Umsf?

[Wolf]

I'm just curious, has anyone heard anymore about Master Sim's United Martial Science Federation? Is it going to basically be Kuk Sool, just not in the WKSA? That's kind of the impression I get. I found one school in Alabama that used to be a Kuk Sool school, but now is part of the UMSF.
http://martialartscenter.homestead.com/

[Ricree101]

There's a contact number listed. I suppose that if we really wanted to find out, comeone could give them a call.
Also, does anyone know the website for master Simm's school? There might be information there.

[TXKukSoolBB]

I'm just curious, has anyone heard anymore about Master Sim's United Martial Science Federation? Is it going to basically be Kuk Sool, just not in the WKSA? That's kind of the impression I get. I found one school in Alabama that used to be a Kuk Sool school, but now is part of the UMSF.
http://martialartscenter.homestead.com/


Your right Paul. I did not know that SBN Bill had left also. I don't know what to make of it. Everyone that I have talked to is very quiet (or just does not know). I know that KJN Sims did not have a website listed through Kuk Sool. At least not for the last few years (not that it means anything.) All I can say is that the focus down here is still our tournament this weekend...and that is a good thing!

[KSWDragon]

There's a contact number listed. I suppose that if we really wanted to find out, comeone could give them a call.
Also, does anyone know the website for master Simm's school? There might be information there.

I did a search on google and found this website http://www.kuksoolwon-fayetteville.com but it looks like his old Kuk Sool website.

Dam it....can't view that website at work!! :bang:

It's all very hush hush - I like to know why he left, and the others as well. Quite a few seem to have gone in the same direction! :confused:

[Ricree101]

Yeah, doesn't look like it has any information on it. There is, however, a phone number and email listed.

[KSWDragon]

I'm just curious, has anyone heard anymore about Master Sim's United Martial Science Federation? Is it going to basically be Kuk Sool, just not in the WKSA? That's kind of the impression I get. I found one school in Alabama that used to be a Kuk Sool school, but now is part of the UMSF.
http://martialartscenter.homestead.com/

Just checked out that website - basically I get the impression its just Kuk Sool under a different name!

My nose is bothering me, i need to know why he & SBN Bill left!

[KSWarrior]

I think he is still going to teach Kuk Sool. Which is just traditional Korean Martial Arts. I guess it will be like what Master Rudy Timmerman did in Canada. I think Kuk Sa Nym only has a copy right on the World Kuk Sool Assoication. I can't wait to see what Master Sims has planned either. If you guys hear of something let me know!

[Wolf]

yeah there's only a trademark on "Kuk Sool Won" and "World Kuk Sool Association"

[Out-to-Lunch]

I think he is still going to teach Kuk Sool. Which is just traditional Korean Martial Arts. I guess it will be like what Master Rudy Timmerman did in Canada. I think Kuk Sa Nym only has a copy right on the World Kuk Sool Assoication. I can't wait to see what Master Sims has planned either. If you guys hear of something let me know!

Actually, just some clarification.
Grandmaster Timmerman teaches Kong Shin Bup (TM) which was founded by the late Grandmaster In Shyuk Pak (whom was a contemporary of Suh In Hyuk, a student of Choi Yong Sul, as well as a teacher to Seo In Sun {he claims so in his bio article part 2 on kidohae.com})...GM Timmerman began study of Kuk Sool as Kuk Sool Hapkido under GM Pak In Shyuk in the 1960's, his certificates came from Korea and were signed by both Suh In Hyuk and Pak In Shyuk. GM Pak moved to Toronto at some point, so GM Timmerman continued his study after GM Suh came to the US, he attended the first seminar in 1975, and in 1989 was appointed head of Kuk Sool Won for michigan and canada. So, GM Timmerman was studing/teaching Kuk Sool before he was under Kuk Sa Nim. Many people think that GM Timmerman is a simple break off of WKSA and Kuk Sool Won, this is not so. He inherited the art of Kong Shin Bup TM 1984, and was thus promoted to 8th dan KSB.
Kong Shin Bup TM included the entire old Kuk Sool Hapkido curriculum, including many of the things that WKSA has since dropped, in addition to some additions of GM Pak In Shyuk's.
So in short, the situation is different, only alike in the name issue is similar in that both GM Timmerman and KJN Simms can use Kuk Sool without issue...the issue would be using Kuk Sool Won TM or World Kuk Sool Association.

respectfully,
--josh

[Bahng Uh Ki]

GM Timmerman... inherited the art of Kong Shin Bup TM 1984, and was thus promoted to 8th dan KSB.
Kong Shin Bup TM included the entire old Kuk Sool Hapkido curriculum, including many of the things that WKSA has since dropped, in addition to some additions of GM Pak In Shyuk's.Do you know what Kong Shin Bup has that WKSA dropped?

[Out-to-Lunch]

Do you know what Kong Shin Bup has that WKSA dropped?
Well to begin with there are the hard style forms...currently WKSA only uses the 6 soft style forms to Chodan (kicho, cho gup, jeeng gup, dae gup, go gup, geum moo) whereas there was originally other "hard" style forms Taego 1, 2, and 3, as well as Wong Il, and Wong Ee, Shilla, and Pyong Ahn (not to be confused with the Tang Soo Do form)...

[Choiyoungwoo]

Do you know what Kong Shin Bup has that WKSA dropped?
__________________

Well to begin with there are the hard style forms...currently WKSA only uses the 6 soft style forms to Chodan (kicho, cho gup, jeeng gup, dae gup, go gup, geum moo) whereas there was originally other "hard" style forms Taego 1, 2, and 3, as well as Wong Il, and Wong Ee, Shilla, and Pyong Ahn (not to be confused with the Tang Soo Do form)...


So you are saying that WKSA "dropped" these or are you simply saying that rudy added these to his style after he left wksa?

BTW are the pyung ahn forms you mention different than the tsd forms?
and are Taego 1,2,3 different than tae guek of TKD?

[Out-to-Lunch]

Do you know what Kong Shin Bup has that WKSA dropped?
__________________




So you are saying that WKSA "dropped" these or are you simply saying that rudy added these to his style after he left wksa?

BTW are the pyung ahn forms you mention different than the tsd forms?
and are Taego 1,2,3 different than tae guek of TKD?

Grandmaster Timmerman did not add these forms, they have been in the curriculum since he began learning from GM Pak as I understand it, I believe they were Kuk Sool Hapkido...versus Kuk Sool Won. Taego hyung, are not Taekeuk Poomse...There is only one Pyong Ahn form in KSB versus 5 Pyong ahn hyung in Tang Soo Do....It has some similar elements (they are both hard style forms) but the forms are not the same...

[KSW_123]

Many people think that GM Timmerman is a simple break off of WKSA and Kuk Sool Won, this is not so. He inherited the art of Kong Shin Bup TM 1984, and was thus promoted to 8th dan KSB.
Kong Shin Bup TM included the entire old Kuk Sool Hapkido curriculum, including many of the things that WKSA has since dropped, in addition to some additions of GM Pak In Shyuk's.


This is the part that I find very confusing. In 1984 he was promoted to 8th in KSB correct. KSB is Kuk Sool Won plus more stuff. At the time he was no more than 4th degree in Kuk Sool. But if he already knew all the material up to 8th, what was he sticking around for back then? He wouldn't learn anything new for many many years. Something doesn't seem right to me.

[Out-to-Lunch]

This is the part that I find very confusing. In 1984 he was promoted to 8th in KSB correct. KSB is Kuk Sool Won plus more stuff. At the time he was no more than 4th degree in Kuk Sool. But if he already knew all the material up to 8th, what was he sticking around for back then? He wouldn't learn anything new for many many years. Something doesn't seem right to me.
Good question, I will give an answer as I understand it.
GM Pak In Shyuk was preparing to develop another art, Tae Keuk Do, which GM Timmerman feels he may have done for financial reasons. GM Timmerman expressed a strong desire not to Change styles, so GM Pak passed the art on to GM Timmerman, with the seals and such, and also gave him a Pal Dan (as the inheritor of the art) it was at this time that GM Pak urged GM Timmerman to register KSB as a TM with the Canadian goverment....GM Timmerman felt it would be a breach of ettiquette to assume to position of GM while the founder was still alive, so GM Pak continued to function as the GM of KSB, when GM Pak died in 1995, GM Timmerman assumed his position as the head of KSB.
So, when GM Timmerman was no longer actively training with GM Pak (who moved and was developing Tae Keuk Do), he wanted to keep studying, and learning with a teacher...So he meets GM Suh, and the relationship began. Remember that he was still using his KS Hapkido rank at this time, not his KSB rank, because he did not assume his position yet, for his reasons of etiquette.

So he entered WKSA as a master I guess, because he was both 5th and 6th dans under GM Suh in Kuk Sool Won.

Now, GM DOES, and DID know the entire curriculum of Kuk Sool Hapkido/Kuk Sool Won, but I assume he joined KSW to see what else he could learn from Kuk Sa Nym, as Kuk Sool Won was modified from Kuk Sool Hapkido...For example, when GM Timmerman first learned Kicho Hyung it only had 5 parts, later after he began to study with GM Suh a 6th part was introduced...
Also Grandmaster credits some of his teaching style from oberving GM Suh...
Personally I know the entire TSD curriculum, however there is always more to learn from those who have gone before, there is always way for improvement under the watchful eye of a qualified instructor.

take care,
--josh

p.s. KSB is Kuk Sool Hapkido with additions from GM Pak...not Kuk Sool Won...the two have many similarities, and are essentially the same, but Kuk Sool Won is currently more soft (almost entirely) from the Kuk Sool Hapkido that was a Yu Kang Ryu (Soft Hard Style)...this is noted by Kuk Sool Wons dropping the more hard style forms, and the favor of palm strikes...Grandmaster has expressed that he feels this is due to GM Suh's outstanding knowledge and technical ability in palm striking methods...KSB still uses both, pretty equally.

[KSW_123]

So he entered WKSA as a master I guess, because he was both 5th and 6th dans under GM Suh in Kuk Sool Won.

I don't think so. He was promoted to 6th with KJN Sims and KJN Sung Jin Suh. I beleive but am not absolutely certain he promoted to 5th with them as well. KJN Harmon was the first western master in KS and he got it in 85.

[Out-to-Lunch]

I don't think so. He was promoted to 6th with KJN Sims and KJN Sung Jin Suh. I beleive but am not absolutely certain he promoted to 5th with them as well. KJN Harmon was the first western master in KS and he got it in 85.

I was not sure on the details of this particular part. So, I looked it up, In the 60's and 70's GM was promoted to 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, dans (certificate # A-6011) in Kuk Sool Hapkido, these were the certificates that came from Korea and were signed by GM Suh In Hyuk and countersigned by GM Pak In Shyuk.
You are correct, he was in the class of KJN Sung Jin Suh, and KJN Marlin Simms..in the TKD Times article he has a picture being promoted with these folks to 5th dan WKSA (Kuk Sool Won), and in 1996 he was promoted to 6th dan WKSA (Kuk Sool Won), at the Houstan Gala, I believe.
In any case Grandmaster was promoted by GM Pak In Shyuk to 8th dan (Kong Shin Bup TM) in 1984 (certificate #106). In 2004 Grandmaster was promoted to 9th dan by GM Seo In Sun, and Kong Shin Bup TM was officially recognized by him. His relationship with WKSA in an official position began in 1989, which lasted until his resignation in 1998.

So, as I understand it, and I will confirm this with Grandmaster, he entered Kuk Sool Won using his Kuk Sool Hapkido rank, because he 8th dan in Kong Shin Bup, also it would probably not be good for WKSA if he entered as an 8th dan, and was all the sudden "senior" in North America anyway outa no where to the current WKSA folks. Also he did not assume the position of GM of KSB until GM Paks passing in 1995, although it was given him in 1984. Grandmaster was one of the, if not the only one who learned the entire KSB curriculum as taught by GM Pak, and it included the entire KukSool Hapkido curriculum with GM Pak's additions.
take care,
--josh

[Fu_Ling_Yoo]

So, as I understand it, and I will confirm this with Grandmaster, he entered Kuk Sool Won using his Kuk Sool Hapkido rank, because he 8th dan in Kong Shin Bup, also it would probably not be good for WKSA if he entered as an 8th dan, and was all the sudden "senior" in North America anyway outa no where to the current WKSA folks. Also he did not assume the position of GM of KSB until GM Paks passing in 1995, although it was given him in 1984. Grandmaster was one of the, if not the only one who learned the entire KSB curriculum as taught by GM Pak, and it included the entire KukSool Hapkido curriculum with GM Pak's additions.
take care,
--josh


I find this statement absurd, neverminding Master Harmon, but even if he was a higher rank "on paper", I know many people who wouldnt think him senior. From what I remember of his demos and some of the workouts he was in attendance, there was always some excuse on why he couldnt train, I believe it was his back. If I remember correctly many of Masters have trained hard and done so with injuries. CKJN Byung In Lee(Hip), KJN Harmon (wrist and ankle),KJN Simms ( dont remember his exact injury) are just a couple who I remember training whilst hurt. I consider him a con-artist and its laughable to hear his name and "grandmaster" in the same sentence. Just my opinion, you dont have to like it.

[Out-to-Lunch]

I find this statement absurd, neverminding Master Harmon, but even if he was a higher rank "on paper", I know many people who wouldnt think him senior. From what I remember of his demos and some of the workouts he was in attendance, there was always some excuse on why he couldnt train, I believe it was his back. If I remember correctly many of Masters have trained hard and done so with injuries. CKJN Byung In Lee(Hip), KJN Harmon (wrist and ankle),KJN Simms ( dont remember his exact injury) are just a couple who I remember training whilst hurt. I consider him a con-artist and its laughable to hear his name and "grandmaster" in the same sentence. Just my opinion, you dont have to like it.

Well you are correct in that it is an opinion, everyone has one...sort of like mine being also it would probably not be good for WKSA if he entered as an 8th dan, and was all the sudden "senior" in North America...it is my opinion that this was the case, plus officially it was a KSB rank, not KUk Sool..
GM Timmerman severely injured his back in 1983, and still has problems because of it flair up every now and again. However, I have seen GM Timmerman's technique, and there is no doubt in my mind as to his ability in pugilism. I find him to be a knowledgeable, skilled, humble, and approachable practicioner, and as my signature notes, I am a proud member of his association. I have no issues with any other Kuk Sool masters, I have no reason not to respect them, in fact GM Timmerman speaks very highly of KJN's Sung Jin Suh, Byung In Lee, Harmon, and Simms...

You can consider what you will, and think what you will about the con-artist bit, however, I now for a fact that this is not the case. He is one of the few martial artists I have had the pleasure of encountering that will go above and beyond to make sure you as a practicioner are growing, and getting what you need. In NKMAA if we have an issue it can be directed to Grandmaster and consider the problem taken care of...His fees for services are quite low actually...for school owners and practitioners alike.
He only charges $35 per person for his seminars (promoters sometimes add a fee to help recover expenses), and he offers free training at HQ for all out of town black belts. He runs non-profit school where dues go to paying the overhead...NKMAA certifications cost less than any organization I have ever been a part of starting at $150 for first dahn...You can say what you want about his skill, or whatever else, however to call GM Timmerman a con-artist is an outright untruth.

best wishes,
--josh

[Fu_Ling_Yoo]

You get what you pay for.

[CKJNstudent]

Josh, I have to admire your restraint and patience in your response. I don’t think I could be so cordial in my response if someone said such negative things (con-artist?) about my KJN.

I know almost next to nothing about GM Timmerman. What I have read is mostly negative things which I believe stem from his departure from KSW. I think that departure is why he gets so much flack from many people. Just based the little I’ve read about him, he appears to be a very accomplished martial artist, a trait that would never be among those of a con-artist.

[CKJNstudent]

You get what you pay for.
That is a very inexperienced statement. I would guess were not born before 1985. Nothing could be farther from the truth. You will learn that someday :)

[Out-to-Lunch]

Josh, I have to admire your restraint and patience in your response. I don’t think I could be so cordial in my response if someone said such negative things (con-artist?) about my KJN.

I know almost next to nothing about GM Timmerman. What I have read is mostly negative things which I believe stem from his departure from KSW. I think that departure is why he gets so much flack from many people. Just based the little I’ve read about him, he appears to be a very accomplished martial artist, a trait that would never be among those of a con-artist.

Hello,
I just like to think of it as an exercise in martial arts ettiquette, which GM Timmerman strongly emphasizes. Most people that have all the negative things to say about GM Timmerman are those who dont know much about him, or simply have heresay. I believe your outlook on the situation to be 100% accurate. In all human relationships there will be ups and downs...it is a simple exponent of the said relationships; it's just sad when it has to come down to criticism, and mud slinging, especially from folks that simply have had not any interaction with the party they like to sling mud at. GM Timmerman is a respected figure in the world of KMA, it seems that the only folks (largely) that have a problem with him are folks still in with WKSA...

take care,
--josh

[3rd Eye]

GM Timmerman's skill level and knowlegde base seems to be a bit of a mystery to me. Does anyone have any (recent) demo clips of GM Timmerman? I have heard of some old WKSA demo clips of GM Timmerman doing techniques, but I don't recall seeing him do forms, breaking, weapons etc. What kind of instructor is he? How affective is his teaching styles? Does he have any direct students that have excelled outside of his group and earn praise from the general public?

[SaBumNim]

GM Timmerman's skill level and knowlegde base seems to be a bit of a mystery to me. Does anyone have any (recent) demo clips of GM Timmerman? I have heard of some old WKSA demo clips of GM Timmerman doing techniques, but I don't recall seeing him do forms, breaking, weapons etc. What kind of instructor is he? How affective is his teaching styles? Does he have any direct students that have excelled outside of his group and earn praise from the general public?

I trained at a school where he was for awhile. It wasn't bad, he never much trained us though. I remember him teaching me maybe 1 or 2 techniques.

One thing I do remember was that even then there was much controversy around him, more so stemming from his relationship to a much younger martial arts student of his.

[3rd Eye]

Doesn't GM Timmerman do semniars around the country. I know he was at the Arnold Classic a couple of years ago and is often seen in pictures at GM Seo Workshops.

[KoreanWarrior]

This is the part that I find very confusing. In 1984 he was promoted to 8th in KSB correct. KSB is Kuk Sool Won plus more stuff. At the time he was no more than 4th degree in Kuk Sool. But if he already knew all the material up to 8th, what was he sticking around for back then? He wouldn't learn anything new for many many years. Something doesn't seem right to me.

I think a time machine was employed? :love:

Typical history re write.

Also his seminars are 6-79 dollars. FYI

KSW_123 I think you just nailed it. Reminds me of " A few good men"

"If you orders are always obeyed then why the transfer?"

KAFFEE
Then why the two orders?
(beat)
Colonel?
(beat)
Why did you--




JESSEP
Sometimes men take matters into their own
hands.

KAFFEE
No sir. You made it clear just a moment
ago that your men never take matters into
their own hands. Your men follow orders
or people die. So Santiago shouldn't have
been in any dangor at all, should he have,
Colonel?

[JSun]

Col. Jessep: Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Whose gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinburg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago, and you curse the marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know. That Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said thank you, and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon, and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

:cool:

I love that movie

[ember]

Maybe I shoulda said this last weekend, but can I mention that we are WAY :topic: ?

Far as I know, GM Timmerman has nothing to do with Master Sim's UMSF.

[3rd Eye]

I agree we are off topic. Has anyone any new information on the UMSF or Master Sims?

[Out-to-Lunch]

GM Timmerman's skill level and knowlegde base seems to be a bit of a mystery to me. Does anyone have any (recent) demo clips of GM Timmerman? I have heard of some old WKSA demo clips of GM Timmerman doing techniques, but I don't recall seeing him do forms, breaking, weapons etc. What kind of instructor is he? How affective is his teaching styles? Does he have any direct students that have excelled outside of his group and earn praise from the general public?

I know we are off topic, but I need to address this...
I have studied martial arts for 13 years under some awesome instructors...GM Timmerman's knowledge base seems to be just as vast, even more so than most instructors I have met...He has a great level of skill, having seen some of his more recent demo work...I will see if some video clips can be put up soon, I know this is in the works...

GM Timmerman is well known to be a great teacher, actually his teaching style IS the best I have ever seen...he uses illustrations, and easily caters his material into a presentation that is suitable for the level of the audience...he recently taught a large seminar in Florida the was mostly TKD folks, and his seminar format made great sense, and Im sure the content was memorable, and easily recalled by those who payed any bit of attention...I am most impressed all around, thats why I am a member of NKMAA.

if any one has further questions, please email me, or PM me here...if I dont know the info I will direct it appropriately to get an answer.

take care,
--josh

[3rd Eye]

Thanks for clearing that up Josh...I would love to see some video clips on GM Timmerman in action.

[ember]

I know we are off topic, but I need to address this...


Not a problem, threads regularly get off-topic... I just was hoping for two things:

1) I suspect our UMSF members would feel more comfortable if we started a different thread specifically on your/Timmerman's organization. I'd hate for someone looking for information to get confused from this thread drift.
2) I'd like it to be a civil and productive discussion. Talking about differences in styles / techniques / curriculums is an EXCELLENT use of the forum. Slamming a student's instructor... seems to me to get into "Cream of the Crop" territory again. We wouldn't study under someone if we didn't think they were good.