Do you want to live? Burglary

[Judderman]

Sky One Thursday 21:00.

Our favourite SAS guy Ryan identifies what is poitive action and what isn't if you discover an intruder in your home.

So the question is, what would you do?

I am a little ashamed to say that I would probably get tooled up and go look around, making noise as I go. I know this from experience, but rationally I would suggest that going tooled up is a bad idea (i dont really want to confront someone if I dont have to) and is very loosely based on the idea that criminals are not particularly brave and will do whatever they can to escape.

So what do you guys think?

[tellner]

Sky One Thursday 21:00.
So the question is, what would you do?

I can't tell you for sure what I would do. But I can tell you what I've been trained to do and what the plans are.

House clearing is a dangerous game. Police don't like to do it with less than overwhelming numbers and lots of armor and heavy ordnance. It's still one of their least favorite jobs. If you wander around looking for trouble odds are you'll find it.

Consider your advantages. If you are in your own home, especially if the lights are off, you know the layout. You know where the obstacles are as well as objects that can be used as weapons. You can wait where you have all the tactical advantages and let him come to you if he doesn't leave. The really good trainers recommend just that. Pick up your favorite tool and your cell phone. Get to the pre-determined safe room. Take up a good defensive position. Call the police.

Of course in the UK the law is mildly insane when it comes to defending yourself against intruders in your own home. It's particularly crazed if you aren't "sporting" about it and use your opposable thumbs to even the odds. Woe betide you if you even thought about using your cricket bat as a defensive tool. I guess they reward blind fear and unreasoning panic rather than considered reflection and reasonable fear. But I digress.

My basic plain is as follows:

1) Let the dogs out. Our older dog has alread driven off at least one attempted burglar (Good girl, Papillon!). If the scumbag is able to get through two good sized German Shepherds he's probably serious. The claim of self defense will carry a lot more weight.

2) My wife and I have a code word which means "General quarters! Prepare to repel boarders!" and another which means "Come help me!" At the first the other will take a pre-determined safe position (there's a couple) with a flashlight, a shotgun and a big knife. First aid kit and fire extinguisher are nearby where they can be found in the dark.

In the second case the hearer will grab whatever is nearest to hand and come running.

3) Call the police. Stay on the phone with them. Make sure that whatever is wearing a uniform really is an officer; we've had home invasion types burst in with police uniforms and equipment in the area.

4) If it's not a cop and it approaches the position "take the indicated action". If the burglar doesn't immediately show total surrender and follow instructions to the letter assume he is about to try and hurt or kill us. Our prepared positions offer enfilade fire with a good backstop, heavy masonry for cover which can stop bullets and decent concealment. And the bad guys have to turn corners while climbing stairs opening doors to get there.

If they appear to be armed or there are several of them or any of a number of other aggravating factors they don't get a chance to surrender. I won't sit there in safety while a member of my family or a guest is at risk. If the bad guy decides to run I won't block the exit or pursue unless he's done something truly heinous and I believe that he will immediately go out and do something else awful. F'rinstance if he's just stabbed three police officers or shot a child he's shown a really exceptional disregard for human life and needs to go down before he murders someone else. If that means using deadly force it's regrettable but important to ensure the safety of other innocents.

If I come face to face with the bad guy or he's breaking through the doorI would probably take vigorous action immediately. Every second wasted is a better chance that I'll end up injured or dead. Any criminal who's willing to do a "hot" burglary - one where he has reason to believe the home is occupied - is a serious threat.

Besides, Oregon law is very reasonable about the use of force against people attempting burglaries against dwellings or attempting violent felonies against the innocent. The last one who came by tried to break into our house at night, when the lights were on, there was music playing, and I was clearly visible. When I told him to go away he was still rattling the door and telling me to open the door. The sight and sound of a shotgun racking had a salutary effect. "Look! It's the Amazing Levitating Bad Guy Trick!" Nothing less got his attention.

I am a little ashamed to say that I would probably get tooled up and go look around, making noise as I go. I know this from experience, but rationally I would suggest that going tooled up is a bad idea (i dont really want to confront someone if I dont have to) and is very loosely based on the idea that criminals are not particularly brave and will do whatever they can to escape.

I'd probably get prepared and wait for legal and tactical reasons. Also ethical ones. I don't want to hurt anyone unless it's absolutely necessary. Going tooled up only makes sense. If someone is willing to come into an occupied home he's probably ready for trouble if not actively looking for it. Criminals aren't "a cowardly and superstitious lot" like Batman says. I'm not going to bet my own safety on the theoretical better nature of someone who breaks the law.

Of course, I'll leave him an out. The door is open. I won't get between him and it. If he decides to run more power too him.

So what do you guys think?

Now you know in more detail than you wanted :D

[Davey Bones]

As I live in an apartment with only one phone line, I HAVE to get up as it's in the kitchen, not the bedroom. Which is usually enough to get rid of anyone unwanted.

But just to be safe, I do keep several small "decorative" knives handy, just in case. They're small enough to hide in the waistband of my shorts if I need to, just to avoid escalating the sitch.

Home is pretty sacrosanct in PA as well, so not too worried there. I've got leeway.

[aikiMac]

A few years ago I would have killed him dead where he stood.
Today I know better. Today I would try to scare him into leaving.

I used to have guns in the house. I don't have guns anymore so shooting him is not an option. (I'm still very pro-gun. I just don't have any.) I have a 7-inch tanto, and in the context of a house fight (narrow hallways, furniture all over the place, etc.) I have sufficient confidence in my fighting skill. The burglar will be in a world of hurt if he touches anyone in my family.

It's not likely to get that far, though. If there's a choice between someone in my family going to the hospital with injuries (including me), and the burglar taking some property, the burglar will take some property every time. There's a difference between courageous and stupid, and I'm not stupid, and I'm never going to value stuff more than myself or my family.

At least, I don't think I'm stupid. ;)

[Davey Bones]

Nope, as I said above, most of the time, they're gonna split upon finding out people are home. They're not dumb enough to turn a burglary into a murder.

[Hiroji]

I guess it would be hard to tell until put in the situation. I think the first thing would be to wake other family members and make sure they are all safe. We all have phones in our rooms too which would help. It would be scary, i mean to confront him. You are no doubt half asleep and the nutter downstairs could be high on drugs or anything, with no regards for your life. Is your DVD player worth your life?. Sure these people are scum and you would like to pop their skulls, but you just never know who it is you may be messing with.

[sliver]

Unfortunetly, perhaps both for me and the would be burgler, home invasions are not at all uncommon here in southern California. If someone forcibly enters my home in the middle of the night, given the overall climate of violent crime here I can not allow my self the luxury of assuming anything other than they are here to do grevious injury to me and my family. That being the case (and the fact I quite enjoy shooting sports) I have a variety of firearms at my disposal at any time within my home. My first choice would be the winchester 1300 short barreled shotgun I keep in my bedroom. Loaded with number six birdshot, and being a cylinder bore, one slug spreads out wide enough to allow me to be as much as four degrees off center at ten feet and still hit them with enough lead to equal the kinetic energy of a .44 magnum slug. Plus, the relatively fine shot is not likely to penetrate exterior walls of the home so it's unlikely I'll accidentally shoot my next door neighbor! This particular gun carries eight rounds, and frankly, if I can't hit them with that, I wouldn't hit 'em with anything. No, I'm not going to wait and ask questions first or give them a chance to pull thier own piece out; in my home they will be hunted down and eliminated like any other dangerous preditor. I realize some will find this moraly questionable. If some left wing extremeist judge decides to throw the book at me for killing someone invading my home, well, so be it, I can live with jail time much better thant I could ever live with the knowledge I did nothing and somene hurt/raped/killed my wife or child.

Now, before everyone lables me a right wing psycho extremeist (i'm not, and no, I didn't vote for Bush either, but that's another thread entirely), please answer me this: If you lived here, and heard about home invasions regularly (in fact one happened to a very close frined of mine, he was held for three days before he litterally jumped out a second story window and ran for help) might you feel the same way?

Also, for those of you planning on defending yourselves with knives, what would you do if the invader had a gun? I realize if you live alone, the question is only of your own safety, so you're certianly entitled to do whatever you want. But, if you have a wife and family, what happens to them once you're out of action, the invader has allready commited one murder and has little else to loose? Just food for thought.

Let's hope none of us ever actually have to face this situation or follow through on these choices.

[tellner]

Knives and guns are appropriate for different situations. At very close range a blade might make more sense. There are also jurisdictions where one or the other will be illegal.

When it comes to firearms I heed the wisdom of my first Silat teacher's grandfather:

"All a gun does is put holes in him so you'll be better off in the knife fight you were going to get into anyway."

"If you need a gun carry two and a big knife. If you don't need a gun carry a .25 automatic"

"Shoot for the belt buckle"

[J-Wo]

The problem in the UK is that guns have been illegal since 1997 (bar shotgun licenses for farmers) so if someone invades your house with an illegally obtained firearm there's really not much you can do.
I know that when Australia banned firearms, burglary there shot up by about 40%, and there were similarly worrying statistics for the UK.
I'm not in favour of the lax gun laws that the US has, but I'd like to at least see some loosening of the laws in Britain.

The case a few years ago of farmer Tony Martin being jailed after he shot two criminals who invaded his home showed how much of a grey area it is in the UK. One of the guys trying to sue Martin for "loss of earnings" (he was a drug dealer) as a result of his injuries was, to me, ridiculous.

[Davey Bones]

Sliver, perhaps it's different in Cali, but in all the years I've been practicing law, I have found that most burglars (a) don't carry firearms because they don't have the balls to use them, and (b) most of them are cowardly enough where they will turn tail and run at the first hint of someone being home.

[Grey Rain]

I know that when Australia banned firearms, burglary there shot up by about 40%, and there were similarly worrying statistics for the UK.

Could you please cite that from a credible source? Cheers.

[tellner]

Sliver, perhaps it's different in Cali, but in all the years I've been practicing law, I have found that most burglars (a) don't carry firearms because they don't have the balls to use them, and (b) most of them are cowardly enough where they will turn tail and run at the first hint of someone being home.

That's why one has to distinguish between "hot" and "cold" burglaries. In the US most burglars enter during the day when people are away at work. They don't want trouble. The ones who come into obviously occupied houses are a different breed.

In the UK hot burglaries are at least as common as cold. Criminologists have hypothesized that it's because they don't think they are in as much danger.

[Kwajman]

Lets see, loud dog (not mean just loud), lots of noise, call the police, and lastly a WWII japanese bayonet in my nightstand. Quite sharp and wouldn't be fun to be on the other end of it.

[J-Wo]

Could you please cite that from a credible source? Cheers.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=15304

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/australia.html

It appears those links have it as "armed robbery", I might have got my stats mixed up. It does have "hot burglaries" at 300% though

Not sure how credible anything on the net is, but googling brings up a ton of the same stats from different sources

[sliver]

Sliver, perhaps it's different in Cali, but in all the years I've been practicing law, I have found that most burglars (a) don't carry firearms because they don't have the balls to use them, and (b) most of them are cowardly enough where they will turn tail and run at the first hint of someone being home.


Quite so BaiKai, as usual, you are a voice of reason. And frankly, for those who would pull a hot prowl, I think just hearing the shotgun chamber (it's quite loud) would be enough to convince them to leave post haste. No one in their right mind really wants to deal with a shotgun in a confined space and at close quarters where there's alomost no missing, and the effects are almost certinaly lethal.

However, what I would be more concerned with isn't a hot burglary (as stated, they probably wouldn't stick around once we woke up) so much as home invasion, a different crime alltogether. Home invasion is usually performed by multiple assailants and they usually are armed. Home invasions enter with the intent usually to rob, but hold the people inside the dwelling hostage while it goes on. There are even cases (one I'm intamately framiliar with) where the assialants "camp out" and stay for a number of days keeping the home's occupants under control the entire time. This crime seems to be getting more common among meth users here in San Diego, though I don't have a good statistic to cite to back that up, so it's just my impression. Either way, the crime is much more violent, agressive and dangerous than the average burglary.

All this being as it is, if someone breaks in to my home I'm not inclined to wait and findout if they actually invaders hopped up on meth or just a nice garden variety burgler who wants to pinch my tv and the loose change in my chouch. If they haven't already left by the time I run into them, well, endangering my family was their own wrong choice.

Please understand I'm not one of these young agressive types who normally talks macho and puffs their chest, or looks for fights, but this is one thing I genuinely do worry about; entering my home in the night is where I draw the line between civilized human being and animal protecting it's young.

As to carrying a knife with the shotgun or in lieu of it, frankly statistics just don't bear that out. If you check out FBI crime statistics (which you can at http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/cvict.htm) the only time where a victim of a violent crime generally comes out better off resisting is when they're armed with a firearm. In cases of both unarmed defense, and knife armed defense as well as a few others they've got statistics on, the would be defender generally was still victimized and generally got hurt worse than those who offered no resistance at all. Add to this the physics and physiology of the particular firearm I'm using: one blast from the shotgun at a range of twelve feet (most gun fights actually occur at six to seven) carries the kinetic energy of four .44 magnum slugs. This would put even someone the size of Dan Severn into hydrostatic shock instantly (read as body shuts down to try to survive and they are no longer a threat). Also, the area of effect nature of the weapon means I'm very unlikely to miss. By the way, a .25 auto would be very unreliable for home defense for a number of reasons. You may want to do some further reasearch on this or better yet take one of the firearms for home defense courses that are offered by most sherrif's departments before you make a final judgement here.

[tellner]

There's a good thirty years' research on resistance to the violent crime of rape. The results are pretty much indisputable - fighting back, even without a weapon, causes a huge drop in the rate at which the crime will be completed.

[medi]

Of course in the UK the law is mildly insane when it comes to defending yourself against intruders in your own home. It's particularly crazed if you aren't "sporting" about it and use your opposable thumbs to even the odds. Woe betide you if you even thought about using your cricket bat as a defensive tool. I guess they reward blind fear and unreasoning panic rather than considered reflection and reasonable fear.

Absolute rubbish. You're allowed to do what the hell you like in your home as long as you believe you are in danger (and you don't need to see a weapon for that to be true), however once you are out of danger you're expected to stop defending yourself. I believe the official statistics from the recent home office 'clarification' of home defense law was that there have been 15 prosecutions of people who used unreasonable force to defend private property (including businesses) from burglars in the last 20 years.

To quote the CPS spokesman, those prosections were cases where e.g. a burglar had been tied up and set on fire. He said he had personally seen many cases where people had stabbed, shot, and bludgeoned burglars and had not been prosecuted.



The case a few years ago of farmer Tony Martin being jailed after he shot two criminals who invaded his home showed how much of a grey area it is in the UK. One of the guys trying to sue Martin for "loss of earnings" (he was a drug dealer) as a result of his injuries was, to me, ridiculous.

Martin shot the burglar in the back from around 30-40 feet as the man was fleeing the property, a fact not often mentioned by the hysterical media. As for trying to sue Martin, well you're allowed to try to sue for anything you like. As I recall the case was thrown out.

Funny that it's the media generally that was making such a fuss about the law siding with the criminal: They are making people unnecessarily afraid to defend themselves in their homes and thereby helping the criminals all along.

[J-Wo]

Martin shot the burglar in the back from around 30-40 feet as the man was fleeing the property, a fact not often mentioned by the hysterical media. As for trying to sue Martin, well you're allowed to try to sue for anything you like. As I recall the case was thrown out.
.

True that he shot him in the back, I'm not sure that shooting someone in the back is necessarily unreasonable force when you have someone invading your house late at night, since they could easily be going to get a weapon or "back-up". I would probably consider it excessive but I've not been in that situation so I'm not sure how I'd react. I would tend to sway on the side of a non-criminal defending his home though.

[Kwajman]

I like the idea of having them accidentally fall down the stairwell seven or eight times....

[tellner]

Hardly rubbish. You are allowed to use tools in self defense, but it is specifically and explicitly illegal to carry something around for the purpose of using it in self defense. Your laws, not mine. That rewards picking up something in blind fear as opposed to making plans and carrying them out in reasonable fear.

[sliver]

There's a good thirty years' research on resistance to the violent crime of rape. The results are pretty much indisputable - fighting back, even without a weapon, causes a huge drop in the rate at which the crime will be completed.

Rape is a very specific case, and yes I would personally agree doing anything in that case is better than doing nothing, I'm going to have to look up how often rape is successfully stopped by an unarmed woman, or one armed with a knife. I'll post my findings here and link to the data, my initial suspicion is it's rare.

[Sgt_Major]

My airsoft rifle sleeps under my bed, that combined with laser, torch and a half naked SP coming down the stairs shouting at the top of his voice "Get the hell out of my house!" would be enough to make anyone run. And I'd have at least one of my daggers in my belt, just for backup. The rifle would be aimed for the face or the groin, neither are pleasant, and at close range they are crippling.

That however is only in the worst case scenario, ie, someone I know is downstairs, or I hear them discussing what they could do to us when they get up. I know one man who woke up to discover the burglar standing over him with a kettle of boiling water, and asking where all the valuables were. In that case I'd tell them, until I got into a better position to defend myself.

My biggest urge would be to scream like a maniac, and make them well aware that I could be mentally disturbed enough to do more damage than I actually am.

[medi]

Hardly rubbish. You are allowed to use tools in self defense, but it is specifically and explicitly illegal to carry something around for the purpose of using it in self defense. Your laws, not mine. That rewards picking up something in blind fear as opposed to making plans and carrying them out in reasonable fear.


You said "in your own home", not carrying a weapon for self defense in public.

If you mean you're not allowed to e.g. keep a blunt instrument handy in case of a home invasion, because that would imply some sort of premeditation, you're just wrong, sorry. If it is in any way illegal, no one has ever been prosecuted for it.

[Grey Rain]

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=15304

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/australia.html

It appears those links have it as "armed robbery", I might have got my stats mixed up. It does have "hot burglaries" at 300% though

Not sure how credible anything on the net is, but googling brings up a ton of the same stats from different sources

Thank J-Wo.

I had a look on the Australian Institute of Criminology (http://www.aic.gov.au/) web site, and after a bit of searching I found this (http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/tandi/ti159.pdf) which does have some nasty figures in terms of firearm robbery going up. However there's just as large a jump in the use of knife-armed robberies. Maybe NZ beat us in the cricket a lot in 96-97? :)
Here's (http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/facts/2004/tab01b.html) another intresting set of data on Unlawful Entry with Intent and Theft. Only has 96-03 but there isn't a huge jump between 96-97.
Ah the most important bunch of numbers to me:
Number of firearm related deaths
http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/cfi/cfi066.gif
http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/cfi/cfi066.pdf

So yeah I think the gun control we had introduced is a pretty good deal.




Back to,

So the question is, what would you do?

Call the cops and wait. If s/he came towards where everyone sleeps then I'd do my all out best to beat the crapsticks outta her/him, with a variety of 'tools' I got laying about. Otherwise loosing a $70 dvd player isn't worth who knows what. Well that's what I would hope I would do, but I'd probably be tempted to confront them either way... stupid me.

[Vanir]

Could you please cite that from a credible source? Cheers.
the Australian Institute of Criminology (http://www.aic.gov.au/stats/)

You'll find with a good search and read that although firearms related offences decreased, violent crime statistics markedly and disproportionately increased in the years following increased gun control.
Humans are violent, they just replace gun crimes with knife and battery crimes because the social issues behind them are not being dealt with, primarily rights in a westminster political system and subtle economic class structuring all mediaeval political systems have inherently at their cores.

As for home invasion, whilst it is "reasonable" to defend one's person and property, there are no specific rights under Australian (or to my knowledge any British Commonwealth or English), law. These are defined instead by powers of arrest, under Section 462(a) of the Crimes Act in my State.
As a burglar is an individual committing an offence in your presence, you have the right to arrest them using reasonable and proportionate force. You do not have the right to defend your "space" from them, as this is droll and animalistic to late mediaeval aristocratic thought which forms the foundations of our legislative documents.

With this in mind I would certainly arrest the activities of a home invader. Depending on the situation this will most likely involve intimidation techniques, but may result in my hunting them through the property.
Unlawful presence upon a property and tresspass are only Summary Offences under English based law however, so one does not have the right to detain an individual who is prepared to leave, regardless if two seconds earlier he was sneaking into your daughter's bedroom with a crooked smile.

[Vanir]

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/facts/2004/fig010.gif
http://www.aic.gov.au/research/homicide/stats/type.gif
Assaults 1999 133,602 Sexual Assaults 14,074
Assaults 2000 141,212 Sexual Assaults 15,630

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/cfi/cfi062.gif

[Topher]

Gonna have to catch a re run of the show as my Sky box is blown :cry:

Me... i have half a snooker cue by my bed. It's not there for self defence purposes, just happens to be a good storage place. I would hesitate to grab it if needed though :D

[Ular Sawa]

The first thing in this scenario is that your house somehow seemed to be a target of opportunity. If burglary while you're home is a possibility then you need to harden your residence as a target with good locks, appropriate exterior lighting, an alarm system, and a big dog. The idea is to make a burglar pick someone else who's an easier target. Can't stress the big dog element enough. No burglar in their right mind will go into a dark house where something large with heightened senses and big teeth is waiting for them. My little angel prevented the neighbor's car from getting stolen last week just by making noise.

In answer to the original thread question, there isn't much of anywhere that I'm at in the house that cutlery is not within reach. I suppose that comes from studying Silat & FMA.

[Hobbitlauncher]

I sleep next to 4 throwing knives I'mf airly good with (playing card at 25-30 feet) and a display stand above my headboard with swords, as well as a lance and a pike leaning against the sides. I wouldn't bother with the swords, but seeing them may be a deterrent, I'd favor first my cell phone, then the reach weapons and the throwing knives. I'd prefer not escalating the situation if possible. When I'm at my dorm I'm not really allowed to have anything but whatever roomie I have at the moment probably has something useful (they always do). If only the reserves let me keep my m-4 at home *sigh*

[Vanir]

Now there's a couple of smart responses worth respecting. Crime prevention and a mobile phone. Nice one guys :D

[tellner]

Rape is a very specific case, and yes I would personally agree doing anything in that case is better than doing nothing, I'm going to have to look up how often rape is successfully stopped by an unarmed woman, or one armed with a knife. I'll post my findings here and link to the data, my initial suspicion is it's rare.

I can already tell you. Back in 2000 my wife and I got a review article published on the subject. We summarized the work to date. Over quite a few different methodologies, variously selected samples et cetera et cetera et cetera the results were pretty much the same.

Do nothing - a little over 90% completion
Beg, plead, try to make the rapist see you as a human being - slightly higher
Fight (unarmed) - most studies showed about a 20% completion rate. One study showed about 40%, but it used rape crisis center records and admitted its bias.
Run, yell - lowered it but not as much as fighting
Combined strategy - lowered somewhat more
Used knife or gun - completion rate statistically insignificant (Kleck, Sayles)

[sliver]

I can already tell you. Back in 2000 my wife and I got a review article published on the subject. We summarized the work to date. Over quite a few different methodologies, variously selected samples et cetera et cetera et cetera the results were pretty much the same.

Do nothing - a little over 90% completion
Beg, plead, try to make the rapist see you as a human being - slightly higher
Fight (unarmed) - most studies showed about a 20% completion rate. One study showed about 40%, but it used rape crisis center records and admitted its bias.
Run, yell - lowered it but not as much as fighting
Combined strategy - lowered somewhat more
Used knife or gun - completion rate statistically insignificant (Kleck, Sayles)


Hardly supprising. As the pro gun rights folks love to say, criminals prefer unarmed victims. Interestingly the Kleck report was one I was planning on referencing as I'm framiliar with much of his work. I don't recall Kleck doing much research on defensive knife use, his work is mostly centered on DGU's or defensive gun use. Could you give me a link to the study that involved defensive knife use? I'd be interested to read it. Also, you don't mention any comparative data between gun and knife, I'm sure Dr. Kleck being as careful as he is with his methodologies would have delinated this, could you give us a reference on it?

For those interested in getting the gist of some of Dr. Kleck's study here's a couple interesting links just for fun:

http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/kleck2.html

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html


for those who just want a sound bite, and don't care to read the studies out there here's a couple intersting excerpts from a study published by the Northwestern University School of Law:


In 83.5% of successful gun defenses, the attacker either threatened or used force first -- disproving the myth that having a gun available for defense wouldn't make any difference.

In 73.4% of these gun-defense incidents, the attacker was a stranger to the intended victim. (Defenses against a family member or intimate were rare -- well under 10%.) This disproves the myth that a gun kept for defense will most likely be used against a family member or someone you love.

In over half of these gun defense incidents, the defender was facing two or more attackers -- and three or more attackers in over a quarter of these cases. (No means of defense other than a firearm -- martial arts, knives, pepper spray, or stun guns -- gives a potential victim a decent chance of getting away uninjured when facing multiple attackers.)

Source: "Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun," by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz, in The Journal of Criminal Law & Criminology, Northwestern University School of Law, Volume 86, Number 1, Fall, 1995

[scorpiousmac]

Probably take the mick as there is not a lot for them to take.Seriously though as I live on my own in a flat and have never had a previous problem I dont really think about it.I have various tools floating about in prime locations but under english law would end up in big trouble for using them so what else is left.I'm a fairly big bloke with a bit of a temper so I guess I'll just take my chances and hope for the best :cool:

[NewLearner]

Our game plan is as follows:

The two older kids have bedrooms on the other side of the kitchen. (Important because refrigerator, stove, as well as additional plumbing and counters block direct line from the master bath.) They go to the oldest kid's bedroom in an emergency. The room has two escrima sticks, an aluminum softball bat, a land line phone and a cell phone.

The youngest kid's bedroom has two escrima sticks and is connected to the master bath as is our bedroom. My wife, son, and myself go to to the master bath where a cell phone is always left to make calls and I can bring the two .357's with hollow points in from my bedroom. Only my wife and I have the combination to remove the keys from the portable lockbox.

This puts lockable doors between us, in the master bath and the one bedroom, and anyone else. We have a managed alarm system, so if it goes off, the person setting it off will have the police called automatically. The only time it went off, we had two sheriff's cars here within 3 minutes.

[sliver]

Not a bad plan at all NL. Glad to see some have put realistic thought and preplaning into this. An alarm system, especially one with a panic button is a nice added layer of security on top of what others have mentioned about making your house a hard target. Not sure what your youngest would really do with the escrima sticks though? Be well.

[NewLearner]

Although he is 11, he is about 6' and 175 lbs. Besides taking lessons in TKD, the whole family, including him, has also done some work in escrima. That is just the only good weapon I can think of for him to have available that he could use if push came to shove. The real goal is for everyone to have something available that they can use to protect themselves without anyone needing to. The combination of the alarm system and the cell phones and the ability to lock doors is where the main security comes from.

Thanks for the compliment.

[StoneDog]

There's a good thirty years' research on resistance to the violent crime of rape. The results are pretty much indisputable - fighting back, even without a weapon, causes a huge drop in the rate at which the crime will be completed.

This may be a bit off topic, and I am certainly no expert, but the rapist generally feeds off of the fear the victim exhibits. Angry and agressive responses coupled with retaliation were recommended by at least one "expert" I heard. Sorry, no links or doc. to back it up.

As for what to do in a burglary (not home invasion). If it's at night I grab a tactical flashlight and my Sig Sauer and check outside the bedroom door. From their I can see my childrens' bedroom doors and down the landing to the front door. The light is sufficiently bright to very temporarily disorient someone, so I'm shining it downstairs. If it's reasonably clear that the perps are not upstairs w/ me, the wife and the kids then I stay there to protect the staircase while the wife calls 911. If someone is upstairs, well, all heck is going to break loose.

Having said all of this, my 8 year old sleep walks at least 3 times a week. My first reaction when I hear something late at night is to reach for the tactical light and just leave the Sig in its place.

Jon

[tellner]

It seems almost everyone has the same basic plan:

1) Get everyone to a safe room
2) Gather tools and phone
3) Call the police
4) If the bad guys don't come after you don't go after them
5) If they come after you open a can of whoop ass on them

[Apotheosis]

Remind me not to break into your house tellner...

As for the question, where I live it is burglary is unlikely, a very high percentage of the population has guns(hunting,skeet shooting,etc), and knives. But if it did happen,I would call the police, and let my dogs go have fun. The robber isnt going to be able to do much against them unless he/she has experience fighting off dogs, and has some protective clothing.And if that fails..well we have a few shotguns, I figure I will grab one of them, and follow the dogs..chances are thats all it will take. Of course if for some reason there is a gang of organanized criminals..I will probably be dead before I even realize it.i

[Judderman]

Firstly a couple of apologies. Firstly the series is called "How Not To Die". Second, if you've not seen the show, look away now.... (sorry Homer :D)

The advice came in 3 parts. 1) Prevention. 2) Confrontation. 3) Discovery.

I'll discuss 1&2 as they seem most relevant at this point.

On being confronted by an intruder (which for the sake of arguement is believed to be a burglar) the advice was to calmly and assertively allow the individual to leave. The problem with direct confrontation (eg picking up a weapon and challenging) is that you now represent another barrier to escape. All a burglar wants to do is escape and will do anything to do so. The idea is not to panic as this is the last thing the burglar want, given that they will be in a similar state of mind.

On hearing an intruder the advice was, as many have already stated above, lock/barricade yourself in a room and contact the police, preferably as loud as possible. If you are unfortunate enough to not have a cell/mobile/cordless/available phone in the room you were in and are caught by the intruder, the advice when told to put the phone down was just to drop the phone. The call should still connect to the emergency services and they can still hear the situation unfolding.

In all cases direct confrontation was a seriously bad idea. At the end of the day all you have heard is that there is an intruder, not how many intruders. So not worth the risk. Other snippets of advice was asking what they want, if nothing else it might give you a chance to talk you way out.


On the Martin case highlighted above. Whereas I doubt few would state he was wrong in defending his home, especially after so many burglaries, what is also not reveiled is the fact that it wasn't just one blind shot. He apparently shot and then went after them, continuing to shoot. This is no longer self defence.



Some interesting ideas about whether an intruder would be armed and indeed what motives an intruder has....

[tellner]

Thinking back to the 70s Wright and Rossi (a couple very innovative criminologists) did a bunch of interviews with prisoners. Now, normally prisoner interviews are very unreliable. After all, honest people don't usually end up in the joint for burglary and armed robbery. But when you ask a whole bunch of different ones in a lot of different places and they don't have anything to gain by lying to you the results can be useful.

Across the board there were three things that most discouraged these guys from targetting a house:

1) Bright lights and noise
2) Large, loud dogs
3) Homeowner with a gun