Hardest Techniques to do! [Archive]

JKN_RSM

24-Aug-2005, 01:19 PM

A good way to learn jumping spin kicks is to start off by practicing just the jumping and spinning motion without throwing your leg out. If you are going to kick with your right leg make sure when you jump that you tuck your left leg up when you jump as it helps your kicking leg to get a better range of motion. Let me know how it goes.

Wolf

24-Aug-2005, 02:25 PM

1) The backflip over your partner performing the technique in Yahng Sohn Mohk Soo 10
2) Too Ki 7. I can do it, it's just still a bit awkward usually.
3) The Jul Bong technique where you cross your arms around the front and swing the Jul bong behind your back and catch it on the other side. I can never quite reach far enough across my body to catch them.

spacefuzz

24-Aug-2005, 02:37 PM

Spinning back kicks, I always telegraph and get hammered when I spin around. So I just stopped using them. :D

Other than that I usually seem to mess up z-locks. yeah yeah I know its simple but im dyslexic so tend to do it backwards, lol.

AZeitung

24-Aug-2005, 03:18 PM

Serious answers please!

But there is a Haduken in Go Geup Hyung. I've never actually gotten the fire ball to shoot out either, though.

ember

24-Aug-2005, 03:39 PM

Too Ki # 13, although I have been thrown on it once and did fine.

JSun

24-Aug-2005, 04:30 PM

Right now I'd say I have the most difficulty feeling the lock on Eui Bohk Soo #7.
I understand the principle behind the Maek Chi Ki and Maek Cha Ki, but I think it's going to take years of practice to really hit those points the right way. Problem with that is no one want to let me punch and kick on them unless we're in class :D

AZeitung

24-Aug-2005, 05:36 PM

Ki Bohn Soo #1. Somebody try to use it in grappling. Really - see if you can ever get it to work on anyone in a live situation.

baubin2

24-Aug-2005, 08:08 PM

Ki Bohn Soo #1. Somebody try to use it in grappling. Really - see if you can ever get it to work on anyone in a live situation.
Isn't it supposed to be the hardest technique though?

Of the techniques I already know, 2, 4, and 13 Ki Bohn Soo, 6 Ah Sohn Mok Soo, 9 and 12 Eue Bok Soo are particularly difficult for me. There are some kicks in Maek Cha Ki where I cannot reach the target, but that's a height problem, not a technique problem.

Anyway, right now I'm having a ton of trouble with Joon Maek Magi Ki Bohn Soo. I "know" 1-8 (by which I mean I have been shown them and have practiced them a few times), and am hopefully going to learn the other seven soon. But the problem is not just that the moves are new and I haven't practiced much, it's also that I find Joon Maek Magi hard to differentiate from regular Ki Bohn Soo. Hopefully that will disappear as I practice them more though.

ember

25-Aug-2005, 01:30 AM

For 1-7 I know of three major differences:

First, Ki Bohn Soo is from a standing position, Joong Mak Maga Ki Bohn Soo is usually against the kick-punch (step back & block)

Second is the circular motion to move from the block to the technique. This depends on which block you do. I was taught 1-7 as X-covers, and ~9-15 as somagi covers. On the X-cover, ideally the hand closest to you will be pointing in the direction you want to go (front or back of your partner).

Third, all of the falls for Joong Mak Maga are "supposed" to be hajen nak bubs. Ki Bohn Soo has hajen, back fall, front fall, etc.

(I didn't start doing Joong Mak Maga that way, am still figuring some of the hajen's out.)

You should already know that the attack on 8 is a soo do (although the technique *can* be done against a punch).

<snip>
Anyway, right now I'm having a ton of trouble with Joon Maek Magi Ki Bohn Soo. I "know" 1-8 (by which I mean I have been shown them and have practiced them a few times), and am hopefully going to learn the other seven soon. But the problem is not just that the moves are new and I haven't practiced much, it's also that I find Joon Maek Magi hard to differentiate from regular Ki Bohn Soo. Hopefully that will disappear as I practice them more though.

ember

25-Aug-2005, 01:33 AM

Did you see our discussion on how to do it? If you're trying to raise their arm in a circle instead of spiralling yourself around it, then it won't work against an unwilling opponent.

If you spiral yourself around/under it, you've got a better chance. I won't guarantee it, I know I need more practice.

Ki Bohn Soo #1. Somebody try to use it in grappling. Really - see if you can ever get it to work on anyone in a live situation.

justinksw

25-Aug-2005, 01:04 PM

Ki Bohn Soo #1. Somebody try to use it in grappling. Really - see if you can ever get it to work on anyone in a live situation.

Our teacher showed us an 'effective' use of KBS #1 where someone puts their hand on the top of your head to hold you back (sort of like the tall person holding the short person at bay while they swing wildly). She just grabbed the hand that was on her head and did KBS#1 on him. The point being the element of surprise. Who would expect the little guy to take out Andre the giant while the giant has a hold of his head.

In a pure grappling situation, it would be useless. In MOST situations it would be highly unlikely to see it done. :)

justinksw

25-Aug-2005, 01:10 PM

Second is the circular motion to move from the block to the technique. This depends on which block you do. I was taught 1-7 as X-covers, and ~9-15 as somagi covers. On the X-cover, ideally the hand closest to you will be pointing in the direction you want to go (front or back of your partner).

I was taught praying mantis cover and grab for JMMKBS# 1-3, and X-cover for 4 & 5. This has been very difficult because of the precision you have to have. It is VERY difficult to try and grab a fist flying straight at you with one hand via praying mantis method. Practice, practice, practice....

AZeitung

25-Aug-2005, 01:13 PM

Did you see our discussion on how to do it? If you're trying to raise their arm in a circle instead of spiralling yourself around it, then it won't work against an unwilling opponent.

If you spiral yourself around/under it, you've got a better chance. I won't guarantee it, I know I need more practice.

I was the one who first brought up not raising the arm, actually.

AZeitung

25-Aug-2005, 01:16 PM

I was taught praying mantis cover and grab for JMMKBS# 1-3, and X-cover for 4 & 5. This has been very difficult because of the precision you have to have. It is VERY difficult to try and grab a fist flying straight at you with one hand via praying mantis method. Practice, practice, practice....

I was taught the praying mantis grip as well.

For Maek Chigi 12 and 13, were you taught to go into cat stance or to step back completely?

JKN_RSM

25-Aug-2005, 02:20 PM

For Maek Chi Ki 12 & 13 I was always taught to step back completely.......I know KJN John Watson teaches it this way and if you've ever experienced his techniques then you will not argue with him.

I guess it all depends on how commited the person doing the kick punch is....I know people that have to quite literally jump back due to the person lunging at them rather than just a short step in. Just like every technique you should practice on as many different partners as possible cos not everyone moves the same speed or way. Remember REPITITION is the mother of all skill. For any technique to become second nature and to work in a real situation it has to be practiced thousands of times.

justinksw

25-Aug-2005, 03:44 PM

For Maek Chigi 12 and 13, were you taught to go into cat stance or to step back completely?
I was taught to step back completely.

JSun

25-Aug-2005, 04:26 PM

It is VERY difficult to try and grab a fist flying straight at you with one hand via praying mantis method.

Not to mention that most of the street fights I've been in don't involve too many straight punches. Most average Joes always shoot for the the haymaker and advertise a huge hook. Generally their punches are wild and arms are flailing. Quick question...does anyone ever practice Maek Chi Ki with a partner who is actually trying to punch but wearing hand gear? We don't ever do that in class, and it seems to me it would help by simulating a real straight right coming at your head.

KSWDragon

25-Aug-2005, 04:48 PM

Not to mention that most of the street fights I've been in don't involve too many straight punches. Most average Joes always shoot for the the haymaker and advertise a huge hook. Generally their punches are wild and arms are flailing. Quick question...does anyone ever practice Maek Chi Ki with a partner who is actually trying to punch but wearing hand gear? We don't ever do that in class, and it seems to me it would help by simulating a real straight right coming at your head.

why practice with hand gear? a real straight punch on the street won't have gloves on (if this is what you meant)! Just make sure your partner does a proper punch - there's no point doing it without a real punch. It's not going to hurt any more by doing that! ......unless you don't block it :D

Part of these techiques is to make sure that your partner is striking realistically so that you can get used to blocking!

'spose i'm quite lucky as i get to practice techniques outside of class a lot. we mix it up a bit so that it's not just straight punches. As mentioned before the average joe is gonna swing with a haymaker! so it's good to practice like that sometimes.

JSun

25-Aug-2005, 05:34 PM

why practice with hand gear? a real straight punch on the street won't have gloves on (if this is what you meant)! Just make sure your partner does a proper punch - there's no point doing it without a real punch. It's not going to hurt any more by doing that! ......unless you don't block it :D

Part of these techiques is to make sure that your partner is striking realistically so that you can get used to blocking!

I guess I should clarify what I ment. Most all of people in my class do the front kick/straight punch setup at a less than realistic speed. I'd like to work on the techiques with a training partner trying to seriously clock me, but not worry about missing any teeth if they do. I'm not afraid to get punched in the face, it's happened plenty of times before :) I think students are seriously mistaken about competently defending themselves by grabbing a punch at the end of the arms extension with a Sa Ma Gi unless they practice it realistically. I understand the concept of the step back and block, but I guarantee I could nail most people in the class if I kicked/punched like I was trying to knock their block off. Lots of bag work = quick hands/feet :D

AZeitung

25-Aug-2005, 06:35 PM

JSun

25-Aug-2005, 07:34 PM

The best way if you're looking to add some realism, I think, would probably be to have someone throw a bunch of combos, then at an indetermined time, throw in the kick punch, and keep going if you don't successfully defend against it. A technique can feel like second nature in practice, but in sparring, you might never be able to close the appropriate distance when that combo is being thrown, or react quickly enough to take advantage of it (not to mention most people, even if they do TKD, don't just stick their arm out like that and then freeze).
I assume you're speaking of free sparring, right? There is a strict no contact rule for students holding a belt lower than brown/black at our dojang. It's a good idea, though, about working from some combos. Might try it with some of my friends @ the house. We generally restrict sparring at the house to kicks and punches then throw the gloves off when we're ready to start grappling. I'm a bit leary of using techniques on my friends...broke one of their collar bones when I executed a hip throw. Anyway, thanks for the idea. I'll put it to good use.

baubin2

26-Aug-2005, 05:00 AM

I guess I should clarify what I ment. Most all of people in my class do the front kick/straight punch setup at a less than realistic speed. I'd like to work on the techiques with a training partner trying to seriously clock me, but not worry about missing any teeth if they do. I'm not afraid to get punched in the face, it's happened plenty of times before :) I think students are seriously mistaken about competently defending themselves by grabbing a punch at the end of the arms extension with a Sa Ma Gi unless they practice it realistically. I understand the concept of the step back and block, but I guarantee I could nail most people in the class if I kicked/punched like I was trying to knock their block off. Lots of bag work = quick hands/feet :D
I know what you mean. Especially when people are new and learning, they don't go as hard as they do when they're more used to it. Then of course, they're used to going easy, so that's what they keep doing. Maybe if you put some strength in your own kick-punches they'll take their cues from you. Failing that, simply tell them to please go a little harder for the sake of realism. Failing THAT, practice with an upper belt. They're always willing to make training a little more realistic. It really is a good idea to get used to a strong kick-punch though. I remember the first time I practiced with Brandon JKN over here, he went so hard that I was actually a little shaken when it came time for me to execute the technique. Too busy thinking "Oh ****, block that!" and "Wow, he's going hard" to keep my mind on what I was supposed to do next.

I don't like So Ma Gi either. X-block is much more practical, and much easier to execute.

ember

26-Aug-2005, 04:42 PM

I was first taught to step back completely. YKJN Choon-Ok Harmon taught me to do cat-stance... and KJN Barry Harmon had us step back completely in seminar.

Best I can say is both are right.

For Maek Chi Ki 12 & 13 I was always taught to step back completely.......I know KJN John Watson teaches it this way and if you've ever experienced his techniques then you will not argue with him.

I guess it all depends on how commited the person doing the kick punch is....I know people that have to quite literally jump back due to the person lunging at them rather than just a short step in. Just like every technique you should practice on as many different partners as possible cos not everyone moves the same speed or way. Remember REPITITION is the mother of all skill. For any technique to become second nature and to work in a real situation it has to be practiced thousands of times.

KSWDragon

26-Aug-2005, 08:35 PM

it really depends on who's attacking and who's defending. People come in different sizes, kick differently, more power, less power etc etc. You need to adjust to the attack at the given time. against some people if you stepped back fully you might not be able to execute the technique properly and vice versa!!

Choiyoungwoo

11-Jan-2006, 06:01 AM

Ju Muk Maga KBS should be thought of as "applied KBS" I have confirmed this with 3 high ksw masters. interestingly enough when I last asked KSN about the "new " JMMKBS right after the text book were made, using the mantis cover and why we don't use X covers any more he replied something like "any way.... everyone busy making" i.e. it keeps everyone busy.

the hae jun fall you see done with these skills now are relatively new. and some are really hard make your opponent do conversely I have recently had these skills done to me by an OLD kuk sool master who made them clear, easy to learn, effective and easy to teach and easy to convert to fighting. WOW what a difference it makes when you stick to the fundamentals

Don't ask........

Choiyoungwoo

11-Jan-2006, 06:12 AM

Not to mention that most of the street fights I've been in don't involve too many straight punches. Most average Joes always shoot for the the haymaker and advertise a huge hook. Generally their punches are wild and arms are flailing. Quick question...does anyone ever practice Maek Chi Ki with a partner who is actually trying to punch but wearing hand gear? We don't ever do that in class, and it seems to me it would help by simulating a real straight right coming at your head.

good point but the gear would only be used to prevent injury. why not practise these skill with other attacks. MCiK MCaK and JMMKBS are only practiced that way because of the dogmatic way people train. I think Jsun has a great idea try mixing it up if you insist on training for "reality" the simulate it see what happens..?!... personally I think it doesn't matter NONE of the ksw techs are meant to be cookie cutter s/d anyway... bridging the gap between formal and functional training should be done with lots of experience and caution the mma guys are pure function most ma systems are mostly formal training and the crossover to functional happens if at all, after MANY years .. don't assume that formal training , like ksw, and functional training like mma are interchangeable, you will not like the result.

KSWsam99

12-Jun-2006, 10:06 PM

Whats everyones top 3 techniques that they find really hard to get to work?

For me its Kwan Juhl Ki because I am not good at joint manipulation but hopefully I am improving

PopeCoyote

13-Jun-2006, 01:44 AM

Mohk Jeul Li Ki 4, 5 and Dee Eui Bohk Soo 23

davefly76

13-Jun-2006, 08:22 AM

Mohk Jeul Li Ki 4, 5 and Dee Eui Bohk Soo 23

what do you find hard about D.E.B.S. 23?

is it trying to break your opponents grip? as i used to have the same problem.

if so, the way i was taught is to grab his/her fist with your right hand (assuming we are doing it textbook way) and roll it in the direction the fingers are curling. they won't be able to hold on for long :D

Dr Doberman

13-Jun-2006, 11:27 AM

I find it really hard to do Kwan Juhl Li Ki's 1-3 on most people with larger hands than myself. I end up supporting their wrist & trying to use strength when I know the only way it will work is good tech. I'm now trying to understand theses locks better so they will work for me. Any advice?

PopeCoyote

13-Jun-2006, 01:53 PM

what do you find hard about D.E.B.S. 23?

is it trying to break your opponents grip? as i used to have the same problem.

if so, the way i was taught is to grab his/her fist with your right hand (assuming we are doing it textbook way) and roll it in the direction the fingers are curling. they won't be able to hold on for long :D

For all 3 techniques, getting the proper grip and hand position on my partners hand. I don't really understand where my fingers are supposed to go on them.

JSun

13-Jun-2006, 04:44 PM

I end up supporting their wrist & trying to use strength when I know the only way it will work is good tech.

Sounds to me like you've already figured out a bit of the problem. Maybe just adjust where you're initially grabing the hand a bit? I find the live hands index finger position on KJK #3 makes a HUGE difference on the effectiveness of the tech.

swntzu

14-Jun-2006, 01:53 PM

Whats everyones top 3 techniques that they find really hard to get to work?

Sohn Mohk Soo 2, Sohn Mohk Soo 3 and Ki Bohn Soo 5 (Partially because it's the only one that will work on my friend, who happens to have no pressure points! :eek: )

These seem to be the only techniques I can apply properly...

swntzu

14-Jun-2006, 02:01 PM

Whoops! Sorry, I didn't read this first post properly. Those were my favourite techniques.

The techniques I find hardest are Ki Bohn Soo 1, Ki Bohn Soo 7 and Sohn Mohk Soo 6.

KukSool

19-Jun-2006, 07:32 AM

1) Spinning back kick. Can't hit the broad side of a barn with it.

2) Kick ups, that thing where you throw yourself onto your feet from the ground. In theory, anyway. I tend to just flop around like a beached whale.

3) Jeung Gohp Oobohk Soo #4, the one where your arm goes between your opponent's legs. I have a tendecy to deadlift my opponent instead of using proper leverage. Which works just fine on lighter opponents but is rather comical when attempted on heavier ones.

With practice, I'm showing improvement on 1) & 3), but not at all on 2).

psbn matt

19-Jun-2006, 09:36 AM

for no2 try doing it facing down a grass hill, this will give you a better chance of achiving the right technique. also kick your legs up at a 45 degree angle, push with both hands, arch your back to land on your feet and don't forget to bring your head up as they are quite heavey and can make you lose your balance if you don't bring it forward.

hope this helps

prowla

19-Jun-2006, 10:04 AM

The hardest for me are spinning kicks, in fact spinning anything.
I just get dizzy!

MIKIO

25-Jul-2006, 11:01 PM

Im only as far as Sohn Mohk Soo 6, struggling a little with the wrist locks in SMS 3 and 4!
Appart from that lovin' em! :D
i love acrobatics and im currently attempting Butterfly twists when knowbody is looking! although it looks more like some sort of pirroette (not sure of the spelling!) that belongs on an ice rink just now! :D lol love doing bio flips, front summies but cant seem to rotate properly for back summies :bang: , practice, practice, practice i guess!

i also like Nak Bub's but seem to perform them better when being thrown into them!!!

ember

26-Jul-2006, 03:14 AM

Update since it's been a while... I think right now Too Ki's #7 & 8, Yahng Sohn Mok Soo #7.

Hardest falls so far are the cartwheels and no-hand hajens, I need more practice.

turk944

26-Jul-2006, 06:55 AM

1) The backflip over your partner performing the technique in Yahng Sohn Mohk Soo 10

I defintely agree on this one, I still remember almost breaking my neck on that one, don't try it if your partner is really sweaty right? :eek:

Also I would have to say Go Gup Uwe Bohk Soo #13 and #14, for some reason I can never get all the way around and under my partner's arm with the belt grab. I've tried to get better at Chun Hwun Bup to get the motion better, but it's going to take some work.

davefly76

26-Jul-2006, 08:39 AM

I defintely agree on this one, I still remember almost breaking my neck on that one, don't try it if your partner is really sweaty right? :eek:

Also I would have to say Go Gup Uwe Bohk Soo #13 and #14, for some reason I can never get all the way around and under my partner's arm with the belt grab. I've tried to get better at Chun Hwun Bup to get the motion better, but it's going to take some work.

i NEVER try and get my partner to flip over my back! it's just too dangerous, i have heard that someone has been severly injured from doing just that.

i pull him on to my back, roll to one side and let him fall on to his feet. then release one wrist and spin under the other arm.

Choiyoungwoo

26-Jul-2006, 02:50 PM

I defintely agree on this one, I still remember almost breaking my neck on that one, don't try it if your partner is really sweaty right?

Actually I believe that exact thing happend in the UK a few years back and the partner ended severely injured or maybe paralyzed, and to make matters worse the instructor had no insurance. A real mess.

psbn matt

26-Jul-2006, 02:57 PM

turk944

26-Jul-2006, 03:46 PM

I agree, we never really did that fall for real, I had a person in my class who could do backflips and he could land that fall. I had landed it a couple of times before, but when me and KSWolf were going through all the falls on all the techniques getting ready for his black belt test was when I fell wrong. Luckily, I came out of it with just a sore wrist (don't ask me why that was the only sore part of me). Can't say I've ever tried it since, maybe some day.

Other than that Go Gup Uwe Bohk Soo 13 and 14 are still the hardest for ME to get to work, I always get hung up on the opponents arm.

ember

26-Jul-2006, 04:16 PM

that did happen over here, and i think i know who the people involved were (no names will be mentioned), and yes the partner did serverly injure their neck, but recovered and is still practercing, i think. and the instructor definatly had insurance, as its impossible to run a school over here and be part of wksa uk with out it.

on the whole, that is possibly the hardest breakfall in the kuk sool technique sylibus to do.

Coyote heard about that something like a month or so ago, when he was practicing. The way we're now taught it, we do the dance thingy, but don't usually try to lift. Instead, we come back around and do more like Too Ki #6.

Wolf

26-Jul-2006, 05:25 PM