up figuring out 7 or 8 other variations from what I taught orginaly ( not using them on poor unsuspecting people but thinking of them then and trying them out later when people have some warning ) .

Now learning it for actual use or pretending that it would be effective on someone who is attacking you is silly . But if your on the surprise offensive or just need to weight them down or gain control of an wrist to slap some cuffs or zip ties on ... I can see it being handy .

You'd think we would have heard from a ninja about this one ... it being in the "sneaky techinques " section of my head .

[JimH]

I have seen numerous attacks staged from a handshake.

When I lived in London in the mid to late 70's a handshake (especially in a pub) could lead to a pull in for a head butt,a punch in the face or glassing (where the attacker holds you in a handshake and Breaks a glass and sticks it in your face)

I have also seen attacks initiated from the handshake in Bars and clubs in New York.( a punch or strike over the British use of headbutts and glassing)

As said above, I have also seen its offensive use and need for Police,Security ,Bouncers and Body guards.
These groups also work alot of 3rd party interventions fom a handshake,especially for Body Guards.

[fire cobra]

i agree with jim h on this,in the 70s in england i seen on a few occasions the use of the hand shake to set up a head butt,also a trick of some fighters was to offer the left hand to shake and if taken they would hit with the right hand,how effective the hand shake defences would be against this type of set up attack im unsure,but i belive having them in your arsenal is a good thing especially combined with awareness and knowledge of the various set ups people can use on you,repect. :)

[American HKD]

Greetings

Hand shake defenses are basically the same as cross hand grab defense with a few additional techs.

So it shouldn't be a problem for most Hapkidoin to perform

[Nevada_MO_Guy]

Does anyone practice defenses from a hand shake? If so what is the purpose?
Check this out.
http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18097

[MaxG]

This thread gives me flashbacks to junior high/high school when my friends and I would play a game called "mercy". Essentially each of us squeezing each others hand until the other gave up.

[JimH]

If one learns how to employ the extension of the focus (index) finger,they will find that the person trying to intimidate,show off or strong arm are unsuccessful in their attempted squeezing application.
(this may lead to the squeezer feeling humiliated and he/she may then try to launch a strike)

[BackFistMonkey]

(this may lead to the squeezer feeling humiliated and he/she may then try to launch a strike)
Where do you meet these people Jim ? How insecure would you have to be to swing on someone becouse you couldnt make them wince with your mighty grip ? I have met some messed up people in my life ... but no one that messed up .

I still say hand shake defenses are not defenses at all .. but an offensive sneaky technique . The fool who swings @ me with his left while I have his right hand in mine ... and is going to be going to the floor very quickly after he gets some simple and direct close and low kicks while I step to/pull him in close and take him down . Any locks would be sunk in the transition of the throw or as he lands , not before to try and "keep him from punching" I can keep him from punching just fine once he is prone and I have an arm (hand) .

I would be keeping that hand from then on as a trophy .. worn on my waist like a title belt .

[plusone]

when of the first things i learned when i started escrima was too grab someones wrist as your shaking theyre hand, to prevent them from clearing your arm and stabbing you in the abdomen..

[Mike Flanagan]

More than once when I did security work I found it necessary to shake hands with someone to make them go away. On each occasion it did not escalate, but only because it was obvious that I was prepared for whatever they might do whilst we were shaking hands. So simply by virtue of actually having a handshake defence you're unlikely ever to need to use it.

Mike

[KenpoDavid]

perhaps while grappling you might peel somebody's hand off of you and might end up in a similar configuration where these locks might come in "handy"

[BackFistMonkey]

ok "NEW handshake defense" learned last night.

This is one is quite funny .
1. shake hands
2. lock in firm handshake
3. spin to your left as you step back a little
4. once the tension has locked up the wrist ( your BACK should be towards them now) left hand reaches behind and pushes straight down to the outer edge of their hand ( below their pinky knuckle ) .they either roll out or drop :rolleyes:

[JimH]

"they either roll out or drop "

The following is a general observation on what we do in Hapkido (aikido,jujitsu,what ever),just based on this quote,not on the move specific.
(off topic,sorry)

The problem at most schools are that we work with compliant partners who roll,drop or throw themselves,when in Reality people in the street do not do that.

They may yell,try to move,to escape, but not roll , something will give or break and they will not be in position for follow up as are our partners who roll and land in front of us.

If you want to see how things work, or how a person responds, do it to a new person in the class or find a person outside who wants to train or exchange and see what really occurs,before they learn to roll and go to avoid pain.

[BackFistMonkey]

If they have any common sense they will ... especialy if they are strong and or flexable and or have any martial arts training .. or gymnastics .. or a sense of self preservation .

[BackFistMonkey]

perhaps while grappling you might peel somebody's hand off of you and might end up in a similar configuration where these locks might come in "handy"

funny and true rare but possible

[tako3131]

Jin Jung Kwan Hapkido teaches some handshake techs. Most people will shake your hand even a person who is trying to mess with you. But the main reason is pain complice for the person who wants to test your grip.

[Hapkid0ist]

When we teach them we explain the need for them this way. As someone shakes your hand it is not unknown for that person to try and hold you in position while they try and hit you with a kick or their free hand. A dirty trick that can have serious outcomes. Now it may never happen to you, but it has been known to happen. I have heard stories about people using the hanshake as a baiting technique hoping to get ahold of the other person and eithur hit them or neutralize them while other people came in to do the dirty work.
This is one reason we are taught to use both hands to shake with. This way you have control over the other person if needed. It was original told to me to be a masters way of shaking.